Susan Rice on Trump’s Lawlessness, U.S. Allies, and the Economic Fallout

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Find Out Podcast

Episode: Susan Rice on Trump’s Lawlessness, U.S. Allies, and the Economic Fallout
Date: February 10, 2026
Guest: Ambassador Susan Rice

---

Overview

This episode features Ambassador Susan Rice, the former National Security Advisor, UN Ambassador, and Domestic Policy Council Director, discussing the realities of the U.S. government under Trump’s second term. The conversation covers the lawless actions of federal agencies, Trump’s treatment of U.S. allies, the economic consequences of his policies, and impending threats to democracy and alliances. The discussion is frank, critical, and underscores the seriousness of present challenges while retaining the podcast team’s irreverent, tongue-in-cheek tone.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Abuse of Federal Law Enforcement and "Gestapo Tactics”

• Lawlessness and Civil Rights Violations
  • Ambassador Rice expresses horror at the current state of federal law enforcement, comparing ICE’s recent actions to Gestapo tactics:
    • “What we are seeing is American federal law enforcement acting like Gestapo… busting into American citizens’ homes, ripping people out of their beds in their underwear, throwing them out onto the street, often beating their heads in in the process by masked men and then throwing them in cars and disappearing them where they can’t… access their lawyers, can’t communicate with their families.” – Susan Rice [01:25]
  • She notes the breadth of constitutional violations, especially of the Bill of Rights.
  • Rice asserts that Trump is fulfilling his explicit threats to use federal power against Americans seen as “the enemy within,” with the risk of further escalation.
  • “Maybe we haven’t seen the worst of this yet.” – Susan Rice [01:25]

2. Public Backlash and Civil Response

• Growing Awareness and Protest
  • Americans are increasingly outraged and mobilized, especially in states like Minnesota.
  • “I think the American people are waking up... Nobody voted for the Constitution to be violated on a daily basis and used as a weapon against the American people.” – Susan Rice [02:59]

3. Comparing Obama and Trump Immigration Policies

• Due Process vs. Profiling
  • Under Obama, deportations targeted individuals with final orders of removal or violent criminal convictions, following legal process and court orders.
  • Under Trump, there’s mass profiling, targeting based on race or language, and “disappearing” even legal residents and citizens, with families separated and children detained in poor conditions.
  • “What is happening today is literally profiling people based on their race… sweeping people up and disappearing them without any form of due process.” – Susan Rice [04:55]
  • Public opinion strongly opposes these extreme actions: “...if you look at every single poll, that this shit has gone way too far.” – Susan Rice [07:04]

4. The ICE Debate: Abolish or Reform?

• Structure vs. Abuse
  • Rice doesn’t see ICE as inherently broken, but as an institution fundamentally warped by leadership under Trump, including “crazy cruel people like Kristi Noem and Stephen Miller.”
  • The problem is the culture of impunity and recruitment of unvetted individuals, including extremists.
  • “What [Trump] has given them in effect is complete impunity. And that’s the problem.” – Susan Rice [09:54]

5. Republican Complicity

• Silence and Transformation
  • Rice reflects on her experience with Republicans in government, noting today’s GOP is unrecognizable compared to those she worked with previously.
  • She emphasizes a divide between traditional conservatives (who respected rights and the Constitution) and those now complicit or supportive of Trump’s actions.
  • “Some of them are chicken, some of them are immoral… and others of them believe that this is exactly the right thing to do.” – Susan Rice [14:21]

6. Economic Fallout

• Immediate and Broad Damage
  • The crackdown on immigrants and lawless policing are having dire economic consequences, especially in places like Minnesota. Workers are too afraid to leave their homes, businesses are suffering, tourism has plummeted, and the loss is measured in tens of millions per week.
  • “Minneapolis is losing 10 to $15 million a week in business… it’s shutting down everything.” – Susan Rice [16:50]
  • Seasonal economies and agriculture are especially hit, with labor shortages worsening due to fewer visas and increased risks.
  • Even international artists and tourists now avoid the U.S. for safety and moral reasons.

7. Deterioration of U.S. Allies & Foreign Policy

• Trust and Global Standing at Risk
  • The Trump administration’s actions, such as the failed Greenland ‘adventure,’ have seriously damaged alliances, especially NATO and European partners.
  • “What we got was… a potentially mortal wound to NATO, where the message we conveyed to our NATO allies was that not only can we not be relied on, we are, in fact, a potential aggressor.” – Susan Rice [20:54]
  • Trump’s erratic actions and disregard for alliances have caused Europe to doubt the U.S. and emboldened adversaries like Russia and China.

8. The Risk of Military Adventurism

• Annexation Fantasies & NATO Threats
  • Discussion of Trump’s fantasies about annexing Greenland and even Venezuela, noting real fear that he might escalate militarily.
  • Rice gives a “20%” chance Trump would attempt military action regarding Greenland. “Not zero… you can’t put these kinds of things past him.” – Susan Rice [23:24]

9. The Value of Alliances

• Strategic Necessity
  • Rice forcefully argues that alliances are a source of American strength, cited as “the secret sauce of our superpower.”
  • She recounts how NATO invoked Article 5 after 9/11 to defend the U.S.: “The allies came to our defense and fought with us for 20 years in Afghanistan.” – Susan Rice [28:48]
  • She rejects isolationism as dangerous and factually misguided: “The idea that we are safer, stronger, or healthier… when it is fortress America… hated and distrusted by everyone else in the world—you know, I’d like to have a debate with whoever you’re talking to.” – Susan Rice [29:42]

10. Economic and Security Interdependence with Europe

• Mutual Destruction and Global Vulnerability
  • U.S. and Europe are economically intertwined: “Europe is, as a bloc, our largest trading partner. We can do enormous damage to each other.” – Susan Rice [31:09]
  • A trade war or severed alliances would be mutually destructive, undermining both economies and global security.

