Why Graham Platner Needs to Drop Out

Summary

The Find Out Podcast

Host: Find Out Media & Studio71

Episode: "Why Graham Platner Needs to Drop Out"

Date: July 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles two major threads: a rapid-response discussion about explosive allegations against Democratic Senate candidate Graham Platner, and a rich, irreverent exploration of right-wing evangelicalism and Trumpism in America during Trump’s second term. The panel—primarily Host 1, Host 2 (Luke), and guest/guest co-host Tim Whitaker—take a no-nonsense, self-reflective leftist approach to current political chaos, MAGA absurdities, and the deeper entanglement of Christian nationalism with US politics and media. Their language is candid, at times profane, and always aimed at cutting through bullshit and echo chambers for their audience.

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Section 1: The Graham Platner Scandal & Aftermath

[01:42–17:35]

Key Discussion Points

• Breaking News & Credibility of Allegations

  • Politico details substantial accusations against Graham Platner of sexual assault, supported by contemporaneous texts from 2021 and specific incident details.
    • "She has texts from 2021... The level of detail that she is providing is substantial. Tremendous. So substantial." (Host 1, 01:45)
    • The accuser struggled to speak out because she supports Platner's politics but insists "too many men rely on the silence of women." (Host 2 quoting accuser, 03:05)
  • Both hosts, previously Platner supporters for strategic reasons (beating Susan Collins), publicly disavow him.
  • Denunciation of hypocrisy among leftists defending Platner while condemning Trump for sexual violence.
    • "If you've ever said a goddamn word about Donald Trump being a rapist... you have fucking zero business to be defending Graham Platner right now." (Host 2, 03:20)
    • "There comes a time that you have to be about it." (Host 2, 04:17)

• Rejection of Conspiracy Theories & Anti-Semitic Dogwhistles

  • Refuting leftist claims that APAC/“the Jews” are behind the smear.
  • “APAC money did not sexually abuse this woman.” (Host 1, 04:37)
  • “You are dog whistling anti-Semitism by blaming Graham Platner’s actions on people who had nothing to do with it.” (Host 1, 05:33)

• On Political Calculation vs. Moral Compass

  • Condemning the temptation to set aside accusations because Platner is "our guy" against Susan Collins.
  • Drawing devastating parallels to MAGA defenses of Trump:
    • "There is zero difference in saying, okay, a woman says that he raped her, but he wants universal health care. That is the same thing. It is a mirror." (Host 2, 06:13)
  • Reflecting on the message sent to women.
    • "This signals to women that it’s not even safe on our side." (Host 1, 06:29)

• Critique of Stephen King and Prominent Supporters

  • Special callout to Stephen King for defending Platner's candidacy:
    • "A former hero of mine, Stephen King ... Fuck you, Mr. King. I don’t know that that is a fucking cop out." (Host 2, 08:39)
  • Stressing the broader stakes for Maine’s politics and Democrats nationally if Platner stays in.

• Replacement Candidates for Platner

  • Discussing likely/possible Democratic replacements:
    • Dan Cleban (Main Beer Company, progressive small business)
    • Troy Jackson (northern Maine lumber industry, strong accent)
    • Heather Cox Richardson (historian, married to a lobsterman, unlikely)
    • Nirav Shah (former Maine CDC director)
  • Warning about the dangers of not fully vetting candidates—Platner's past was an open secret for many.
    • "A complicated relationship with the truth and ability, in addition to his complicated relationship with consent." (Host 2, 15:49)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Moral Outcry
  • "No, I am not going to turn a blind eye to sexual assault, because if we do that, then no one will ever believe women ever again." (Host 1, 08:18)
• Political Forecast
  • "If he stays in the race, he will get obliterated." (Host 1, 09:41)
  • "He will lose, and it won't be close." (Host 2, 09:41)
• Personal Reckoning
  • "After today we kind of looked at each other, uh, and we’re like, nope, that’s it. Can’t." (Host 1, 17:17)

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Section 2: Evangelicalism, Christian Nationalism, and Political Identity

[19:13–44:15]

Key Discussion Points

• Introduction: Tim Whitaker and New Evangelicals

  • Tim describes his background: "I grew up in like in a very conservative evangelical Christian cult as a whole...in the church world that has given us Trump." (Tim Whitaker, 19:29)

• Trump’s July 4th Speech and the Alt-Right Media Bubble

  • Host 2 notes that snippets of Trump’s speech seemed "presidential," but quickly pivoted to violent, conspiratorial rhetoric.
    • "Chunks of it were actually presidential sounding...and then he starts talking about how communists are the greatest threat to this country" (Host 2, 20:19)
  • Debunking viral right-wing panic about birthright citizenship and "great replacement" conspiracies.
    • "It’s a continuation of the great replacement theory that we’ve been hearing for years now." (Tim Whitaker, 22:09)
    • "[Evangelicals] treat the Constitution and the Bible the same way—word-for-word literalism when convenient, loose interpretation elsewhere." (Tim Whitaker, 26:22)

• The Evangelical Parallel Universe: Alternative Media and Socialization

  • Description of insular religious bubbles where outside information is feared and community is inextricable from belief.
    • "It’s like living in a basement...these people give you the interpretation of the outside world." (Tim Whitaker, 27:49)
  • Vivid example: Vacation Bible School in churches encouraging children to enact violence against 'the devil' with toy guns on stage; pastor defends the practice as doctrinal.
    • "The people who tell you the gays are grooming children will then allow their kids to...reenact and watch a live execution and they participate in it." (Tim Whitaker, 30:15)
    • "There is a lot of language about putting on the armor of God...In Revelation, the Jesus that comes back...is a violent, bloody Jesus where his garment is soaked in the blood of his enemies." (Tim Whitaker, 31:33)

• Why Leaving Fundamentalism is So Hard

  • "It's all you know...your community is down there...your people, your tribe, your inside jokes, all of your culture is formed around this thing. So if you leave, where are you gonna go?" (Tim Whitaker, 39:02)
  • Leaving is not just an ideological journey but a radical break from belonging and security.

• How Change Actually Happens

  • "What didn’t change me was being called a bigoted asshole online...It was people who I knew in person who were curious, people themselves and asked me questions." (Tim Whitaker, 43:50)
  • Respectful conversation, curiosity, and direct relationships—not public shaming—move people out of the bubble.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Evangelical Morality & Political Utility
  • "There is nothing worse than a Democrat in power. Doesn't matter if they have a D in front of their name—you're better off voting for Satan." (Tim Whitaker, 55:34)
• “Moving the Goalposts” Syndrome
  • "They always move the issue...You mention abortion, they pivot to immigration, you challenge that, they go to law and order, you mention criminality, it's morality, then you say Trump's a rapist, and there's always another one." (Host 2 & Tim Whitaker, 56:27–56:36)

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Section 3: Media, Messaging, and the Left’s Structural Challenges

[58:52–69:07]

Key Discussion Points

• Democratic Messaging and Institutional Failure

  • Brutal takedown of Democrats’ inability to connect using modern media: “Almost everything they post is cringe.” (Host 2, 59:05)
  • Structural critique: Democratic donors and leadership stuck in old models (print, email blasts), not investing in media ecosystems or digital-first approaches.
    • "I spent years fundraising and trying to convince especially more white progressive Christians who were more established, you need to fund new media. I had conversations with people in that space who told me they're really mostly interested still in print. They still believe in magazines." (Tim Whitaker, 64:32)

