← The Find Out Podcast
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- [00:01]
A
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Foreign. Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Find out podcast. We hope you had a great weekend. We have a really big show for you. I think you're going to know our next guest because he has been all over the news this year. Actually, he's all over the news all the time. He is a state representative from Tennessee. He's also running for Congress. Representative Justin Pearson is with us today. Representative, it's great to have you.
- [00:59]
A
Hey, glad to be with you.
- [01:02]
B
I have to mention anybody that went to Bowdoin College, which is right next door to my hometown, is good with me. So, like, we're gonna get the main part. I always talk about Maine and then we'll move on from there. So that you do it is true, Graham and everything. Yeah, right. So. So, Representative, obviously there, unfortunately we don't have a lot of good news to talk to you about, but we wanted to bring you on because we want to make sure that our audience understands what is going on in Tennessee and across the south since the Supreme Court has effectively said that you could gerrymander any district any way you want. So can you just give us a little bit of a synopsis of what has happened in your home state over the past, let's say two weeks?
- [01:40]
A
Yeah. So we get the Calais decision. That effectively gets the Voting Rights act, one of the most seminal pieces of the civil rights movement and probably one of the most important pieces of legislation that Congress has passed in the history of our country to really make the ballot more accessible to people, particularly to black folks in marginalized communities. Within two days, calls were made to the Tennessee governor by the President of the United States, Marsha Blackburn, who's running for governor to take away the only black majority district in our state, which is Memphis and Shelby county, where I represent currently as a House member in the Tennessee House and where I'm running for the United States Congress. The actual district we were running in District 9 at that point in time. We're still running in District 9, but it was that one. And they cracked our district into three, made it all white majority districts 8, 5 and 9 in an attempt to dilute black Political voting power to Silas, the voices of our community. And this is, you know, as the way I explain it, it's the Neo Confederacy. These states in the south are not seeking to separate from the country within the country. They're seeking to solidify and codify their power using the tools of white supremacy that are available to them. They change state law to make what they did legal right. Like that's how far this is going. It was illegal until state law was changed during this special session to allow for mid decade redistricting. As they did, they cut that out of the law. You know, and you always hear government can't work fast. Well, it really can work fast when it's trying to oppress people. And since then we've been working across the South. I was obviously, I was in Montgomery this past weekend with other leaders. We are organizing political power because the more we show up, the more we mobilize. It doesn't mean that the road has somehow gotten easier. It is most certainly more difficult. This is definitely more challenging. But they've woken up the conscious of people who are seeing what's at stake in a way that I don't think people did before.
- [03:32]
B
Yeah. And I want, I want to get to Montgomery in a minute, but I want to go back on Tennessee for a second because so once this happens, you know, there's obviously there's like. There were a lot of photos that came out. There's a. One photo of you standing face to face with a, with a white gentleman. I think when you guys were trying to stop this from happening, what was the reaction from the Tennessee majority? You know, when you guys were trying to come in, I think did they actually kick you all off of the committees as a result of some of this? Is that. Are those connected? Because what is going on with. I've never heard of that before.
- [04:02]
A
I mean, look, you've got a guy, Cameron Sexton, KU Kluff. Cameron, who operates as a wannabe dictator. And he's been doing this for years, right from my expulsion a few years back, to the silencing of Democratic voices. Putting one black person or one Democrat on a committee so that Democrats won't be able to have their bills heard. Chair people silencing debate, calling the question, ending debate on really controversial topics. This is a pattern and I've shared with people a long time and we've talked about this, but the south, particularly Tennessee, has become the laboratory for autocracy, not for democracy. And so most of the laws that were passed against immigrants at our state level that were written by Stephen Miller and the White House. And these same laws are now going to be replicated across the south in the next 12 months. Right? This is the state that we are in. And so a couple of things happened. One, in a committee hearing in the Senate, I was going to watch. It was on redistricting, this racist redistricting map. And the sergeant at arms literally prevented me from going into the room, despite the fact that I had already been in the room. I was just returning inside of it, and he literally stood in my way and blocked the door. My brother got detained by state troopers despite the fact that one of the supervisors had told him, let Representative Pearson walk him. Let him go. And the two white women who are also part of our movement for justice, rooted in love. They didn't have a trooper escort, but for some reason, my brother had one. But this is a part of the patterns. And so at the end. Toward the end of session, you know, the Democrats and the Tennessee Black Caucus, we went to the well of the floor and we locked arms in solidarity with one another. And because of that, Cameron Sexton has decided all black Democrats would be kicked off of their committees. But unsurprisingly, some of our white colleagues, white Democratic colleagues, did not get kicked off of the committees. And a couple of them have resigned.
