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The Find Out Podcast
Find Out: How Republicans Are Killing Due Process
01:12:22
Republicans aren’t just changing laws — they’re dismantling the very principles that define America. This week, we break down how due process is under attack and whether Democrats have finally found a way to fight back, even without the votes.
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- [00:01]
Tim
Hi, everybody, and welcome back to the Find out podcast. Episode six. Lots and lots of really bad things this week and last week and also some hopeful things as well. I think we're going to kick this one off talking about probably the number one news story in the country right now, which is the mistaken deportation of a man named Abreu Garcia and the fact that Senator Chris Van Hollen from Maryland actually went down to El Salvador and got to meet with him and frankly, gave us a proof of life to know that he was still alive. And I think that's where we're going to start this conversation. I think we are starting to see how Democrats can fight back without the legislative powers. So let's talk about this. So, guys, what do you think of Chris Van Hollen's trip down to El Salvador? Effective. Not effective.
- [00:55]
Zach
I love it. I think it's great. I mean, it's like the only thing you could possibly do is go down and be like, okay, this guy is alive, and clearly there's not a hindrance to moving his alive body from El Salvador to the US So what are you guys going to do? The Supreme Court said do it. I think it's a fantastic move.
- [01:12]
Chris
I think it shows the world that America is not lost. I mean, yes, Donald Trump, Elon Musk, and the rest of them are, you know, part of the executive branch, and they are supposed to represent us in foreign affairs. But there's a long history of, you know, the legislative branch ensuring that we are meeting our commitments to other countries, to human rights and to people with protected status, whether they are American citizens or otherwise. So I think this was a really positive sign, and I hope that that is the feedback that Democrats are getting because we need to see more of this.
- [01:50]
Rich
Yeah, I absolutely agree. I. A line came to mind that I had forgotten about that was antagonizing. I heard from, from somebody I admired several years ago. She gave a presentation on why it was better to do something poorly than to do something than to not do something at all. And the, you know, the thinking is like, hey, if you're just, if you know, something needs to get done and you're a perfectionist or you don't know how to start, you feel, you know, imposter syndrome, just do it. It is better to do it poorly than to not do it at all. And, you know, you look at Chris Van Hollen, you look at what, what we, our people have been saying over the last few months, which is, it's not enough. What are we supposed to do? You know, we're all looking for this, like, consolidated leader. We're looking for a silver bullet. And Chris Van Hollen, who's just a Democratic senator from a Democratic state, he's not super senior. Nobody really, you know, not everybody knows who he is, looked at a whole bunch of bad options and said, you know what? I'm going to get on an airplane and I'm going to go to El Salvador. I have absolutely no guarantee anything will happen here. And he got rejected. The first day the headlines were, El Salvador rejects American President, American or American Senator. He's denied. And the second day, he meets with him and he gets a photo. And now, I mean, that guy's wife for, I think, coming up on three, four weeks, didn't know that, that he was alive. And so this is a huge win for human beings. It's a, it's a political win. It ended up being, but he didn't know it was going to be a political win. He didn't go down there trying to score points. He went down there to just do anything, and it ended up working. And I think that's, it's such a powerful reminder that Trump isn't the only one with the cards right now. I mean, because Trump, he's the one who said, there's nothing I can do. It's out of our control. And Chris Van Hollen is like, the hell it is. And he goes down there and he meets with him and he gets a, and he gets a photo and he proves that we still have, we still have cards to play.
- [03:49]
Zach
That's the part I don't understand, though, is like, Trump says he can't do anything while paying them, Right? And then like, Bukele or whatever says, like, I don't have the authority. And it's like, if this senator can just in two days go and meet with this guy, what is the holdup? And I think that's what the Democrats have to do next is like, okay, our guy went and saw this. He's alive. He can easily be brought back. We, what are you doing? What is the actual physical holdup to do this? Because the Supreme Court said do it. Like, I, I, I literally haven't heard a good explanation. That's the thing that is the most flabbergasting to me is like, Trump said He's like an MS.13 member, which he's not.
- [04:29]
Luke
Yeah.
- [04:30]
Zach
Like, what is it?
- [04:31]
Luke
Here's what I think the holdup is. It's not like a good thing, but either one of two things. They know he's got A fucking horror story to tell when he comes back. Because, I mean, it was dystopian as hell for me to see him sitting there in brand new clothes, like the way down. Like, that's. That's not a good sign for me. And if they bring him back, they know that this. Oh, we have the power to do it, is out the window. Like, nobody is going to listen to that anymore after they've watched it get overturned.
- [05:00]
Tim
Yeah, I think the. I. I think what Van Holland did here, which I think is great, is just expose that for the. That it is. If they wanted him back or they. They could get him back. They're paying El Salvador millions of dollars a year to do this. And I mean, let's be honest, Trump can make El Salvador's life miserable if they didn't do something that he wanted. And all you've got to do is look over history of what. How the US has treated Latin America. To be honest, like, you know, when we didn't like Manuel Noriega, we just went in and removed him. We've done a lot of COVID shit. I'm not saying it's all good or bad, but, like, the reality is if we want to get him back, we could. And what Chris Van Hollen did here, which I think piggybacks off of what Cory Booker did, was show as. As you all are saying, we. There are levers to pull here. And public opinion is really the one that's the biggest. And if you pay attention to the news at all, all you've seen over the last day we're recording on Friday is Chris Van Hollen sitting with. With him everywhere, and it's not looking good for them. And the other part that I want to dive into is just the sort of racism around categorizing him as Ms. 13. One of the reasons there's this. There's this. All the right wingers are saying, well, there's these two cases where they, like, caught him with a bunch of ms.13 members. Do you know why they said that? It was based on how he looked. It was based on the shirt that he was wearing. Now, that's racial profiling. That is not evidence. And, you know, I think. Right, yeah, something like that. It wasn't like a shirt that said I am a member of MS.13 on it. Like, you know, it didn't.
- [06:34]
Luke
Chuckles Kirk talking about how, well he couldn't name a bul member that's not Jordan. And it was like, okay, dude.
- [06:42]
Tim
Yeah. I don't know if I could right now. I could Name all of the guys on the 96 team, but I don't think I could name a single one here. So it's like. But you also know, like, it's just nonsense. So I think we're dealing with a lot of these pieces that they don't want him back. But I think this, to me, is a very positive sign. The Democrats are starting to get that what we want is for them to fight.
- [07:05]
Chris
Yeah. And I think it's also important for us to keep in mind that one of the things that almost got buried by this particular story was the fact that Donald Trump was talking about how he wanted to deport homegrown people, which. Which is insane. They are. They are going to the Supreme Court to fight about what birthright citizenship is. They're trying to repeal not just case law, but an amendment of constitution that was. That was passed after the Civil War to ensure that. That black people who were formerly enslaved were treated as citizens. That. That is how deep they are going into the territory of racist white supremacy. It's. It's not just about immigration. As much as they might try to say it. It is entirely about white supremacy.
- [08:05]
Zach
I think the hardest part, too, is, like, right now, it's like a few cases, right? It's not enough for everybody in the country to get all up in arms. And unfortunately, the only way for people to truly start paying attention, the people in the middle, especially the Republicans, who kind of held their nose and voted for Trump to start actually going, okay, wait a minute, this is crazy. Is for more of this to start happening. Because as it stands now, it's a terrible set of cases, but it's like three people. It needs to be like, 3,000 people. And then it's like, oh, my God, then we can turn the tide on everything. But I think, like, Trump, of all people, being the PR obsessed person he is, understands that line and kind of is a master of treading it to the point where, like, didn't go too far. See, look, I can just. I can torture this guy, this guy, and this guy, but as long as I don't go to that guy, I'm fine. He's playing that line incredibly well. I just wonder, is he getting an appetite to cross that line soon? Because he knows he has so much power? Because, like, the Supreme Court point, he's willfully ignoring the Supreme Court. That's never happened. Like, what is the enforcement of, like, yeah, you hold him in contempt. What are you gonna do, throw him in prison? He's the president. There's really no Mechanism. Right. He's immune. So, like, that's where I start to get worried where it's like, yeah, Trump's treading this line. He does that forever. That's what makes Trump so good at avoiding trouble. But if he's in this position where he goes, I can just ignore the Supreme Court. This is pretty cool. What's the next thing? That's the thing that keeps me up at night.
