Tim (2:05)

Let's do it. Apparently, apparently Donald Trump has. Has gone to his generals and said, why haven't you opened the straight up Hormuz? And the answer is it doesn't take much to close it when you just have undefended tankers running through. You could literally send a $50 drone and hit it. Like, it's not.

Brenna Perez (2:26)

Yeah, well. And also, they hold the minesweepers from the area, I guess. I mean, a couple months ago, was it? Yeah, yeah.

Luke (2:36)

That alcoholic dip fuck, he's, he's talking about how the only threat to the, to the ships going through the straight or is Iran, is Iran shooting them? Well, no shit, Sherlock.

Brenna Perez (2:46)

That's your job.

Tim (2:47)

You're supposed to stop that. By alcoholic shithead, I believe you mean Pete Hexif. You would be correct.

Brenna Perez (2:53)

Which one?

Luke (2:54)

He's like, I can't imagine why nobody's going through. The only threat is that Iran shoots your ship.

Brenna Perez (2:59)

And that is the selling that. The assurance was like, like, we will insure the ships or we'll cover the insurance. It's like, it's just about money to them. It's, yeah, absolutely zero concern for, for the lives that could be lost. It's just. Don't worry, we'll cover the costs, you know?

Tim (3:17)

Well, he, he apparently, like Trump is also furious because he was under the oppression. Apparently when the US attacks anybody, for whatever reason, 80% of the public just jumps up and, and does a dance. And he has now learned that, oh, wait, my numbers have actually gone down. And I think there was a poll that showed 48% of Americans not only don't like the war, but are think it's going poorly. So like, I mean, it's like, yeah,

Luke (3:41)

like he's going to say, you should be charged with treason just for accurately reporting things.

Brenna Perez (3:47)

Yeah.

Tim (3:47)

Oh, yay for me.

Luke (3:49)

Hang you.

Brenna Perez (3:52)

The, well, the, the funny thing is, like, if the United States is attacked. Yeah. No nations will jump up and, and help it. It's just that, and historically, a lot of the times when the US has attacked nations have jumped up and helped it. And you know, as a Spaniard myself, I can attest to the fact that that brings a cost. Right. Like, we had our worst terror attack on our soil. My community was affected. You know, I had teachers that didn't they luckily, you know, no one lost their life, but they didn't come into school that day because of Spain's involvement in, you know, in Iraq, in following its ally to war based on false pretenses. You know, there is a cost to being an American ally and I think, you know, countries are figuring that out, unfortunately.

Tim (4:48)

Wait, are you saying that countries don't like it when we lie to them about why we're going to war and have them bring their, bring everybody with them? That's not a good strategy.

Luke (4:57)

Very reasonable, Tim.

Zach (4:59)

It's so stupid. I, I, I, I think, like, it's, I don't Know, it's one of those things where like, I want to see how far our power. Because the only reason the allies even stay on our side with Trump doing all this is because of the insane amount of leverage we have economically and militarily. But this is going to show us just how far that actually goes because at a certain point these countries are going to look at us and be like they're more of a liability than an asset. And I think we're, we're kind of. That balance is starting to get real wonky for a lot of people. So like, my biggest concern is who the fuck takes our position if that ends up happening. It's probably not a, not a good situation.

Tim (5:37)

Well, I could tell you who on the, on the pro democracy side it seems, and this isn't a one to one, but they're looking at Canada.

Zach (5:46)

Yeah.

Tim (5:46)

And Carney and in who's the prime minister there. And like hearing more and more of them shower praise on him instead of saying anything to us. Now obviously it's not the same thing, but yeah, you know, like I guess Donald Trump telling everybody in Naito that they suck and they don't pay enough money to be in. It was not a good strategy when you decided to go to war with Iran and then wanted their help and they all went, nope. No. The problem with. Well, the problem with this war is it actually doesn't take that much for Iran to keep it going. No, they just like have to lob some rockets and some bombs at the oil tankers every once in a while. Like they. There was one yesterday, the day before and there hadn't been one for five days, but it's enough to like keep one. Why would a tanker with, you know, the crews few dozen or whatever, why would they go through like risking their crew's lives for that? So like it's very easy for them to just grind us into the ground, which is why they're talking about ground troops now, which is terrifying.

Luke (6:43)

Director of Counterterrorism resigns and says the whole reason we're there is because Israel finally found a president that's dumb enough to follow them into a war with Iran.

Tim (6:51)

I mean, that is absolutely correct. His name is Joe Kent. Joe Kent. Joe Kent. He works, worked for Tulsi Gabbard who also before she joined the Trump administration was theoretically very anti war. I would call her a scam artist and whatever. She also used to believe that you could shock the gay out of people.

Zach (7:11)

What?

Tim (7:12)

Yeah, she was an electroshock therapy, conversion therapy believer. They, I Mean, her dad has a cult. It's a cult in Hawaii and it's very anti gay, and they used to believe in electroshock therapy. And she changed her mind when she ran and was a Democrat. But like, that was always a mirage for this, like, right wing bent that she's. That she's got. But her deputy, the director of the Office of Counterterrorism, left for this. So, you know, it's not going too well for them.

Zach (7:41)

I think that that cult also, they eat the toenails of the leader.

Luke (7:46)

What the fuck?

Tim (7:47)

Wait, what?

Brenna Perez (7:47)

You're kidding?

Zach (7:48)

Yes, I'm not kidding. I remember seeing a whole thing. I'm looking it up right now because I want to make sure I'm not repeating some bullshit. But it came from a channel that has never. I've never seen it. Like, lies. I gotta look into it.

Tim (8:00)

I. I don't know if I want to know the answer.

Luke (8:03)

Donald Trump talked about how if Gavin Newsom has dyslexia, he shouldn't be president. That's the kind of shit that should be disqualifying from holding political office.

Tim (8:10)

So that. So that's another one of those.

Brenna Perez (8:12)

Well, he did say Gavin Newsom is president

Luke (8:17)

with learning disabilities. Yeah.

Tim (8:20)

And that was one of the things, actually, I think we had on the list yesterday of things that are kind of flying under the radar. But, yeah, Donald Trump basically just attacked the entire neurodivergent community and. Because he wanted to make some stupid joke about Gavin Newsome, because this Gavin is dyslexic. Is that correct?

Brenna Perez (8:37)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tim (8:39)

And, you know, then I think Gavin put out a very nice, like, statement that was basically like, to everybody, everyone who's dyslexic, like, you are not less than others. You are, you know, you are just as good as anybody else. But then he did do a. He did one of his fake Trump.

Luke (8:55)

He's the president tweets.

Brenna Perez (8:56)

Yeah.

Tim (8:57)

But, yeah, like, Donald Trump apparently thinks if you're dyslexic that you are not capable of. Of holding a job.

Brenna Perez (9:03)

Right. Which is ironic.

Luke (9:05)

I think if you're a rapist, you shouldn't be the president.

Tim (9:08)

Sorry, sorry, what?

Brenna Perez (9:09)

Brenner? No, I'm just saying it's ironic because he famously, like, can't read very well himself. You know, I just. It's projection, as always.

Zach (9:17)

Right?

Tim (9:18)

Always and always with maga. Right. It's always projection.

Luke (9:21)

And Trump doesn't have to have to get brought into him on one page.

Tim (9:24)

That's all he'll.

Zach (9:25)

Yes.

Luke (9:25)

Is one page.

Tim (9:26)

Yeah. He won't read. He won't read a briefing unless it's one page and there have to be charts and graphs.

Luke (9:31)

Jesus wept.

Tim (9:32)

But.

Zach (9:33)

But a dyslexic person all the time now too. Like, that's the other piece. Like, I don't know if you watched, you know, J.D. vance and the Oval yesterday. Trump is like struggling to stay awake.

Tim (9:41)

Oh, it happened again yesterday.

Zach (9:42)

Yes, it happens all the time.

Tim (9:44)

Like every day.

Luke (9:45)

About 2pm it's time for grandpa's nap.

Tim (9:47)

Well, and did you see the photo? I think it was with either the Irish President or the Irish Prime Minister yesterday with St Patrick's Day. His hand is still all caked with that like, oh, yeah, makeup. And it's like so pronounced.

Luke (9:58)

It's like book six of Harry Potter when Dumbledore gets his hand all up.

Tim (10:03)

That's exactly what's happening with the Horcrux.

Brenna Perez (10:08)

It's the Horcrux, that's what it is. I wonder if they're giving him like IVs or something like that.

Tim (10:13)

I think so.

Zach (10:14)

Like in his hand. It could be. I don't know. It's also like he's Also what, almost 80. He could just knock that shit on his table and boom.

Luke (10:22)

It's from shaking hands, Zach.

Tim (10:23)

Well, that's what they said it was. Shaking hands.

Zach (10:25)

Vigorously shaking hands.

Tim (10:27)

Yeah, vigorously. Because he's such a man.