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B
Really?
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A
Yeah. Seriously, this is real life. Jesus Christ.
- [06:02]
B
Oh, my God.
- [06:03]
A
They're not showing their racism enough. And so kick out all black Democrats off of their committees. But the white Democrats, they're okay. That's where we are.
- [06:13]
C
You know, I just gotta. I just gotta be pissed for a second, because, you know, after we elected Obama, I was like one of those Pollyanna millennials. I was like, all right, we fixed racism in America. We can move on now. And then I was listening to. I think it was during his reelection campaign. I was listening to npr, and they interviewed. I think it was a Tea Party Republican at the time. And he said, well, I don't have any problem with black people. I just wouldn't want one of them marrying my daughter.
- [06:40]
A
Jesus Christ.
- [06:41]
C
And he was from Tennessee. And I was like, oh, okay. So they're not even. They're not. They're still not hiding it. Like, we thought it was a little bit below the surface, but it's really not in a lot of parts of the country. And if you're not from these parts and you don't know these people and hear how they talk, it's easy to forget. But this is them doing what they do.
- [07:01]
A
This is them doing what they're doing this is the I tell people in the south is where the majority of lynchings happened in our country, where black people were hanged on trees, off of bridges, burned a lot. Most of those happened in the south, but it wasn't exclusively in the South. And the hate that would lynch a human being burned them alive, cut off their body parts. That hate did not disappear. It dissipated into institutions of power. And so instead of having to be at the bottom of lynching trees, you sit in the state House, right? You, you serve as the speaker, you become governor, you wear a badge, you become a state trooper, you become law enforcement, right? Like they, they, they got power. You wear a black robe, right? You sit on the bench. That same hatred and just dissipated into the institutions. And so it shows up in a more insidious form. But we have to be realistic and honest that a lot of people got comfortable after President Obama was elected, believing that our country had lost all of his racism. But we have to remember Donald Trump's election was a direct response to Barack Obama's election. Barack Obama's election.
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B
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- [09:10]
A
Like that, that is, they are intertwined for history's sake. For that reason, Harvard educated black man, a Harvard educated black woman as first lady United States. The replacement, right, is a rapist, billionaire, pedophile who's all in the Epstein files, right, who married an immigrant himself, right? Like this is as a third wife. This is what, what we are told is the aspiration for our country.
- [09:36]
B
Right. Well, I mean it's, it's, it's, it's a very typical Republican, you know, rules for, for you, but not for me. Right. Like that they. And I think, you know, I was somebody that worked on the Obama campaign in 2008 and I, I had some of those same feelings though at the end of the election cycle we had to have extra security because it was when Sarah Palin came in, we started to see that birther movements and everything was very eye opening for a guy from Maine. And I don't mean to say that the north doesn't have racism. We do. You know, I think most people say it's like internalized racism rather than in your face, like what we're seeing. But like a lot of us, we sort of were like, oh, we're in this like post racial society, which of course once we saw Obama in office with the Tea Party, you know, this like there was all about spending. Well, George Bush blew up the deficit more than anybody in history. So it didn't have anything to do with that. So. And I think for people who look a lot like the, like the four of us here, it's really important to hear from you because I think a lot of times, especially when you live in blue states, you're like, ah, you know, like it's, we're better, it's just better. But like then you see this, right? Only kicking the black representatives off committees. When you got expelled a couple years ago for, by the way, asking for stronger gun laws in the, in the, in in response to horrific mass shooting, that was it. But you, the two, two of you were I believe, expelled. But Gloria Johnson, the one, the one white person, this has nothing to do with her but like she didn't get expelled. So like they have been showing this for years now. And I guess my question to you after all of this is like, how do you, how do you handle that? Like, what do you, what do you do next? Like, because obviously we know that this is a horribly racist decision from the Supreme Court down. And a lot of people have asked us and they wanted us to ask you like one, how do you keep going in the midst of such egregious racism and power grabbing? And then two, what can we do to help you get the message out and make sure that we are building power with the right groups of people?