- [09:26]
Tim
So let's, let's dive into that because this is. A lot of people have said this, and I think it's absolutely correct. We are in a constitutional crisis here. Supreme Court almost never rules nine zero. Like, there is such ideological, I'll say diversity on the Supreme Court that, you know, you'll see some seven twos because Alito and Thomas are the most activist judges probably on planet Earth. So they always tend to splinter off from the majority of the group or you will have a 6:3 because of the conservative liberal split. 9:0 is rare. And it was very clear. I know they gave the him some outs. But what, yeah. What is the consequence for a president that willfully ignores one third of our federal government and our checks and balances? And I don't know the answer so far, Jack.
- [10:15]
Chris
We heard the interpretation from Discount Goble, Steve Miller in the White House. He said that actually the nine zero decision was unanimous support for the Trump position. Like he is rewriting history.
- [10:32]
Luke
People don't know how to read like.
- [10:34]
Chris
Goebbels in real time. And, and there is a significant port part of our population who are believing this. And, you know, people have, you know, thought that I've been hyperbolic, talking about the rise of fascism and the, the parallels with National Socialism, with Nazi seeing today. But this is how it happened. There is a historical record. This is not hyperbole. It is not exaggeration. It is a white supremacist standing in the White House in front of a press briefing, in front of the President, reinterpreting a crystal clear 90 case against the President, saying that it says the opposite of what it says. That kind of gaslighting is very, very dangerous for us.
- [11:23]
Zach
That's precisely why I'm worried about the set of circumstances we face now. Because when you look at this situation, he is in a position where he can essentially do whatever the fuck he wants and rewrite the script. Right. So, you know, I just, I look at this and I go, I think that, like, the problem is we've been trapped in this realm of hyperbole for a long time. We've been warning people about Donald Trump for 10 years now and saying, okay, this is going to be, this is where it's going to cross the line. This is where it's going to cross the line. I think we've finally arrived at that point where it's like, no, this is actually where he could cross the line. It could go from potentially hyperbole. Because I thought that too. I thought for a long time, like a lot of these concerns about Trump were hyperbolic. Like, he's not actually a fascist or white supremacist. He's just like a power hungry dude who understands the bounds of what he can and can't do. But I think at this point, he's sort of set the table so perfectly between the immunity ruling with the Supreme Court, this mandate. He thinks he has the way that his people, like Stephen Miller are handling these sorts of rewriting of narratives. He has everything he needs right now to actually change this from hyperbole to real life. And that's like, for me, I'm not an alarmist or anything. Like, I'm the opposite. I'm usually very cautious to use this hyperbolic language. I'm looking at it and going, now we're pretty much there. We're like one step away from it being real.
- [12:43]
Luke
People need to remember that Auschwitz wasn't in fucking Germany. Like, Right. There's a lot of parallels to Shoot. And all these goddamn constitutional fundamentalists that are out here all can't infringe on our, our rights. Yeah, here's your chance to prove it, dude. Like, if, if they could take due process from someone, they can take it from you.
- [13:03]
Tim
Exactly. And, and don't forget, you know, and I hate mentioning his name because usually the rule is when you mention Nazis, you've lost. But I think in this case it's relevant. Adolf Hitler was democratically elected, and I think people forget that.
- [13:16]
Luke
What did it take him 54 days to dismantle it?
- [13:19]
Tim
It wasn't long. And he rode a nationalist wave in the wake of, you know, the punishing penalties that the, the Allies gave to Germany after World War I. Right. They basically were, were, you know, taxing them into oblivion.
- [13:36]
Zach
Yeah.
- [13:37]
Tim
Which obviously was clearly not the right way to do that. And, you know, so there are, there are similarities here.
- [13:43]
Zach
There's a key difference, though. That's a, because I've hear that narrative a lot. And it's like Hitler did actually, like, for the first order of business he had was to actually try to fix the economy because he got, you know, elected to do that. And then Once he did to a certain degree, that's when the whole country was like, okay, whatever Hitler wants, we'll go with it. And it gave him that momentum. So Trump really kind of needs to have, if he wants to be the next Hitler, he needs some success before everybody's gonna go, oh, whatever Donnie wants. Like, not doing very well. Well, no, that's the thing that's scary though. Like, if he does do well, like if somehow turns around, I am legitimately, like, the parallel is perfect. Then it's like, okay, everybody's going to go with whatever he wants.
- [14:20]
Rich
I think the. And this is where I'll walk us back. Because I'm also an anti alarmist. I have kids. I can't have this be the next Nazi Germany. And I will. And I think, I think, you know, you remember 75 million, a million, 75 million Americans voted for Trump. Maybe 30, 40% of those people would be enthusiastically in support of some sort of much worse scenario. I think the overwhelming majority, including members of my extended family, would not be in support of him going into those areas of extremism. We also have an additional 230 million or so Americans who didn't vote for Donald Trump, either kids or people who just didn't vote or who voted for Kamala Harris. So I think even in his heyday of support, he's already missed the boat. Congress is, I mean, the Supreme Court just ruled nine to zero against him. I mean, nine to Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito voted against Donald Trump. And now they're taking up this birthright citizenship case, which every single lower court has issued absolutely scathing rebukes of. Donald Trump's defense case law supports them. And obviously it's written incredibly plainly. One of the most plainly written things in our entire Constitution.
- [15:46]
Luke
If it's anything but 9, 0, it's going to be rough.
- [15:50]
Rich
Agree. It has to be 9, 0. It has to be a single majority opinion co authored by everybody. I mean, that's what I'm looking for. And I think you look at the timing, they could have taken this up, they could have announced this earlier. I think the timing lines up in a way that the judicial branch understands that they need to, they need to have their own backs right now. And I think the, for me, the, the big pillar that is outstanding is, is Congress. And I, I think the thing that's the most maybe positive here is that congressional leaders have to get reelected in 20, 20, 26. All of the House, and they are on this, they're at this point right now where they're looking at town halls, they're looking at what Trump's doing, they're looking the Supreme Court looking at coast to coast pushback from the educational community. The tide has already begun to turn on Trump. And so now they have to decide are we going to, are we going to go against the momentum of all of these institutions that this country relies on, including Wall street now, including Elon Musk, or are we going to somehow find this contorted way to stay on Trump's coattails, even though Trump will never be on the ballot again? And I think they're going to pick, I hate to even say it out loud, but I feel like Congress is going to look at their own self interest and pick the right side of history and Trump will back away from the cliff because he won't see it in the cards.
- [17:15]
Tim
I hope you're right. And if there's one thing that's true about Congress, is that every member of Congress cares about themselves and their self preservation more than anything else. And so I think you're right. I think all of the early signs of a monstrous blue wave in 2026 are already percolating. I mean, we have Republicans coming out, not a lot, but some Republicans coming out and saying, I made a mistake. That is powerful. These, these rallies and these protests that have been organized, and I know, Chris, you're working on one for June 6, are going to be more power for the people. And I think the combination of the Democratic senators and Congress members waking up and realizing it's time to fight, plus an erosion of even 5% of his support is deadly. He did not win the majority of the vote in 2024. Let's remember, more people who went to vote voted for somebody else when you factor in third parties as well. So there is no mandate here. He was at his absolute peak on November, what, 6th, 7th, 8th afterwards, and he had, I think, a three month window. And all he has done is so chaos and disorder, screwing his own voters. You know, farmers getting kicked in the teeth because of these tariffs for China, which are still there and other countries. Our housing market is about to be in massive crisis because we're not going to be able to build anything because we don't have the goddamn materials to do it. And it's, it's, I think you're right, Rich, that his time has come. But we also need to talk about what do, what does this opposition need to do now to make sure that that continues?