Luke (10:30)

He does his stupid bullshit tug of war. If an 80 year old man did that shit with me, I'd push him over. I wouldn't have absolutely none of that.

Tim (10:37)

Get the fuck out of here. Well, have you, Luke, you may not remember the. Zach might remember this, but do you remember there was a Red Sox Yankees game, I think it was 2004, the year the Red Sox won the World Series for the first time. And there was a brawl at Fenway park because the. Each team was throwing at each other. At Don Zimmer, who was like this ancient coach for the Yankees. He was like in his 70s, charged at Pedro Martinez, who is like my size, like 5, 10, like, is a stick. And like Pedro, like tossed him on the ground. So that's when you say old man getting thrown on the ground. That's exactly what I think I do remember that. Maybe we'll have to have Kyle put the.

Zach (11:15)

Put in the actual clip of Pedro

Tim (11:17)

chucking him on the ground. Because I watched it live and I was like, oh God. Oh my goodness, Don Zimmer and Pedro Martinez. But talking about being a man. Here's my pivot.

Luke (11:33)

Good work, good work.

Tim (11:34)

There is. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Oh, there is a new documentary out called Manosphere on Netflix which was produced by Louis. Louis Thoreau, who is actually, what's his face's cousin, Justin Thoreau, the actor. Because I did a video last night, I called him Justin Thoreau, and I was like, oh, no, no. But they're actually related. But he's a famous documentary. Yeah, they are cousins. Because I had to look it up after I, you know, I was actually trying to find his. His email address because I want him to come on our show because it would be very important. Turns out it's not easy to find

Luke (12:05)

him doing Internet stalking.

Tim (12:08)

Hey, anything for the show, right? So anyways, Brenna, did you watch it?

Brenna Perez (12:13)

I did. Yes.

Tim (12:14)

You watched it, Luke watched it, and Zach watched half of it.

Luke (12:18)

I want to hear no attention span.

Tim (12:20)

I want to. Well, I had a hard time getting through it, but I want to hear from the woman on our panel first about what she thought about that train wreck of a documentary.

Brenna Perez (12:32)

Well, I actually, I posted something this morning saying the thing that struck me the most was this kind of revelation that so much of it comes down to daddy issues.

Tim (12:43)

Yep.

Brenna Perez (12:44)

Just as, you know, the irony of that being an accusation that gets flung at women all the time, especially ones that they consider, you know, sluts or, you know, promiscuous. It's just like, oh, you must have daddy. It's like it is, you know, the biggest projection, I think, you know, at its core, as so much of the hate is it's, you know, it all comes from some seed of insecurity. They need to hate someone else more than they hate themselves. And so they have built this system by which, like, men have to prove themselves to them. And they're devaluing women despite the fact that it's most likely at least one woman, their mother, that actually stuck around and loved them unconditionally. And, and it's just this, you know, blame game of. Of wanting to measure up to someone who never cared about them and, you

Tim (13:39)

know, kind of pushing well, and for those just. I should have set the table at the beginning. But this documentary follows. I think it's three. They're really right wing content creators who use masculinity as their, like, their power over these guys. And they basically say, like, you don't need to listen to women. You don't need to listen to society. Listen to us, because we are buff and young and rich, and we can show you how to do that. But of course, in the documentary, you know, there's. There's Two, two guys who are obsessed with this one creator. And when you hear their story, it's like, yeah, I moved to Miami two, two months ago to like chase that. Get that bag or whatever the hell they say. And the 47 year old probably shouldn't.

Luke (14:26)

No, it doesn't fit very well.

Tim (14:28)

But, but there and then it's like, oh, but I was sleeping in my car the time. Like it's, it's all a scam. But like, I think the, like, what we have to talk about is why is it so appealing? Because that's the scary part. These three idiots, I.

Luke (14:42)

It.

Tim (14:42)

I don't really care about them. But you watch guy after guy and boy after boy, right? Like, just mob these guys wherever they go. They love them.

Zach (14:51)

I, I think like a huge percentage of the appeal, I think is, is something that gets done not only in this, but just across the board in like, right. Wings is like the, the centerpiece of it is actually something that everybody can agree on. Like, for example, being like healthy and fit and all that shit, that's a positive thing. But then they warp it and make it this totally other monstrous thing. They do that repeatedly. So, like, you get to the core of like all this shit that like, I want money, I want to be fit, I want to be with women, all that stuff. Like, that's all appealing at its ground basis level. And they kind of hide in this place where like, hey, we're not saying anything crazy. We just want you to have this cool shit. And it's like you're saying the craziest shit. You're just trying to make it seem normal by going, who wouldn't want this? Like, that seems they're very good salesmen of that shit.

Luke (15:37)

And they add to that that they're. That the opposite side doesn't want them to have that they're like, the left doesn't want you to have money. They don't want you to be fit. They hate you. If you're attractive.

Zach (15:45)

Yes, they want. So they poor and they want you

Tim (15:48)

fat, ugly and poor. Well, the other part that I think is super appealing to them, which also appeals to Maga, is that the message is essentially, your lot in life is not your fault. Right, Right, Right what? Your lot in life is not your fault. And if you follow us, we will show you the path to glory. And one of those guys in particular, it's like part of it's this. He gets a cut off of every. He has a sponsorship with this like financial, like a robinhood. It's not robin Hood, but it's like a Robin Hood style thing. It's like, follow my stock tips and you will be loaded. And then of course, Louis puts like $500 into that, and he's like, in two months, it was like all gone. And that and that and that tool that, that tool that they used, he said was like, it was like a two star in the app store or something. Like, it's like all a scam. But these guys keep, they get, they're growing and growing and growing and like, there is an appeal there. But, like, how do we, how do we start to chip away at that? Because if we don't, like, you know, we saw the demographic shifts in 2024. The Democrats lost young men. Now we've seen some reverses with like, some men of color, but not white men. So, like, what, what do we need to do to like, get these guys to realize that they're being scammed and, and, and there's not like, there's no value in what those guys are peddling to them.

Luke (17:06)

I don't think scam scamming is the angle. I think shaming is the angle.

Zach (17:12)

Like, we need to shame them or

Luke (17:13)

like, they're not necessarily the people following them, but the people that are like, up top, like, clavicular. The dude who's hitting himself in the face with a hammer.

Tim (17:23)

Talk about that again. Because we talk about what that is. Because I know we talked about it

Luke (17:26)

last episode, but like on the last episode, but his whole stick, like, he wants this just like chiseled jawline like Gavin Newsom. And he literally took a hammer to his own face or claims he did to, like, make micro breaks in the jawbone so that it would fuse harder and make his jawbone more pronounced.

Brenna Perez (17:45)

Yeah.

Zach (17:46)

Twisted dude.

Tim (17:48)

Brenna, I am, I, I, I am loath to make you the representative of women. So I'm not trying to do that here, but like, the, I'm trying to find the right way to phrase this it up.

Zach (18:01)

Do I like that?

Tim (18:02)

Do what? As a. You watching this? Like, do you know any women that are like, this appeals to.

Luke (18:09)

Oh, no, I'm gonna bet no.

Brenna Perez (18:12)

No. But clearly there are some women. It does, right? Because there are women in the documentary, though. I do love that. You know, it seems, it seems clear that they were sort of sold one version or behind closed doors, they were maybe assured of something. I was like, no, no, baby, you, you really are the one for me. Whatever it was that was laid bare or, you know, the contrary was laid bare. But I do think you Know, I think even beyond, because the left also talks about this thing of like, your lot in life is not your fault, to, you know, borrow your description of it. And ironically, the right is all about personal responsibility. So this is like a weird hybrid of it of like, you're a victim of everything, but it's your fault if you don't. Do you know something about it? Which, like, sure, but I do think there's also this sort of this sense of belonging that, you know, I think it goes hand in hand with this whole like male loneliness epidemic. But it's this like self fulfilling prophecy, it seems, because it's like, come in here to this group, you'll belong with us. It's just gonna be men being men with each other, but then they make each other feel like shit. And it's all like, you were not good enough. You know, this, you know, everything is your fault. That doesn't go for you, like, well, for you. The world doesn't love you. If you don't have all these things, you don't measure up. You are low value. So it's like, it's this very sort of like, lonely group to be in, at least from the outside that, you know, I couldn't imagine. Not that I can't imagine. Right. There are groups, especially when you're younger as women, like frenemies. Right. That you like. You're in these friendship groups and really there's like bullies in there that just want to put you down every chance they get. That exists for sure for women. But I think that we have more options where we're like, you know what, this sucks. And we're able to find friendships that maybe don't do that. And I don't know. Yeah. But I am curious, like, I hear a lot about women who have seen this documentary and I haven't really seen that many men talk about it, you know, publicly and stuff.

Zach (20:27)

So, I mean, it gives men a terrible name too. Like, I think that that's the part

Luke (20:32)

that they don't need any help with that, Zach. They do it just fine on their own.

Tim (20:36)

I think.