11. China’s Gain from U.S. Retreat

• Power Vacuum and the Rise of China
  • China is exploiting the U.S. withdrawal from global leadership, expanding its influence, and positioning itself as a responsible power—even if that’s mere optics.
  • “China can’t believe its luck… they are reaping the spoils of the United States’ retreat from global leadership.” – Susan Rice [35:21]

12. Threats to Free and Fair Elections

• Democracy at Stake
  • Rice warns that Trump is actively working to undermine the integrity of upcoming elections, including efforts to seize voter rolls and ballots, and possibly “nationalize” elections in key swing states.
  • “Trump is telling us, as he often does, what he aims to do… I think they’re fearful that they can’t win in a free and fair election now.” – Susan Rice [37:28]
  • She emphasizes the need to win both electorally and in court, and to protect vulnerable voters at polling places: “We’ve got to compete and win those elections… and at the same time… see what it is he’s trying to do, understand it as a critical threat and stand up through the courts, on the streets.” – Susan Rice [37:27–39:54]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “[ICE agents]…busting into American citizens’ homes, ripping people out of their beds in their underwear, throwing them out onto the street, often beating their heads in…” – Susan Rice [01:25]
• “What [Trump] has given [ICE agents] in effect is complete impunity. …And that’s the problem.” – Susan Rice [10:12]
• “Minneapolis is losing 10 to $15 million a week in business. … It’s shutting down everything.” – Susan Rice [16:50]
• “What we got was… a potentially mortal wound to NATO…” – Susan Rice [20:54]
• “I’d give [Trump militarily invading Greenland] 20%. …You can’t put these kinds of things past him.” – Susan Rice [23:24]
• “The idea that we are safer, stronger, or healthier… when it is fortress America… hated and distrusted by everyone else in the world — you know, I’d like to have a debate with whoever you’re talking to.” – Susan Rice [29:42]
• “China can’t believe its luck… They are reaping the spoils of… the United States’ retreat from global leadership.” – Susan Rice [35:21]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• ICE “Gestapo” tactics and constitutional violations: [01:25–04:29]
• Obama vs. Trump immigration policy: [04:55–07:20]
• ICE: Abolish or reform?: [07:20–11:06]
• State of the GOP and Republicans behind closed doors: [13:05–14:56]
• Economic impacts of lawless immigration policy: [16:50–19:15]
• Damage to alliances, Greenland incident, and NATO: [20:18–21:53]
• Possibility of Trump military action/Annexation: [23:01–24:00]
• Value of U.S. alliances, rebutting isolationism: [27:06–29:42]
• U.S.–Europe economic interdependence: [30:59–32:13]
• China’s gains from U.S. retreat: [34:45–36:45]
• Threats to free and fair elections: [37:27–39:54]

---

Closing Moments — Personal & Lighthearted

• Ambassador Rice reminisces about playing basketball at a Title IX event in the Interior Department, and her niece Kiki Rice’s basketball success at UCLA. [41:05]
• On President Obama turning the White House tennis court into a basketball court: “That was actually one of the only atrocities that Obama committed, in my judgment…” – Susan Rice [42:27]

---

Conclusion

Susan Rice delivers an unvarnished and urgent critique of Trump’s current administration, the perversion of federal agencies, the economic and diplomatic fallout, and the grave threats to democracy and global stability. The conversation is a sobering assessment with moments of levity, highlighting the importance of public vigilance, activism, and the electoral fight ahead.

Transcript

[Zach]

Foreign.

[Host 1]

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Find out podcast. We have a great, great guest for you today. Someone that has the experience of many people all, all wound up into one person. She was the Assistant Secretary of State for African affairs and I actually believe was the youngest Assistant Secretary at the State Department ever. She was also the 27th Ambassador to the United Nations. She was the 23rd National Security Advisor and I believe the second one for President Obama and then went over and was the 22nd director of the Domestic Policy Council at the White House under Joe Biden. This is Ambassador Susan Rice. Thank you Ambassador for joining us today.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

It's great to be with you guys.

[Host 1]

So you, you are one of the.

[Host 2]

The few people who have sort of.

[Host 1]

Sat at the top of government in both foreign policy and domestic policy. So we want to talk about on the domestic side first. You know, and getting your thoughts on everything that is happening with ICE and with these insane masked agents coming and snatching people away.

[Host 2]

Did you ever in your life imagine.

[Host 1]

That the US Government would be used in this way?