- [18:57]
Zach
Well, I think one thing I want to say is like, I think we need to recognize what the other side thinks of this. At the same time, because we're saying all this in our silo of like, how we see Trump, people who voted for Trump, even the ones who are not like MAGA crazies, they like what Trump is doing. So, like, we, we look at this and we hate it. And we have clear reasons as to why we hate it. But I would argue that probably the majority of people, like close to 99%, if not more of people who voted for Trump are happy with their vote right now. And it's a simple reason why. It's because Trump is doing something. That's it. It's not because he's doing something. Well, it's because he's doing something. And like, I agree with everybody here, like, you know, when all this stuff that he's doing falls flat in its face, it's going to potentially result in a blue wave. But in the short term, we need to recognize that the other side is happy with how this is going and they're not just happy because of the details. They're happy because is just politics working faster and people love that shit. So Trump can really. That's a huge hand for Trump to have. Even if a lot of this stuff fails, Democrats can't underestimate how much value that brings to Trump's argument. And we have to figure out a strategy, to Tim's point, of how we attack the fact that, yeah, okay, maybe you did like, modernize political bureaucracy. Right. That's really what he's doing. But just because you're modernizing it and speeding it up doesn't mean you're doing a good job. And we have to find a way to toe that line and get people who voted for Trump to recognize that speed does not mean good.
- [20:23]
Chris
Yeah, I think that Zach is exactly right. You know, I. For folks who don't know my background, this is Chris. I'm the investigator. I spend most of my time and I have a team that does nothing but look at, like, extremists in this country. And I think that Zach's framing, I, I want to kind of put it into something that more people might be familiar with. Remember, if you're old enough, unlike Luke, if you're old enough to remember 911.
- [20:54]
Luke
Things I'm not old enough for.
- [20:55]
Chris
Right. If you're old enough to, to remember 9 11, you remember how the entire country was, was kind of racist. Like, like it was, it was, it was really mainstream. Right. That kind of attack against our country, like, really turned people into their Worst selves. It's across the political spectrum, the right has been inundated with so much anti immigrant propaganda, with, with, you know, images of children and women being abused or murdered or tortured, etc. Etc. Right. So the way that the right and a broad swath of the right, I'm not saying maga, I'm saying a lot of Republicans and frankly some Democrats and some independents, they look at the so called immigration problem with the same passion of a desire to cause harm to the bad guys as the rest of America did in the days, weeks and months and years following 9, 11 I think it took, I mean I was a Republican as a kid. I was a Republican when I joined the army, went to Iraq, came home, home. I stayed a Republican in support of the wars for several years despite losing friends, like literally friends dying, friends getting hurt and maimed in the wars. I didn't turn against the wars until 2007 or so, six years after they started and two years after I got home. I think that it is going to take just as long and just as much trauma to shake Republicans from their belief that immigration is inherently akin to terrorism. Because that is the framing that Donald Trump has been using for 10 years and that is the framing that Republicans and a lot of, a lot of independents like him for.
- [22:57]
Tim
Well, it's the, it's the media ecosystem that they have created that they actually do not see another side at all. Like you can go your entire life never seeing any content from our side and not even know it. So it feels like it's so obvious to them that these things are happening because they are being told a false story. Like for example, this thing about undocumented workers creating all this crime. Undocumented workers create or commit crimes at a quarter of the rate of an American citizen quarter. So if you're worried about crime, you need to be worried about the American public and not undocumented workers. And like you're saying that, you're saying.
- [23:36]
Luke
That the right attacks marginalized groups with completely inflated few points.
- [23:40]
Chris
Really had no idea.
- [23:44]
Tim
Yeah, I mean it's, it's, you know, I, but we also don't do a good job yelling back about that, you know, because they cherry pick and then they tell a horrible story. Right. Like the, the Lake and Riley thing is a perfect example. That is a horrific, horrific story. Horrific. And I, I, I, my heart breaks for that family. But they specifically asked politicians to not use that as a lever. They did not want their daughter to become a political football. And Republicans basically said, fuck you guys. We're gonna do it. We're gonna do it. And. Because it's a great story for them in a vacuum. But, you know, like, if you look at the amount of murders every year committed across the country, and you look at how many of them are from undocumented workers, it's such a tiny fraction. But it's what Fox News shows. It's what Ben Shapiro shows. And they all just see these, and they always have.
- [24:31]
Zach
Always.
- [24:32]
Tim
The photos are always them, like, menacing. You know, maybe they even darken the photos to make it look like that's worse. But I think we need to be screaming louder about how amazing it is to have these people. Also, from an economic perspective, like, we don't survive without them.
- [24:48]
Zach
Right. I mean, the reason the strategy they use to get to this point is so impressively smart, because what they essentially did was take an issue that doesn't actually affect almost anybody in the country very much and make it feel like it affects everything about your life. And that's the thing that I think Democrats have to attack is sort of like honing in on people going, what actually in your life is being affected by illegal immigrants? Like, I. I've never met a single person who can tell me, like, a horror story about a crime or a job they lost or whatever happens.
- [25:19]
Luke
Not one.
- [25:19]
Zach
It doesn't happen.
- [25:20]
Luke
They've got their entire voter base looking over their fucking shoulder. There's one of these, you know, illegal immigrants. They're back there and get me. And it's fucking despicable.
- [25:32]
Rich
They did the exact same thing with. I was looking up the name this Patty Morin or Marin. She. She was a mother of a victim of illegal immigrant crime that they Trump paraded across the Oval Office in front of all the cameras as at the same time that Chris Van Hollen is generating headlines with Abreu Garcia, because that's their approach, is you're defending a brown person. But look at this other person whose daughter was attacked and killed by a. By a brown person. Since all brown people are the same, why are. Why are you guys defending murderers and rapists? And it's so disingenuous. I think the opportunity. These are horrific crimes, and so I use the word opportunity very, very carefully. The opportunity to defend humans in this scenario where they're playing against each other is by just articulating the difference that, like Abreu Garcia, he actually doesn't appear to have anything that he's ever done that was wrong. And.
- [26:42]
Luke
And that was the crazy part. Pam Bondi shared that whole, oh, this is the case and it says right at the top, no criminal history. What the fuck are you talking about?
- [26:52]
Zach
Can you read?
- [26:53]
Luke
No, they can't.
- [26:54]
Rich
Just to finish on this. So Trump picked this turf for this battle with the courts because he thought it was friendly turf. He thought if I, if I pick a battle with the judicial system over illegal immigrant criminals, that is the one issue he thought I can't possibly lose on. And so for it to blow up in his face on the first swing, you know, this is not a political football. These are human people's lives and they're treating it as such. But you know, they picked that battle and so for it to backfire. I think that this is an important moment in the debate over are illegal immigrants humans? And it's not a debate. I thought that we would, would be able to not, not win, but even have a leg to stand on. And it turns out that we have an opportunity now to talk about how humans are, are actually humans 100%.
- [27:45]
Luke
It's a conversation we shouldn't have to be having. Yeah, right.
- [27:49]
Rich
At all.
- [27:50]
Tim
Well, let's, well let's, let's, let's pivot a little bit to us going on offense because I think after Senator Booker and Senator Van Holland and AOC and Bernie have all showed that like if we stand up and, and push back, there's a lot of support for that. So Luke and Rich, why don't you let us know what you're going to be doing early next week on this on this topic.
