OBGYN Explains What Happens If The Supreme Court Upholds Abortion pill ban

Summary

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The Find Out Podcast

Episode Title: OBGYN Explains What Happens If The Supreme Court Upholds Abortion Pill Ban
Release Date: May 5, 2026
Guest: Dr. Nikki Sapiro, OBGYN, Author of We Deserve More
Theme: The real-life consequences of the potential Supreme Court decision on the abortion pill mifepristone—and the broader implications for reproductive healthcare during Trump’s second term.

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Overview

This episode is a frank, passionate, and at times darkly humorous look at the political, medical, and personal fallout if the Supreme Court upholds the abortion pill ban. The Find Out crew invites Dr. Nikki Sapiro, an OBGYN and author, to clarify facts, cut through dangerous misinformation, and explain the domino effects for patients, physicians, and reproductive rights.

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Main Topics & Discussion Highlights

1. State of the Abortion Pill: Facts & Myths

[04:02] - [05:55]

• Medication abortion in the US: Over 63% of abortions now are via a two-drug regimen—mifepristone and misoprostol.
  • "Mife is what's constantly in the news and what they're trying to come after because that's the most effective part of the regimen. It's been used worldwide for over 30 years. It's incredibly safe. It is studied tremendously. So safety records have less issues with it than Tylenol or Viagra." — Dr. Nikki Sapiro [04:19]
• The requirement to get mifepristone from a clinician was dropped during COVID, now made permanent, expanding accessibility via mail and telehealth—now at risk.
• Post-Roe, shifts to telehealth/mailed abortion pills meant expected drops in abortion numbers never manifested.

2. How Access Works in Restricted States

[05:58] - [07:25]

• Shield laws: Blue states (CA, NY) allow clinicians to prescribe abortion pills based on their own laws, shipping medicine to restrictive states.
  • "So what has been allowing this to happen is what's called shield laws.... clinicians are practicing in the state based off that state's guidelines and shipping it out..." — Dr. Nikki Sapiro [06:43]
• Packages do NOT have “abortion pill” written; privacy is maintained.

3. What’s Actually on the Table at the Supreme Court

[08:04] - [09:04]

• It’s not an outright ban on the drug, but a ban on telehealth dispensing and mail delivery—forcing in-person pick-up and gutting access.
  • "It's not banning the sale of the drug, let's be very clear. It's banning the dispensing of it via telehealth..." — Dr. Nikki Sapiro [08:26]
• The medical argument is a smokescreen—this is politics, not health.

4. Impact Beyond Abortion: Miscarriage Management and Broader Obstetric Risks

[09:10] - [13:16]

• Miscarriage and abortion are medically linked — mifepristone is standard for missed miscarriages.
• Without access, women have suffered (e.g., bleeding for months, denied care); example of Caitlin Joshu in Louisiana.
• Limit on use: generally up to 12–12.5 weeks, though dating is imprecise.
• Removing access raises maternal risks, especially in red states, including with life-threatening complications like ectopic pregnancy.
  • “Everything they have done over the last several years has made it more dangerous for a woman to be pregnant in a red state.” — Dr. Nikki Sapiro [12:40]
• Dramatic stories of political ignorance (e.g., suggestions to swallow cameras for gynecological exams) show a crisis of competence in legislating reproductive care.

5. Legal & Social Consequences for Women and Doctors

[15:16] - [19:18]

• Exceptions in abortion bans ("carveouts") don't work—legislators are not doctors; the law is vague, creating impossible legal choices for physicians and patients.
• Prosecutions for “abuse of a corpse” and criminalization of miscarriage (e.g., “miscarriage catch kits” in Wisconsin).
  • "They’re actually prosecuting women for abuse of a corpse... and coming after women for miscarriages as well because you can’t detect whether it was an abortion that was caused or a spontaneous miscarriage.” — Dr. Nikki Sapiro [19:01]
• Grassroots pushback and the normalization of extreme proposals is a legislative tactic.

6. Broader Social Fallout: Infant & Maternal Mortality

[21:23] - [25:38]

• Texas’ abortion ban correlated with a spike in infant mortality—babies with severe, nonviable fetal diagnoses must be carried to term and usually die shortly after birth.
  • "When you undercut abortion care... these babies don't survive more than hours or days and die and the infant mortality rate goes up." — Dr. Nikki Sapiro [22:19]
• Forced pregnancy and delivery is not risk-neutral in the US, especially for Black women, who die at much higher rates than white women during childbirth.

7. Historical and Structural Roots of Gender Health Inequity

[25:45] - [27:16]

• Broken reproductive health systems stem from deep misogyny and racism—Dr. Sims’ unethical experiments on enslaved Black women is cited as an origin.
• Even terminology ("hysteria"/"hysterectomy") comes from misogynistic medical assumptions.

8. Disinformation & Rhetoric: “Post-Birth Abortion” and Slippery Slope Tactics

[27:34] - [31:04]

• Trump’s claims of "post-birth abortion" are dissected; Dr. Sapiro clarifies this refers to hospice or palliative care for newborns with no chance of survival.
• Rejecting incrementalism: any exclusions become a wedge, leading to more severe losses of rights.
  • “The minute you put limitations in there...it’s the same thing we see with trans rights...You lose everything.” — Dr. Nikki Sapiro [30:01]

9. Controlling Narratives, Not Protecting Life

[32:08] - [34:24]

• Anti-abortion laws are about control, not about protecting women or children.
• Right-wing groups push “pro-nativity” while attacking IVF, birth control, and care for infertility.

10. Donations & Action: Supporting Reproductive Rights

[39:23] - [40:42]

• National Network of Abortion Funds and If/When/How (repro legal defense and bail funds) recommended as especially valuable groups for donations and support.

11. Healthcare Inequities and Insurance Absurdities

[36:07] - [36:16]

• Stark contrast: host’s partner’s fully insured, anesthesia-covered vasectomy vs. out-of-pocket costs for labor pain relief or IUD insertions highlights ongoing sexism in health coverage.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Safety Myths:
  "It is studied tremendously. So safety records have less issues with it than Tylenol or Viagra. Yet it continues to be the only drug that they come after and trying to regulate." — Dr. Nikki Sapiro [04:39]

• On the politics overriding medicine:
  “It has nothing to do with the safety of the drug. It has nothing to do with anything medical whatsoever. It is just politicians playing politics.” — Dr. Nikki Sapiro [08:43]

• On criminalization:
  “They're actually prosecuting women for abuse of a corpse... and they're coming after women for miscarriages as well.” — Dr. Nikki Sapiro [19:01]

• On legislative ignorance:
  "The problem is that these idiots who are like trying to legislate don't understand jack about healthcare..." — Dr. Nikki Sapiro [13:03]

• On exceptions in bans:
  "Exceptions don't work because you can't possibly carve out every exception. ...they don't know squat about the scenarios." — Dr. Nikki Sapiro [15:24]

• On bodily autonomy and legislative wedges:
  “The minute you start cutting off something, you lose everything...unless everybody gets on board with for all reasons at any point, no ifs, ands, ors or buts, that's how they start carving shit away from us.” — Dr. Nikki Sapiro [30:05]

• On insurance disparity:
  “My epidurals for labor and delivery were not covered by the same insurance that he got full anesthesia for his vasectomy.” — Dr. Nikki Sapiro [36:07]

• On cause and effect:
  “When Texas implemented their almost total ban on abortion, their infant mortality rate skyrocketed.” — Rich (Host) [21:18]

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Key Timestamps

• [04:02] — Overview: How medication abortion works, safety, and recent changes in access
• [07:13] — How shield laws facilitate access in red states
• [08:26] — The Supreme Court case isn’t an outright ban but blocks telehealth/mail access
• [09:10] — Link between abortion care and miscarriage management; impact of denying mifepristone
• [12:40] — Increased pregnancy dangers in red states
• [15:16] — How legal confusion paralyzes doctors, why exceptions fail
• [19:01] — Criminal consequences for women: “abuse of a corpse,” prosecution for miscarriage
• [21:23] — Post-ban spike in infant mortality, real stories from Texas
• [25:45] — History of racism/sexism in reproductive care
• [27:34] — Disinfo: Debunking “post-birth abortion” and late-term myths
• [30:01] — Why incremental limits always end up eroding rights
• [39:23] — Effective organizations for donations and activism
• [41:49] — Podcast wrap-up and reflections on the episode

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Final Thoughts & Resources

• Action Steps: National Network of Abortion Funds (NNAF) and If/When/How (repro legal defense) are highlighted for impactful support.
• The Podcast’s Tone: Candid, sometimes irreverent but deeply in earnest about the risks posed by current politics; the hosts try to balance gallows humor with moral outrage and practical guidance.
• Memorable moment: Hosts joke that “Abuse of a Corpse” is a perfect metal band name—underscoring both the absurdity and the horror of legal developments.

