Is MAGA finally cracking from the Epstein fallout?

Summary

Episode Title: Is MAGA Finally Cracking from the Epstein Fallout?

Release Date: July 15, 2025
Host: Find Out Podcast

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Episode Summary:

In this compelling episode of The Find Out Podcast, the hosts tackle a pressing and controversial topic: the potential fracturing of the MAGA movement in the aftermath of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal. Released on July 15, 2025, the episode delves deep into how the Epstein fallout may be causing cracks within Donald Trump's loyal base, exploring the broader implications for American politics.

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Introduction

The episode kicks off with the hosts engaging in their characteristic humorous banter about technical mishaps and their varying beard styles, setting a relaxed and relatable tone for the discussion ([00:00]-[01:19]). Tim introduces the main topic, highlighting the unexpected intertwining of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal with the MAGA movement.

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Jeffrey Epstein's Influence on MAGA

Background and Context:
Tim provides essential background information on the Epstein scandal's connection to the MAGA movement. He explains how Trump and his associates leveraged the Epstein list to insinuate Democratic involvement in nefarious activities, thereby attempting to tarnish their reputation ([02:20]-[05:35]).

Dissemination of the Epstein List:
The conversation shifts to Pam Bondi, the former attorney general, who claimed to have the Epstein list on her desk and subsequently distributed it to influencers. However, the list seemingly vanished shortly after, raising questions about its authenticity and the motives behind its distribution.

• Notable Quote:
  Tim: “They had it. They said they've given up to people and all this stuff, and all of a sudden the list doesn't exist.” ([02:30])

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MAGA Movement's Loyalty in Question

Cult Dynamics and Conspiracy Theories:
Luke introduces the idea of MAGA as a cult fueled by conspiracy theories, emphasizing how these narratives cement loyalty to Trump despite mounting evidence against him. The hosts discuss how myths and unfounded beliefs force followers to prioritize the movement over personal values and relationships.

• Notable Quote:
  Luke: “Every cult depends on myths... They tied themselves to someone who is objectively a moron.” ([15:18])

Internal Cracks and Disillusionment:
As the Epstein revelations gain traction, the hosts observe signs of disillusionment among MAGA supporters. Rich compares the situation to an iceberg, suggesting that visible fractures are merely the surface manifestations of deeper, unresolved issues within the movement.

• Notable Quote:
  Chris: “I think it's like an iceberg. We started at critical mass, and they're going to start to chip off. I don't think it's a central break. Yeah. It's just the tip.” ([19:05])

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Implications for Immigration Enforcement

Funding and Militarization of ICE:
The discussion pivots to the proposed allocation of $150 billion for ICE, raising alarms about increased violence and the militarization of immigration enforcement. The hosts express concerns that this funding could empower ICE agents to act with greater aggression, further alienating moderate MAGA supporters and fueling public backlash.

• Notable Quote:
  Tim: “How do you manage 150 billion for ICE and watch them hurt people?” ([27:00])

Potential for Increased Violence:
There is a consensus among the hosts that enhanced funding and resources could lead to more violent interactions between ICE agents and undocumented individuals, potentially igniting widespread outrage and further fracturing the MAGA base.

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Political Realignment and Democratic Strategies

Welcoming Former MAGA Supporters:
The hosts grapple with the Democratic Party's dilemma of whether to integrate disillusioned MAGA voters into their ranks. They debate the balance between holding former supporters accountable for their affiliations and extending empathy to those who may feel misled or disenfranchised.

• Notable Quote:
  Rich: “They have to atone for their sins... a big bearded guy should sit there and go, so what were you thinking?” ([55:43])

Barriers to Integration:
Chris and Zach discuss the challenges Democrats face in creating an inclusive environment for former MAGA voters without compromising their values or alienating the existing base. They emphasize the need for strategic engagement to win back disillusioned voters.

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Case Study: Stone Mountain Carving

Historical Context:
In an illustrative aside, Zach shares insights about the Stone Mountain carving in Georgia, revealing its origins tied to the Ku Klux Klan. This serves as a historical parallel to current extremist movements, highlighting how symbols can perpetuate harmful ideologies.

• Notable Quote:
  Luke: “I hate these people because we could be doing so much better.” ([58:46])

Impact of Historical Symbols:
The hosts reflect on how historical symbols of hate continue to influence contemporary extremist groups, drawing connections between past and present manifestations of racism and bigotry.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a somber reflection on the future of the MAGA movement. While there are visible signs of cracking, the hosts remain cautiously optimistic that the Epstein fallout could lead to a significant reduction in MAGA's influence. They stress the importance of strategic Democratic outreach to capitalize on this potential shift and mitigate the rise of extremist policies.

• Final Notable Quote:
  Rich: “I think that the MAGA movement depends on those people going with them.” ([41:42])

Closing Remarks:
The hosts encourage listeners to engage with the issue thoughtfully and support the podcast by purchasing merchandise or becoming members, underscoring the importance of informed discourse in combating extremist ideologies.

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Key Takeaways:

1. Epstein Fallout Impact: The Jeffrey Epstein scandal is exerting pressure on the MAGA movement, potentially leading to internal fractures and diminished loyalty to Donald Trump.
2. Conspiracy Theories as a Double-Edged Sword: While conspiracy theories have historically cemented loyalty within the MAGA base, they may now contribute to disillusionment as evidence mounts against their narratives.
3. Militarization of ICE: Increased funding for ICE poses significant risks of escalating violence and further alienating moderate supporters, possibly accelerating MAGA's decline.
4. Democratic Outreach Challenges: Integrating disillusioned MAGA voters into the Democratic fold presents both strategic opportunities and significant challenges, requiring nuanced and empathetic approaches.
5. Historical Parallels: The discussion of the Stone Mountain carving serves as a poignant reminder of how historical symbols and actions continue to influence and perpetuate extremist ideologies today.

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This episode of The Find Out Podcast provides a thorough and engaging exploration of the intersection between the Jeffrey Epstein scandal and the stability of the MAGA movement, offering insightful analysis and thought-provoking discussions for listeners seeking to understand the evolving political landscape.

Transcript

[Tim]

Foreign. Hey everybody, welcome back to the Find out podcast. Sorry this, our beginning is a little rough because we were literally non stop talking until we hit record. But we have a special announcement for today and I'm going to kick it to Zach or we'll just show him. If you're watching on video, Zach and Rich are in the same room together.

[Zach]

For this table and we have. I didn't bring anything so I didn't bring a computer, I didn't bring a microphone. So we're going to be like doing Beach Boys into the same mic.

[Rich]

Harmony.

[Zach]

Two part harmony. And we also have to stay the same distance, otherwise one of us is blurry. So we're just going to look like two hairy ass faces sharing a mic. So it's gonna be like a nice moment.

[Tim]

Well actually if you're watching on the screen you kind of get three different versions of beards. You get, you guys with the really heavy beards. I shaved mine down because it was driving me crazy. So I've kind of got the mid. And then we've got Luke nothing. The baby face. Absolutely nothing.

[Rich]

Is that a little here, a little there?

[Zach]

Is that a version of a beard like you said? Three different versions of a beard.

[Chris]

Oh, 0, 50, 200.

[Zach]

Two different versions of man face.

[Rich]

Yes.

[Tim]

And, and unfortunately the other member of the full beard face, Chris, he' got the, he's got. We're recording this at 8:45 on Sunday night. So he has a six week old, so you can guess where he is right now. And they have moved past the period where the kid sleeps all the time and now the kid thinks sleeping sucks. So that's why he's not here, unfortunately. But that last May join us in a little bit. Last episode I think was probably our funniest one. I think we're going to have some fun with this one too because we're going to talk about a topic that I don't think any of us thought would come up in this, but it has. And we're going to talk about the Jeffrey Epstein shit show that has enveloped I guess MAGA world. And we're starting to see some of the first cracks in mega and some people actually being mad at Donald Trump. He had a truth. A truth? Is that what it's called? A truth?

[Chris]

He got ratio truthy.

[Zach]

He ratioed on the platform.

[Chris]

Like 20,000 comments to 18,000 likes.

[Tim]

Yeah, so. So before we dive into it, just a little background for those of you, if you just on the left. We don't pay as much attention to Jeffrey Epstein but so Trump has talked about Epstein and Trump world have talked about the Epstein list as a way to sort of suggest that there's all these Democrats on it and they're evil people. Pam Bondi, the attorney general, even said she had the list on her desk. And then a few weeks they handed.

[Chris]

Out those lists to the influencers.

[Tim]

Yeah, that's what I, I don't know.

[Chris]

Everybody's forgetting about that.

[Rich]

Right.

[Tim]

They had it. They said they've given up to people and all this stuff, and all of a sudden the list doesn't exist. And President Trump is.

[Zach]

What did you just call him that?

[Tim]

People, they call him President Trump. Yeah.

[Chris]

Donald, like soap in the mouth.

[Zach]

Stop the recording. Start over.

[Tim]

No, I know. Well, I, I should do what Hillary did. She just called him Donald, which he hated.

[Chris]

I don't ever call him.

[Tim]

He did not like it. He even said he's. He was even asked and I think in the, in the White House in the Roosevelt Room one day last week and he was like, why is everyone talking about Jeffrey Epstein? Kind of just like a giant you to his. So his followers. So we're going to spend a lot of time talking about that today and whether this is a real break, what it actually means. And what does it mean that some magas are upset about this, but not the mountain of horrible shit that he's done in other places. So who wants to, who wants to kick it off within this. In this.

[Chris]

I feel like Rich is kind of soliloquy teed up.

[Zach]

You know, I got a lot of thoughts on this, but no, I mean, I think the biggest thing for me is like, why this and why now? You know, I think that's what, that's the, that's the billion dollar question where this dude's been like, it's funny that he's like, stop talking about Epstein when he literally built his entire career on a birth certificate. Right, right. And then, and then like, he's, I mean, he's, he's a. Can we call him a pedophile? Like a person could call him a pedophile. No, Trump. I mean, a person could make the case. I wouldn't comment on that video. I wouldn't, I wouldn't criticize someone who said that is how I would frame it. And, and like, these are all just things that are plain. Like, we know that he like walked into changing rooms at the beauty contestants. Like, that's a. Was like very well covered.

[Chris]

Talked a lot about his daughter.