- [11:30]
A
Yeah, those are really important questions. The first part that we all need to recognize is what states are doing in the wake of the Calais decisions, particularly in this neo Confederacy it's really asking we who believe in justice, freedom and equality a question. Have we done enough to stop you? Is this going to be the thing that stops you from fighting? Is this finally the thing we can do to, to silence you, to stop you from voting, to stop you from fighting us, to stop you from demanding better? And we are all in the north and the south and the east and the west, required to answer that question in community and on behalf of the 50% of black people who live in the south, for people who believe in justice in the south, for folks who are disaffected Republicans in the south, like, have, is this, was this end, right to quit, to make us quit? And I'm convinced it's not that in a country that, that enslaved African Americans and black folks, in a country that lynched us, in a country that has incarcerated us, put crack into our communities, and still we are here, right? Like, the reason that I believe that so viscerally is because that is the spirit of which we have come before, right? And it has always been in coalition, it has always been in community. It's been civil rights movement has all these big moments of, of Christians and Jewish folks, of Muslim folk getting together, right? Like, it is going to require all of us to say, you know what? You've tried it again and it's not enough, right? I'm going to care from Maine to Memphis, I'm going to show up, right? I'm going to fight back. I'm going to stand up, I'm going to, going to do everything that I can to still make this democracy work for everybody, no matter what you do. And that's where I think we are as a country and in our communities to say, like, oh, was this enough to stop us? Was this enough to break us, right? To stop believing that the American dream is possible. To stop believing that we can turn this into a multiracial, multi ethnic, multi socioeconomic movement for justice rooted in love, that this country can live up to its values and its ideals. Like, was this enough to stop us, this racist Supreme Court, these racists in these state houses, the these bigots who are now running for office to serve in Congress. Like, have they done enough to finally quit, make us quit? And our answer has to be a resounding no. And that is only resolved by building power. What you articulated. Second, we have to organize our families, our community associations and organizations, and support candidates and campaigns. First things first, is everybody in your family who's able to vote registered to vote? Is everybody in your family? I mean aunts, uncles, cousins, siblings, grandparents, parents, right? Just like write your list of 20 or 300 family members down and see if they're actively engaged. Do that first. Then go to your church, then go to your friend group, your social networks and say, hey, are they registered and actively engaged and who to vote for, how to participate when elections are happening. And, and then you're either running for office this year or you're supporting candidates who are. Volunteer that one hour to a candidate like myself. Go to my website, both justinjay.com happy to have you. We have a national team of people who are phone banking with us and give an hour or two to the campaign for people who you believe in, who are in this fight and leading this fight for voting rights, for civil rights, for human rights, for environmental justice, rights in our communities. And if you can, you donate as well. But nobody can sit on the, on the sidelines is ultimately what I'm getting at here. Whether you're organizing your family or organizing as part of a campaign, you have something to do, right? Vote.org it should be your best friend that you're handing out to everybody that you see, right? Like everybody has something to do in this moment in time. And so as long as you are actively participating in our liberation, you're doing the right thing. But if you're just doom scrolling and sad about the state of the world and you're not doing anything about it, you are complicitly, you are complicit in the problem that we are experiencing.
- [15:44]
C
They have not done enough to stop us. I can answer that question for myself definitively. And the other thing I'll add in is I have two kids. And I'll tell you what, my kids were not raised to believe that there are good people on both sides when this is what both sides look like.
- [16:01]
A
That's right.
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C
The next generation is being raised by millennials who are seeing this happen firsthand. As parents. They're not doing the. Well, you know, Uncle Todd just like believes different things, but he's still a good person. Like, no, Uncle Todd's out of the family now. So this is the response. And you see people giving up their careers, giving up their jobs to, to speak out against this. I think the backlash is real and the righteous rage is certainly justified.
