Rich (2:55)

Yeah, I mean, they actually made up stuff. Right. It came out yesterday that Stephen Miller apparently dictated Christy Gnome's original statements in which she referred to him as, I think, a domestic terrorist.

Luke (3:08)

Domestic terrorist.

Rich (3:09)

He was coming with a gun to an assassin, which then obviously turned out to not be true. He never pulled the gun. In fact, ICE had taken the gun from him before they shot him, I believe, 10 times. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.

Eliza Orleans (3:25)

No, I mean, it's, it's absolutely insane because I think what people don't realize is you have the absolute right to film law enforcement. It is your First Amendment right. Like you cannot, I mean, you certainly can't be executed for it. Even if you're committing a crime, allegedly, you can't be executed without due process and a trial and a conviction. And we don't even have the death penalty in most states. I mean, there's so, there's so few things that would require someone to be executed, but like these extrajudicial executions that they are committing out on the streets in public for not even committing a crime, it's just, it's beyond anything I can. Could possibly.

Tim (4:06)

Well, and they throw out the term domestic terrorist as if that's like an exception. So since you work in the legal field, could you just give us a quick legal definition of a domestic terrorist?

Eliza Orleans (4:20)

Oh, my gosh. The legal definition of domestic terrorist. It's like there, I mean, there is obviously like a complete, like.

Tim (4:30)

Sure.

Eliza Orleans (4:30)

Definition under the law as to what that means. I think, like the, you know, this is. I don't want to define it legally without having the legal definition in front of me because I'm worried that, like, I might misspeak and I don't want it to be incorrect in any way, but I do, you know, think that this. It's just completely ridiculous that they would even remotely call.

Tim (4:55)

Right, right.

Eliza Orleans (4:56)

Alex Prey, a domestic terrorist.

Rich (4:59)

Ted Kaczynski was a domestic terrorist. Timothy McVey was a domestic terrorist. Right. Doing action. And this is not legal, of course. And I know that's what you were, you know, you were trying to get the actual. But for me, as a non lawyer, it's like. No, it's okay. Like, also. Yeah. You're. You're also not a constitutional scholar, so, like, that's understandable. You wouldn't have this all memorized, but you have to, you have to be inciting some sort of terror. Right. Like, there has to be. And all he was doing. Was standing there with a camera, no gun, like a camera. And then actually, the other thing that is worth us mentioning, there was no protest there. Right? They.

Eliza Orleans (5:33)

They created that protest. It was. It was nine. There was no protest.

Tim (5:37)

And I should apologize because that, that question was a little tongue in cheek because there's no such thing as a domestic terrorist organization. There's a foreign terrorist organization. And that's a thing like they. They think that if they start calling us ISIS basically, or Al Qaeda, they tried to do it with antifa, that they could, like, create something from thin air. You can, obviously, you can. You can commit, you know, crimes that are. There's no way to. To circumvent the legal process in due process. So when I hear these, these dog whistle words, it's not really a dog whistle anymore, but when I hear these, these expressions like, oh, well, he's supporting domestic terrorism, it's like that. What are you talking about? Free speech? That's. That's what we're talking about. Free speech. Is supporting domestic terrorism now. So anyway.

Eliza Orleans (6:28)

Right. I mean, domestic terrorism, you know, it's like things that stem from, like, extremist ideological positions and are, you know, homegrown, not foreign, obviously. But the way that they're trying to classify people who are just standing up for their neighbors as domestic terrorists is ridiculous.

Tim (6:48)

Yeah.

Zach (6:49)

I actually have a sort of in the weeds question is more about Renee Good situation. And I was fighting with a Republican friend of mine about this and his. And this is a typical Republican thing when it comes to any sort of situation like this with, you know, any kind of law enforcement, he's like, well, she's impeding their ability to do their job. And I'm sitting there going, if I were the attorney for. I'd be like, what is her. How is she impeding this? She's blocking half the road and then waving people by like. So when you get into a courtroom and they obviously, they would make that argument of she was impeding their investigation. Would that actually hold up in court? Or is that like a Fox News talking point where in reality that would just get shot down in court?

Eliza Orleans (7:28)

Well, so, I mean, listen, even if she were impeding, obviously the penalty for impeding, I. E. Like, you know, there's a crime in New York that's called obstruction of governmental administration. Oga. It is a misdemeanor.

Rich (7:44)

It is.

Eliza Orleans (7:44)

It requires, like, the maximum punishment would be one year in jail. But most people who I've ever represented over 15 years of practice who've been charged with OGA have spent one night in jail for that crime. So OGA is something that they charge when they like, don't like what you're doing. You know, it's like disorderly conduct or disorderly behavior. These are not real crimes. These are crimes when you're like, you've annoyed a police officer in some way. So if she were impeding, you know, they're still, they can't shoot her in the face. Like that is.

Luke (8:18)

You don't get summarily executed for that.

Eliza Orleans (8:20)

Exactly.

Zach (8:21)

I mean it more in the realm of like, could, like, could what she did actually legally be defined as impeding? Because my argument to him was no, because in reality there was literally no imposition created in any way, shape or form. Cars could still get past her. Like, to me, it was like, legally she was not impeding anything just on that point. And that's because that's where they all stayed.

Luke (8:38)

All these, like, maybe traffic law. That's about it.

Eliza Orleans (8:40)

But also that's, you know, that's a question of fact. That would be one for a jury. So like, let's say they did charge her with, you know, blocking traffic, obstruction, impeding, whatever, whatever the crime, the local crime in Minnesota were. If they charged her with that, that would still be something that the prosecution would have to present to, to a jury.

Rich (8:58)

Right.

Eliza Orleans (8:59)

And prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was impeding. And her lawyer would have the opportunity to say no, but look, here's video. They could get around her. She was not in fact impeding. But this becomes a question of fact. And, and there's no opportunity for a trial when they are shooting her in the right face.

Zach (9:14)

Yeah.

