Is "socialism" still scaring voters away?

Summary

The Find Out Podcast – "Is 'socialism' still scaring voters away?" (May 26, 2026)

Podcast: The Find Out Podcast
Hosts: Find Out Media & Studio71 (Zach, Luke, Tim Fullerton, Doug, Rich)
Guest: David Fenton (Progressive agitator, founder of Fenton Communications, author: The Activist Media Handbook)

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Episode Overview

This episode explores whether the label "socialism" still harms progressive candidates, especially after surprising victories by Democratic Socialists in New York. The hosts dig into election trends, messaging, political language, authenticity, climate policy, and the weaponization of issues like anti-Semitism in Democratic primaries. Veteran activist David Fenton shares lessons from his career in political communication, climate campaigning, and international solidarity work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Socialism" Label and Voter Behavior

• Recent NY Elections: Three Democratic Socialists ousted incumbents or won open seats previously held by mainstream Democrats, sparking accusations of antisemitism and warnings about socialism.
  • David Fenton's take: "I think it's terrific. Hooray. That the establishment's getting overthrown. ... Bravo to Zorin and AOC and DSA for running candidates that have authentic public appeal." (03:04)
• Power of Language
  • "As a student of language, I'm amazed that they're doing so well while calling themselves socialists. ... When you say the word socialist, to most people, it's a negative." (03:43)
  • Fenton suggests "economic democracy" as a better alternative: "That there should be checks and balances on all kinds of power, not only on political power. ... The direction we're heading is a revival of feudalism." (04:15)

2. Authenticity and the Desire for Real Representation

• Voters are tired of "corruption at the high levels of the Democratic Party... self perpetuation of Democratic elites who have abandoned the needs of average and working people for decades." (05:51)
• Authenticity is key: "You have to be authentic. You can't overthink what you say and do. ... The audience, the voters can smell it." (22:40)

3. Economic Anxiety, Populism, and Anti-Establishment Energy

• "People are struggling. Prices are incredibly high. ... The ever increasing profit margins of the biggest monopoly companies are fleecing people and they know it so they're demanding action." (05:51)
• The current movement is both a reaction to Trumpism and failure of mainstream Democrats.
• Success is tied to those who "seize and hold the moral high ground" across issues: "All successful struggles and social movements seize and hold the moral high ground." (32:52)

4. Climate Change: Messaging and Political Salience

• "The Democrats are really failing us on [climate change], which is really the uber issue. ... The climate is going to destroy our economy." (06:40)
• The need for relatable framing: "You say we put a blanket of pollution around the earth. And what do blankets do? They trap heat ... So, of course, we can explain this to people." (09:06)
• The problem of "climate hushing": "Our community is what we call climate hushing, not talking about it. It's a new form of climate denial, in effect." (12:19)

5. Lessons from the NY Fracking Ban Campaign

• Success came from uniting grassroots activism with celebrity power (Yoko Ono, Sean Lennon, Susan Sarandon, Paul McCartney): "The synthesis of the grassroots and the celebrities is what did it. It created enormous pressure on Governor Cuomo." (14:23)
• Effective messaging: "We made the issue about fracking about water, about the quality and safety of your water." (14:23)
• Memorable moment: After Cuomo repeatedly refused to meet with Yoko Ono, they produced an ad with her directly addressing him, forcing his hand: "He called her, you know, 10 minutes later and finally met with her. But he was so pissed by the way, he blacklisted me and my firm from ever working for any New York state agency again because we checkmated him." (16:00)

6. Weaponization of Issues and Intra-Party Battles

• On anti-Semitism claims post-election: "This anti Semitism thing is being weaponized. You know, I'm Jewish. ... The fact that Jewish voters in New York are rejecting this reflexive, pro Netanyahu, pro occupation policies is very healthy." (24:12)
• Clarifying anti-Semitism vs. criticism of Israel: "Real Jewish morality does not include killing 50,000 children. ... This is a scorched earth territorial expansion on the part of a very militaristic government. And none of it could happen without U.S. support. And it has to stop." (25:36)
• Living example: "Mandela was always against the Israeli occupation... but never anti Israel... he had no anger. After 27 years of imprisonment, he had transcended it." (31:23, 34:12)

7. Framing: The Lakoff Model and Moral Language

• Reference to George Lakoff’s "Don’t Think of an Elephant": Right/left politics as "strict father" vs. "nurturing parent"; winning is about activating "the progressive side of the biconceptual mental structure." (20:27)

8. Swing States, Independents, and the Message Beyond NYC

• Discussion of Dan Osborne in Nebraska and James Talarico in Texas as models for progressive inroads in red states, focusing on authentic economic populism and morality/biblical language. (19:17–21:26)

9. Party Labels, Policy, and the Public

• The difference between policy acceptance and the power of the "socialist" scare: "It reminds me of Obamacare where people were like, I hate Obamacare, but I like the Affordable Care act. ... Socialism is like this dirty word because Democrats have not defended it and Republicans have spent 40, 50 years attacking it. But when you actually ask people, do you like Social Security? That's socialism." (42:17–43:27)
• The real "signal from the noise": Policy substance and sincerity matter more than labels.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On defeating the 'socialism' stigma:
  "A lot of us think if Bernie hadn’t called himself a socialist, he would have won. But we need democratic socialism. I’m just not sure we should call it that." – David Fenton (03:53)

• On climate messaging:
  "We have put a blanket of pollution around the earth. And what do blankets do? They trap heat. ... Of course we can explain this to people." – David Fenton (09:06)

• On Democratic messaging failures:
  "The television media, which is still very powerful...they won't say this comes from the burning of fossil fuels and we need to transition off them as soon as possible. ... So people don't know and this makes it a low saliency issue because they don't hear about it." – David Fenton (11:19–12:44)

• On authenticity:
  "You have to be authentic. You can’t overthink what you say and do. You have to be yourself. Because the audience, the voters can smell it." – David Fenton (22:40)

• On framing and Lakoff's model:
  "The right is the strict father morality. Progressives are nurturing parents. And in between, there are people he calls the bi-conceptuals...The way you win in elections is to activate the progressive side..." – David Fenton (20:27)

• On Netanyahu and Israel:
  "This has got to be rejected if you support Israel. Many former Mossad and military people in Israel agree that the policies of this super right-wing government in Israel are undermining Israeli security. ... How is that antisemitic?" – David Fenton (25:36–27:24)

• On Mandela:
  "Mandela was the only saint I have ever met. He had no anger. After 27 years of imprisonment, he had transcended it." – David Fenton (31:23–34:12)