[Zach]

He was, he used his hands to forcibly penetrate a woman and was convicted of that in a. In a. In court. And. And so, like, these are all things that are objectively part of reality. And. And yet now we get to this thing where it's like. I think we're all kind of like, is this. Is this real? Like, I feel like I'm being gaslit again. It's like Charlie Brown with the football where, like, are you guys actually mad about Epstein, or is this just, like, the latest thing where you're being little and then, like, you're so, like, little idiots, and then you're gonna. And then, like, you'll all find your way back to him, you know, just like you guys always do. So that. That's kind of how I'm looking at it. And I'm like, I don't know. It kind of feels real. But I've also been burned several times. And so, yeah, kind of.

[Chris]

I mean, there's the bill thing. There was, like, the tariff thing.

[Tim]

That's.

[Chris]

I mean, that's two big, like, breakups they've had in the last six months.

[Rich]

But it wasn't, like, foundational, like, those things, like, policy stuff is not foundational to me.

[Chris]

It doesn't affect him.

[Zach]

That's true.

[Chris]

They can always make the case that it's someone else. But this, I feel like they' directly attributing to Trump 100 again. Which is funny, because it. In an ideal world, the DOJ and the President are completely separate. They should be pissed at Bondi for not releasing it. But they're not.

[Rich]

No.

[Zach]

Well, Laura Loomer is, right.

[Rich]

I don't know.

[Tim]

I think she's never gonna say anything.

[Luke]

She's never.

[Chris]

She is nuts.

[Rich]

Oh, yeah. A ton of them on Bondi. I mean, she's nuts, too. I don't know. It's the whole thing. Like, the weirdest part about it to me, like, I started doing research back into this, like, a week ago, and, like, Trump has avoided this topic relatively expertly, while at the same time, his cult is obsessed with it. And that's the thing I find so interesting. It's like, how is that possible? How is Trump, like, the guy who talks the most shit about everything all the time? How is he just completely. Not like he's avoided this completely, and yet somehow, his entire.

[Chris]

I don't understand how they are surprised by this. He teed up this lie a year ago when that interviewer asked him, well, would you release those ones? And he goes, yes, but actually, no.

[Tim]

Like, he was.

[Chris]

He was teeing this shit up a year ago, and they've completely just fucking missed it.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Tim]

I think one of the genius. I hate to use the word genius but like this guy did get elected twice when he absolutely shouldn't have. But again, I think this is a lot of this is because they have their own messaging ecosystem.

[Rich]

Yes.

[Tim]

And he can pick and choose when to dive in and when not. But they have to fill 24.7of bullshit. And so what are they going to talk about? They're going to talk about this, the seedy list that this seedy billionaire that he's on. Right, right.

[Rich]

That's why he's not talk about it. Right, right.

[Tim]

But like they were suggesting, you know, they're talking about Bill Clinton and Bill Gates and all these people like basically alluding to that.

[Rich]

Aaron Rogers. Yeah.

[Chris]

Which he actually, apparently Barack Obama and both Bidens and Kimmel.

[Tim]

Kimmel actually threatened to sue Trump I think because he was like, I have never been on one of those planes so like you can't, you know. But I don't try, don't try defamation. Yeah, yeah. And you have to. Yeah. And though I guess the president, if it's an official act, I guess he can get away with it. But you know, but is pedophilia an.

[Zach]

Official act if it's in defense of the state? I don't know. This is a. Jimmy Kim was an.

[Chris]

Enemy of the state.

[Tim]

If he makes the, if he says it from the Oval, is that official? I don't know.

[Rich]

I don't know.

[Tim]

I mean that's why that, that ruling was so ridiculous. But, but I have, I have people that I was friends with at home who are the most die hard Trumpers and I have seen them posting release the list over.

[Rich]

Oh, they're pissed.

[Tim]

They are furious.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Because it's like mine too.

[Tim]

But they've been lied to before. Right. So like why this lie?

[Rich]

Well, it's a conspiracy thing. Like I, I feel like they, they went down the rabbit hole with a lot of this but this is the one where like I felt like they had the most like, I know this is true. Like deep down I know that this is true. And it's just, whoa. Like be like it's confirming their belief that it's true. And now they're like, oh, is he actually on this list? I think that's the thing. Like, I think they're not going off this because they believe that it's, the list doesn't exist. They're going to. Oh shit. Trump is involved in this. That's their like.

[Zach]

But I think that's like Zach said like, right. We're like, well, what policy do you hate so much that you would leave Trump?

[Rich]

Right.

[Zach]

Like, that is not even. That isn't nothing.

[Chris]

Zero.

[Zach]

This is really.

[Chris]

Literally walk in their house, take their money out of their pocket, and they.

[Rich]

Were a good guy. I like that guy.

[Chris]

He's going to do something good with that money.

[Tim]

He could pass the murder grandma bill and people would be supportive of it.

[Zach]

I mean, come on.

[Rich]

I mean, Trump said it himself. You could shoot somebody on the street and it would be fine. It's true.

[Zach]

Well, I just read an article about, like, a guy whose wife is an undocumented immigrant. Immigrant. And they both voted for Trump. Or he voted for Trump and his wife, who can't vote as an adult for Trump. And I'm like. I'm like, okay. And then they're like, you know, well, we didn't understand. I'm like, bro, it makes no sense.

[Rich]

It's like. It's like me as a Jew voting for Hitler. It's like, it makes no sense. I don't understand. It's like a tree voting for the ax. Yeah. It's like, what are you doing? I don't get it. It's very bizarre.

[Tim]

I'll throw out my theory. I know we all have theories, so I'll go first. But. So I. I've thought. I. I have thought more about Jeffrey ESPC in the last week, and I wish these didn't make me do this, but this is where we are.

[Chris]

Yep.

[Tim]

I think. I think the reason that this is penetrating is because there's a very poor choice of words.

[Chris]

Very poor choice of words.

[Zach]

I saw Luke's face.

[Rich]

Is this.

[Tim]

Is this purposeful or was that purposeful?

[Chris]

Okay, you know, you're sounding like a man.

[Zach]

At least they didn't.

[Tim]

We'll never learn. We'll never know. Anyways, so these. A lot of Trump voters see him as the drain the swamp guy.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Tim]

As the guy that's against the establishment. As the guy that's against both parties. Because they know that most establishment Republicans hate his guts.

[Rich]

Yes.

[Tim]

So, like, he's a Republican in name only, right?

[Rich]

Yes.

[Tim]

And so they thought he was fighting for them and, like, he had convinced them that they were. He was doing all these things for them. And then he goes and protects. Theoretically, protects Jeffrey Epstein and everybody on that list. And then the veil is starting to come down that maybe this guy isn't out for me, maybe he's just out for him, and he is actually part of this establishment crew that we've hated. Forever. And I think that's why people are starting to go, I don't know.

[Zach]

Yeah, well, and like, in defending the. I mean, this is how it looks. Is, you know, in defending the. The opposite of the conspiracy. Right. He is now, like, jumped ship. Like, he's not on their team anymore.

[Chris]

He's not one of us. 1. Not part of the ship, part of the crew.

[Zach]

And it's like, I don't know, there's a metaphor, like a movie that. There's a reference I'm trying to find, but I can't find it. But like, when you build your house with that and then you just abandon it, you can't. Like the house of cards topples. Right? That's a mixed metaphor. It's bad. But, like, he. He slowly built this up on conspiracy looks. Just hang with me.

[Tim]

I think we've lost Luke entirely.

[Zach]

But.

[Tim]

Hey, look.

[Zach]

Oh, hey, guys.

[Luke]

All right, you guys. Are you guys talking about a secret list that.

[Chris]

Yes, we are, a little bit.

[Rich]

We did. We've.

[Tim]

We've pushed one theory out there as.

[Chris]

To why Mag is so pissed.

[Tim]

By the way, guys, I gotta take a break here because. Chris, that shirt is phenomenal.

[Zach]

You know it?

[Tim]

I. I just find out podcast, it's available. And there looks like a sweet mug behind you too.

[Zach]

It's very comfortable.

[Chris]

Is fire.

[Tim]

Guys, I'm working these in on at the beginning to see if we get more sales. From the beginning.

[Chris]

I like it.

[Zach]

Buy mugs.

[Rich]

So anybody on audio, it's. Find out.

[Tim]

All right. This is what happens when we record at nine o' clock at night. Anyway.

[Rich]

Sorry, go ahead.

[Zach]

I know I'm a little sharper with coffee than beer, but.

[Chris]

Oh, I'm sharp as right now.

[Zach]

I know Luke. That's the 22 year old I'm always texting Luca like, you know, 10am Like a normal adult time. Yeah.

[Chris]

Getting a response.

[Zach]

And he's like, what are you doing? I'm like, hey, come on, brainstorm.

[Chris]

I'm dead from the neck up till in the afternoon.

[Zach]

So when you build your. Your campaign, you build your entire brand, your entire movement on, not just on the conspiracies themselves, but on people who are obsessed with conspiracies. You can't. You can't pull the rug out. Like, you have to maintain that. You know, you got to. You got to keep it going forever. And I mean, that's terrifying to me as a person. Like, if I wanted people to follow me and. But I had to perpetuate, like 30 layers of lies in every category of lie that I'm telling. That would. That would be very exhausting. I think they finally got to a point where whether this, like, list exists on paper or not, obviously, like, we're talking about the 80s and 90s, right? Like, this was a time in America where the Internet was anonymous. Like, there was. There was no track record of anyone doing anything unless a person fucking saw it with their eyeballs.

[Rich]

Right.

[Zach]

And then that person had to not be so afraid of being. What do they call it on Tick Tock? Unalived. Nice. Luke, don't do that. Murdered by a. By an assassin from the deep state. I mean, that's how they would say it, right? Yeah, that you would go, then say that on, like, television or tell the police. And then at that point, it's like you didn't have a smartphone to record video. So, like, it was all just hearsay. Everything was very dangerous. So point being, like, yes, all of these. Everybody in power did absolutely horrific things before the era of information, like ubiquitous digital information and video and photo evidence. Evidence came upon us. And so we shouldn't be surprised that if. If anyone. If every president was on this list prior to 2000, I would not actually be surprised. And that. But that's. So that's where we are and so. Or where we are. And so, yes, they thought that Trump was an outsider coming in to drain the swamp. But, like, anybody who knows anything about Trump that you Knew in the 80s and 90s, he was also a billionaire in the middle of New York City. Clearly good friends with Jeffrey Epstein, called him a great guy, talked about how they both liked younger women. Like, come on, dude. Like, yeah, let it. Let it happen. Let your brain finish the rest of the process. And I think maybe, I hope that that's where they've gotten Chris. What do you think?