- [28:14]
Luke
We're going to A. M. To meet up with Chuckles Kirk.
- [28:18]
Rich
Well, not meet up with.
- [28:19]
Luke
That's the wrong way of phrasing it. There's a whole big ass group of us going down there to be an opposition movement against Charlie, Charlie Kirk at Texas A M. So for those of.
- [28:29]
Tim
You who don't know, Charlie Kirk, who runs an organization called Turning Points USA is basically the con conservative student outreach branch of the, of the system. They are very well funded. And Charlie Kirk, you know, this 30 year old dude goes to college campuses and records him tooling on students because that's clearly a fair fight. And so, and not even, not even like it's completely, not even really winning.
- [28:57]
Luke
Yeah, it's, it's, it's just gross.
- [28:59]
Tim
But anyway, so what, who are some of the people that are going to be with you and what are you hoping to do?
- [29:06]
Luke
Well, Rich and I will be there or, you know, that's cool. And Dean Withers and Parker are going to be there and who else is going to Be there, Rich.
- [29:16]
Rich
Well, Z is the. Is one of the main organizers. Geez, I'd have to pull up the. It's funny because we're using signal chat to communicate.
- [29:27]
Luke
Yeah. There's been a lot of military secrets that have been dispensed through the shared or.
- [29:33]
Tim
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:34]
Luke
So far off the wagon's gonna be there.
- [29:36]
Rich
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:37]
Luke
There's like, It's. There's like 35 different influencers coming. There's a shitload.
- [29:41]
Chris
So are you guys going to be streaming on Tik Tok while you're down there? What's. What like, do you know the logistics of how it's happening?
- [29:47]
Luke
I think somebody will be streaming the whole thing.
- [29:50]
Tim
They've got to.
- [29:51]
Rich
I think, I think probably seven or 12 or 15 people at all times will be. Will be either live or shooting videos. The, the approach is. It's kind of hilarious because of course Charlie Kirk is coming into university campuses because that's when kids are, you know, at this moment. And I was there taking all my poli sci classes. I had all the talking points that I read directly from books and no practical knowledge, no life experience to, to correct. You know, being a privileged white dude in a white university, I had no practical knowledge to corroborate my viewpoints. And that's the perfect time for somebody like Charlie Kirk, who is not a. He's not a person who's lived any of this. He is a very polished policy debater. And coming from a debate family, I see all of the things that he does as. They're just parlor tricks. It's just debate 101, 201, 301 rolled all together and just puked back. And so he sets these kids up with impossible questions, impossible debates where he's got all this institutional knowledge and he knows the mind tricks and he just makes them look bad and it's really embarrassing. And he won't take questions from, from older people because anybody who takes the mic who isn't 12.
- [31:06]
Luke
Yeah, here's. By the way, before this all happens, here's. Here's my prediction on what's going to happen next Tuesday. There's going to be like three of us that actually get to debate him. And then he's going to go, that's enough. No more. And then, then he'll stop taking questions from people who are with us. That's my prediction. I think Parker and Dean are going to get to go and maybe one other guy.
- [31:28]
Chris
So what I think is really cool about this campaign, the. I think it's called the UN AmeriCorator Tour. Yeah. So the Unfuck America tour is to my knowledge, like the first real organized attempt to reframe the narrative against what Charlie Kirk has been doing, largely unopposed since 2012. It's been 13 years that this guy has been getting paid by right wing billionaires to go spread propaganda to agitate, try to cause conflict on college campuses all around the country. And ultimately, the work that he has been doing for the past decade plus is part of the reason that we're seeing Donald Trump so successful in attacking institutions today, creating this perception that colleges and universities are brainwashing kids. Charlie Kirk has been serving as, as the, the guy gathering, you know, what looks like raw intelligence of how.
- [32:30]
Tim
Which is crazy.
- [32:31]
Chris
Far left. It is. Right. And projecting.
- [32:33]
Luke
Because Charlie Kirk is a community college dropout.
- [32:35]
Rich
Yeah.
- [32:36]
Chris
And he's really.
- [32:37]
Tim
I didn't know that.
- [32:37]
Chris
Projecting into the Fox News, you know, ecosystem. So all of these old people who watch nothing but conservative media truly do believe all of the terrible things that they say about their, our colleges and universities. I am heartbroken. I. I graduated from Columbia University with my undergrad in 2020, not that long ago, and I've watched that, that school to be first in line to capitulate to authoritarianism. And that is contrary to everything that I learned on that campus. It is a shame. And it is a true sign of authoritarianism, like on the march and, and gaining victories.
- [33:26]
Zach
Yeah. I mean, it's as simple as, like, the more, you know, the less likely you are to become a Republican. That's why.
- [33:31]
Luke
Crazy how that works.
- [33:32]
Tim
That's why they go after them.
- [33:33]
Chris
Yeah.
- [33:33]
Zach
It's the simplest in the world. Like, no, no, you want to get educated. That's a terrible idea. Don't do that.
- [33:38]
Tim
I mean, I want to keep you dumb.
- [33:39]
Luke
They want to keep you broke and they want to keep you pregnant.
- [33:42]
Tim
Right.
- [33:42]
Luke
I mean, that's how the world makes more Republicans.
- [33:44]
Tim
I mean, it's just really funny because I, I mean, I went to a small, a liberal arts school in Pennsylvania, Dickinson College, and I was a political science major. I don't, I did not have a single professor tell me what to think. But the professors were there to teach you about world events and to teach you to think critically and to ask questions. You don't go into a political science class and they're like, here's all the reasons why MAGA sucks. Like, it's just not. But you. It's right. They are attacking higher education because as, as Zach said, the more education that you have, you see a Drop of party affiliation for the Republican Party, unless you're a billionaire. And then it's picked back up because they want the tax.
- [34:23]
Rich
And that's just self interest. That's not ideological. That's just shameless self interest.
- [34:27]
Tim
Just more money, more money. And so it is. But like, when you tell people that that's what colleges are doing of people who didn't go, it's very easy to look and say that's, that's the elite and we want that down. Which is funny because Donald Trump is actually the one that's working for the elite in this country, not higher education.
- [34:46]
Luke
It's always crazy to me that it's a bunch of who higher education. Telling a bunch of people who didn't go to higher education look how much they indoctrinate people.
- [34:54]
Zach
Except me, except me.
- [34:56]
Luke
Except me. I'm better than them, right?
- [34:58]
Chris
What's, what's hilarious to me is that I went to Columbia University. That is the first time that I was required to read the Bible. Really the first. Like, I, I grew up as a Catholic. I did the, you know, the confirmation and all that shit, right? Like, I did the, the Sunday school, whatever it was called.
- [35:17]
Luke
You knew the scores.
- [35:18]
Chris
I did that. But this was the first when I went to Columbia University. Part of the core curriculum that you cannot get away from. Everyone has to study the fucking Bible when they go to these schools, right? That is not required like, anywhere else in life. That is where you engage critically with things like religious text and these foundational texts of philosophy that have, as these guys like to say, created the Western world. Like, the course is called Western civilization that, that you have to take in Columbia University. It is mind blowing to me that Democrats have not been messaging like that and, and said like, okay, like, when are you reading, you know, Greek philosophers and you know, the writings of, of saints that most Americans have. No, most Christians have never heard of, like St. Thomas Aquinas. Like, go ahead, ask Charlie Kirk to give you a quote from him. I bet you he can't.
- [36:20]
Tim
Well, it reminds me of when Donald Trump was asked about his favorite Bible passage.
- [36:24]
Luke
He doesn't have one so much.