- [16:32]
A
I want to get your take on something too with this redistributing because it feels like what they're doing is actually kind of a gamble. Because if we're right about this, that this is activating people in a way where more People are paying attention. More people are pissed off. Do you think the way that they've done this, they may actually roll a bad hand here and lose some of these districts that they've rebuilt because the margin is just too thin and they've made too many racist mistakes.
- [16:56]
C
Tell me Mandarin.
- [16:58]
A
I totally agree. I actually think that's what's happened for most of these Democratic in the last year. Most of the seats that Democrats ran in and or won there was a swing between 8 and 11 points from MAGA, Trump, Republicans to Democrats. These districts are like our district, I think, is plus 10. So we're right there to make this one of the most important houses in the country. We have another district, a couple of other districts that they've made more competitive. So instead of having sort of a guaranteed 8 to 1, you've now made three seats that otherwise would have been, or those three that would have been more likely, Republican, more competitive. And so if we increase our voter turnout, which is our expectation and which we're seeing all across the state, all across the country, by hundreds of percentage points, by the way, we believe that we are not just making these districts competitive, but we're likely to win them. Because you also have a number of disaffected Republicans who actually are a little bit sick and tired of the chaos, the hate, violence, and the viciousness that that is all Trump has to offer. And you got all these many Trumps trying to do the same thing. It's just like just hate the immigrant, hate queer people, hate black people. He has an Afro. He can't love you. Right? Like that's all they have to offer us. And still people are dealing with high gas prices. Still people don't have enough money for medicine. Social Security isn't stretching enough. They don't have enough resources to lift their kids out of poverty. The American dream is quite literally withering on a vine and dying across our rural, suburban and urban communities. And that's all Republicans have to offer is hate. And we've got a different vision to offer them. One where we increase wages, one where we make sure rural hospitals are closing because we're investing in universal access to health care. We're investing in veterans who served our community and our country. We're fighting billionaires who are destroying our planet for their own benefit with these data centers and this crypto mining literally for them to get richer while the rest of us suffer and die from our not having access to water, not having access to clean air, and doing something about this gun violence epidemic that is still hurting our communities, whether it be through suicides, whether through homicides. We know that we need more gun safety laws to keep more kids alive and keep more people in our communities alive. Because states that don't have gun safety laws, 500 kids on average die a year who otherwise would be alive. People understand that. And I think they have gambled to believe that for some reason our messaging won't make sense to people who live in rural America, when in fact our messaging is our only way out. Their messaging is what got us in this horrible situation. Gas is $4, $5, $6, $7 for another endless war that this president promised not to do again. Right? Like, like the people aren't stupid. We see y' all and we know what you're offering is not what we need.
- [19:51]
C
Didn't need a periodic reminder that being racist as fuck is not the path to economic prosperity, but that's where we are.
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A
They do, yeah.
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C
You know, every like 20, 30 years, they're like, have we tried being extremely racist? Have we tried throwing all the immigrants out of the country again? I mean, we tried this with, who was it, Was it Eisenhower who had Operation Wetback? Just called it Operation Wetback and they just threw like a million Hispanic people into the middle of Mexico and a whole bunch of them died because some of them weren't even from Mexico. They tried this in the 70s. They, I mean, Trump wanted to call it Operation Wetback 2.0 or something. And, and they were like, sir, we can't use that word anymore. So, you know, they just give it some other dumb name. But they keep trying this. And, and now I think the one thing that we have working for us is the, the information ecosystem is so much faster, so much more transparent, and so much more responsive to bullshit. You don't have to, like, how did people find out about lynchings 100 years ago or 150 years ago? You know, it wasn't, it wasn't on TikTok the next day, it wasn't on TikTok 20 minutes later. We actually have an ability to affect change as a response to this a lot faster. And I think that's what you're seeing where Trump, I think, just did this morning, hit the lowest all time approval rating. It's finally cracking into the, into the MAGA base is starting to, starting to implode. So I hate that we have to keep doing this. How do we stop it from happening again next time?