[Chris]

Chris has got a smirk on his face.

[Zach]

We have hope. We have that. We're gonna fix them. All right, so it's like, how do I. Agent.

[Chris]

So maga. I don't like that start.

[Luke]

Yeah, maga's a cult.

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Luke]

And. And we have to remember that the conspiracy theories feed the cult. Like, every cult depends on myths like fascism. Like, it. It believes something and it. And all of these lies pile on top of one another. It. It is what forces the belief in these myths, in these lies is what forces people to give up on their friends and families, to abandon their values because they start to believe the myth is more important than anything else. And these people, you know, tied themselves to someone who is objectively a moron. You know, he's He's a good salesman. He's. He's a good con man. Intelligent people are not fooled by him, but idiots are. You know, and I'm sorry for people who might be listening to this and feel offended.

[Zach]

All of our MAGA listeners.

[Chris]

Sorry.

[Luke]

Well, you know, there are some recent converts. You know, we just had one on a recent episode.

[Tim]

Wasn't there for.

[Luke]

Sadly. But if. If you've ever been conned by. By Donald Trump, you're a idiot. Like, objectively, everything about the man is.

[Chris]

You are one dumb motherfucker.

[Luke]

The dude has talked about his own daughter, like, live on air on. Howard Stern has been talking about how his daughter is a. And I quote, piece of ass.

[Tim]

Yep. Huh. How the.

[Luke]

Do you think, if this guy is attracted to his own daughter, that given the chance by Jeffrey Epstein to go fly to a private island.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Luke]

Full of fucking children, that this man is not going to live out the fantasies that he's been having about his daughter with some poor other victim who doesn't have a voice, who doesn't have an opportunity to. To sue the guy who doesn't have an opportunity to call the cops because she's on a fucking island.

[Zach]

Right, Right.

[Luke]

Or even if it happens in New York, you know, if it happens at a penthouse in New York City, which is far more likely in the case of Trump. Donald Trump is a predator. He's a. He's been found liable for what New York State defines as rape, and he is described being attracted to his own child.

[Tim]

So, yeah.

[Luke]

For people who are.

[Chris]

If you're surprised by this, I'm not seeing the.

[Zach]

The. What's the issue here? Yeah, I mean, if you could boil it down to one thing, it's how all they are.

[Luke]

It's how all of them are so angry at is. MAGA is like, you know whose fault it is? It's the woman.

[Zach]

It's Joe Biden.

[Rich]

Yes.

[Luke]

It's Pam Bondi's fault.

[Zach]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Tim]

They're going to throw her straight under the bus. And she was just doing what Trump wanted her to do. But it goes back to the same thing. If you hit your horse to Donald Trump, you will never end up in a good spot.

[Chris]

Nope.

[Zach]

They all second he needs you under a bus.

[Chris]

There's no falling upwards with them.

[Tim]

No, no, no.

[Luke]

But, but for real, like, where. Why isn't Cash Patel at fault?

[Zach]

Like, yeah, I had not thought of that. I mean, like, it's right in front of us, and yet it's so often the case with Him. Why? Why is it the. The woman. I have an charge of this fail.

[Tim]

I have an answer on that one. Cash doesn't go to work. I'm not joking about. He actually. He tweeted the other day. He actually, like, got permission to run the FBI from his house in Las Vegas. He's never there. Yes. Yes. And then that other bozo. What's the damn. Yeah, whatever the fuck, has realized that he can make a lot more money podcasting, which I wish that was true for us. It's not. But if investors are interested, let me know.

[Zach]

Tell them about the coffee mug.

[Tim]

We already did the coffee. Yeah, but buy a coffee mug. But instead of being the deputy director of the FBI. So they don't have leadership in the FBI.

[Chris]

It's anything.

[Tim]

They don't do anything. They're making $180,000 a year each, and they don't even go to the FBI. They're not even in the building. And Trump's the one that's crazy.

[Chris]

Director of the FBI only makes 180 grand a year.

[Zach]

It is.

[Rich]

It's true. That is really low.

[Chris]

Well, surprising.

[Tim]

Yeah. But, but, but. Because when you retire.

[Chris]

Yeah. You then go into a private security.

[Tim]

Thing and you speak and you make, like, a half a million dollars a year, minimum.

[Rich]

That's true.

[Tim]

So, like, it's not a big sacrifice, especially for working from home.

[Rich]

Here's the question for everybody. I have my own opinion, but I'll save it so I get the answers. You guys. Is this. Do you think this is, like, truly the beginning of the fracturing of MAGA forever, or is this a blip in the history of MAGA and they'll persist?

[Chris]

I think it's like an iceberg. We started at critical mass, and they're going to start to chip off. I don't think it's. It's not a central break. Yeah. It's just the tip.

[Zach]

I had to get that in. Sorry.

[Chris]

I liked it. That was good. I like the tip.

[Rich]

You like the tip. It's enough.

[Zach]

I only got the tip inside.

[Rich]

Doing this. Too late.

[Tim]

We said. We said we were doing a dude's podcast and talk like dudes. So here we go. There you go. I. I think it's. I'm. My pessimism is keeping me from saying that it is a big fracture, but it's a problem. And, like, we haven't seen this before. And I think that's the thing that I keep looking at is Trump kind of like I said the other day, like, kind of just, like, mocked the people that were talking about it, which was really the first time he had turned his ire on his own people.

[Rich]

Yeah, yeah. They didn't like that.

[Tim]

Clearly did not like that.

[Rich]

They were not.

[Tim]

And he hasn't done anything to clean this up.

[Chris]

And there is nothing he can do. He can't rectify this situation.

[Zach]

Right.

[Chris]

If he, if he releases a list without his name on it, the conspiracy theories are still going to be there.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Zach]

And also he's got a whole house.

[Chris]

And he's got to have somebody that will know the truth. To fucking scribble his name because I'm doing it with a Sharpie. Doesn't help.

[Rich]

Yeah. He'll be collateral damage, that list. Somebody else, he'll. They'll take him down too.

[Tim]

Well, and the other thing that is crazy, and I am, I am not one to follow any conspiracies because I just think that most of them are completely absurd. But the footage that they released of the prison cell where Jeffrey Epstein hung himself, or at least that's the thought, had a minute of footage they like could tell that it had been, it had been manipulated.

[Chris]

There's a watermark from Adobe Premiere Pro in.

[Tim]

It's in the metadata.

[Rich]

This is ridiculous.

[Zach]

They didn't even the full version.

[Chris]

Her argument was that. Oh, her argument was like, oh, there's a minute missing. It happens every day. There's not a convenience store in America that would buy a security system that was missing a minute a day. And you're going to tell me that it's a top. You know, a great prison has that, right?

[Zach]

When he kills Buffering.

[Rich]

Yeah, sure.

[Tim]

Though they, those, those tapes in those they usually like re. Record after 24 hours or 3 days or something like that.

[Rich]

Right.

[Tim]

And now they're all digital, so they don't even really do that anymore.

[Rich]

Right.

[Tim]

I don't think. But no, I mean, but they have a real problem on their hands because they've released footage that has clearly been manipulated. Yes, they are lying about a list. I don't actually know if the list exists. I have no idea. But she, Pam Bondi literally said it was on her desk. So.

[Chris]

Yeah, you can't claim like that and not back it up.

[Zach]

Well, it's one of those, like, are they stupid or are they, you know, are they incompetent or are they malicious? Like it doesn't make a difference. But in this case, like either Pam Bondi way overspoke to try to give herself some cred or she is lying. And really what is better and doesn't matter, right.

[Tim]

No, I don't give a.

[Chris]

Which it is.

[Zach]

It doesn't matter.

[Rich]

No, it doesn't really matter. I mean, the way I look at it is I think this is actually like regular Republicans. This is their best day ever because they don't give a shit about all this stuff. Like, these people that give a shit about the Epstein stuff are the people who weren't voting prior to Trump running for president. They're the ones who got activated by Donald Trump. But, ooh, look at this lunatic saying lunatic shit that I like. That's awesome. Let me dive into this. And now those people are going, wait a minute. And I don't think all of those people are going to fragment off and leave, but I do think enough are going to go away where the, like all of that momentum, the Republican Party in quotations really just MAGA now, but the Republican Party has been enjoying is going to get frittered away when they need it the Most. Coming into 2026 and 2028. Trump and MAGA need those margins. And for me, I don't see this as some giant wave of MAGA comes crashing down. And it's amazing. But what I do see is that little chunk of people that made Trump president are going to get chopped away. And that is the Democrats true opportunity.

[Chris]

Well, it's interesting too, cuz like Ro Khanna put in that roll call vote that's coming this week.

[Rich]

Yes.

[Chris]

That's going to demand everybody vote on it. Like you are going to be on the record as either hiding it or you're going against Trump. Either way, you're.

[Tim]

I don't know what they're going to do. To be perfectly honest.

[Chris]

It's a bad, bad deal.

[Tim]

Do you risk your seat, you risk.

[Chris]

Your seat either way, though.

[Tim]

Well. Right. Do you risk your seat defending Trump?

[Zach]

Right.

[Tim]

Or do you vote to release it and have the ire of Trump? I don't know which is worse for these guys, but, you know, because they don't have a lot of room.

[Chris]

You're going to fall out a window if you go against Trump.

[Zach]

Pull it. Pull a Putin. I'm going to tell him what to do right now. You go against Trump.

[Chris]

Oh, it's the smart play, 100%.

[Zach]

You go against Trump because he's not going to be on the ballot.

[Rich]

Right.

[Zach]

And like this shit's ending. And so like Zach, it's a really good question because nothing happens in a vacuum. Right. Like if, if it, if this were in a vacuum, they would 100% come back to him. But when you look at the contextual clues, all of the other things that are happening. You look at how. How well Trump did with, like, his magic in 2024, if you want to call it that, was that, yes, he did win more minority voters and more, like, young men, especially, than anyone thought was possible. And. And then he did in 2016. And so, you know, I think the people in the media are like, like, what is it? What is this magic that he has? He just has this grasp on people. Those people are now getting either distracted. Like, Trump isn't cool anymore. Like, I think it's almost that simple. You know, I was a young man. We were all young men once, Luke. Congratulations.