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Useful Links & Suggested Organizations

• National Network of Abortion Funds
• If/When/How: Lawyering for Reproductive Justice
• Planned Parenthood

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For further resources, see the show notes or join the Find Out social app for community discussion.

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Transcript

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[Tim (Host)]

So we decided to put a advisory

[Rich (Host)]

on top of today's Find out podcast episode because we talk about the sensitive issue of abortion in abortion services.

[Tim (Host)]

So if that is something that you have experienced or you have a hard

[Rich (Host)]

time listening to, we wanted to give you a heads up before we get

[Tim (Host)]

into it because it is a very,

[Rich (Host)]

very heavy episode and so we just want to let folks know before you dive into it.

[Tim (Host)]

We think it's a very important episode

[Rich (Host)]

and we think more people need to

[Tim (Host)]

understand what goes on in this country

[Rich (Host)]

related to abortion care and what does not. So with that, I hope you enjoy the episode.

[Tim (Host)]

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Find out podcast. We have a big show for you today. We are going to be talking about the news of the day which is that the Supreme Court has temporary lifted

[Rich (Host)]

the band on the abortion pill.

[Tim (Host)]

But it is very temporary. And also in the second half of the show we'll talk a little bit about everything that's going on. Also the fact that our new Find out social app is live as of this as when we've released the recording. So we'll talk more about that in a little bit. But we have a great guest today, somebody that is a good friend to all of us and she does.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

We were joking before.

[Tim (Host)]

I was like, how do I introduce you? Because you do like 300 things and I am going to refer to you.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

I think I'm going to get.

[Tim (Host)]

Let's see if I could do it

[Rich (Host)]

exactly the way you said.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

She is an author of We Deserve

[Tim (Host)]

More, a book on reproductive health that is coming out this month, May 19th. You can reserve it now across all the Book platforms.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

She is also an OGB Y N.

[Tim (Host)]

Oh my O, B G Y N. I don't have any notes.

[Jake (Host)]

Educated man.

[Luke (Host)]

The GYN has to go together.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

This is why we had to have her on, guys. This is why.

[Tim (Host)]

OB physician.

[Luke (Host)]

You're not supposed to be part of the problem, Tim. God damn it.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

I'm always part of the problem.

[Tim (Host)]

I'm a 47 year old Xennial.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

More Gen X.

[Tim (Host)]

Like what. What do you want from me? Most of the people my age vote for.

[Rich (Host)]

Vote for Trump. So give me.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Give me some credit.

[Kama (Host)]

That's true. That's fair. That's fair.

[Tim (Host)]

Nikki Sapiro.

[Rich (Host)]

Think here is with us, everybody. Nikki, nice to see you.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Nice to be here.

It's the worst intro of all time.

[Luke (Host)]

I'm so sorry.

[Tim (Host)]

Especially since we were talking about.

[Luke (Host)]

Was that whole thing just the intro? Because we're like six minutes in.

[Tim (Host)]

Oh, I'm just. I just took a page out of

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

how you usually do on this show.

[Kama (Host)]

Yeah, I just.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

I just.

[Kama (Host)]

That's.

[Luke (Host)]

That's nice. That's nice.

[Kama (Host)]

Well, well, let's.

[Luke (Host)]

Let's keep talking about this after we're done here.

[Jake (Host)]

You.

[Rich (Host)]

You okay? We don't have one, so you're all set.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Actually, maybe it's me.

[Tim (Host)]

Anyways, Nikki, where was big news last week where the federal government was trying to ban.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Did I get that right?

You did, yeah.

[Luke (Host)]

You got that one.

[Kelsey (Host)]

Nice job.

[Rich (Host)]

Yeah, I know.

[Tim (Host)]

Last week there was a temporary stay

[Rich (Host)]

issued by nobody's friend, Justice Alito, which can kind of tell you that this is just temporary.

[Tim (Host)]

But can you tell us a little bit about the abortion pill, how long it's been in the market, safety, all

[Rich (Host)]

that sort of stuff, and then we'll

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

dive into the sort of politics of this after that.

Yeah, I'd love to. So Right now, over 63% of abortions

are done via medication abortion in America.

So the routine regimen that we do is a combination of two medications, mifepristone and misoprostol.

Mife is what's constantly in the news and what they're trying to come after because that's the most effective part of the regimen.

It's been used worldwide for over 30 years. It's incredibly safe. It is studied tremendously. So safety records have less issues with

it than Tylenol or Viagra.

Yet it continues to be the only

drug that they come after and trying to regulate.

And the reason why it has become

so common for us to use it

is because when we kind of look at the.

The way things with Mifepristone have changed over the last several years is it used to be that you had to have a clinician dispense it to you in person, which made it really difficult to get that medication.

Then in Covid essentially what they did

is they lifted that requirement and then

in 20 they made that temporary lift

permanent so that anyone could get it via mail.

Now, over the last few years since

the fall of Roe versus Wade, we

have not actually seen the decrease in

numbers of abortions that we thought we

would see simply because so many people

kind of picked up and pivoted to doing abortion care via telehealth and we were able to really successfully get abortion medications into all 50 states.

So this is a pretty massive issue

that could gut abortion care.

Kind of the largest, most like shattering news to abortion care since Roe vs

Wade fell in 2022.

[Kelsey (Host)]

Question but how do states that have extreme restrictions on there, how do you get mifepristone into states like that? As do you still have to. Are the guidelines still the same, like from a, you know, to six week ban or whatever? Are this. Do you still have to follow those guidelines? Or they're like sor workarounds based on

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

this being so the same way that for example, if you had an upper respiratory infection but you were on vacation, you would in theory get your antibiotic

mailed to you wherever you are. Right?

So the same way you could pick

up a medication either at a different

pharmacy or get medication mailed to you,

you are held by where the provider practices.

So what has been allowing this to

happen is what's called shift shield laws.

And so shield laws are from the major democratic big states, right? Like your California and your New York have been really pushing through with this. And so a lot of these clinicians are in these states with shield laws that the clinicians are practicing in the

state based off of that state's guidelines and requirements and then shipping it out to all 50 states from there.

What's ha.

Yeah, it's amazing, right?

A really brilliant kind of workaround in

ensuring access to a lot of these states that have restricted access. But that's kind of what's at play here.

[Tim (Host)]

So I also assume that the package

[Rich (Host)]

does not have in bright giant letters abortion pill on it, which makes it easier. Much like I think if you were to get some stuff from a, a

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

particular company that refers to itself as one of our pronouns of the four of us, sends out stuff that doesn't

[Rich (Host)]

say what it's for, whether it's for your head or lower I will say,

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

but I do want to push back on you, Dicky, because you said that the, that Miffy is safer than Tylenol, but Tylenol causes autism.

[Jake (Host)]

Right?

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Isn't that what we have been told by this administration?

Yeah, that, that.

[Kelsey (Host)]

I'm kidding.

[Rich (Host)]

Well, I'm not kidding. They're full of shit.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

But yes, so, so if this, if,

[Rich (Host)]

if this ban stays, which looking at

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

the Supreme Court, especially after some of

[Rich (Host)]

the rulings that they have made over the past few weeks where they have not given any about precedent whatsoever, what happens if they actually rule to, to ban the, the, the sale of this, this drug?

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

So it's not banning the sale of

the drug, let's be very clear.

It's banning the dispensing of it via

telehealth and changing way it's dispensed from.

You can access it more readily and availablely to.

You have to get it in person.

Right. So again, it has nothing to do

with the safety of the drug. It has nothing to do with anything medical whatsoever.

It is just politicians playing politics with

how we can actually get the drug.

So it's not a matter of is

the drug safe, is the drug effective, it's how do we get the drug.

And so the, you know, the biggest concerns are is if this stays, essentially

less people can access this medication.