• On activism’s moral high ground:
  "All successful struggles and social movements seize and hold the moral high ground. And this is what the Democrats need to do against oligarchy...These are the moral issues. Health care, moral issue. So talk about it, be real and you'll win." – David Fenton (32:52)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:54 – Welcome, guest introduction: David Fenton’s background
• 03:04 – Reaction to NY Democratic Socialist victories
• 03:53–04:15 – The language problem with "socialism"
• 05:51 – Sources of Democratic Party voter frustration
• 06:40–12:44 – Climate communication, missed opportunities, "climate hushing"
• 14:23–17:00 – The New York fracking ban campaign and lessons learned
• 19:17–21:26 – Will red state progressives break through via economic populism?
• 20:27 – Lakoff and the power of political framing
• 24:12–27:24 – Antisemitism allegations and the Israel/Palestine debate
• 31:23–34:12 – Lessons from the anti-apartheid movement and Mandela's leadership
• 42:17 – Socialism as a "dirty word" vs. realities of popular policies

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Additional Insights

• Voter Engagement: The left can win on substance and authenticity, especially when making moral arguments and relating policies to people’s everyday experiences (e.g., healthcare, energy prices, water safety).
• Crisis Framing: Democratic voters—especially in blue strongholds—expect their electeds to "act like we're in an existential crisis." (40:25)
• National vs. Local: Success in NYC does not mean a DSA sweep nationwide; different jurisdictions require nuanced, localized approaches.
• Conversation with Opponents: Attempts to "convert" right-leaning voters are difficult but have value, if not always immediate.
• Show recommendation: Palestinian writer Rula Jebreal as a potential future guest.

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Final Thoughts

David Fenton emphasizes that political language and authenticity decide elections alongside organizing and policy. The left should reframe issues around economic fairness, morality, and everyday struggles, avoid jargon, and stay relentlessly real and connective. The episode highlights skepticism toward establishment, the enduring toxicity of the word "socialism," and the need for bold, values-driven political communication.

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Transcript

[Tim Fullerton]

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[David Fenton]

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[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required compatibility and availability. Veris18 Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms at Mintmobile. Hey everybody, welcome back to the Find out podcast. Eventually you'll have the full crew here. Rich is late per usual. We have Zach and Luke and we have a very, very exciting guest that I think you all are going to enjoy today. And even if you don't know his name, you definitely know some of the work that he has done over his illustrious career, which is the first time I think I've used illustrious on this show. We have David Fenton with us who is a long time, I think you referred to yourself when we met as a progressive, provocative agitator. Agitator.

[David Fenton]

Agitator. Well, I'm a couture too.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Okay, well, both of those things. So one started Fenton Communications, which is a very well known and very big progressive agency and has also done things like work with John and Yoko, Bruce Springsteen on the no Nukes concert, the no fracking stuff with Yoko, and in Sean ono, Lennon in 2013. And so ladies, and he also has a book that I have right here called the Activist Media Handbook, which has a lot of great information on how to talk about progressive issues and how to make sure that progressives win. So, David Fenton, welcome to the Find out podcast.

[David Fenton]

You're great to be here. What are we going to find out?

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Oh, we're going to find out. Well, we're going to pepper you with questions. Actually, one of the things I want to talk to you about, and I apologize that we didn't bring it up, but I didn't know it was going to happen. Was last night in New York in particular, three Democratic socialists ousted, while two ousted incumbents and one took an open seat that was held by what I would argue is probably more of a mainstream candidate. Brad Lander beat Dan Goldman in New York 10, my old district. There were a couple other races as well. I just want to get your initial reactions to what we saw last night, because we're hearing people saying this is anti Semitism coming out, or this is like socialism and it's going to destroy the country. I assume you have a different perspective.

[David Fenton]

I think it's terrific. Hooray. That the establishment's getting overthrown. It's a failure. It hasn't worked. The sclerotic parts of the Democratic Party, which isn't very democratic, I'm afraid, out of touch with the people. It's not helping us. So bravo to Zorin and AOC and DSA for running candidates that have authentic public appeal. I think we're going to see a lot more of this. And by the way, as a student of language, I'm amazed that they're doing so well while calling themselves socialists.

[Doug]

Right.

[David Fenton]

I mean, it's probably too late, but, you know, I wish they'd changed their name because, you know, basic framing, right?

[Tim Fullerton]

Yep.

[David Fenton]

The brain has circuitry. And when you say the word socialist, to most people, it's a negative. So, like, a lot of us think that if Bernie hadn't called himself a socialist, he would have won. But we need democratic socialism. I'm just not sure we should call it that.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

What would you call it? Do you have a thought?

[David Fenton]

Well, I like the term economic democracy, that there should be checks and balances on all kinds of power, not only on political power. We have to have checks and balances on excessive corporate power or we're going to have increasing feudalism. That's the direction we're heading is a revival of feudalism. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis said very pithily, once you can have a democracy or you can have great concentrations of wealth, but you can't have both.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

Right.

[David Fenton]

And we're seeing that play out in real time, not for the first time. So, you know, history is this pendulum of excessive concentrations of wealth followed by rebellion that redistribute it and then excessive concentrations of wealth. So I think the rebellion is starting. Thank goodness.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

So what does that. What does that look like?

[Doug]

Right?

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Because I think a lot of people are saying this is a reaction to Trump, and a lot of people are saying this is a reaction to Democrats who take billionaire money. And, you know, it's hard to sometimes try to find a one answer fits all because these districts are all different. What do you think is actually happening here? Because I mean Congressman Espiat lost, who was a five term incumbent. I never really had any challenges before. He lost by four points. Dan Goldman lost by 30 points. Like a three term or two term Congressman in a safe blue district. So is this Trump? Is this economic populism or economic democracy? What, what, what do you think's going on here?

[David Fenton]

Well, it's more than one thing. People are fed up with the corruption at the high levels of the Democratic Party, APAC corruption, other kinds of corporate corruption and the self perpetuation of Democratic elites who have abandoned the needs of average and working people for decades. By and large, people are fed up that the Democratic Party isn't rising to oppose Trump and fascism in effective ways. I mean, Chuck Schumer writes him a letter, so I think it's all of that, but it's also that people are struggling. Prices are incredibly high. You know, the, the, the, the ever increasing profit margins of the biggest concentrated monopoly companies are fleecing people and they know it, so they're demanding action. Now of course, this corruption in the Democratic Party extends to all kinds of issues, you know, including the climate issue, which is what I tend to focus on. I call it the survival issue. And the Democrats are really failing us on that issue, which is really the uber issue. And it's the uber economic issue because at the rate we're going, the climate is going to destroy our economy. It's going to raise the price of food, it's going to collapse insurance markets and then mortgage markets because if you can't get insurance, you can't get mortgages. And all this refugee crisis that climate change is causing is also economically disruptive. And where are they? I'll tell you where they are. They're telling people not to talk about it.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Right? Why, why, why do you think that is? Because like there, there are several issues that are going on right now that are hot button issues that seem to make a good connection to climate. Like the data center issue with AI where you know, you see younger people. Luke could speak to this better than I can, but like people are very, very angry about AI. It's I think both from an economic issue but also an environmental issue. So do you see a path here where Democrats could actually have a winning issue here if they made those connections?

