Find Out: Why democrats can’t ignore the “woke” debate

Summary

The Find Out Podcast: Why Democrats Can’t Ignore the “Woke” Debate
Release Date: April 8, 2025
Host/Author: Find Out Podcast

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I. Introduction

In episode four of The Find Out Podcast, the hosts dive deep into the intersection of recent political activism and the ongoing "woke" debate within Democratic circles. Starting with light-hearted banter about punctuality issues among co-hosts, the conversation swiftly transitions into pressing national topics.

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II. Recent Protests and Rallies

A. Scope and Impact

The episode opens with a discussion on the massive rallies that erupted across the United States over the weekend. Host Tim highlights the widespread nature of these protests, noting their presence in major cities like New York, Boston, Seattle, and even smaller towns such as Farmington, Maine. He cites an estimate from Indivisible, stating that over 5.2 million Americans participated in these protests.

Tim [01:53]: "Indivisible has estimated that over 5.2 million Americans joined these protests this weekend."

B. Nature of Leadership

Vic raises concerns about the lack of centralized leadership in these movements, drawing parallels to the Occupy Wall Street protests. He questions the effectiveness of leaderless resistance, pondering whether the absence of a prominent figure hinders the movement's potential impact.

Vic [02:38]: "Can anybody tell me what it was about? Can anybody tell me who was leading it?"

C. Goals and Local Organizing

Zach emphasizes the necessity for clear, tangible goals within activism. He criticizes the current protests for lacking a definitive aim beyond opposing Trump, advocating instead for localized efforts such as running for school boards and city councils to effect meaningful change.

Zach [03:36]: "Democratic leadership... has to step up and offer some kind of plan as to what this activism is trying to lead towards."

D. Transition to Sustaining Momentum

Tim acknowledges the initial surge of energy from the protests but stresses the importance of channeling this momentum into sustained political action. He highlights organizations like Run for Something that support progressive candidates at all levels of government.

Tim [05:41]: "We have to start getting more people running for local office... the more people win, we will be in a much better position."

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III. Economic Analysis: Trump's Tariffs

A. Immediate Market Impact

The conversation shifts to recent economic turmoil caused by Trump's implementation of extensive tariffs, which led to a significant, albeit brief, market downturn. Hosts express concern over the long-term effects of these tariffs on the American economy.

Tim [15:33]: "Trump tried to stop all federal spending... We are starting to see some people..."

B. Trump’s Economic Strategy

Zach dissects Trump's rationale behind the tariffs, suggesting that Trump believes tariffs will bolster American manufacturing and generate government revenue. However, he criticizes this approach for overlooking the detrimental effects on small businesses and overall economic stability.

Zach [17:35]: "He thinks as a job creator, he's only creating jobs in the manufacturing sector, which is worse than service."

C. Personal Financial Impact on Hosts

Hosts share personal anecdotes about the financial losses incurred due to the market crash, illustrating the real-life consequences of Trump's policies.

Chris [18:52]: "I just lost $30,000. Jesus."

D. Broader Economic Consequences

The discussion extends to the broader economic implications, such as the decimation of small businesses and the potential long-term harm to sectors outside manufacturing. Tim points out that these actions might not even achieve their intended fiscal benefits.

Zach [25:24]: "If you cut every single federal employee, it would be less than 4% of our budget."

E. Critics' Perspectives on Trump's Motives

Vic offers a more cynical view, suggesting that Trump's tariffs are a deliberate attempt to weaken the American economy to consolidate power and benefit billionaires, rather than a misguided economic strategy.

Vic [24:11]: "I think his plan is to break the American economy, make people poor, give the billionaires opportunities to buy up every house..."

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IV. The "Woke" Debate and Democratic Messaging

A. Definition and Misuse of "Woke"

The hosts tackle the politicization of the term "woke," tracing its origins to awareness of systemic racism and its evolution into a pejorative tool wielded by Republicans to undermine progressive agendas.

Rich [39:40]: "At its very most basic definition, the idea that you are aware of systemic racism and its consequences."

B. Republican Reframing and Weaponization

Rich discusses how Republicans have co-opted and distorted "woke" to attack a broad range of progressive initiatives, including trans rights and feminism, making it a catch-all insult difficult for Democrats to defend against.

Rich [39:40]: "...the right took, distorted, mischaracterized, abused, and then smeared back at us in the most disingenuous way possible."

C. Importance of Clear Messaging

Zach advocates for Democrats to embrace and clearly articulate the true essence of "woke"—empathy and acceptance—rather than getting entangled in the right-wing narrative. He emphasizes the need for Democrats to take an offensive stance, framing their policies as inclusive and beneficial to all.

Zach [43:14]: "It's cancel culture is what they're trying to do with us. They're trying to make it seem like Democrats can't have an honest conversation."

D. Internal Democratic Strategies

The hosts debate the best approaches for Democrats to counteract the misuse of "woke." Suggestions include:

• Embracing Inclusivity: Openly adopting and defending woke principles to neutralize the negative framing.

  Vic [44:48]: "That's why I agree. They should just embrace the essence of what it means to be woke, which is protecting vulnerable people."

• Avoiding the Savior Complex: Chris warns against adopting a savior mentality, urging white men in the movement to support authentically without overshadowing marginalized voices.

  Chris [56:47]: "More veterans need to be willing to put some skin in the game."

• Engaging in Constructive Dialogue: Encouraging honest conversations about contentious topics like gender-affirming care without fear of backlash.

  Zach [62:36]: "We have to say the people who are telling you to attack trans athletes are the ones who are making your life harder."

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V. Organizing and Activism

A. Encouraging Local Political Participation

The hosts reiterate the importance of grassroots activism, urging listeners to attend local government meetings and consider running for local offices to influence policy from the ground up.

Vic [10:28]: "Just show up and be in the audience... Just start by showing up at a meeting."

B. Upcoming Events and Initiatives

Tim announces an upcoming event where content creators will counter Charlie Kirk’s right-wing recruitment efforts on college campuses. This initiative aims to mobilize progressive voices directly where conservative recruiting is taking place.

Vic [72:41]: "We're going to be at Texas A&M on April 22nd... to counter program it."

C. Promoting Educational Resources

Chris promotes his class on starting anti-fascist book clubs, encouraging listeners to engage in local organizing and combat fascism within their communities.

Chris [58:35]: "I will be teaching... how to start an anti fascist book club... go to veteransfightingfascism.org."

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VI. Conclusion

In wrapping up, the hosts emphasize the dual challenges Democrats face: combating the right-wing weaponization of "woke" and addressing internal communication issues to better engage and represent marginalized communities. They call for authentic, inclusive advocacy and strategic local organizing to counteract oppressive policies and rhetoric.

Tim [71:57]: "We've seen some green shoots, some good things happening, so... take care of yourselves and we'll talk soon."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Tim [01:53]: "Indivisible has estimated that over 5.2 million Americans joined these protests this weekend."
• Vic [02:38]: "Can anybody tell me what it was about? Can anybody tell me who was leading it?"
• Zach [03:36]: "Democratic leadership... has to step up and offer some kind of plan as to what this activism is trying to lead towards."
• Tim [05:41]: "We have to start getting more people running for local office... the more people win, we will be in a much better position."
• Zach [17:35]: "He thinks as a job creator, he's only creating jobs in the manufacturing sector, which is worse than service."
• Chris [18:52]: "I just lost $30,000. Jesus."
• Vic [24:11]: "I think his plan is to break the American economy, make people poor, give the billionaires opportunities to buy up every house..."
• Rich [39:40]: "At its very most basic definition, the idea that you are aware of systemic racism and its consequences."
• Zach [43:14]: "It's cancel culture is what they're trying to do with us."
• Vic [44:48]: "That's why I agree. They should just embrace the essence of what it means to be woke."
• Chris [56:47]: "More veterans need to be willing to put some skin in the game."
• Zach [62:36]: "We have to say the people who are telling you to attack trans athletes are the ones who are making your life harder."

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This episode of The Find Out Podcast offers a comprehensive examination of the challenges Democrats face in both mobilizing grassroots support and effectively countering right-wing narratives. By emphasizing authentic engagement and clear, inclusive messaging, the hosts advocate for a strategic approach to advancing progressive causes in a polarized political landscape.

Transcript

[Tim]

Hello and welcome back to the Find out podcast, episode four. Currently there are only five of us here. We decided we were going to start a little early today because one of our co hosts is habitually late. So we thought it would be funny to see what happens when he actually joins live. So.

[Vic]

Well, to bear with, we're not early. He's. He's still late.

[Luke]

We're actually behind schedule every time.

[Tim]

Every time. We are eight minutes over where we're supposed to be and some of us have children, so we have schedules and we just. Oh, there it is. Hello. Oh, that's right here.