Zach (20:36)

Like, I think that's the chat, like, for me personally. Like, I'm obviously a little bit out, out of the left wing community to some degree in a lot of my stances. Like, I look at this like, attack on men as one of the central reasons why this exists. Like, Luke, you saying there, right there, like, men don't have to. Like, the average guy I don't think is a bad guy. Like, I think there's A bunch of horrible men out there, don't get me wrong. But I think like being a guy has become for a lot of people like a very quick trick trigger. Like men suck. And it's like that's not a helpful way to make this get better. Like the manosphere exists a lot because of that mentality. And like that's not a thing people in the left tend to say, but it's the truth. Like this whole men need to lock in and get together and be strong men is because they do feel like hey, we're being kind of attacked and it's bullshit. Like those men deserve to be attacked. The manosphere fucking grifter fucks, they deserve it. But the average man is just a dude trying to survive most of the time. Like that is not usually the standard perception of men these days. And I think that's a problem.

Tim (21:37)

So I think I have a slightly different take on this and I think that this is actually a, A, a cause of essentially conservatives destroying the middle class over the past 40 years. I'll tell you why. So like when in the 1980s Ronald Reagan started to drop taxes for rich people, that's when trickle, trickle down economics started and that's when wealth inequality exploded. We have always told men forever that they are providers and that if they, they have to be married, successful, two and a half kids, a house, two cars, and that's the American dream. Pension with a company. A lot of that is gone now. A lot of like, but like a 30 year old being able to buy a house right now, not likely. Like the average age of someone buying their first home is skyrocketed as well. I think that this is filling that void. And instead of, instead of blaming millionaires, billionaires and the conservative class, they have like this. At the same time there's also been more equality for women, equality for people of color, gay people, trans people. And these things have kind of come together and that's why you hear them talking about woke ideology.

Zach (22:51)

Yeah, I mean that's, that's the fringe, right? Like they're in that whole, like it's woke, it's. But like in the end, like I can't fringe, I'll tell you, I mean I don't have a single male in my life that is upset about how like equality has gotten better for other, for you know, people of color and women. Like, I, like, I just don't like, I. From a draw numbers perspective those people exist, but I don't think that they're like 50 or 30 even percent of men, I think the majority of men look at it and go, great, I'm glad that this is all working out for everybody. Like I have yet. And I have Republican friends, MAGA friends who think what I'm saying. Like it. I, I think we are to a certain degree in a bubble because we're all left leaning people and we hear a lot of left leaning ideology. When we hear from the right, it tends to be the more fringe crazy shit. The average person is not upset about this stuff where it seems like we think they are.

Luke (23:44)

I'm going to disagree.

Tim (23:45)

Do those.

Zach (23:46)

Well, what's the data to disagree with? Like is it like, show me, tell

Tim (23:49)

me why you're talking.

Luke (23:50)

You're talking anecdotally. You don't know anybody your life that says that. I was at the gym two days ago and someone referred to a new video game protagonist as a DEI hire because the, the main protagonist is a female Japanese woman. And I said, what do you mean by that? And he goes, well, you know, nobody wants to play as her. People want to play as a real man. And I said, I'm gonna buy the game, I'm gonna play the game. And he's like, well, I know a bunch of people that aren't because you know, she doesn't even, she's not even attractive. And I was like, oh, okay, so you're just like a real big piece of then.

Zach (24:21)

I'm not saying those people don't exist. I'm saying that I don't think it's even close to the majority of people.

Brenna Perez (24:26)

Well, I, and I'm gonna also push back with some anecdotal stuff in that I, I even hear that and hints of that on more like moderate Democrat sides sometimes where they're like, oh yes, this is all terrible, terrible, but you know, we're talking boomers here. But you gotta admit that the WOKE stuff went too far. And it's like, I think it is normalized to. I don't think it's that fringe for people to be like, well no, no, I'm not anti. Well, obviously, obviously all these things are good. It's good that people have more rights. But like, you gotta admit that it's going a little too far. And I think that's just like a way of softening it. And just you know, also as a woman, not to pull that card, but like even before this conversation of wokeness really and we started using that word, you would find instances of like allies supposedly, like, you know, the number of times I've heard a man Say I'm the biggest feminist ever, you know, would buy me a mansion. But, like, it's like the. Even those guys, as soon as there's, like, a situation where they perceive that a woman got something that either they or one of their friends wasn't, or there's like, any sort of, like, you know, little twinge on their insecurity, it starts coming out a little bit of like, well, you know, it's. It's getting harder for. For men to get jobs these days, or. And it's subtle, but I think that. That. I think it's very pervasive. It just sounds slightly different. And to your. Well, to your point of, like, the. The men are bad sort of thing, I think I hear you on that. As a white woman who had to come to America and learn a lot about race and racism in America, I can empathize with hearing, oh, white people suck and feeling this sort of insecurity about it, feeling some sort of way about it. But I was given the tools by friends and people around me to hear that and not take it personally and. And to hear that and to now also be like, yeah, white people suck. Like, we fucking suck. And I wish that that was more the conversation on the men's side instead of, you know, instead of this validation of people trending more to the left, being like, yeah, hearing that sucks. Yes, it's ridiculous. Yes, it goes too far being like, well, hold on. Okay. Yes, we. We feel like that hurts to hear, but maybe let's unpack why it's being said. Maybe let's figure out how not to take it personally. Maybe let's have conversations so that we can hear this and turn it into something productive rather than, you know, turn it into a reaction that starts escalating into what we're saying now.

Zach (27:15)

Yeah, no, I think that's right. And I think for me, like, the problem I have, and this is a problem that is not just in this space, it's pretty much across all of politics in general, is the broad generalization of these statements. Right? Like, saying men suck is a very, like, holy shit. I mean, like, yes, some men really suck. Some kind of suck. It's a spectrum, right? Some are great. It's a. It's a mixed bag. It's a dangerous statement to throw out this broad thing against one giant group because, like, yes, same thing as white people. Like, white people have done despicably horrendous things. Does that mean that all white people suck just based on the basis that they're white? No, but it does mean that there's things we need to like, actually get in and unpack. Like you're saying. I. My arguments is centrally using these broad statements as a means to like, show our position politically is actually doing damage outside of the core group of people that we are aligned with politically because most people don't pay attention the way we do. So that's how this like, WOKE shit ends up becoming problematic. It's not Democrats who are frustrated by. It's people in the middle hear this and go, this is too.

Luke (28:15)

Seems to work all right for the other side, though.

Zach (28:17)

Not the other side doesn't have like, it's less. It's a. It's a very different group of people that they're trying to put. Put that thought into. You know what I mean?

Tim (28:25)

But, but why do you think the right uses WOKE all the time?

Zach (28:29)

Like, why do they use. Like, why do they attack WOKE ideology?

Tim (28:32)

Why did. Yeah. Why are they using that phrase? And why are they continuing to. Because we don't use it.

Zach (28:37)

No.

Tim (28:38)

Why are they doing it if it's. If it's not to push back on other groups of people getting more rights?

Zach (28:43)

Oh, it is from the, from the right perspective. Like, I'm more talking about what Brenna's talking about, where it's like there are people in the middle who are kind of like, well, maybe it went a little bit too far. Like, that's where the danger lies in my mind. Like, when you have these people who are looking at it and going, well, maybe it did go too far. Those are the people we need to talk to better and have them understand, like, there's a gradation to all of this. That's like, the right's going to keep doing this is what they.

Tim (29:06)

So what? So what. What went too far?

Zach (29:08)

I'm not saying anything went too far.

Tim (29:09)

No, but what would. What were. What are they thinking? Like, what is it?

Zach (29:13)

I don't know. I mean, like, I, I can even speak people in my.

Luke (29:15)

They've been lied to and said that the DI stuff was too far. That's. I mean, that's the prime example, right? Is that they, they. They go to that because they've been told that DI was this mystical system where black people shot to the front of the line and women shot to the front of the line and everybody else got. And it's not how it works. And. But they've been lied to and that's how. To them. That's how it works when you talk to them.

Tim (29:35)

That's how it works. And I would say on the, on the men's sucking thing, I mean, I just looked this up. One in four women in America have. Are they either were there was an attempted rape or a rape.

Zach (29:49)

Yeah, 20.

Luke (29:50)

Let me follow that up. Let me follow that up, because I had to Google it, because this is the stat that always makes it work for me is 14% of men say they've raped somebody.

Zach (29:59)

Jesus Christ.

Luke (30:00)

32% of men say that they've coerced somebody to have intercourse by holding them down. It's the same fucking thing.

Zach (30:08)

Yeah, that's the same thing.

Tim (30:09)

So they just don't want to say the word.

Luke (30:11)

Exactly. At best, 32% of men suck.

Tim (30:14)

And that's itself. That's self reported, right? It's self. A lot of people will never say that.