[Chris]

I am a young man.

[Zach]

You like things for absolutely irrational reasons sometimes because you're just like, yeah, they said the system, and I thought that was cool. And then, like, five minutes later, you're like, well, it turns out that was kind of a dumb decision. Or.

[Chris]

Or that's how I feel when you on me for liking Creed.

[Zach]

If you want to talk about Creed Nickelback, we can. We.

[Rich]

We'll pivot there. I mean, what did.

[Zach]

I just.

[Rich]

Don't worry.

[Zach]

It's fine. I just broke Zach's computer. I touched a thing that looks like a hard drive. Like, I think he's just not the thing anymore. And. And the fact that, like, he's not the center of all the conspiracy theories. The fact that sort of everything is going a little bit weird and sideways. Like, it's a real convenient time for, like, the cool people to just. Homer Simpson into the shrubs on Maga and, like, Andrew Schultz and Joe Rogan, like, they're all just kind of, like, dripping out shit. Like, it's. It's that, like. Well, I never, like, love said.

[Luke]

I.

[Zach]

Thought he was gonna do good things. I mean, it's gonna be.

[Chris]

It's gonna be in five years. Well, nobody really supported it.

[Zach]

We all knew that he wasn't the best. I'm, like, devoted for him, right? And now everybody's life. So then.

[Chris]

So that asked. That makes me ask the question, what do you do with those people?

[Zach]

That's a great question.

[Rich]

I don't know.

[Chris]

This is their breaking point. Homer Simpson threw the shrubs right to the side.

[Luke]

This is the breaking point, I think.

[Chris]

But there's some people that are upset about it, right?

[Luke]

I think this is where everyone's like, ooh, ooh, this is not good. They back away for a suggest Hollywood, where all of his allies were silent for a couple weeks, and then they're like, I forgot about this.

[Zach]

But that was before he won. And there's no big win out ahead of him though. Like he. That happened and then he won and so a lot of people were like, oh, well, he's like, he's impenetrable.

[Rich]

Right?

[Zach]

He's a fucking.

[Rich]

Right.

[Zach]

He's a tank.

[Tim]

He.

[Zach]

We have to get on board. Like there's nothing. At least that. Maybe that's what I'm telling myself. There's nothing next that he can then go win and defy immigration. It's just going to.

[Rich]

That's the thing. He needs a win. And he's really. He's facing down a lot of headwinds. I mean, that's. Yeah. Mean fine.

[Zach]

That's his win. He's going to take away a born citizen. He's make what he does in Ireland anyway.

[Luke]

I'll tell you what he's going to do. I mean, this isn't different from the original plan, but he's just going to keep deploying American troops throughout American cities and he's going to keep encouraging ice. He's already said it. He's like, yeah, you know, use all. All necessary force to arrest people.

[Rich]

If he was.

[Chris]

Tom Holman got on national television and said that they don't need fucking probable cause other than physical appearance now. Yeah, I mean, that's the same shit they're. They're calling for.

[Tim]

Well, how much did they just get from the shitty bill? How much?

[Chris]

40 billion, I think, right?

[Rich]

No, 150.

[Tim]

750.

[Chris]

I thought, I thought a chunk of that was for the wall, though.

[Rich]

I think a chunk of it is for the wall, but no, I think ICE alone is 150 billion.

[Zach]

Well, let's remember FEMA money is for FEMA and they built a concentration camp with it. So, like, I think they could find a way to make wall money, mass deportation money.

[Chris]

Wall money is ICE money.

[Luke]

I think as soon as there are videos and, and if you watch Fox News, this is all that's on there is, is people getting in fights with cops or ice. Oh, yeah, we're gonna see more masked men running around with guns. No one can tell whether or not they're actual law enforcement officers.

[Rich]

Right.

[Luke]

People are, I think, you know, going to eventually respond using, you know, the, the, the Second Amendment.

[Chris]

One of those is going to get.

[Luke]

And then Donald Trump's going to push it further and no one's going to give a about Jeffrey Epstein. I'm not going to give a. About Jeffrey Epstein. Neither of us are. When Americans are getting shot by ice, because that's where we're going.

[Rich]

Well, it's the challenge with that, though, is that it's a losing road.

[Zach]

Right.

[Rich]

Like he's on a losing road right now with his own people. But that's a losing road with everybody. I mean, not everybody, but it's a losing road with like a larger group of people. So that's the challenge.

[Zach]

I have, I think, I think 20, I don't know, probably 30% of the Republican Party has some level of roots in libertarianism. And I, I'm from a deep red state with a lot of libertarians. And those are the people who, like Joe Walsh. I mean, he was, he was more of a, like a Tea Party libertarian. And so we had like, a lot of disagreements, but when it comes to like, the Constitution is still the Constitution, a lot of those people still believed in that. And the, and libertarians are all about individual rights. And so when you start talking about taking away guns, when you start talking about masked officers and having like these, I mean, this is essentially a, a new entire military.

[Rich]

Yes.

[Zach]

Within the law enforcement community where they're getting more money than every other law enforcement agency combined, like significantly more than everyone else.

[Chris]

And most world, most of the world's militaries.

[Rich]

Yes.

[Zach]

And, and now they just have masks on and they get to run around, do whatever they want. Like, half of Republicans are not okay with that and 100% of Democrats are not okay with that.

[Luke]

Yeah, but Rich, you're assuming that there is there, that there is logic and that there's commitment to these people's ideology. There is no commitment to libertarianism.

[Chris]

It's more spying than a jellyfish.

[Luke]

There's no commitment to Trumpists who, like libertarians who adopted Trump. If there was a commitment to libertarian ideals, they wouldn't have gone committed to Trump. You look at any. And again, like, my specialty is following extremists.

[Zach]

Right.

[Luke]

There is no militia who is preparing to mope, like right wing militia. They're not going to fight humanitarian, you know, inspired militia. Who's, who's getting ready to mobilize against ice. The, the boogaloo, which was pretty libertarian, like liberal, like policies have started this like, fringe movement where now they're, they're going after progressives, they're going after protesters instead. So, like even the most libertarian of the, of the extremist movement, the armed extremist movements have adopted Trump as their king.

[Chris]

Don't tread on me, folks love being stepped on by Daddy Donald.

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Luke]

So even after Epstein, even when we start seeing. Yeah, oh yeah, even after Epstein. I mean, none of this stuff matters. Like they are all still in his camp.

[Tim]

Well, Chris, you said something. I was listening to the podcast you were doing, I think with Reed Galen from the Lincoln Project last week. That is, this is not, not a happy topic. But the, what you guys were talking about. They got so much funding and they need to hire so many positions. What does that mean about the candidate quality that they are going to be hiring? That are going to be the people on the ground grabbing people hiding behind jobs?

[Luke]

Yeah, I mean, we, we saw it in Vietnam, we saw it in Iraq, we saw it in Afghanistan. When there's an unpopular war, people stop joining the military willingly and people who are able to, like Donald Trump, start getting, you know, deferments, saying, I have fucking bone spurs. So all of the qualified candidates find other things to do and they lower the standards. I mean, I, I saw it when I was serving leading up to the troop surge going into Iraq in 2007, they had to lower the standards and offer massive bonuses.

[Zach]

Oh, yeah, right.

[Luke]

When this happened in Vietnam, it happened to such a wild degree that they allowed people in where their life expectancy was like a quarter of what the average recruit or draftee was.

[Zach]

Well, I was going to say they were drafting everybody, right? Yeah, but, but, but they lowered the, the bar, the standard for the draft.

[Luke]

They lowered the standard so much that it was, it was not just leading to lower life expectancy for the individual draftee, but everyone around them. And we are going to have ICE agents who are, they are scraping from the bottom of the barrel, who are not emotionally intelligent, who are joining because they were part of an extremist organization that no longer needs to exist because Donald Trump is, is, you know, running all of their, their wet dreams, extremist ideologies for it.

[Zach]

If they do it for Trump.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Zach]

You might as well go get a fucking W2.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Luke]

So three years from now, three years from now, like three years from right now, the summer, you know, leading up to elections, we're going to have ICE agents who've been in for two years who are going to be hotheads, who are going to be trigger happy, who are going to be racists and they will not be screened out.

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Rich]

This competition scaring me?

[Zach]

Well, no, I, But Zach, like you mentioned something a couple of weeks ago in an episode, maybe it was yesterday, I don't remember. But you know, you were talking about like, this is the, the era of instant digital accountability. And like, I think that's the one. Obviously that is the one thing you look back at like Vietnam and the Korean War and World War II. Like, I think it was the. I'm gonna. I don't want to say anything that's rude, because I just don't know history that well, but there was a. There was a person, I believe in Vietnam, who lit themselves on fire in the middle of a street. Journalist took a picture of a. Of a person who was protesting. I believe it was like a. It was somebody who's, like, in a meditative state, and they just let themselves on fire and like, that. That took over the world because at the time, there weren't 7,000 TikTok or like, 7 million TikToks being made every day.

[Rich]

It was totally different.

[Zach]

That was the first dose of reality that anyone got. And that, like, I think that image alone changed. I know for a fact that image alone. That image alone changed the course of the war because people saw it and they go, holy fuck, if it's that bad, I think we have to change ourselves a little bit. And so, like, I think we're numb to that to some degree, because, like, you can see that 700 times a day in an action movie. Yeah, yeah. But at the same time, when you, like, I remember, you know, in the Mediterranean Sea when there were some really bad things happening in the Middle east, you saw, like, kids that were drowning in the. In the life rafts, and you see things that are horrible at the border. Like, those things still are real, and they still. They still kind of destroy you when you see them. And so. So if we start seeing that at the border in cities, I mean, we've seen what's happened in Los Angeles, and, like, they're.

[Rich]

It's shifted shit.

[Zach]

They're shutting it. Like, LA is still la, and. And so you get those little snippets out in the world, and at least we have a chance. Like, we give humans a chance to be human and react to. To what they're seeing.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Zach]

I mean, react appropriately.