[Vic]

Who's the new guy?

[Rich]

Yeah, I had to go find the link from last week because the new one wasn't working.

[Tim]

We're live, so we thought it would be fun to have you join in Midway. So anyways, here we are. We were just getting into an introduction and we are going to talk about. First, we want to talk about the massive rallies that happened this weekend across the country. If you are looking at social media at all, you will see just countless photos of massive, massive crowds, not only in places like New York and Boston and Seattle, but also in places like Anchorage. I'm going to use one from my home state, Farmington, Maine, which is on the western side and is a small place, had 4 to 500 people. Indivisible has estimated that over 5.2 million Americans joined these protests this weekend. And we're going to talk a little bit about what this means. Do we think that this is the beginning of a. And I hate to use the term resistance, but. Or whatever. Opposition.

[Luke]

I like that, too.

[Tim]

Well, I don't want to take your. Your. Your trademarked term, Vic. So, you know, I gotta. I gotta save it for you. What do we think? I mean, you know, is this nothing? Is this the beginning of something?

[Vic]

I think it's missing something. I love to see all those people going out into the streets. I think it's fabulous. I love to see that the media is finally starting to cover these protests because on the other ones, I had to really dig deep to find evidence that they were covering it. But what I keep thinking about is the Occupy Wall street protest. That was a really big thing. It was a really big deal in the news. Can anybody tell me what it was about? Can anybody tell me who was leading it? And when I see these protests, that's the thing I worry about. I worry that there's not a leader that somebody could say, I went to the protest because of this person. And we're all seeing the Same person.

[Luke]

I agree that that was the. I mean, I was at one yesterday and that was the vibe I got. There's a bunch of random people that got up and talked and they were, you know, they were well spoken and everybody was, you know, enticed by them. But it was like, well, okay, we're in the middle of bum fuck nowhere, Iowa, and that's who's talking. And we have nobody who were like, rallying behind in the nation.

[Zach]

That's the hard part for me at least. Like, when I get into these, like, I love the idea of activism, but, like, I'm the kind of person where I want to know, like, what's the tangible goal you're trying to get to? And like, just because there isn't one doesn't mean that I think it's a bad idea. I just look at it and go, like, it's great that we're organizing. Let's organize the goal a little better. The goal can't just be like, hey, we don't like you. It's got to be okay, then what? You know, and that's where I think, like, Democratic leadership, frankly, has to step up and offer some kind of plan as to what this activism is trying to lead towards. Because right now it's just sort of like a big middle finger to Trump. It's like, we all know we hate him. Like, it's great to show it, but let's have a reason for showing it beyond just a fuck you middle finger.

[Chris]

You know, this is something I've gone back and forth with my whole adult life. I came out of the military and went straight into the anti war veterans movement. Got involved in a bunch of street protests. I personally don't do protests anymore. Last time I was at one, my buddy got knocked over by a policeman on horseback and his head was stepped on.

[Luke]

Holy shit.

[Chris]

Changed his life forever. I'm. I'm done with that shit. So protest not for me. But, you know, I, I think that I saw what Vic is, is talking about from the Occupy movement of this kind of like, leaderless resistance thing. And I wasn't sold on it for the years until very recently. And that's why the day that we're releasing the show on Tuesday, I'm going to be teaching a class on how to musk proof your organizing. And the basis of this is through my nonprofit Veterans Fighting Fascism, we have the Anti Fascist Book Club. And I am trying to encourage people to start organizing locally, but with. With the goal, unlike the Occupy Wall street, where it's just like, you know, we. We want the situation to be better, period. Right. Getting people to organize in local communities and focus on their local politics, like school boards. That is where fascism comes. That is where it arrives first in every American's life. And that's where every American can actually make a difference. Because what are we going to do to protest Trump? That's going to make a difference. Tesla's stock is going down like that. That happened before.

[Zach]

Love that.

[Chris]

Trump the entire market. Right. So there is some value to popular resistance, but at the local level, like, if we saw the energy that we saw this weekend directed at the local level, at local school boards, no more book bans, no more crazy people getting elected to the school boards. So I'm very encouraged by this.

[Tim]

I'm going to maybe even go a little bit further. And I agree with everybody that obviously these protests need goals and we need to be driving towards something. But just the fact that after a few months where frankly, people were pretty deflated and defeated. Right. And kind of were, like, resigned to the awfulness of the next four years. And then I think when we saw Cory Booker get up and speak for 25 hours uninterrupted, breaking the record that was held by a horrible racist, Strom Thurman, so there was some nice poetic justice there. I saw for the first time energy levels online that I hadn't seen before. And I think then having this. These events that were loosely organized, I mean, I think Indivisible did a lot of work here and they deserve a lot of credit. We saw people getting out just because they were angry about what was going on. Now, this was a first weekend of this happening, and I think for the first weekend, that's fine, but I think we now need to figure out what to do with that energy and what to do with that excitement. Chris is right. We have to start getting more people running for local office. And if you guys don't know, this organization called Run for Something, Run for Something helps people run. Progressive people run for all levels. And frankly, we need an army of people across the country, even in deep red states, to be doing this, because it's a feeder system for the people 5, 10, 15 years from now. And so the wider that we cast the net and the more people win, we will be in a much better position. So I think this is a great first step, but now we have to figure out what to do with it.

[Rich]

Yeah. What I look at when I think about protests, because I'm not a protester, but I also have a camera and now a pretty significant reach where I can influence messaging. I look at what can you do and what do you want to do, and what does that look like? How are you showing up? Because I think about the offer from Daniel Bergeron, the photographer who offered to take all of our headshots. I had a really nice conversation with him. He is active in local organizations. He offers to do things like this, to support. This is how he shows up. He is not a person. There are a lot of introverts out there. Millions and millions of introverts. There are a lot of people who. I'm sure you guys get the comments in your inboxes as well in the DMs. I can't do what you guys do. I can't put. I can't hold the camera up. I go blank the second I hit the record button. But if they can make a sign, if they can show up at a, At a city hall and, Or. Or a town hall with a congressperson and they're either screaming or clapping or standing up, whatever that is right now is. Is frankly, it's good enough. I was. I was thinking about, like, hope versus action. You know, we're kind of in a hope era right now. We just had a big defeat, and we don't have Congress, we don't have the Supreme Court, we don't have the presidency. And right now it's like, what do we have that keeps us going? And that. That has to be enough because we still have to go to bed, we still have to wake up, we still have to go to work, we still have to take care of our kids. So what are the things that give you hope? And if it's holding up a sign that says truck fump outside of the Capitol building and it makes some people laugh, you know, you're showing up, you're doing something, and you're getting to bed maybe a little bit better than you would have otherwise. So for me, it. It doesn't make sense to make signs. I'm terrible at arts and crafts and showing up, that's. That's just not how I do it. My daughter is great, by the way. That's not how I show up. This is how I show up. But for. For millions of people, it's not the same. And that's what I really love about the progressive movement.

[Tim]

I think that's right. I mean, everybody can do something, something that fits in their lane. You know, we obviously, like, all clearly love the sound of our own voices. And so we put a camera in front of Us that just ran with it. Right. But, like, you know, making a call to Congress to stop these massive tax cuts they're going to try to put in is an effective strategy. I mean, if you look at what happened with when he was. Trump tried to stop all federal spending in January or February. When that happened, there was so much blowback that he stopped. Like, it is possible he is not immune to pressure. But we do have to be very clear about our targets. And I think, for me, the thing that I'm most excited about is building an army that is going to wipe out the Republicans in the house in 2026 and maybe even take back the Senate. And that work starts right now. And seeing that energy and seeing us coming relatively close on some special elections that we lost by 30 points in November and actually one that we hadn't won in 150 years, there is energy, and I hope everybody is fired up about this and finds the thing that they can do to make a difference.

[Vic]

I've got a great first step for people that talks about whether or not you can hold up your camera, whether or not you can run for office, or any of that. The great first step, if you're one of these people who don't want to do or you're not comfortable doing any of that stuff, the easiest thing to do is to just simply go to your city council meeting, your school board meeting, your county commissioner meeting. Just show up and be in the audience. I had one person already say back to me in the comments. She said, I followed your advice. I went to my school board meeting and I listened. And I think I could be a school board member. Just by going and showing up and listening, you get comfortable with the atmosphere, and you realize that these people who run for office, they're not any better than you are. They're just living, breathing human beings like you are. So just start by showing up at a meeting.

[Luke]

If you've got two brain cells to rub together, you can be on a school board. I promise you.

[Vic]

Hey, I was on a school board once upon a time.

[Luke]

I know, like, anybody can be on a school board. Like, that's the kind of thing anybody can do.

[Tim]

Yeah, I'm not sure that's a compliment.