Luke (30:19)

And you figure then you, at least somebody in your life has done that, and if you know, and you don't say anything, then you also suck. And so we're really trending towards that. More than 50% of men suck majorly.

Zach (30:31)

Yeah. I mean. Yeah.

Tim (30:33)

Okay, go ahead.

Brenna Perez (30:34)

I also, I just, I think you're asking us to say, like, well, that language hurts to hear, you know. Yes. And so maybe we need to talk to the people who are using this and whatnot. And, and again, I'm saying, like, maybe we need to, we need men talking to fellow men. Like, Zach, you understand where this is coming from? And as much as you're like, well, that's too much, and it's not hashtag notallmen, like, you are capable of understanding that sentiment. And maybe instead of like, asking people like, like me to, to stop saying stuff like that and, you know, just women, you know, on the whole, to stop saying that. Even other men will say that. Maybe start, you know, speaking to your fellow men and be like, listen, this is how we can hear this in a way that's not gonna, like, it's not gonna have us react this way. Like, you know, there are tools to, to not take it so personally and to see it. And, you know, to, to give one example, right after the election, you know, obviously white women, at least based on exit polls, went like, you know, a slight majority, I think it was like 51, 52% for. Voted for Trump right over comma. And so there was a lot of obviously backlash from especially women of color, you know, saying like, well, white women, this is on you. And like. And I, of course, I was like, well, it's not on me. But, you know, I was like, I, I, I drove, you know, eight hours Each way to PA to knock on doors for Kamala, you know, And I worked my ass off, you know, but then I realized, like, okay, but if I'm walking around the street and I see a white woman, 50% chance she betrayed me too, you know, And. And that helped me understand it too. Of like. Or just like, re. Kind of come off that defensive thing of like, well, of course, you know, 50. It's. We betrayed. We betrayed everyone, you know, and it's not me personally, but, like, there's. There's ways of, like, thinking through it and. And helping your friends maybe, like, develop these tools, because it's not going to stop at men suck, right? There's going to be other things that they hear that make them feel, like, hurt that they're going to want to react to. And I think giving your. Your guy friends, like, these tools to hear things like that and really start to, like, you know, digest them in a different way in a. In a more healthy way is going to help, like, with a lot of stuff.

Zach (33:05)

You know, I don't disagree with that. I think the challenge I have with it is, like, I don't think it's. It's on. Like, men are in a position where, like, they need to be able to hear this shit and just move on. Like, I don't think this is a. You know, that's not a bad point. But I think the point that I have with this. It's a problem is, like, it's a problem I have with a lot of the language the left uses. Like, what is the value tactically of saying men suck? What is. What is the movement to try to make men suck less? Getting from that statement. That's where I start to disconnect from it because I'm like, look, all the people who think men suck right now will hear it and go, great, Sounds good. Zero. Other people are hearing it and getting the result you want from them. So that's where I'm sort of pushing on. This is like, a lot of men do suck. I'm not arguing that they clearly do. But what do you get tactically out of. It's an attack. And that's like, going all the way back to my initial point of, like. All it creates is an, like, the polar opposite alternative, which is the manosphere. It doesn't create conversation in the middle where you're converting people to your side. You're antagonizing. So, like, how do you not antagonize it? Also still call out men for being. For misbehaving in the ways that they do. That's where I'm trying to get.

Brenna Perez (34:13)

Sure. But most people aren't thinking tactically.

Zach (34:17)

I know that's the problem.

Brenna Perez (34:18)

You know what I mean? Well, but that's the thing. It's like, you know, and I think the people who are thinking tactically aren't using that language as much. You know what I mean? They're being very careful. And so, you know, but. But like, we're talking about just normal everyday people and like a normal everyday conversation. And. And also I, I hate to point out, like, the men suck is in and of itself a reaction. Right. And like, women have always been spoken about in ways like that and still are. Women are still, you know, we are. It is. And it's normalized. Right. There's so many things that are just like, just baked into our culture that put women down as a whole. And so, you know, but you don't see us creating a manosphere. Like, the worst thing we kind of came up with was saying, well, men suck, you know, like, so. So to them, Bl that and say, well, well, when men hear that, they're going to go, you know, start the manosphere. It's like, well, okay, that's. I don't think it's.

Zach (35:18)

I'm not, I'm not trying to blame. To be clear. Like, for my perspective is less. Because I am a very, like, my whole thing that I like. And this is the tactics and the strategy of the whole thing. So it's. For me, that's really where I'm focused. And like, I just look at it and go, there's got to be a smarter way to do this where you can get all the results you want, because I'm behind all three of you on the intent of what you're doing. I just look at it and go, I think the movement is handling the optics of it kind of fucked up. And it ends up creating fringe movements that get a lot of attention. And that's where we're at today.

Tim (35:46)

But let me, you know.

Zach (35:47)

Fair.

Luke (35:47)

But let me.

Tim (35:48)

I understand you're doing it from the tactical perspective, but, like, I think the challenge is that every woman has a friend that has been sexually assaulted. Every woman, when she goes out at night, has to wonder, can I put my AirPods in or not? Because I have to make sure that I know who is around me at all times because I am not safe by myself. That applies to rural areas. That applies to cities. Like, if they're on the subway, I can't be on a subway train. If there's only one or two people, because I don't know who those people are, we don't have any of that. Right. Like, we are not worrying about that. So. But like, for. But imagine, you know, it's very hard to put yourself in that position, but like, to think tactically with. That's your entire life every time you leave.

Zach (36:27)

Not what I'm describing, though. Like, I understand. Like, that is all true. Well, but what I'm in. I. What I'm talking about is the larger conversation, not about the specific moments. Right. Those specific moments are very different. It's not. I'm not trying to say that those things don't exist. What I'm saying is the way in which the movement we're trying to make where that's not the case is talking about this is not helping the movement advance. That's the problem that I have with it.

Luke (36:49)

Like, I know about Zach wants somebody to, say, make rapists afraid again.

Zach (36:55)

I mean, that's kind of good, actually, but.

Tim (36:57)

Well, I mean, actually, I'd be. Yes, that is good. Sorry.

Luke (37:00)

Go ahead, Zach.

Tim (37:00)

I gotta make a call.

Zach (37:01)

Like, my thing is, like, the way this changes is winning fucking elections having left people on the left winning elections who change policy, who get in control and take it away from these people. And we're not going to fucking win if we don't analyze why our tactics aren't growing our movement. That's my whole reasoning for it. So, like, for me, I'm trying to get to the same place you guys are. I'm just not looking at it in this granular level. It's more like we need to win first, and then we can figure out how to take control of all this shit and actually make movements that. That continue to grow and make women safer, people of color safer.

Tim (37:33)

Right, Sure.

Brenna Perez (37:34)

I guess I just see. I see this as being. I mean, there's this discussion. I forget what prompted it, this idea. This is like a discussion about, like, culture, you know, this is like a cultural thing. And culture begets politics. Yes. Sometimes politics then begets culture. But I think it's important because, like, part of winning is a shift in culture, you know, I don't disagree with you, Zach, but I. I think that even. Even if we get, like, a Democrat in office, you know, in the presidency and, like, take over Congress and whatnot, like, that's not going to fix the. The manosphere, you know what I mean? All that anger is still going to. And in fact, there's likely going to be a lot of angry manosphere people like reacting negatively to that. So I think that's why, like part of the work has to be on the cultural side, you know, for those wins.

Zach (38:32)

I agree with that completely. I, it's, it's not like you can't, you have to do both at the same time. Right. I just, what I don't want is the cultural thing to start impeding the winning thing because that's sort of what happened in a lot of like, a lot of this like WOKE shit. You know, like it gave ammunition to the right to amp it way up and use it as fodder to win. Because that's kind of what they did. They kind of want. The left is all a bunch of fudgeing lunatic, blue haired idiots. They're saying this, this, this and this. They're like every. Because I live in Georgia, I saw all of Trump's attack ads. They were fucking just drilling that point is all about trans people and like all that stuff that nothing was policy oriented.

Tim (39:06)

But what did we do? But what did the left do to make that happen? What specifically did? By saying trans people deserve the same rights?

Zach (39:13)

No, what they didn't. It's not, it's not what they did, it's what they didn't do. They didn't, they didn't fight back against it. Correct.

Tim (39:19)

Okay, so, but, so Republicans made up this thing.

Zach (39:22)

Yes.

Tim (39:23)

Right. And we did a bad job of pushing back. Okay, that, that I agree with because I was going to say like they created this thing and if you ask any of them what WOKE means, they can't do it.

Zach (39:34)

No.

Tim (39:34)

Like they don't know the definition. And the definition when you tell people is not a big deal. It just means that you understand the plight of somebody else.

Zach (39:42)

Right.

Tim (39:43)

And their different situations.

Luke (39:44)

You have a silly little thing called empathy.

Tim (39:46)

That's it. Right. Well, and I, I actually, they're pitching. I also. No, that's not what, no, there's, they're. No, they are basically saying that gay teachers are going to turn your kids gay.