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Honestly, no. I mean what we are seeing is American federal law enforcement acting like Gestapo and literally busting into American citizens homes, ripping people out of their beds in their underwear, throwing them out onto the street, often beating their heads in in the process by masked men and then throwing them in cars and disappearing them where they can't, you know, access their lawyers, can't communicate with their families. Nobody knows where they are or ripped out of their cars, you know, or shot dead in the street for exercising their First Amendment rights. I mean, it's absolutely insane. So no, you know, I, you know, I am a realist and I understand that, you know, we in, in the, when the American people sent Donald Trump back to the White House, said it was going to be very, very bad. And you know, he was explicit. He said, you know, I'm going to use the military against the enemy within. So maybe we haven't seen the worst of this yet.

[Zach]

That's what I was going to ask actually is my first question every time we start talking about things like this is do you believe we're on a path more to get substantially worse or that maybe we're doing enough to sort of stop them in their tracks? And this is the worst.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

It, I think it's going to get worse. Wonderful.

[Zach]

Sorry, that's us. I asked the question.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

But the good news is that I think the American people are waking up. Nobody voted for the Constitution to be violated on a daily basis and used as a weapon against the American people. Some People thought they were voting for lower egg prices or, you know, you know, sealing the southern border, but nobody thought they were voting for Americans being stripped of their ability to assemble, to speak freely, to, you know, carry a lawful weapon, to have their homes protected from illegal search and seizure, Fourth Amendment, like. Like they're violating every single one of the Bill of Rights almost. And people are pissed, and they should be, because, you know, that nobody. Nobody wants that, you know, So I think, you know, Minnesota and the people of Minnesota, and particularly in Minneapolis, have been extraordinary in their coming together peacefully, you know, on a sustained way to say, no, that's not what we're for. And I hope, and I'm starting to. To. To believe that, you know, around the country, people are waking up to the crazy, vicious, illegal actions of ICE and Border Patrol.

[Host 2]

So there's. There's one question, I think that's all exactly right. There's one question that we keep hearing from, from MAGA supporters in particular, that are saying, well, you know, Obama deported 3 million undocumented, or I don't remember what the number was, and that's way more than Donald Trump. Can you, for our audience as an expert, explain the difference between the Obama immigration policies and what the Trump administration is doing today?

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Well, I will try, but to be clear, I did not work as national security adviser, as UN Ambassador, the two roles that I held under the Obama administration on immigration and immigration enforcement. But I think the bottom line is that what President Obama did was to go after people who had committed crimes and violent crimes in particular, people for whom there was a final order of removal after they'd gone through a judicial process and remove them. And frankly, I think that's what we should be doing. We do need a secure border. Absolutely. And we do need to enforce our laws. And when somebody has had the benefit of going through all of their asylum claims, all of the legal process, and have been found after an extended process, which frankly takes years, often, that they do not qualify to be here, and they're issued final orders of removal and. Or they have committed a violent crime, they should be removed. But that's in a very targeted, specific way, with the authority of a court and, you know, with a proper warrant. That is not what is happening today. What is happening today is literally profiling people based on their race or based on their language or based on, you know, their perceived origin, place of origin. And they're just, you know, sweeping people up and disappearing them without any form of due process. And many of the people who happen to be swept up are American citizens or people who are in this country lawfully, you know, who are granted legally the right to be here. And they're. And yet they're being disappeared. And when you see kids being taken off the streets and put in the horrible detention centers with disease and all kinds of lack of support and resources, it's horrific. Families being separated. The American people have been clear that if you look at every single poll, that this shit has gone way too far.

[Host 3]

Yeah, we, we saw there was the measles outbreak right in the Dilly facility in Texas where Liam Ramos was being kept despite having no deportation order for him or his. Anyone in his family. Susan, I want to ask you because you've had experience in the executive branch before and after the creation of DHS and ice, and that I think is really remarkable. It's very important for people to recognize how young ICE is. And when you look at the tactics you've described, when you look at the rights that they've trampled, and then you look at, I think it was a federal judge in Indiana ruling, Indiana or Illinois ruling on the Minneapolis occupation or invasion, she wasn't sure if she could, if she had the power to pull, to. To require them to leave. So my question to you is, when you look at what ICE is doing, I don't know if you're an abolish ICE or a reform ICE person, but is there a foundation that can work for ICE in the United States, given our, our federal laws that have been passed by Congress and that have been vetted by the Supreme Court? Or is ICE fundamentally built on a broken foundation and does it need to be abolished?

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

I don't know if it's built on a fundamentally broken foundation. I think it has been abused by Donald Trump in both of his terms and turned into something that it hasn't been and needn't be. People weren't freaking out about ICE for the most part, you know, during the Obama administration, during the Biden administration, you know, yes, there were those who said, you know, they're still deporting people. Well, you know, there are people who need to be deported. When people commit violent crimes, when people have final orders of removal, you know, there is a. They have then exhausted their legal remedies and there needs to be some targeted ability to remove them, but remove them with basic respect for human rights and human dignity consistent with the rule of law and a court order consistent with the Constitution. And none of that is what's happening now. And that's why it's, you know, and What? Trump has set a tone at the top and he's put, you know, crazy cruel people like Kristi Noem and Stephen Miller in charge of this very powerful apparatus. They put billions of more dollars into it and basically said, you can do what the hell you want. He literally said, Trump, that these people have complete immunity. Well, there's no such thing legally as complete immunity. Immunity. But, but what he has given them in effect is complete impunity. And that's the problem. It's. And, and now, and he's also recruited people into ICE without proper vetting, obviously without sufficient training. And you know, you know, some of these folks, I'm sure, are, you know, proud boys or the equivalent. Yeah, and so that is, that is the problem. The problem is not, in my opinion, necessarily the institution of having, you know, a portion of federal law enforcement dedicated to enforcing our laws. You know, but these people are not doing that. They are being lawless themselves.