[Luke]

Having fear is what lets them get into it because they have this monopoly where they're like, oh, nobody else. Nope. You got to be afraid to do this. No, you don't.

[Tim]

Guys, Marjorie Taylor Greene is a member of Congress. Exactly. Yeah. Lauren Boebert is a member of Congress and has been reelected. You can run for city council. You can run for school board, and I bet you'll be good at it. Like, I've worked for lots of politicians in my day. Some of them are unbelievable, and some of them are below average. There are certain people who are, like, above and beyond. But the. The. Our democracy works when everyday people participate. It doesn't work when people sit home. And that is partially why we lost in November. Yeah.

[Chris]

And I think people, especially my generation, millennials, I feel like we've grown up with the first really, like, nationally focused all the time because media, like, I feel like we might be a little different from this hometown newspapers died when I went to Iraq in, like, 2005. That's when the. They just disappeared. Right. And I think that my generation has been so focused on, I can't do anything if I can't run for Congress, thinking that that's the only thing that works. But what Tim talked about, how we need a feeder system as run for something does to encourage people like, hey, go to your town council meeting and just sit down like Vic said, and listen. And maybe that's right for you. Maybe training wheels is okay. You don't need to go onto the national stage and get prepared for, you know, televised debates and all sorts of shit. There are probably positions for most people listening to this show. They're probably positions in your town that go unopposed, that wouldn't even have debates because the local party infrastructure doesn't. Doesn't exist, or people don't care enough. So, you know, showing up and listening, that is the first step. And anybody can do that.

[Tim]

Yeah. I mean, look, some of these people who are on these positions, like, their positions are banning books, like, doing things like banning litter boxes in bathrooms, which isn't even a thing. So, like, these are the people who are running in a lot of these places. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't help our kids. It's a bullshit culture war thing. So the next time that you think that you can't be on the city council or on a school board, think about the other people who are running who are on the other side. Like, it's. And honestly, the more that we beat those people, the less they then get to the national stage. So it is a whole this. So I think anybody, if you're Interested, go to runforsomething.net Amanda Litman is somebody who runs that organization. They do an amazing work. So go check that out. I do want to pivot off of. Of what you could do, actually. I'm going to say One more thing about what you could do. Also, we are going to be opening up our substack live chats. They're actually open right now. We want people to be able to go in there and have conversations as well. And we'll be in there also. So, you know, if you go to findoutpodcast.subsect.com that's where we'll be. So we want to also provide a place for people to organize. We don't want to just talk at you. We want to actually help people take meaningful action. Now, I am going to pivot to the news of the day, which is this tariff insanity, which sent the markets literally, like, plummeting to the ground on Friday, but only for a few hours. So Monday, we're taping on Sunday, so you'll know what happened by the time you hear this. But, like, we are gearing up for a really, really bad day on the economy tomorrow. And I just want to hear from everybody, sort of like, just, what do you think he's doing? Why do you think he's doing this? Because it makes no economic sense.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Tim]

So, Zach, go ahead.

[Zach]

I'll jump in on that just because my channel kind of grew from the economic perspective. And like, I tried to pitch the disaster this was going to be for months and months, and it fell on deaf ears for a long time. Trump is trying to do two things, and they're both broad strokes that discount the details, right? So the first thing he's trying to do is he's trying to rebuild the concept of American manufacturing. And in his head, tariffs equal more American jobs because it's gonna force companies to build out manufacturing infrastructure in America, and that's gonna therefore create a bunch of American jobs. And also, Trump looks at this and goes, tariffs equal money in the pocket of the American government. So I'm gonna kill two birds with one stone. I'm gonna make us a bunch of money, and I'm gonna make a bunch of American jobs. What he neglects is every piece of contextual detail that is required to make these types of decisions that's gonna destroy the economy. And I would center on one main thing. Small businesses. Small businesses are going to get decimated by these terrorists because they operate on tiny margins. These tiny little margins that they have are gonna get erased and they're gonna go bankrupt, and that's gonna kill jobs. He thinks as a job creator, he's only creating jobs in the manufacturing sector, which is worse than service. You get better pay in service than you do in manufacturing. So he's creating, let's say hypothetically a few million jobs in a bad sector and destroying every other sector with this. It is a across the board loser from a guy who just can't figure out anything when it requires more than one second of detail orientation.

[Tim]

Well, the other thing is I don't actually know how many manufacturing jobs this will create because in order to build up that manufacturing capacity, we have to build new plants. Well, wherever.

[Luke]

Four and a half years on those.

[Tim]

Four and a half years. And where do many of those materials, the steel and the lumber.

[Zach]

Overseas.

[Tim]

Overseas are crazy.

[Luke]

That's a great idea. We'll make everything that it takes to build the shit more expensive while expecting to build more shit.

[Tim]

Right?

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Tim]

So nothing will ever get cheaper. Right. I don't see a world in which where these. First of all, we've never seen tariffs on this scale. Also I heard that like apparently they did the math wrong and they made the tariffs bigger than they anticipated wrong.

[Zach]

It's. They had a formula that was designed for like reciprocal tariffs but in reality the way they described reciprocal is not like a one to one like hey, France has a 10% tariff on us, so now we have a 10%. It's no, France has this. Plus what's the current trade deficit with France at the moment? But the problem is like if you look back in history when our trade deficit was the best is during the Great Depression. Trade deficit does not equal a healthy economy. It's the stupidest argument in the world.

[Rich]

I just want to add formula is a very generous word for the.

[Luke]

Yes, AI.

[Rich]

I've seen toddlers with crayons at Olive Garden with better formulas on their napkins. So let's be real about that.

[Vic]

As I was trying to say with my mic turned off, my degree is in mathematics. That's not math.

[Chris]

When I did, when I just. When Tim just brought it up for the segment, I just looked at my 401k for the first time. I am someone who has newbie move who started late because of the way my life has gone. I have not had a lot of times where I could save. So only starting in, I don't know, 2020 when I launched my my or 2021 when I started my first business. That's when I started like just putting away everything that I absolutely could. I just lost $30,000. Jesus.

[Tim]

On Friday.

[Chris]

$30,000 over the last few days.

[Zach]

I'm looking into mine right now. I want to see how much I lost.

[Chris]

I had worked for another non profit back in the day and that was the only 401k that was, like, automatic coming out of my salary. I never really paid attention to it. That was worth $30,000. And I just ported that over from the old 401 into my own, you know, new rollover IRA. The entire value of everything that I saved at Vietnam Veterans America working for four years is gone. Just disappeared.

[Vic]

I was talking to a guy last night for like, two hours who's thinking about running for Congress, and we. We got on the subject of these tariffs and what it's been. He said he looked at his. At his history of his 401k. And over the Biden years, he was making 23% a year in his 401k. And now just in the. The short time that Trump's been in office, he's lost 6%.

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Vic]

So he did the math that he's got to do 30% for four years to make up where he was.

[Tim]

Yeah. And Monday is likely to be worse because the tariffs came in the afternoon, so there was only a certain amount of trading before. Before closing, after close. I thought I. It was close to something like that. Yeah. Because. And I think that was intentional, obviously. Right, of course. But it doesn't stop Monday from coming. So. You know, there's also a chart that we've all been seeing lately, which hopefully our editor can put up while I'm talking about this, but the, the chart of the S P. Oh, yeah. And what it looks like over the begin, the beginnings of the previous president's terms compared to Donald Trump's, because generally what happens in. When presidents come in, there is optimism for a new person, and like, that, markets feel good. We didn't get any of that. And now he is the only one in the negative, just like he's the only president in US History to have lost jobs in his first term. Three million. So do. What do we think about. You know, obviously, there are some cracks. I've seen some people who, you know, even Elon has been railing against tariffs because Elon lost like 18 billion or 16 billion dollars on. On Friday.

[Vic]

So there's always a bright side.

[Tim]

Yeah, right. There's always.

[Zach]

There is a bright side in this. To me, though, the bright side is abundantly clear, is that people are turning on Trump, that he's, He's. His actions are having his own people turn on him. That is the bright side of this. Like, I. Sometimes I go on, like, conservative Reddit to see what people are talking about.

[Luke]

And even there, this place is a cesspool.

[Zach]

It's crazy. Though, like, so many people on the conservative Reddit right now are like, oh, I don't know what he's doing. Like, why is he doing this? They're so confused and some of them are pissed off. Like, he is losing his own people. Forget Democrats and independents, Republicans are pissed at him. That is the beginning of the end for this guy.

[Luke]

That was how it was always going to end, is they were never going to give a fuck when he was going after people that they didn't care about. But as soon as he came for their wallet, now they're going to care.