Now it's also really worthwhile in the

same time and in the same breath

that we're talking about mifepristone, that we

talk about how mifepristone is also used for miscarriage management. So it is not uncommon. We know that 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage. And it is not uncommon for women to go to an ultrasound at 8, 9, 10, 11 weeks pregnant and unfortunately find out that the baby has stopped developing or the baby no longer has a heartbeat.

And it is really not uncommon for

women to not be able to pass that pregnancy on their own.

And so you have one of two

options if that's the case. That's called a missed miscarriage, which is also known as.

Drumroll, please. A missed abortion. Right.

Yes.

So that's the problem is that miscarriage

and abortion are really linked in terms of care management and management strategy.

And so mifepristone is very frequently given

to women and people experiencing miscarriage when

they have this missed abortion in order

to get their body to naturally get rid of this, you know, non viable fetus.

[Kama (Host)]

Hmm.

[Tim (Host)]

Well, and what would happen so in

[Rich (Host)]

that particular case with those, that 20%, if, if they can't get Mifepristone. What is their other option in that case? If they've, if they've got a pregnancy that is no longer viable medically, what's the other?

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Yeah, that's a great question. And that's kind of what we've seen as some of the damages as a

result of abortion ban. So we have had many women out of Louisiana that have been turned away

from receiving healthcare in emergency rooms because

they have been bleeding out. Right. Their body can't pass it all at once. There's Caitlin Joshu of Baton Rouge, Louisiana, who took over two and a half months to pass a miscarriage. Bleeding excessively every single day because no one would treat her appropriately.

[Kama (Host)]

Oh my God.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Son would have helped her case, for the record.

Right, right, right.

[Tim (Host)]

So, right.

[Rich (Host)]

So in that state, everything is banned, Right? Anything related to abortion is banned.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

That's where this came out of. This came out of.

[Rich (Host)]

Got it.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Louisiana.

[Kelsey (Host)]

How many weeks can you use mifepristone up to? Like when, at what point does it have to become a procedure?

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

That's a really great question. So the further along you are when

you use it, as you can imagine, because the fetus is growing in size, it becomes more painful and arguably more dangerous in terms of kind of complications and risks.

So most standards will say up to

12 weeks, 12 and a half weeks.

The challenge is, as you can imagine,

is it's not always perfectly dated. Sometimes people don't know exactly when their last period is. Sometimes we don't have an ultrasound to date it. Right.

So there are cases of people using it later.

And yeah, I think that that's kind of part of the complications and challenges as well.

[Kama (Host)]

That's tough.

[Rich (Host)]

So on top of stopping abortions, which this really would do in certain states,

[Tim (Host)]

you're also putting the life of women

[Rich (Host)]

in these, in these, these non viable

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

pregnancies, their life at risk. Right.

[Tim (Host)]

Like this is actually going to make it more dangerous for a woman to

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

be pregnant in a red state. Correct?

[Tim (Host)]

Yes.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

I mean, everything that we, they have

done over the last several years has made it more dangerous for a woman to be pregnant in a red state. Every single thing, right from the point

of there are things like ectopic pregnancies

and in an ectopic pregnancy, what happens is you have a fertilized egg that implants into the fallopian tube.

And the issue with that is they

can develop heartbeats in fallopian tubes.

And the problem is, is that these idiots who are like trying to legislate don't understand jack about health Care and to the point where they have literally said, can you remove it from the fallopian tube and transplant it into the uterus? Which you cannot do.

[Kama (Host)]

What?

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

It's not how that works. Well, but let me ask.

[Tim (Host)]

But let me ask you this, though.

[Luke (Host)]

Only. Only to further emphasize that point. There was a doctor not long ago in a. In a deep red state who asked a doctor. It was a politician who asked a doctor on the floor of the state legislature why a woman couldn't swallow a camera to serve as their gynelo. A gynecological exam.

[Jake (Host)]

I saw that.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

What?

[Luke (Host)]

Because the politician didn't know that the digestive tract was separate from the reproductive tract.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Oh, my God.

[Jake (Host)]

Well, he. He thought that, you know, the baby grows in the tummy and the stomach.

[Kama (Host)]

Right, right, right. Where God put it. As we were.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

But no, that's important because that's crazy. That actually kind of undercuts my starting a little bit.

[Luke (Host)]

Right, yeah.

[Kama (Host)]

That's the floor.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Nikki. I think, Nikki, you are being generous by saying that they're ignorant. I actually think that most, not this guy in particular, I think most know

[Rich (Host)]

exactly what they're doing.

[Luke (Host)]

Yeah.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

And I don't think they give a shit. And I think it's mostly men who

[Tim (Host)]

are like, they've got it. Like I have.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

If I'm a Republican, I have to be, quote, unquote, pro life, which I am putting in quotes for those of you listening, because that party is not pro life at all. I actually think that they are perfectly fine with this happening, that they want the points, the political points.

[Tim (Host)]

And I don't. Because if you went, if you just

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

had to go to say, Amy Coney Barrett or.

[Rich (Host)]

Well, Donald Trump's a bad example.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

But somebody who actually knows, he doesn't believe something.

[Rich (Host)]

Yeah, he doesn't.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Well, he doesn't know and he doesn't care.

[Kelsey (Host)]

Yeah, he doesn't care at all.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

And you say that is not a. Egg topic pregnancy is not viable. And the only way to get rid of an egg topic pregnancy is an abortion. I don't think that they would do a car vote, would they?

Well, that's an interesting thing because they. Some do. So there are some, like, they talk

about abortion bans with exceptions.

[Kama (Host)]

Right.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

And the problem is, is that exceptions don't work because you can't possibly carve out every exception.

Right.

And specifically, the legislators are not doctors.

And so not only can you not possibly legislate for every carve out for every possible scenario, but they don't know squat about the scenarios. So you're like, you know, two steps below that. You're like, okay, in theory, sure, exceptions. But in practicality, exceptions never work.

[Luke (Host)]

And I would flip that. The doctors are also not lawyers. And so when you have minutes to make a decision and you don't know what you can do legally, that will not cost you your career or maybe, you know, thousands or millions of dollars in a loss freedom, then the doctor doesn't even have the ability to make the decision, the best decision, even if it is a legal one.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Yeah, I think that's an important piece of the puzzle because I think a lot of the times people will place

blame on the doctor and say, you should have.

When in practicality, they have intentionally made

it so impossible to decipher that there is a no win solution.

But I don't know if you saw

this case that came out, which was wild.

There was a woman in Florida who was pregnant and she was refusing to

have a cesarean section or a C section. She had had two prior C sections, and she was due for her third C section. And medical recommendations, given the risk for what's called ova or for uterine rupture, where that uterus open during delivery, the medical recommendation is to have another C section. This woman didn't want a C section.

And they mandated. They brought in a laptop on a zoom call with the local judge to mandate that she have a C section against her will because it is less

risky for the fetus.

[Tim (Host)]

What?

[Kama (Host)]

Yep.

[Kelsey (Host)]

That was crazy. Absolutely crazy.

[Luke (Host)]

So the fetus is more important than the adult woman.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

It's like.

That's right.

That these, like, fetuses at any stage

of gestation have as many rights as the parent and mother.

[Jake (Host)]

I mean, they used Adriana Smith like a incubator.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

That's right.

[Rich (Host)]

Well, talk about that case, because I think I know what you're talking about there. But what's that example is that the

[Tim (Host)]

woman that passed away and they kept

[Jake (Host)]

her, she was declared legally brain dead at nine weeks, Right?

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Correct.

And actually, I was just part of nine plaintiffs in the state of Michigan,

and we sued to overturn that precedent here in Michigan. So in 11 different states, we have what's called a pregnancy exclusion, where when you are pregnant, your advance directive is null and void and any of your medical wishes go out the window the minute you have any detectable pregnancy hormone in your system.

Wow.

So actually, for men, by the way, the best part of this case is I asked my husband if he wanted to be involved. And my husband was a co plaintiff with me because if I'M dead.

It's actually his rights that get infringed upon as the directive.

And nobody cares about a woman's rights. But the minute it comes touching a man's rights.

[Tim (Host)]

Right.

[Kelsey (Host)]

It changes the game. I actually a question about the, the this, the rights element and like the freedom. I remember Tim, you popped in and said, you know, take away their freedom as well. If this goes in. Are there states right now, and I'm kind of ignorant to this that are actively like imprisoning or like really punishing women for having abortions does that. I know that was threatened quite a bit when Roe v. Root is overturn, but has that actually been put into practice in any states yet?