Zach (39:55)

Yeah.

Tim (39:56)

That trans people are going to sex school. Trans. Trans. Basically. They're just saying it. Trans people are going to sexually assault your children in a bathroom. These are the things that they're saying. We didn't do any of that.

Zach (40:06)

No, 100%. There's. What they did was exactly what. Both sides do the same thing with like wildly different levels. What they did is they went and looked at the left fringe and what everybody thinks that teeny tiny bit. And it's like, what are you talking about? Like there are People on the left who believe, like, very, very, very progressive stuff that the average person in the middle and the right would look at and go, that's a little. That's a lot. And then they took it and amped it up 10x and went, this is what every person left it. And the left kind of went like, well, we didn't say that. And got pummeled. That's the problem. You know, we. There has to be a strategy to fight back against that in a way that it's not like, well, we don't actually believe that. And then we move on, because that's what we did. And we got polarized.

Luke (40:48)

I don't think the answer is by normal, by toning down the belief, though, right?

Zach (40:53)

Like, no, definitely not. It's the opposite. I think it's about how you describe the belief. Like, Tim's description of it is exactly right. Of, like, what we're. We're just basically trying to make sure everybody's okay. Like, that's it. Like, you just need to message on that way better than we're doing it right now, as opposed to, like, because all we do is play defense on this. Like, we all just like, no, we didn't say that. It's like, lean into it, say, well, we want to. We want to protect trans people. We want to protect this group. Like, that's our point, you know, like, if we did that, you would have had a lot more people going, oh, cool, I'm down with that. They just didn't get it because the right out messaged us. And that's how all this shit exists. That's how the manosphere exists, because it's a bunch of people preying on complete misinformation.

Tim (41:34)

Right? But these people also, I think, I mean, yes, we should do that, but the people in the manosphere and the people in that show, like, those people are racist and homophobic and transphobic and all of that. So if we do that and we say, which we should say, everybody deserves equal rights, whether you're a person of color, whether you're trans, whether you're disabled, whatever, those guys are going to go. They want to put them above you, regardless of what we say. But I think that. I think, like, the meta challenge, though, is that guys like us and guys who like us believe in those things need to be the ones that are stepping up and holding other men accountable. Which, let's be honest, has not really been a thing that men have done particularly well. You talk about locker room talk. We've all heard horrible Stories. When you look back 10, 20, 30 years ago and go, well, maybe not 30 for Luke, but, you know, not 30 for me. 30 for. I could do 30. But like, you, we all have heard horrible. And how many times have we gone, hey, that's up. Don't ever. If you're gonna do that, I don't want to hear from you. Never. Right. Like, I mean, maybe now, like, and now I have now, but. But still not nearly enough, right? Like, you look at, like, you know, if you. Anything related to sports or w. You know, the. The. The wrestling folks, all. There's all this, like, homophobic, anti. All this horrible shit. We don't hold ourselves accountable. And I think that's really the only way that we're going to solve this. I don't think it's like just yelling louder about equal rights. No, I think. I think, like, we have people who look like us and sound like us need to tell those people over and over and over again that that's not okay.

Zach (43:14)

I agree with that.

Brenna Perez (43:15)

And. And again, and I hate to, you know, sound like a broken record, give them the tools on how to receive some of that information, because that's the magic trick that the manosphere, I think, pulled off. It was modeling this way. Like, oh, when someone says this, hear it like this. When someone says that, it actually means this. And so it just trained these boys and these young men to hear things as an attack or to hear, you know, an attack as something personal. And it just reinforced that. And I think, you know, we just need more men modeling a better version of that. Modeling. Like, when I hear this, this is what I, you know, this is what I'm going to understand it at as. Like, when I feel this way, this is how I'm going to process it.

Zach (44:04)

You know, I agree with that. The biggest problem you run into with it is like, an actual generalization you can use against most men is men are much more reactive than women are. Like, men are going to hear something go, that's not true. Like, they're going to have that very, like, guttural reaction. So it's very hard to, like, especially young men, like, you know, 15.

Luke (44:21)

It's hard work.

Zach (44:22)

It's real. Like, but I. Is it. I don't even know. Like, if you're. I mean, this is going to sound bad. If you're an unintelligent young man, what are the odds that you're going to be able to even grasp the concept of these tools? I agree with the premise. For a lot of people, like, it's possible, but for, like, those young men that are really, like, getting just preyed on by these manosphere guys, do they even have the capability to use the tools even if we put it clear as day in front of them? Because it's sort of forcing them to do harder work. And, like, that's why the manosphere works, is they're giving them.

Luke (44:52)

It's literally the red pill or the blue pill, but they're not taking the pill. They think they are.

Tim (44:55)

Right, right, right.

Brenna Perez (44:56)

But I think also, I think it's. Yeah, sure, I think it's. It's a little bit infantilizing. I don't think we should infantilize men when they set up the patriarchy and are running like. Like, they're perfectly capable of. Of learning how to handle their emotions. You know what I mean? Like, and as much as, you know, you say, oh, well, men are more reactive and stuff. Not necessarily. Men are more openly reactive. Right. Men. Men are allowed to. To react more obviously. And, like, I think I. Something just fell out of my brain. Never mind. Just.

Zach (45:41)

That's a very fair point. Men are more like, we do have room to be okay. We have, like, owned it forever, so now we feel like, I could be angry if I want to be. Yeah.

Brenna Perez (45:49)

Actually. So I think the other thing is to. To use their language if you want to be like, well, we are more predisposed to reacting to stuff like that. Like, make that, like, show them how to take responsibility. Be like, well, men, we are more reactive because we're more easily triggered. Yeah. You know what I mean? Just, like, talk about it that way of like, well, we are. This whole thing about, like, oh, we find it fun to trigger people. Oh, they're so triggered because they want equal rights. You know, whatever. We men, if we're going to talk about how it's a little bit harder for us to. To manage our reactions to things that we gotta acknowledge. Well, you know, we get more easily triggered and, you know, and have that sort of, like, balance of like, it's a little bit embarrassing that we're allowing ourselves to just, you know, jump straight to anger and use that as an excuse to not take responsibility for our choices thereafter.

Luke (46:43)

Yeah, it's my shaming. Exactly.

Tim (46:45)

Yeah.

Zach (46:45)

Yeah.

Tim (46:46)

Well, Luke, you've. You've actually had anecdotal evidence of shaming people, and it's flipping them.

Zach (46:51)

Right.

Tim (46:51)

Like, you. I mean, you tell you, like, you've got.

Luke (46:53)

I mean, I've had several DMS from people that are like, you illustrated exactly what I. What thought I was doing. You just said it really mean and made me think about it. And I was like, all right, I could get behind that, because, like. But I saw the other day that Erica Kirk gave a speech, and she said, don't let anyone disenfranchise you because you are a young man. Especially a young white man.

Zach (47:16)

Oh, especially a young one.

Luke (47:18)

A young white male man. Which I was like, are they delivering the mail now or something? I'm real curious.

Brenna Perez (47:24)

Suddenly she's against the disbanding of the usps, you know?

Tim (47:27)

Yeah. Well, Luke. Luke, do you feel disenfranchised?

Luke (47:30)

No, not at all. I've never. I've never once.

Tim (47:32)

No, but she did say it. She did say it. And I think, like. I mean, I think that's part of the power of that, is that they just say, none of this is your fault. And I think, like, we are trying the ultimate infantilization.

Zach (47:43)

Hey, you're babying them with this. And like, I think. Yeah, to your. To your point, like, the things that have stuck in my head through my life, like when I was being taught lessons, it was almost always the. That worked was people being mean to me. Yeah. Because it just.

Luke (47:56)

There are moments I think back, I'm like, oh, my God, I can't believe I did that. And I'm so glad that somebody just verbally beat the.

Zach (48:04)

Out of it. Yeah. I think that, like, I think that men, like, even though it sounds awful, like men are very, like, impressionable in the sense of, like, if you're really mean to them, that will live in their head for a long time. And it will either it's. It's a risk because it bifurcates two ways. You either push them even further down the road that they were already going down out of spite, or it sits in there and festers and makes them change. It's one of the two most of the time. So it's pretty. It's at least 50% effective, probably.