[Rich]

That's right. He said in the news just a couple of days ago that this is going to take maybe two years and okay, so he's buying himself, what, until the midterms. He's going to say, hey guys, we're almost there. Like at the last second. What are you saying to somebody who's, what is it, you know, 65 now, 66, 63. Like people who are within two years of retirement or people who are relying on invested funds to withdraw and actually survive as they're retiring. This is, I compared it to emergency surgery in a video recently. He, he took a healthy body with mostly healthy vitals, and he said, we've got to operate right now. And he just like ripped into everything. And oh, yeah, it's going to take two years, recover from that kind of operation. You can't just, you can't just destroy something and then say it's for your best good, like for your best interest when, when you didn't have really that much wrong with you in the first place. There's elective surgery, elective, exploratory, invasive surgery.

[Tim]

There was, there's a, there's a cover of the Economist, I think it was in December, maybe even January, which had a picture of US Dollars wrapped up in like a dollar, thing it with a rocket up and saying, we are the envy of the world because we were, we did the best coming out of COVID We did a horrible job messaging it and everyone else suffered worse. Their gas prices were worse, everything like that. Donald Trump has taken probably the greatest success story of a post a pandemic in history and driven it straight into the ground. And I think you're right. We are starting to see some people, There are still some people who are like, he's got a plan. Just hold on to Rich's point. You know, that person who's 65, who's ready to quit, they're gonna hang onto their job for another year or two, which has A cascading effect of less jobs for everybody else. So two years from now is not going to look very good.

[Luke]

There's a very small part of me that thinks that about six months before midterms he's going to roll back the tariffs and go, hey, look, I fixed the economy.

[Zach]

Oh yeah.

[Luke]

And historically that's not how it works. Companies don't have a good history of taking the fucking price increase down like that. Doesn't work like that.

[Zach]

No. And so many companies don't have that kind of Runway to survive these tariffs, especially like the small businesses, large corporations can weather it, it's fine, they can figure something out. But small businesses with 10 employees, they're, they're completely, it's, it's.

[Vic]

I think you guys are giving his motivations way too much credit. I mean, the motivations that you guys are talking about are maybe ridiculous, stupid, ill thought out or what have you, but they're not mean spirited. If for lack of a better word, I think his motivations are far, far more nefarious. I think his, his plan is to break the American economy, make people poor, give the billionaires opportunities to buy up every house, every piece of land that they can. You look at the fact that Russia was excluded from the tariffs and I think that he's looking to, to make us all desperate so that we're focused on nothing else except trying to figure out where our next meal is coming from. And that gives him power, and then that gives him a place where he can start making his nonsensical. What's the word? I can't think of the word right now. But he has these delusions of grandeur about being able to stay past this term and he needs us all to not be paying attention so that he can implement whatever pinky in the brain plan that he has. I don't even think he's smart enough to have that.

[Luke]

You know, there's that quote about never attribute to malice that which can be equally or adequately explained by stupidity. The exact opposite applies with his presidency. I think, like just about everything's got a bad, bad reason behind it.

[Zach]

Yeah, I could maybe see that. The only challenge I have with it is I think that, I think most people who even within his orbit know, like, if he makes it more expensive to live in this country and the stock market continues to be bad, their wallets are getting screwed over, people are going to be furious. Like he, he's going to lose a ton of support. I, I don't think, I'm sure he has a surveillance plan. I don't think that's stupid people. I mean. Well, yeah, but I, I think that they're more misguided than stupid.

[Luke]

He loves the poorly educated.

[Rich]

For me, it's just one of those distinction without a difference.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Rich]

We can argue about whether he's awful or whether he's a moron. The end result is, is the same. It was, it was the same with George W. Bush and the war on terror and the invasion in Iraq is like, are you negligent or are you a monster? And Right. For the average person, it doesn't actually make a difference. The outcome is exactly identical. If you, if you chase that, if you chase that. I mean, I either way coin flip it and, and it's, and I'm fine. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll have that argument. Yeah. But the outcome is, is where I'm really looking.

[Tim]

I heard something the other day that is probably the scariest thing that is happening in that this was related to the, the service members who were killed, I think in Lithuania this week. And he didn't go to pay respects. I think he sent Melania, which they're never in the same room anyways, so you could tell what he thought about that. The off the record quote, so take it for what it's worth is he doesn't care about appearances anymore. He's going to do whatever he wants. And that is becoming clearer and clearer because one of two things is going to happen. Either he finishes this term and he's termed out and he can't run, or he's going to find a way to get a third term and no one's going to stop him. He doesn't have an election anymore, so he doesn't frankly care. He doesn't care enough about the House. Like he just wants to be in power. So I think some of this is just trying to get everybody to bow down to him. And I do think Vic is right also that some of this is to depress the value of assets in this country so that billionaires can buy more of it and have control and basically create a system in which nobody can ever get ahead.

[Zach]

I think that's where I dive in and I go. I'm not sure I believe that maybe to a deck. I think he prefers the billionaire class, there's no question about it. But I don't think that he's doing this whole gigantic move just to benefit his billionaire budget buddies who he'd turn on in a second if it worked for him. Like he doesn't really have a major allegiance to anyone but himself. I think Trump is looking at this through the lens that actually like we have to look at it through our lens for a second because that's the way we exist. But then you look through the MAGA lens. To them this is a smart move. Like they legitimately think this is a good idea, that they're going to insulate the American economy long term. This is a long term play in their mind. They actually think this is a really smart economic strategy to create an insulated non global economy where the United States economy 10 years down the line is impenetrable and everything is made here. It's all founded on American jobs. It may cost more, but we have an insulated economy that's not gonna get affected by what's going on outside. So I understand the impulse to wanna believe there's this horrible nefarious intent, what Trump is doing. I think Trump is just beholden to this viewpoint that MAGA has across the board that only American stuff works, everything else doesn't work. Let's insulate the American economy. Let's just truly be isolationist. That is their game plan. It may come with the side effects of benefiting billionaires in the short term and all that stuff, but I have a very hard time believing that this is some big nefarious scheme just to do that. I think it's a big nefarious scheme to screw over low income Americans to protect the long term vision for MAGA America. That's really what I think it is.

[Chris]

I think that Zach is, is right. That is what I think is, is Trump's primary driver is this multi decade. Like it's been well documented that this man has always thought that tariffs were something that they are not. He simply does not understand the way that they work. But he always talks about them as if they are great and they're going to be engines of the American economy. But I, I think that the point about him not caring about the optics anymore with no longer going to Dover Airfield to, you know, receive the, the fallen, this is something that is, is sometimes deeply offensive to my community. Biden checked his watch when he was there for a ceremony when Fox News.

[Luke]

Ran it for the next like six weeks.

[Chris]

And it was a tremendous thing. I mean like MAGA was super, super upset. They care about, you know, some fallen soldiers, but not others, which is no surprise. Hypocrisy doesn't matter. But what is more prominent, I think for my community and what will be growing over the next few months is the decimation of the federal workforce and specifically of the VA. 1/3 of everyone who works in the federal government has served in uniform in the military. So when Elon Musk and the Doggy Boys are slashing government, they are slashing veterans jobs. Now, I'm not saying that veterans deserve jobs that other people do not. Right? I'm just saying that this community that MAGA pretends to care so much about, when Biden looks at his watch, they are silent. As on Friday, just. Just days before we're recording this episode episode, the Secretary of Veterans affairs sent out an email threatening everyone in the Department of Veterans affairs, saying that if you don't resign now, the deal's not going to be as good when you get fired. And those are my fucking health care providers, one third of whom are veterans. And he's sending out emails after hours on a Friday to veterans saying you must resign or potentially lose a better deal when we fire you arbitrarily. Why is it going to everybody in the va? Because they still don't know who they're going to fire. They came up with an arbitrary number. 80,000. They said 80,000 is the number we're going to fire. They don't know if it's going to be doctors or nurses or psychiatrists or psychologists. It's going to be all of them. Them, right? So MAGA is going to wake up and it is going to happen in August, because I don't see these firings being derailed by protests. I think that firings are going to happen in August. There's going to be a surge in suicides among veterans in September, and that's when MAGA is going to come. Come lose their minds. And they're going to come for Elon, everything that he's got. And Trump is going to have a choice. He can either sic them at Elon and stay safe personally or go down with the ship.

[Luke]

Well, he's supposed to be out, right? Because his, his government contract deals is up in May, right? In May.

[Zach]

Yep. Yeah, he should be, I mean, I think.

[Luke]

Which means he'll be insulated because he'll have three months release. Oh, it's.

[Vic]

Or he gets a new contract.

[Tim]

That's true.

[Luke]

Well, he's not even the leader of those. Just ask Trump. He's not even. He's not even behind it.

[Zach]

It's like. But this speaks to what we're talking about across all these things. It's this broad generalization that they went with. They're like, there's government waste. So we'll just cut a ton of jobs and it'll fix it. It's like.

