B (4:36)

No, no, no, no, no. Oh, you're. You're working on being a politician, right? You got to give long answers, right?

A (4:40)

You.

B (4:40)

You and Rich both, you love your soliloquies. So, so, Graham, when you. So obviously a lot of thinking about this when, when you announced, were you thinking that this would be. Would take off the way it did, would be a slow burn, Were you completely surprised? Like, what, what was going through your mind when you, when you launched and got all this attention?

A (5:00)

We, so we, we essentially agreed to do it on, like, August 5th, and from August 5th to August 19th, we built the launch, which. And, you know, we, we had what we thought were. Were like very kind of pie in the sky ideas about fundraising, about visibility. We were going to, you know, have the launch video slow. The idea was over the next six months, we were going to kind of like, you know, slowly grow, do a bunch of earned media stuff. That was the idea. We blew through our fundraising goal on the first day. We completely blew through our first, like, months of fundraising goals in the first week. The attention and the visibility side of it was far beyond our wildest dreams. And then people like, we scheduled this kind of town hall swing around the state of Maine because I firmly believe that if you're going to represent working people, you have to go out and go into their communities and talk to working people, because they don't have the time to go to fancy fundraisers or take time out of their day to go talk to a Senate staffer. So we planned it. We thought we were going to get like 50 to 100 people at these events. First one we threw in Ellsworth had 900 people at it. Second one we threw in Portland had almost 1500 people. And then after that, it just kind of went insane and we had to scale up all of the venues. I mean, it became quite the. Quite the thing we. To say it's like beyond our wildest dreams is an oversight. I can't even. It's like far beyond anything we could have comprehended. But I also think that just goes to show, frankly, just how. How in need a lot of people are of this kind of politics of an actual, frankly, like, working people focused politics that cares about economic issues, that's dreaming big again about things like health care, dreaming big again about things like infrastructure. I mean, we used to be a country that did this stuff, and we used to be a party that pushed this kind of thinking, and we haven't been. And I think that the fact that the, the response to the campaign has been what it has been really shows where the energy is in the electorate right now. And, you know, obviously last Tuesday, I think if anybody needed any more evidence, I think we got it.

B (7:23)

So as you're traveling the state, for those of you who don't know, for the people that are listening nationally, to get 900 people in Ellsworth, which is very, very. It's way up in the north, is kind of insane. And, you know, you think of Portland as the sort of like the big city, which is probably what, three, four hours from there, at minimum.

A (7:40)

Three hours from Portland.

B (7:41)

Three hours.

C (7:42)

Yeah.

B (7:43)

You know, and you are from a part of the state that the second district, which is much more conservative, you know, what are, what are you hearing from? You know, we can get to Portland in a minute. But on in the second district in where it's very, very conservative. Like, what is the reaction? Obviously you're getting lots of people, but there's a lot of MAGA up there, too. Are you hearing any folks that were, that were possibly MAGA and are interested in your campaign? How is that going to.

A (8:09)

No, I mean, there's a lot of that. And you know, I think that people. It's been weird for me these past few years living up here where, you know, a lot of my friends are Trump voters and they're my friend. I mean, I live in a town of a thousand people. You don't really get to choose your friends and neighbors. Right? Like, it's, these are the people that you live with. It's like, and we, Maine, I think still very much is a, There's a lot of small town community here still. That cuts through a lot of the polarization. And for years I've had conversations with friends of mine around politics, you know, where we disagree on a fair amount of stuff. But like, there is a. They have the same disillusionment and the same frustration with the system that I think a lot of people on the left or even just, I mean, at this point, like disillusioned, unenrolled, moderate voters have like it. The thing that has fascinated me is like, as you go around the state or as I've been around the state, Republicans, Democrats, independents, third party, whatever you ask a single working person in the state of Maine, do you think you live in a political and economic system that has your best interests at heart? Nobody says yes to that. Nobody says, yeah, everybody knows. Everybody knows in their bones that they're being screwed. And frankly, I think it's one of the reasons why a lot of people did turn to Trump is he told them that they were getting screwed. He told them they were getting robbed. His answers were, of course, I think, entirely wrong and blamed all the people who weren't to blame. But when you talk about corporate interests, when you talk about Wall street, you talk about private equity in hedge funds, there are plenty of conservative voters out there who also are angry at those folks who do not see them as on their side, who see them as extractive, who see them as frankly stealing from them. And something that I think is that to me has been the most interesting because a lot of folks, a lot of folks are perfectly happy to disagree with you on a lot of things in politics as long as they think you're not lying to them, as long as they think that you're actually telling them what you believe and that you are speaking to, frankly, the actual material needs. And I say this on the stump a lot, but when the hospital closes, it doesn't matter who you voted for, the hospital closed. When you can't afford rent anymore, it doesn't matter what your voter registration says. You can't afford rent. And I think those are really the issues that are motivating a lot of people right now. And it's getting worse. And as it gets worse, I really do think we need to have a politics that is understanding that there are people that. We've all been kind of on opposite sides of this left, right divide. But people need to realize that it isn't left and right. It's from down here and up here. I mean, that's where the blame is. Whether it's the political system, whether it's the economic system, like that is where we need to be focusing our ire and our energy. And I have found that that argument works very well with a lot of conservative voters in District 2 who very much understand what's going on. They might have been sold a bill of goods, but people aren't stupid. People know that the system is not built for them. They're well aware of that. And I think there's a lot of value in just frankly pointing that out and then pointing to policy prescriptions that are easy to explain, that are easy to grasp, which we can get into. But I think that's where the future is.

D (11:54)

So, Graham, one of the things that I think made you so compelling to me.

B (11:58)

Right.