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Yeah, we've seen it in multiple states where they're.

They're actually prosecuting women for abuse of a corpse is what they are calling it. Jesus. And they're coming after women for miscarriages as well because you can't detect whether it was an abortion that was caused or a spontaneous miscarriage.

And so there are also certain states that are putting into place laws around

miscarriage catch kits that you are supposed to catch the miscarriage as pass it and bring it in.

Are you serious?

[Kelsey (Host)]

What states are doing this?

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Wisconsin.

[Kelsey (Host)]

Wisconsin. That's not what I would have guessed.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Wisconsin.

Wait, how is, how are they. Just curious. How are they able to do that in Wisconsin with a Democratic governor?

That's a good question. Because that's a good question. We should ask Dr. Lierly about that. But it was.

Yeah, it was put through.

I don't know what they're.

Well, I'm assuming that the legislator I think think is still controlled by reflection.

[Luke (Host)]

Yeah. And then like whether it holds up. And now they have a new Supreme Court in Wisconsin. Vastly superior.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

So it didn't go through. They are push like.

[Kama (Host)]

Right.

[Luke (Host)]

That's what they want.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Put this up and they kind of like throw all this up and see what sticks. Right. And then they also throw all this stuff up to like normalize the fact

that this is insane.

So that in another year or two

they do it again and then they do it again.

Like we've been seeing that come out of South Carolina over and over again. Like they're. They're trying to punish women who have

abortions with the death penalty.

[Kama (Host)]

That's insane.

[Kelsey (Host)]

I mean all of this is insane. But that's homicide, right?

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Homicide.

[Tim (Host)]

Well, but like which they, which they

[Jake (Host)]

just gleefully brought back all the firing.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Oh, the firing squad.

[Jake (Host)]

Oh yeah. Gas execution.

[Kama (Host)]

Holy.

[Tim (Host)]

What like party of pro life, folks.

[Kama (Host)]

Yay.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

One of the only western countries left in the world that has the death penalty. And anyways, but the thing about the like these laws having unintended consequences. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but over the years the infant mortality rate in the country has been dropping is my understanding. But when Texas implemented their almost total ban on abortion, their infant mortality rate skyrocketed. Right?

Yeah.

Why is so. So they. They banned abortion.

I mean this is a really awful

thing to go into and I'm more than happy to talk about it, but buckle up because it really sucks to talk about.

So you really came for. For quite the.

The question tip.

Well, everything is terrible right now, so we might as well dive in, you know.

[Tim (Host)]

Yeah.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

So essentially what happens is if you get a awful diagnosis of the fetus that you are incubating, many people, honestly, out of empathy for the quality of

life for that child, will choose to terminate. And that is a lot of the terminations that we see later in pregnancy.

And essentially right, you have these cases

where these fetus are not compatible with life.

Right.

That now when you undercut abortion care,

you lose the opportunity to terminate that pregnancy earlier and you deliver a non viable baby and then these babies don't survive more than hours or days and die and the infant mortality rate goes up.

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[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

This is what Texas is doing to women. And I, I understand, like you are right, this is not a, this is not a fun topic to talk about. But I think people need to know what is actually going on because it's, it's one thing especially for men, right? Like we hear, oh, you know, Roe v. Wade is overturned and men are like, that is shitty. And like those of us obviously were outraged. But like a lot of people are like, and I'm going to go on with my day because there's just so much bad, bad shit happening, whether it's voting rights or whether it's this or you know, trying to overturn elections. But like this could happen to anybody in any red state at this point that like you could have a non viable fetus and the, and the state is saying, we know better than your doctor, you are going to need to keep this in you for the next seven months, six months, whatever ends up being. And at the end it is a fetus that is not alive or for hours, which is not a talk about quality of life is zero.

[Tim (Host)]

Yeah.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

And let's also add to it that pregnancy is not risk neutral. Being pregnant is not risk neutral. Staying pregnant is not risk neutral labor and delivery. Specifically in America where we have one of the highest maternal mortality rates of a developed nation. And specifically for black women that die, three to four times higher rates than white women. Like staying pregnant is not just like, hey, keep that baby cooking for another seven months. Like you are really putting additional risks

on the mother by mandating that they remain pregnant.

[Luke (Host)]

The thing that.

[Tim (Host)]

Yeah, and what, why is, sorry, so

[Rich (Host)]

what just you said about the mortality rates.

[Tim (Host)]

Why are ours higher than like we

[Rich (Host)]

should be the, we should have the lowest as the richest country.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

I could write an entire thesis on this, Tim.

In fact, I kind of did. Right. That's why my. Why I wrote my book.

But in general, reproductive health care is just so broken to the point that the. The grandfather of gynecology who perfected most of these surgeries that we still do

today, his name is Dr. Sims.

And he practiced his surgical techniques on

enslaved black women without anesthesia.

[Rich (Host)]

Oh my God.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

And then went on to do the

same surgeries to white women with anesthesia.

[Rich (Host)]

Oh, Jesus.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

This is a really uplifting podcast.

[Kelsey (Host)]

This gets dark and shit crazy.

[Tim (Host)]

It just fills you with rage back

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

when it's like a little more fun here.

[Tim (Host)]

Honestly, I'm glad I screwed up your

[Rich (Host)]

title at the beginning so we could have some jokes at the.

[Tim (Host)]

At the start of this.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Jesus.

[Tim (Host)]

But like, I mean, but it's. But like, this is like when people see liberals, progressives who pay attention in this space with their hair on fire. This is why. This isn't a game. Right.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

I mean, if you actually really want to get into the whole thing. Right. They called us hysterical for saying Roe versus Wade was going to fall.

[Tim (Host)]

Yes.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Why it's called a hysterectomy. Is that the origin of the word uterus is. Hysteria is literally made to mimic hysterical. So women by definition in medical anatomy are considered hysterical.

[Kama (Host)]

I. Yeah. That's why I don't use the word historical hysterical anymore.

[Rich (Host)]

I don't think I will be using it either. Oh, somebody.

[Luke (Host)]

I mean, we can keep on this path or we can pivot and make and. And yell at Republicans. Do. How do we want to. How do we want to go?

[Rich (Host)]

Well, I tell you what, Nikki, do

[Kama (Host)]

we need to pause?

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

No.

[Rich (Host)]

Okay.

[Kama (Host)]

Okay.

[Tim (Host)]

So. But there. There's a couple of.

[Rich (Host)]

Because I know we're getting a little short on time.

[Tim (Host)]

I. I do want to dispel some

[Rich (Host)]

lies, especially Donald Trump says.

[Tim (Host)]

Nikki, have you ever seen or heard

[Rich (Host)]

of a post birth abortion?

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Jesus Christ, Tim. Can we go like something a little lighter?

[Tim (Host)]

No, we gotta do. If you got something that's better.

[Kama (Host)]

Short answer.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

So it is a short answer, but it's. It also gets into something that's very grim. What that actually is, is hospice care

for these neonates that are. They don't have a quality of life.

And so it's palliative care for neonates.

Is what a post birth abortion is, is. It's keeping those neonates and young, you know, babies comfortable in their end of life. That also happens to be the beginning of life.

[Tim (Host)]

And I think that what the reason. And I'm sorry for going into such heavy topics, but I think that that is obviously not what they are trying to project, right? They like the way Trump has talked about this is this like I'm not

[Rich (Host)]

even going to get to the details but this horrific thing that isn't real

[Tim (Host)]

and that's my point of bringing it up is you're talking about palliative care which people get at end of life, right? Like that is not what I would say is the way that he is basically trying to say is that there's

[Rich (Host)]

a woman that doesn't want to have a baby, she goes through the whole

[Tim (Host)]

nine months and then she goes no,

[Rich (Host)]

I don't want it it.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

And then they do that.

[Tim (Host)]

I, that's the reason for me bringing this up because it is a lie. That is what they are trying to tell people. And I actually think there are a lot of Republicans that actually believe that that is what's happening. And that's why I do think it's important to talk about it because it is nonsense.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

It is just, I mean I can't imagine there are that many Republicans who

actually listen to this show.

So there's that no pretty much 0ibor

[Tim (Host)]

means so that people are armed with, with answers when their uncle at Thanksgiving.

[Luke (Host)]

Part of the narrative of the people

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

that we're talking to that are our base, right.