[Luke]

And provide no proof of the waste.

[Zach]

Exactly. And it's like, even if you want to consider it, like, you know, fraud is one thing, waste is another. But it's like they are not taking a scalpel to any of this, not even taking a sledgehammer. They're just dropping a building on top of the entire thing. It's ridiculous. They're not thinking through.

[Tim]

It's maybe not even gonna cut the deficit. I have seen some stats about this, because first, when you, when you make these cuts, they're not in a vacuum. It's not like you just, just cut off the salary and that's a savings. Those people, those 80,000 people, what are they going to do? They're going to go on unemployment.

[Zach]

Yep.

[Tim]

They're not going to have health insurance anymore. They're going to go into debt. These things are not like it's. First of all, this part of the government is way too small to have an actual big effect on the deficit.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Tim]

If you want to cut the deficit, and I'm not, I'm not advocating for this, so nobody crucified me for this, but if you want to cut the deficit, you cut defense, you cut Medicare, and you cut Social Security. That's. Look, you can nibble on the edges around here. Well, I'm okay with the defense cuts, not the other two, but. Agreed, but. Because we spend $1 trillion a year. But, but, but this idea that we are getting rid of government waste and everything is going to be beautiful is just a lie.

[Zach]

You know how much? What percent? If you cut every single federal employee, it would be less than 4% of our budget. So we literally would not even touch 96 plus percent of it. If you cut everyone, not even their cuts, their cuts are like a tenth of that, which is crazy.

[Rich]

Yeah. And it's the salary and the benefits, but it's also the contracts that they're overseeing and the investments in the United States that they are making that they are administering. And I was looking into this the other day, and there's a website called policyinsights.org and it's just as a unified welfare analysis of government policies. And what they look at, and they don't mean welfare like food stamps, they mean welfare like social good. And what they look at is the return on investment with policies. And what you find is just like you might expect with the national parks. You have a handful of park rangers, they're building a park, Suddenly that's generating $50 million in annual fees from recreation because people are going and they're buying T shirts that say, you know, protect the forests. And they're walking the paths with their kids. And that investment of maybe a million or a couple of million dollars in building and staffing that center, that park, it generates 10 times. Then they actually have a ratio it generates three times, five times, 10 times. Some, some have such a steep return on investment, they literally can't calculate it with math because it's so pervasive. It's such a critical part of our economy.

[Tim]

So you. I worked at the Interior Department, which oversees the National Park Service. And actually on my other podcast called Political, I interviewed the national director, the former national director of the Park Service. There's my little plug playing his other unbelievable. Don't go anywhere else. But anyways. But I asked him about this and he said the federal budget for national parks is about $3 billion a year. The most conservative estimate for the return on that Investment is between 30 and 35 billion. Back to the economy. And it's not just the people who live in the United States. It's also people who come from other countries specifically to see these places you can't see anywhere else. That's free money. And in January, I think, or February, we saw the biggest dip in international visitors to the United States that we've seen in history. Not necessarily because of cuts to the parks, though that's coming, but because of this, like, no one is welcome here anymore. And so we have to. Just because we spend money. It's the same thing with, like, everyone lost their mind about the Solyndra loan that the Department of Energy gave out in like 2008 or whatever it was because it was a, it was a solar company that failed and the DOE gave them a few hundred million dollars. That program was revenue positive. It actually made more money for the government. But the Republicans went on that one thing and they demonized that whole program. So, like, there's this misconception in this country that government is just wasting money. And it's like the government is the biggest driver of, of economic freedom that we have.

[Vic]

You know, at this point, I have to ask all of you guys to consider something. Maybe, maybe we are all wrong. Donald Trump is a genius. The woke Penguins are going to pay their tariffs.

[Luke]

Man, you guys are expecting way too much, way too much analysis on return on investment from the guy who just had to sell Twitter to his own company so that the watchdogs for the money. Don't worry we'll make up the difference on that. National. The national parks by logging them. That's how we'll do it.

[Tim]

He sold him. He sold it to himself. For a loss.

[Zach]

For a loss.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Tim]

$12 billion loss.

[Rich]

And he still overvalued it. He said it was valued at like, $40 billion. I'm like, there's no way on Twitter.

[Luke]

This guy's a genius.

[Zach]

He's an idiot.

[Tim]

Well, I mean, Tesla's down that. I mean, Twitter is just a cesspool. Yeah. And. And as a reminder, Elon Musk built none of these companies. Other people did, which is also a misconception. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we had another topic that we wanted to talk about, and I think we should do it in the worst pivot in history, but I'm going to try it anyways.

[Vic]

I tried to hand it off with the wolf pinion.

[Tim]

You did. You did well. But. So one of this is a. This is a bigger topic, and we'll see how far we get into it today. But. So one of the. One of the reasons that the Republicans do these. These culture wars is to hide from the fact that they don't have any economic plans that make sense. We are seeing it now. These tariffs that were. Have sort of funny math coming in and all. It doesn't make any sense. Republicans are a lot better when they are in the minority. They are better at, like, getting into power than they are holding power because they don't have real plans that don't have to help anybody other than billionaires. So one of the things that they have used to weaponize and demonize people on the left is the term that everybody has heard is woke. This is something that has been used as a. As a. As a hammer against Democrats for being out of touch and way off to the left, when the reality is the term woke is not something that is far off lefty. It has. We have done a bad job of fighting back on it, which is kind of why we want to talk about it today. But anyways, we want to break down one of these terms that used to have one meaning, and now people think it has another. So we also are aware that this is six white guys talking about a term that was not created by any white guys, but we are trying to bring it back to what it actually means.

[Rich]

So, I mean, I'll dive in because it's. It's a terrible conversation for six white guys to have, but I think we need to have terrible conversations here.

[Tim]

If we're gonna sweaty a little bit.

[Rich]

We're gonna be authentic, you know, to me, it was most important. I mean, I. My. The most I know about. About woke ideology is what I like most. I think white guys is what I read on the Wikipedia page about the history of woke. And I found we don't need to go into the history because none of us are qualified to personally speak to the history of woke ideology. But essentially it goes back 50 to 100 years. It is at its very most basic definition, the idea that you are aware of systemic racism and its consequences. And this was a core part of black culture, at least going back to the 70s. And it took root in the music community and through artists. And then it really grabbed hold. It has since grown, not by necessarily the choice of black culture. It has since grown, especially since the right classically distorted it starting in about 2019, to include everything, to include trans rights, to include feminism, to include anything that is even remotely inclusive. In that sense, it's just the next crt, the next dei, the next feminist, the next bogeyman that the right took, distorted, mischaracterized, abused, and then smeared back at us in the most disingenuous way possible to make it something that is very difficult to defend because of the way that they've mischaracterized it. So I think, you know, going into this conversation, we are not speaking to the validity of woke ideology in its. In its true definition. We're talking about the political context of how woke has been turned into a football and, or maybe a hand grenade and chucked at leftists over the past four or five years, putting us in incredibly difficult positions to speak to it. Because we are trying to speak to the truth behind woke ideology, which is incredibly valid and based in statistics and economics and reality. And then this wild monster that they've turned it into on the right.

[Chris]

I think that we're in the interest of being careful about our discussion. Just from my background, for people who don't know my voice, this is Chris. I'm the neo Nazi hunter, right? I study anti racism. I. I want to push back a little bit about that. Us even using the term woke ideology is Republican framing. Like the word woke was used in, in the context of saying, like stay woke. That could mean for someone driving through the south in the 1960s, 1950s, here is the route that you take. Because if you go on this road or you go on this highway, these sheriffs are going to come after you and you might die, right? So, so saying woke ideology is, is wrong of us. There is no such thing as Woke Ideology or woke ism. Woke is about, like you said, being aware of systemic racism. And for black people, it is about safety more than. More than anything. So I just. I want to be careful, you know, the way that we're defining our terms. We need to recognize that it's about safety.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Chris]

More than anything.

[Zach]

I'll reframe it, like, because I. I'm. You know, I'm definitely the kind of. And I made a video about this this week where I do believe that this concept. I don't. You know, the ideology. The phrasing may be wrong, but the concept of WOKE is like the biggest poison to Democrats at this point. Not them believing in, you know, that we should protect people institutionally, but the way that the Republicans have thrown that hand grenade to us that what we've done with it is really bad. So I'm gonna reframe it in a different way. It's cancel culture is what they're trying to do with us. They're trying to make it seem like Democrats can't have an honest conversation, because the second you say anything that disagrees with what they're trying to say, they're gonna cancel you. That is where a lot of this momentum came from. When you get away from this, you know the history of woke and you start to look at just, like, the way people conduct themselves. Reason even this show has worked well is because we have an authentic conversation. We don't give a shit if people are thrown off or not. We're just gonna be honest about how we feel. People from the right and the middle of this country look at the left and go, you can't talk to the left about how you actually feel. There are just places where you can't have an honest dialogue. And that is what they're determining woke culture is. And that, to me, is a very poisonous thing, because if you look at the right, they're doing an excellent job of just going, I'm gonna say whatever the fuck I want. And people go, yes. I don't care if it's hate. I don't care if it's not hate. They're real. And that's why they like Trump, because they say he just says what's on his mind. That's what they like. So when you really get down to the essence of why this is fucking the Democrats so hard, it's because the Democrats seem inauthentic and incapable of having, like, an honest dialogue because they're afraid of offending people.