- [21:22]
A
Is my question part of it that Bryan Stevenson talks about with the Eagle Justice Initiative? Because he does A serious education on segregation, on lynching, on mass incarceration, on race and racism in America. Part of the problem is we don't tell that story. We don't tell the truth about our history. There's yet to be a reckoning with America's origin. Of committing genocide against Native Americans, of stealing the life, the liberty and economic prosperity from the literal blood, sweat and bones of black people for centuries, right? And then relegating them and delegating them to third and fourth class citizens. We don't talk about the, the history of racism within our policies enough for it to be a part of the national conversation. So you have these periods of inflection where it gets so bad that white people in particular are like, wait a second, we got to say something. But the truth of the matter is you've got to see it all the time, not just at the inflection points. You've got to see that in the state of Tennessee, 21% of black people don't have the right to vote today. Not because of the Calais decision, but because of felon disenfranchisement over the last 15 years that turned things that used to be misdemeanor felonies so that black people would lose, would have, would experience political deprivation. That is racism. That is trying to take away political power. And in order that you can consolidate your own power, which they have been effective in doing, right? That is how you recreate the three fifths compromise again and again and again. These are just different iterations of three fifths compromise. Because if you're a felon, you still get counted in the census, but you don't have access or agency. With this Calais decision, black folks, even though we're forced into a super minority within these districts, our bodies are counted as part of the census and as part of the districts, but they don't want us to have agency over who gets elected. And so I think part of the antidote to these, these peaks and valleys of these types of conversations is realizing that racism, whether we see it in the foreground or the background, is there, right? And that level, and my mom studied this stuff, but that level of permanence of racism within institutions and its insidiousness is something we have to call out. You got to teach, you got to share with kids, you got to share in conversations with folks because it is not always showing up with the black person being killed by police. And we just had a young black band, Darren, get killed by DEA agents who were supposed to be giving him a warrant. They Killed him at his job at Burger King as a part of this Memphis on state task force from the Trump administration. This is like, right, so we talk about Renee Goode, we talk about all these beautiful people who have been killed now, Alex Peretti. This is what's happening right now in our city. Linda Davis. Now we have a young man who's been shot and killed by again, federal agents who shouldn't be in our communities anyway. And so, yes, there are those moments, but it's the consistent work of racism that we have to be really cognizant of.
- [24:27]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think that's all, all well said. And I do want to go back to the original because I want to, I want to show people why, you know, you mentioned, like, why the, the district that you're running in is definitely competitive. I'm going to give people an example of what happened in your state earlier this year. Was it late last year when it was the replacing. I think it was Congressman Green in Tennessee seventh, Donald Trump and Marsha Blackburn. And I believe Mark Reed won that district by 22 points in 24. And then when Afton ran in the special election to replace them, the, the guy who won won by nine points. That is a 13 point swing. So if you are in a plus 10, that is imminently doable, like these, these plus 10 used to be like, oh, wow, you know, reach. But like as you said, endless war that we have no idea why we're there. Gas prices through the roof tariffs which have caused prices to spike everywhere. You know, he has done nothing, Trump has done nothing. And Republicans have done nothing on affordability. In fact, he said the other day, he doesn't even pay any attention to it, which is crazy. And you know, I, I think that, like, I think that you have a real shot here. And I think that, I think people are, I mean, not everybody, but I think people are waking up and seeing like, what is the brazenness of what these guys are doing. We even heard somebody, I don't think it was the Tennessee somewhere else saying they wanted to get rid of the 14th Amendment. It was a state legislator somewhere. So like Alabama, Alabama, Alabama, they're not even hiding it anymore. So for that I want to ask you just like, what are you hearing from folks, I mean, from folks on the ground in your, in that district? I mean, I have to assume obviously in the black community, everybody is outraged. I'm hoping that folks in the white community are also outraged because they live in Memphis and live in a, in a biracial area. But what are you hearing from constituents about what they have just done to these districts?