[David Fenton]

I think it's always been a winning issue. You know, look at the way Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of Rhode island talks about this, that Trump is raising your cost of energy, your electric bill, your gas bill, to reward his corrupt fossil fuel donors. That is what is happening. He is raising your prices and transferring it to the fossil fuel companies, which were already among the richest companies on earth. So, of course we should talk about this. And I also think that there's an incredible elitism and contempt for everyday people in the notion that we cannot simply explain how the burning of fossil fuels is endangering our way of life and our economy. And we have in front of us clean technology that's cheaper and faster and better. Of course we can explain this to people. Of course, there's a related problem here, which is that both the Democrats and, I'm afraid, the environmental NGOs don't talk about this issue in effective ways. You know, people don't know what carbon is. What the hell is net zero anyway? I don't even know. You know, I don't know. It's ridiculous. But we know how to talk about this in a way that people get. For example, you say we have put a blanket of pollution around the earth. And what do blankets do? They trap heat. It's like when you were a kid and your father or mother put an extra blanket on you while you were sleeping and you woke up sweating. That's what we're doing to the Earth. And people go, oh, pollution bad. I don't like that. Overheating bad. I don't like that. So, of course we can explain this to people. And we also have an incredible moral issue. And all successful social movements are moral movements in the end, which is a small group of very, incredibly greedy, mostly men at the oil, coal and gas companies are determined to make every last drop of profit off every last drop of fossil fuels while knowing, they have known for 50 years that this was going to cause extreme weather and destroy the economy and make the earth unlivable. And they don't care. So basically, it's them against your property, your prosperity, your health and your children. Don't tell me we can't explain that to people. Of course we can.

[Tim Fullerton]

Sure. I have a question about that, too. Because, like, for me, the biggest barrier seems to always be that, like, we sort of live in a catastrophe culture where until it's like a personal catastrophe, people are like, I don't care. Doesn't really matter. So, like, how do we overcome the lack of. I mean, if you're in an economic or in a environmental disaster because of climate change, it's easy to talk to you. But people who aren't how do we communicate to them and make them understand the urgency without them feeling the urgency in their everyday life? That's, to me, the biggest hurdle to jump.

[David Fenton]

Well, look at the heat wave happening in Europe right now. Look at the wildfires, you know, look at the stronger hurricanes. It's happening now. But the problem is we don't talk about it and the media doesn't talk about it. That's, you know, the television media, which is still very powerful. You know, I mean, the biggest followings on TikTok are still the networks, for example, they don't talk about this. You know, you could have the worst hurricanes and wildfires and droughts and ever. And they won't say this comes from the burning of fossil fuels and we need to transition off them as soon as possible. So people don't know and this makes it a low saliency issue because they don't hear about it. You know, the Yale research shows that only 12% of Americans see or hear anything about global warming on social media. And most of what they see comes from the bad guys. Because our community is what we call climate hushing, not talking about it. It's a new form of climate denial, in effect. And we don't put resources into communicating this to the public. We shy away from it. So guess what happens? It becomes a low saliency, low importance, you know, not important voting issue for most people. I think that's our fault.

[Tim Fullerton]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Well, let me.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

I mean, I've always found one of the, the bigger problems with it is that a lot of people message it as saving the environment. People don't give a. About saving the environment. And it's not really like an accurate way of describing it. You're saving yourself.

[Tim Fullerton]

Yeah.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

Because it's also saving the earth message. The earth is going to be fine.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Right.

[David Fenton]

That's true. The planet will be fine. I always tell people, you know, talk about people and what people care about and what they love and what they cherish and treasure. Don't talk about the environment. That's an abstraction. The minute you say that word to most people.

[Tim Fullerton]

Yeah.

[David Fenton]

What they hear is you're not talking about me.

[Tim Fullerton]

Right, exactly.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Let's, let's go into a situation, an example that you were part of that actually did work, which is the, the fracking ban campaign that you, you worked on with. I can't even believe I'm saying these people's names, but Yoko, Yoko and Sean Ono, Lennon, Susan Sarandon and other folks in New York state. Yeah.

[David Fenton]

Paul McCartney was involved too.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

Oh, wow.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Oh, who's that?

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

Oh,

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Sir Paul McCartney. Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna try to get him on next. Maybe you can help us with that. Yeah, but tell us a little bit about that, because you got fracking banned in New York State. What did. And you were trying to convince a governor who is a. Is a Democrat, but a kind of. And very moderate, let's say, lay it on Mafioso Democrat.

[Tim Fullerton]

Yeah, that's a good way to put it.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

How'd you do that?

[David Fenton]

Well, I didn't do it, but what happened is there was a very strong grassroots movement to try to stop fracking in New York State. And then Yoko and Sean organized a group called Artists Against Fracking. And the synthesis of the grassroots and the celebrities is what did it. It created enormous pressure on Governor Cuomo, and he eventually did the right thing and banned fracking in New York. I think it's still one of only two states that have done this. We made the issue about fracking about water, about the quality and safety of your water, because while the gas companies lie about this all the time, a huge percentage of the fracking wells leak and put poison chemicals in your water. Remember Josh Fox's movie Gasland, where people could light their tap water on fire? Well, that's real. So we started doing press junkets where Yoko and Sean and Susan, surrounded, would charter a bus, and we would take reporters to nearby Dimmock, Pennsylvania, where they could go into people's houses next to fracking sites and see people light their tap water on fire.

[Doug]

Right.

[David Fenton]

You know, my favorite moment of that campaign was Cuomo kept refusing to meet with Yoko Ono. And we just couldn't believe it. He wouldn't even meet with her. So we made a television ad, and it's Yoko looking in the camera saying, governor Cuomo, you haven't been able to meet with me to talk about fracking, so I'm going to show you what it looks like here on tv.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Oh, I bet he didn't like that.