[Vic]

And to me, because the Democrats don't say, you're damn right I'm woke.

[Zach]

They should.

[Vic]

That's why I agree.

[Zach]

They should. You're right, they should. Because it's right. I mean, that's the thing. Like the core of WOKE ideology from the perspective that the right is throwing at us is protecting people who are vulnerable. That's it. And if that's a bad thing, fuck you. What's the alternative exclusion? It's so stupid, you know, so that's where I just get thrown off of. Like, Democrats need to do exactly what Vic is saying. Just embrace the essence of what it means to be woke, which is protecting vulnerable people and making sure that their vulnerability won't get worse, it'll get improved.

[Chris]

So can I throw another grenade into the room? And I'm sorry to hold the mic.

[Tim]

Do it.

[Chris]

Cancel culture, also taken from black culture. Like, the, the cancel culture is Republican reframing of a joke about like people being canceled because you're no longer interested in watching them. Like, you're no longer interested in consuming what they're putting out there, whether it's as a creator or as a politician or as. Or whatever. So for the, for the nerds who want to like, do some deep reading, I'm not going to explain the whole thing, but there's this guy, Chris Rufo. He is wine with, with Ron DeSantis. Ron DeSantis is like, put him on the, I don't know, the, the board of the College of Florida or some like that. Chris Rufo has been talking about how he's going to reframe these phrases, these words and phrases. Whether it's woke or cancel cult or cancel or deus. He is the singular person, the one person who like announces these plans and then major news outlets go and interview him and just accept his framing and they say, oh, there's this new cultural battle. That one fucking random guy in I think Florida, Chris Rufo, decided that this is the new cultural battle. And now we've got the, the Trump administration making racism great again because of, because of this.

[Tim]

Well, Chris Ruffo is the reason why Glenn Youngkin won that governor's race in Virginia because they spread fear that critical race theory was going to be taught to their five year olds. Which, by the way, critical race theory has never been taught in a high school or lower. It's a legal theory where. It's a legal theory that is meant to be discussed at college or postgrad, but it is not like. And they do it. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna to put some of the blame on people who look like us for a second, and. Well, let's. Let's dive into some of the difficult conversations here on the left. I don't think that Democrats who look like us listen to enough of our base, which are black women and black men voters. I think that if there was a. What's that said?

[Vic]

Can I say duh?

[Tim]

Oh, yes, you can. No, let's just be honest. I don't think. I don't think we do a good job listening to them. And if we had and we work together, I think this would be at a little different situation. And I think that when you look at the Democratic consultants and you look at who's in charge, they all look a lot more like us than they look like people of color. I think we need to do a lot more listening for the communities who actually have experienced this racism or have these challenges instead of cowering away from a term that literally, like, Zach, you said we should be like. No, you. Like, no, we're defending people that need to be defended, and there's nothing wrong with that. That, like, one of the biggest things that's missing, I think, between left and right is empathy and kindness. I think we have a lot of empathy and kindness, and I don't think they've got any. But, like, I. I want to be on the side that's defending people. I don't know why they don't, and I have no problem yelling and screaming it, but I don't think we do enough.

[Zach]

I agree.

[Tim]

Listening, that's the greatest sin.

[Luke]

Just ask Elon man. Like, that's the worst thing.

[Zach]

That's so stupid. I don't understand. And I want to also include, like, I agree we should be listening to, you know, all different minority groups, but also the LGBTQ community is a huge part of this woke argum. And especially the way that the right has just glommed onto, like, the trans argument. You just rewind 20 years of doing the same thing with gay people. It's like they just. Anything that's new that they can't wrap their head around, or it's like their religion pushes back against it. They just create this huge army of people who are completely misinformed on the topic. Like, if you ask somebody on the right what even trans is, they'll give you an inaccurate response every single time because they don't even know. It's ridiculous.

[Rich]

I think this is just another example of where we took their bait, and now we're fighting the battle on their turf. And if you. And. And it puts us in the worst possible position. Because we. They're saying, oh, well, all this. Woke DEI is like, well, woke and DEI are completely different.

[Luke]

Not even remotely the same. They're synonyms to them.

[Rich]

Right? Well, exactly. It's just boogeyman. It's just bad thing, which is, you know, black people, people with purple hair, lesbians, it doesn't matter. They're just not. Not straight, white soy boys, wealthy men. But there's a good example that's in my head that I just experienced of why it's not smart to have the battle on their turf. And this is. This is what happened. So you guys know Matt Walsh. He's the podcast that we passed on day one, Matt Walsh.

[Zach]

He.

[Rich]

He has a clip that went viral, and it says. And he leans into the camera and he says, it's true. I am a theocratic fascist. I want the government to force my religion onto you. And I saw that clip get clipped and go around all of my favorite progressive influencers. And I was like, well, my BS detector was going off. There has to be more to what he was saying. So I went and I watched just that broader snippet of the episode. He sat down and he was doing like, hey, let's talk about the lies that are going out around me right now. And he said, this is what they say, and this is what they say. And then he very, very sarcastically said, it's true. This. This lie is 100% true. I am a theocratic fascist. And then he went on the part that wasn't included in all of the clips from my favorite people. He went on to say, now they're going to take that clip and they're just going to go apeshit with it, and you're going to see it everywhere. And this is what they do. And then we did exactly what he said we were going to do. And so he's laughing. I found myself chuckling. I was like, this guy's an idiot. I hate him. I ha message. But I found myself chuckling because he called his shot. He called out what was going to happen. And then we all took the bait. Instead of just saying, I don't care what he calls himself. I'm not even listening to this guy. His message is irrelevant. I'm not going to fight that battle. And to Vic's point and Zach's point, we can just embrace what we're doing instead of refuting what they're saying, because they'll play that shotgun argumentation game all day long. They'll say everything and try to get us to chase all of the bait all the time and then we fall away from ourselves, our core purpose.

[Zach]

Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, I look at it like we're just. The only concern I have is so how far down the rabbit hole we are with this, like how far behind we on it. So everybody just has to universally sort of adopt this complete acceptance perspective, right? Without that, if we keep playing defense, which is what we do on every single issue, we're never going to get out of this hole. So we have to find a way to uniformly get people, just fully embrace the fact that, yeah, we're for all these people. If you have a problem with it, then you're against them. Like that, that's. We need to make that framing really clear. Like what? Like, I think the problem with a lot of what they say too is they don't make it clear what they want. They just make it clear what they don't like. So they point out, like, hey, Democrats, like this, this, this, we don't like that. Say, well, what do you want? Reframe it? What do you, what's your vision for America? Is it all just white men walking around, just, you know, owning the, like, what is it supposed to be? That's where I think Democrats can go on offense on the topic and be like, look, we know who we're defending, we know why we're doing it, it, what are you doing and why. That's how I think, how you can really put them on the back foot because otherwise they're just going to keep pushing into us.

[Vic]

I got a question for Luke.

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Vic]

So in, in my old man view, when I think about woke and I, I asked my viewers to tell me what they think and it's basically, if I could put it in one or two words, empathy and acceptance. And when I think about my generation versus Luke's generation and, and my kids, who are just my youngest, are just a little bit older than you. To them, all of this, this stuff, this anti. Trans, this anti. Or this racial stuff, all that to them, it's really freaking stupid. So I picture Luke's generation as woke by default because they don't believe in any of that crap that the far right white believes in, generally speaking. So my question to you, Luke, is, am I wrong about how I see your generation? And if I'm not, then how do we, how do we talk to your generation about this whole subject?

[Luke]

I, I wish that were true that they were woke by default. I think there's probably three, like classes of people and, well, not classes, but groups of people in, in my demographic where there's people like me who, you know, except just about everybody, however they are, you know, doesn't really matter, doesn't affect my life. Couldn't, like, I'm happy to love you as you are. There's the opposite who have fallen down the right wing cesspool misinformation or just general hate pipeline. And they. I would say that there are people that are my age that hate trans and minority folks more than people your age. Like, they have found they. The right wing pipeline has found a way to make them hate them just as much as their grandpas hated them. And it is really sad to see. And then there's a middle group where they don't understand anything about it. They're not inherently hateful. Like, they don't have anything against them, but they don't understand it. And so when they see like that cat litter thing, they think that's true. And so they're like, well, I can't be associated with that because that's really weird. Even though it's not true and it's a complete fallacy, they kind of skew themselves to the right because they don't understand anything about it and they think it's awfully weird.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Vic]

So how do we talk to them so that they.