[Tim]

But I think the question to that, though, is, like, well, what happens with that? Right? Like, I don't think Donald Trump's gonna care. Oh, I think that's the scary. You do?

[Rich]

I do.

[Zach]

He's an opportunist.

[Rich]

Yeah, he's an opportunist. That's the thing is like, I'll use. I'll go back to an analogy I've used, I think, before in this podcast, but I'll use it because it's completely relevant to what we're talking about. The Republican. It's like. It's like two football teams and The Republicans and MAGA are like the team that talks a bunch of shit before the game. And you think before going into the game, this is going to be a blowout. The mag is going to beat the out of the Democrats. It's going to be great. Then, then you get on the field and you go, go, oh, they have nothing. We're about to enter the first quarter of the game. We haven't even gotten on the field yet. We've been in the talk phase since he got elected. Like, we've been, you know, we're kind of like in pre game, there's not a ton of shit that we've actually seen. They have to implement their game plan now. That's what's about to happen. It's a losing game plan. It's dog. It's like they brought in a high school coach to coach the NFL. You're going to get the kicked out of you. This isn't going to work. People in this country are not going.

[Zach]

To like voters are like the fans in this scenario.

[Rich]

Right.

[Zach]

They're just like, Trump is the.

[Rich]

Trump is gonna pull that coach in two seconds because Trump is an opportunist. Trump will look at this game plan and go, I thought this was gonna work. I thought I could bully my way through this shit. It's not gonna work. And I'm. Have you ever seen Trump die on a hill? No, never.

[Tim]

Well, let me.

[Zach]

He won't die on the Epstein Hill.

[Rich]

He won't die on any hill because that's true. Trump's nature is self preservation. Trump can give a fuck about his group. He cares about him. That's it.

[Tim]

Right. But he doesn't have any more elections. It doesn't matter.

[Rich]

It's his legacy. Trump cares more about legacy.

[Tim]

Let me ask him.

[Zach]

I think his legacy does matter a.

[Tim]

Well, let me ask you though this though. So you think that. Let's just say that there is a video similar to the one that we saw of the LAPD beating Rodney King in 1992. Whenever it was for him, beating the living shit out of this guy who was not a threat, caused riots, it was horrendous.

[Rich]

Yep.

[Tim]

So you're telling me if we see that with ice, he's going to pull back?

[Rich]

Yes, that's what I believe. I don't know if I'm right. I'm so. I would say I would break my confidence at 70%, but I'm 70% confident.

[Zach]

Well, it's, it's.

[Tim]

What does he say? Isn't pulling back meaning that he's admitting defeat.

[Rich]

No, no. Trump is the kind of person where he will stop the full tilt, push into what he's doing, and he will throttle back a bit and reassess.

[Zach]

He changes the subject immediately. But didn't he want to shoot protesters? Yeah, but he never did.

[Rich]

He never exactly. Trump says he wanted to nuke a hurricane. He never did that. Trump has a lot of people bad ideas.

[Zach]

He says the thing he never.

[Tim]

Chiefs were like, hell no, we're not doing. Millie was still there. He was like, I think there's.

[Rich]

Even though the. His in his current inner circle is. Is way worse than it was in his first term, there are still like functional adults in the room that know, like, oh, this is going to be a complete meltdown. Like, there's not a lot, but there's still a couple.

[Zach]

That's the thing we've ever said about.

[Tim]

Whoa, well, who. Who is that?

[Rich]

I think it depend. I don't. I honestly think that Susan Wiles is probably the best bet you've got there.

[Zach]

She's pragmatic.

[Rich]

I think she's pragmatic. She's pragmatic and she's the one who's in his ear the most.

[Zach]

She's the one who turn true social. You like. I guarantee, like, everybody in my comments is like, oh, Stephen Miller, no, Steven Miller didn't turn.

[Rich]

Miller wants to push.

[Zach]

Susan Wiles is the one who would be like, what if we turned off your public posts as you're like tweeting out, like, there's still people in there.

[Rich]

That are like, right in his ear. Like, hey, I know all these lunatics are right here, but this is wrong. And, and it's gonna you over well.

[Tim]

But you got, you got Susan, but I don't know who the second person is.

[Rich]

I don't think you need a second. Like, Trump is the kind of person where, like, wherever the wind blows in that moment, he's kind of gonna go with it. And I think he's trusted her for an extremely long time. I look, I don't want to put this whole. It's just the first name that pops in my head. I'm sure that there's other people.

[Zach]

She's one of them, though.

[Rich]

Yeah, she is. Definitely.

[Zach]

There are survivors. There are people who die for him and then there are survivors. And he, he doesn't have a lot in there. But, like, he also is looking like, I 100% agree. He's looking for self preservation. He never admits defeat, but you do see him change the subject. Like, we. I got so much Shit, when I was like, elon Musk is out. Like, guys, just give it like four weeks. We're real close. Like in March was like, shit's getting weird. And it was clear that shit's getting weird. But they're not saying. Remember when Trump and Elon were like on TV together and they're like, they want us to hate each other, but we love each other. Like fucking four weeks later he was like, trump's on the Epstein list, you know, and it's like, okay, okay, okay.

[Rich]

Also, I want to say one thing though, because Trump really does operate more than anything like a mob boss. That's kind of his thing and what he's been like a lot of people. And I agree to a certain degree that a lot of what you can look at Trump and say is luck, that he's locked out in a lot of situations. But most of it isn't luck. Most of it is predicated on this specific thing, that when Trump understands that he's literally on the edge of complete self destruction or stopping doing what he's.

[Zach]

Trying to do, he's bankrupt himself like 12 times and he somehow finds his way back to billions of dollars.

[Rich]

He has this crazy balance of like the second he's about to fall off the cliff, he goes, oh, hold on a second. And he's right back in the mix. And I guarantee the same things will be happen here because I've never seen it not go that way, way with Trump ever. I can't think of a single example.

[Zach]

Never died on a head. Right.

[Luke]

So the reason why we're talking about ICE using violence against people is because we're talking about Donald Trump changing the subject from Epstein. Yes, right. Like that, that is our, I'm, I mean, again, going back, putting my threat analyst hat on. This is what's happening anyway. Like the ICE shit, the violence, the, the, like two years from now, three years from now, ICE is going to be tremendous. It's going to be full with morons.

[Rich]

Yes.

[Luke]

Who are extremely dangerous to, to be carrying firearms, to be given a badge, to be given a mask, to be given armor and fudgeing armored trucks. There is no world in which one video of like a Rodney King type situation saturates the media and gets, gets all Americans to believe the same thing. There is, there is no fucking world like if, if you watch Fox News Today, if you watch Oan Breitbart, like any of these streaming platforms that are producing thousands of hours of video and audio every single week, that half of America at least is, is More tuned into than not. Their version of reality is always going to have the ice guys are the victims.

[Zach]

There could be 16 if they're listening to Anderson, though.

[Rich]

Well, I think there's a better analog. There's a better analog, King. It's George Floyd, right? You don't need the whole country to look around and go, hey, we all agree, but you need enough people to go, oh, that's super up. And it creates a movement. And I think, like, even if you're right, like, Fox News tried to create any kind of narrative they could to get people off of George Floyd. They were desperate to be like, oh, wait a minute, what about that? All right, yeah, but most of the country went, you know, shut the fuck up, dude. It's. I'm watching it, all right? You can't make me think something different from what I'm fucking watching. If you have a video like that, yeah, you'll have. 30% of the country is just never going to leave that fucking hill. But you'll have 20% of the country that's in the middle right now that likes Trump go, oh, that was rough.

[Zach]

And he really.

[Rich]

That's what.

[Zach]

He really wants those people, too.

[Luke]

He really needs them.

[Rich]

I mean, the whole MAGA movement depends on those people going with them.

[Tim]

Let me ask you this, though, because, I mean, I think you're right. I don't disagree with that. But if George Floyd had happened in Mississippi or Arkansas, does. Does that go the same way? Because at least in Minneapolis and Minnesota in general, you had Tim Walls, who's a great governor, you had a good mayor, and they actually did what they were supposed to do. They arrested him immediately and charged him with murder. And then we had a Biden administrator. No, excuse me.

[Rich]

Biden won and beat. No, that was the Trump administration.

[Tim]

When it happened, did Trump charge him with terrorism charges?

[Rich]

I don't think so.

[Chris]

I don't think so.

[Tim]

Because he has federal charges. He had federal.

[Rich]

Trump didn't do on that. From what I could, they were civil.

[Luke]

Rights charges, they weren't terrorism charges.

[Tim]

So I'm sorry, civil rights. Well, that. That still might have been Biden in 2021, though, after.

[Rich]

I mean, a huge element of Biden's victory was using the BLM movement to, like, bolster up the case.

[Tim]

I guess my point is, like, I think you're. I think you're right in certain places where there is our structures and systems in place that will actually take care of this. But it worries me about, I mean, I guess most of the border state. Well, Texas I mean, I mean if, if a, if an ICE agent kneels on an undocumented worker in Texas and kills him, I don't think he's going to get charged.

[Rich]

I don't think the charge, like, I don't, to me, the, the thing that matters is a social movement and the video that you're seeing with your own eyes. Like, I understand that maybe it plays a role what happened in the system, but, but the truth of the matter is what you see with your own eyes. It doesn't matter if I saw it in Mississippi or in Arkansas or in California, it's fucked. And people are gonna go, I don't like this, this is not good.

[Tim]

I want you to be right and me wrong. But like, there's also the case in South Carolina where the cop literally shot a guy, a black guy, in the back. That didn't change anybody's perception of the police in South Carolina. I think it's different though.

[Rich]

Like the thing that made George Floyd so different was because of the inhumane nature in which he died. Shooting something back is inhumane regardless. But this guy was essentially tor tortured in front of people and killed. Agreed, that's a different thing. So I think if something like that, where you go look at, there's just no humanity in this. Like gunshot's a split second decision. This guy kneeling on this dude until he dies.