Like I am of the mindset that I believe every person should be able to access abortion care at any point in their pregnancy for any reason.

Because the same thing I said earlier, the minute you put exclusions in there,

the minute you put limitations in there,

it's the same thing we see with

trans rights right now.

The minute you start cutting off something, you lose everything.

Right?

So unless everybody gets on board with for all reasons at any point, no ifs, ands, ors or buts, that's how

they start carving shit away from us.

So Tim, while I agree with you in saying like they're not just like willy nilly doing abortion on the back table, I'm also vehemently over here raising my fucking flag saying, you know what? If a woman wants an abortion at 33 weeks pregnant, she should have an

abortion at 33 weeks pregnant for any reason.

It is her body, her choice, you know, because, because there aren't very many

actually that have it for the like non good reasons.

And you cannot legislate why they should

get it, what's appropriate, what's reasonable, what's

a good reason, how dead is dead enough for the fetus, Right? Like right, that's not a thing. And so unless we are all rejecting that comment entirely, like I Think we need to reject the entire framework of,

like, the conversation around that too.

[Luke (Host)]

Yeah, I mean, they're, they're perfectly capable of using a slippery slope argument when it comes to taking away their guns. Well, you can't regulate a bullet because that'll lead you to regulating the ammo, and then they'll regulate the gun. And then Joe Biden's coming from, from wherever he is now, taking away all your. Going door to door, confiscating your guns. But when it comes to a woman's right to control her body, they're completely, I mean, they're, they're purposefully driving that slippery. So every, they get one foot in the door and then they're grabbing every single thing they can possibly grab, and they won't stop at anything. And they've proven that to be true. So while I like, there are a lot of people who struggle between, like, the point of viability that was defined in Roe v. Wade and just full defense of abortion rights, like sort of as, as you, as you decide with your doctor. No legal judgment. But we don't. Like, that's not, that's, that's just a distraction when you get hung up on these. Like, it has to. It statistically.

[Jake (Host)]

Exactly.

[Luke (Host)]

Has to be a medical emergency 99.99999 of the time for any of those decisions to be made. And so, but they, you know, they make a meme out of it and they put it up on Facebook to, To get everybody freaked out so that they can come after women, which is their actual goal. It has nothing to do with do.

[Tim (Host)]

Right.

[Luke (Host)]

The baby or the mom. It has to do with controlling women. And this is just a bunch of red herrings so that they can get their little tentacles in. That's where I was trying to go earlier, because then we can make fun of Republicans a little bit more because this is like we're getting hung up. They don't care about the woman in the parking lot. No, they do not care about the fetus. They don't care about the pregnancy. They have proven that a thousand times over. And, and when we get hung up on debating the legality and the scientific terms, like, they've already won because the point is to stay in that muddy area so that they can continue making these big sort of macro gains turning us into the Handmaid's Tale, and they don't care how we get there. All they, I mean, they're coming after birth control and the Title X funding. Like they're. It's not just abortion. It's not just the pill. It's not just how you get the pill. It's all just part of the same much broader argument of how do we just get rid of the 19th Amendment and keep women pregnant and barefoot.

[Jake (Host)]

Rich. It's almost, it's almost like they had a, a project or something that they said they were going to do all of this in and they were crazy for thinking that they had that this thing that they all wrote down a plan to do was what they wanted to do.

[Luke (Host)]

They wrote it all down. And that's the thing is like, and I'll get off my soapbox here in a second. But they, there are people in the middle who, who think, well, I don't. I'm not against birth control. I'm not against miffy pill. I'm not against, you know, I, But I do think that, like, women shouldn't use abortion, like contraception. And those are the people we need to speak to because if they understand that the Heritage foundation is doing what they're doing, they don't care about the pill, they don't care about the mother. They are trying to keep women like, they're trying to suppress women at the highest possible level. If you can get them to understand that, then they won't get so distracted by these stupid memes about like, late term abortion and all of that. They'll actually understand. No, this is a power play. And we're just, we're caught up in the battles and they're winning the war.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Yeah, they're playing.

Yes. And we've been playing checkers the whole time.

[Tim (Host)]

I mean, I think you're right. I think that it's actually, you know, sort of reframing how I think about

[Rich (Host)]

this because I, I do agree that it should be legal in all cases, but I also sometimes, like, want to punch through the, the arguments. But you're right, it doesn't actually matter.

[Tim (Host)]

Right. This is a, this is a healthcare decision.

[Luke (Host)]

My opinion to have. Exactly.

[Tim (Host)]

Exactly. Well, and, and like, would a man want somebody to say whether they could have, I don't know, one of those little blue pills or not? Like, you know, and in a way you could be messing with like, life if, you know, I don't know.

[Rich (Host)]

That's a stupid argument.

[Tim (Host)]

But like, the point is, like, I don't want any path.

[Kama (Host)]

It's the same.

[Tim (Host)]

It is.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Right.

[Tim (Host)]

I don't want, I don't want some stupid bureaucrat telling me what drug I can and cannot have. If my doctor says it's the thing

[Rich (Host)]

that is going to make Me Better.

[Tim (Host)]

Better. Yeah, that's it.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

There is no other health care decision

or medication that you need to get legal permission to be able to access.

[Tim (Host)]

Right, Right.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

It is health care.

Right.

[Tim (Host)]

Or maybe the better example is, like, for Ben, a vasectomy. Some, like, super religious, right wing, like, Red state is like, no, you're messing with God's plan.

[Rich (Host)]

You can't have that. Would you.

[Tim (Host)]

Could you imagine a man saying, oh,

[Rich (Host)]

yeah, we're gonna vote for that?

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

That.

[Tim (Host)]

No, No.

[Luke (Host)]

I mean, I've seen.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

The thing is crazy, though, because, like, if you want to get into all the nuances of that. Right. I had three babies, and my epidurals for my children were not fully covered by insurance, but my partner had a vasectomy, and he got to go under anesthesia for it because he gets woozy,

and it was fully covered by insurance and cost us.

What?

[Kama (Host)]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

So my epidurals for labor and delivery were not covered by the same insurance

that he got full anesthesia for his vasectomy.

[Kama (Host)]

Me crazy.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Which, like, honestly, that's great. He should have that. That's great.

[Luke (Host)]

Yeah.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

But, like, can we all get that? Can women get that for IUD insertions? Can women get that? Like, all of the things. And we can't. And so until we can have parity across insurance coverage, all of these things

become a legal conversation, right?

[Tim (Host)]

Yeah.

[Rich (Host)]

Or maybe we should just not have insurance at all and everybody should just have access to. To healthcare. I mean, there's obviously lots of people

[Luke (Host)]

go to doctors and they get the care that they need, and then that's the end of the conversation. Nobody.

[Jake (Host)]

The idea of profit for healthcare, for profit is insane to me.

[Kama (Host)]

It truly is.

[Rich (Host)]

Yeah.

[Tim (Host)]

Well, Nikki, I want to ask you, because you. You have said a few times that, like, this is really heavy.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Are.

[Tim (Host)]

Is there good news in women's reproductive health that we could talk about? Or is there any, like. Like, also for our audience, like, other things that they should know about what's going. These are all like, I think I bet a lot of people listening to

[Rich (Host)]

this will have never heard a lot

[Luke (Host)]

of this, or, like, what can we do and who do we donate to?

[Tim (Host)]

Yeah, maybe that's. Maybe that's a better.

[Rich (Host)]

Better good news.

[Kama (Host)]

I feel, in the absence of good

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

news, anything good going on, I don't actually. You know, another thing that I think is a worthwhile share is how this relates to ivf.

So this doesn't get talked about as often either.

And I think this is a really

important piece because we know that 1 in 6 couples trying to conceive will strug with infertility.

And we know that of infertility cases

about 50% of them are male factor related.

So this is an issue that does

impact men, that does impact your listeners. Right. We know that reproductive health care is really important. And the reason why abortion bans are

linked to IVF is the way that IVF is done is that we collect multiple eggs, we fertilize multiple eggs, and then we transfer what's healthiest. And we also test, test those embryo. Right, we like test those. And so that's a big issue from the rights perspective is that they don't think we should be creating, you know, fertilized eggs that aren't all going to be transferred and they don't think that

we should be testing them.