[Luke]

I think the biggest problem is that we let them have that, like, that they're eating the cats, they're eating the dog's thing. Like that played right into that middle, like, don't understand anything about it. And they just kind of let it go. Like, yeah, they said, well, it's not actually true, but they didn't fucking fight it.

[Zach]

Yeah, that's true. And I think that, like, one of the things that dovetails from that is like the right then, like, people in that middle group then look at Democrats as like, we're pre. We're giving preference to these other, like, to the groups that are vulnerable and things like that. That to me is. Is the biggest challenge that we have is like the people in the middle who don't like. Because Luke is right, there really are three groups and the two on the sides are irrelevant to this. It's the group in the middle you want to look at. And that group in the middle isn't paying super close attention. So when they're just looking in the outskirts, they see Democrats, you know, constantly talking about all these different groups that fall under this woke umbrella. And that's why Trump's attack line of, you know, she's not for you. She's for they. Them. That shit hit hard for that group because they went, ooh, Democrats care more about these vulnerable communities than white men. White men are therefore under attack. That is the messaging. And it works like a fucking charm. It's not true, but it works like a charm. And that's what we have to push back against. We have to make it not seem as if we're, like, preferentially treating anybody. We're treating everybody equally. That's the fucking point of wokeism, is that everybody is on an even, you know, is treated like a human being at the same level, no matter where you come from.

[Chris]

So one thing that I. I want to really make sure that. That we, the six of us white men avoid is. Is stepping into this, like, savior complex thing. Right? Because that's. That's another thing.

[Tim]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Chris]

But selfishly, you know what? I. I wish more people who looked like us, who had the privileges that we do, would step into the space. Like I have. Like I have. I'm putting my skin in the game, right? I. I have been swatted. I have had people try to get me murdered. And I'm. I'm not speaking hyperbolically. I mean, people have tried to get me murdered.

[Luke]

Raise your hand if you've had a death threat.

[Rich]

It.

[Chris]

Yeah, Yep. Like, right, So I. I perform research into domestic extremists, neo Nazis who commit hate crimes. I gather evidence of that criminality and work with courts, work with plaintiffs, work. Work with prosecutors to get neo Nazis locked up. Right. I wish that more white men, men who have the same privileges that I do, particularly veterans who look like me, because we can do anything in this country and. And we don't face consequences like, full stop. More veterans need to be willing to put some skin in the game. You know, if you thought you were a tough guy, you know, infantry Marine over in Iraq, Fallujah, Afghanistan, whatever, you're a tough guy back then. You can be a tough guy, too, when you stay home. And you can put your body and your freedom on the line by standing up for these people in a real way, not. Not, you know, lecturing people online, not being a. An Internet tough guy, but actually putting. Putting your money where your mouth is. Like, invest your life in this. Like, I have. I. I wish that more people would do this.

[Tim]

Well, how can they do that? Do you have. I. I did a. I did an accidental, shameless plug. Do you want to put a plug in, too, for your stuff?

[Chris]

Yeah. So I didn't give a hard enough plug Right in the beginning. Am teaching. If you're listening to this episode fresh out of the gate as soon as it's published on April 8, Tuesday, I will be teaching in the evening a one time class, how to start an anti fascist book club which is all about local organizing, pushing back on fascism in your own backyard. Go to veterans fightingfascism.org get on our email list if you don't make it into the Zoom session. That's okay. If you're listening to this the next day or whenever. I'm going to embed that Zoom session on our homepage. And we have provided everything that you need to start your own anti fascist book club so that you can start fighting fascism. You can be a full time anti fascist racist in from your home full time with just the materials that we're providing.

[Tim]

And did you say the URL veterans.

[Chris]

Fighting fascism.org that's pretty.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Tim]

All right. And then we're going to go to another. Oh, go ahead, Rich. Oh, you to say something.

[Rich]

Yeah, I was going to expand on, on WOKE and politics.

[Tim]

Go for it.

[Rich]

I will not say that there is validity to the right wing argument against woke, against dei, against crt. What I will say is that for the exact same reason the six of us are not the perfect people to speak to woke. It's the same reason why it's not at the top of the voting priority list for millions and millions and millions of white American voters. And that's because they don't personally understand the consequence of living with and without it. To Chris's point, they don't need to survive with any assistance. You can walk down the street, we can all walk down the street with a hoodie on at night anywhere in this country and be completely safe. If a cop drives by, we're not going to think like I might get shot today with Skittles in my hand. That's why I think it's so important. Not only do we defend. I think it was Luke who said this is just about inclusion. This is just about saying everyone is equal so that everyone is, is, is safe and has the equal access to opportunity. It's also about the economic argument where we actually win together much more easily when we all work together and that it's the right again, distorting, manipulating this issue to say we're going to take the food off your table, we're going to make it more expensive to live, we're going to make your job harder, we're going to take away your benefits. These are all things that have been attacked by the right for 50, 60 years.

[Luke]

How many of those things have happened in the last two months?

[Rich]

All of it. And, and then they say, but you need to fight against women, against trans people, against brown people, because they're going to take the few scarce jobs that are left. And if a person is looking at the situation, they're saying, I either need to be anti immigrant and pro my own income and pro my own job and feed my own family. It's that hierarchy of needs. If they don't have those, if they don't feel secure in those basic, basic rights and those basic aspects of life, they're easy to manipulate because they're just operating out of a place of extreme fear. And so I think the only way to connect to them is not saying, hey, it's important to care about trans athletes more than your own income, more than your own ability to pay rent or feed your family. We have to say the people who are telling you to attack trans athletes are the ones who are making your life harder to live economically right now. And they're, and they're using this to manipulate you. And if, if we as a party can defend people and make that economic argument, which is thoroughly rooted in fact back to fdr. Yeah, we can win on both accounts. We can protect people and we can grow the middle class.

[Zach]

Yeah, I, I wanted to say one thing on top of that, I want to encourage Democrats because I agree with everything Rich just said there. I think that's exactly how we have to reframe it. But there's one additional thing that Democrats have to do back. We have to be better at having uncomfortable conversations and disagreeing with each other on these topics and spin, especially if you want to, like, hone in on one example, the trans issue. Anytime you even have a conversation about gender affirming care for children, it is like, if anybody has even, like, I know so many very far left people in my life who are iffy about that topic, but they are so not willing to have that conversation publicly because they will get destroyed for having any kind of negative viewpoint towards any sort of thing. Because there is evidence to say that it works. Like, there's no denying, I've read the literature, like, unquestionably, gender affirming care should be available for, you know, to, in certain circumstances.

[Vic]

I have to interrupt you, Zach. I have to interrupt you because what you're doing right now is you are playing to the right. You're making the problem all about this issue of whether or not kids get health care and the Trans issue is so much more than that. There are adult trans people out there who are being discriminated against every day. They're having their lives changed, their lives ruined. And. But you're making it sound like the entire issue is all about the kids.

[Zach]

No, no, I'm specifically honing in on this one issue to give you an example of how we do this wrong. Right? So, like, it's not. That's not the whole trans issue. I'm just saying any sort of uncomfortable conversation like this freaks out the left. We gotta stop being freaked out about it and just have an open and honest conversation that's rooted in the knowledge that none of us are hating on anybody. Nobody's trying to restrict anybody from getting what they need. But we're open to having a dialogue as opposed to going, don't talk about it. You can't say this, you can't say that. Don't say it that way. That is what's screwing over Democrats with a lot of people in the middle. Forget the right. It's the people in the middle watching Democrats tiptoe around topics and they go, I don't like that. I don't like the tiptoeing. Be a man. Say it how you feel it. That is what the left has to do.

[Rich]

I want to tell you, you guys are both absolutely correct. And that is that when this gender affirming care in Minnesota schools thing came out under Tim walls during the campaign and they said they're giving sex change operations to 6 year olds in preschool or whatever, it's like our response, which is classic, classic response to their complete insanity, was, of course, what are you talking about? Of course they're not operating on children in public schools. They can't afford a book in a public school, let alone gender. But what we didn't do is say, if you give gender affirming care to a fourth grader, what that means is when they go to the principal or the teacher or the counselor and they say, I don't feel right in my body, they have a person who is qualified to talk to that kid about that exact topic. And they can just somebody who's actually qualified to say, you're a boy and you should act like a boy, or girls don't wear jeans, which is a thing that happens elsewhere in the country. It's a person who's actually qualified to sit down and say, say, tell me more. Say more about these feelings. Have you talked to your mom and dad about this? Have you talked to your pastor about this? Have you talked to your pediatrician about this. They have this conversation.