Brenna Perez (48:29)

Well, I mean, maybe there's like the carrot and stick thing. Right? Like, again, it's. I mean, I don't think that's unique to men, obviously. You know, maybe to the degree. Right. But the whole reason women. Part of the socialization of women and why we behave more, you know, we're quieter, we're all these things is because of shame. Right? We. We are. We are shamed into so many of our behaviors from a very young age. And. And it's true that, like, just, like, evolutionarily, you know, we are a social species. Species. We take Our cues from the group we have evolved to, if someone is doing something that is harmful to the herd, to the group, we tend to reject them. Our brains are hardwired to feel reject and criticism as pain in theory, so that we correct our behaviors and perhaps do something that is more beneficial to the herd because that helps the survival of the species. Right. So we are all hardwired to hurt from bullying, from rejection, from shame because it is antisocial, it is harmful to the group. But we need also like that. That's how, you know, we, when talking about the manosphere as this sort of search for belonging and that self fulfilling sort of cycle, you know, there has to be, I think maybe like a way for men or men need to be practicing and modeling also the acceptance of good behaviors from each other. But, but the acceptance and the rewarding cannot be manosphere behaviors, you know what I'm saying? Like, it has to be like, yeah, be vulnerable. That's great. Yeah, you know, take it in stride. When you hear things like men suck, like that's great. You're like a, you are an ally to, that's acceptance, you know, and that's ultimately what all humans are kind of looking for just because we're hardwired to do that.

Zach (50:33)

Yeah, I, I, that's really, I'm curious. I agree with all that. And like I'm, I want to ask Luke this because like, at least as a, I don't know, Tim, are you a millennial? You're not a millennial, right? You're a Gen X. I'm not trying

Tim (50:44)

to insult, I am a boomer. I, no, no, I am not. I am a zennial, thank you very much.

Zach (50:50)

That's fair. Because like, as a millennial dad, especially like this, my group of like men at this age, we very much fall into line with what you just described, Brenna of like, we want to, we see vulnerability on the whole as a positive thing and that's why you see a lot of male, I see a lot of dads at my age being very vulnerable and very open and like, you know, caring parents and very like, it's a very different vibe. But Luke, I'm curious, being Gen Z, do you see that same trait in your generation or did it get fucked up by all this stuff? Because I do feel like millennials have tried to start to deliver on vulnerability being positive and a lot of like being open and emotional as being positive. But I don't know if that continued with your generation or not that I'll

Luke (51:38)

tell it the best Way to describe it is the dudes with girlfriends are vulnerable. Ones that don't have girlfriends aren't.

Tim (51:45)

So I. I have had all the

Luke (51:47)

time because I think a lot of the, like, women my age have because of parents. Like, you are like, that's the way it should be. I'm not going to accept something that.

Tim (51:57)

That.

Luke (51:57)

That sucks ass. That guy is a piece of. I'm not gonna accept that.

Tim (52:01)

Yeah, I wanna.

Luke (52:04)

Go ahead.

Tim (52:05)

I had an idea. So I was obviously part of white dudes for Harrison 2024. We were joking at one point. I want to get Brenna's take on this that we wanted to create a progressive dating app because we wanted to show men that, you know, if you want to be able to date somebody, you have to treat women with respect and kindness and empathy. And if it was like sort of a, like almost like a forcing mechanism, because there is one for the right, which actually is a grift and no women actually signed up for it. And the guys all. All paid money and then because they didn't get a trad wife. But do you think, like, something like that would work? Like, I just think about the cultural angle. It's like if you're going at like a man's like. Or a kid. Like a kid or like a young 20, something's like, basic. Like, they want to. They want to like date an attractive woman who's also nice and like, funny and like, want to be around like. But if it was only in one. You know, if it was all of the women were in the progressive one. Like, I wonder if that would actually change the behaviors or be like, oh, I can't be a piece of shit if I want to date somebody.

Brenna Perez (53:06)

My. I mean, I like it in theory and I think it's worth a try. Right? But I think that my immediate thought was like, well, men on the right already talk about pretending to be left to. Men on the right are already pretending.

Luke (53:21)

So many videos.

Zach (53:23)

Yeah.

Luke (53:23)

Of women talking about how they'll go on a few dates with a guy and then they'll be like, well, who'd you vote for? And they freeze up like every time.

Tim (53:30)

I've seen some TikTok videos about that. So they are. So the right actively knows. Actively wise.

Luke (53:35)

They know.

Brenna Perez (53:36)

Which by the way, is worth talking about as men. Like, that's. That is a point to push be like, hey, man, the reason all these men on the right have to pretend to be more progressive than they are or at least more, you know, less conservative than they are is because that's what women want. You know, you talk about how to get women. This is how you do it. But obviously in a way that's not like you should fake it, you know, like, because some of them, Some of them are saying that. Some of them are spreading that, like, oh, this is, you know, this is how to get like, libs or whatever.

Zach (54:06)

That should be the app name.

Tim (54:07)

It doesn't seem like a, Like a good. That doesn't sound like a good deal. That doesn't sound like a good strategy long term, though.

Luke (54:15)

Like, no, it's not.

Zach (54:16)

It's garbage.

Brenna Perez (54:17)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think. And also the other side to that is like, you know, I. I said this, this. I. This joke that I. I say all the time of like, if I had a dollar every time a guy said, I'm the biggest feminist ever, or, you know, I'm the biggest feminist ever. But, you know, even the most progressive men and this conversation is had when certain things come up can sometimes 10, like, it can sometimes turn out to be a disappointment. Everyone will disappoint you eventually for sure, but. But sometimes it does feel like a very, like, very performative when certain things kind of come out as, you know, as time goes on. And, you know, I've had friends. I had one friend, like, again, biggest, biggest feminist ever. You know, this. Totally always saying the right stuff, you know, whatnot. But then when pushing came to shove, I called someone out once at work, a guy, for saying something like somewhat misogynist, basically, like kind of blaming a woman for being too. Calling this actress basically a bitch and difficult to work with. And when I asked about it, and I was like, so what's the story here? You know, just, you know, I want to know. And I kind of pushed on it. He was like, well, the reality is the director's too much of an asshole and she's too woke to put up with his bullshit. And I was like, okay, so maybe that's how you should have put it, right? Like, maybe instead of saying she's difficult to work with and don't try to hire her, you should start with our director is difficult and he's an asshole, and she's too woke to put up with his bullshit. And this is another feminist, right? Another feminist. And he kind of was like, yeah. He walks out of the room, and my friend, my. My business partner at the time was like, you shouldn't have said that. I was like, you know, hold the fucking phone. You are. You are my ally. You are. Yeah, you're right. I shouldn't have said it. You should have, you should have pushed back on this and ask these questions.

Zach (56:21)

Right.

Brenna Perez (56:21)

And so, I mean, not to say, like, yes, I'm not saying I don't want to discourage progressive men, and I don't want to suggest that. That all men are lying or anything like that. It's just, you know, there's those. One of these things, like, women are going to be kind of skeptical sometimes or they're really gonna, you know, they're gonna be careful.

Luke (56:41)

Right.

Brenna Perez (56:42)

You know.

Tim (56:42)

Yeah, well, we, we have. I mean, there's very, there's a very clear example on our side where we have a lot of work to do, and that's with, with Hillary Clinton running for president. Like, I mean, I, you know, I talk to a lot of people who, men who are just like, I just don't like her. And it's like, yeah, but why, what is it? You don't believe the email stuff? Because that's right. So, like, take that out. I understand. You don't understand that. Why don't you like her? But you like Bill Clinton. Okay, what is the problem with Hillary?

Zach (57:12)

I mean, I can answer that question

Brenna Perez (57:13)

because I don't like her.

Zach (57:14)

I don't either. And it had nothing to do with

Tim (57:17)

the fact, well, this blew up in my face.

Zach (57:18)

Yeah, well, I mean, look, I, I think, like, Hillary Clinton is undeniably just like a relatively unfriendly seeming person. And you're. And Bill Clinton is a very friendly seeming person. Like, to me, it's like literally top level, where I'm just like, she seems smart, but kind of like. Yeah, and then he seems smart and.

Tim (57:32)

Right, but what does that mean, though?

Zach (57:34)

Nothing. It has, to me, it has no subtext because she just comes off like, you wouldn't want to hang out with her. Like, that's like, that's the only reason. Like, it has nothing to do with her being a female.

Tim (57:44)

And that makes you not want her to be president?

Zach (57:46)

No, I had nothing to do with their qualification.

Tim (57:49)

But that's what I'm talking about.

Zach (57:50)

Like, people were an evaluation of humans that.

Tim (57:53)

Oh, no, no, no, no.

Brenna Perez (57:54)

Great thing that you bring up, Zach. This. Sorry, Tim. No, no, just the, you know, the idea that she's not someone you'd want to hang out with. You know, the same thing was said about Kamala and, and that just like in the film industry, we talk a lot about the boys club and a lot of people are like, well, it's not. No, there's no boys club. It's not this. It's not, you know, I'm not sexist, whatever. It's just I. I hire my friends, and it's like, well, all your friends are men. And. And so there is, like, this. This degree to so much of the. The professional level and more, you know, political level and stuff comes down to what kinds of friends you have. And. And I think, you know, you know, we can talk about all the threads that. That add up to that. This idea that. And this propagation of this idea that, like, men and women can't be friends or that, you know, if. If men. If women are nice to men, they should make a move. And, you know, this. It puts us at odds in a way where men can never. Will never be able to imagine having a beer with a woman who's running for president, because they just don't do that with any women in their life, you know?