Rich (9:16)

And then I assume because you were, you've been a public defender in, in Manhattan for a long time, you've dealt with shooting cases and gun charges and things like that. So in this particular case with Renee. Good. I mean, from us, the non lawyers, you know, you're looking at this and being like, where on earth was his life at risk? And my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is for every shot you fire as a law enforcement officer, you have, your life has to be at risk during. Yeah, all of it. Each shot. Is that correct?

Eliza Orleans (9:47)

Well, yes, but also, I mean, I don't think his life was ever risked during a single one of these shots.

Tim (9:54)

For the first shot to be ill or to, to be legal, and then the second shot and the third shot and the fourth shot or whatever to be illegal.

Eliza Orleans (10:00)

Well, I guess so, but I, I mean, I just think it's like, I Almost think that we're validating something like by even entertaining position is validating. Like that officer, there was no position ever for his life.

Rich (10:14)

Right, Right. Ever.

Eliza Orleans (10:16)

Well, this one minute. Not during the first shot, not during the third shot. Not. You know, there are, Listen, in some states, there are things like, you know, we have, We've. We've probably. You've probably heard discussions about things like stand your ground laws, Castle doctrine. Castle doctrine, sure. But in New York and also in Minnesota, there's what's called the duty to retreat. We don't have. You can't. In New York, you cannot. Even if your life is at risk, you can't just kill someone who is approaching you. And that applies to everyone because you have a duty to retreat. So if there is space behind you, if you can run, you can't, you know, attack. And so, you know, this is something that's like, not even. It's like lethal force was never necessary.

Rich (11:02)

Right.

Eliza Orleans (11:02)

In the case of Renee Good, you know, no reasonable officer with the same facts would ever have been able to.

Rich (11:09)

Right.

Eliza Orleans (11:09)

To, you know, she was shot while she was driving away. Like, this is, you know, deadly force is extremely difficult to justify legally. And you can never use it against a fleeing person unless they pose an ongoing and immediate threat, which, like, there's no question.

Tim (11:25)

Something that to me is really interesting because, you know, people forget, they think, well, like, oh, he'll Trump will just pardon everybody. Every state has their own laws, and murder is a state charge. There's no, I don't even know if there is a federal murder charge unless you murdered, like a federal agent or something like that. But if you kill a person in a state, you're subject to the, the criminal law of that state. And so. And there's no, there's no statute of limitations for murder. I think probably in any state, certainly not in Minnesota. These ICE agents, they.

Eliza Orleans (11:59)

Right.

Tim (12:00)

They will forever be accountable to their crimes. And if they're determined at any point, even if it's in 2040 that they committed a crime in 2025 or 2026, they're fucked. You're. When it's. When it's a crime with no, with no statute of limitations.

Eliza Orleans (12:19)

I mean, I think this is such a great point, Rich, because this is something that I feel like so many people are missing. And I actually just posted a very, like, in depth kind of video and, and substack about this exact thing, which is a. That federal agents are not immune from state criminal law.

Tim (12:39)

Right.

Eliza Orleans (12:39)

If a federal officer unlawfully kills someone that can be murder, it can be manslaughter, it could be homicide, whatever you want to call it, negligent. I mean, there are so many different levels of killing people, but it is. Being a federal officer does not give you a license to kill. And they're subject to state homicide statutes and state assault laws and state reckless endangerment laws and state endangering the welfare of a child laws. I mean, all of that and law. Local prosecutors need to step up and prosecute them. And so, like, I know that there are nine DAs who have just signed on to say that they're going to do this. Like, you know, really brave, progressive DAs who are saying, you know, I'm not going to be intimidated. I'm going to, I'm going to prosecute. And Larry Krasner in Philadelphia, obviously, Mary Moriarty in Hennepin county, in, in Minnesota, and now seven others have joined them. And I hope more DAs will do.

Rich (13:27)

So.

Eliza Orleans (13:27)

And so I'm, you know, encouraging my audience and anyone listening to look up your local prosecutor and say, hey, if, if the ICE comes into our community, into our county to do these kinds of things, will you prosecute them?

Tim (13:39)

So, so I'm sorry, pressure them, because.

Luke (13:42)

The answer should be fucking yes.

Tim (13:43)

One quick follow up, because I'm confused because J.D. vance is a lawyer. He went to Yale Law from Yale Law School.

Eliza Orleans (13:52)

I know, right.

Tim (13:52)

He's a lawyer. And he said they have absolute immunity. And he, he sort of kind of walked it back by saying that. Nobody ever said that. But. So you're telling me that, that they don't have absolute immunity from all consequences?

Eliza Orleans (14:08)

I mean, first of all, there's no, no, there's no such thing as. Absolutely. I don't, I mean, it's. There. Are there. Okay, so there is something called qualified immunity, but that applies to civil lawsuits, not criminal prosecution. It doesn't protect against murder charges. You know, it's. I mean, what, what the. Is J.D. vance talking about? This is like, if he were right, which he's not, then what? Federal agents could just kill civilians and states could never prosecute? Like, it just makes no sense. And he is an embarrassment to Yale Law School and to lawyers everywhere.

Tim (14:47)

And, well, for so many reasons, he's.

Rich (14:49)

He'S, he's, he's an embarrassment to Americans in general. Right? I mean, like, yeah, I mean, we could also blame that. He blamed, he blamed undocumented immigrants for his mother's drug addiction. But she got, and this is not to knock how she became a drug addict, but she got her drugs at the hospital in which she worked. It was not fentanyl on the street. Like, this guy has no problem, like, changing a narrative to, to give him more power. So I'm not incredibly surprised that he did that. But another question for you on the legal side. So obviously those, those ICE officers who, who killed, well, all nine of these. Of these people, they are obviously liable in the prosecution, but what about the federal government, like, basically impeding the investigation of the state? Are there any, like, honestly, we know Donald Trump can't be because of this ridiculous Supreme Court ruling, but are Kristi Noem or I guess number two, Corey Lewandowski, which. Oh, my God, I don't really want to even talk about why he's there. So people could just go look it up himself themselves.