[Zach]

Right.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

And, and you know, so that's how I answer it.

[Host 3]

Yeah, no, thank you for that. This is because this has been on my mind. It's like, is ICE fundamentally broken or, or is there something that's salvageable? You've seen.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Clear. How we salvage it now is a challenge. Right, right. Because it's been so permeated by this culture of impunity and by people who really have no business being part of any kind of federal law enforcement. Sorry, go ahead.

[Host 3]

Well, no, and so the follow up question was more like we had immigration enforcement and national security before DHS and ICE. We had different organizations. Right. ICE came around and DHS and ICE were created after 9, 11 and you know, the beginning of the war on terror. And, and I think people are conflating the existence of ice and I don't, I'm not in this conversation, but I think people think like, you have to abolish ICE or you have to have what it is now. And if we abolish ice, we have no immigration enforcement or we have no laws that, you know, we have no other way of, of dealing with this. But you've seen firsthand, I mean, you worked in the Clinton administration.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

You've seen, but not on this issue again. So, you know, I can't claim an.

[Host 3]

Apples to apples experience, but we've had national security. I mean, we've had to deal with this before. It's just, it just looked different. So presumably it could look different in the future whether we call it ICE and we replace it with.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Yeah, we need, we need, we need an arm of the federal, federal law Enforcement that, that does what we call interior enforcement. Right, right. But that interior enforcement needs to be targeted. It needs to be focused on people who have committed violent crimes or who have. Whose legal process has been exhausted and they have final orders of removal. That's not what we're dealing with here.

[Zach]

Yeah, I have a question on this, too, actually, because, you know, one thing you often hear is, you know, Republicans behind closed doors are very unhappy with this, but out in public, they'll keep backing Trump on this stuff. You've been in federal government for a very long time. I'm sure you've amassed a number of relationships with Republicans. Do you have that same belief system where most Republicans are actually against what's going on, but they don't speak out about it? Because I think that speaks to Rich's point of, well, can we salvage this and turn this into something else? If most Republicans behind closed doors actually feel like this is too much and we could reform ice, that's one thing. So do you feel like you have.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

No, I don't have a good enough feel for, you know, what Republicans are thinking and saying behind closed doors? I mean, and the Republicans are not the Republicans that, you know, I even, I worked with in the Obama administration. You know, they're very, very different, many of them, very different. You know, there's traditional conservative Republicans who have a respect for the Constitution and the rule of law and states rights and, and believe that the most important thing in many respects is the government staying out of your.

[Zach]

Yeah, this is the opposite.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Your bedroom, your living room, your house, your. Your property. And this is completely the opposite. But the, you know, the Republicans have morphed, and some of them are chicken, some of them are immoral. Some of them have no respect for the Constitution. And, you know, others of them believe that this is exactly the right thing to do. And so, you know, what you. What you're basically saying is, you know, how many of them are that in. Fall into the chicken category?

[Zach]

I think a lot.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

And I think we're seeing, you know, it's hard to. It's hard to segment them. Right?

[Zach]

It's true. It is hard to segment.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

It's. It's. At least most of the traditional conservatives, such as they remain, have been unwilling to speak out on this or. Or many other atrocities. Yeah, but there are a few. And, you know, you got to give them credit. You got to give Massey credit, you got to give Don Bacon credit, you got to give Thom Tillis credit, you got to give Lisa Murkowski credit. And, you know, I'm running out of.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I think you hit them.

[Zach]

I hit them all.

[Host 2]

Well, because I, I mean I'm from Maine and so like, you know, I.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

You notice I did not say Susan kind. Well.

[Host 2]

Madam Ambassador, these guys have heard me scream about this till I'm blue in the face that like there is this, this myth out there that Susan Collins is some sort of moderate, but like she hasn't done anything on this. And in fact, after Minnesota, they went to Maine. Maine, which is by the way, the white estate in the country, which you guys have heard me say forever. And I think there was a stat where they, they rounded up like a hundred people, six of them had criminal convictions. And all it's doing is making the, the immigrants that we have in Maine, especially the, like, we have a Somali population in Lewiston. All they're, they're staying, they're shutting their doors, which means they're not going to the corner grocery store, they're not buying things, they're not going to work. It's just, it's wreaking havoc. And so that leads me to another question which obviously you are well adepted answering is like, well now I want to find a way to say this not so ridiculous, but I'm going to say it anyways. How dep. Like the moral question is one thing, right? It's, it is bad, it is immoral. This is not what America is about it legal. But from an economic perspective, this doesn't strike me as making any sense either. And can you speak a little bit about how damaging this could be not only for our standing as what we represent, but from our own pocketbooks?