- [36:29]
Tim
Which, by the way, all of them is for. And I am the least religious person probably in this group, but all of them actually sets you up for a lot of trouble because there is a lot of stuff that's in there about stoning people and all this. So he loves all that. Which actually, that part, I believe.
- [36:43]
Rich
They, they asked him Old Testament or New Testament.
- [36:47]
Tim
Oh, yeah.
- [36:48]
Rich
If you're a Christian. It's New Testament is the answer. That is the only answer because we don't have to get into the details. He said, I like him probably equally. It's like you don't know.
- [37:01]
Tim
You don't get no idea.
- [37:03]
Rich
It's like, how many testaments are there, Donald? Are there seven? Are there 12? Do you know which, do you know what book we're talking about here? He's like, no, but I'll sell you my version of it.
- [37:13]
Luke
It's made in China.
- [37:16]
Tim
Sells Bibles with his signature on them and he's never read the contents of, of the book. It's just what his religious people tell him to believe, which, you know. Anyways. Well, we had a, we're now like 37 minutes into this. We haven't actually talked about the thing that we, we came in here, which tends to be what happens here. And I should also tell you, we talked. Yeah, we're coming back to it. We're coming back to. But I want to, I just want to tell the listeners that like what you're hearing is, is what happens when we are also off camera as well. And many times we're like, wait, why didn't we record that shit? It's just, just how it sort of goes. But. So there has been a fair amount of talk about whether or not Donald Trump may try to declare martial law because of his ignoring of the courts and essentially his ignoring of Congress and doing so much illegal stuff that people don't even know about. And this has been mostly a thing that obviously people on the left have been sort of worrying about and we've had some people write into, find out to ask us about it as well. So let's talk about it. What do we think? Is he, is he insane enough to do it?
- [38:32]
Zach
Yes.
- [38:32]
Tim
Is it enough?
- [38:33]
Chris
Yes.
- [38:33]
Tim
Yeah.
- [38:33]
Luke
I think you punch it to Chris first. Let him have it. Yeah.
- [38:36]
Chris
So, so I have been developing scenarios for years at this point on, on what this could look like. So not only do I, I like study the far right and, and provide intelligence to like law enforcement for law breaking activity, I study the broader movements and I've become very good. And it's, it is as hokey as it sounds like. I instinctually kind of understand what these movements are going to do before they do it. So I have basically written the scripts to documentaries and movies about this. It is in my opinion entirely within the realm of, of possibility. When we have seen guys like Dan Bongino get Cash Patel, you know, they're, they're now in charge of the FBI. They're. While FBI agents are not just going to do whatever they're told. Like, if the FBI is being dismantled so that they can't combat a growing terror threat, like that can. That can start to, to grow. And one of the things that I want people to kind of consider is when they watch movie, and I didn't watch the Civil War mov movie, but when you skip straight to like, are tanks going to be rolling down the street? You've. You've lost the plot. What I think most Americans should imagine is the trauma that we have all collectively experienced already. We know what it feels like for our economy to shut down and collapse. And that is, that is what it would be like if not even if martial law was. Was enacted. But if our federal government started to erode to the point that, that commercial aspects of our human interaction, our economy effectively shut down. Like, if, if the federal government becomes so incapable of doing anything through sabotage or incompetence, we're talking about shipping containers, we're talking about railroads, we're talking about roadways, we're talking about electricity. All of these things, when they start to fall apart because no one is able to take care of them, that's when the real chaos starts.
- [41:03]
Zach
Yeah, that's a, that's an. I have a question actually for you, because I've thought about this a lot. One of the things that I always wonder is, like, if we get to that point where Trump is, for obviously a very incorrect reason, whatever it's going to be declaring martial law or praising restrictions on people that we're just not at all familiar with because we, we're used to being free, regular people. How much do you think Trump and his administration factor in the public response? Because the public response right now is, you know, everyone, the left is angry, the right is happy. You know, there's people in between who are going to protest, but there's not a lot of action. If this stuff started to happen, I can only imagine that the public response would be extreme. And I can, I think, like, to me, I currently look at it, it as the primary deterrent for the Trump administration to not go forward because functionally they have all the power to do it right now. Like, they could do whatever they want. Like you said, Cash Patel's in charge of the FBI. Trump is ignoring the Supreme Court. Who cares? The only real impediment they have left is that Americans will not like it. So do you think that that is their primary impediment right now? And like, that's the only reason they're not going forward or what do you think about that?
- [42:07]
Chris
I think the primary impediment behind anything when it comes to Trump is, is, you know, what it's going to do to his personal bottom line. I think that's all that he care, all that he cares about is his personal wealth. And what happens to the broader economy or the country does not matter as long as his personal wealth continues to grow. It's not even so much about power. It's power in service of that personal wealth. So I think that is, is the limiting factor. But as far as you know, who he's filled his admin administration with, whether it be Pete Hegseth or Stephen Miller, these folks running the Department of Defense, the FBI, doj, dhs, they are all loyalists to a point that they will do anything to please their master. They will not say no. Now, the, the grassroots federal employees are, are going to put up a resistance for anything that goes overboard. We've seen that with like the Doggy Boys and Elon Musk coming into these agencies. But at a certain point, individuals get scared and they stop fighting back because they're, they want to protect their lives and their livelihoods. Right. So there is this constant balance going on. And you know, federal employees, one third of them are veterans. You know, we mentioned the January 6th protest that I'm helping to organize of veterans coming down to D.C. on the anniversary of D Day to say, hell no, you need to fucking stop. It is going to take mass mobilizations of that kind to give those with remaining legitimate power in opposition in the federal government to get them to actually use. To exercise enough force to stop Donald Trump's attempted complete authoritarian coup.
- [44:07]
Tim
Yeah. I think the mass mobilization thing is a great point and I do. And we've seen it like they do sometimes back off. And I think that, and it though, because those things drive news cycles, it gets more people to pay attention. And I think that we need every, every time there is a protest in your city, please go. You don't have to make a sign, you don't have to say anything, but.
- [44:32]
Luke
Wear a mask if you want to wear a mat.
- [44:34]
Tim
Yeah, yeah, wear a mask like you know it. The numbers matter.
- [44:38]
Luke
Yeah, there's power in seeing like all of the, of Times Square full of people or all of 5th Avenue just completely blocked like 100. There's power there.
- [44:49]
Tim
Yep. And, and that, what, what that does is it makes it so the people who don't pay attention because as crazy as all this is, a lot of People are don't pay attention. These mass mobilizations get people to pay attention. And so they are very important. So if you can go to those, please do. And also, I think we mentioned this on the last episode, but, like, if you have not spoken up before, now is the time that we are, at the moment, there is no more. Well, this could happen or that could happen. We're here and we have three and a half years to go on this. But, I mean, I kind of like to look at it as just like a year and a half till the 2026 elections, because then we could take back the House and grind some of this down. But we have a year and a half to go and the democracy is on the line. I think martial law is probably a bit off for now, and I think that there's going to be strong opposition to it, but you have to stand up now.
- [45:42]
Rich
I want to back up and point squarely at how we got here as a, as a left movement, because to the discussion of martial law, specifically President Trump. I hate calling him that. Donald.
- [45:58]
Luke
I've never called him that.
- [46:02]
Tim
Just call him Donald.