• Echo Chamber/Alternative Media Ecosystems

  • Conservative billionaires have easily and effectively funded right-wing mass media and social media projects—PragerU, Daily Wire, Turning Point USA, etc.—moving culture at scale.
    • "Turning Point USA brought in 80 million for like the first over a decade...look how effective they are with 80 million." (Host 1, 63:24)

• Call to Action

  • Urges for new left-wing media infrastructure for every ideological slice, including Christian leftists, to break the right’s grip on narrative.
    • "We need an alternative that presents better narratives for all people, not just for some...that also has a faith element." (Tim Whitaker, 60:56)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• "Just fund it. We don’t need a lot of money, guys." (Tim Whitaker, 67:57)
• On why the left lags:
  • "We're always behind, and I don't know why...You have, in my opinion, better properties...better characters, and you keep fucking it up. That's how I feel about Democratic Party." (Tim Whitaker, 65:47, drawing a Marvel v. DC analogy)

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Section 4: One-to-One Change and How to Win

[69:07–End]

Key Discussion Points

• Emphasis on Relationships and Conversations

  • “These aren't going to be like, we're not going to release an ad that switches 5 million people's minds. It's conversations with friends. It's conversations with family. It's like pointing out the things, but in a respectful way and not saying, hey, you idiot. Like, don't do that.” (Host 1, 69:39)

• Platform Plugs and Community Growth

  • Encouragement to follow, support, and join memberships—highlighting the grassroots, small-donor model as foundational.
  • Tim Whitaker’s links: “Tim Whitaker Speaks” (YouTube, Substack, Instagram, Threads)

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Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• "[Too many men] rely on the silence of women." – Platner’s accuser, quoted by Host 2 (03:05)
• "If you've ever said a goddamn word about Donald Trump being a rapist...you have fucking zero business to be defending Graham Platner right now." – Host 2 (03:20)
• "This signals to women that it’s not even safe on our side." – Host 1 (06:29)
• "I need to issue an extra special fuck you to a hero of mine, a former hero of mine, Stephen King..." – Host 2 (08:39)
• "There is zero difference in saying, okay, a woman says that he raped her, but he wants universal health care. That is the same thing. It is a mirror." – Host 2 (06:13)
• "The Democratic establishment is just so out of touch in so many different ways, in my opinion." – Tim Whitaker (59:08)
• "I'm not going to turn a blind eye to sexual assault, because if we do that, then no one will ever believe women ever again." – Host 1 (08:18)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Platner Allegations & Leftist Accountability: [01:42–17:35]
• Evangelicals & Christian Nationalism Primer: [19:13–44:15]
• Leaving Fundamentalism—Why & How: [38:39–44:15]
• Fixing Left Media & Digital Infrastructure: [58:52–69:07]
• Personal Advocacy & Final Thoughts: [69:07–End]

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Overall Tone and Takeaway

The Find Out Podcast in this episode is raw, urgent, and introspective, placing their own side under the same ethical scrutiny they demand of Republicans. The conversation moves seamlessly from the practical realities of politics (nominations, polling, public trust) to deeper analysis of information bubbles, religious identity, and how the right mastered both propaganda and digital media. The call is for the left to do better—by funding storytellers and institutions, honoring their values without hypocrisy, and winning one respectful conversation at a time.

"We are here to separate the signal from the noise—no echo chambers, no bullshit."

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[Host 2 (Luke)]

I'm currently drenched in sweat and really fucking mad.

[Host 1]

I already took my sleep gummies. But we figured we had to come back. We have a whole show with Tim Whitaker talking a lot about right wing, right wing evangelical Christianity and MAGA and all this are really interesting. But we gotta talk about the big news of the day which is these newest allegations against Graham Platner where a woman and imu, these are my words, is credibly accusing Graham of sexual assault. There is an article in Politico and I know a lot of people don't like Politico. I recommend you go look at it and look at her quotes because we've read this and she has texts from 2021 where she texted a friend and said this happened her. The level of detail that she is providing is substantial. Tremendous. So substantial. She even talks about this pin cushion falling off the. Off the table as he bought, as he like crashed through because he was, he was drunk. Close the blackout drunk as she referred to it. And then she still struggled with telling this story because she hates Susan Collins and wants her to lose. And so she didn't want to damage Graham's politics, and she agrees with Graham's politics, but she also felt that people needed to hear about the real Graham, which I think is.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

I think the quote she used is that too many men rely on the

[Host 1]

silence of women 100%. And you and I supported Graham. You and I no longer support. Support Graham. What are your. What are your. What are your. Well, you're already starting, so you go ahead. What do you think?

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Mostly what I think is that the people that are online defending him while at the same time talk that have been vocal anti Trumpers since 2016 are fucking hypocrites, because if you've ever said a goddamn word about Donald Trump being a rapist and Donald Trump talking about how he likes to grab women by the pussy, you have fucking zero business to be defending Graham Platner right now.

[Tim Whitaker]

100%.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

This is not the first thing that has come out about him. This is not even the first accusation of sexual violence or violence against women. This is like the third time there's been something like that.

[Host 1]

Right. And not to mention the tattoo and the. The comments on message boards and things like that. And look, like everyone knows I'm from Bane. And I understand how hard. We understand how hard it is to beat Susan Collins. And so I think we did a little bit of what some people are still doing, though we stopped doing it, which is say, yeah, there's stuff in his past, but he's an exciting talent, and I think he's got a real shot. And we're just gonna, like, kind of turn a blind eye eventually.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

If you're. If you call yourself an ally and you say you believe women, there comes a time that you have to be about it.

[Host 1]

Right? And you can't believe women when it's convenient.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

No. You can't say, I hate rapists, except when it's, you know, somebody who's credibly accused of rape, and I really want him to win in the Senate. That's not how this works.

[Host 1]

You don't get to do that. No. And. And we have. We have seen a lot of people do this today or even say, I. I had a multiple people, one. A few people from Maine. And I see it online, people saying, oh, well, this is Apex doing. And let me be clear. I do not like apac. I do not like people who take APAC money. APAC money did not sexually abuse this woman. I'm sorry.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

It didn't in 2023. It was.

[Host 1]

No, no. Nope. 2021. This has been five years.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

2023 is when she texted her next romantic partner and detailed, oh, I see.

[Host 1]

I see.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Or no, not. Not an extra romantic partner. Her friend who was considering setting someone up with Platner.

[Host 1]

Oh, okay, okay, okay. Yeah, so. But that was still three years ago. And look like when people say that there is some anti Semitism on the left, it's. This stuff is what you're fucking close there, right?

[Host 2 (Luke)]

When every time something bad happens, you say, oh, it's. It's the Jews and it's apac. You're getting pretty close, right?

[Host 1]

And then people are like, oh, no, it's not about the Jews. It's just about apac. It's like you are dog whistling anti Semitism by blaming Graham Platner's actions on people who had nothing to do with it. And I want to be very clear. Maine has a tiny Jewish population. Tiny. It exists, it's tiny.

[Narrator/Advertiser 2]

It gets.

[Host 1]

It's bigger in Portland, but that's about it. Like, AIPAC had nothing to do with this. And I think that this, this, this thing about us kind of mimicking a lot of the MAGA stuff, in case with like, defend and defend and defend, no matter what makes us know better. Like, we have to stand on our values.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

How many times have you heard people justify, oh, he said he likes to grab him by the pussy, but also he wants to get rid of the illegals, just like me. There is zero difference in saying, okay, a woman says that he raped her, but he wants universal health care. That is the same thing. It is a mirror.