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Well, I mean, you can see it happening real time in Minnesota, right? Small businesses, large businesses, both are suffering. Their employees aren't coming to work. And these are obviously people who are here legally documented at US Citizens who may look like me or look, you know, Latino and who are afraid to go into work. You have customers that are afraid to go patronize places that they were accustomed to patronizing. You have, you know, all kinds of, you know, suppliers to these businesses in the same boat. I mean, I think I heard a statistic this morning actually where Minneapolis is losing 10 to $15 million a week in business. And it's probably much more than that because it's shutting down everything. You know, so it's, it's incredibly bad for the economy. You know, our, our agricultural economy depends enormously on immigrant labor. Again, many of whom are here on, you know, temporary work permits that allow them to do agricultural work. You're from Maine, Tim? I'm very familiar with Maine. I got family ties to Maine. And, you know, I know throughout New England, but also in other places that have a seasonal economy. You know, so many of the seasonal workers are, you know, people coming in again on temporary work permits from, you know, Europe, Latin America, the Caribbean, all over the place, doing, you know, cleaning hotel rooms and serving in restaurants and doing all the things that the seasonal economy requires. And, you know, they too are, you know, the number of visas being issued to them are down. The risk of coming to the US is now much higher. You know, Canadians are boycotting our country in droves, which affects not just border states, but, you know, snowbird states. I mean, it goes on and on. The economic ramifications.

[Host 2]

And there's also the fact that, you know, tourism was down dramatically this summer and because these other countries are frankly afraid to come here. I mean, there was a.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Nobody wants to come, right?

[Host 2]

Nobody wants to. I mean, I'll give you a. I'll give you a ridiculous example, but like, we all know the band Queen, while their guitarist Brian May came out and said, we will not. I mean, they're old, so, like, maybe they weren't gonna do it anyways, but like, they're like, we're not done a tour in the United States because it's not safe anymore. These are banned. These, this is with security and everything. I mean, these, these operations are actually multi million dollar operations. And all these people are like, nope, I'm not coming here.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

There's both people who may feel it's not safe. And then there are people saying, why am I going to spend my money over there?

[Host 2]

Right?

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

When they're, they're acting in such an.

[Host 2]

Abhorrent way, like, well, the way we treat them, right. I mean, this, this Greenland thing. And I know we want to talk mostly on, on domestic stuff, but like these, these international endeavors. I guess I don't have a good name to call these things. They.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

They.

[Host 2]

What did you say?

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Adventures?

[Host 2]

Adventures, yes. I think we're all being too kind, but, like, they have real world ramifications not only for our standing globally, but then the fact that, like, first of all, all those green lenders were like, hell no, we don't want to do this. And like, we've pissed off all of, like, Europe over this. And like, we didn't actually. Apparently there was like some sort of deal, but I don't think we ended up getting anything other than just pissing them off and signing a piece of paper that said nothing. And Now I guess it's over.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Piece of paper's been signed.

[Host 2]

Did we get anything?

[Host 3]

I think they pointed at the old papers that were signed after World War II, and they were like, dumbass. Like, look at this.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

And he's like, no, I. You know, I. I think, yeah, what we got was a. More a potentially mortal wound to NATO, where the message we conveyed to our NATO allies was that not only can we not be relied on, we are, in fact, you know, a potential aggressor.

[Zach]

Yes.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

And, you know, you don't only have to worry about Russia and China, now you got to worry about the United States as well. And meanwhile, you know, because you have committed to uphold your article 5 responsibilities. An attack on one is an attack on all. And said that you would, you know, support Denmark in its sovereignty of over Greenland. Trump, you know, threatens to hit him again with even higher tariffs.

[Zach]

Right.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

So he's just using, you know, an economic cudgel against our allies for upholding our alliance.

[Zach]

Ridiculous.

[Host 2]

So I have to ask you a very important question before we.

[Zach]

Sorry.

[Host 2]

So. So you have worked, I believe, for three presidents.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Correct.

[Host 2]

Presidents Clinton, Obama and Biden.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Correct.

[Host 2]

Did any of them ever ask you whether you thought we should acquire Greenland?

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

No.

[Host 2]

Okay, Just checking. I just wanted it out there. I just wanted it out there.

[Zach]

He's obsessed with it. I don't know if anybody saw what he posted on Truth Social, either this morning or last night, but very recently. But he posted an AI IM of him sitting down in the Oval Office with all these different European leaders across him and a map behind him. And on the map, there's the United States flag over America, Canada, Greenland, and Venezuela. So he's making it very clear that his aspirations are to advance our territory by any means necessary and just have all our European allies sit there and nod along with it. It's an absurd concept, but he's. He's doubling down on it. I mean, so my question is. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Do you.

[Zach]

What are the odds that you think he'll actually attempt to follow through on any of this? Because he's obviously obsessed with it from a PR perspective. But the.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

What do you mean? Follow. What do you mean? Let's actually.

[Zach]

Actually attempt to annex Greenland in some way, shape or form, like start with that? Something like.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

But I don't mean to be difficult, Zach, but I don't want to ask an answer, an imprecise question of this significant.

[Zach]

The military getting militarily. Yes.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Do you. What do I think of the odds of him physically invading Greenland?

[Zach]

Yes.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Not. Not zero. I mean, I. I'd give it 20%.

[Host 2]

Oof.

[Zach]

That's terrible.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

I don't. I don't think it's likely.

[Zach]

Right.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

But I. But I. But primarily because he has said it's not likely. I just, I mean, but I don't, I don't. You can't put these kinds of things past him. No.

[Zach]

Bottom line, it's an obvious aspiration, but I'm curious, because we hear this, you know, this is a threat that's been made. What does something like that even look like? Like, what is the military functionally doing if he were to execute that 20% here and go and do that?