And so when we look at kind of like their whole shtick of like wanting more babies and trying to like increase, you know, pro nativity and all these, like the pronatalist movement, the IV undercurrent is that they want to do

what's called restorative reproductive medicine, where they

want to turn it into only diet related or they want to make it so you can only get one egg at a time. And they want you to do something called compassionate transfer. So if you have one that's not viable, they may force you to transfer it at a time that won't take in your menstrual cycle.

[Jake (Host)]

That's the most ridiculous I've ever heard.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Compassionate transfer.

[Tim (Host)]

Compassionate to who? Certainly not the women.

[Rich (Host)]

Oh my God.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Yeah, so that's a great one.

[Kama (Host)]

So, so that's the good news where

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

you can donate and all of those things. So obviously Planned Parenthood gets a ton of donations.

Great option.

But one that really is very helpful to you and gets less donations is

the National Network of Abortion Funds. And why I love them is it's a network of over a hundred different. Abortion fund and abortion funds are kind of like community led grassroots organizations that function to support independent clinics in communities and people who are traveling for care,

need care out of state, need child

care coverage, need food.

They function often as clinic escorts.

So they will arrive to an abortion clinic and walk with patients in and out of the clinic to protect them from protesters.

They do amazing work.

So I think the National Network of Abortion Funds which can of, you know, disperses the donation to multiple funds is a really great option.

And then there's amazing orgs, one called if, when, how that when you had

asked about, you know, are there women who are being arrested for Things. They have the repro legal fund and

they have a bail fund specifically for

women who are arrested for these miscarriage and abuse of corpse charges.

And they also provide pro bono legal

coverage for any woman who's arrested for any reproductive health care issues. You. They're also who I sued the state of Michigan with to overturn that exclusion.

So they, like, do a lot of

really cool legal things around reproductive health care.

[Rich (Host)]

I love that. And we'll make sure we put the links in the show notes so that people could check those out. I mean, everybody knows Planned Parenthood, but those other ones do amazing work too. And I think that, you know, they deserve all of the money that you can give.

[Tim (Host)]

So with that, we said 30. We went 38.

[Rich (Host)]

Because you had a lot of things to educate us.

[Jake (Host)]

Tim kept steering.

[Rich (Host)]

It was me I it all up.

[Tim (Host)]

I was the one I it pronounced obgyn. Obgyn. To be fair. To be fair, I say every episode

[Rich (Host)]

that I have a block.

[Tim (Host)]

Like, I have the worst name and introduced.

[Rich (Host)]

Like, probably never should have had this job. Like, I have a freeze on, like names when I do it because I get nervous about screwing it up, which inevitably means I screw it up. So. O B G Y. Yeah, I got that.

[Kelsey (Host)]

Good work.

[Tim (Host)]

And physician's assistant. And I remember the name of your book.

[Rich (Host)]

We deserve better.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

No, we deserve more.

You're close.

[Rich (Host)]

Jesus.

[Kama (Host)]

Damn it.

[Tim (Host)]

God damn it.

[Jake (Host)]

Damn it.

[Luke (Host)]

Start over from OB this might.

[Tim (Host)]

This is like our 102nd episode.

[Rich (Host)]

This might be my worst one.

[Tim (Host)]

Yeah, like this. I would say it is.

[Kama (Host)]

You're pulling on this one.

[Luke (Host)]

Yeah.

[Rich (Host)]

Oh, man, I am sorry.

[Tim (Host)]

Well, but Nikki, thank you very much. Obviously we have a lot to learn.

[Rich (Host)]

Learn about women's health and women's reproductive health. And we really appreciate you coming on and listening to these four of boneheads

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

of us to help us join anytime. So any of you listeners, if you enjoyed hearing from me or you want to hear more about reproductive healthcare, then start pestering these guys and I'll keep hopping on.

[Tim (Host)]

Great.

[Rich (Host)]

We will do that.

[Tim (Host)]

So, Nikki, thank you very much. Have a great rest of your day. And for the rest of you, we'll be back in a few minutes.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Thank you.

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[Tim (Host)]

All right, welcome back, everybody, from the

[Rich (Host)]

most uplifting segment that we have ever

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

done, but I do think important, and

[Rich (Host)]

I am glad we did it.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

I'm sorry it was not as jovial

[Rich (Host)]

and fun, but hopefully we can pivot

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

to something a little more uplifting or

[Rich (Host)]

at least something that we can make

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

fun of, which is what you all come to expect from us now.

[Luke (Host)]

Yeah, I do have good news. In the process of having that conversation, I've been. I've been looking for a new metal band name for a while, and Abuse of a Corpse is now my new. My new.

[Kama (Host)]

My new metal band. So we'll be.

[Luke (Host)]

We'll be dropping our.

[Kama (Host)]

Our first album in nine months. Oh, I just came up with that on the spot. That was good. Thank you.

[Tim (Host)]

That was the soft pivot.

[Rich (Host)]

You did say that we were gonna hate it, so.

[Kama (Host)]

I said you specifically were gonna hate. Yeah, I mean, Abuse of a Corpse is a.

[Luke (Host)]

That's a lot. And there's, like, degrees too. There's, like, first degree, which is when you get into the.

[Rich (Host)]

Do you mean, did you figure this

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

out or did you know that?

[Luke (Host)]

No, I was Googling it.

[Kama (Host)]

I was, like, abusive.

[Jake (Host)]

I think we should take Rich's Internet access away.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Yeah.

[Luke (Host)]

Yeah. I've been on the Internet since the 90s.

[Kama (Host)]

You have absolutely no idea what this world has produced.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Produced.

That's true.

[Kama (Host)]

That's true.

[Rich (Host)]

That is true.

[Jake (Host)]

You never. You never got the Livewire videos just pumped to. Or live Leaks videos just pumped to you in high school.

[Kama (Host)]

What's that?

[Jake (Host)]

Literally the most atrocious gore monstrosities recorded ever.

[Rich (Host)]

Like, real.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Like, real stuff.

[Jake (Host)]

Oh, yeah, like all that.

[Tim (Host)]

We had that, though. We had that, though.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

It was called Faces ofdeath and broughton.com.

[Luke (Host)]

there were websites.

[Jake (Host)]

The Internet is a bad. A bad thing. I think on the whole social media and the Internet has been a net negative.

[Luke (Host)]

I think anonymity. Anonymity is the.

[Kama (Host)]

Is the dangerous part.

[Luke (Host)]

It's not because at the very least.

[Jake (Host)]

At the very least, unfettered access to the vast, vast majority of teenagers and even, like, preteens in this country. Right. Is a net negative.

[Kama (Host)]

That's a problem.

[Kelsey (Host)]

Right? I saw this comedian make a joke the other day that I agreed. It was where he's like, the problem with the Internet is it gave. It let all the other dumb people find the other dumb people, and like, before, they're all scattered around, and now they're all smushed together in one place. Like, that's Actually kind of true of

[Jake (Host)]

these dog cultures that have been. Have sprung up. Their home is the Internet.

[Rich (Host)]

Yeah. 100%.

[Luke (Host)]

There's not enough of them in any given town. Yeah, right.

[Tim (Host)]

Like, like I bet, I bet the

[Jake (Host)]

80s, the abortion, the anti abortion protests and like they were localized. You know, they had. You had to find. You had to find the other Bible thumping prick in your small town that hates abortions and then you have to go down to Plan Parenthood to get together. But like the Internet lets you. These find each other and they rally with each other.

[Luke (Host)]

Then they whip themselves into a.

[Jake (Host)]

It's the mansplainers and the misogynists and the black pillars and all of them. They found their community there.

[Kelsey (Host)]

The black pillar.

[Jake (Host)]

Oh it's like the, like it's, it's in. It's like in the same vein as like the Matrix. Red pill, blue pill.

[Tim (Host)]

Red pill is like really bad.

[Jake (Host)]

Like that's what the ma. The manosphere is.

[Kama (Host)]

Yeah.

[Jake (Host)]

Black pill is like straight great. Anti Semitism, racism, bigotry.

[Kelsey (Host)]

Like you're just like going all in.

[Jake (Host)]

Yeah, it's terrible.

[Kelsey (Host)]

Jesus, I've learned too much in the last 30 seconds. This is horrible.

[Rich (Host)]

Guys, we're. We launched a social media app today and we are.

[Jake (Host)]

And we're. You're safe from the black killers there.

[Tim (Host)]

Exactly.

[Kelsey (Host)]

There you go. That's interesting.

[Tim (Host)]

It is hell of a pivot.