[Host 1]

Right? 100%. And I think we have to get serious about this. And, you know, and I think, like, we've had the MeToo movement, we've had all these things. Our side rightly talks about needing to treat women better and treat them with respect. And this, this action of some people, some, I don't think it's the majority. I just think it's a. I think it's a. There's some minority and they're vocal. This, this signals to women that it's not even safe on our side.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Yeah, I can't imagine why that woman would be questionable about coming out when this has been the response. People telling her she's lying, talking about, check her bank account.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Can't imagine why, why women don't want to speak out about what's happened to him.

[Host 1]

Well, here's the other thing that, that goes completely against this conspiracy theory that like the Republicans were behind this or they did this deliberately. If they did this deliberately, Republicans, why would they do it 10 days when they're still. There is still time to replace. Excuse me, to replace Graham? Why wouldn't you do it on the 11th day when you're stuck? There's no benefit. This is not politically advantageous to Republicans. I mean, him dropping is politically advantage advantageous. I mean, timing doesn't.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

It's kind of a wash because, like, after the last set of accusations and terrible things, when the DNC said, hey, is there anything else we need to know about? He said, nope. And then there was clearly more that they needed to know about. But even then, the polling was within margin of error. After that, it was, you know, he was leading by 2%. That's not exactly the lead that he started with.

[Host 1]

No, he was. I mean, he, he was hanging by a thread with women as of today. And with this, like, the floodgates are going to open.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

So we've seen a certain point when it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it's a fucking duck.

[Host 1]

Right? And look, I get it, like, it's painful. He is a unique political talent. There is no doubt about it. But there is a line for all of us that we should not be crossing. And I'm sorry, but no, I am not going to turn a blind eye to sexual assault, because if we do that, then no one will ever believe women ever again.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

And I need to issue an extra special fuck you to a hero of mine, a former hero of mine, Stephen King, who in the last two hours has come out repeatedly saying that Graham does not, should not drop out and that if everybody in Congress, if we all knew what really happened there, there would be nobody in there. So let the first. He is without sin. Throw the first stone. Fuck you, Mr. King. I don't know that that is a fucking cop out.

[Host 1]

I mean, he said some. A few problematic things lately. And, and that, by the way, for people who don't know, he is like Mr. Maine, we don't have a lot.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Yeah, I know. He's. I mean, that's the whole thing.

[Host 1]

Yeah, a second district, Bangor. But no, I'm sorry, but, like, we're not supposed to be stooping to their level, which is sort of like what they're saying. There are other people and, you know, like, if we lose our moral compass, how are we any better than them? We're not. So I understand that people are upset because, like, the Senate kind of depends on Maine for Democrats. But, like, if he stays in the race, he will get obliterated.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

He will lose. He will lose, and it won't be close.

[Host 1]

And he'll drag down Hannah Pingree, who is the nominee for governor, with her, and it will return Maine, and they forget about the second district. Pingree will be fine in the first District, but, like, you will basically turn Maine red. And the guy, the governor, the gubernatorial candidate for Republicans is. Is Paul LePage on steroids. And it is another MAGA. So, like, we have to think about all these races. It's not just about the Senate. We cannot let a Republican take over Maine because the more states that the Republicans control in 2028, the harder it is to ensure that the ballots will be. Will be counted correctly. So this. We have to think broader than this one thing. But we also. Why would anybody trust us? This is the thing. Like, if you were talking about trying to move independence or whatever, like, if they. There's already this.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

We can't get the rapists out of our own party.

[Host 1]

Right.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Why should anybody think we're any different?

[Host 1]

Right? And I think, like, you know, we. We helped Graham a little bit after the tattoo to give him a platform and stuff. And, you know, we were still a little uneasy about it, but it's like, look, he was drunk in the 30s in the military with a Croatia tattoo artist was probably trying to screw with him. Whatever. We can, like, move beyond this. And he had said he'd done the work and yada, yada. This is.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

This is.

[Host 1]

No, no, I'm sorry.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Beyond the pale. No more.

[Tim Whitaker]

No, no.

[Host 1]

And she is so credible. But again, read the words that she said. And she has no reason. There's no benefit to her, because now she's going to be looked at by some as the person who helped Susan Collins win, which is horseshit, because the person who is helping Susan Collins win is Graham Platner. It is his actions and his decisions that are the problem, not this woman. And I already see people talking about that, and it has to stop now. The big question is, what do we do now? Who are the candidates that can replace Graham Platner? So I have had two that I'll talk about, maybe three. And then there's one that people keep mentioning online, which I don't think is. Is really realistic. But first of all, I don't think Janet Mills is going to jump back in. I think that she's done. And I don't think that somebody who got 25% of the Democratic Party vote is a logical candidate to go into the general. It's just a bad idea. But there's two that I think so. The first one, and full disclosure, I am friends with this person. It's Dan Cleban, who has been on this show before. He is the founder and runs main beer company Small. One of the great small business successes in Maine. Pays his people a living wage, pays his people, pays for their health care. Great guy to be able to highlight how Susan Collins has destroyed businesses in the state. The other one, and he's from the southern part of the state. The other one is Troy Jackson, who is from literally the tippy tippy top. He has what I refer to as the greatest Maine accent that I've ever heard. And I don't have one anymore because it basically got knocked out of me when I went to college away. Give me a couple drinks and I might slip into it.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

But then you start talking about a. Yeah, is that how you say.

[Host 1]

It's kind of compact. But anyway.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Which is basically our.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes,

[Host 1]

he is a lumber. Like, he worked in the lumber industry. Like, he was a state senator. He ran for governor, but he ended up coming in fourth, I think. So, like, is that a good idea? The fourth place gubernatorial candidate.

[Narrator/Advertiser 2]

Right.

[Host 1]

So to me, and then the one that people keep mentioning online, which is kind of interesting, but I just can't imagine it, is Heather Cox Richardson. She lives in Maine. She is married to a lobsterman. She is monstrously popular. I just don't see why she would do it. She's got such a great gig. I mean, she has a great gig,

[Host 2 (Luke)]

but like, at the same time, a lot of these people who get into this, like, the, the burden of leadership belongs to the people that don't want it, in my opinion. And it would be. That would be one of those spots where like, she comes into it because she's called and needs to. I would be very supportive of her. I really like her.

[Host 1]

Well, look, I would be supportive of any of the ones I mentioned. There's also. Oh yeah, there's also the. The one that came. The man, I always forget his name. That came in. Well, he came in first before the ranked choice voting, which is Nirav Shah. He was the main CDC director during COVID Actually got a lot of kudos for the work he did and I think ran a pretty good campaign for governor. And I think that that is a possibility. But again, do we pick losers from the primaries to take on Susan Collins, who. Like, all these people are like, oh, everyone's attacking Graham. It's like, if you think the Democrats are attacking Graham? Just wait.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Right. And the thing is, the thing is, like, if.

[Host 1]

If.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

If Republicans were down with him being the guy, what comes out in October probably would have made this look like nothing.

[Host 1]

Like I have. Well, I would be willing to bet

[Host 2 (Luke)]

that they have some in the closet.