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

What I don't want to get into speculating about.

[Zach]

Yeah, it's terrifying.

[Host 3]

Like, 60,000 people who live there.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Right.

[Host 3]

Like, they don't want them. So then it's a. Then. Then it's war. I mean, but here's the important thing.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Here's the important thing. The American people don't want it, of course. Okay. Nobody. People are not in favor of using military force to take over Greenland.

[Zach]

No.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Not Republicans, not Democrats, not Independents. And people do not want to blow up NATO. And that would, you know, blow up NATO in a heartbeat.

[Host 3]

I think that's something that John Thune and maybe even Mike Johnson might act like. Probably not Mike Johnson himself, but I bet John Thune and enough Republicans in the House and the Senate, if he tried to draw that line, I think they would say, no, we're not crossing that.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Well, they did say, in effect, and I don't think that was. Two things I believe have potentially caused Trump to slow his role on Greenland. One was the articulated opposition of a significant number of Republicans in Congress. And the second was the impact on the stock market and the bond market of, you know, it. Of the reaction to this insanity. And, you know, those are two things that, that, you know, at least the second of the two, which Trump has some history of. Of. Of crediting to some extent. So. And, and then, you know, the third thing is, I think the Europeans said, you know, finally, no way.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Thank God we're not down with this and we're not going to roll over and play dead. And if you push us on it, you want a trade war, you get a trade war.

[Zach]

Yeah, right.

[Host 2]

Well, I wanted to get. Because I. I assume, you know, President Macron personally, the President of France, and he. There was this stunning text message that got leaked out, which I assume they did, because I doubt Trump would. Where he literally is, like, pleading with Trump on a whole host of things. It's basically like, we could do great things in Ukraine. We could do these things. But he's like, I have no idea what you're doing with Greenland. Like, I have no idea. Which you don't usually see this level of candor. And we knew that the Europeans were, were frustrated, but to me, that, like, the fact that he was like, what are you doing? Just shows the, the fact that, like, there isn't really a strategy here other than to cause chaos. But, like, also, why are we, why are we pissing off our, our allies like this? It, like, it boggles the mind whether it's for trade reasons or for, you know, assistance in Ukraine or whatever. Like, we're just raining chaos down, all these people, which is going to make us weaker and hurt our economy. It makes no sense to me.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

But, but Trump has no regard for our allies and they understand that now. And that's why what he's done is so damaging. Even, you know, if, you know, he never does anything regarding Greenland, you know, he has conveyed to our closest allies that he is a threat to them.

[Zach]

Yes, that's true. And it's not just the relationship with the allies from a governmental perspective. It's also the people who follow Trump and their perspective on what's right. I have people in my life who have voted for Trump and I hear them all the time say, who cares about our allies? They don't matter. And it's like that downstream is a very bad, dangerous.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

But Zachary, explain to me what their rationale is.

[Host 2]

I would love to.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Most people get. Most people get. You're safer with friends than without friends. Like just basic, you know, human nature.

[Zach]

Sure.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Would you rather have no friends in your life, in your world, or would you rather have friends who, when the, you know, when the stuff hits the fan or down with you?

[Zach]

Yeah, I mean, you're, you and I are aligned on that. I think speaking for them, their perspective is they're very nationalist, isolationist folks that they sort of are, through the mindset of it doesn't matter if we have allies or not, we can self sustain, which is not true, especially in a globalized market that we live within. The globalized world we live within. It's not true. But I think you're, you're hearing. I'm hearing a lot more. Republicans go, I don't care about any of this because it only matters. It happens to America. They can't conceptualize.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

I care what happens to America.

[Zach]

Yes, they do.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

That's why I believe so much in the importance the power of our alliances yes. Like, you know, in a dangerous world where, you know, you've got powerful adversaries like Russia and China. You know, the reason why Russia and China want nothing more than to break our system of alliances is because they know it is like the secret sauce of our superpower.

[Zach]

Yes.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

It is something we have that they don't have.

[Zach]

Absolutely.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

And it matters enormously whether we're talking about in Asia or Europe or wherever. And it is because they understand that when we have friends and allies who are willing to be by our side when the stuff hits the fan, like on 9 11, you know, the only time NATO has ever had to invoke Article 5, an attack on one is an attack on all, is when we were hit by al Qaeda on 911 and the allies came to our defense and fought with us for 20 years.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

In Afghanistan. And so the idea that we are safer, stronger, or healthier in any way, shape or form when it is, you know, fortress America, isolationist, no allies, and hated and distrusted by everyone else in the world. You know, I'd like to have a debate with whoever you're talking to.

[Zach]

Trust me, I spent hours with them. You get nowhere. It doesn't matter how much sense you make.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

All right? No, but they're fundamentally.

[Zach]

They're wrong.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Not thinking rational.

[Zach]

They're not. I mean, look, let's remember these are the same people that are like, well, Putin's not so bad. You know, it's. It's how they arrive there, I have no idea. So they'll do. I. I think we have to remember about these kinds of people is they'll do whatever it takes to contort themselves into a position where Trump is still okay. And I think that's a huge percentage of why you see this.