[Rich (Host)]

Yeah, we, we think the Internet is bad, but guys, we launched a social app today.

[Tim (Host)]

True. It is ours and we control it. It's built on something called the Fediverse, which is a distributed network which means nobody can own it. Like our piece is our piece. And this is a space that we

[Rich (Host)]

hope that people will use if they

[Tim (Host)]

don't want to be on a platform

[Rich (Host)]

that's run by a billionaire or they want to be with like minded people. We will have multiple channels for a variety of topics that aren't just about.

[Tim (Host)]

About politics.

[Rich (Host)]

Could talk about the dog that just showed up in the back of Luke's camera there. Ellie. Ellie. Ellie gets. Has a big following online.

[Tim (Host)]

But there's, you know, we, we built out some channels for specific audiences.

[Rich (Host)]

Like we have a neurodivergence channel, we have a disability rights channel, but we

[Tim (Host)]

also have a politics channel, elections, food and drinks. And so like we want people to

[Rich (Host)]

be able to find like minded people

[Tim (Host)]

there and we are not going to

[Rich (Host)]

allow any hate speech or any violence.

[Tim (Host)]

That is an automatic ban.

[Kama (Host)]

Right.

[Rich (Host)]

And they will be gone.

[Tim (Host)]

So you know, and this is also

[Rich (Host)]

a place where you can also find all of our shows.

[Tim (Host)]

So it's a place for us to

[Rich (Host)]

be able to engage with you guys

[Tim (Host)]

and also be part of this movement.

[Rich (Host)]

To have, you know, bring social media back to people and not be. Not relying on a billionaire to what you can and cannot see. Because that's what's happening right now.

[Kelsey (Host)]

You know, it's fucked up.

[Rich (Host)]

Is.

[Kelsey (Host)]

I still don't fully understand what the Fediverse is.

[Tim (Host)]

I don't. I don't either.

[Jake (Host)]

But the arch, it's an architecture for how it's all like all of the

[Luke (Host)]

APIs and are all like open access.

[Jake (Host)]

That didn't help at all understand how it all works.

[Tim (Host)]

Well, let me, Let me tell you, Let me tell you this, because every half the people.

[Rich (Host)]

Well, 90% of people listening are like, I never heard that term before.

[Tim (Host)]

With this app, you don't know.

[Rich (Host)]

Need to know any of it. It works like, you just download it.

[Tim (Host)]

It's in the Apple. It's in the Apple Store, App Store and it's in Google Play.

[Rich (Host)]

You just go download it.

[Tim (Host)]

It's free. You download like any other app.

[Rich (Host)]

Like if you were to sign up

[Tim (Host)]

for threads, for example, this process works the same. Now, if you understand the Fediverse stuff, you can, can connect.

[Rich (Host)]

If you have a Blue sky or

[Tim (Host)]

a Mastodon account or a Threads account, you can connect them in a way

[Rich (Host)]

that you can post in one place and it goes to all the others.

[Tim (Host)]

But you don't need to know that. Like, like ours, for example. You guys, the reason we told you

[Rich (Host)]

all you had to turn on Federer sharing on threads is because we're going to pump in all of that content into the app. But you can also post in the app.

[Tim (Host)]

But it's meant to be. It's meant to be.

[Rich (Host)]

You could be in like five places at once, right? Yeah.

[Tim (Host)]

Yeah. It's almost like a real. It's almost like RSS A way, right? But like, you don't.

[Rich (Host)]

Zach, you will never need to know any more than. No, I know.

[Kelsey (Host)]

I'm just curious.

[Tim (Host)]

We could.

[Rich (Host)]

I. I have some people that could tell you if you want to sit through.

[Kelsey (Host)]

I'm one of those people where they would explain it. In the end, I'd be like, I still don't understand.

[Rich (Host)]

I barely have a grasp of it.

[Luke (Host)]

I turned it on and I kept

[Kama (Host)]

waiting for Roger Federer to show up

[Luke (Host)]

and teach me how to play tennis.

[Tim (Host)]

Well, if he's a fan of Federated

[Rich (Host)]

networks, maybe we'll see him, but I don't think he's probably busy with other stuff.

[Tim (Host)]

Well, what else is Going on, guys, I think we. The war in Iran is still going.

[Rich (Host)]

There was kicking back off.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

What do you mean?

[Jake (Host)]

What do you mean it's not solved? The master negotiator didn't solve it.

[Tim (Host)]

Also, wait, isn't the 60 day period expired? How are we still going?

[Jake (Host)]

He claims the war. He says that the naval blockade is a peaceful blockade.

[Tim (Host)]

Oh, but didn't he say that we might start firing again? Or is that a new war? Would that be. No, that'd be Iran war too.

[Luke (Host)]

No. So they're saying that the ceasefire is a pause in the 60 days.

[Kama (Host)]

So

[Jake (Host)]

the ceasefire that we shot through the whole fucking time, but that was the argument that we still blew up Lebanon during.

[Luke (Host)]

That was their argument.

[Kama (Host)]

It's not a, it's not a 60

[Luke (Host)]

day nonstop, you know, countdown. It's.

[Kama (Host)]

It's negotiable. If you stop firing for a couple

[Luke (Host)]

of weeks, then you buy yourself a couple of weeks and then the is

[Jake (Host)]

going to use the same math he's using about percentages on the 60 days.

[Kama (Host)]

The 1600% percent reduction in.

[Jake (Host)]

Yeah, we, we drop less bombs this day. That means it counts less towards the 60 days.

[Kama (Host)]

Oh, I like that.

[Jake (Host)]

Yeah.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

I mean, there's a reason why he

[Rich (Host)]

was at the bottom of his class all the way through.

[Kama (Host)]

He is.

[Jake (Host)]

Meanwhile, he drags about passing dementia tests.

[Tim (Host)]

I know. I love how he keeps talking about it. It's like, has anybody here that is under the age of 80 ever had one Cognitive. He's like, I've got, I've had, I've had like 15. They're all great. I'm able to identify a mountain.

[Luke (Host)]

Right.

[Tim (Host)]

I'm the letter A.

[Jake (Host)]

Like, you're like, yeah, his, his doctors are standing in the corner holding. The results are like, they're getting a little worse. Every time he takes one of these,

[Kelsey (Host)]

he's like, I mean, every time I watch him, it's like I used to feel uncomfortable watching Biden and this is worse.

[Rich (Host)]

Way much worse.

[Kelsey (Host)]

Holy.

[Tim (Host)]

I mean, to be clear, waiting on

[Kelsey (Host)]

that book, Jake, for real, it doesn't excuse the Biden. It's still.

[Jake (Host)]

No, no, no.

[Tim (Host)]

But if we're gonna, if we're gonna have.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Have.

[Tim (Host)]

If we're gonna write a book. We're gonna write a book. If. Yeah, we're doing this, we're doing it across, right? And like there is look like. I mean, I'm a bit of a

[Rich (Host)]

Biden defender, I will admit, but like,

[Tim (Host)]

yes, part of it was that he has a stutter and part of it is he's old as Dirt. So like he did slow down. But like Trump, I don't even know how you could compare these things. Like, at least Biden, if you, like all the, all the discussion, like if

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

you sat him in a room and talked about policies, he totally understands what you're saying. Saying Trump's like, I need a drawing.

[Kama (Host)]

Yeah.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Or I won't read it. No briefings over a page and it has to have graphics.

[Kelsey (Host)]

Yeah.

[Jake (Host)]

Like, the most stark difference is that Biden still surrounded himself with competent.

[Luke (Host)]

Well, that's part of it.

[Tim (Host)]

Right. And I think that was probably why

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

some people, including myself, were like, okay, but like all of the people around him are pros.

[Tim (Host)]

Right. Kama's there like the.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Jeffrey Zen is there like these people that like. And the, and the cabinet secretaries who were not picked based on their appearances on the weekend, Fox and Friends, like, these are real professional people. Whereas with him it's like, oh, I got Gene Pirro who can barely get through an episode and now she's the district attorney of D.C. yeah.

[Jake (Host)]

What, this personal attorney is the fucking Attorney General now?

[Kama (Host)]

Yeah.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Oh, Todd Blanche.

[Kama (Host)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Who still attends Partisan here or whatever.