[Host 1]

I. I don't have any confirmation on that, but I've heard that. I've heard that, that there's more. And look, like this guy, Graham, he's had a troubled past, and I think it is time that he step back and get some. Some help for that and work through it. But you can't hide this shit in a campaign like this. They will find it. Like, there is just no way. And the other thing I want to say are the guys that went up and recruited him, these two progressive guys, not from Maine, they even admitted they didn't do a full vet.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Yeah. And I'm like, they did a rush. A rush vet. They missed all of the shit. They missed the tattoo. They missed the Reddit posts. They missed the history of abuse. They missed all of that.

[Host 1]

Well, not to mention everyone in. Well, I shouldn't say everybody. Many people in Maine. I talked to a lot of people. People knew about the tattoo before he announced, which means that he wasn't really being truthful about when he found out. And, you know, that's a problem, too. But, like, people were like, I can't believe he jumped in because he's got this tattoo. I heard that from multiple people. So, like, him being like, oh, I just discovered it when I ran. It's like, nope, nope. And then you add all these things.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

A complicated relationship with the truth and ability, in addition to his complicated relationship with consent.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes. Yes.

[Host 1]

And so I'm sorry, guys, but he probably. I mean, maybe even by the time you read this listed as though.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

I'm pretty sure I just read that the Washington Post said they have an exclusive that he's starting to drop. Starting that stuff. So.

[Host 1]

Yeah. So I think, look like we are. We will keep you all posted on how this goes. And I don't know what they're gonna do. There can't be a primary. I mean, this is like 2024 all over again.

[Narrator/Advertiser 2]

It's.

[Host 1]

I can't believe we're doing this. We got a couple extra weeks, but not much. I. I do think, like, it's. It's still possible to beat her. And also to make sure that other candidates don't lose, like, we need a strong top of the ticket. I think Dan, Troy or Heather or Narav all of those four, I can't imagine be anybody else. And I think that any of them would be good. We will be here to support them and we will, we will have them on, you know, but I, you know,

[Host 2 (Luke)]

we, we mean it. It's like Becerra again, you know, we have to, it's just gonna, it's just gonna mean we have to come together. We have.

[Host 1]

Right? And Becerra is going to win most, more than likely gonna win that race. So, like, it ended up working out tad bit different because California is a much bluer state than Maine is. But, but I still think like, you know, it's just a horrible situation and, but like, we had to come on and we wanted to talk to you guys because we supported this guy for a long time and after today we kind of looked at each other, uh, and we're like, nope, that's it. Can't.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

That's it.

[Host 1]

Like no more. I, you know, in a social media age, I am willing to like, give a little bit more grace, but not on that, not on that. I'm done. So I hope nobody is disappointed with that, but we wanted to give you that at the top. The rest of this episode is going to be a bit whiplash.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

It's a bit of a roller coaster,

[Host 1]

but I actually think it's really great. And the. Tim Whitaker is just an awesome guest. So, like, there's a lot to learn there. He's really good. There's a lot to learn there. So we hope you enjoy that. We will obviously keep you posted on the Bane race and everything associated with it, but for now, that's where we stand. And after this break, you'll get the rest of the show. And we're live on match day as Doug reaches for a buffalo wing. He's got it. Oh, and he's gone for a can of Pepsi too. What a finish. There's no doubt about it.

[Narrator/Advertiser 2]

He.

[Host 1]

It just tastes better. Match Days deserve Pepsi. Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment

[Narrator/Advertiser]

of $45 for 3 months, $90 for 6 months or $180 for 12 month plan required. $15 per month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See Terms.

[Host 1]

Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Find out podcast. We hope you had a great fourth of July weekend. We have broken our streak of all of the show hosts and actually it's just Luke and I today. We got Tim squared though, but, but we doubled the amount of Tim's which is really better than Rich and Zach. Anyways, we are joined by Tim Whitaker who is the co founder of New Evangelicals. And now Tim Speaks is your.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, I am the founder of the New Evangelicals and Melinda Hale runs the organization now and I have my own Tim Whitaker Speaks platforms that I do on my own.

[Host 1]

And just so people, that people know you grew up in a. You describe the family that you grew up in. I. I'll do a bad job.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, I grew up in like in a very conservative evangelical Christian cult as a whole. So I was involved in, in the, in the church world that has given us Trump. I was involved in that world my entire life up until about 35.

[Host 1]

Yeah. So we're going to dive into all of that. But Tim's also a good friend of the show and has like been with us, so he's serving as a co host and a guest today. So we're going to start with what pretty much everybody's been talking about, which is the fourth of July festivities that Donald Trump basically set up for himself also to enrich himself from. Did you guys. I know, Luke, you watched a speech and I know you stayed over that fucking. You got your teeth.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

I stayed up and watched the entire thing.

[Host 1]

You were, you were just mesmerized by the, you know, eloquent speech that he gave. All right, how was it?

[Host 2 (Luke)]

It was the biggest waste of fucking time ever. The thing is, the interesting thing about it is if you remove his ad libs and his threats against communism and his talkings of election fraud and his thirsting at the mouth for American violence, chunks of it were actually presidential sounding like, what? It's wild. It is wild. There are chunks of it in there where you could see an actual good president giving that speech and going, oh, that's, you know, not a bad speech. And then he starts talking about how communists are the greatest threat to this country and we need to pass the Save America act to save it. And that's like, oh, we're back to the same shit again. Back to the same shit again.

[Host 1]

We talked about. We shit. We talked about it last week, Tim. There was, you know, the right wing response to the birthright citizenship decision. There was One right wing creator, Liz Wheeler, who said now there will be 1 million communist China children that will be legally allowed to vote.

[Tim Whitaker]

Isn't. Which isn't Liz Wheeler like the female version of Nick Fuentes. Like she's pretty much as alt right as you get, right?

[Host 1]

I think so.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

I think that's the case.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

My, the interesting thing though is like if that. Let's just, let's just gameplay it for a second. If that were true, wouldn't they already be, wouldn't there already be a million Chinese communist children voting out white? I guess what she really means is voting out white people.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

So like that whole birthright citizenship is they, they decided that the Supreme Court decision was like establishing it for the first time.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

And that suddenly there were going to be all these birthright citizens. It's like no, this has been happening for 140 years, you ignorant fox.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

It's not a new thing.

[Host 1]

Nothing changed.

[Tim Whitaker]

Was. Yep. That's the law. Moving on.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

They said, they said, oh the Constitution is constitutional.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh but well they actually, you can't let facts get in the way of good propaganda. Right, right. So you know, the propaganda of course is going to be how we're being invaded. It's a continuation of the great replacement theory that we've been hearing for years now. And of course I'm not surprised to hear Liz Wheeler talk about the invasion of the communists. Like we have some like we. Where are the communists? Like where are they? Can you point me to where the communists are?

[Host 1]

Show me the block, God damn it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Join. So show me where they are.

[Host 1]

Well, and it's, it's, it's, it's funny because, and it's actually, this is perfect segue into some of the stuff that you've dealt with here. But like you know, I, Luke and I are not religious people. We've said that. I did grow up Catholic and I would refer to myself as a lapse Catholic. I don't know if I have a term for what I am now. Agnostic, atheist, whatever. I don't, I don't particularly care. But I do know that Jesus's teachings and what is in the Bible. I believe there's the give us your huddled masses. I mean that's the American, that's the Statue of Liberty thing. But like Jesus was about feeding and caring for the poor. Right. And so how does Famously even.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Right.