[Luke]

I just think the difference between now and then is that was a catalyzing moment and the two sides have, have been through. Yeah, the, the like experience their side. You are either cops can kill anyone, right. Or cops shouldn't kill anyone. No minds are changing. So my point is, is that Donald Trump is going to lean on provoking violence because that is what his base is most passionate about. That is where his base, they're gonna not give a shit about kids anymore or any of the Jeff, Jeffrey Epstein stuff. It's all going to be about they like when the state uses violence against their enemies, it's going to be people of color, it's going to be, you know, blue haired hippies or whatever. Right. It's going, the person who is the recipient of the violence is going to be perceived as the enemy to Trump's base. So when this happens it's going to just rile them up. Yes, it may rile us up as well, but the more conflict the better in Trump's world.

[Rich]

I just want to clarify, like I'm not like, I don't think MAGA minds will change on this ship at all. Like I think that you're Right. I think that those people are like invested in this being the outcome, but I don't think the majority, I think that's, I honestly, if I were to like fragment out the people who voted in this last election, I think it's 30% of people voted MAGA and the rest that Trump got were somewhere in the middle, just like they're voting for the economy. Whatever.

[Zach]

Even if half of Trump voters are full blown like MAGA, that's still about 12% of the American public and about 25% of voters. Exactly.

[Rich]

So, like, I don't think those people ever change their mind. I think it's the people who held their nose and voted for Trump, voted for Trump strictly based on economics or didn't fully think through what the humanity of the immigration actions would be. Those people's minds, I think can be altered by something that is clearly inhumane. I believe. I mean, I could be wrong. I'm not, I think.

[Zach]

Let me give you an example. I totally agree and I know quite a number of people who voted for Trump, whether it's, you know, family or whether it's through family or friends. If something like that were to happen, those are the times when I would not go from like, I'm going to not talk to you about politics at Thanksgiving, but we're still going to eat turkey in the same house to we can't exist in the same universe together if you are going to continue to back this. And that's when a person like me, who's very moderate, I want to keep the peace. I want to like everybody, I want everybody to like me. I will finally force myself to say, okay, well, saying you voted for Trump for egg prices is one thing, but now you have to own this thing that just happened. And if there's something that, that happens, like that his base will shrink and there will be a very loyal portion of his base that, that won't change their, their, their mind. But I think that's where we need Trump to, out of sheer self interest, to not even like maybe decelerate, but maybe just change direction at the same speed. And like he's got all this money earmarks for ice. But you also know that like Trump is the guy who would love nothing more than to say, just like he did with Doge, just like he did with Musk. Well, I thought this was the great investment because I was trying to make American great. But these guys are all fucking idiots. Like, look what he did with Iran and Israel, right? No, they don't know what the fuck they're doing. He loves to, to turn on people and throw them under the bus and say that they're dumber than they, than they were supposed to be or than they're dumber than he is. And so like, there's always that option on the table and we just, we just need him to do that out of self interest, not because he's doing the right thing, but because it's the best for him to survive.

[Tim]

So, yeah, I think that's right. I, I think we're all in agreement. A lot of, I think my big question comes down to this in the second term, where his popularity numbers are going to probably continue to drop because this bill is implemented. It's bad, it's already happening. And Epstein, or whatever, whatever, my question is that we put $150 billion in two or three years into this essentially lawless force and they start doing shit that people don't like. Does Donald Trump go with his base and the people who love it and are foaming at the mouth, or does he go with the moderates and the Democrats? And that's where I get, that's where I have a hard time imagining he's going to do the latter because he is, when he leaves office, he is going to be, be using that base to sell Trump trinkets and all this. Right. That he wants them to buy coins and all this crap. Right. And if he moves theoretically to the center and disavows them, he will end up with no support.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Tim]

So that's why I have, like, I get it, like, I, I, I agree that he tries to get out of everything and he's quite good at it. But I just, in this particular case, he's like, we're finally getting to the thing, right. That he has always promised, promised and that is violence and elimination of minority populations in this country at the behest of white people. And so this is, it's, it's becoming like game time. Right? You're right about the game time, but I just don't know where he's gonna go when it goes sideways because it's gonna go sideways.

[Rich]

I don't think that, for me, I don't think it's any of those things. I think you're, the question is right, but I don't think all the options are on the table. I don't think it's, he has to go with MAGA or he has to go to the middle to, with Democrats. I just think he looks at this situation and goes, I'll just throttle back A little. He doesn't have.

[Luke]

Like, he essentially has to get him to shut up. Right.

[Rich]

Like, I don't have to stop pursuing mass deportations. I just have to change the way in which I pursue it a little bit so it's not inhumane. Like, he doesn't have to go against.

[Zach]

Say, you're deporting the worst people and then just don't deport. You could just not deport anyone fully. Just say, I'm deporting all the worst people. And all of his people would believe.

[Rich]

It, but it's all just functionally like you. He needs in that situation. If there is this video that comes out that's inhumane and horrible and ICE is acting poorly, all he has to do internally is go, hey, the next person who does shit like this, I'm gonna fucking destroy you. You can't do that shit. But the mission is still going to look bad, right? Exactly. Like, and I think like that top, like, I agree with Chris, like, the risk of this for Trump is that there's gonna be a tremendous amount of unqualified people in these positions. And throttling the back is not gonna be easy because Trump's not on the ground with them. But at the same time, these people listen to Trump's edicts and he goes, hey, this is what we're doing. And people go, all right, shit. And that's it. So I think that the most likely option is he won't stop pursuing what he's pursuing. He'll just change the course in which he's pursuing it to suit him enough. That's just my.

[Tim]

I want to ask. Luke, I'm going to put you on the spot, all right? You're in a red state and you know lots of MAGA people. What do you think about all of this? Do you think that when then ICE starts? I mean, because I hate to say this, that it's a fact, but, like, we put 150 billion, which means tens of thousands of unqualified ice, they're gonna, they're gonna hurt people.

[Zach]

3,000 a day. That's their goal.

[Tim]

Yeah. Like, what do you. What are you. Like, first of all, I'd love to hear your opinion. But also, like, from a younger person perspective, are people paying attention to this or is it just like, whatever.

[Chris]

I kind of gonna maybe locate myself a little bit here. But there was a kid that, there's like a. I think he was 16 year old kid that just got deported from around here not too long ago. He plays soccer. Like, he was a big, like, Everybody in the community liked him and half the people are like, what the. Bring this kid back. He's been here since he was three.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Chris]

And everybody else went him and like there's some sign, like there are signs around town that are like, bring this kid back. And then there are people writing on top of them, this kid. And it's like, holy. It's fit. Like it is schism straight down the middle.

[Tim]

But, but your area is, is more Trump though, right? So 50, 50 would be less than like what he got in the election. Right. So like it is, it is hitting.

[Zach]

Some people just not sad that we're in that place.

[Tim]

I hate, I hate that we're doing.

[Chris]

This, but like I hate it because.

[Tim]

I mean a 16 year old kid in regardless, like I don't even know the situation and I know that kid should be here. It's just like crazy.

[Rich]

He doesn't know, he doesn't know Armory from another.

[Tim]

But what. But the point is, right, like that 50, 50 is not good enough for Trump. No, right, like because he's losing at 50.

[Chris]

He's grinding in that area.

[Tim]

Right. Like if he was 50, 50 in New York City, he'd be dancing in the street. Right. Because it would be like good for him. This was supposed to be all about Jeffrey Epstein and we went all over the place.

[Zach]

But who is that?

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Zach]

Oh, the guy with the.

[Tim]

Who the bed sheet.

[Chris]

That one guy?

[Tim]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's not the. Well, is that in the video? I don't.

[Zach]

Anyways, I made assumptions. I'm sorry.

[Tim]

So both with ICE and with Jeffrey Epstein, we think, I think the group kind of generally agrees there's at least some people fumble those two issues that may be disaffected Trump voters.

[Rich]

Definitely.

[Tim]

And the question, and this was the question we asked Joe Walsh last week, who was a member of Congress that on the Republican side was a Tea Party member and is just registered as a Democrat. How do we like if they want to come, do we want to welcome them into our space? And if we do, how do we do do that? Because I know there's a lot of that these people have done over the years or supported that is abhorrent.

[Luke]

But I think we're gonna.

[Tim]

Math doesn't work.

[Luke]

Can you define we? Because the answer for me is no. Them.

[Zach]

Can we.

[Rich]

My answer for me is 100 yes.

[Zach]

Are we emotionally welcoming them or are we politically welcoming?

[Tim]

Politically, I don't need, we don't have, we don't need to have a beer with them.

[Chris]

We just, we're Supposed to be. If there's. If we're supposed to be a big tent, they should have a big giant tarp under them that they have to stand on. And the second they start off, whoosh, out the exit, we.

[Zach]

We get a big tent. But their part of the tent is, like, where they.

[Chris]

They can be quarantined by themselves.

[Zach]

Where they keep the. The circus freaks in the corner. Like, we push them off the diving board with the donkey.

[Rich]

That's funny.

[Tim]

All right, guys, so here's. This is. This is the political guy coming out. We don't have the numbers to die.

[Rich]

No.

[Tim]

So this is the problem that I have.

[Zach]

That is the only correct answer.

[Tim]

I agree. Like, I don't want to talk to any people who think that, especially after January 6th, like, you know, that. That this is fine.

[Zach]

Access Hollywood, but we just.

[Tim]

They're not enough of the guys that are on this call.

[Rich]

Right.

[Tim]

Or the ones that we want to bring in from listening to this or, you know, even the. The Biden voters who stayed home, because even if we get them back, we're squeaking elections for the next two decades in. Is horrifying.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Tim]

So what do we do with this? Is there an opportunity for us to, like, present a different approach? Because Andrew Schultz, who is a joke, because, like, his whole thing, like, I didn't know Trump was going to do all the things that he said he was going to do.

[Rich]

Right.

[Tim]

But he also. Do you. Do you know what the second part of that conversation was? The only party in America that is thinking about its citizens. Democratic. Far left of the Democratic Party.

[Chris]

The Democratic Socialist.

[Zach]

Yep.

[Rich]

Yes.

[Luke]

Oh, but you skip the middle part where he said. Said he was excited about the deportations.

[Tim]

Oh, yeah. I don't like this guy.

[Luke]

Yeah.

[Tim]

I just.

[Luke]

I'm just saying we have to remember that he was like. But the good thing is he's.

[Tim]

He's ripping.

[Zach]

Unfortunately, racism is going strong, but this.

[Tim]

But this is the inherent challenge. Right. Because, like, Right, theoretically, this guy is maybe, like, interested in a Bernie or a Zoran or something like that. Right. But, like, what do we. Well do with this?