Eliza Orleans (15:54)

Go watch Barrett. Go watch Barrett Adair's.

Rich (15:56)

Yeah.

Eliza Orleans (15:57)

Video on it.

Rich (15:58)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So are they. Are, Are. Is it. Or Greg Bovino or any of these, you know, the, the wannabe SS officer, Are they. Is there a potential prosecution for them as well?

Eliza Orleans (16:11)

So, you know, for people who don't know what's going on, basically the Minnesota state officials who were trying to look into these, you know, these murders b. Said that they didn't have access to key evidence after these fatal shootings because the feds took control of these investigations and wouldn't share evidence with state prosecutors. And so, you know, this is playing out in the courts because essentially Mary Moriarty had to go to the courts. And I think this is also playing out in, in California where they're saying they're going to fight federal obstruction, but, but essentially they, they had to get a court order saying that they, Mary Moriarty filed a lawsuit against. It was dhs, ice, cbp, Christy Nome, and I guess Attorney General Pam Bondi, I think were the named parties basically saying that they wanted, they. They wanted the court to. To make a ruling to say that we have, we are entitled to, you know, you can't just take this evidence and hide it from us. We're entitled to hold our elected officials and appointed, you know, members of the federal government politically accountable. We are allowed to challenge this in court. We have, you know, all of this stuff. And it's just, it's insane that they're needing basically lawsuits, they're needing to file in court to get these. To get this evidence. But, yeah, the feds are actively hindering these state investigations, and it makes it extremely difficult for state prosecutors to get the truth. And so, yeah, you know, attorney state attorneys general, so like Keith Ellison in Minnesota, other folks have have said they're going to push back and they're going to litigate this in court if they have to. But it's really outrageous that they are actively hindering state investigations.

Rich (18:12)

Yeah. I talked to Keith Ellison last week, and for those, he's the, he's the AG Attorney General for Minnesota. And I asked him point blank, I'm like, have you heard anything from the administration at all? And he said, no, nothing. And I'm just trying to imagine a scenario in which the Biden administration or the Obama administration had a law enforcement event in, let's say, Alabama and the. Somebody lost their lives. What do you think these guys would have done? Right. Like, it's very obvious that this is a political play. This is, this isn't really even about protecting the ICE officers. It's protecting themselves politically. But I would actually argue this seems more dangerous for them than just handing these guys over. Because now Democrats can run in 26 and in 28 on prosecuting these people who murdered American civilians. It doesn't seem very wise politically. Right. Like, just get rid of it and move on. But I mean, we are also dealing.

Tim (19:12)

With the sharpest tool.

Eliza Orleans (19:15)

I mean, did you see what that.

Luke (19:16)

Motherfucker on the news did? He was like, if I hold my phone like this, it looks like a gun.

Rich (19:22)

Well, I was like, that was. What is his name?

Tim (19:26)

He.

Rich (19:26)

He's on Newsmax. He is a total joke.

Eliza Orleans (19:29)

It's a fuck.

Rich (19:30)

He did say that they got like, look at this. It looks like a gun. It's like. But that's completely irrelevant because he didn't do that. He was just going like, actually, I think he was in landscape just doing this. Like, these guys are just like, they're losing big. I mean, this is the problem for them, right? Like, the country is turning on them and they are in a lot of trouble politically and legally because the Democrats are already starting to draft articles of impeachment for Kristi Noem. This isn't going away before the election. Like, it's, it's, it's insane to me. And Trump's just like, oh, I'm gonna send, I'll send Greg, Greg Bevino home and I'll send Tom Homan, the guy who took $50,000 of cash on camera and we never saw it again. He is supposed to solve this problem. Like, he's of the same cloth as the rest of these guys.

Eliza Orleans (20:20)

Yeah. And you know what's unbelievable? So, like, you know, I, obviously, I'm a kind of an outlier because I do think I have pretty Extreme positions on law enforcement generally. But that's, you know, obviously comes from the experience of public defending for 15 years and like watching body worn camera, where I know that body worn camera doesn't stop abuses. And I literally have watched police officers who have their cameras on just beat the out of my clients just be completely abusive and just horrific. And, and so I acknowledge my biases. But I think what's unbelievable is that we are seeing cops, actual conservative Trump supporting cops say, hey, this is. We all know this is. This is not okay. You know, everyone knows you don't take a shot like that, especially when the person's on the ground, like, law enforcement is turning on the MAGA movement. Like, that is mind boggling to me that I would ever be on the same side as police officers and the NRA and, you know, second Amendment. I mean, it's all like, that is the shift that's happening. Like, Trump made that crazy statement about people possessing guns on the street, knowing.

Luke (21:33)

The left is going to get the guns.

Rich (21:36)

Well, it's so crazy because I have. I would say I'm very left when it comes to guns. I worked at every town I like. I've never owned a gun. I had a BB gun when I was little. That was about it. So for me, like, when I saw that the nra, I mean, it was kind of weak. But like, they did say, no, you have the right to carry. I mean, it depends on the state, depends on the law. But like in Minnesota, for example, he didn't, like, Alex didn't do anything illegal. He had a concealed carry permit. He was allowed to have it. He didn't brandish it. Like, none of it. Like, they only discovered it because they basically beat the shit out of him and threw him on the ground. And you can even see them take it away from him. And then they start shooting him with his hands on the ground. Like, well, they were. Well, they. Well, they sprayed him and they beat him with it. There was even a Minnesota. Like, I don't remember the name of the organization, but like, they were like, looking at the footage. He didn't do anything wrong. So it is very, very strange to me to be like, I'm glad the NRA and gun groups stood up because generally I don't really believe in those rights. But, like, that is the law of the land. So, like, you can't have Kyle Rittenhouse on one side with an AR15 crossing state lines, which is a crime, and then murdering two people. And you're like, good on him. And we're going to make him like a right wing star, which is essentially what they've done. And this guy who doesn't even pull his gun out, well, he deserved it because he was, he was going to a protest to incite violence. It's like crazy. Yeah, go ahead.