[Host 1]

Like that was like that's his brand. Right? That's his brand.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

He's got a good brand.

[Host 1]

How, how did this get co opted or, or twisted in such a way that now the people who would say they are the most Christian are actually not following the teachings of Jesus Christ.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, I mean, look, the very short version of that is, I told you guys this story before on your podcast, but the. The long story short is that, you know, there's always been competing visions of what a Christian anything looks like. And one version of Christianity is that it's a way to expand human flourishing for all of our neighbors, rooted in the respect and dignity of all human life. Then there's a version that says, no, we are God's chosen special people, and we have to take over things and colonize them or Christianize them in order for God's kingdom to come back. Unfortunately, we are living in the reality where that latter faction has a lot of money and power to really do what they want politically. And we're all witnessing and feeling the consequences of that, and that's what it comes down to. But you'll notice those types of Christians rarely, if ever quote the words of Jesus because like you said, Tim, you know, it's Jesus who taught people to welcome the stranger. It's Jesus who says that. That. That nations and people who do not take care of the poor and heal the sick are actually in danger of eternal judgment. Right. You can't square that teaching with kick, kick the immigrants out. They're rooting the country and, oh, just work harder, you poor person. That doesn't. It doesn't compute. So they create all kinds of other theologies and propaganda to give people this, you know, bastardization of Christian faith.

[Host 1]

How so? How do they. Like, if you were to ask, I assume you have some family that are still in this world or, or friends or maybe like, associates or people that, you know, if you were to say that to them, what would they say?

[Tim Whitaker]

So really easy, they would just say, that's not what the Bible is talking about. In context. For example, Matthew 25 is a very iconic passage where Jesus is giving all the commands to love the stranger, take care of the sick. They would say, well, that's for the church to do. He's not prescribing for a nation to do that. Of course, these are the same people who will then say, well, because the Bible is clear on abortion, hint, it's not clear on abortion, but they'll say that it is. Therefore, we have to outlaw all abortion. Or because the Bible is clear on. On marriage, hint, it's not clear on marriage, we have to. We have to, you know, ban gay marriage from the country. So it's Always a selective interpretation. It's always what you can call. It's like a motivated literalism. Only certain parts of the Bible are taken literally that advance their agenda. But that's what they would say. They would just appeal to. You're not using the Bible correctly. But we are.

[Host 1]

Yeah, that's sounds familiar to the Constitution. Yeah, I mean it's sort of, I mean it's interesting because it's like, you know, we are told by conservatives when it comes to the constitutional Constitution, you're supposed to read it word for word and then when you go to the Bible, all of a sudden it's like, no, this is like a, these are just interpretations but also follow the Bible specifically.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, there's actually a correlation here. Right. Because they, they actually treat the Constitution in the Bible the same way they will. Like for example, I remember, I think it was Sean Hannity or Mark Levine used to hand out free pocket constitutions insisting their audiences have the Constitution in their pocket. Well, here we are, the Constitution. The Supreme Court thankfully upholds the Constitution. Oh, how could they? This is crazy. Why? Because they don't interpret it this way. It's not about what it actually says. It's about their very twisted interpretation of the Bible or the Constitution that continues to give them privilege and power and control. Who benefits? They do. That's what matters here.

[Host 1]

Yeah, it's wild because the, the, the. Was it. The 14th amendment was birthright citizenship.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Is so clear. We read it last week. It is so clear that like, I don't know how you can interpret it any other way than the way that the, like the five and a half, let's say, interpreted it. But I guess my question on all of this is are these people, do they know they're wrong and they are saying it purposely for, for their own benefit or are they. So I'm trying not to be disrespectful to religious people, but deluded that they actually believe what they're saying.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, let's just, let's be specific. Right. A lot of religious people do great work, amazing things no matter what sect. Right. Our friend Costume Rashid is Muslim, doing amazing 100.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Right.

[Tim Whitaker]

So there are, let's talk about like the Christian fundamentalists, like the people I, the tribe I come from.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Right.

[Tim Whitaker]

They really believe that they're right. I mean you have to understand as a kid, I grew up 247 in a bubble that reinforced these talking points through, through talk radio, through theology, through books, through movies, through music. I mean it was just everywhere. It's all you could see. It's like living in a basement. You're in a dark basement and these people give you the interpretation of the outside world. So to them, they're convinced that they are right. They're convinced that they are correct, that they understand the Bible like no one else does. Of course, once you get above ground and that bubble pops, you realize how crazy it actually is. But when you're in it, it's very convincing.

[Host 1]

Well, and I know it kind of

[Host 2 (Luke)]

goes hand in hand with that video that came out of that church in the south last week.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right, exactly, exactly.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

I don't think Tim has seen it, so I will.

[Host 1]

I haven't hear it. And they were talking before we started. I said, don't show me this because I want to react to it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, this is something else.

[Host 1]

I've been thinking about this all day.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Two, three, four. What's after four? Six.

[Host 1]

What's after six? What the are they saying? Kick some ass. Blow him up.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Take him out.

[Host 1]

Blow him up. Who is he supposed to be?

[Tim Whitaker]

The devil?

[Host 1]

And they came in and shot him with an AR15 or something?

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, yeah. Some kind of gun.

[Host 1]

What kind of church was that? Pentecostal or something?

[Tim Whitaker]

I think similar to that. The pastor actually came out and defended this ultimately, so.

[Host 1]

Defended.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, so. So this is taking place in what's called a VBS vacation Bible school. This is a very popular program that happens at churches all across the country.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

I went to vbs.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah, vbs. It's, it's like a little like day camp for, for kids that churches host. Very, very benign, like usually very fun. Just like it's, it's pirate themed, it's

[Host 1]

treasure code themed, like whatever.

[Tim Whitaker]

So, so it's usually fine. In this vacation Bible school they do this thing according to the pastor almost every year where they, they, they have this recreation of God's commandos or God's soldiers taking out the devil to teach kids the importance of, of hating what is evil, hating the devil and trying to kill him. Of course it is crazy that the people who tell you that the gays are grooming children will then allow their kids to go to a place like this where they reenact and watch a live execution and they participate in it. Right. Now certainly I'm not going to say this is what every church would allow or even tolerate.

[Host 1]

But the fact that.

[Tim Whitaker]

Here's the thing though, this will not get passed around in right wing media spaces as an example of the problem with the church. Right. This would get brush under the rug, not a big deal. But this is a great example of the kind of stuff that they will tolerate in these spaces. No problem. Because to them, like, well, there is truth to wanting to kill the devil. God tells us to. To hate evil. So you can kind of see how they can get there in a really twisted way. But, yeah, that is real. And the pastor defended it.

[Narrator/Advertiser 2]

Absolutely.

[Host 1]

So where in the Bible are the AR15 toting God's commandos, which I think was the term you just said, which is. That must be in a, In a section of the Bible that I haven't, I haven't read.

[Tim Whitaker]

Well, look, the Bible is a very big collection of documents, and there's some problematic things in there. I mean, I'm a Christian. I have no problem saying that. Right. Tons of things that you would go, yikes. And there is a lot of language about putting on the armor of God. Now, the apostle Paul talks about fighting principalities, not people. But in Revelation, the Jesus that comes back in the book of Revelation is a violent, bloody Jesus where his garment is soaked in the blood of his enemies. So there certainly is violent apocalyptic language that you can pull from Revelation to justify some of this stuff. For sure.