[David Fenton]

And we use John Leonard's song Just Give Me Some Truth as the vocal. And she comes back on and says, nice to meet you, Governor. So he called her, you know, 10 minutes later and finally met with her. But he was so pissed by the way, he blacklisted me and my firm from ever working for any New York state agency again because we checkmated him. And he was pissed.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

He. Look, I. I told you before, and I. I did work for him for a little while before all the really gross stuff came out. And he is somebody that doesn't move unless pressured. Like, it was the same with the legalization of marijuana. It was the same with marriage equality. None of these things were going to happen without pressure. Which is why it's so important, I think, for you to tell your story, because you did. You guys, I'm using the royal. You and I actually have a photo from the book where things come flying out, but that bottle right there is filthy water.

[Tim Fullerton]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

You know, and then also in the book, you talk about how in one of the, one of the homes, the people had to leave the windows open when they took showers because they were worried that the methane would explode. That was coming out of the shower head.

[David Fenton]

That was by order of the Pennsylvania Board of Health. There were labels on the showers saying you must open the window when you take a shower in here. And of course, the lying gas companies. Oh, well, that's naturally occurring methane in the water.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

No, just. No.

[Tim Fullerton]

I mean, not what my water looks like. My God.

[David Fenton]

Yeah, but, you know, we're in danger. Kathy Hochul, the governor in New York, is talking about rescinding the fracking ban. So, you know, really, the struggle never ends. Never.

[Tim Fullerton]

Why?

[David Fenton]

Well, because of the economic interests involved, of course.

[Tim Fullerton]

Yeah, of course.

[David Fenton]

You know, because we have a, a democracy that's corrupted by big money. And, and, and it doesn't have to be. And I'm sure, I'm really quite sure that what you're seeing in these election results is the beginning of an uprising where we will eventually restrict all this big money in politics or we'll have no democracy.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

And we're live on match day as

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Doug reaches for a Buffalo wing.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

He's got it. Oh, and he's gone for a can of Pepsi, too. What a finish.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

There's no doubt about it.

[David Fenton]

It just tastes better.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Match days deserve Pepsi. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think that, you know, it's, it's always going to start in the more quote, unquote progressive places, and then it spreads. Right. But like we've also seen. I'm curious to get your. Take it again. I'm sorry. This was not something that I, I prepped you for.

[David Fenton]

That's all right.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

There, there's the guy in Nebraska, Dan Osborne, who is not a Democrat, he's not a Republican, and he is an independent. Do, do you think that those types. And he, he did very well. He ran two years ago, he lost by a couple percentage points, and he's doing it again in a much friendlier climate. Do you think those are those types of. Because he has Some progressive issues on his side, like unions and things like that. Do you think that that's an entry into the red states to start to win back some of those places or. Or those lost causes?

[David Fenton]

Well, I don't know about him, but look at James Tallarico in Texas.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Yep.

[David Fenton]

And he's surging and doing incredibly well. And look how he talks about our issues. He says, well, the issue in America isn't between left and right, it's between top and bottom right. And these billionaires are using their algorithms to divide us, and we must stop them. We can't let them. And of course, he's doing this using biblical references and moral structures of language, and he's doing fantastically. So there's no reason that we can't get swing voters back on our side. You know, if you follow the work of the great linguist George Lakoff. You familiar with Lakoff? L A K O F F. He wrote a really important.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Oh, he's on your. He. He wrote your intro.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

Right.

[David Fenton]

For people interested in the language of politics, his book don't think of an Elephant is essential. Now try that. Don't think of an elephant. That's framing. So.

[Tim Fullerton]

Right.

[David Fenton]

So, Lakoff, I'll explain this briefly. So he uses family metaphors to explain politics. The right is the strict father morality. Progressives are nurturing parents. And in between, there are people he calls the bi conceptuals. They have both moral world votes. Strict father right, nurturing parent, left. And the way you win in elections is to activate the progressive side of the biconceptual mental structure. And that's what Talarico is doing by talking about morality and religion. So if. If he wasn't doing that, then he would allow the other side to activate the strict father, which is fear and hatred. And watch out for these immigrants. Whereas Talarico is activating love your neighbor. So I. I have high hopes for him. He's amazing.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Yeah. I mean, he's been incredible. And I think that, like all of the polling, which, I mean, who knows at this point.

[Tim Fullerton]

Right.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

How accurate any of that is, but it does show. I mean, also, it doesn't hurt that Republicans chose pretty much the most vile human being on earth to run against him, which.

[David Fenton]

Yeah, we call him pedophile protector Paxton.

[Tim Fullerton]

Nice.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

There we go. Why isn't everyone.

[Doug]

What's interesting is that Trump loves them so much.

[David Fenton]

Then full circle, it's a big club protector. Paxton.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Oh, there's so many. Right. But it's interesting that you say that because, you know, I've seen Democrats Be reluctant, especially with all this Epstein stuff, to talk about coddling pedophiles. Some are doing it. Right. But it's interesting that you see Talarico because there's a. There's this horrible case in Texas where there was a child rapist who he. He. His office basically made a plea deal and said he only deserved 30 days in jail. And Talarico jumped right on it, which I think was really smart. But Democrats haven't really. Like, again, there's exceptions, but, like, for the most part, they're not leaning into that. I assume you think that's a mistake.

[David Fenton]

Yes, of course it's a mistake.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

Yeah.

[David Fenton]

You know, Democrats have to understand something. You have to be authentic. You can't overthink what you say and do. You have to be yourself. Because the audience, the voters can smell it. You know, those of us who know Hillary Clinton and Al Gore, for example, know them as warm, gracious, authentic, amazing people.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Right.

[David Fenton]

And yet when the camera goes on them during the presidential. They're frozen and they're overthinking. They're listening to a million pollsters, and they're not themselves. And the audience can smell it. You know, I thought about inviting Talarico on my new podcast, the Fenton Forecast, and I decided I wouldn't do it because I don't want to hurt him. If he associates with me, Paxton might make it an issue.

[Tim Fullerton]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

But I just. I just think like it. I think you're right. The authenticity thing, it's sort of also getting overlooked in these three races from last night in New York City because they're all like, everyone wants to make this to be about APAC and anti Semitism. But first of all, one of the guys who won is also Jewish, Brad Lander, and was a guy who literally represented that, most of that district in the City Council for a decade. And so people knew him and I. I lived in his district, and he's a great guy.

[David Fenton]

Great. I know Brad. He's terrific.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Oh, he's great.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

He's great.

[David Fenton]

This anti Semitism thing is being weaponized. You know, I'm Jewish. I helped start J Street, which is the group that is pro Israel but pro Palestinian state. We don't believe Israel's security is met by a permanent occupation of another people. You know, read a little history. Permanent occupation means permanent insecurity. It's ridiculous. So the fact that Jewish voters in New York are rejecting this reflexive, pro Netanyahu, pro occupation policies is very healthy. It's terrific, right?

