The Find Out Podcast

Episode: "Is Free Speech Over in America?"

Date: September 23, 2025
Guest: Ian Rosenberg (First Amendment attorney, adjunct professor at Brooklyn College, author of Free Speech Handbook)

Overview

This episode grapples with escalating concerns over free speech rights in America during Trump’s second term, with a focus on the recent suspension of Jimmy Kimmel by ABC—allegedly under pressure from the FCC. Through lively banter and legal expertise from guest Ian Rosenberg, the panel discusses the distinction between First Amendment law and values, government vs. corporate censorship, and the chilling effect on American speech. They also unpack the current media landscape, FCC chair Brendan Carr’s controversial actions, and strategies ordinary citizens can take to safeguard free expression.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jimmy Kimmel’s Suspension and the First Amendment

[00:43–05:03]

• Context: Jimmy Kimmel was suspended by ABC after comments some deemed “not particularly inflammatory.” Rumors suggest FCC pressure played a role.
• Ian Rosenberg explains:
  • The First Amendment restricts government interference, not private employers:
    “Very few people know that you really have no sort of freedom of speech at the workplace... if your workplace is ABC... these organizations have the right to punish speech. That doesn’t mean it’s not violating our First Amendment values. My wife calls it lawful but awful.” [01:25]
  • If government actors like the FCC Chair were involved, this could constitute illegal state action, referencing the Supreme Court’s unanimous ruling in NRA v. Vulo, which held that government can persuade but not punish private speech.
    “It seems like this is a tremendously analogous situation... the government should not be able to punish or seek private actors to punish speech that they disagree with.” [04:26]

2. Legal Paths and Implications for Kimmel

[05:03–06:26]

• Kimmel’s main legal recourse against ABC would be contractual, but if government pressure is proven, there could be a constitutional claim against the FCC.
  • “There is a constitutional claim here. This is not just two private parties fighting... the government is trying to intercede. And that is what they are constitutionally prohibited from doing.” [06:13]

3. Supreme Court’s Approach to Free Speech

[07:53–09:40]

• The Court has protected free speech across the spectrum, even with its conservative majority:
  • “The First Amendment has always appealed to people on all sides of the political spectrum... the power of the First Amendment lies in the ability to apply it consistently, which the court is generally better about doing in the First Amendment context than in many other constitutional contexts.” [08:34]
• Recent conservative outrage at perceived censorship is contrasted with their historical stance:
  • “Now we have this flip where it’s the right who seems to all of a sudden have become snowflakes and can’t take a joke.” [09:14]

4. Satire’s Legal Protection

[12:13–17:27]

• Rosenberg underscores the Supreme Court’s explicit defense of satire, citing Hustler v. Falwell (1988):
  • “Chief Justice Rehnquist affirms the right to satire, upholds Flint’s right to publish this parody... there’s no way that outrageousness can work as a standard that will just punish views people don’t like. Without that, we would have no political cartoons.” [15:05–16:23]
  • Kimmel’s case is “squarely” protected if government pressure is proven.
• Notable Moment: Recounting the wild details of the Hustler/Falwell case demonstrates the breadth of tolerated satire under the law.

5. Brendan Carr, the FCC, and Politicization of Media Regulation

[17:38–26:19]

• Rosenberg details Carr’s history of pro-Trump partisanship, willingness to target media for political reasons, and selective enforcement against outlets like CBS and Fox News.
  • “Carr has shown a willingness to go far beyond what any FCC chair has ever done... to abandon the FCC’s bedrock principle, which is that they can regulate but not censor speech.” [21:27]
• Panelists highlight Carr’s troubling alignment with fringe figures, his involvement in Project 2025, and efforts to “tame” non-conservative media.
  • “What we have here is a situation where the FCC chair seems to think that his role is to tame the mainstream media... to repress or regulate... views he doesn’t agree with.” [25:28]

6. Legal and Social Consequences, Chilling Effect

[26:52–30:50]

• Discusses scale of possible lawsuits against government actors, recognizing massive damages may be claimed but are likely more symbolic.
• Rosenberg shifts focus to the broader dangers:
  • “If they can take away the speech rights of these people, this is just the beginning of the end of free speech in this country... At no time in our history has that chilling effect felt more real and understandable.” [29:07–29:45]

7. Media Consolidation and Targeting Smaller Voices

[30:50–34:49]

• The panel warns consolidation of media and platforms increases vulnerability to political targeting.
  • “I’m not worried for Kimmel... I’m worried about the kind of, you know, if they come for these people... because other individuals don’t have the right to fight back in that way.” [28:45]
  • “We are small fish compared to Jimmy Kimmel... But I think we're not far off from being targeted by the Trump administration.” [31:33 - Host 2]
• Large media conglomerates often “obey in advance,” self-censoring to avoid trouble.
  • “To give up a little is really, in this case, to surrender so much of our rights... these mass companies are just obeying in advance.” [34:19]

8. Hope and Action: Protecting Free Speech Grassroots

[36:12–39:57]

• Rosenberg finds hope in bipartisan condemnation and the tradition of individual acts defending free speech:
  • “Our rights were created not necessarily by the President... but by individuals who take small stands of conscience and had no idea that they would end up defining rights for the whole nation.” [36:34]
• Everyone can help preserve free speech by learning their rights and speaking up at the local level.
  • “Protecting free speech is a grassroots activity... we have to be protecting the free speech rights of all Americans.” [39:14]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “My wife calls it lawful but awful.”
  — Ian Rosenberg on private, but values-violating, workplace censorship [01:38]

• “You can persuade but not punish.”
  — Paraphrasing Justice Sotomayor’s NRA v. Vulo ruling regarding government persuasion versus pressure [05:25, 11:23]

• “Now we have this flip where it’s the right who seems to all of a sudden have become snowflakes and can’t take a joke.”
  — Ian Rosenberg [09:14]

• “Carr has shown a willingness to go far beyond what any FCC chair has ever done... to abandon the FCC’s bedrock principle, which is that they can regulate but not censor speech.”
  — Ian Rosenberg [21:27]

• “At no time in our history has that chilling effect felt more real and understandable.”
  — Ian Rosenberg [29:45]

• “Protecting free speech is a grassroots activity... we have to be protecting the free speech rights of all Americans.”
  — Ian Rosenberg [39:14]

Key Timestamps

• 01:25: Rosenberg outlines public vs. private First Amendment application
• 04:26: Brennan Carr’s (FCC) pressure compared to NRA v. Vulo
• 07:53–09:40: Supreme Court’s ideological consistency and recent reversals
• 12:13–15:05: Legal history protecting satire, Hustler v. Falwell
• 18:11–21:27: FCC Chair Carr’s background and history of politicization
• 26:52–30:50: Chilling effect and dangers posed to all speech
• 36:12–39:57: How ordinary people can (and must) defend the First Amendment

Conclusion: What Listeners Can Do

• Learn your free speech rights — Rosenberg recommends accessible guides like his Free Speech Handbook.
• Speak up at local levels — From schools to council meetings, small acts matter.
• Support independent media — Especially as consolidation increases threats to dissenting voices.

Rosenberg closes on an optimistic note: while the risks to free speech are real and pressing, everyday people defending their rights makes a real difference.

For further learning:

• Free Speech Handbook by Ian Rosenberg
• On Tyranny by Timothy Snyder

Note: This summary skips promotional content, ads, and non-content sections; focus is on the main discussion and actionable takeaways.