D (11:59)

I've said it on this program before. You are the first candidate of any kind that I've been excited about in a very long time. I mean, I see myself in you in. In a lot of ways.

A (12:12)

We.

D (12:12)

We were in Iraq, I think, at the same time. In 2005, I was army, you were Marines. You know, I. I have seen clips of you at town halls where you kind of choke up talking about your experience at the VA and how the VA really saved your life and how you, as a veteran, find it unfair that. That Americans don't have the same access to health care that we do. And I think you said you shouldn't have to fight in a war to get access to health care. So what are you. What's your plan? Like, what. What can you do as a senator to convince Republicans who are going to say absolutely fucking no to socialized medicine that a. The VA is not broken? It's actually the best health care system in America And B, more Americans ought to have access to that type of things. So what's the plan to convince Republicans that this needs to get done?

A (13:13)

The Well, I mean, I'll be entirely honest. I'm not sure that we're going to convince Republicans. I think in some ways we have to beat them. And that is, and I, and I fundamentally believe that there is a, we need to be going into it with that kind of thought process that, that, you know, if we're going to get the things that we need to get or that what American people deserve, which I truly believe that Medicare for All, some kind of universal health care system. But I think Medicare for all seems to be the most fleshed out. To get that we're going to have to wield power and we're going to have to have political will to make it happen. We're also going to have to elect a lot more people like me. I mean, and that's kind of, I mean, I think in many ways that's the project the Democratic Party really needs to be engaging in now, which is it's, it's not just a matter of figuring out how we compromise with people who in many ways are going to be uncompromising about the most important stuff. We got to beat them. And we need to run campaigns, frankly, in states that Democrats have written off for a long time, campaigns based around this kind of messaging because we need to build that power. That said, I do think there is an element of the Republican Party these days represented more by like the Thomas Massey's and the, and the Josh Hawleys where they're like, and I'm not convinced that they're actually on board with representing working people, but at least they're kind of paying lip service to it. And there may be some common ground to be found there. I don't know if there is and I'm not going to frankly hold my breath. I do think that if there is any compromise to be had, it's going to be with people like that around the needs of working, of working class Americans. But, but I think fundamentally the project needs to be about building power and then building political will and making it happen. And you know, when I look back at American history, the good things we get, that's where we get them from. You know, like fdr, it was not about finding a bunch of compromises with the people that hated him. It was about wielding power.

C (15:33)

Right.

A (15:33)

It's about building power and wielding power and exercising an immense amount of political will to get done what, what he thought was necessary. And I. One of my biggest critiques these days of the Democratic Party is that that kind of mindset, at least in leadership, is really seems to be gone. And I think in many ways that is that mean. Look, you know, this is a depressing statistic, but, you know, we held the presidency, we held Congress, we held the Senate for multiple occasions over the past 20 years. And we held it for sometimes very long times. And then we let these kind of like self imposed structural problems or people that were supposedly in our camp, we let them just sabotage it all. And I think that was one of our biggest failures, I honestly think, is what paved the way for Trumpism, because people just weren't. They just saw the whole thing as being as a sham and they wanted to burn it. So I. Yeah, the reason I'm running for Senate, honestly, is I think the Senate is the place to go to build that kind of power. I think because of the way it's structured, frankly, the way that it was built for the elites actually gives working people a. Like, we can turn it against. Against the people that it was built for in a way, because we've got these Senate races in rural states where every state still gets two senators. And if we can run more races like mine around the country, there's really an opportunity there to build an immense amount of power in one of the most powerful places in the American government. But we also have to just get people elected who want to build power and then want to use it when they have it.

C (17:24)

Yeah, I think we're in a incredibly opportune time right now to have this conversation too, as a country, because you look at like, you know, the 70s and 80s, we had an extensive working class prosperity that led to the civil rights revolution, that led to feminism, that led to LGBTQ + rights. Those things were a byproduct of. Of middle class working class prosperity. Not. It wasn't the other way around. And the working class got so much power that they were actually a threat to the billionaire class. They were preventing the billionaire class from existing is how I should frame it. And Reagan started to unravel that. But they of course, brilliantly paired the sort of you hate capitalism argument with the. Its immigrants and gay people and women who are to blame. So that as they took away your money, they had someone, they could divert your attention to someone else. Exactly. They could say, well, as soon as we're done taking care of all of these brown, you know, gay, gay people, then you will have your money because they're taking your jobs. Meanwhile, they're just raking cash out of your bank account and out of your paycheck. Through the, you know, through the 90s were tough because of globalization. And then it was, they very effectively argued through really the, I don't know, up until Obama that you were attacking prosperity. Like, people still believed this trickle down. I think that has been finally squashed. But then since then, we got so enamored on the left with like, hey, if a black guy named Barack Hussein Obama is the president and we, we like, invested, I think probably too much in hindsight in his identity. So that which then gave them the permission to now attack identity and turn it into this whole fucking thing that we've had to deal with for the last 10, 15 years. Now, now people are understanding attacking and defending identity first is not, that's not the way to go. Like, we have to defend, obviously, we have to defend human rights. We have to defend people's right to exist and be healthy. But that's not the political argument that you go and make. The political argument that you go and make is, hey, we got to take care of people. And I think people are going to be receptive to that now because we've seen 15 years of attacking women and brown people is still like, we're in a worse place now for the working class than we've been in my life. And so, you know, thank you for, for identifying the. And being part of it, because it is terrifying. Like the stuff that, the stuff that you described here gives me steep anxiety thinking about, thinking about running for office and going out and putting yourself out there on behalf of the working class when you've got billionaires staring directly at you.