Luke (23:05)

The crazy thing is if they look back like six months or more like a year now. There was a protest in April where a piece of shit in Ohio got the shit beat out of him because he was yelling at some like he was grabbing female protesters. And a guy came over and headbutted the fuck out of him. And he ran back to his truck and got his AR15 out and came running through the crowd and the cops arrested him and then let him go. If we were in the same spot, they should have blasted his dumb ass because that would be the same. That would be equivalent. But they don't want to talk about that.

Rich (23:32)

It's actually worse, right? It's worse. Like, yeah, because there would have been more. I'm not saying it would have been justified, but like, you know, brandish, depending on where you are, brandishing an AR15 can be a threatening action compared to this dude who's just had it in the back, in a holster in the like back of his pants. Right. He never touched.

Tim (23:49)

How can you get beat in the face and you don't touch your weapon? I mean, that guy had restraint that anyway.

Rich (23:55)

Well, I think a lot of stories about that.

Eliza Orleans (23:58)

Yeah, no kidding. But no, I think. But it's crazy when the NRA and civil rights lawyers agree on something, you know, that there's a real issue here.

Rich (24:10)

Well, and then like, kind of what I was saying before, like, it's so short sighted. Right. Because there's going to be a Democratic president again and there's definitely going to be.

Eliza Orleans (24:20)

We hope so.

Rich (24:21)

I mean, I think so.

Eliza Orleans (24:22)

We hope we still have free and fair elections and that, you know, they're trying to use this to, I think, like, incite cite.

Tim (24:31)

Yeah.

Eliza Orleans (24:31)

You know, I've, I've talked a lot about Trump's desire to kind of use the Insurrection Act.

Rich (24:37)

Right.

Eliza Orleans (24:37)

In order to do all sorts of things. And so, like, it almost feels as though JD Vance saying they have absolute immunity. You, you know, he, he didn't think that, like, this is someone who's Yale law educated. He doesn't truly believe in his heart of hearts that, that they have absolute immunity. But he wants them to hear him say that because he wants them to go into the streets and act with impunity because they're like But JD told me I have absolute immunity because they are dumb and they are, you know, they're these like hyped up kind of wannabe bullies, whatever. They, and they're going to go out and do these things believing they have this immunity, which they don't have. And then it's going to give Trump the ability to say, okay, now I'm going to invoke the Insurrection Act. I'm going to, you know, we can't possibly, how are we going to possibly have elections if this situation, if there's actual civil war going on in this country? You know, that's severe.

Rich (25:34)

Did you see the video that came out yesterday of a, I think it was a woman was recording an ICE officer in his car. And he said something, I'm gonna, maybe one of you guys will get it better than me. But like, I think he was like.

Luke (25:45)

If you raise your voice, I'm going to erase your voice.

Rich (25:48)

Right, right. To an American citizen, I'm going to erase your voice. It's like the guy two weeks ago after Renee Goode who went up to someone filming and said it didn't you guys learn from the other day? Like, these guys, it, like I see a lot of people calling them Call of Duty cosplay cowboys, but I, I, I don't think that's wrong. Like, they have, they have recruited, they've lowered their recruiting guidelines, right? Like these guys can't even like run. What, Luke, what was the, the mile was like, or mile and a half was like 15 minutes, which, or 17, which you could basically walk. If you really walked fast enough, you could do that. And they've lacked relaxed, all those. And they've got these MAGA cowboys signing up for their $50,000 bonus, which they're, and because the next president, I am saying, will be a Democrat. And they're gonna go nope. In that last year and they're gonna lose all of it. But it just seems so short sighted to me that they're playing this game because it's gonna flip and they're gonna lose their minds. Like I, I, and, and they'll never, they'll pretend like this never happened. Right? Like it's just like, what? No, this is different. Like it's just, it's just wild to me. Yeah, it's, it's, hopefully there will be.

Eliza Orleans (26:57)

Repercussions, you know, both politically and legally for everyone who has participated in this in any way.

Luke (27:08)

You know, abolish and prosecute.

Rich (27:10)

I tell you what, I, I think we all agree here, but I'll say it. I'm not supporting anybody that says, like, you know, that takes the, like, Gerald Ford position of, like, you know, moving on from crimes. I am not going to move on from this. Like, I don't think that. That the. The base of the party and the left and the center of the party are going to just go, oh, let's just move on and go back. Like, I am not interested in that at all.

Luke (27:35)

We're not going back to brunch.

Tim (27:38)

Had made a career, an entire life of being, like, persecuted as the victim. And so he had his. He had his grievance response dialed in the witch hunt stuff. Like, he's very good at being the victim all of the time, despite being, like, a billionaire nepo baby, who's now, you know, a crypto billionaire nepo baby. I don't think anyone else, like, so many things with Trump, I don't think anyone else can pull that off the same way. You know, if J.D. vance or, like, who's like Marco Rubio, if they try to do the whole. The whole victim thing as we are seeking justice, where they. Where they just call everything a witch hunt, I just don't think it's going to land like, we've. They cried wolf. They played that card already so many times, and Trump got away with it. But I don't think the rest of these people will. I think that when we come after them with the Justice Department, I think people expect conviction. And I mean that, like, conviction behind the movement, but also actual convictions and actual. And I. And I don't think that we will have that loud voice of, like, well, now is the time for healing. And, you know, we've had enough divisiveness. Like, no, you guys gave us the divisiveness. And I think, more importantly, it's only been in the last year that I've heard people say things like, this is happening because we never sufficiently punished the South. Like, I think we understand that when we don't tie it off, those people, they just come back in a different way. That's why the KKK exists, because we never punished the South. Like, we. We never really punished the South. Um, we need to learn that lesson and let it stick and actually. And actually tie this shit off so these people don't keep coming back and saying, look, I was, like, vindicated.

Eliza Orleans (29:23)

I mean, I think it's kind of like what. What folks say, like a kind of analogy is you don't heal a wound just by covering it up, right? You have to clean it out first.