- [46:03]
Rich
He hates the dumpy diaper Donald. It's hard to say, but that's my favorite way to think of him. He signed and executive order instructing his military leaders to assess the, the position of the southern border, the security of the southern border, and come back in 90 days with a recommendation if additional steps are required, including invoking the Insurrection Act. The Insurrection act is from 18. Whatever, you know, 750 years ago, 1807. Insurrection act of 1807. That is not martial law. It is absolutely essential for the people on the left. We've conflated immediately that Insurrection act would be martial law. Insurrection Act, a key difference allows the military to enforce civilian laws. That is what you do when you have. If there were an actual invasion. We're not suspending civilian law, which is what martial law is. We are allowing the military to uphold civilian law. So a critical difference. Also, just looking at the facts, Donald Trump has never said the words martial law that I can, that I can find. So we are, we are exclusively speculating when we talk about would Donald Trump declare martial law? And I don't mean we, I mean the entire left, because we're getting into what is a, what is textbook conspiracy theory. When you start going down the path of this will happen and this will happen and this will happen because we've seen over and over and over again that same thing happened. And it's like Charlie Brown in the football. He Backs away at the last second and he pivots and he talks about building resorts in Gaza or he starts talking about tariffs again, we look like a dumbass. Exactly. And he makes us look, it's just like the rope, a dope. He makes us look like fools because he says, look at these radical left lunatics. They think all of this insane stuff about us, about me, and I don't want to do any of that. So there are a lot of things going on. But I think it's very important to understand that even in this worst case scenario, where on Easter Sunday, which will be in the past by the time our listeners, listeners hear this, if he does declare that the Insurrection act needs to be invoked, that will not be the same as declaring martial law. And even if he then did then go to martial law, we're talking about Congress taking which, which appears to be not even feasible martial law. I'm reading a political fact article about it right now, actually. Even if he did try to go there, Congress can shut that down. Like there's just, there's no appetite for this. He missed the boat, he missed his momentum on the upswing. Like to Tim's point earlier about peaking in November, this is, it's, it's too little, too late. But it's still worth discussing because I do think in an ideal state, he sees himself as an Orban or as a Putin or as a Bukele where everybody obey or, or even Kim Jong Un where everybody just obeys him. Like he very much craves that kind of power. But I think he's also pragmatic enough as a self interested billionaire to understand that some of these paths have already closed.
- [49:07]
Chris
Yeah. So let me, let me talk about one of the immediate threats. We're, we're recording this around noon Eastern on Friday, April 18th. So this could be old news in five hours, but we are expecting to see one or more executive orders come out of the White House very soon, which would target nonprofits, stripping nonprofits of their 501c3 status, which has the effect of creating, making them taxable entities. So the boards, the individuals and the organizations on the boards of these non profits would instantly have taxes levied against them. And, and it could be for some organizations, every individual board member is hit with, with millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions in taxes. That is, it's not martial law. It's not anything close to it. Right. But that is the political targeting of political enemies. And with those tax responsibilities, you know, come deadlines and eventually, you know, you can, you can go to jail for not making those kinds of deadlines for not, you know, disclosing what the federal government demands of you. So you know, while I don't think that the, the gun is at the head of, of the nation in terms of the specific act of martial law and again predicting the future, people are going to be listening to this after by the way, it's Hitler's birthday is, falls on the 90 day thing.
- [50:42]
Luke
Conspiracy theories are going apeshit about it.
- [50:45]
Chris
So it's, it's dangerous for me to predict what's going to happen and you know, in the next few days before we release on Tuesday. But the gun is the, to the head of the most effective defenders, most organized, coordinated defenders of democracy. And, and that is a very real problem.
- [51:07]
Tim
Well and let's, let's be very clear what to people what that means. So this, the, the 501C3 exemption, what that means is essentially for the organizations that you give money to that have the 501C3 designation means that you can write that off as a tax deduction. They are going to be going after these organizations and basically trying to strip that from them. So it's not only going after against these organizations that are putting up a fight, they're also actually increasing the public's tax.
- [51:36]
Luke
Yeah, they're you over too.
- [51:37]
Tim
Yeah. You're getting a, that this is a, this is a tax increase on the American public. And this is the second time that Donald Trump has advocating for raising taxes on the American public. The first time being the tariffs. So this Republican president who is trying to pass a $4 trillion tax cut that's going to help billionaires and millionaires and nobody else else also wants to raise taxes on the middle class and the working class and the poor in this country. And I think that's something Democrats need to be screaming a lot more about.
- [52:09]
Luke
Don't forget about the overdraft fees thing too.
- [52:11]
Zach
Yeah.
- [52:12]
Tim
Oh yeah. So that's the other one that really.
- [52:14]
Luke
Benefits people, the middle, lower middle class.
- [52:17]
Tim
You know, Luke, tell, tell the people what you're, what you're referring to.
- [52:20]
Luke
They pet they. There was a restriction on overdraft fees that they could only be what, five bucks? Something like that.
- [52:25]
Chris
That.
- [52:26]
Zach
Yeah.
- [52:26]
Luke
Gone House Republicans.
- [52:28]
Tim
Because Joe Biden passed it. Yeah.
- [52:31]
Rich
Yeah.
- [52:32]
Luke
Because how dare you know, you limit fees that are disproportionately affecting lower middle class people.
- [52:38]
Zach
Yeah.
- [52:38]
Luke
People who actively run overdraft fees.
- [52:41]
Zach
You know, it's crazy.
- [52:42]
Luke
I gotta make those, gotta make the.
- [52:43]
Tim
Banks the money on, on the credit card fees. That are like 30% in many cases, too.
- [52:48]
Zach
Yeah, it's highway robbery. Part of it is an attack on the, like, what they're trying to do. Like, they're, they're taking away so many things that protect citizens in the name of, like, limiting bureaucracy. Right. That's the biggest problem that we're having right now is, like, the narrative they're pushing is we want to limit the scope and the size of government. It's like, they don't tell you what that means. What that means is you lose these kinds of protections where, like, it's directly affecting you. Like, I'm, you know, I, I'm a former Republican, a lot of it. Because I do believe that smaller government is better in a lot of places. This is not one of those places. Like, you need to protect people when they're going to be just completely screwed over by corporations. Regulations work sometimes. Sometimes they inhibit growth, sometimes they promote growth, sometimes they help poor people, sometimes they hurt poor people. You have to look at it with a fine tooth comb. You can't just take a hatchet and go. All bureaucracy is bad. And that's exactly what they've done. So, you know, it just shows the success of their approach because they're actively, just like in front of people, taking away good things from. They're going, don't worry, it's fine. You got. It's going to be great.
- [53:43]
Tim
Yeah.
- [53:43]
Luke
Like the direct file thing. Oh, yeah. Now you have to pay somebody to do your taxes instead of just being able to do it yourself.
- [53:50]
Tim
So let's dive into this, this direct file thing because I don't think people fully understand it. So basically what happened over the last few years is that a team within the federal government built a tool so that you could file your taxes online directly with the government. And before they put that up there, you had to pay somebody to do it for you. And now Donald Trump has said, no, we don't want that. So he has taken that away. I also have another EO or actually a regulation that just came out today day that they're talking about getting rid of, which is. They're getting going. They're going to propose getting rid of food safety inspections.
- [54:23]
Zach
Oh, my God.
- [54:24]
Tim
That was a good.
- [54:26]
Luke
How can you possibly convince people that, yeah, we're gonna keep your food safe is a bad thing?
- [54:31]
Tim
Right, right. Oh, not to mention that we have these mega farms producing things where salmonella outbreaks happen. Right. Bird flu. Do you know why we know that? That food space safety inspections.
- [54:45]
Zach
Exactly.
- [54:45]
Tim
We would never know otherwise.
- [54:47]
Rich
One of My first viral videos was about the listeria outbreak in lunch meat and got millions of views because people were hundreds of thousands, at least at the time, of views, because people were bookmarking it and sharing it with their family members. Because the USDA discovered through normal inspections and testing that there was listeria everywhere in this meat packing plant and that it was getting out. And that killed a bunch of people. A bunch of people died from listeria infections after that outbreak. And that was just in, I think July or August of 2024.