A (20:08)

Oh, yes, yeah. But, you know, it's, you know, I really do. I fundamentally believe that it is, it is economic factors that kind of drive a lot of other things. And like you pointed out, when we had the most prosperity amongst the working class and the middle class, that's when we had some of our most effective progressive moves. And again, that's not, it's not accidental. Those things are directly connected. It's also, you know, at this point, I mean, I'm not sure where it is, how it is everywhere else, but in the state of Maine right now, I mean, things are legitimately getting worse. I mean, they're bad and deteriorating almost by the week when it comes to healthcare, when it comes to affordability. And that's what is on top of mind for everybody. And that's what the focus needs to be on. And that doesn't Mean, it doesn't mean we sell people out. I mean, I, I very like, I'm pretty unapologetic about my, my defense. And I would say the progressive wins that have happened culturally in this country. I do not think, like, I don't subscribe to the idea that, like, we need to, in order to appeal to more working voters, we have to, like, maybe sell out, you know, marginalized communities or maybe we just have to change our language a bit. Like, it's. You don't have to do that.

C (21:36)

It's cowardice.

A (21:37)

It is cowardice. And it's. And I, and I just, I have no patience for it. At the same time, it also. But like, it can't be top of mind. Like, what you need to be talking about is the, are the economic factors, are the material factors, conditions that people are living in. And frankly, you also need to blame the system and the people who have made these material conditions a reality because it's not organic. It didn't have to happen this way. You know, we're. We're living in the outcome of policy, period, End of story. None of this is the way the world has to be. And, and we know that because we've lived in a different world in the past when we had different policies. Other countries live in very different realities than we do because they have different policies. And that I think for me that's like, that just needs to be the focus because that's what people interact with and because this kind of extractive, exploitive economy that we have has become so obvious to every single normal working person. Like, there's you. You merely need to say it like that. Like that, for me, has been the most fascinating thing about this is I've just gone out and said some words out loud and everybody's like, yeah, yeah, that's. I mean, that's it. That's. Because everybody talks about this. Like when you normal people, Republic, everybody across the political spectrums, when they're talking to each other out there in the world, nobody's sitting around being like, nah, man, it's really good that corporations run everything and that like, every company is now run by private equity and we have like, consolidated ownership. Nobody thinks this is good. Nobody supports it. And so when you just point it out and say that it's bad, a lot of folks are just happy to get on board.

B (23:30)

So on that. One of the things that, as a Democrat and have been a Democrat for a long time that has driven me crazy in Maine is how Susan Collins has projected herself as a moderate when in fact she has essentially gone along with all of these policies that have put us where we are today. But yet still, you know, she does the like, you know, she, she'll vote against the Republicans when Mitch McConnell says he has enough votes. For example, I think I've heard you speak about that, which I haven't heard a lot of people say, which she actually does. She and Lisa Murkowski like, switch. Right. It's like, which one's going to take the fall this time? And you know, and you mentioned that she was against releasing the Epstein list, which now we've seen. Donald Trump is, is been implicated in that. But definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think we're probably going to see. Well, maybe we'll see more soon. But how do you convince Mainers that Susan Collins time is up? And in fact, she is not a moderate at all. In fact, she is a pretty hard right. Republican when, when the rubber meets the rope.

A (24:36)

I think there have been two major changes since the last one of these in 2021 is that even though she had voted for Brett Kavanaugh at that point Roe had not yet been overturned. That has changed now. Roe has been overturned and we know why it was, we know how it was and we know Collins's culpability in it. I think that alone turns off a lot of the voters that she used to rely on because she has relied on a subset of Democratic voters in Maine to vote for her. And look, I'll be up front. I've been one of them. When I was in my 20s, I voted for Susan Collins because I very much thought she, I believe this whole kind of charade of I'm a moderate and blah, blah, blah. I mean, I've been disabused of that for a long time. I also think at this point a lot of people in Maine have been disabused of that for a long time.

C (25:29)

Yeah.

A (25:29)

So I think kind of fundamentally the days of a lot of Democrats in Maine voting for Susan Collins, that's come to an end.

C (25:38)

Yeah.

A (25:39)

The other thing though, and this is kind of like a, I would say almost a more important one, is that I know a lot of Republicans that hate her. I know a lot of Republicans that see her as like the epitome of the DC Establishment, self interested, like corporate politician. And a lot of Republicans are now like, who are Trump supporters. They hate that part of the Republican Party. They see that as much the enemy of their version of conservatism as they think Democrats are. And many of them, I think, see the kind of establishment wing of the Democratic Party and that establishment wing of the Republican Party as the same thing. And I think by running a very clearly anti establishment campaign, by making it very obvious, I mean, luckily past few weeks have not been great. It's not enjoyable to have your life ripped apart by those who have the means to do so. I will say it's a deeply not fun experience as a regular person. However, in some ways it is very clear that the establishment element of the Democratic Party also doesn't want this candidacy, which is going to be helpful. It's going to be helpful in the general because I'm going to be able to point out, look, I'm clearly against the whole thing and I think there are Republican voters there that we get. I also think there are a lot of frankly disillusioned, unenrolled and independent voters who are also gettable with that kind of message because I mean, frankly, they're mad about the same things I'm mad about. They're disillusioned about the same things I'm disillusioned about and they're looking for a very different kind of politics. So it's, I think it is kind of in those two elements that's where we're going to get our win margin. Now, the reason I entered this race, well, there's a few, but one of the big ones is that I'm still deeply concerned that to take a word from Susan Collins herself that the establishment of the Democratic Party in D.C. is going to run a race that very much looks like the one they tried to run in 2020 and they've chosen the kind of governor as their avatar. And I think the governor, well, she's been a good governor in Maine. I just don't think it meets the moment. And in going with someone who's been in politics for a long time who is clearly very connected to the like the D.C. establishment, you don't get to make that argument. You don't get to make the, the, the kind of like transformational politics argument which is what people want right now. And I fear that it's going to one turn off a lot of voters who might just sit it out because they're completely uninspired. I also fear that like that is not the kind of campaign nor the kind of candidate that's going to get those disaffected Republicans that's going to get those disillusioned independents because they're just going to look at it and be like, oh yeah, more of the same and, and I think that that is how we lose to Susan Collins again, quite frankly.