[Host 1]

Oh, boy.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm not saying most Christians accept that, but that, that you, you, you can get there. You can get there.

[Host 1]

Well, I, I'm, I'm glad that you, you bring this up, because I think this is, this is the point here. And you made a good point earlier about, like, the people who are in this world will never see that stuff because they're in an information bubble that is almost impenetrable. And so, like, we see this stuff, and I think our audience is probably like, how do these people exist? But they almost literally live in a different world. Like, it's not the same. Yes.

[Tim Whitaker]

And there's an entire subculture right there. There's alternative music, there's alternative books. You know, you want to. Don't watch Disney. Watch this other streaming service. Like, it's a completely.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Watch Angel Studios.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes, Angel Studios or whatever else it might be. Right. When I was a kid, there was a company called Feature Films for Families, where they would call you and you could order movies that were like, you know, they were movies for kids that were in that world. So it's not just, you know, it's not only that. It also builds a culture of fear and judgment. You're not taught to be curious about new information. You're taught to fear new information. I remember as a kid being told, don't send your kid to liberal colleges, to secular colleges. They'll Be indoctrinated. I was like 10 and hearing this stuff. Right? No curiosity, always protection.

[Host 1]

Well, we, we talked to Monty Vader. I know, you know, and, you know, she told the story about how she went to Liberty University and thought that was liberal.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, yeah.

[Host 1]

Because of her upbringing. And like, for somebody like, like us that didn't grow up in that, it's like, are you James Falwell?

[Tim Whitaker]

There is like, those guys. There is a school called Pensacola Christian in Florida. You want conservative, that's where you go. They think, they do think that Liberty is liberal. This is a place where men and women have to walk on different sides of the sidewalk. You can't be caught alone with a member of the opposite sex. It's skirts only for women. No kind of. Forget secular music. No kind of. Any kind of rock music. Hymns only. And people will police you. Oh, yeah.

[Host 1]

Oh, yeah.

[Tim Whitaker]

So there, there are places that are quite fundamentalist that make Liberty look like, you know, a big Marxist, you know, communist, liberal, you know, place. For sure, for sure.

[Host 1]

So that. For the audience that doesn't know because Jerry Falwell died a few years ago. But Jerry Falwell, who, Who started Liberty University, went on TV the day of 9, 11 and blamed gay people.

[Tim Whitaker]

He blamed.

[Host 1]

That's what he gave ACLU and the

[Tim Whitaker]

abortionists and the feminists.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Jesus Christ.

[Host 1]

And to these people at this pentacle. You said pentacle. Pensacola Christian.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, yeah, Pensacola.

[Host 1]

He was. Florida, thought he was liberal.

[Tim Whitaker]

For sure. Yeah, for sure, for sure.

[Host 1]

And I think this is important because I don't. A lot of people on our, on the left, we don't know this because we don't really, like, hang out with these people. Right. Because there is no hanging out with those people. And I think we get confused when, you know, we see these massive swells of support for Trump. But when you think about these. These ecosystems that are essentially impenetrable, it starts to make more sense that it's like, yes, I'm voting for the. The New York, you know, con artist. But he says he's going to, like, follow the Bible or whatever it is, or, like, he's going to kick out the people that aren't like us or whatever. It ends up being.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

I mean, what was kind of interesting last night, I was watching, every night before I go to bed, I watch YouTube in bed with my fiance, and we were watching a, like a mini documentary of this news crew that went into this fucking middle of nowhere hillbilly town in West Virginia.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, I watched that one recently.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Roca News.

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Yeah, going to Dingus, West Virginia. Yes, yes, yes, I want Dingus. And it's a bunch of coal miners that live at the other side of this 1 mile long coal tunnel.

[Host 1]

One way.

[Tim Whitaker]

Tunnel.

[Host 1]

Yeah, one way.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

And before they go through this tunnel, the people on the other side say, hey, be careful going into Dingus. It's a bunch of outlaws and Rough Riders over there. They don't really do a whole lot. Like, it's pretty. And so they, these, these two guys drive through this tunnel and they go across the dingus and they are immediately, one guy tell them, tells them to get the out of there with their camera, get out. Then they run into this other guy who flags him down and says, hey, come up into the boonies with me, we'll talk. And so they follow this guy up out into the middle of nowhere where they talk to this guy and his little clan of, you know, people will try his people, his, his that live on the hill with him. And it's like, I don't know, five or 10 people that are talking about how they're all family and every one of them is talking about how they, you know, they vote for coal and all the people. So the people on the other side, they asked because Bernie Sanders had gone through not too far from there, and they asked what people around there thought of Bernie Sanders and all of them went, nah, he's not welcome around here. We, we vote for Trump down here because of coal. And then. But they go through to this other side to Dingus, and they start asking about job opportunities because these people are talking about how they want their whole family to stay in Dingus and live in, you know, they're going to have a better life in Dingus. And they start asking about job opportunities and they're like, well, coal's pretty dead right now. And there's logging, but other than that, not a lot of jobs. And there's huge opioid problems. And they were talking about people dying and shit like that. And it was like, that is a very, very insulated community. But they are everywhere in the South. All of my personal experience with them has scared the living fuck out of me.

[Narrator/Advertiser 2]

Right now, news and politics are moving awfully fast. It can feel overwhelming, to say the least. I'm Evan Osnos, a staff writer for the New Yorker. On the Political Scene podcast, we slow things down to understand how power really operates in Washington D.C. and what it means for you. My co hosts Jane Mayer and Susan Glasser and I have decades of reporting experience and Every Friday, we have conversations with insiders and experts to understand the forces remaking America. Join us Fridays for the Washington Roundtable from the political scene. On Mondays and Wednesdays, you can also hear insightful episodes from our New Yorker colleagues, David Remnick and Tyler Foggit, available wherever you get your podcasts.

[Host 1]

I mean, I guess, Tim, the question. I've. We've talked about this, obviously, but I want the audience to hear, like, how did you get out of it? Like, how. What was the way? Because, like, obviously, there is a way to get out. It may not be easy. You did it. Monty did it. There's. There are people who did it.

[Narrator/Advertiser 2]

We.

[Host 1]

There's some people online we've been talking to about breaking out of it as well. How did that happen for you?

[Host 2 (Luke)]

I think.

[Tim Whitaker]