Tim (59:04)

Also, can we just officially put in the ground the, like, I like a candidate that I want to have a beer with.

Zach (59:11)

Yeah.

Tim (59:11)

No, because, like, do you know who. The one they used to say that about all the time? George fucking W. Bush. The alcoholic who doesn't drink, by the way, anymore, and basically snorted his way through his 20s.

Zach (59:24)

Yeah.

Tim (59:25)

We're like, I like that guy. I mean, there's nothing wrong with people getting clean. I don't mean that. But, like, people were like, fudge. Hillary Clinton, that bitch. And they're like, I like George W. Bush. I want to have a beer with him even though he murdered a million Iraqis.

Zach (59:38)

No, I get it. Right. I think the challenge, though, is, like, for the average person in America, if you just come off as, like, friendly and fun, you win. Like, that's it. Like, it's. It's that simple. Like, it's. No, it's not an analysis of, like, oh, but also, he did all this. The average person's like, I don't care. He seems like a nice guy, and that's it. They don't.

Tim (59:55)

Right, But. But for a woman, right, Like Hillary, for example, when she was trying to do health care in the 90s, the right. Turned her into a villain. They're like, well, who. How dare she? How dare she, like, get involved that. And it's like, yeah, I. I understand why Hillary doesn't have a giant smile on her face all the time and is trying to placate people. And I was actually real, like, loved seeing the deposition that she did where she just shredded everybody because she had finally dropped, which she had to put on an appearance of, like, not caring about that stuff. And then she finally like, eviscerated them. But, like, that's the disadvantage also of a woman being in politics is that, like, they're. They like it. It. They. It's like, they can't win. So, like, that's the sort of thing where, I mean, like, everybody thinks George Bush. And everybody keeps saying, I wish George W. Bush was back. And I'm like, what, you want the. You want to be lied into another war?

Zach (60:42)

No.

Tim (60:42)

Like, you want another economic catastrophe really quickly?

Zach (60:45)

I think that you're right, but I think a huge piece of it is, like, the average politician also just kind of sucks. Male or female. But, like, sure, I think, like, because I always hear, like, a woman. Women can't win. And I'm like, dude, if you had put, like, Michelle Obama in instead of Kamala Harris out, she would have won this last election. I don't care. Anybody said, like, she's likable, she's fun. People, like, they respond to her. It's like, the basics. The basis of success in politics is are you an enjoyable person to be around Potentially. That usually tends to be the thing. Like Trump, he's an anomaly, but like everybody else, it's the ad. Trump is different. But, like, even, like, Gretchen Whitmer, like, when.

Tim (61:20)

When.

Zach (61:21)

When Biden first dropped out, my thing was like, I want a primary, and I want Gretchen Whitmer because I think that she is fun, relatable. She's a badass. Like, she could have fudgeing killed it. Like, I didn't. Like, it didn't even compute to me to think about, like, well, her being a female is a liability. I'm like, I don't think it is, because in the end, I think it's actually an asset because she is a person, is awesome, and people will see that, and that will resonate, and she could win this fucking election. So, like, I think it does come down more to, are you just a person that resonates with people or not?

Brenna Perez (61:49)

You know, I mean, yes and no. Just also, I hear what you're saying, and I don't entirely disagree. I agree with you that, like, I agree with Tim. I'd love to put it to rest this idea that, like, we should elect people based on whether we think we can have a beer with them.

Zach (62:05)

Yeah. Yeah.

Brenna Perez (62:06)

At the same time, we do know that. That a significant portion of the population make their decision based on that. Or, like, that's it. That's a big factor. Right. And, like, yes, I think it helps if. If you. If yes, men and also women. Right. Like, we are not immune to those biases that, like, if, if we think that, that a woman who's running is a good hang. Yes, I'm sure it helps, but I don't know, like, you know, I've seen time and time again in, you know, in professional settings, you have equally, you know, qualified candidates. It's. It's usually gonna be the man that's picked. Right? Like, that's the issue. And so if you have, like, maybe. Maybe if. If the. The woman is like, insanely more relatable, it'll tip the scales in that favor. But if you had, you know, someone who's like, even comparable on. On, you know, who's like a man running against her, that it just. I don't think it's. It's enough. It's necessarily going to, like, automatically go her way, I guess.

Zach (63:11)

So you're pretty much saying if you had, like, a man and a woman who were, like, equally likable, you think the man would win because of the fact that he's a man.

Brenna Perez (63:20)

I think that a man is going to be more likable, naturally. I think he's going to have to do less to be seen as more likable. And then. And then also, once you get close, I think that, yeah, the, the scales aren't going to necessarily, like, break in her favor.

Zach (63:36)

I agree with that. It's. Yeah, it's. It's. Although, I don't know. I mean, I could see, like, I. It's just totally guessing. But like, I think, because you're right about the dynamic of, like, it's so much easier for a man to come off that way. When a woman shows up in the national stage and they're like, oh, look, she's great too. It's almost like, you know, like a novelty level where it's like, she's awesome and it gives her a lot more lift because, like, in the past, everybody's just like, oh, the guy's obviously going to be the more likable one. It's people like, somebody who can stand out from the, you know, from the packs, and maybe it'd be an asset, I don't know.

Brenna Perez (64:04)

But then it'll be turned into like, oh, well, she's a pick me. Or, oh, well, it's an code switching.

Luke (64:09)

Or she's doing. Yeah, she's putting on performance.

Tim (64:11)

Well, Kamala had that. I mean, the Kamala things is. Is tough because she got put in a tough position and she didn't have enough time. But. But they did that to her too. Like, oh, look, at her doing the silly dancing and, oh, her laugh isn't. Isn't genuine because that was the thing with her. Right. Like, the laugh is funny laugh, funny laugh. And, like, all these things. And then on Whitmer, who I agree is a total badass, what was the thanks she got? They tried to kill her. Like, the. Like a militia. A militia in Michigan plotted to kidnap and kill her. And there were. There were Republican sheriffs in those places that did barely anything for it. So, like, the message is, like, you know, it's. It's just a tough thing. The other thing I'll say about Michelle Obama, which I think people tend to forget, is that people love Michelle Obama because she's amazing. But once you become a candidate, it is a completely different game. You probably don't remember Fred Thompson.

Zach (65:05)

I do.

Tim (65:05)

Fred. Zach remembers Fred Thompson. And if you have seen Die Hard 2, he is the air traffic guy in charge of air traffic controller. The Republicans in 2008 were like, this is our guy. Or he was killed in the primary. They were like, this is. This is the guy. He is Ronald Reagan. He's the actor. He's like, not super. He got killed when he ran in, and he did a shitty job.

Zach (65:26)

And it's also an idiot. Like, he just like, you know.

Tim (65:30)

No, she is. She is. And I'm not. Again, like, if you put those two together, she would have. I thought she was. She's way. Yeah, but. But my point is, like, people like people that don't run until. And then when you go to a candidate, it is a completely different element.

Zach (65:43)

Yeah.

Tim (65:43)

And do you know how much racism would have come out on her? Worse than her husband? Because you're throwing a woman into it on top of that, all those, like, horrifically racist memes that even Donald Trump shared last month. I think it's just a different thing. But, yeah, I mean, I. Well, we are. We are way, way over. But I want to. I want to. I want to end. This is really good. This is really good. But I want to ask, is there. This is a tough question. I think I already know Zach's answer, but is there a. They're going to be 3,000 candidates running for president. This is my joke. The 3,000. Is there a. Is there a woman or several women that you would like to see run for the Democratic nomination? I'm gonna ask everybody who wants to

Zach (66:27)

go first, why do you know my answer?

Tim (66:29)

Well, you just said Gretchen Whitmer is a badass. I figured.

Zach (66:32)

I thought you were thinking saying, I'm gonna say no. Like, yes.

Tim (66:35)

No, no, no. That's. No.

Zach (66:36)

Okay.

Tim (66:37)

No, I was like, no. You actually were saying very good things about Gretchen Whit. Fair and true.

Zach (66:42)

Good, good. I thought you were attacking me.

Tim (66:44)

No, no, no, no, no.

Luke (66:46)

AOC is the.

Brenna Perez (66:47)

I guess, well, aoc Yeah, I. I want AOC running for Senate. I want her in the Senate.

Tim (66:52)

Yes, 100%.

Brenna Perez (66:53)

I think also. I think AOC also has a problem of, like, a lot of megas. Still really, really hate her.

Zach (66:59)

Oh, my.

Brenna Perez (66:59)

Yeah, I love AOC I think, you know, Elizabeth Warren is a safe choice and, you know, relatively safe for a woman in a country that has. Keeps proving that it seems incapable to elect very, very qualified women. You know, I know a lot of people have favorites for 20, 28 already, and I'm just like, I don't fucking know. But I guess maybe Elizabeth Warren would be, like, a favorite aoc, But I just don't think it's. I want her in the Senate, you know?