B (28:54)

Yeah.

D (28:54)

So my biggest critique of, of Janet Mills, which, who we're interviewing next week is that at nearly 80 years old, she apparently hasn't mentored anyone in the to who could possibly be a senator. But, but her. I, I think that that is the greatest failure of the Democratic Party. The lack of mentorship, the lack of simply stepping aside to let Gen X and millennials start to, to fill some seats. What's your, what's your plan? Do you are, do you have a mentee right now? Like, do you have someone who's kind of coming up with you who you see is running for, for office, learning lessons from you?

A (29:43)

So the I firm, that is my critique of the, of the Democratic Party writ large. I, I think, I mean this is, this is the failure, quite frankly. They're like all these people have been in power for all this time and they have done nothing to build a bench. The only person doing it's an independent. It's Bernie Sanders. Bernie. Bernie has been trying to build a bench.

B (30:07)

Yeah.

A (30:08)

Build it. Bernie has been working with, I mean Bernie, you know, endorsed me nine days into this thing. And Bernie and I have remained very close throughout all of this and he's, he's given me a lot of really good advice and a lot of really frankly very necessary kind of like advice and support. I've. Because I come out of the organizing world. I don't come out of electoral politics, as the New York Times loves to point out, but I do come out of politics. I come out of, out of, out of organizing spaces. Community organizing. I've been connected with labor organizing. Not, I don't, I work for myself on the ocean. I exploit my own labor so I don't have to unionize myself. But much of the trainings I've taken in organizing come from the labor organizing world. And that kind of like organizing focused movement politics is very much my politics. And that is a politics of understanding that we are in a generations long battle, that this is a, the world that I want to build. I will not live to see it. And I know that. And, and I have worked with people out throughout the years who've been doing this stuff since the 60s and they still get up every day and they still go out there and they fight for justice and they fight for equality. Even though the world we're in now is in many ways worse than the one they started doing this work in, and yet they still go out and do it because they understand that for us to get where we need to go eventually is just going to take people understanding that it's a long struggle. And because of that, building out a much more robust network of people who are building the skills and frankly, building the confidence to do this kind of stuff. It's a core of this project for me because this is not a, this is not about me running for United States Senate. I'm just going to be very upfront. The number one reason I agreed to do this is I see this as a statewide organizing project, the likes we have not seen in Maine possibly in history. And being able to bring the resources and the visibility and the, in the kind of the, the skills to bear to build out that kind of network. But so the answer is, yeah, I mean, so we are very much focused on building this as a movement. And to do that, we, we need to, like, we're. Our plan is to provide training. Our plan is to work very closely with all the other organizations that are already in Maine that are like labor unions, progressive groups, community groups, because there are, I mean, those, those are the places you're going to find that next, that next round of leadership. And I've learned a lot over the past three months and I very much do not want what I have learned to just kind of go into some vacuum in my brain. It needs to be imparted and we need to be kind of building out a really robust bench of people coming down behind me, not just to run for Senate, but to run for statewide office, run for states, state House, state Senate seats. Frankly, I really want to focus on getting people to be on their town select boards, get on school board. I mean, the right did that. The right has done that for over a decade at this point, which is one of the reasons they've had so much success. And yet, meanwhile, like the Democratic Party, I don't know, it's either like they don't want to or they just don't even have the skills anymore to understand what that is like. It's been very frustrating for me. And what we're trying to build is going to be the antithesis of that.

C (33:57)

I mean, I just think that it's remarkable that we haven't learned this lesson because like you look at Bill Clinton, he came, he was kind of a, like a little bastard, right? When he came out in 1992, he was not the next person up. Barack Obama was not the next person up. John McCain and Mitt Romney very much were the John and John Kerry, they were all the next people up. Hillary Clinton, I voted for her so proudly, was the next person up. Failed, you know, loss, loss, loss. And in every case where we try to do the thing where you wait your turn and when it's your turn, it never fucking worked. And it's. And it's insufferable because the longer you're in the system, the farther you get from regular ass people. So I, I think the thing that's so exciting about this, then it's like manifest destiny. The thing that's so exciting about this is like we're actually seeing ridiculous wins. Like, Zoran Mamdani had no business being elected the mayor of New York City, but in this environment. And Donald Trump proved on the right that the same thing is true. When you come from outside the system, you have all sorts of advantages you can exploit because you're just fresh and you're uncorrupted by the system, corrupted by other things in some cases. But he was also a fucking awful, terrible billionaire and everybody just kind of forgot that part of it. But I love that, I love how you describe this. Like, what do you see happening in the next, like four years? You think this is going to be a successful movement into the midterms and into 2028? Or do you think we're going to get beltway success?