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Yeah. I mean, that's where I get confused. Obviously, I live here. I am not Jewish, my wife is half Jewish. But like, that's as close as we get on our, in our side. But that district is very heavily a Jewish district. And it is, it is not. Like, this is not a rejection of, of Judaism. Like, this is a rejection of, of the, of, of the Bibi Netanyahu government and their use of AIPAC to basically influence elections. And that is the, is the issue. And I'm curious and I want to hear you, because this is really important. Right now in the Democratic Party, a lot of, I'm seeing a lot of people saying, if you are anti aipac, you, you are anti Semitic.

[David Fenton]

Nonsense.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Please dive into that a little.

[David Fenton]

You know, look, you know, real Jewish morality does not include killing 50,000 children. And, and they're doing it again in Lebanon now, and they're lying about it. There isn't an Hezbollah fighter in every apartment in Lebanon. It's nonsense. It's, you know, they are there. This is a scorched earth territorial expansion on the part of a very militaristic government. And none of it could happen without U.S. support. And it has to stop. And you cannot tell young people who see reality on their phones, you know, when you look at a satellite image of Gaza and every building is down again, there was not a Hamas fighter in every building at every moment in Gaza. So this does meet the technical definition of genocide. I, I used to really hesitate to use that word and the word apartheid for Israel. I've been to Israel. But, you know, my Jewish friends in the human rights community have all explained to me that yes, it meets the technical definition of genocide, especially the purposeful starvation, and it meets the tactical definition of apartheid. You go to Israel, there are separate roads and separate everything for Palestinians and Jews. So, you know, this has got to be rejected if you support Israel. Many former Mossad and military people in Israel agree that the policies of this super right wing government in Israel are undermining Israeli security. So that is a legitimate position. And how is that anti Semitic?

[Doug]

Yeah, I think something that really just stuns me is that for so many on the left, it seems to be this foreign concept that somebody would use religion as cover to shepherd in a brutal, you know, unethical, inhumane, political angle or military angle. We're watching the Republicans do it with Christianity in the United States right now. Sure. Netanyahu has done the exact same thing by saying anyone who disagrees with me is an anti Semite when he is not a good example of what Judaism is And what a Jewish person can do in this world, yet they.

[David Fenton]

He's a murderer. Now, look, I mean, Hamas is evil. Hamas should be prosecuted and brought to account. There's no question about it. You know, to be against Netanyahu is not to be pro Hamas. But the fundamental issue is there is the occupation and the notion that you're going to permanently occupy another people and their land is ahistorical poppycock and amoral. It's not going to work. And eventually they're going to have to come to terms with it, unless they want to kill them all.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

I mean, I think Bibi wants to. It seems like obviously he just wants a parking lot. I mean, he's gotten a lot of it in Gaza and now he's got his sights turned on Lebanon. Right. This whole deal, this deal, this really wonderful deal that Trump put together, that is like quite possibly the shittiest deal in the history of the universe compared to where we were before. But, like, it kind of seems like Netanyahu is kind of actually giving Trump the middle finger. And it's like, I'm gonna, I want to go wipe out everybody in Lebanon too. And so what? Like, one of the things, as a, as a Jewish person, I'm always very nervous about getting into that conversation because I don't want to come across as anti Semitic. But everything you said just now is what I would say, right? Like, this is not about Judaism. This is about a government that has made an active decision that they want to wipe out a population.

[David Fenton]

Wipe out. But they certainly want to. They're willing to go into amoral, illegal, massive overkill for how they perceive their security. And we have to reject it so that the voters, the Jewish voters in New York are increasingly rejecting. This is one of the healthiest things happening. And, you know, the, the, one of the big problems we have in Israel, by the way, is that Sheldon and Miriam Adelson bought the biggest newspaper in Israel. And it's a free newspaper, it's broadly circulated, and they turned it into racist anti Arab propaganda. And it had a huge impact in turning Israeli public opinion really into a super anti Arab majority now. And again, I'm sympathetic. There have been attacks on Israel that are abhorrent, but you have to keep these things in perspective. So the notion, the viewpoint that real security for Israel, which is what I want and I think most people want, will not come from occupation. That point of view the Israeli public almost never hears anymore. Right.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Well, and I want to ask. I keep going through these, these your book, because all These like big names that you worked with. But this is another one which I don't think I need to say who that is, other than you on one side and Nelson Mandela on the other. And you worked on ending apartheid in South Africa in the 1980s. Are there lessons from that fight that we could take for what is happening now in Gaza?

[David Fenton]

Well, you know, Mandela was always against the Israeli occupation. He was very vocal about it. And you know, he saw it as a liberation struggle. But he was never anti Israel. I mean, Mandela was, you know, like the Pope. He was a saint. He was one of the most deeply moral people, you know of, of modern history. And it was the great honor of my working life to volunteer to help him. I started working for the, the African National Congress of South Africa in the 1980s actually under the Reagan administration when they branded Mandela and the ANC as the communist terrorist organization. You know, Mandela was the only saint I have ever met. He had no anger. After 27 years of imprisonment, he had transcended it. You know, he was the most remarkable human being. And to show you the difference in the time. So we organized this movement that succeeded in getting Congress to pass sanctions against South Africa. American companies were prohibited by law from dealing with them. And that great racist, Ronald Reagan vetoed the legislation. And think about this. We overrode his veto. Imagine that happening. Oh, wow, that's right.

[Doug]

Forget it.

[David Fenton]

We got both houses of Congress to override his veto and sanctions became the law of the land. And without that, Mandela would probably have died in prison. So, yeah, it was an incredible struggle. And again, it was a moral struggle. And all successful struggles and social movements seize and hold the moral high ground. And this is what the Democrats need to do against oligarchy, the Tech Bros. Fascism, the new feudalism, extreme income inequality, and the destruction of a livable planet. These are the moral issues. Health care, moral issue. So talk about it, be real and you'll win.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Well, David, we got one more question. We're only going to do 30 minutes. We blew right through it. Because this has been such a fascinating conversation, I'm going to put a hypothetical to you. I don't know if you're going to be able to answer it. I didn't talk to anybody about this. If you could choose one of these three people to have dinner with again and you've met them all, which one are you picking? We're putting Nelson Mandela in there. John Lennon, who you also knew, and Bruce Springsteen, who you worked on the no Nukes campaign. Which one of those guys do you want to have. Would you. Would you want to see one more time?

[David Fenton]

And I love Bruce. And, you know, Lennon was a great artist and public figure, but Nelson Mandela was a saint.

[Doug]

So.