[Host 2]

And they have this whole ecosystem, right, of media. You can go from TV to digital to podcast, whatever, and you would never leave this right wing bubble, right? Like, they are told that we are all evil, you know, and they push the horribly racist birther lies. That's why Trump. How Trump got this big, as he did at the beginning, was pushing racial lies about Barack Obama. And it just went from there. And now, like, I, like we all now, because we're swimming in the space, like, see some of that world. And it's like you, it is shocking what people will post and people will believe. But one thing I want to ask you, though, because I think this is where I think we could do a better job of explaining is, okay, we piss off Europe to the point where they want to retaliate against us? Could they cripple our economy if they wanted to?

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

I think, look, Europe is, as a bloc, our largest trading partner. Right. We can do enormous damage to each other.

[Zach]

Right.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

That would be mutually destructive. You remember that used to be in the nuclear time of mutually assured destruction.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

You know, that's what we're talking about. So, you know, it. We can hurt them, they can hurt us. Nobody benefits from that.

[Zach]

Right, Right. That's.

[Host 2]

Well, that's the crazy part, right. These are our allies. Like, these are people that we have stood with since most of them since World War II or one and most, and then the rest since World War II. But, like, you know, like, if they were to call our debt, for example, Right. Like, that could cause, like, a massive, massive chaos in our economy.

[Zach]

Right.

[Host 2]

Like, if they got pushed too hard. And I, I think, you know, Zach, for Europe, the people that you talk about, like, they think of the. Like the. The national security element of it, which is obviously crucial, but they don't make the connection of, like, well, Europe is not just this little weak spot over across the pond, right. That speak different languages and, you know, we don't think are as tough as we are, which is also not true. But, like, they are vital. Like, and we need to be working with these people because otherwise, like, they look to. They look elsewhere.

[Zach]

Right.

[Host 2]

Which leaves us alone.

[Zach]

Well, that's my question.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Well, that's exactly the benefit, like, for China, right?

[Host 2]

Yes, that's what they want, right?

[Zach]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Well, that.

[Zach]

Well, that's my other.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

China wants China. That's what China wants. Trump's giving them by alienating Europe.

[Host 2]

Why do you think he's doing that? I know I'm trying to make you get into the mind of an absolute madman, moron. But, like, it just doesn't. Like, it doesn't make any sense other than to just break things.

[Host 1]

To me, at least.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

I think my summary statement is that domestically and internationally, Trump wants to take the United States back to the 19th century, you know, where. So internationally, that's a world in which, you know, you had great powers with their spheres of influence, you know, and, you know, economic barriers between these. These spheres and the great powers ran rampant in their spheres. Now, we are a global superpower, or at least we were until a year ago. Meaning that, you know, we weren't just playing in one little sphere, regional sphere, which, you know, as Trump defines, is essentially, you know, the Americas, including Greenland and Canada. You know, that's what he wants us to be predominant in and let China have its way in Asia and let Russia have its way in Europe, as long as it doesn't, you know, affect my ability to do what I want to do in my sphere. That's a very 19th century concept. But add to it a different 19th century concept of, you know, of robber baron style wealth accumulation. You know, so it is also taking, you know, kleptocracy to a whole new level. But again, I can, you know, I can rape and pillage in my own sphere and the other great powers can do what they want in theirs and I get mine and it's mine for me and mine for my family and mine for my cronies. So that's what I think this is about. Internationally. He is not interested in what is serving the U.S. national Security Interest or the U.S. national Economic Interest for that matter. At the end of the day, he's interested in what deals he can cut and what power he can a mass in his sphere.

[Zach]

I have one quick question. How much if he continues down this path, how well positioned has, is China becoming essentially to come in and sort of swoop up what we're, you know, kind of shedding with Trump's terrible policies? Because, you know, to me, I think obviously China has adopted a very different structure of how they look at international relations. They've gone from being very adverse, I mean, still adversarial in a lot of ways, but they're capitalizing on being sort of a pseudo communist capitalist state and they're obviously looking to expand. So how much of this can China really swoop up and put them in a much greater position to just take over as the number one superpower?

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Well, China can't believe it's luck, right? You know, it goes to, you know, the global fora, whether it's Davos or, you know, the United nations. And you know, all of a sudden it is able to portray itself as the upholder of the rules based international order, which is a joke. But it, you know, at least they're not physically trying to acquire, you know, other countries, sovereign states around the world with the, you know, you know, except Taiwan. Yeah, but, you know, they, they are, they are reaping the spoils of, you know, the United States retreat from global leadership, from the, you know, the imperial, the destruction of USAID and the, the Voice of America and you know, our pullback on so many aspects of our, you know, intelligence apparatus. I mean, we're doing a whole host of things that are part of this global retreat. And China is literally filling the vacuum and, and portraying itself as predictable, stable, Respecting the sovereignty of other countries and, you know, and lining its pocket with markets that, that we should be competing in.

[Zach]

Right. Yep.