A (35:28)

No, no, I think this, I. Look, I think it's going to succeed because it needs to succeed. Like, if this kind of politics, this is in my, this is the only way forward. Like, we cannot continue doing what we've been doing. The status, the center cannot hold. I mean, we are, we have reached a point where we need to be looking at politics in a totally different way. And you know, it's funny to me, it's not new. Like, I'm not talking about a new kind of politics in the United States. I'm talking about an old kind of politics. Politics. And you know, I think Bernie did this in 16 and 20 is, you know, a lot of people saw Bernie and they were like, oh, this is new. Bernie's politics is not new. Bernie's politics comes out of the older kind of politics, the movement based politics. The politics that comes out of the labor movement, comes out of the civil rights movement, comes out of the suffragette movement, the disability rights movement, the gender equality movement, all of these movements which were all about organizing and building power and then using that power to get what you needed. And when I look at American history, effectively every single good thing working people have ever gotten in this country, every single thing that has moved us further down the road of progress has come from that. It does not come from the status quo, like developing some kind of, like, humanism. It does not come from those in power waking up one day and thinking, oh, maybe we should do right by people. It never has. And, you know, it's a. And if you're honest about American history, if you're honest about kind of the movements that got us things like the eight hour workday and the 40 hour workweek, if you're honest about the movement that got us the Civil Rights act, if you're honest about the power that was built to force, frankly, the American government in the 30s to do the New Deal. You know, like, I mean, FDR wanted to do that stuff. He also needed to, because unions and people like Francis Perkins, who want to be personal heroes in the great state of Maine, they made him do it because they had. They had built power and they were in the. And they use that power to impose on the system. And that is the only way that we do this. But to do it, we need to reengage with those legacies, right? And I mean, I think in many ways we're lucky. We're lucky because even though this country tried to kill the labor movement for the past 40 years, it is not dead. And they have kept the fire alive. Even though a lot of this kind of polarization has stripped away that kind of community organizing focus that. That used to have a lot more oomph, there are people who have kept that flame alive this whole time. And what is necessary now is that we get campaigns like this, like. Like, you know, electoral campaigns that are going to get all the visibility and all the coverage. We need to get those. To then connect to those groups into that kind of legacy, because that's where the power building comes in. And we got to get people trained, we got to get them competent, and we got to make them confident that they actually have the ability to build power. And, you know, like, for me personally, I had to learn this. You know, I read. I read no Shortcuts by Jane McAlevy A number of years back. She's a pretty labor organizer. And then I went and took the training that her group does, Organizing for Power. And it was in that that I essentially got language to think about power in a different way, to think about power as something that is not just meant for a certain type or a certain group or a certain structure. Power is merely available for those who are willing to organize and to take it. And it is in the organizing that we can build power amongst amongst working folks. And I think it's going to work. I think it's going to work because it has worked in the past. And that the, frankly, the, the kind of challenges that we are now up against, the challenges that we're now up against are, the only way we're going to fight them is by building that kind of power again and reconnecting with those legacies of, of America's history.

B (39:52)

Right. I think that's, I think that's 100. Right. I think you have, clearly, you have struck on something here in, in both in Maine and across the country, because you're, the money that you have raised is, is a lot of it's coming from Maine. But everybody, I think, on the left is very excited about your campaign. But I want to talk about, you know, the, the, the, you, we talked a lot about the good stuff that's happened, but I do want to ask the question of some of the stuff that has come out about you and give you the opportunity to, to speak to everybody about this. But obviously, you know, there's been some discussion about some, some of the Reddit things you make, comments you made years ago. But I think the bigger question, I think for people, and I get asked this as, as you know, I'm the token main person pretty much wherever I go in New York, you know, they want to know about the tattoo that you got when you were in the Marines, I believe, and that in Croatia that resembles a tattoo, the Totenkopf that SS officers, some had in, in, in Nazi Germany. And that obviously caused a lot of uproar. So I want to give you an opportunity here to explain what happened there and when you found out about it and what you did about it.

A (41:01)

Yeah, I, I got a skull and crossbones with other machine gunners when I was in Croatia, and I've had it on my chest for 18 years. And I went to college. I took my shirt off in the gym. I've been taking photographs with it. I've been going to the beach with it. I've literally just gone through my life with the skull and crossbones on my chest, or that's what, it's how I envision it. And quite frankly, it never came up. I also reenlisted in the army with it, and I had to go to MEPs and get a, get a screening for tattoos. And then I also worked for the State Department and got a security clearance and also got screened for, for like gang related and hate tattoos. It never came up. And it was a, it's A, you know, that kind of skull and crossbones death's head motif has been obviously popular since the Romans with military units and, and all kinds of folks. I've seen similar ones on French Foreign Legionnaires that I was in Afghanistan with. Certainly seen similar ones on some, like, SF ODAs that I worked with. So it, like, I, for me, it was always a military related thing. That's how I thought of it. And, and yeah, I've just kind of been going through life with it and it never came up. We. I essentially found out about it a couple weeks ago when we were contacted by press that was like, you know, like, does Graham have this hidden white supremacist tattoo? And like, I'll be frank. I laughed at first because I was like, no, of course not. That's insane. The. And then, you know, we, we looked at it and we looked at the other. I was like, oh, Jesus Christ. So I don't want that on my body. So I call up a friend of mine who is a tattoo artist and they covered it up within about four days of us finding out. I would have done it sooner, but my schedule was a nightmare and I couldn't. I had to go get a Tattoo at like 11 o' clock at night because it was the one time it could fit into my schedule. But, yeah, so, I mean, that's a. If, if I, I'll just put it this way. If I thought that it was something that was widely recognized or that I knew it was a thing that was recognized and seen as, as affiliated with, with white supremacy or neo Nazis, I would not have just gone through life with my shirt off in front of my family, in front of my friends taking pictures. I've like, I worked at bars and like, took my shirt off at work in D.C. and went to the gym. I mean, yeah, I would not have done that. And so it was, it was framed for a little while. Like it was this secret. And I'm like, it's not much of a secret. There's a thousand photographs of me with no shirt on. Because I was not thinking of it in that context. But when, when it was brought to our attention, I was like. And I'll just be like, I don't want something on my body that is, that people are going to view as affiliated with, frankly, a politics or political ideology that is the antithesis of my political ideology. Like, I've. I hate Nazis. I've been a dedicated anti fascist since I was about 12 and heard my first Dead Kennedy song. You know, I Grew up, I grew up on punk rock. I grew up in the Dropkick Murphy's and, and you know, hating Nazis and, and sometimes fighting Nazis at hardcore shows was a thing that I liked to do when I was in high school. So it's a, and then, you know, since then I've done like in Maine I, I, I've done some more like kind of anti fascist organizing, tracking of fascists in the state of Maine. And, and so that's that, that is where my politics lie. So I was happy to, to get it covered up with a Celtic knot, which to be entirely honest, like I'd thought about getting like covering it up for years because it represents a part of my life that I just don't really connect with as much anymore. I mean it's a skull and crossbones and I got it because of my time in Iraq as a machine gunner in the Marine Corps. And for a number of years I always thought about like, I mean it's not like I don't really, that's a thing that happened in my life, but it isn't like kind of the, it's not a thing that I connect with a lot anymore in like a positive way. So. But also tattoos are painful and expensive, so I just never got around to doing anything about it. But, but when I, when this came up, yeah, happy to, happy to get rid of it to say the least.