Luke (29:34)

There's Some debridement that needs to go on.

Eliza Orleans (29:36)

Exactly. Exactly. And that's what, like prosecution. Exactly.

Tim (29:43)

What would that be?

Rich (29:44)

Well, I think it was. I think it was our. Our. Well, I think it was our friend Elizabeth Booker that said, stop calling these guys Nazis and start calling them Confederates. Because actually the Nazis learned a lot from the Confederate approach to guerrilla warfare and cruelty and all these things. And it fits. You know, I think we. The. I mean, the Civil War wasn't that long ago, when you really think about it. I mean, we all.

Tim (30:09)

Less than 100 years before World War II.

Rich (30:12)

At least. Rich and I at least were. I mean, there were Civil War widows in our lifetime. Like big age differences and stuff. It's not that long ago. Well, yes, yes, I probably. Yes. Thank you, Rich, for it wasn't me this time. Tim is all joke.

Tim (30:29)

Well, no, I mean, I think that's kind of mind blowing. Like, I know the dates roughly. Civil war was like 1865. Was it 6, right. 80, 61 to 65 or 2. You know, I mean, the Nazis started their in like really the teens to the 20s, but really in earnest in the 30s. Right. And certainly Hitler in the. In the. In the, like, I think late 20s and 30s. So he was 31. This is a hot 30, 80 years after the Civil War. They're like, let's do that. And it wasn't just the tactics, but it was also the. The systematic dehumanization of an entire group of people that then created the opportunity to expel them and treat them like animals and just, I mean, commit genocide and have nobody internally really care as long as they weren't subject to it. And now here we are less than, you know, a hundred years after that, and there's another. Then there's more people.

Luke (31:29)

I mean, first they came for the immigrants, and I spoke up because I read the rest of the poem.

Tim (31:36)

That's good.

Luke (31:37)

God damn it, that's so good.

Tim (31:40)

Well, that's the most Luke comment ever.

Rich (31:42)

On that note, I wanna. Yeah, we're gonna have to cut that clip and post it. That's perfect. So walk. So I think a lot of people are seeing these things and they're scared, as they should be. I understand that these are scary things. Can you just talk a little bit? I know it's a little different state by state, but, you know, if you find yourself in a situation where you're seeing something like this unfolding in your neighborhood, what are people's rights related to recording or. Or observing so that people can know, like, where the line is. And not to cross it.

Eliza Orleans (32:18)

Yeah. Well, first of all, I think what you just said about there being a lot of fear right now is completely accurate. There is so much fear. And fear is understandable, but I think fear is also what makes people vulnerable to giving up their rights. And I think knowledge is. And you don't need a lawyer to protect yourself. You just need to know a few things and a few rules, and you need to stick to them. And so I think that, you know, there's a huge gap between what people think ICE can do and what the law actually allows. And so, you know, that's why I talk so much about. About knowing your rights on my platforms. Like, I want people to understand that they have the right to remain silent. They have the right not to answer questions about their citizenship status, where they were born, where they're going, who they live with. You know, if you are being questioned, you can just say, I'm exercising my right to remain silent. I would like to speak to a lawyer. Silence is not suspicious. It is legal. And everyone, there's a reason why we have a Fifth Amendment right to remain silent, but you have to use it. And then, you know, in terms of. What we're seeing a lot online is this situation around the warrants. So basically, this secret ICE memo was leaked to Senator Blumenthal, which basically was directing ICE to enter homes with these administrative warrants without judicial warrants. And that is not legal, right.

Tim (33:50)

It.

Eliza Orleans (33:51)

If a warrant is not signed by a judge, it is not a valid warrant. You should not open your door. Don't let anyone into your home. Don't consent to searches of your home, your car, your phone, your bag, yourself. Just say, I do not consent to a search. Don't explain. You know, even if you're held, you do have the right to an attorney. Say, I would like to speak to an attorney. I will not speak to you without an attorney. You know all of that. And then, of course, you know, as you were saying, you have the right to film. Law enforcement, you have the right to film in public. You know, they can't actually. You can't obstruct. So, yes, there is this. This thing that people think, oh, well, am I obstructing? No. If you're standing a few feet away and you are filming, even if they don't like it, you are not obstructing. So you can always film. That is your First Amendment right. I think, like, you know, this is something that everybody should know. Everyone should share with their friends and family members, because this is how we fight back. Knowing your rights makes you more calm in these situations, and it also makes.

Tim (35:00)

It harder to abuse. If you're standing on the sidewalk and you're, and you're filming and they're coming through or they're, you know, you're both in a public space and you become in their way, do you have to legally move? Or, I mean, I would move personally, but are you legally required to move or, or they call that obstruction because you're in their way. Now, even if they charted a path directly through your chest.

Eliza Orleans (35:28)

I mean, listen, the, the law is that the limitation is you can't obstruct or interfere with agents performing their lawful duties, which means keeping a reasonable get out of their way and not stepping into their physical space. So, you know, I mean, I think if they start stepping into your space, obviously they're the ones doing it. You're not the one who's obstructing. But you should still probably step back just because we've now seen that they are executing people for.

Rich (36:01)

Right.

Eliza Orleans (36:01)

So like, the risks are obviously are very high here because we've seen how trigger happy they are. So, like, I would say, you know, it is your first amendment right to film. It is a very strong right. You can record law enforcement officers conducting their duties in public. Like you have an absolute right to do so. But it does come with a caveat of not interfering. So, you know, you have to stay safe, keep a safe distance. Don't like physically. Yeah.

Luke (36:31)

I was going to point out.

Rich (36:33)

If.

Luke (36:33)

You'Ve got an iPhone, you can optically zoom within four times. You could be pretty far away and still be able to see a lot. Yeah, you don't have to be right up on them.

Rich (36:44)

Well, and I, you know, I think we've seen the videos. Like, you know, Alex Preddy was not impeding in any investigation whatsoever. They went up.

Tim (36:51)

Well, he was trying to help somebody.

Rich (36:52)

And they put their hands on him.