I think a big part of it is just the wiring of the person that. You know, I was always a curious person. Always. Even when I was in those spaces, I was always curious. How does this work? How does that work? I'll never forget, I was, you know, working in construction, listening to Rush Limbaugh. We had to be in, like, this. It was. It was Obama's second term. It was like year two or something, year three. So I've heard a lot about Obama at this point, right? And there's Rush Limbaugh talking about how bad everything is under Obama, how much Obama sucks. I remember thinking, wait a second, he's been president for, like, seven years consecutively. But we're all still here. It can't be. He can't be that bad. It cannot be that bad. Like, he's never done anything, right? He had to do at least one thing, right? Like, that is a very vivid memory I have of being, like, maybe 17. I voted against Obama both times. Make no mistake. I was taught to vote against Obama. So I guess I was like, I was. I was maybe in the 18 or 19 when this happened, but it was one of those things where it was like, yeah, like, why is that? Right? So I was always curious. In the other thing, I'll add, and this is. This is a very common situation for people in the spaces I tend to occupy. A lot of us were very much radical Christians. I pledged my allegiance not to America, but to Jesus a long time ago. I. I don't stand for the. I don't pledge the flag still out of my. My own personal conviction. I just don't. And so I was always a radical Jesus follower. And so when Trump came on the scene especially, I had other qu. I had other concerns before Trump but when Trump came on the scene, and I'm watching pastors that I know tell me to vote for the guy on the COVID of Playboy who's bragging about assaulting women, I went, wait, I'm a. As a Christian, this violates my conscience. I cannot do this. As a Christian, I'm. You told me to never compromise my values, so I'm not going to do it now. So those kinds of ingredients led me out of that basin. But the reason why it's so tough for people, there are two main reasons that I would say are making it really difficult. Number one, it's all, you know. It's all you know, right? So you. So anything above ground you're taught is scary. It's dangerous. You. I mean, you're taught that if you leave the church, you. Your life will just fall apart because God, you know, God blesses those who are faithful. That's number one. But number two, even more strongly, your community is down there. Like your sense of belonging, like your people, your tribe, your inside jokes, all of your. Your culture is formed around this thing. So if you leave, where are you going to go? Because one thing we have to acknowledge, whether we like it or not, is that religion, even if you don't believe it, gives people a sense of ritual and belonging. Right? You get to go to something every week, you get to be with people, and every week you can feel like something's bigger than yourself. You're part of a movement, right? That's a beautiful human desire that we all have. So it's really hard for people to. To trade those two things for the sake of maybe their own value system. So a lot of them just tend to kind of compromise and say, well, yeah, I'm not really a big Trump guy, and secretly I didn't vote for him, but I'm not going to leave my church because this is where I belong. Right? That's kind of how. How it happens for the. For the. For the. For most of them, anyway. For. For the majority, I would say.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

And it's.

[Host 1]

And it's human nature, right? Like, I mean, just imagine for anybody listening, like, think of your friend group and then think that all of a sudden all of them are Trumpers, right? Do you. Do you stay or do you go?

[Tim Whitaker]

Right?

[Host 1]

And, you know, these are hard things. Like these. These situations are complicated. I know a lot of people on the left like to be like, it's black and white. It's like, well, for you, it is right. For you that didn't grow up in this environment. Even I, who am not religious at all. I mean, I went to, I didn't go to Catholic school, but I went to Sunday school. And you know, at first I was like, well, this is what you do. And then eventually I was like, why am I doing, why am I sitting in the basement in, in on a Sunday when I could be out, like, playing with my friends? No one else is doing this. And you know, eventually I grew out of it, but my parents were also progressive, so, like, it was easier, right? But for people that, that's all they know, like, it isn't that easy. And I think that's an important message for us on the left is like these transformations, either they're extraordinary on their own. Like, you were able, you were an inquisitive person, probably similar to like, us and like, ask questions. I was like, why am I going to. How do you know? This is, you know, I started doing that stuff and, but like, a lot of people just don't because it's just what they do. And it's like growing up, I always thought Israel good, Palestine bad because of the way that we have talked about it and we have seen, and American schools talk about that and we have seen like recently a shift on that because of a, essentially a cataclysmic event or several awful, horrific events in a very complicated world. But the point is not good, bad. It's just like the world is gray, but when you are taught that it is black and white and all of a sudden you realize it's gray, the, the, the dissonance just must be overwhelming.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'll tell you what didn't change. Me being called a bigoted asshole online never changed my perspective. It was people who I knew in person who were curious, people themselves and asked me questions. I'm not saying you shouldn't do that. I'm just saying it's not really effective, you know, And I'm with you. You know, I, I hope that folks on the left realize that a, a lot of us are Christians and are also leftist. I would argue it's actually, you're actually more faithful of a Christian if you're a leftist. In my opinion.

[Host 1]

I would agree 100%.

[Tim Whitaker]

But also, like, you know, I, I am not, I don't exist and let the spaces to convert people to Christianity. That is not the point, unfortunately. Whether that we like it or not, it's not just fascism we're dealing with, it's Christian fascism. So you need the interpreters, you need the people who, who can tell you what, what these Things mean and the players involved, who you've never heard of, who are actually moving and shaking culture in ways that are just invisible to the average, I'll just say secular leftist, you know what I mean?

[Host 1]

Well, and I think this is why we, we're having these conversations. And I think that the, the episode we did last week with this never woke guy who essentially is a Christian nationalist who is probably moving further to the right.

[Tim Whitaker]

Self proclaimed, I just think.

[Host 1]

But like he left Trump and we asked him like, and that's why we had him on because he, he joined a live that Luke was doing and they ended up having a decent respectful conversation. This guy was a bomb thrower and he was the one that went to Disney World with the Make America great hat and was like trying to anger people. And so we. At which he admitted he was wrong. He was like, I was wrong.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

His video, now that just as an update, he made a video last week where he admitted that in the last five years, four years, especially since he started doing this, that being a good person was not a priority for him.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

And I was like, wow, that is a, that's a hell of an admission from somebody like that.

[Host 1]

Well, and I, and the reason why, I mean, and like he clearly like was still misinformed about a lot of things. Like he was like, I don't like Israel controlling Trump. And I'm like, to be clear, yes, they get a lot of money from Israel, but they also get money from the Saudis, they also get money from the Qataris. Do not make this an anti Semitic thing like this. There is a wider thing here. And he kind of heard a little bit, he kind of, he didn't push back. And then he said like, leftists are the more violent. And I was like, I gotta stop you on that. So like he's still getting, I was like, you can go look this up. And he didn't push again because like they are told a thing, they don't research it, but it's being echoed in everything that they see. Everything Fox News online, the President like all of this stuff. And like they don't see the other stuff. So they just assume. And I go, well go Google it yourself and see what happens. And they just don't. That's why these conversations work because we, we got a few notes last week about saying that they were took, that people were taking that episode and sharing it with some folks that had voted for maga. But we're starting to see the light and this is where it becomes important because I feel like these conversations, we are giving tools to people to have the conversation rather than do what they normally do is. Which is, you're a fucking idiot. You're a stupid asshole. Why are you voting for Trump? Which, as you point out, is just going to back someone into a corner where if you could point a message and say, this guy voted for Donald Trump three times. This guy put the goddamn hat on and. And went to a children's park to fucking gloat in front of people who probably are worried about their lives.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[Host 1]

And he has, he has seen the light.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep. Well, luckily, there's so much corruption in this administration, at some point you have to wake up. I think you.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

You can't ignore it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Eventually, even the whole. I mean, Trump has rug pulled his own supporters. And like, you know, so it's like, at what point does any of his supporters go, oh, this guy does fucking hate me. Oh, this guy does think I'm a piece of shit. Like, that's what I want to know. Like, at what point does a Trump supporter go, wait a second, this dude is enriching himself to the tune of billions of dollars while in the White House. He is not draining the swamp. He is the swamp. Right. That's what I want to know. Like, guys, when do you wake up? Like you're being taken for a ride?

[Host 1]

Well, there's a, there's an example we talked about before. I want to bring it up now. That's a good segue. But they, you know, Trump, even though he. It's almost like you've done this before. Trump does have some disclosures. He doesn't release his taxes, but there are disclosures that he is required to do. And one of those disclosures showed that he made 2.2 billion with a B billion dollars in the past year in crypto. And the one I want to highlight the most that goes to your point, Tim, is the Trump Meme coin, which he promoted on social three days before he was sworn in as president. Three days before January 17th and said, Buy the Trump Meme coin. So do you know what happened? So, of course it started and it goes up. He made $636 million off of the Trump Meme coin. Do you know how much the people who bought it made?