D (45:43)

So this, this is something that, that we as a crew have, have talked about a lot. So none of this is a surprise to, to the listeners. So I apologize for saying things again to them. But Graham, I'm going to be honest man, I'm, I'm struggling with, with this a lot. Um, what listeners didn't get to hear is before we hit record, Graham actually told me that, that he and I, or reminded me that he and I re, we engaged with each other on Instagram a few years ago. So my last time in Maine was two years ago. I was going up to, to Waterville to teach a local church group how to track anti fascists. I had, my organization had just written an instruction manual that was literally like grandma friendly, like here's how you can be an anti fascist and not punch Nazis. And I, I know that you know what like NSC131 is. I know that you know what Blood Tribe is and I, I know that like you've seen the flags, you've seen the photos, you've seen the shirts. And I, I just really find it hard to believe that, that you didn't make that connection earlier. I, because I, I know you're an anti fascist. Like, I know that. I know you're an anti fascist.

A (47:14)

Right.

D (47:14)

I'm not, I'm not never ever going to say you're anything but that. You, you are. Otherwise we wouldn't have been talking years ago. But just. I seriously find it hard to believe that, that the connection wasn't made until someone called you in August.

A (47:30)

No, I, like, I, I've. I mean obviously I've seen the skull and crossbones. I've seen the death's head. I've. It's, it is a. Yeah. I just, I never thought of the tattoo I got in that context. Like, it was like, I always thought of it in the military. I mean I've seen plenty of military units and you know, throughout history using a very similar. And that's how I always looked at it. Like I've, like, I know that neo Nazis use a similar thing, but I always thought it was like what's a skull and crossbones? Because they're, and they're using it for their kind of. And you know, using it because of its affiliations and. But it, like it's, it just never was. I never thought of what I had like as that or in that context. I always thought of it as just being. Yeah. Something I got with some guys in Croatia and when I had seen it in other very similar, frankly skull and crossbones like, like variations on other American military units and on allied NATO units that I served with in Afghanistan and that was just always the context I, I saw it in and never really. And never thought about it frankly, in that, in that other context. I mean it's also, I mean I'll just like I've, I've taken my shirt off in front of like other people that do anti fascist organizing and I had never, it never thought twice about it. And yeah, it's like, it's. Yeah. I mean that kind of. I think that kind of imagery can be hard sometimes because it's all so similar, but it's also, also used in so many different kind of places and ways and I, Yeah, it was just not, it was just.

D (49:15)

Yeah, yeah, I, I appreciate you, you talking about this with us. I mean vet to vet. Like I'm happy to. Yeah. And again, like I, the listeners know my story. Right. I, I like really flirted with, with falling down into a fall. Right. Far right. You know, like the, the Oath Keepers.

B (49:36)

Right.

D (49:36)

I was a Ron Paul Republican back in 2007 when I got out of the army. And I was a pissed off anti war vet.

B (49:42)

Right.

D (49:43)

That is literally where the Oath Keepers started. Like, I was very fucking close to that, you know, but for like a handful of influences, I very well could have fallen into that and been a completely different fucking person today. You know, I, I am, I'm thankful that, that you're not slinking into the shadows. I'm thankful that even after this you're willing to, to talk about it, to, to continue your campaign, because at the end of the day, I'm not a Mainer, so I can't fucking vote for you. But at the end of the day, if I were a Mainer and I had to choose between somebody who's been talking about what's happening in Gaza as a genocide that Israel is perpetrating or a person who is closer to 100 than they are to 50, I'm going to vote for the person who names the genocide. Like, that's what's important to me.

B (50:52)

Well, Graham, let me, let me ask you too. And sorry for those watching my camera overheated, so this looks a little different, but. So I live in New York City and so obviously this is the second largest Jewish population outside of Israel. And we obviously had an election with Zoram and Donnie winning and there was some, some, some accusations of anti Semitism, which frankly, I think we're, we're. I understand that, the tendency to be afraid, but like, in his particular case, I think it was bullshit and he ended up winning 40% of the Jewish vote or something like that. Maine doesn't have as big of a Jewish community, but it does have a Jewish community.

A (51:29)

Yes.

B (51:29)

Have you done outreach to that community in the, after this? And what has the reaction been to that?