[Rich]

I'll give you.

[Luke]

I want you to define we, Tim.

[Zach]

Are you.

[Luke]

Are you saying we the Democrats? Are you saying we the members of the Find out podcast?

[Tim]

That is a very good point. I am referring to Democrats, and I'm talking about winning elections. That's all.

[Chris]

You got to take it.

[Rich]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No. 100%.

[Chris]

You don't have a choice.

[Rich]

I mean, they don't need to be.

[Tim]

Buddy. They don't need to join. We're not going to invite Andrew to be a co host on this show.

[Rich]

No, no.

[Chris]

But I do think there's value in. In when you get to. When you say, okay, I'm going to be a Democrat now. I'm going to vote for it. You shouldn't get to just go, okay, welcome. You should have to get grilled on.

[Rich]

Yeah. You got to atone for your sins.

[Chris]

Well, yeah, exactly.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Chris]

A big bearded guy should sit there and go, so what the were you thinking?

[Zach]

It's like the gates of heaven.

[Rich]

I totally agree with that. I think that's what you thinking for.

[Tim]

Me, really great back there. But you got to answer these.

[Rich]

You got to let me know why you did this. I mean, I. I look at this through the same lens you look at pretend where I, like, I just want to win. I could give a. And like, I look at these guys as pawns. They're pawns in our scheme. Right? Like, we don't have to invite them in and be like, hey, have a seat next to me. You can play. You could be the rook or the bishop. You. You're going to be a pawn. You're going to be right in the. That's why you're in the fire. I don't give a. You die first. It's not a quest. Like, I don't want to invite him and give him a beer like you said. I want to invite him in and use them as a number. That's it. I. But I think the challenge we face is if we come at him and we present that face to them, they're not going to come in. They're going to look at us and go, they don't want me. So we have to give them at least room. Because I think, like, look, as much as we hate Maga and Trump and all these things, a lot of these people that even though we have objectionably different belief systems from them, a lot of them are just, like, regular people who are, like, misled or not smart enough to see that they've been lied to. And, like, they're. They're kind of victims. Like, I know it's hard to consider magic people.

[Chris]

I have a little bit of sympathy for.

[Rich]

I do, too. And it's a lot of them. Like, it's a lot of them, the.

[Chris]

Ones cheering for them, but they're not going to leave.

[Rich]

Those aren't the ones who are going to leave. The ones who leave are the ones who were like, oh, my God, I was wrong this whole time. And they have this moment where. Because they were wrong the whole time, because they're just not smart enough to see it. So I don't necessarily want to, like, put them in the fire and be like, you fucking idiot. Look what you did. Because you're not meant to be capable to figure it out.

[Zach]

I don't think they could handle the weight of accountability. So it's like, no, hey, buddy, cheaper eggs are over here. And they're like, oh, right.

[Rich]

I guess just pull them in.

[Zach]

Guess for the lady.

[Luke]

So what My. My personal bias coming out of, like the counter extremism world, we. We have a term. They call themselves this formers. Like former members of hate groups which are effectively cults. Like, sure, if you join a hate group, you've joined a cult. Like, you have given away your life to the leader right there. I have seen so many formers come in and they're like, you know, they suddenly get their pats on the back. They're. They're invited into all the rooms and all the discussions. They spend, you know, a year or two, like literally getting put on a pedestal or given.

[Zach]

Everyone wants to learn from them. Yeah.

[Luke]

And then the next thing you know, they're taking the money that they've raised from the left and they've started a new hate group. So I. I can't. I mean, me. I'm talking about me personally.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Luke]

Like, I can't engage with these people. I will always. And I'm. I'm not, you know, one of those.

[Chris]

You're tainted liberal who.

[Luke]

Who loves everybody. I'm filled with hate. Like, these people have actively tried to destroy my country for 10 years. These people have. Have either through inaction or on purpose, worked to take away my daughter's rights.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Chris]

He's gonna hate them.

[Luke]

And I'm not gonna stop.

[Tim]

So I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna play a bit of a devil's advocate here or a question for you. You. For you, Chris, and you, Zach.

[Rich]

Okay.

[Tim]

And it's not quite the same, but you were both Republicans.

[Zach]

Were.

[Rich]

Yes.

[Tim]

Were. No.

[Zach]

I just want to put an asterisk on were. Were, like, emphasis. Yeah.

[Tim]

And did you guys get put through the ringer? Because I would. I would argue that me in 2007 would have seen two guys that voted for George W. Bush, who supported the greatest foreign policy disaster in probably US History that completely destabilized the reason we had. Have now, who demonized gay people in order to win re election in 2004. He even demonized John McCain having a. An Adopted black son in South Carolina. His campaign pushed that.

[Zach]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim]

I would have been a little suspect of you guys in that period of time.

[Luke]

I can tell you very well should have been.

[Rich]

Yeah. As you should be.

[Tim]

So, so, but then what is the, what is the appropriate. Because you went through it, right? I'm not doing it to criticize you. I'm asking you how did that feel? Coming, coming. Moving left.

[Rich]

Mine, mine's a little like you're a.

[Tim]

Little later, but yeah, but I mean.

[Rich]

It'S different to like, you know, for me, I don't, this is gonna probably make people angry. I don't feel like I'm a Democrat in title only. I'm an independent. I, I have a lot of beliefs that go to the right. I just hate Trump and maga. Like, I don't agree all that pushed me out of that, that world. But a lot of what I initially believed was just sort of like policy oriented. Right. So like, like I never really felt like I needed to fit in with Democrats. I just wanted to vote for people who weren't going to ruin the country. And for me that ended up being Joe Biden. You know, I didn't vote in 16 and I voted in 2020 for Biden and obviously I voted for Harrison 24. I still don't look at myself as a quote unquote Democrat. I may, you know, somewhat left leaning Independent at this point just because of the circumstances on the ground. So I never went through that like that course where you go, hey, are you going to welcome me in? Do I need. Because I don't give like I, for me as a voter personally, I don't need a party. I don't give a fuck if I, with what you're bringing to the table. And I think you're a person who can lead. I'm a vote for you. If I don't, I'm not going to. And that's to me what the, the heart of an independent is. So I, I, I think a lot of people who would come over are a lot like that and that's why I think it's important that we remember like, it's not so much about like, let me welcome you with open arms and here's a, here's a, you know, a glass of milk for you, sit by the fire, it'd be fine. We don't need that shit necessarily. It's more just like, can I, like.

[Zach]

Half an hour ago.

[Rich]

It'S, can I trust you, you to not make the same mistakes that pushed me out of my Previous set of alignment. Really? Because, like, that was Trump for me. Trump came in and I was like, okay, I don't like this guy, but I'll give him a chance. This is back in 16. I was like, look, it's an interesting idea having an insane businessman try to run America. Who the hell knows what's going to happen? He might treat America like a business. It might work out. That's why I voted for omni in 12, because I thought a businessman running America might not be a bad idea. So as the course of his term went on, I went, oh, this is probably a bad idea. But then Covid happened, which is really the first time. Like, his ship was really taking on water. And I was like, oh, this guy is complete dog shit and he doesn't care about human beings. And that is when I went, no, I'm done. And you have a whole movement of people that went on board with that type of thinking. They were like, no, I like that he doesn't care about people. And I, like, that's where I went, nope, I'm done. Goodbye. And right. So, like, when you get into that kind of perspective, it's less about party and more just about feel. And my feel was like, yes, this group, dude, I'm out. You know, that's just me.

[Luke]

Yeah. I think, for me. So I. I don't think of myself as a Democrat first. Like, the Democrats are the party that want to preserve the United States.

[Rich]

Yes.

[Luke]

Like, and preserve the concept.

[Zach]

Right.

[Rich]

So that's.

[Luke]

That's why it's. That's why they're the party that I'm.

[Rich]

People in the room. Yeah.

[Luke]

So that's. That's why it's the party that I'm a part of.

[Rich]

Right.

[Luke]

You know, I. I tend not to really even think of myself on a spectrum of left to right. Certainly not anymore, because I am focused solely on anti fascism. I am focused on the worst of the worst threats of which. Welcome to my world. This is the shit that I've been warning about for four years.

[Zach]

Right. Right.

[Luke]

I've been trying to tell the left it's going to get this bad, and nobody on the left, believe me. Which is why I also hate. Hate Democrats. Like, I have. I have worked my ass off for now. I've been doing the counter extremism thing since. I mean, infiltrating extremist organizations since. Since 2020. Disinformation and radicalization for a few years before that. So, like, you know, almost 10 years. When you combine all of that and the thing that drives Me nuts about the Democrats is they can't get out of their own goddamn way. And that's. And that's why, like, you know, I can't think of myself as a Democrat. And, like, if I walk into a lot of rooms, me, like, as an individual, I walk into a lot of rooms where people say out loud, I don't feel safe with you in the room, looking at me as. As a. As a white guy, as someone who served in the military. And I'm sitting there like, I spent 40,000 fucking dollars after a neo Nazi showed up at my mother's house to hand deliver a death threat. I went back and forth to Asheville, North Carolina, and. And spent fucking tons of time going to fucking court, doing all the right things, getting a fucking neo Nazi locked up. I spent fucking years infiltrating extremist organizations, gathering all of the evidence necessary to secure a $3 million judgment all at once in one fucking lawsuit. And you still don't feel fucking safe in the room. Room with me because of the way that I look. Like, that's why you should put all.

[Zach]

That on a shirt so they can just read it.

[Luke]

Like, I hate all of these people. Right? Like, and again, I use the word hate deliberately. I hate these people because we could be doing so much better.

[Rich]

Yes.

[Luke]

Like, our country and, and the left and Democrats and progressives and people fighting against actual dangerous hate. If these people would just shut the up and use their goddamn brains and be objective and be like, the guy hunting Nazis is probably not a threat to me.

[Rich]

Yeah, I probably let him in.

[Tim]

I. As somebody who was literally in the. The college Democrats, actually, I only went to one meeting because I looked around the room and I went. And we were in a very red area. I was like, oh, this is. I'm just gonna go back to my. My room and drink with my buddies. But I have always taken a much more of approach of, like, welcoming. Like, if people are willing to, like, switch, I'm just like, right, man, come on over. Like, you know, not in a. Like, and then let them raise money.