Tim (36:54)

Pulled him off of her so they could shoot him, beat the shit out of him. Sort of related follow up question. I know there's a lot of nuance in, in immigration law and with these administrative warrants and judicial warrants, but I'm thinking about Liam Ramos and his situation. So just to recap so I have the facts straight, he, his, his dad drove him home from, I believe it was daycare in the driveway of their, of their house, I think, not on the street in their driveway. He, the dad was pulled out of the vehicle. The son was, Liam was in the vehicle. The ICE Agents, they say that they walked him up to the door to see if his mother would take custody of him. They said that they assured her that they wouldn't detain her if she came out and took custody of Liam, Which. Whether you trust that or not. So that's. One question is, can they lie legally? And then the other question is she didn't come out because her husband was screaming from the street, don't open the door. Don't open the door. Don't open the door. So his. His pregnant wife is watching through the window with the door shut. There's other adults in the house. They're on their own property, and she didn't open the door and, And. And take Liam in or come out to take custody of Liam and bring him back in, because she obviously didn't trust. Neither of them trusted the scenario. So what if you can answer, what could they have done that would have been legal? Like, can I slie and then detain her anyway? Or could she have come out and taken her son and brought him back in If. If we had all known, you know, if people on site had known. Known their exact rights.

Eliza Orleans (38:48)

So this is a great question because I, I talk a lot about the fact that the police can legally lie to you and that court cases have affirmed that, that there is almost no limit to the amount that the cops can lie to you in the course of an interrogation or an investigation or questioning a suspect. So, for example, you're in custody, you're suspected of a crime. They tell you, well, we have your fingerprints. We just got the. The weapon back, and your fingerprints are on them. Or your co conspirator, your. Your buddy who you were arrested with already confessed and placed you there too. They. They can say, oh, your dying mother said that. She just wants you to admit that. I mean, they can basically say almost anything to try to get you to confess to a crime. Okay, so I want to say that up front because the fact that we know that the cops can lie to you makes it seem like, okay, so, so then did ICE do anything wrong? Did they. Did they do anything wrong by lying to try to get into the home without a warrant? That is not legal. They cannot lie to get into your home without a warrant. They can't use deceptive practices. You know, consent has to be voluntary, it has to be informed, and it has to be not based in deception about legal authority. So they also can't use deception to coerce a parent through a child. So using a child as leverage or bait, I think quite clearly is, you know, coercive and a due process violation. And also in Liam's case, I just want to be clear, because people say, well, his parents shouldn't have come here illegally. There was no illegality. This is. It is always legal to seek asylum. They were asylum seekers. They had an active case going on. There was no deportation order. There was no emergency. There was another caregiver available. Like, it is so egregious what they did. In Liam's case, this five year old with his little spider man backpack. I mean, I was like crying over. I. I just. It's unbelievable how. How just despicable they are and, you know, how they're just. This abuse of power. Immigration enforcement does not overwhelm, you know, our constitutional protections. Like this is just unethical and unlawful, and it's ridiculous.

Rich (41:09)

And I think to add to the. To the absolute cruelty of this, they then sent them to Texas.

Eliza Orleans (41:16)

Yeah.

Rich (41:16)

From Minnesota. This five year old in a vehicle and his father.

Tim (41:20)

I think it was.

Rich (41:20)

And I don't.

Tim (41:21)

Vehicle. I think it was an 18 hour drive.

Eliza Orleans (41:23)

18 hour drive. Yeah.

Tim (41:25)

Yep.

Rich (41:25)

Like, imagine if you have or had a kid that is under 10 and, you know, sticking them in a car like that or a van or whatever. It's just the cruelty and it's the stuff that. I mean, I have a son roughly that age and, you know, you know, people listening. Just close your eyes and think about it for a second. Think about it. If it was your kid, what would you do? These people didn't do anything.

Tim (41:47)

They did everything right.

Rich (41:48)

And it's like. And for what?

Tim (41:51)

What.

Rich (41:51)

What. What are we. What is the problem that we are solving here? And the answer is they keep saying.

Tim (41:57)

Oh, they got to come here the right way. They did. They did. They did come the right way. They're in there. There was another case of a guy, too, who had been checking in with his immigration officer. He'd been meeting everything, and they just fucking took him. There is no right way, according to Stephen Miller. I mean, he's. He's the guy, I think, behind every single thing. And if Bovino's gone or, you know, demoted or reassigned, how fast can we get Stephen Miller out of the federal government? I feel like that would be 80 of all of our problems at this point, because it's all coming from his desired vision for this country. That is. That doesn't include about half of our federal laws and half of our Constitution. Right.

Rich (42:41)

Yes. I mean, I think that. I don't think you can impeach a special assistant to the to the President. So I don't think we can go down that road. But who, again, like, the Democrats, can run on investigating these guys? If we take back the House in. In November, we will have the Oversight Committee, which also gives us the opportunity to issue subpoenas. Now, they're going to ignore them, which they have. They did during the Biden administration. When the. When the House. But there can be criminal investigations. When. Well, they could do it with the House. And then if we have the presidency in 28, then you can get that Attorney General to launch. You know, probably appoint a special prosecutor or investigator, but, like, it has to happen. Like, not even say that. Not him. Do not put a judge in the charge of the. Of the. The AG's office. I'm sorry. I. I mean, I don't hate that. I also like Doug Jones, the guy who actually prosecuted the KKK in Alabama, but he's running for governor, and I do hope he wins, but that is going to be tough. But, you know, I think, again, we get back to this. Like, we have to make them pay for this. Like, I mean, at the end of the day. And that's why, like, November is so important. And even. I mean, there is an opportunity to get the Senate, too, especially with all this going on. I mean, Susan Collins cannot be happy in Maine.

Tim (44:01)

She's pretty concerned.