[Vic]

How about we just point out that Tennessee is trying to pass a law that determines what kind of haircuts a kid can have, just like North Korea does.

[Zach]

Really?

[Luke]

I didn't read about that one.

[Zach]

I didn't know that either.

[Tim]

I didn't know about that either.

[Rich]

Well, they're making sure that, that there is gender affirming haircut so that we all know from looking at somebody what gender they are or how they, how they are supposed to present.

[Luke]

You know, you can always tell. Just ask the Republicans. I mean like when Lauren Boebert and they followed that lady into the, into that bathroom, you know, just going apeshit, calling security. That should have been a travesty.

[Tim]

I think there, I think there's, I, I, I actually am the same with Rich. I think you're both, both right. I think one, we do have to be able to have conversations with people who are not where we are on the issues. And I do think that that is a problem. And I think we not individuals, not anyone on this. But I think generally as a, as a group we tend to just be like, oh, you're anti trans, get out of my face. I don't want to hear it. Instead of like actually having the difficult conversation because some people just don't know. They don't get it and they don't get it.

[Luke]

And we have the chronically online armchair leftists scare the, out of the, the middle class.

[Tim]

They don't understand.

[Luke]

And like unless you're willing to take the flack when you say yeah, I really don't give a what you think. Like it really scares you when you think yeah, I might get canceled for just not knowing how to handle something. And then you look at the right, right? And these people that are just way down the r, the far, the far right, they can say whatever they want. And the people that are not as far or farther don't care. They're just happy to have somebody on their side.

[Zach]

Yes, that's exactly right. That is the core of this issue is that so much of the party has been hijacked by just fear of like what is the far left? And think of this. It's like who gives a shit if they don't like it, they don't like it. It's not like we're trying to like, I think the one of the biggest issues, and I'm sure Vic will be surprised to hear me say this, one of the big like stupidest ideas that came out of the election was going oh, the Democrats need to go up to the middle. Like, it's. We don't need to change our policy structure. We need to, like, abandon the people we're trying to take care of. We need to just message better and have better conversations. We don't have to become more moderate. Nobody cares about that. It's just the way that we're getting presented by the right is these wacko lefties. It's like, that's not at all what our actual proposals are. So can we just, like, root this in reality, please?

[Chris]

So I think that there's. There are multiple ways to message this, which is why we have a show with six people instead of one person. Right. I think the way that Luke and I approach this problem is we are like, oh, you want to talk about gender affirming care? Okay, let's talk about Elon Musk's chin.

[Luke]

Implants and hair plugs. I like this conversation.

[Chris]

Like, that is. That is gender affirming care. What's. What's the right wing guy who had his, like, whole chest redone because he had a sunken bottom?

[Luke]

I don't remember what his name is, though.

[Chris]

Like, like, every, every Republican out there there has had gender. Gender affirming care. They just don't think of it that.

[Luke]

Way in his usage.

[Rich]

Yeah, I don't know what the pronoun is.

[Chris]

You know, and everyone came out of. Of November. I mean, this is the reason we started a podcast, because all the Democrats are like, well, more white guys need podcasts. Right. Well, part of the reason we need white guys with podcasts is we need somebody like me to be like, well, Joe Rogan is someone who gets gender affirming care that talks about getting, getting, you know, testosterone shots all the time. The only reason that he looks like a little pit bull, and I want to emphasize little because he's got, you know, short man.

[Zach]

Yeah, he's tiny.

[Chris]

Exactly.

[Tim]

Very small. Is.

[Chris]

Is this guy is taking testosterone shots, which is literally the, like, premier version of gender affirming care. And he's like, the premier alpha for all American young men, males. So that's the way that, that I, I'm not saying everyone needs to talk about this, but I know that, like, Luke is going to join me on this.

[Luke]

Yep.

[Chris]

Like, we need to. Instead of defending, we need to attack.

[Rich]

Well, and like, I, I agree with Joe Rogan. We should all have gender affirming care. I agree with Elon Musk.

[Tim]

Sure.

[Rich]

This is the thing. It's not a bad thing. And we, and we allow it to be Made into a bad thing. And then we defend it. And then we look around going, why the hell are we defending, Are we defending as if this is a bad thing? Because that's. That's a false premise. But they set the table. They set the premise. And then we go have the argument. Because I have no problem with Joe Rogan getting a prescription for whatever he needs with his doctor. Just like I think that all young women should have access to. To birth control and. And abortion care with a conversation with their doctor. It's the exact same thing.

[Vic]

Just out of curiosity, because I don't know anything about, you know, when weightlifters and stuff are taking stuff. Stuff to make them get bigger. So does that mean that Joe Rogan's hands are getting smaller?

[Chris]

Yes. Yeah. So. So what happens is your testosterone. And if you're thinking about this kind of gender affirming care and you are a biological male, you should know that if you start injecting testosterone, your body goes, oh, I don't need to produce as much as this. And the parts of your body that produce this naturally start to wither away. So does Joe Rogan have. And does RFK Jr have physical manifestations, byproducts of their gender affirming care that might make them feel inadequate in a locker room? Yes, definitively. Yes. Because that is the science. That is what the science says.

[Vic]

Brilliant.

[Chris]

Yes.

[Rich]

I would say it's possible. Technically speaking, it's possible. All these things are true.

[Luke]

You know, some people are hyper responders never know.

[Tim]

I think that this is a perfect spot to say goodbye for the week.

[Vic]

We've got another. Find out.

[Tim]

We've got another. We've got another. Another plug that I forgot about. Vic, you got. You and Luke have something coming up in a few weeks.

[Luke]

Oh, yeah, we can announce that, can't we?

[Tim]

What's happening?

[Vic]

And maybe R. Rich, what's the verdict? Yes or no?

[Rich]

I'm gonna make you wait to find out, Vic.

[Luke]

Oh, my God.

[Tim]

This.

[Luke]

It's been like a week.

[Vic]

You know, there are government there, there are construction contractors that have had an easier time getting paid by Donald Trump than getting an answer out of.

[Rich]

It's how I stay relevant.

[Vic]

All right, so y'all. You guys all know who Z is, right? Right. National ground game.

[Luke]

Yeah.

[Vic]

So national ground game has looked at the fact that Charlie Kirk is going around the country to all these college campuses trying to recruit young college men into their right wing. And Z was like, why aren't the Democrats doing anything to combat this? So she went to her board and she said, let's do something. And. And her board gave her approval to pay for a bunch of content creators. Luke is one, I'm one. CFH is going to be there. I think there's a long list of.

[Tim]

Content creators are going to be there.

[Luke]

If you're younger and you know who that is.

[Vic]

Yeah, they're like one of the top.

[Luke]

They're my age.

[Vic]

Yeah, I. I had to look them up.

[Luke]

That doesn't surprise me.

[Zach]

They're on my feet all the time.

[Vic]

So, anyway, we're going to be at Texas A M on April 22nd at the. I don't know what kind of event it is on campus there, but we're going to have a booth across from Charlie Kirk. And while he's there spewing his right wing, we're going to be there. All of us content creators from the left are going to be there to counter program it.

[Rich]

You guys may remember Charlie Kirk from. From. From recently being eviscerated by Pearl Mania 5000 to the tune of 4 million views on his incredibly bad, bad take on. On tariffs.

[Zach]

Is that the Tangerine video?

[Luke]

Yep.

[Rich]

Yes.

[Zach]

That was such a good video.

[Luke]

Absolutely mutilated.

[Zach]

Yeah, that was great.

[Rich]

Not good.

[Vic]

I'll email the. The stuff to you, Tim, so that your guy can pick out what to put up on the screen.

[Luke]

Booyah.

[Tim]

Got it. Got it.

[Rich]

Before we sign off, can we just pull a Matt Walsh and say I. I actually do believe that. That all white men should just be sent to Guantanamo Bay.

[Vic]

I argued against talking about this stuff just for the record.

[Rich]

Oh, man, if they flip that part. See, now I gotta call if they're gonna clip that part and they're gonna say, see, this is how far the left has gone. So I just now.

[Tim]

Well, that's one way to increase our viewership, I suppose.

[Luke]

Certainly.

[Tim]

Well, okay, on that note, I think we are going to. We are gonna wrap today. So thank you everybody, for. For listening. I have to say, we are all just kind of blown away by all the amazing responses we're still getting from people on our personal accounts and on the Findout accounts. So, you know, this is only episode four and we feel like we've built quite a big community here. So we hope you will come join us over on [e-mail] and check out those chats that we'll have set up. Otherwise, hang in there, folks, another week. We've seen some green shoots, some good things happening, so. So take care of yourselves and we'll talk soon.