[Rich]

And forget what they did kind of stuff.

[Tim]

And. And I guess maybe that's because more like, I've been in that world and it's kind of. It's not that it's a game, but it's, like, very transactional. But it's fascinating, though, that me as a demo, I've been a Democrat my entire life.

[Rich]

I think.

[Tim]

Think when I was like, four or five. Luke, you're going to, like, throw up when you hear this. But I think I remember being excited that Ronald Reagan won and I, I made this up in my brain and my parents.

[Chris]

Your fault?

[Tim]

My parent. No.

[Rich]

Yes.

[Zach]

When I voted at 5, the beginning.

[Tim]

Of the end, my parents were like.

[Rich]

Why did you say that?

[Tim]

You, Timmy, you.

[Rich]

That's your shirt.

[Tim]

For those of you who didn't watch last week, which you definitely should, Joe Walsh, the former congressman, said you, Timmy, I think three times to me.

[Zach]

So it was more delicious every time he used it.

[Rich]

It was, I just thought it was.

[Tim]

Funny because like, if I had actually met him in 2010 when he, when I was in the Obama administration and he was in Congress, he might have actually said you, Timmy, in like a derogatory way. But, but it's just very fascinating. But it's, I'm, it's fascinating in this group though, because like, I am the one that's been in Democratic politics the longest and I'm kind of like, bring them all over. And like some of you guys who, like, I mean, obviously you've done the work and all these things are more than like, keep them at bay. It's just fascinating how we all come to this in a slightly different, a different way. Like, I think for Joe, for example, Joe Walsh, who again if you didn't watch, was a one term congress member, Tea Party, and then I think endorsed Trump in 2016 and then pretty much right after renounced it, was running against him in 2020 and then became a Democrat. And a lot of people have been angry at him, but I'm like, he's done the work and I've talked to him for years. But I, I think that's the thing, right? It's like there has to be some sort of mechanism and I don't know what it is. That's basically like, you're not just doing this to us. You're like, this is like from your heart. And I don't know quite how to do that. Joe's done the work. I truly believe that. But like, I, I don't know how to really.

[Luke]

So what I, I think is, what I think I could have said in a much shorter way is like, I still don't feel welcome in the Democratic Party. So like, why the. Should I go out of my way to make former MAGA feel welcome?

[Zach]

But what if that's what is. So what if all of them.

[Luke]

What my focus, and I'm not saying all of our focus needs to be. What my focus is, is getting people off the sidelines.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Luke]

Like it.

[Zach]

Right.

[Luke]

Like if you, A lot of People that didn't vote.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Chris]

People who didn't vote.

[Luke]

Yeah, tons of people don't they feel disenfranchised. And I want them to say, like, it doesn't matter if you feel disenfranchised. Fascism's coming for you and your children.

[Zach]

Yeah.

[Tim]

You need to vote.

[Luke]

Or they're just coming faster.

[Zach]

So, like, it's not a battle you get to pick to fight.

[Rich]

Yeah, right.

[Zach]

It's either going to defeat you or you're going to fight against it. I think the thing that was really, I've spent a good amount of time thinking about Joe's comments about all of this shit that like, because we're so in it. Right. But like, for somebody who's at a, you know, arm's distance from Trump, he has talked so much shit, I mean, frankly, his entire fucking life and 95% of it has been he's just talking constantly. He's saying things, he's pitching brands that go under and he's like, that's the best. And then he does something else. I, I do believe that like a good chunk is. Even after his first term, he talked a lot of shit and he still, if he hadn't gotten the three Supreme Court justices, we would be talking and if Covid hadn't just happened to him, we would be talking about one tax cut bill that he passed that is his entire. And like maybe the Muslim ban for like six months, that is his whole first term legacy. Yeah, he talked all this and he, and he did because he's incompetent, but also because he's like a crow with a shiny object. Like he's so distractible that he just either abandons things because he sucks at doing it or because he gets distracted by another thing. And so I, I do think a lot of people who are like 10 paying attention were like, ah, this is going to be more of that.

[Tim]

Right.

[Zach]

Like, he's just going to say a lot of. But like, ultimately it's really not going to be like the end of the world world. But, but he, it actually, he's actually trying to kind of do the end of the world now. And, and so I do think that there are like, we might want to strangle him. But I do think there are a number of people who are looking at him and going, oh my God. He's like maybe doing more maybe of the stuff that I was, that I, that I thought was just talking.

[Rich]

Right.

[Zach]

And now maybe I kind of don't love it. And like, and that's probably the most they'll think about it and then they'll vote for somebody else and somebody. So, like, if that's going to be the. If it's. If it's the guy at the bar next to me having a beer and I, like, I don't, like, I'll talk to him about fudgeing football for like five minutes and I'm like, okay, I'm out of this conversation. If that's the guy and I need him to be on my side, I'll be like, yeah, dude, fucking Trump, man. What happened to that fucking guy anyway? I'm going to nut job. Yeah, fuck that guy. And then like, leave the room, you know? Like, that might be the extent of the conversation. If that's how. If that's my version of welcoming them back in or like welcoming them back to a path that isn't actively fucking killing people, I'll like, I'll take that tiny version of a win and I'll just like, go back to my regular life.

[Tim]

Rich, what are you doing over the next 18 months? I think we got to send you on tours of rural dive bars, dude.

[Zach]

I, I can, I can dive bar.

[Tim]

It one on one.

[Zach]

I'll drink the worst beer, the worst whiskey. I'll lose it pool. Like, I'll just do. I'll lose to all of them as long as they vote for the right person. Speaking of losers, this isn't you, Luke. But Luke, I wanted to talk to you about something.

[Rich]

I don't.

[Zach]

So I'm in Atlanta. You guys may have noticed. Zach and I are on the same, the same camera. And we went to Stone Mountain today. And so I wanted to talk to Luke about this specifically because I just feel like he'll have the right reaction, like the appropriate reaction. Okay, so Luke, a long time ago, a bunch of shitty racist people, they. They saw this massive stone mountain. What do you think they did to the side of the Stone Mountain? Do you want to take a guess as to what they might have thought? Like, you see a big blank canvas. What do you think they did to the side of the mountain?

[Chris]

I got no clue.

[Zach]

So they carved the fucking shit out of it. They just, they like big beautiful monument. It's like four miles deep of granite. They carve the shit out of it, put a fucking like two football field size carving into the side. Do you want to guess whose faces they carved into the side of this giant monument?

[Rich]

Oh, God.

[Zach]

We're in Georgia and this is like 100 years ago.

[Chris]

100 years ago ago.

[Rich]

Yeah.

[Chris]

I got no idea. I don't I?

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Zach]

I don't know. Okay. Would you be surprised if they carved the President of the Confederacy into the side of a mountain?

[Chris]

No, that would not surprise me.

[Zach]

And his two top generals Sounds about right.

[Chris]

And would you accurately. Sounds about white.

[Zach]

Sounds about white, yeah. Would you be surprised to find out that the, that the per. That the people who paid for the carving was the kkk?

[Tim]

Also?

[Zach]

No.

[Tim]

No shock there.

[Zach]

And also would you be surprised to find out that the person who did the carving, well, he was born in Idaho, it turns out. I looked that up and I was like, oh, course, moved to Georgia, was also a loyal friend of the KKK's grand wizard at the time. Would that surprise you?

[Tim]

No.

[Rich]

Surprise. No.

[Zach]

So we're at this thing and I look at it and I was like, that's a carving on the side. It's like Mount Rushmore for somebod.

[Chris]

Blow that up.

[Zach]

Right? And the best thing about it, I mean, in this sick world we live in, is like, the guy did the carving and like, started in like 1923. I learned all this today on Wikipedia. Starts the carving. This is apparently a thing like Nazis having crash outs with each other is like my favorite thing to research now on the Internet because the guy started the, the, the. The carving and they all got in a fight like Elon and Don't Donald. And so they sandblasted all of his work to nothing. And then they paid other Nazis to re. Carve all of the same in the side of the mountain.

[Rich]

Jesus.

[Zach]

And that's. And that's what's on the side of the mountain right now today.

[Rich]

And it's our like, number one tourist.

[Tim]

Wait, does the. Did the KKK in the 1800s have a. Have a, like a. A list of artists that they could go to? I don't know the backups.

[Zach]

So. So I read that the guy who. It's all really like, I think it was this. A lot of the same people did. Did the Mount Rushmore that did Stone Mountain.

[Rich]

Oh, really? I didn't know that.

[Zach]

And they found a letter with one of the people. I'll probably some of the history up, but they found a letter with one of the. The carvers or with the grand wizard of the kkk. When he died, he had a letter that was to the. One of the. The artists that said, like, to my dear beloved oldest friend, so and so. And like, like he just straight up named the. The artist who did all this carving. And so like, there was some, like, will they. Won't they? Like, are they secretly kkk, Ross and Rachel.

[Rich]

So glad. This is like my. My number one tourist destination in my city. It's great. I feel really. I didn't know any of this, by.

[Zach]

The way, until today. So you go there and it's like, oh, this is. This is beautiful. And then you open the Internet and you're like, oh, course. Ruins everything.

[Tim]

It is Georgia, the South.

[Rich]

It is Georgia. There's no question.

[Tim]

Well, I tell you what, guys, we have been going. This is maybe our longest episode ever.

[Chris]

Pretty long.

[Rich]

Get me the off this.

[Tim]

I'm so, I'm so glad I pushed our merch at the beginning instead of the end end. But I'm going to do it again anyways. Obviously, if you want to support our work, which we desperately need, because this is not something that is just free to do, you can buy some merch at findout podcast findout podcast.com or if you want to become a member, you can go to findout podcast substack.com thank you guys. This was a fun one. We actually were worried we were not going to have enough to say, but there are five guys.

[Luke]

Whoops.

[Tim]

Absolutely love the sound of we haven't.

[Luke]

Gone to eps all day know Epstein, I don't know if we could talk about that for a whole episode, right?

[Tim]

Literally just passed a minute an hour 17. Our editor is going to be like, what the is talking about. Anyways, guys, thank you for listening, obviously. Please, please, please, please go become a member or go sign up for our merch. And I hope you enjoy this episode and we'll see you back on here on Thursday. Thanks, everybody.