[Luke (Host)]

This, this is how I see it. Joe Biden was struggling to pull us in the right direction, struggling to articulate

[Kama (Host)]

it, going too slow, but he was

[Luke (Host)]

still going in the right direction. Donald Trump is, he was sprinting in the wrong direction and now he's falling and failing and collapsing in the wrong direction and dragging all of us with him. So it's, it's kind of feels more like you're like you're holding onto a rope and somebody else is dragging you off the edge of a cliff and

[Kama (Host)]

you're like, how do I, how do I, I cut this rope so that we don't all go off the cliff at the same time.

[Tim (Host)]

I do think, still to be clear,

[Rich (Host)]

that Biden should only have done the one term. I don't mean, I don't mean any of that.

[Tim (Host)]

But I, but I do think when

[Rich (Host)]

you look from a policy, yes. If you take out the intent, if you take out 24 for a second,

[Tim (Host)]

if you just look at the policies

[Rich (Host)]

and the presidency, yeah, he's good. I actually think he will be considered the best one term president of all time.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Now that's not a high bar.

[Rich (Host)]

It's a short list you generally have left.

[Tim (Host)]

Except for, was it, is it Polk that did one term in the 1800s and it was like his.

[Rich (Host)]

Anyways, I, I have good news before we pivot.

[Luke (Host)]

Well, as we were recording Washington Post

[Kama (Host)]

exclusive, White House Lawyers are prepping their

[Luke (Host)]

staff for dealing with the Democratic Congress.

[Rich (Host)]

Ah, that's what I like to hear.

[Luke (Host)]

In private briefings, the lawyers are reminding staff members how congressional oversight works.

[Kama (Host)]

Works.

[Luke (Host)]

And suggesting the best practices for handling it.

[Kama (Host)]

So they're, they're doing back.

[Jake (Host)]

Remind me the wrong word.

[Kelsey (Host)]

Yeah, educated.

[Luke (Host)]

Reminding us for the first time, no idea. Yeah, they don't know accountabilities A C, C, O, U. Anyway. But no, they're, they're doing back office training on how to deal with hearings and, and subpoenas.

[Jake (Host)]

And Bondi confirmed that she's going to testify at the end of May.

[Rich (Host)]

Oh, she did?

[Jake (Host)]

Oh, yeah. They were going to hold her in contempt, which in my opinion they should do anyway.

[Tim (Host)]

Yeah, well, this, this Congress for a

[Jake (Host)]

month and a half.

[Rich (Host)]

Well, look, the Democrats are going to win the House no matter what. Right. I think at this point, unless there's some massive thing happens.

[Luke (Host)]

So I don't even know what that could like, I can't even fantasize about a scenario where we don't.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

I don't really want seats. Well, we don't need, we don't need to fantasize this.

[Jake (Host)]

We've had a dark enough episode already.

[Tim (Host)]

I was going to say I was

[Rich (Host)]

about to get super dark, but.

[Tim (Host)]

No, I mean she, she's gonna get. If even if they don't have her up on the Hill, the Democrats will

[Rich (Host)]

subpoena her and she'll have to do it and they'll hold her in contempt and then she's got a real problem on her hands.

[Jake (Host)]

She should be disbarred immediately.

[Rich (Host)]

Yeah.

[Tim (Host)]

I actually went through. I was in the Obama administration when

[Rich (Host)]

we went from a full Democratic majority to a Republican House and Senate, I think. And I tell you what, it sucks for the administration. It sucks big time time.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

It is not fun.

[Tim (Host)]

The first two years were fun.

[Rich (Host)]

The second two years were awful. And know plenty of people who got yanked up to the Hill for stupid ass reasons because it was the Republicans doing it. Now there's all kinds of real reasons,

[Tim (Host)]

like, oh, did you know, Marco Rubio, that because you shuttered usaid, almost a

[Rich (Host)]

quarter of a million of people have

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

died across the world.

[Rich (Host)]

Which is true. Yeah.

[Jake (Host)]

And the vast majority of them are children.

[Kama (Host)]

Yeah.

[Jake (Host)]

From the same party that is pro life.

[Rich (Host)]

We, we are not doing a good job with talking about.

[Kelsey (Host)]

Yeah, this is the darkest.

[Tim (Host)]

I think our episode.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Our.

[Rich (Host)]

One of our, one of our, our

[Tim (Host)]

behind the scenes people is listening to this.

[Rich (Host)]

He's like, I don't know how I'm gonna make a Thumbnail on the title.

[Tim (Host)]

Thumbnail.

[Kelsey (Host)]

Almost like we're in reaper costume.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Thumbnail of darkness.

[Kama (Host)]

Like abuse of a corpse across the bottom.

[Tim (Host)]

We are not doing that because we

[Rich (Host)]

will get demonetized and we will. No money.

[Kama (Host)]

That's true. That's crazy.

[Tim (Host)]

I. I kind of feel like maybe we.

[Rich (Host)]

Maybe this is enough for today. We have.

[Jake (Host)]

I concur.

[Tim (Host)]

We have.

[Kelsey (Host)]

Everybody get the out of here.

[Tim (Host)]

I promise whatever we do on Thursday, which we haven't talked about yet, will be much lighter and hopefully promise that.

[Kama (Host)]

I don't know.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

I mean, it can't be worse, can it?

[Rich (Host)]

I mean, who knows?

[Kelsey (Host)]

I mean, we could go into nuclear winter by then.

[Tim (Host)]

Well, that was one of the. That was one of the scenario. That was one of the scenarios I was thinking about that would.

[Kama (Host)]

Maybe it would be a nuclear summer.

[Kelsey (Host)]

I mean, he literally wrote 59 minutes ago that he says the Iranian forces we've, quote, blown off the face of the earth if they target US ships. So, you know, we're doing more.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

We're doing more genocide talk.

[Kama (Host)]

Or is that just raid? No, just Iranian forces. So we're still totally good. Oh, that's just nothing to be worried about.

[Kelsey (Host)]

He's reduced it down, you know.

[Tim (Host)]

Wait, but I thought they were already decimated.

[Kelsey (Host)]

Yeah, well, apparently not in the straight of hormones.

[Tim (Host)]

Well, anyways, guys, after listening to this, I know you're all chomping at the bit to get a membership at Find Out Media, right? Because you're like, how else could I get this? I need to be entertained like this twice a week. Plus the other shows we've got, right?

[Kama (Host)]

Absolutely.

[Tim (Host)]

So for the three people still listening,

[Rich (Host)]

you can get a membership@findout media.subsack.com you can get on Patreon. You actually get on YouTube too.

[Tim (Host)]

Also, please subscribe to our YouTube, which passed 105.

[Rich (Host)]

5,000 subscribers today, guys, which is really awesome. They love us.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

I mean, we may lose some after

[Rich (Host)]

this one, but, you know, it's doing all right.

[Tim (Host)]

But I think that's enough promotion.

[Rich (Host)]

I think we're good.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

I think we're good.

[Jake (Host)]

I think we're good.

[Tim (Host)]

We kind of. Kind of stumbled into the end of

[Rich (Host)]

this one, but that's.

[Tim (Host)]

That's okay.

[Kama (Host)]

Welcome to my world.

[Kelsey (Host)]

Yeah.

[Tim (Host)]

Is that going to be the name of your.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Your memoirs?

[Rich (Host)]

Stumbled into that one.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Stumbled into this one.

[Tim (Host)]

Hey. Actually, that could be true for you. You're this mad, massive content creator now. You kind of stumbled into that.

[Kelsey (Host)]

We all did, didn't we?

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

Right?

[Kama (Host)]

How it goes?

[Luke (Host)]

Yeah.

[Kama (Host)]

Yeah.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

See, there you go.

[Kama (Host)]

Best case scenario.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

See, we ended on a high note.

Man.

[Rich (Host)]

I love it.

[Tim (Host)]

All right everybody, we hope you have a wonderful rest of your Tuesday.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

While downloading the Find out social media

[Rich (Host)]

app, you all you got to do

[Tim (Host)]

is type in Find out social on

[Rich (Host)]

Apple or Google and it'll be right there.

[Tim (Host)]

So we'll be talking to you online. We have a actually have a have a a channel in there just for

[Rich (Host)]

Find out podcast so you can go tell us how terrible this episode was. It'll be our how we could wake up to it tomorrow morning.

[Tim (Host)]

So anyways guys, have a wonderful week.

[Nikki Sapiro (Guest, OBGYN Author)]

We'll be back on Thursday.

[Tim (Host)]

Bye everybody.

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