A (51:36)

No, we've, yes, and I've had some conversations. It's, I mean, like, and I, for, I'm very understanding of why people are concerned. I mean, like, I'm like, when I, yeah, I was like, oh God, this is, I mean, for me to be essentially called a Nazi is like the height of. I mean, that's the worst thing I could. Like, it's painful, right? Just, I'll put it that way. And, and I hate the fact that like I, that this happened in the way that it did and it gives people pause on that front because I like, anti Semitism is a real thing. It's a real thing here in Maine. It is a, it is a, frankly, a poison not just in the United States, but internationally that has been around for so long. And it, there is never, ever Any remote excuse for it and it should never be spoken to. It is a. And I've, I mean I, I've been again, essentially an opponent of anti Semitism my entire life. But it is a, I understand very much the concerns of like the Jewish community in Maine, not just around this, but also around like my language about Gaza. And you know, and I'm, I am trying to figure out, because I do not want in any way, shape or form my criticism of the Netanyahu government, my criticism or my calling out of the genocide in Gaza that cannot be taken as part of like a greater project to inject antisemitism back into the conversation or to be used to, to blame Jews. Because that's insane. Because it is not the fault at all. I mean, like, it's like there's just, I'm very much of the opinion there is no connection between Jewish people in the United States and the Netanyahu government. The Netanyahu government is the Netanyahu government. They are doing what they are doing as the government of Israel. They in no way shape or form represent the Jewish population in America. And anyone trying to make that kind of connection, which sadly I see on the right a lot these days, I mean, the whole Nick Fuentes, Ben Shapiro blow up is I think, pretty rooted in this, in this stuff. And it's disgusting. I mean, it's like, it's utterly horrifying. So I'm trying very hard to, to kind of mend those fences and build those connections because I, I do not. My politics is very much one of inclusivity and it's very much one of protecting marginalized groups and, and, and bringing, I mean, you cannot build a, I would say a kind of organized movement focused working people's politics without having it being inviting to everyone. It needs to be anti racist, it needs to be against anti Semitism, it needs to be against Islamophobia. It needs to be again, like all, every one of these things cannot be welcome in a political movement that is trying to build something good for working people. It's, it's, I think historically it shows that it can't be, but just ideologically and morally it can't be. And so no, I'm, I'm, we're trying very hard, but it like, and I, I understand why people are concerned. I'm not a, I'm not an idiot and I'm not, and I don't really get defensive about this stuff because it really is a thing that I'm like, concerns me. I don't want people to feel like that about myself. So.

B (55:14)

Well, let me tell you, I mean we, this, this podcast as we were talking about before we got on our, our whole mission in life is to bring more, more men, but everybody to, to the left. And, and that means that like you can't just you know, essentially cancel somebody for, for past behavior as long as they have made amends along the way. And you know, I, I will say like I, I think that your answers to these questions has been more open and honest than I would see from most politicians. I mean for example, these aren't the same but like Janet Mills is not going to release her medical records and she's just saying no instead of answering questions. And as Chris was pointing out, the same like I, I will. I would prefer a candidate that has done some things in the past that have made amends for, than people who will not answer straightforward questions about whether they are fit for office. Just like Donald Trump didn't release his tax returns, you know, if Janet Mills is not going to release her medical records, I think that is a real problem for a candidate that is 77 years old. And you know, there are some people that run for office who don't have anything in their background because they've always wanted to run for office and that hasn't gotten us very far. So look, I, look do I wish you never had that? Absolutely. But like, yeah, I think like the fact that you have a record of working in the anti fascist movement and the fact actually that you are willing to answer the questions, you know, I think the listeners and, and your voters are going to have to, to decide. But you know, even your answer on Israel, which is exactly, I think all of our position too like critiquing. We all believe that it is a genocide in Gaza, but that I am not saying Jewish people are committing genocide. I am saying the Netanyahu is doing it and many Israelis want him out. It's, it would be the same as saying all Americans Donald Trump is responsible for. We all believe what Donald Trump believes, which is obviously not true.

A (57:13)

So I, I do like my, my, my stepbrother is my, my stepfather was Jewish growing up and my stepbrother lives in, lives in Jerusalem. And I mean he and I talk often about this and like there are so many Israelis that do not feel represented by the Netanyahu government and are also opposed to what is going on. And it is a, like so for me like even just like personally like I could never, I would never levy that charge because it like I just Know that it's fundamentally not true.

B (57:51)

Right, right, exactly. Well, we were running just about a time, but I want, I have two more questions. Well, actually I have one big question and then a series of very short questions because we actually had Dan Cleveland on a few ago and I asked him some main trivia. I'm going to ask you too, but before that there are, I want to make sure we get this out there because there are stark policy differences between you and Janet Mills. And I think these things are very important for voters. What are some of the policy differences in your. I have some in my head. But what are the, what are the big distinctions on policy where you differ with Governor Mills?