Rich (44:02)

Last time she can. Oh, yeah. I kid you not. She sent a letter to Kristi Noem asking her to pause. Or she used other soft language like dial down ice in. In Maine. I tell you what, Janet Mills and Greg Graham Platner have just been having a field day. Especially Janet got the governor, Janet Mills, because she stood up to him once before on the trans issues, and she was like, I'll see you in court. She beat him. So, like, I. It just seems like he's sealing. He's sealing her fate. And also, like, in Alaska, like, where Mary. I'm not gonna be able to say her last name. Petola is running. Like, Alaskans don't want their Second Amendment rights infringed. Like, all of this stuff just is putting more. I think, more seats at play here.

Eliza Orleans (44:52)

Because I have a friend who's moving to Alaska to. To work on Mary's campaign like this.

Rich (44:56)

Oh, that's great.

Eliza Orleans (44:57)

I know. I know they, like, really feel good about it. And I think, like, what, Tim, what you say is so important because I think there's a lot of hopelessness and pessimism right now, but it is huge. We've got 10 months, and we have to take Back the House. We need that subpoena power. We need those hearings, we need those documents. We need sworn testimony from these DHS and ICE officials. You know, oversight is not just like some high. Oh, just some random luxury. Oh, whatever. It doesn't mean anything. No, it actually means there's a power to investigate and then that can be used and, and for future accountability. So I think that matter. Matter so much. November elections matter so much. And I would encourage everyone listening to get involved locally or nationally. You know, find a race that matters to you and just, just take it on and decide that you're going to be part of that and spread the word because this is, you know, it's crucial.

Rich (45:55)

Well, and also the. You don't have to run for national office to make a difference either. Like local elections. There's a, there's an effect of, of, you know, if you're a local, you run for local city council or somebody and let's say, like, you have somebody who's kind of a casual voter, then you're like, on the ballot and they are like, lean, like, damn, like, and you're like, well, I'm running. He goes, I'll vote for you. Then you better believe he's going to check all the other D boxes after everything's going on. So it really matters. That's why we talk about run for something so much. If you're interested in running for office, you should go to runforsomething.net Amanda Lipman.

Eliza Orleans (46:26)

Panel with Amanda.

Rich (46:27)

Oh, great.

Eliza Orleans (46:27)

In a couple weeks. Yeah.

Rich (46:29)

Oh, she's great and they're great. And please donate to them. They need all the money we can give them. But, you know, I, I agree. And the other thing that's important about this is if we have control of the House and Senate in 26, they can hand over those documents to the theoretical next Democratic.

Eliza Orleans (46:44)

Exactly.

Rich (46:44)

Administration. So we're not starting from scratch. Right. We all know that the Merrick Garland stuff took way, way too long, and there's no time for that this time. Like, they have to move and they have to move quickly. What? We have only a couple of minutes left and then we have to bounce. But I can't let you leave Aliza without telling us how on earth you ended up on Survivor.

Eliza Orleans (47:08)

Okay, so for something. For a lighter topic.

Rich (47:11)

Yes. So.

Eliza Orleans (47:13)

So I, along with, I don't know, 30 million other Americans watched episode one of season one of Survivor. I was in high school at the time, and I watched with my family and I turned to my mom and I was like, I'm going to be on that show one day. And like any, you know, good Jewish mother, she was like, of course you are, sweetheart. You can do anything. Now she says, be careful what you tell your kids because they believe you. And so as soon as I turned 21, I sent an audition video. I got flown out to Los Angeles, interviewed with, you know, with executive producers, then with Les Moonvest with, like, the head of cbs. And. Yeah.

Tim (47:54)

And.

Eliza Orleans (47:54)

And then they cast me. My first time applying, So I was 21 years old. I got cast, you know, pretty, pretty early on and, and then did quite well. And so then a few years later when I was in law school and they called me and said, hey, you wanna, you wanna have another go at this? And I was like, another 1 in 20 shot at a million bucks. Yes, please. And so I went back on a second season called Fans vs Favorites, and I was a favorite.

Rich (48:16)

Oh, you were a favorite.

Eliza Orleans (48:17)

I was a favorite. And, you know, even though that did not turn out so I'm like, you know, multi time loser, I still had, you know, arguably one of the most memorable scenes in the history of Survivor. So, you know, my, My, my legacy lives on even though I, I never won.

Rich (48:38)

Do people still recognize you on the street?

Eliza Orleans (48:41)

Crazy enough?

Rich (48:42)

Yes.

Eliza Orleans (48:42)

And I would. I don't know if it's like, still or again because, like, there was a moment there where it kind of like dipped.

Rich (48:48)

Yeah.

Eliza Orleans (48:48)

But then during COVID it felt like all of a sudden everyone was trapped in their homes and all these people started catching up from the beginning and watching Survivor and I have kids come up to me and they're like, oh, my God, I'm a huge fan of yours. I'm like, you weren't alive when I was on the show. What do you mean? And they're like, no, but I watched all the seasons. I love you and I love to see. And it's so fun now because people will watch the show and obviously see me from decades ago and then find my social media and see what I'm like now. And they're like, oh, my God, I'm so glad that you're, like, on the right side of. There's a hilarious tweet out there that somebody was like, basically the opposite of don't meet your heroes. Because they're like, I thought Eliza was kind of annoying on the show, but now I look her up and she's like, on the right side of every issue and I love her and blah, blah, you know, so I'll take it.

Rich (49:37)

Well, we don't think you're annoying, so that's good. And you are on the right side of history, so we got a wrap. But where can people find you? Where do you want people to follow you?

Eliza Orleans (49:46)

So I am everywhere. You can find me. On Instagram, Eorlens, TikTok, for as long as that lasts. At Eliza Orleans. My YouTube channel is at Eliza Orleans. I'm on substack. The substack I write is called Objection Everything. I am on Blue sky, on threads, on. I'm literally everywhere. So I. And I use my full government name everywhere. Eliza Orleans. So you should be able to find me.

Tim (50:10)

Great.

Rich (50:10)

Well, everybody go.

Tim (50:11)

I mean, probably rich.

Rich (50:13)

Do you have.

Tim (50:15)

Okay, sure.

Rich (50:18)

Then you got to use it.