[David Fenton]

Yeah, you know, he sets the bar pretty high. You know, tough, quick story. So I was in Johannesburg for the 1994 presidential election when Mandela was elected. So one day he took me to a meeting he had with his former jailers. Mandela was building a house in Johannesburg, and he wanted to be an exact replica of the house that he lived in on the grounds of Pollsmoor Prison in the latter years of his imprisonment. So he took his architect and he met with his former jailers. And I'm watching these guys joke and back slap and have a great time, and I'm like, could this be real? That's how transcendent he was.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Yeah, I don't. I don't think I'd be able to do that after.

[David Fenton]

Was it 27 years machine gunning people, you know? Exactly.

[Doug]

There's a. There's a real peace in. In letting things go. It's. It's impossible sometimes, but. Oh, my God.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Oh, I can't relate. I have no idea.

[Doug]

Carrying around grudges and resentment and hate is incredibly heavy. It's. It's. It's very difficult, but, like, it's. Doesn't mean it's not warranted. But there are better people.

[David Fenton]

Can I suggest a guest for you guys?

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Sure.

[David Fenton]

The Israel Palestine issue. One of the more interesting guests I had on my podcast, the Phantom Forecast, is a great Palestinian writer and academic and journalist who lives in New York. Her name is Rula Jebriel. Rula Jebriel.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

I think I know that.

[David Fenton]

Incredibly brilliant and articulate and, you know, she's anti Hamas and she's anti the occupation, and she's worth following Ruler Jibril. I would really. She would blow your audience's mind. She's brilliant and she brings the moral case very clearly.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Well, we will. We will definitely look into that. That's our first on air recommendation for. For. We'll have to check that out. David Fenton. Thank you very much, everybody. Go follow the Fenton forecast. I think one of the episodes I did listen to, what episode is super fascinating. You had Billie Eilish's mom on.

[David Fenton]

Right, Right.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Maggie Baird is an. Is a activist and has been for a very long. Yeah. And it helps to understand how. Billy, you know, when you. She's obviously very progressive. You hear her and it's obviously very clear that it comes at least from her, from her mother. So go check that Out.

[Tim Fullerton]

Yeah.

[David Fenton]

And they were schooled.

[Tim Fullerton]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Oh, wow. Okay. That's a whole different thing.

[David Fenton]

Billy and her songwriting brother Phineas, both homeschooled, right? Yeah. Maggie runs a nonprofit called Support and Feed that feeds plant based food to people in food deserts and in food distress situations. You know, she's, she's remarkable.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Wow. Go check out that. Also pick up the book, the Activist Media handbook, Lessons from 50 Years as a Progressive Agitator Slash provoc. Provoce. So I had to throw that in there. Anyways, David, thank you very much.

[David Fenton]

Nice to see you all.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

For everybody else, we'll be right back. And we're back. I was just telling Rich to stop typing. David's great. David's great. I'm glad that we could have him on the show because there's such like, he, like such a wealth of knowledge and all these like crazy people that he worked with. Like when he told me a couple weeks ago, we had lunch and he was like, oh yeah, I knew John Lennon. I'm like, what? Oh yeah, Nelson Mandela. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, huh? Like, it's just crazy. And it's, it's interesting to see the, some of the sum of the parallels between previous fights and now. But it was, I think, a lot of stuff to learn from him for sure.

[Doug]

The thing that I keep thinking about, I mean, you know, he's such a savvy communications professional. You know, we've talked about the Democrats messaging problem, but like how much of, of this have we done to ourselves? Because we are. I, I know Democratic politicians, especially the ones who are not really passionate with a ton of conviction, they're trying to not say the wrong thing, you know, for, for just within Democrats. And then Republicans triple down on it and then the moderate Democrats are trying to meet Republicans halfway and so they're saying the most tepid shit possible. And so even like thinking about what he said about Al Gore and Hillary Clinton, even the really high quality people, really principled, smart policy writers, the second the camera turns on, it's like they're trying to thread the needle between being super far left without saying anything, super far left without pissing off Republicans and donors, trying to sound good as a, as a progressive politician, but without saying anything of substance, it's like a perfect cocktail of how to be inauthentic and we're just obeying, like they're just doing it anyway, even though they're, we're finding out in these cycles over the past year and a half that when you don't do that. And you're a little bit messy even all the way. As far as Graham Platner, you have some controversies. People still vote for you. They still support you as long as they really believe that that's the version of you that is the real version.

[Tim Fullerton]

Exactly.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

Right.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Yeah. I, I think that, I think that Democratic voters are tired of the same people saying the same things over and over again and nothing changing.

[Tim Fullerton]

Right.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

And I think that this is. You're seeing that. I mean, you know, I mean, obviously every race is different and it, there's, there's exceptions and like I said. But the Lander thing is. Shouldn't really surprise people because he's represented that district and everybody loves him anyways. So it's like not. But the other ones, it's like, yeah, like, if you have been sitting on your ass or not communicating what you're doing to fight back against the Trump administration, voters could throw you out.

[Tim Fullerton]

Yep.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Like, I mean, I don't know a lot about sbi, and I don't want to get into that too much because I just don't know a lot about it. I'd hear him fight and screaming, yelling, being, you know, going to protests, like, trying, you know, Brad Lander. Actually, this is another thing. Brad Lander went to an ICE detention facility and got arrested by trying to protect somebody.

[Tim Fullerton]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

That they were yanking in there. Voters see that and they go, I want that. I want somebody who's going to fight because I'm terrified. Also, Democrats have told me that Donald Trump is an existential crisis. So I want representatives who act like we're in an existential crisis. Those ones don't. And that's the reality. They're good policy people. Dan Goldman is a fantastic, you know, interrogator in hearings, but, like, he's kind of stiff and, and the APEC thing is real. And they were like, well, I've got this guy over here who's willing to put his body in between an immigrant and ice. Which one do you think I'm going to pick?

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

Time and a place. That's all it is, right?

[Tim Fullerton]

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

I mean, and I think that doesn't mean that the DSA is taking over the, like, the Democratic Party. Like, all these stupid takes have been this morning. It's New York City, guys. We've always had leaders who are slightly more conservative than the people who live here. And you are now seeing a course correction because of that. Yeah. And, and so, like, if this isn't like, oh, in Iowa, you Need to run a Memdani, you'd be an idiot.

[Tim Fullerton]

It'd be insane. I mean, that's, that's the thing I think people need to take away from this is like, yes, there were victories outside of New York City that also were DSA winners. But like, remember who's voting? It's a bunch of Democrats motivated to vote. Right? That's a totally different thing than everybody can vote. Then you have a very different, same reason that Biden ended up. You know, the democratic establishment in 2020 was like, we need to stop Bernie Sanders because, like, yeah, he's playing great in the primary, but this dude's going to fucking lose if you throw him out wide. And it's the same shit here where it's like, they'll win in their little segments where they're doing fine, but like, if you play a 28 card of like, just go all in on DSA, see ya. You lose. I mean, it's, it's different things.