[Host 2]

Well, I want to, I want to turn to back, back to domestic issues here because we only got a couple more minutes with you, but obviously we, you know, you mentioned earlier, and I think we all agree that most Americans don't want this. Donald Trump's numbers are abysmal. Some are in the mid-30s. We keep seeing over performances of all these special elections across the country. One in Texas, there was actually one in, well, shoot, Louisiana this weekend. That was a 38 point swing. A little House seat, state House seat. But so, so for the midterms this year, obviously things look pretty good for Democrats. But how concerned are you about there being? Because we get a lot of questions about this free and fair elections in November.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

I'm concerned.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

And I'm concerned because Trump is telling us, as he often does, what he aims to do. The effort at redistricting, the effort at trying to steal the voter rolls and the voter information from various states to extort Minnesota for its voter rolls, stealing the ballots from 2020 in Fulton county, you know, that wasn't about the 2020 election primarily. That's about trying to create doubt in the integrity of our elections and use that as an excuse to take over elections and jurisdictions, just as you said, nationalize the elections in some 15 places. Because I think they're fearful that they can't win in a free and fair election now. So what do we have to do about that? Doesn't mean we give up and say, okay, well, forget it. There's not going to be an election. We just, you know, we have to do two things at once. We've got to compete and win with the best candidates and the best policies that serve the American people. Working on and being committed to the things that people care about from affordability that lost, health care, you know, housing and rental costs way too high, electricity costs way too high, food prices still way too high. He's done nothing about any of that. And we've got to compete and win those elections and win them with big margins on the one hand. And at the same time, we need to see what it is he's trying to do, understand it as a critical threat and stand up through the courts, on the streets, you know, and make sure that people have the opportunity to vote in security. It is illegal for ICE to be at polling stations. The law is explicit. You may not have armed military or other armed people within any proximity of a polling site. You know, if. If they try to do that, we got to defeat it, and we've got to defeat it in the courts and on the streets peacefully and help those who feel vulnerable, you know, to feel safe as they go to the polls. We've just got to. We've got to see what they're doing, not be naive about it, understand it, combat it, and at the same time, you know, do what we would normally do, but better than we would normally do it in fight and compete to win in these elections.

[Host 3]

Susan, I got a question. What the hell was Tulsi Gabbard doing in Georgia?

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

I have no idea.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Is there any good.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

I can tell you this. It's nothing. Nothing on the up and up. Nothing on the level, that's for sure.

[Host 2]

So when you are, you are in. I'm going to do this again like I did before. So we'll just go with the. With President Obama's term. When you were a national security advisor, which is not the same job that she has, but is in the same sphere, did President Obama ever ask you to go into a state and secure ballots from a previous election?

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

No, he never asked anybody on his national security team had anything to do with domestic elections or domestic policy for that matter.

[Zach]

Right.

[Host 2]

Well, Ambassador Susan Rice, thank you very much. I actually was saving one bit at the end because you won't remember this, but I will. But it turns out you're not such a bad basketball player. And I'm going to tell you, I was it. I was at the Interior Department in for five years and I was at the. Let's. Let's play. Was that what it was?

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Oh, it was a Title 9.

[Host 2]

Title 9. That's right. Title 9 event. And I actually spoke to you briefly. It was 15 years ago. I looked a lot different, but you have not bad jump shot.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Thank you. But guess what? Here's the real thing. This was the anniversary of Title IX event, right?

[Host 2]

Yep. That is. That is exactly what it was.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

You did it in the Interior Department. I remember this well. And I had with, I brought with me, I believe, both my daughter and my niece, Kiki Rice. And Kiki Rice was like, you know, tiny back then. She's now one of the best point guards in the nation and the starting point guard at ucla.

[Host 2]

Wow.

[Zach]

Awesome.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

And you know, a WNBA prospect. She's a senior and, you know, look her up. Kiki Rice at ucla.

[Host 2]

Did she get all of her skills from you?

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

She did not. She got them from her parents, which is why she's good.

[Host 2]

Well, it was it was. It was a fun event. And because Ken Salazar was a basketball player, I somehow was his basketball guy. And maybe on another episode, I'll tell all the stories about him, you know, trying to get Reggie Love, who is the President Obama's body guy, who played at Duke. He would bring him over sometimes when we were playing people. That's how competitive.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

He got to play over at Interior.

[Host 2]

I know. I. I actually, he played right before I started, and then he used to come with his girls in the winter, so I was the. I was the guy with the Secret Service walking them around. But it was on weekends, so I was. I missed my one opportunity. But I did get to play basketball at the White House one time. I guess that court's now been bulldozed over, but it was. It was a fun time.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

But that was actually one of the only atrocities that Obama committed, in my judgment, which was to turn the tennis court, because I'm also a major tennis player, that's my real sport, into a basketball court as well as a tennis court. So he put all those lines down that screwed up the tennis.

[Host 2]

That is true.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Should have just done what some other people might have done, which is just build a basketball court.

[Host 2]

That's true.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Have both.

[Host 2]

No, I know. Why not have both?

[Host 3]

Between the tennis court and the brown suit or the tan suit, I'm not sure how I feel, but I like the tennis.

[Host 2]

I thought it was nice, but the best.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

The basketball court on top of the tennis court was no bueno.

[Host 2]

Yeah, well. Well, I'm glad we ended with something good because obviously there's a lot of dark around, but, Ambassador, thank you very much for joining us. Where can people. Do you want to plug where people can follow you?

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

You know, I'm on Twitter at Ambassador Rice, and I'm, you know, on Instagram and substack as well.

[Zach]

Great.

[Host 2]

Well, everybody go follow. Thank you again. Thank you for all your contributions to this country. We really appreciate it, and hopefully I'll have you back soon.

[Ambassador Susan Rice]

Thanks, gentlemen. Good to be with you.

[Host 3]

Take care.