Tim (50:19)

Now, we need to set this up a little bit, because this is an important question. Regular or double stuff Oreos, Eliza?

Rich (50:28)

Oh, that's a good question.

Luke (50:30)

This. This is. This is recurring.

Eliza Orleans (50:32)

Oh, my gosh. That's. That is a. That's a tough question. I haven't had an Oreo in so long.

Luke (50:40)

I don't know how you've gotten through a year without any Oreos.

Rich (50:43)

Wait, wait.

Luke (50:43)

This year?

Rich (50:44)

Don't. Don't tip it. Don't tip it. There is a wrong answer.

Tim (50:49)

Tim knows it because it's his.

Luke (50:51)

So disappointed.

Eliza Orleans (50:52)

You know, it's funny, I.

Rich (50:54)

No, it's not.

Eliza Orleans (50:57)

I don't even. I couldn't even tell you the last time I had a double stuff Oreo. Like, I don't even know that I've ever had a double stuff. Like, I feel like a regular. Like, why did you mess with perfection?

Tim (51:06)

Thank you. What kind of a sociopath. Twice as much Crisco in the God.

Rich (51:11)

Or people who like the Crisco. The best part of it, too.

Eliza Orleans (51:16)

Like, you twist it open. You like, Right. You know, but you separate it, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Luke (51:21)

Oh, no.

Eliza Orleans (51:23)

Yeah, I separate.

Luke (51:24)

You gotta dump the whole thing into milk. Milk's favorite cookie.

Rich (51:28)

That's the whole point.

Eliza Orleans (51:28)

But like, dairy Milk.

Tim (51:30)

Ew.

Luke (51:30)

Oh, yeah.

Rich (51:33)

Rage again. Whole milk. Right.

Eliza Orleans (51:35)

Are you a Republican or something?

Luke (51:37)

I mean, I'm in a red state.

Eliza Orleans (51:39)

Drinks dairy milk 2 gallons a week.

Tim (51:41)

With double stuffed Oreos.

Rich (51:42)

I know. Hell, I don't know.

Luke (51:44)

My bones are strong, I'll have you know.

Rich (51:47)

Yeah. Caroline Lovett and the. Aren't they. Didn't they do a whole campaign like they're doing? Yeah, but they up her Photoshop.

Luke (51:53)

Oh, no, that was. That was Riley Gaines. They. They edited her, and then it was in a couple frames that.

Rich (51:58)

It was everyone's face.

Luke (51:59)

That's the original thing.

Rich (52:00)

Finisher. Yeah. Yeah. That's a whole thing. They're like, make whole milk great again. It's like it never went away. You could always. I would. I wouldn't drink it. We don't.

Luke (52:09)

I drink home.

Rich (52:09)

I don't. I don't drink it.

Eliza Orleans (52:10)

But no, I'm an oat milk.

Tim (52:11)

They think that whole milk is raw milk. Milk and Homer.

Luke (52:15)

Oh, I know you're a soy guy, Tim.

Rich (52:18)

Oh, I shouldn't have even said that.

Luke (52:20)

Soy boy.

Rich (52:20)

Yeah, we. At one point, we. I think it was. Rich. It was your idea. Because your idea was also called Find Out, I think was to call us the soy Boys. But that wasn't gonna really kind of ironically or adjust.

Tim (52:30)

But I don't. I think we made the right choice. That was my.

Luke (52:32)

I think so too.

Tim (52:34)

The podcast. Yeah, I got a podcast.

Rich (52:37)

I haven't been called that in a long time, to be honest.

Luke (52:39)

So, like, I get it once a day at least.

Eliza Orleans (52:42)

Well, you want soy boy.

Luke (52:43)

Soy boy.

Rich (52:45)

Yeah.

Eliza Orleans (52:45)

And you're like, I drink whole milk. That is that.

Luke (52:47)

I drink whole milk. Exactly.

Tim (52:49)

Trying to man up.

Luke (52:50)

Well, I've got enough calcium in my bones too.

Rich (52:54)

I think that was more than 45 seconds, rich. But.

Tim (52:56)

And we got. And we got the correct answer.

Eliza Orleans (52:59)

My answer took too long. But I. I just had to think about it.

Rich (53:03)

You're an attorney.

Luke (53:04)

You have to think about the answer.

Rich (53:07)

So. Well, everyone who's. Who, anyone, all three of you that are still listening, if you want to tell us if you're a double stuff or single stuff, you could put it in the comments. And, you know, hopefully tonight too.

Luke (53:18)

Tim.

Rich (53:18)

Oh, we'll do it. Yeah, we're doing. Oh, well, actually won't. This will be out after that, but every Wednesday we do a live show at 8:45 on YouTube, Facebook. We're gonna actually put it on subsect tonight. We'll see what happens. But. Oh, yeah, very, very risky stuff. But anyways, can you do all to.

Eliza Orleans (53:33)

Do you use obs? Do you do all to all of them? Oh, wow.

Rich (53:36)

Yeah, we use a thing called Restream, which now they should give it to me for free because I just said it. But yeah, it just connects. You've hit a bunch of buttons and it connects the accounts and you just go.

Tim (53:45)

So.

Rich (53:46)

Because you'll. Well, I. And actually, so people don't know. I always. Like, the last few weeks I've asked Eliza come on the lives, like literally like an hour before, because I am like, I'm really good at the guest management stuff. If you couldn't tell and, like, do you want to come on in an hour? She's like, why? I have plans or I'm out of town. It's like, fair. So I actually asked you yesterday, so I gave you, like, 12 hours of heads up instead of one. So I'm exactly. I'm getting better. But anyways, Eliza, Orleans, thank you very much. Everybody. Go follow wherever, buy our merch. I'm not gonna do our whole thing, but we do have an I do have a theog one on today, so you can go buy that@findoutpodcast.com Union Made in America and get a membership on our substack@find outpodcast.subsect.com and with that, everybody have a lovely weekend. Hopefully snow free this time, and we'll be back next week. Take care, everybody.