[Doug]

It reminds me though of Obamacare where people were like, I hate Obamacare, but I like the Affordable Care act. And, or they would say stupid or, or they would say, I hate Obamacare because it's socialism. But then when you ask them about all of the individual components of Obamacare, they liked every single thing that was in it.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

I think, take, take the government's hands off my Medicare.

[Doug]

Well, and that's, yeah, that's where I was gonna go with that too, is like, well, no, no, I mean, you're right there. Socialism is like this dirty word because Democrats have not defended it and Republicans have spent 40, 50 years attacking it. But when you actually ask people, do you like Social Security? That's socialism. Do you like FDIC and NCUA protections on your bank accounts? That's socialism. Do you like Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, unemployment insurance? Just because we pay for some, some of the bills, just because it's payroll taxes, like, that's all. It's still socialism. Like, you can just squarely call all of those things socialist. And if you stripped all of those things away, the people who get hit the hardest are 80% Republican, 65 plus senior citizens who need the most help and support from the government.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Well, I would actually argue that, like, this is less. I think this is less. I mean, you tell me what you guys think, but I think this is, this is less than a DSA thing, that it is a authenticity thing, that they want candidates who seem to believe what the words are. They're coming out of their mouth, they're not listening. To talking points. Barack Obama wasn't a DSA guy. And like, look at the love and support he got because he was authentic and he was very clearly against the Iraq war. But he wasn't a, he wasn't a dsa. I mean, they tried to project him as this like, you know, Muslim sleeper cell murderer guy or whatever. But like, I think if you are, you can be authentically moderate as long as you are projecting, depending on the districts. Like, I think it's more about that than just being like, I'm a DSA person. Those people just happen to.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

Yeah, I mean, if somebody comes, I'm a big DSA person. And then they don't actually fucking push any of this. Like, it's not like they're going to get elected.

[Doug]

Right.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

People are still just as weary of another fucking Fetterman as they were two months ago.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Oh, we hear that all the time.

[Doug]

Right.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

About especially like Platner.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

There's a new.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Which even that just like doesn't, people are saying that, that don't understand the two situations. But like, yeah, if, if Graham Platner ends up having a stroke, maybe he turns conservative. But like I, you could say that about literally anybody. So you know, I, I, that's, yeah. Anyways. But you know, it's interesting to hear David say though he, we didn't dig into it.

[Doug]

We should have.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

But like Yuri said, if Bernie Sanders was just a Democrat, he might have won that primary. But because he was outside of the party and there was so much socialism attached.

[Tim Fullerton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Because when you listen to what he actually wants to do, like is much of that outside of the Democratic mainstream at this point? Yeah, like what?

[Doug]

I think the problem with Bernie was not his policies, it's that he, he was very stubborn and he put next to no effort into winning black and Hispanic voters across the South.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

I don't disagree with that.

[Doug]

He could have won them over if he had just gone and spoken to them. But he gave, he gave, he gave the whole thing away.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Well, he kept talking about working class people, but like in the Democratic side, most of the working class people are black and Hispanic. So when you just don't like. I agree with that. I just meant like policy wise.

[Tim Fullerton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, look, I think it's not, I think if you really dig into the Democratic party, you find a pretty strong 50, 50 split on even main things like universal healthcare. I think like there's a, there's a lot of people who want it, but there's a lot of people who are Like, I just like, think like me where I'm like, I like it, but how are you gonna do it? And I think that's where Bernie Sanders

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

lost people like me last night. I was doing the that live and I. Everybody here was busy, so I was like, all right, I guess I'll see if there's any MAGA dumb that want to come up and talk to me. And this guy comes up and he starts. I asked him, so you voted for Trump? He says, yeah, and my wife voted for Harris. And I was like, that's crazy. I can't. Don't understand how you guys live together.

[Tim Fullerton]

Yeah.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

And then I was like, what does she think of you voting for Trump? And he's like, it's like, it's her least favorite thing about me. And I was like, okay. I said, so what about it? He goes, well, I just, you know, I don't really like the guy, but I just can't vote for a Democrat. And, and, you know, at least he has traditional values and he helped the border. And so then we had went on this whole rational value how exactly he had us. And also the traditional values that he upholds are not. He doesn't uphold them at all.

[Tim Fullerton]

At all.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

Then we, he, we. He started. He immediately pivoted to like, Mamdani and how Mamdani's ruining New York. And I said, give me one example of something bad he's done, right?

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Silence.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

He goes, he goes. I said, that's what I thought. I said, well, so that's where he went. He was like, that's that his kind of far left stuff is dangerous for the country. I said, why? Because it helps people. I said, go ask it. Go ask a New Yorker if the having free child care for 0 to 2 year olds is helpful. Ask them that. And then he was like, well, oh, go ahead, sorry. And then I was like, you know that if we didn't do this Iran war, we could pay for that for the entire country for zero to four. You get that, right? And he was like. And then I was like, yeah, so like, why don't we just take an example? And then I was like, and, you know, universal health care, we could do that kind of thing if we didn't keep electing shit for brains that help billionaires. He's like, well, yeah, but I think everybody in this country would like universal health care. I said, yeah, I know they would, of course.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

So what did he.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

So I ended so close. I know this is the problem with the debate thing that I just like, I'VE done it a couple times. And every time I'm like, I just want to.

[Doug]

I just.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

I just want to die. Because, like, this is ridiculous. Because he ends the thing with. And then he was like, talking about his son and his 14 year old son who, like, really likes Mamdani. I said, yeah, because he's young and Mamdani is helping people like him directly. I said, if you want to, like, like, just talk to your son about why he likes him, you might be surprised.

[Tim Fullerton]

Yeah.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

But the conversation ends with. I said, man, I hope that I've changed your mind a little bit. I hope that maybe you'd consider voting for a Democrat. He goes, nope. And I was like, all right, I'm not doing this again.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Well, look, like them are in a bubble, right? I mean, I think it's.

[David Fenton]

It.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

They just.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

But he wasn't even like. I mean, I guess it was probably there in the background, if I had to bet. But he wasn't one of those where it comes up and he's like, oh, I hate black people. Because the next person that came up was like, I like Trump because he thinks gay people are mentally ill. And

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

I was like, first of all, yourself.

[Doug]

I'm not even convinced he thinks that.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Yeah, I don't think he does.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

No, I don't think so either. But, like, that's somebody that, that's an example of somebody who's like, fucked.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

There's no point in time. The first guy.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

The first guy was just critically dumb and like, misinformed, but, like, unwilling to examine exactly how wrong he was.