- [26:22]
A
Yeah, people are infuriated, frustrated, but also fired up at the same time. You know, yesterday I was in Williamson county, which is the wealthiest county in the state of Tennessee, and it's 191 miles from Memphis. Our district's about 200 miles wide. And so I was all the way up in Williamson county, and people are fired up. 500 Democrats showed up. It was one of the largest events they've had in the last several years. Right. So I think the energy that has been created by these racist actions, that is not something they're going to be able to tamp down on. And they are not going to be able to build the infrastructure around. Just go, hate those people. Hate those people. Hate those people. Or just count on the fact that there are Republicans who are in the district, and somehow that automatically means you're going to win. No, you have made the road a lot more challenging, but you didn't make it impossible. And that's where you messed up, because it is possible. We know Barack Obama won this district. We know that Phil Bredesen nearly won this district by, like, 0.02 percentage points. And so our possibility here is real. And particularly in this moment, with these endless wars of this Trump administration, with gasoline prices and grocery prices skyrocketing, with rural hospitals closed and people still dealing with medical debt, we know that we have a real opportunity to present a vision that is good for everybody, no matter what part of the state they live in. And they're allowing us to be able to make that case to people who need to hear it and who have not heard it from them in a very long time. And for Democrats, they haven't heard that message because the district wasn't constructed in this way, in the same way. And so this presents a real opportunity for us to bring forward a new vision for District 9 that is more encompassing, that is a lot larger, but that needs to hear it, because people are in pain and are suffering right now. And the folks who are running for office on the Republican side of the ticket, these extremist MAGA people, literally, their only tool I offer them is, is go hate the immigrants. Right? Don't look at the billionaires who are picking your pocket. Don't look at the billionaires who are buying up and closing your hospitals. Don't look at the billionaires who are putting all this stuff in your community that you don't want so they can make one more billion dollars while you can't afford to even buy a home. Right, right. That's what, that they want us to keep fighting each other instead of looking up,
- [28:37]
C
which is the thing that's so infuriating.
- [28:40]
A
It is, but it's literally, it's the movie don't look up. That's, that's the motto Republican Party. Don't look up. Right. Like, don't pay attention to we who are flying into freaking outer space in rocket ships. Literally. Right. Because we want to feel weightlessness in the earth's atmosphere while you don't have food for the summer because a Republican governor of Tennessee said you don't need summer ebt like you all be just fine. That's where we are. Right.
- [29:11]
C
Well, that's how they're trying to, that's how they're trying to give weightlessness to the rest of us, just not have us allow us to have any food. That's the thing that's so insane to me that, that I feel like, I don't know, we're all, we're all stuck in the gerrymandering loop thinking like Donald Trump, where this is like these are the walls, right? Like this is, these are the rules. But you can gerrymander the House, you can't gerrymander the Senate. It's already pretty gerrymandered by racial demographics. But you can't gerrymander the Senate, you can't gerrymander the White House. And even when you put voters in one district or another, you don't actually have to vote for white people when you're white. I think this is what the craziest part for independents and Republicans to hear is. You don't have to behave the way that they tell you just because they put you in a district and they say you're too dumb to see what's happening. We know you're a loyal Republican voter, so just vote for the white Republican. White, white people can actually vote for black people. I know that's crazy. And, and, and even Hispanic people, they might even be like gay and Hispanic. I mean this is crazy for some people to hear, but you can just vote for the person who's better for you for your personal life. And I think if you did that instead of paying attention to the, to the, their white skin color or the R next to their name, people would suddenly realize, oh, these time tested policies from 100 years ago that progressives are pitching are actually really good policies. They just don't hear it and they don't see it because they just consume right wing news.
- [30:44]
B
Well, Representative Pierce, I know you have a busy day and you drove through the night, I think, to get back, so you're probably exhausted. So we appreciate you coming on and talking to us, and I think our audience is really going to appreciate this as well. And, you know, a few of our folks wanted to pass along to also how much they appreciate everything you're doing and how inspiring it is to see you and others standing up against these injustices and, you know, want to make sure that you are aware that we will do whatever we can to make sure that you are successful and that we could push back against this. And one of those ways is for everybody to go to votejustinj.com and make a campaign contribution. As we said, it's a plus 10, but it is winnable, and if the representative has. Has the funds to do it, I think we're going to shock a lot of people in November. So, Representative Pearson, thank you. It's always great to have you on. We'll have to have you on again soon when you become Congressman Pearson.
- [31:40]
A
Yes. Let's do it.
- [31:42]
B
All right.
- [31:43]
A
Thank you.
- [31:43]
B
We'll talk soon. Okay, Bye.
- [31:46]
A
Bye.