- [55:18]
Tim
Well, and if you break it down right, take the food inspection, I don't know how much that costs per year, but if you take those out and then you, then that means more people are going to get sick and die, which means they're going to go to the hospital, they're going to use their insurance, maybe they don't have insurance, and then there's going to be a bill. And like, again, as we've said before, slicing these services is not just like, oh, it's not happening anymore and we save all this money, right? We're going to pay for it tenfold down the line and people will die.
- [55:45]
Chris
I can look at myself and my history and remember the way that I used to think and I think of like libertarian me, Chris, you know, Sergeant Chris Goldsmith in, in 2007 or so. And I, I would be like, you know what? I'm, I'm strong. I'm in the, you know, I'm in great shape. I could probably, you know, weather through these illnesses, like, what do I really care? But now here I am around the corner from 40 and I'm five weeks away from having a baby girl and I'm thinking about, if we have to use formula, is that formula going to be safe? When we're doing the normal schedule of vaccines, are those vaccines still going to be available? I have a pickup truck which fits me, my wife and my 190 pound dog, a, you know, nearly 40 pound dog. We don't have enough room in there for a baby seat and we didn't anticipate these, these tariffs coming. So like, we need to do like a lot of American families get a second car, something that we can put a car seat in that, right?
- [56:54]
Tim
Yeah.
- [56:55]
Chris
Like I, dude, I want a picture.
- [56:57]
Luke
Of you driving a Honda Odyssey today.
- [56:59]
Rich
Nazi hunter sticker on the back window.
- [57:02]
Chris
When my wife, wife made the decision that we're going to have kids because that's how it happened, I, from day one, I was like, we're getting a minivan. I was like, and That's, I finally convinced her that the minivan is the good answer. So I'm, I'm all about it. I will gladly drive a minivan, but. Yeah, but for real, you know, bringing it back to, like, I was listening to an NPR interview yesterday where a representative of a, like a small business conglomerate was talking about how of the tariffs on China, things like baby bottles and pacifiers and the bags that breast milk go into, they are simply not going to reorder them because. Because consumers will not buy them at 140% markup.
- [57:55]
Zach
Yep.
- [57:56]
Chris
Like, I'm, I'm coming, like I'm coming into parenthood in the most unstable time to have a, A, a child like in my lifetime. But Chris is wild.
- [58:09]
Rich
You have to remember the upside is that in four or five years your child will be able to work at a manufacturing plant that makes those little plastic baggies and they can work overnight. Absolutely. You don't have to worry about silver linings. You don't have to worry about. Because there will be nobody there to tell you that there are fumes in the air poisoning everyone. So it's great.
- [58:34]
Zach
Your overtime won't be taxed either.
- [58:35]
Tim
And what's crazy. I know, yeah. What's crazy is that there are some red states that are already trying to loosen child labor laws. Florida, because they, because they don't have enough undocumented workers, so now they want to replace them with 14, 15 and 16 year olds. So rich is not that, I mean, we're all laughing about it, but like, it's not that far off.
- [58:55]
Zach
I mean, to me, like the, the, I think I said this in the previous episode, but like, it's a, it's a huge point is that that these sort, it's across just beyond tariffs as well. These broad spectrum moves that are just like completely ignoring detail. They are going to have such unforeseen consequences. Exactly. Like what Chris is talking about. Little details are just completely ignored. You don't understand for, especially for like small businesses and tariffs, just how many businesses are going to just completely go bankrupt. There's going to, people are going to lose their jobs. There's going to be things that are going to cost a million times more money. That's why, like, because people, a lot of people don't understand that like tariffs can be really smart if you target them correctly and you understand the market you're trying to manipulate and why you're trying to do it. But if you just go 60%, it's like, okay, you realize it's 60% on everything. So, like, we have no idea how to manage and figure out is this industry going to collapse or boom, we don't know. And that is extremely dangerous. And it's the same shit across the bureaucracy that he's doing where it's like, what's going to happen when you get rid of these food investigators? How deep is that problem going to cut into the fabric of America? And how hard is it going to be to reestablish the shit that you got rid of? Because you can't just press a button and then thousands of people come back to work. It's not how it works. So it is like right now in the short term, it seems extremely exciting for a lot of people who want less bureaucracy and they want the shit Trump wants. But you fast forward a year or two when you start real, oh, it's going to be so bad. And they're going to go, how did this happen?
- [60:20]
Luke
Does anybody else get like a sick kick out of seeing the I voted for Trump and I have a small business videos and then they're like, oh.
- [60:27]
Tim
I got the best.
- [60:29]
Luke
I can't run anymore. Well, you're getting what you voted for.
- [60:32]
Zach
My farm is going under.
- [60:33]
Luke
I feel bad for 50% of these people, the ones who voted the right way and who knew who were smart enough to figure out the other ones. This is, this is the game you played. You get, you played a stupid game, you're going to win a stupid prize. And look what you did.
- [60:47]
Tim
Luke, are you suggesting that these people fucked around in November?
- [60:50]
Luke
That's exactly what I'm giving.
- [60:51]
Tim
Now they are finding out.
- [60:53]
Luke
Exactly. Get fucked, you bunch of idiots.
- [60:55]
Chris
Well done.
- [60:56]
Tim
Oh, I got the catchphrase in here.
- [60:58]
Rich
They voted for a vibe and they got policy outcomes. Who would have possibly known that, that that could be a thing that would happen?
- [61:04]
Luke
I will sit and kick my feet laying on my bed with a grin on my face reading those comments. These people, oh, I can't run my small business anymore because these tariffs and the comments are just ripping these people a new face hole about. Yeah, look, well done. Like, oh, thoughts and tariffs.
- [61:23]
Tim
What's, what's really interesting though, is that the fact that Donald Trump for the first time is underwater on the economy.
- [61:30]
Zach
Yeah.
- [61:30]
Tim
And the, and what's, what's really crazy is that the effects of what he has done have not been felt yet. There are some estimates that, like, on the tariff stuff, you won't really start to feel it until June because of the amount of time and the backlog of stuff that we've already got. So if he's already in the mid-40s on the economy, which was that number is the reason that he won was he was above water and Kamala wasn't, he's in a lot of trouble because.
- [61:58]
Luke
Tim, are you suggesting that he's, that the tariffs are not going to make us $2 billion a day?
- [62:04]
Tim
You know, I hate to break it to you, Luke, but I don't think so.
- [62:08]
Rich
By the time, by the time Chris is buying those $7 a piece plastic bags for breast milk that pay for those tariffs, like Chris will be contributing at least half of that 2 billion.
- [62:19]
Luke
Yeah.
- [62:20]
Tim
Thank you. Thank you for supporting the, for the, supporting this country. Chris.
- [62:24]
Zach
You know how I know Trump's strategy is he, he, he's worried about what's going on is that he's trying to fire the Fed chair so he can go in and influence the rate. Because that, for people who don't understand why he would do that, like right now, the thing that is the biggest impediment to the economy growing is the interest rates too high. So businesses can't borrow without losing a lot of money. So lowering the interest rate, lowered mortgage rates will change the house, all that stuff will be great. The reason they don't do it is because it will cause hyperinflation or stagflation and it's just extremely economically dangerous to do it, which is why the current chair won't do it. But Trump is seeing that, oh, my policies don't work and I need, need the interest rate to go down to make me look good. I don't care if the long term effect's terrible. I want a short term boom so I look great. That's exactly what he's trying to do. So his next crusade is going to be getting Powell out and trying to replace him with somebody who's going to lower rates regardless of the outcome. And you see it clear as day now. And everybody's warning him not to do it and he's still going ahead.
- [63:16]
Tim
Well, the Treasury Secretary Brissette, who has been a big Trump lackey and has not pushed back on anything, did, apparently he said, went to the Oval and was like, if you do this, the markets will react negatively in a serious way.
- [63:31]
Zach
Yes.