Tim (67:36)

Yeah. Yep. Okay, Zach, you're next.

Zach (67:39)

Yeah, I mean, I think Gretchen Whitmer fits the bill the best from my perspective. She's obviously the governor of a bit of an important state. She is extremely likable. I mean, what's that fudgeing track that they did? It's like the rap song about Whitmer. Fucking Big Gretch. That's it. The way she embraced it like that. Like that. She fits into, like, the era in which of how you run for politics. So I think she fits really nicely AOC I. I think, like, I like AOC as a human being. I think as a presidential candidate, she would get fucking destroyed. So, like, I just think, like, she doesn't have the. I think the average swing voter would look at her and be like, I'm not letting this person be in control of the military. Like, from a social perspective, I think she's on top of her game and she has great plans, but I think she's just, like, so incapable of dealing with some of the things that a lot of voters look at and care about. Then I think they'd be like, nope, instantly, no way. And it would just be a problem. So I'm more in the camp of, like, I like Elizabeth Warren, too. I think she's getting a little agey, you know, A little. She's getting up there. So that's a problem.

Brenna Perez (68:42)

I like that you might be one of the ones who actually goes after the money that caused.

Tim (68:47)

Yeah, she'd be.

Zach (68:48)

She'd be the best. The most qualified for that. And I like a lot of her plans. I just worry about the age. And, you know, she's.

Tim (68:55)

She's 76, so she's pretty fucking old. All right, Luke. Luke, you're next.

Luke (69:01)

I said afc. That's still my.

Tim (69:02)

Oh, you said. So I was Elizabeth Warren voter. I was in 2020. She was. She was my candidate at the beginning. And, you know, I. I really love her. I love how she ended Mike Bloomberg's campaign with, like, one sentence in one of those debates. If you go back, she like it. Literally. She, like, just smacked. And then she did it to that guy. That was the bald guy that ran for a brief second. He was at, like, 1% or something. I don't remember his name. She eviscerated him, too, which was great. But she's 76. I actually would love her as the chairman of the Banking Committee and said it. That's what I want her to be, because I want her to go after the banks, and I want to make them pay. Women. Gretchen Whitmer, for sure. AOC for sure. I'm less on the. On the military thing because I actually think that the war in Iran has sort of showed a split that, like, Americans are kind of tired of these, like, interventionist bullshit.

Zach (69:53)

Oh, yeah. People don't want.

Tim (69:54)

And. And I think that we are long overdue for a reduction in military spending because there's no way that we can get ourselves out of this mess continuing to spend one $1.2 trillion per year. You know, I think any of the. Any of the women in the Senate are. Are. Are more than capable of being. Being president, but I think I would put Whitmer and AOC at the top of that. And, you know, come on, Comma is probably maybe going to run again.

Zach (70:22)

Please, no.

Tim (70:23)

I'd like to see her in a full primary. I'm not.

Zach (70:27)

She got destroyed.

Tim (70:29)

True, true. But we've had a lot of people run once and get killed and then come back. Like, Joe Biden ran in 88 and one in 2020.

Zach (70:36)

So unhappy if she was the candidate, not because I voted for it. I donated an insane amount of money to her. But, like, I just. That was circumstantial, you know, is more so, like, I'll take what we got, but she is not even top 10, in my opinion, of, like, qualified candidates.

Tim (70:49)

Well, you're gonna get. You're gonna get plenty to choose from. I would tell you that right now. All right, well, so we all. We all like some of the same people, you know, we'll see. And there's also baby people that come out of nowhere. I mean, there are, there are some people, baby, but that's not a weird ass about women, Zach. Not, not men.

Zach (71:07)

I'm just being gentle.

Brenna Perez (71:08)

I'm also, I will say, I mean, to that point though, you know, when you brought up Hillary Clinton, part of the reason I didn't like her and I defaulted to her originally until a friend was like, you should look at this guy Bernie Sanders was. Because as a, as a woman I felt very pandered to and I realized like, oh, Bernie Sanders policies actually are more beneficial to women. And, and then, you know, and I didn't like a lot of the. How it went down with how the campaign was treating women. So it's not as simple as like a woman running. And by the way, I think that Republicans are very likely to run at least a VP next time who's a woman to be like, see, you know, women.

Tim (71:48)

Yeah, we're fine.

Brenna Perez (71:49)

Yeah, we're fine. We're, you know, kind of Sarah Palin sort of vibes. I, I'm so.

Zach (71:54)

Nikki, that's, that's your. Somebody like that.

Tim (71:58)

Well, I. Brett, it's a good point because in 2008, I was an Obama person, not a Hillary person. And my, mine was mostly related to, really related to the war in Iraq. He was against it and I mean he wasn't in Congress, but he made his feelings known and she was for it and that was really it for me. So it. But, but, you know, so there is. You can be against her and not be sexist. Like it's, there's obviously.

Brenna Perez (72:19)

Yes.

Tim (72:20)

Yeah.

Brenna Perez (72:21)

Part of it. Also, to be fair, I like personally, I don't love how Monica Lewinsky was treated personally. You know. Yeah, she was a 20 year old intern or 22 year old intern. You know, nobody. Not to bring up a whole new topic. I know you guys have to go, but. No, no, it's, you know.

Tim (72:38)

No. Yeah.

Brenna Perez (72:39)

And she was treated horribly at the time. She was treated horribly. And the culture was different at the time. You know, we have come a long way for sure. But I, you know, part of that I think is that was, you know, part of it for me.

Tim (72:51)

I, that's totally fair. I mean, I think I was in college. College, yeah. When that happened. Or high school. I don't remember.

Luke (72:56)

I didn't exist.

Zach (72:59)

You did not exist. That's.

Brenna Perez (73:01)

Monica Lewinsky was this.

Tim (73:04)

Can I get a history lesson here? Was a, A White House intern.

Brenna Perez (73:08)

She's about your age.

Zach (73:09)

I'm aware.

Tim (73:10)

Yeah. Yeah. No, and, and I mean she like kudos to her for like leading a what seems like a successful life. And she's out there and like, you know, I'm glad that people are, are realizing that she was not the villain as a 22 year old fucking intern with a, with the president United States in there. Like, you know, it's. Anyways, so. Well, on that note, after talking about Monica Lewinsky, that's wrap. Yeah, this is actually one of the most, the most fun. I mean, we're talking about really tough stuff, but it's really a fun episode. And Brenna, thank you very much for joining us and tell everybody where they can follow you

Brenna Perez (73:48)

all the apps except for the Nazi one. Twitter, Perez Brenna on all of them. So.

Tim (73:55)

Yeah, all right, well, go follow her and thank you, Brenna, for joining us and thank you everyone for watching. And also you're listening to this on Thursday, which means that the second episode of Get Angry is out the door. What are, what are you talking. It actually got. We got warnings on YouTube because Luke

Luke (74:15)

said I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire. And so it got us demonetized.

Tim (74:19)

No, we got limited monetization. Limited. Limited.

Zach (74:22)

We're gonna get demonetized every.

Luke (74:23)

Oh, yeah, I'm gonna be real. I'm gonna. It's gonna be a lot of trouble for us.

Zach (74:27)

Yeah.

Tim (74:27)

Well, what was the title of the show?

Brenna Perez (74:29)

Wasn't the title Angry about this week?

Luke (74:31)

Yeah, lots of things.

Zach (74:33)

So many things. Lots of fire hose of anger.

Tim (74:36)

If you need to.

Luke (74:37)

Like every time we film, it's like a. My memory just blacks out and then I wake up like with a blood pressure pump on me.

Tim (74:44)

That show is a tornado. Yes, it is a total tornado. I mean, an enter a fun tornado compared to a bad tornado. But if you need. If you're feeling low energy, watch on

Luke (74:55)

at the gym when you're on the treadmill.

Tim (74:56)

Oh, you'll. You'll have it at the, you'll be at like 12 on the, on the treadmill. You'll just be like sprinting me.

Brenna Perez (75:02)

You're gonna. Yeah, my heart condition.

Tim (75:04)

Oh, yeah.

Luke (75:04)

Hey, I got one of those too.

Tim (75:07)

Yeah. Do we need a. Do we need a warning at the beginning, Luke? Do we need a. Like, if you're.

Luke (75:11)

Yeah, like, I don't know, like an epilepsy warming.

Brenna Perez (75:15)

You should.

Tim (75:16)

Heart murmurs.

Brenna Perez (75:17)

You should do that for sure.

Tim (75:20)

Yeah. We'll have to talk to our attorney. We like, can we be funny and also correct to save our asses? Is that possible? Well, anyways, go watch Get Angry. We're also going to announce two new shows next week, I think, or at least one. So we're going to be talking about those next week. But if you follow us on find out media on substack and on YouTube and everywhere else, you will get the links to those. So with that, thank you, Brenna Perez, for joining us. This was great, everybody. Have a wonderful weekend and we will be back on Tuesday. Bye, everybody.