[Doug]

Well, but remember, I mean, like, so it took me about two years to deconstruct religion. And there was a lot of back and forth. There was like. There were nights where I, like, would pray. Like, I'm so sorry. I questioned God and everything. Like, I swore I was going to hell. And then like, two days later I'd be like, no, there's definitely nothing there. And then like two nights later I'd be like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. And I'd be praying. This. This dude might say a lot. He would say a lot of things. He's not going to admit he's wrong on the spot, but I guarantee you're. You're living in his head rent free right now. I bet he fell asleep and he was like, well, that little shithead with the nice feet made some really good points.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

He was nice. That was the thing. Everybody in the chat was like, clowning me because I wasn't being mean. It's Like, I'm not going to be mean to somebody who's just stupid.

[Doug]

Match the energy.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Yeah, yeah, I, I am.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

I am polite until they're not polite and then, then all holds are off. Are. Are good to go.

[Tim Fullerton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

I. But also there's a whole bunch of people who saw that too. Right. That they maybe didn't jump in. Because I think there's probably like, the, the aren't going to jump up to you. Right. What's that?

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

And my request filled immediately. Oh, like, as soon as I said, as soon as I brought one guy up and started talking to him, There was like 50 people requested.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Yeah.

[Doug]

Because if they're, if they're unpacking it and they're a little unsure of themselves, like, it. You have to be a certain kind of person to even go and just ask a question that you might be wrong about or like that you. Where you might lose the debate. But yeah, I totally agree. I mean, There are probably 50 or 100 people who. They're not quite sure. You know, they're either on the left, but they don't have their beliefs, like, fully fleshed out and validated, or there might be in the middle somewhere and they're just kind of watching for entertainment. So there is influence. Even if you don't think the Iraq

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

war was justified and we needed to do everything, we did.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

And I was like, iraq or Iran?

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

Iraq.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

He said the Iraq war was justified

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

and that he fought there.

[Tim Fullerton]

That's a hot take.

[Doug]

Oh, I mean, he's.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Just. Because he was there.

[Doug]

Yeah, he's just, he just doesn't want to. It's a sunk cost fallacy.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Well, yeah, I mean, he doesn't. I mean, I would think that, you know, you wouldn't want to be like, I went over there and watched a bunch of people die for nothing. Right. Which exactly is kind of true.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

And.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

But like, I, I understand the reluctance there, but yeah, I mean, like, their main reason for going was showed to be a lie. So maybe we also do. Should someone tell them to, like, invite people to come into the Thunderdome 3 on 1 1.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

We could do it whenever we want. Because as soon as I said I was doing it, it suddenly there was,

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

maybe we should do it.

[Tim Fullerton]

I'm down for that 100. It'd be great clips, too.

[Doug]

It's got to be tag team, though. You can't. Like, okay, who's gonna take this one? Or you rotate or something like that.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

So it's like a live version of the show, right? Yeah, just like, we kind of all talk over each other a little bit. But.

[Doug]

But if it's truly four versus one, and, like, we all want to rebut the same clan, I don't know.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

What if we just say when you come up, you get to pick who you want to go.

[Doug]

I like that.

[Tim Fullerton]

That's smart. I like that.

[Doug]

That's genius.

[Tim Fullerton]

That's.

[Doug]

Pick your. Pick your opponent, pick your fighter.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Now, we're gonna have to make an announcement when we do this, because people are listening now. They're like, I want to see that. But we also. You can download those lives, right? And you can. You could put them up on YouTube. So maybe.

[Tim Fullerton]

I think it's great. We should definitely do that.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

All right. We will do.

[Doug]

Nobody's gonna pick you, Luke. They're all gonna be scared of you. Everybody's gonna be like, I want one of the soft, squishy MSNBC liberals.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

They're gonna pick Tim until he tells him to get.

[Doug]

Or they'll pick.

[Tim Fullerton]

They're not gonna like what they get. Yeah, they're not gonna.

[Doug]

They're gonna turn Zach. They're gonna turn Zach back into a Republican. They'll pick him and slowly.

[Tim Fullerton]

Imagine that. Slowly get a live view back. Yeah. Fuck. I'm out, dude.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

I'm.

[Tim Fullerton]

I'm going, right?

[Doug]

That's a great point. I love the Epstein class.

[Tim Fullerton]

You're convincing me. Trump's not so bad.

[Doug]

Besides, all of these other things.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Finds. It goes in the closet, finds a Confederate flag around. I'm back, baby.

[Tim Fullerton]

Let's go.

[Another Podcast Host or Participant (possibly Rich)]

An eagle flies in through the window.

[Doug]

If he's got a Maga hat or a Confederate flag in his house, then he was never converted sufficiently in the first place.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

You are a New York, New Jersey republic.

[Tim Fullerton]

I never voted.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

You are not the people who are going to come up on this and tell us. Terrible.

[Tim Fullerton]

Definitely not. I mean, like, look, I hated Trump, so, I mean, come on.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

No, Yeah. I don't. There's not a lot of Romney people who come up on these things and be like, no, I want to talk about, you know, whatever.

[Doug]

And, yeah, it is remarkable when, like, you and Dick Cheney and AOC all hate the same person, and other people are like, no, that person's misunderstood. You're like, what the fuck are you talking about?

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

Oh, my God. All right, guys. Well, we have a meeting. Some of us have a meeting that we have to go to in one minute, so we are gonna have to wrap this up. But it was great to have David on today. And, oh, by the way, guys, I am now. I'm still 72 away from a hundred thousand last guy.

[Tim Fullerton]

Come on.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

My crying for followers on the last show did nothing.

[Tim Fullerton]

Now they're already all following.

[Doug]

You probably lost like 50.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

They're like, God, fuck away from. So gauche to like talk about that. So I would rather you get a membership at Find Out Media though. I will, I will. I will stay in my 99, 900, whatever to have more memberships.

[Doug]

So you say that because you. You say that because you set it up so that if somebody subscribes, they auto follow at Tim Fullerton.

[Tim Fullerton]

Imagine that.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

No matter where you follow in the Find out media ecosystem, you're automatically added to at Tim Fullerton.

[Tim Fullerton]

Perfect.

[Podcast Host (possibly Zach or Luke)]

No matter where. You know, I've been a digital guy for a long time. I know the tricks. All right, we're done. All right, thank you everyone for listening. We will be back on Tuesday. I don't think we have a guest for Tuesday. Yeah, we should probably talk about that, but we'll be back on Tuesday. Until then, have a wonderful weekend. We'll see you soon. Bye, everybody.