A (58:26)

One, I think my commitment to Medicare for all, which is, and I've heard the governor talk about healthcare, I haven't seen like an actual kind of like fleshed out policy idea around it. But the way that she has talked about it, she is not talking about it in the context of like larger structural change like Medicare for All, like developing a universal healthcare system and treating healthcare as a human right, which it is. And I also believe housing is. I'm a firm believer in FDR's economic bill of rights. I think that had we done that when he wanted to, we would live in a very different country today in guaranteeing work, guaranteeing housing, guaranteeing healthcare, guaranteeing safety for retirement. These are the kinds of things that I want to go fight for. I would also say that based on the governor's veto record, I don't think she and I have the same opinions on organized labor. Like, I am very much a pro labor candidate. I think frankly the ability of working people to organize in the workplace is fundamental to building power for working people in the United States, which I also think is why we've undercut it for the past 50 plus years. So it is. She has vetoed a lot of labor legislation that's come across her desk. And that does not give me confidence that she would be the kind of senator to go to Washington and fight for the pro act or fight for frankly like funding the NLRB in a better way. So we get, we get a, we get labor courts that actually go after unfair labor practices that actually represent workers as much as representing management. You know, that's, there's a lot of structural stuff we have to do there. And I just don't see her record as governor as being in line with that. And then the last one is going to be tribal sovereignty. The governor has been an opponent of tribal sovereignty pretty much every step of the way, both as AG and as governor, and I am a firm believer that we need to treat the tribes in Maine the same way we treat all other tribes nationally. And we need to treat them as equal partners because they are nations. They are nations that are deserving of respect. And we sign treaties that we have not respected and we need to respect them. I also think we very much need to make amends for the fact that we have not treated, treated them like the nations that they are. And I don't think the governor has kind of has the same opinions on that. So, I mean, there are more, but I'm not going to ramble for too long. Those are the top, top of mind ones.

B (61:17)

Well, I appreciate the, the conversation about the tribes because I actually worked at the Department of Interior and the Obama administration and Indian affairs is in that. And there was a lot of efforts under the Obama administration to strengthen those bonds. And then I know in the Biden, Biden administration, we actually had a. Deb Howland was the secretary, the first Native American Secretary of the Interior. So I'm, I'm glad that those issues tend to get glossed over and I think there's a real opportunity also to engage tribes and get them more in the, into the process of voting and participating. So I, I love that. So, all right, we're going to go to something slightly less serious and then we'll go. This is a very short one. I've got a series of short questions that these guys are going to roll their eyes at because they're going to have no idea what I'm talking about. All right. And I know you're an oyster guy, but I have to ask you a lobster question. Lobster roll, mayonnaise or butter?

A (62:08)

I mean, do I have to tell the truth?

B (62:11)

I want to hear the truth.

A (62:13)

Okay. Honestly, I, I like, I like butter and a little bit of dill. That said, that's the Connecticut way of doing it. And we have no respect for them. So, So I, I, I mean, I very much enjoy a cold, a cold lobster roll with, with some mayonnaise. Not too much, though. I don't want globs of it. It just needs to be lightly, lightly tossed.

B (62:38)

Well, that I'll get you. I, I'm a, I'm a Mayo guy, but because I, I live near Red Z, so I don't go there because the lines are too damn long. I, Craig's. Is he better?

A (62:49)

And also, you don't have to wait in line, so.

B (62:51)

Right.

D (62:51)

It's.

B (62:51)

Yeah, it's just as good. It's crazy. Anyways, Moxie, delicious or terrible?

A (62:57)

Fundamentally the best soda in the history of humanity.

B (63:00)

Yes, yes, that is the correct answer.

A (63:03)

I just. Very quick. It's funny. I. I drink a lot of Moxie when I. On my oyster farm. I come in, usually get lunch at a little general store. I drink about a Moxie a day. And early on in the campaign, we did a Reddit ama and somebody asked about this, and I was like, yeah, I drink about a Moxie a day. And then a bunch of journalists went to the store to find out if I was lying about drinking.

B (63:25)

Oh, my God.

A (63:25)

Of course. Like, the stores, like, yeah, no, he comes in and drinks Moxie almost every day. So. No, Moxie is delicious, and Moxie makes manners mighty.

B (63:34)

So 100%. These guys also don't believe me that there used to be a Moxie store in Lisbon.

A (63:40)

Oh, yeah.

B (63:41)

I don't think it's there anymore. But, like, what's that?

C (63:44)

I never said that I believed you.

B (63:45)

I didn't say you're the only one. All right, I got one more. This is the most important blank. Built is best built. Fill in the blank.

A (63:57)

Oh, yeah. No, I. I know. Oh, my God.

B (64:03)

Through these doors, past the best shipbuilders in the world.

A (64:08)

Bath built.

B (64:09)

There we go. Yeah, there we go. I had to do it because that's my. That's my town again.

A (64:13)

I'm sitting, by the way, I'm sitting here drinking out of machinist mug, so.

B (64:16)

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I used to see the sign is, like, plastered outside the door. So, you know, you. Sullivan's probably, what, three hours from Bath?

A (64:25)

I don't. I. I never spent a lot of time driving through Bath. When we went down to Portland, we usually take 95 to 295. So it was.

B (64:34)

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that. That makes sense. That makes sense. Well, those are. Oh, actually, there is one more question. I'll add this. Can you. Can you sing the sixteen Counties song?

A (64:45)

No, not off the top of my head right now, but I have a very funny, very brief story. When I was in boot camp, one of my drill instructors was from Maine. And when he found out I was from Maine, he would just make me sing the sixteen county song and then would haze me when I screwed up one of the counties. This happened just all through boot camp. He would just be like, platner, 16 counties. I'm like, 16 counties. And I said, okay, Lennon, Franklin. And then I'd screw something up, and then I have to go like, get in the pit for a while, so.

B (65:16)

Yeah.

A (65:17)

Yeah.

B (65:17)

Well, you remember more of it than I do. We had to do it in fourth grade. I can't remember. But anyways, Graham, thank you for you've. You've given us more time than I think anybody has given us, so we really, really appreciate it. It's pleasure. Yeah. And we'll have to have you back at some point, but we really enjoyed this conversation, really enjoyed the authenticity that you bring to this campaign, and we wish you the best of luck moving forward.

A (65:39)

Thanks a lot. No, it's been a pleasure. Thanks, guys.

B (65:41)

All right, thanks. We'll talk soon.