- [63:32]
Tim
We also should remind folks who appointed Jerome Powell as Fed Chair, Donald Trump, 2018.
- [63:39]
Luke
You mean a Trump appointment he wants to get rid of?
- [63:42]
Chris
Yeah, I think there's, when it comes to like the tariffs and the broader economy stuff, I think it's important for us to also mention the like, blatant corruption angle. Like Donald Trump has been making carve outs for his friends and he will make carve outs to anyone who makes his wealth bigger.
- [64:00]
Zach
Sure.
- [64:00]
Chris
Like we, we and I, again, I hope that there are FBI agents who are just doing their due diligence and tracking what's happening at Mar a Lago and the Trump hotels around the world. Because that's what we saw during his first presidency was like the Saudis would rent out an entire floor and leave it empty.
- [64:19]
Luke
I'm still not convinced that the whole Trump coin thing isn't a complete foreign influence money laundering deal.
- [64:25]
Chris
Yeah.
- [64:25]
Tim
Oh, Yep.
- [64:26]
Luke
I'm like 90% sure on, on this.
- [64:29]
Tim
We actually just got some breaking news which by the time you read this you'll be like, oh God. Apparently the head of the IRS has been fired because they were basically resisting against what Elon Musk wanted to do. So it's a, it just goes to Chris's point about the corruption that they are just getting rid of anybody who gets in their way. We also heard that apparently someone in the Trump White House went to the IRS and basically told them to like lay off Mike Lindell, who is the my pillow guy, very much corrupt and like was going through an audit and they were basically like maybe you don't want to do that anymore. That's what's happening in the government right now folks, is that he is currying favor and with for his friends and doesn't give a about anybody else. Sweet.
- [65:13]
Luke
So who wasn't he just instructed the doj. The DOJ to look into to see if they could find any criminal activity.
- [65:20]
Tim
Oh, that was on New York Attorney General Letitia James. He is them after her because she has been a huge thorn in his side. She's the one that went after him on the not why he can't run a non profit anymore, but the Biden.
- [65:33]
Luke
Administration is the one who weaponized the doj. Just so we're all under the same, you know, as we're on the same page here.
- [65:40]
Tim
Right, right.
- [65:40]
Chris
Yeah. And that's, that's why when, when over the past episodes I keep repeating myself, but I think it's worth doing. Talking about prosecuting corruption is a, is a smart stance. Talking about prosecuting Trump specifically, he is able to, he is able to rhetorically turn that against someone. Yes. If, if Democrats make anti corruption, anti oligarchy, anti monopoly, like, like that kind of message becomes a major theme of the next couple of elections. Not only do I think that, that they'll win, but I think that they will have the popular support and the actual mandate necessary to pass reforms for our economy, reforms for criminal law and reforms for, for justice for all American.
- [66:31]
Zach
I think you're right about that. Theoretically, the only, only thing that Democrats have to do on top of all that in order to make that strategy work, which I agree is the right strategy, is to live the life they're saying they're going to live right now. Because like, yes, the Democrats are the better party of the two, but both sides engage in corruption. The left is engaging in a lot of things that are ingratiating themselves and making money, putting money in their pockets. There's a whole donor class of folks that are probably not the best people in the world. They need to rid themselves of whatever vestiges of that is left. They need to be active about how they specifically are going to hurt their own lives. Like putting bills forward, like saying, hey, if you were in Congress, you probably shouldn't be able to trade stocks and things like that anything more. It takes away their power and they can actually functionally show, hey, we're serious about this shit. We're anti corruption, we're anti to making money off of all this. We're going to put the bills forward to prove it. We're willing to put our money where our mouth is and have the vision. Then they win. But if they don't do that first part, they're not going to win. Well.
- [67:28]
Chris
And I imagine Tim might have some idea of how this happens, but like, what that's going to take is Americans getting around the idea of shaping the Democratic Party platform to include those reforms. Like that needs to be a commitment that is made at the next presidential convention.
- [67:47]
Zach
100%.
- [67:48]
Tim
It's 100% right. And I think people need to, I mean, people are screaming about it already, but I think, I think we have to insist on it. I don't want to support a candidate for president that doesn't support a ban on stock trades and also is willing to work with Congress to actually reestablish the equal, equal levels of government so that all three are on the same footing. Congress has given up a tremendous amount of power over the years and it's time to give it back. And I want somebody again, as you said, like, is going to do something that is against their self interest, which is handing over power. I think it's important and I think it will go a long way in convincing non voters to come back that you're not just in this for yourself. I want to restore the equal branches of government. I think is a powerful message. And I want to go after oligarchs or corporations. I think, I think people get corporations more than oligarchs.
- [68:40]
Luke
They don't know what that word means.
- [68:41]
Zach
Yeah.
- [68:42]
Tim
So it's kind of a, well, it's not a very word that we use in the US Very much. Right. So I think whoever picks up that mantle is going to do very well in the Democratic primary next year. Two years, I guess.
- [68:54]
Rich
I, I know we need to wrap. So I want to bring us full circle because I was, I was reluctant to even have a conversation about martial law because it is so one, it's so scary. But also it is, is getting a little close to the conspiracy side of things. But I want to, I want to tie it together with, I guess, a message of inspiration for our listeners. Because if you look through all of the things that we're talking about today, if you look at Scott Besant, who I just caught up on that breaking news, he pushed out, he pushed out Elon Musk's appointed interim director of the IRS because Scott Bessant said this is trash. It happened without my approval. And IRS is under the Treasury Department. And so we're going to put somebody who's not, not an extreme, far right. Elon Musk appointed person in charge of the irs. So we do have these glimmers. You've got Chris Van Hollen going to El Salvador and proving that there is a place for senators to have power. You've got Harvard and you've got all of these different institutions, higher education. They're collectively pushing back. Our viewers are constantly saying, I hate this timeline. I don't know what to do. I feel crippled. I'm so demoralized. I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm spiraling feeling this is working. And this is how we, we, this is how we ensure that we never have to say martial law in a serious sense.
- [70:12]
Luke
Because he is comic book.
- [70:15]
Rich
Exactly. He is, he is seeing resistance everywhere. And the system is designed for us to control it. That is like the entire point of our constitution. This is a living, breathing thing that happens every day because of what we choose to do when we wake up. And so when you're waking up and when you're going to a rally, when you're filming somebody getting tased at a Marjorie Taylor Greene rally, which we didn't cover. When you, when you, you know, share an article, share a. We're, we're controlling the narrative and we're changing the narrative right now. And so the, the reason that we're able to have this conversation about who do we want to see in 2026? Who do we want to see in 2028? These are things that my own viewers are telling me, if we even have an election in 2028, we absolutely will have an election in 2028, because we are collectively going to choose that that will be the case. And I will. So let's back away from the cliff. Let's understand that this is in our hands. It's just very slow and it's a very painful process because of how far Trump has pushed us. But we can still get there and we will.
- [71:15]
Tim
Well, I think that's a good, a good note to wrap up on. And I want to remind our viewers, first of all, thank you for listening. And you know, it's been wild over six episodes to see the community that we are building here. And if you're only listening, we also want you to follow us on Substack because, because we open the chat. Every, every episode there's a chat. You know, we jump in there, we're going to start doing lives. And in fact, I think most of you will probably have heard this before we do this, but Zach and I are actually going to be on Jim Acosta's Substack show on Tuesday at 4pm which is super awesome. And we're working on some other things as well where we're going to be talking about this. But we want you all to come join us on Substack, not just to read our content, but to engage with it. And we're going to talk about how we can fight back. So you can follow us at findoutpodcast subst. That's findout podcast.substack.com come join us. Let's fight back against this and let's make sure that Donald Trump and the Republicans find out in, in November of 2026 what they have done. So with that, thank you everybody, and until next time, thanks for listening.