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, they lost. They lost. They lost 95%. Something crazy.

[Host 1]

Three point. I think it's 3.6 or 3.8.

[Narrator/Advertiser 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Billion dollars. Almost a million people lost almost $4 billion. And he made over half a billion. How much clearer is it that he hates his supporters? He takes Advantage of your fucking money.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

And he takes your money.

[Tim Whitaker]

Guys, watch Coffee Zilla. And yes, all right, so, yeah, look, so you understand that. So Coffee Zillow is my favorite YouTubers maybe ever. He tracks crypto scams and all kinds of other. He's seen files, he's really great. And his production, by the way, is like, so top tier. Anyway, he talks a lot about these things. They're called rug pulls. That's exactly what happened. Essentially, someone will create a coin, they will have influencers hype it up to a public audience. What they don't tell the public is that people have coin already before it goes public. So, you know, you might have a million of. Of the Trump coins that you paid. 0,1 cent for each one, right? But no, they don't tell you that many is already allocated before it goes public. People, when it goes live, they buy in at maybe $0.01 or $0.05 or $0.25 a coin. And all of a sudden the people who bought the coin for 0.001 cents just, you know, went up 25, 50, 100 fold to the boon. And then they sell that coin and that plummets the value of the coin, right?

[Host 1]

They dump it.

[Narrator/Advertiser 2]

It's.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's a brilliant and unethical, of course, but brilliant way to transfer money from the poor to the rich.

[Host 1]

That's 100%.

[Tim Whitaker]

It's one big transfer. Just cash Apple next time, guys. Just cash Apple.

[Host 1]

Class action. Like it's a perfect example of pump and dump. That's right. That's exactly what it is. And because crypto is unregulated for the most part, nobody knows the transactions are confidential. I mean, I know that the CIA and others have ways to get into these things, but like, for the most part, you have no idea where these transactions are going. You have no idea who's actually buying them. And it's like you said, it is a backdoor way to enrich the President of the United States and get him to do things. I mean, you know, the thing about

[Host 2 (Luke)]

it is, for me is this is the shit that they're telling us about. I mean, right, the trades. The trades that he made less than 36 hours before he implemented global tariffs. The right 30 trades a day that are, you know, somewhere between 5 and 10 million dollars worth every day. That's the they're telling us about, right? I have to imagine that there's. Fuck shit in the background that we'll never even know.

[Host 1]

Well, then there's.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

There's this whole thing with the World cup, because Trump Called Infantino to get. Get our player back on the fucking team. A buck gets 10 that one of his fucking kids has a fuck. Has a fucking polymarket bet on our game against Belgium.

[Host 1]

Oh, yeah, he did. Do you think that he would have actually, like, gone to Batman for the, like, person of color in the U.S. soccer team if he didn't have any personal interests?

[Host 2 (Luke)]

To him, the only right a birthright citizen deserves is the right to play soccer. Because as he's actively trying to strip the birthrights off of millions of Americans, this one needs to be able to play soccer.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yep.

[Host 1]

Because money's involved.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Because money's involved.

[Host 1]

And let's be honest, Trump's involved. FIFA is one of the most corrupt organizations in the world, so you can. Well, because my understanding is most corrupt President. And if.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

My understanding is the ruling that if. The rule is that if any government tries to be involved in a FIFA ruling, that government's team is disqualified. It's happened before. Not this time, though.

[Tim Whitaker]

Makes sense.

[Host 1]

I did. I did hear that. They did. They did take a red card away from Ronaldo. They did another thing, but it was different. I don't know enough about this, so, like, I'm out of my. I was just surprised that Trump actually did something for.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Well, it's because he wants to go to the last game. He wants the US to go all the way.

[Host 1]

He wants us to wait for him today.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

He said that if Belgium wins, it's rigged like the. Like the 2020 election.

[Host 1]

Oh, of course.

[Tim Whitaker]

I mean, I'm sure you have. What drives me the most wild is that people like Sean Hannity, who are still on Fox News, they are so quiet about what is an avalanche of corruption. These are the same people who ran a whole fucking segment on President Obama asking for Dijon mustard on a burger. Can we just acknowledge that?

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Not a fucking word about it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Some of the big scandals were Obama wore a tan suit, Obama wore a bicycle helmet, and Vladimir Putin didn't. Aren't we weak and pathetic? And. Oh, that's a real one. You can look it up.

[Host 1]

Oh, I know, I know.

[Tim Whitaker]

And, oh, Obama ordered Dijon mustard on a burger. Look how shitty we are. And here we are now under this man who. I mean, guys, every day is a new Watergate level scandal, and we have to. We just have to blink and go, okay, what's the next one? What's the next one? And they are so fucking quiet. They're silent. While trying to convince people that Trump's the greatest president ever. What if it's the Gaslighting is just unfathomable. Yet here we are.

[Host 1]

I don't know how Sean Hannity, who knows better.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[Host 1]

Like how he lives with himself. I know it's in a house of, I know his walls are like covered with money. But like, and he makes $30 million a year or whatever it ends up being. But like, this is what I don't understand. It's like first of all, 30 million, one year, you could be, you're set for life. How you look yourself in the mirror and, and, and knowing that you are making your money off of lying. And, and to be honest, over poor and working class families who are getting taken in by this guy because Sean Hannity and others, many others are pumping him up and they all get screwed, every single one of them. Like, nobody benefits from this. No one has benefited from this administration except for millionaires and billionaires and trillionaires and trillions. Is he still a trillionaire?

[Host 2 (Luke)]

He's back to a 950 million.

[Tim Whitaker]

Oh, thank God. Okay. See, things are getting better. We're taxing.

[Host 1]

Thank God.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Nope. It's just because it's a fucking scam.

[Host 1]

It's just like, this is the stuff when it goes back to the evangelicals where it's like your lives for the most part, unless you're like a Joel Osteen or somebody who just makes profits off of religion, but like, you're not getting any better. Kicking out, let's be honest, kicking out the brown people hasn't made the economy any better. This is another thing I want to hear from people is like, we have kicked out millions of people, mostly brown people. The economy hasn't gotten any better. That was the whole justification for doing this. And then the other thing that is mind blowing to me is Elon Musk and others, they're all white Evangelicals, say we have a low birth problem. Now I am confused. Do we have a low birth problem or do we have, are we overrun by people? Because they're telling us two things and we know what that is.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Right?

[Host 1]

We know what they're really saying. Not enough white babies.

[Tim Whitaker]

That's right. So here's, here's the logic of how this works. One thing that you're taught over and over again is that there is nothing worse than a Democrat in power. Doesn't matter if they have a D in front of their name. It's, it's, you're better off voting for Satan. If Satan ran as a Republican, they vote for him over Jesus Christ. If you wrote for it, I'm not You think I'm kidding. I'm really not.

[Host 1]

No, no, I, I don't, I, I don't.

[Tim Whitaker]

And, and they always move the issue. So, for example, if I tell, if I tell someone, hey, you know, are you guys happy about the economy under Trump? They'll go, well, Trump is pro life. Okay, Then when you mentioned that, hey, abortion rates went up under Trump in 2016 after Roe v. Wade was overturned. Oh, well, you know what? Immigration. Then when you point out, to your point, Luke, that, you know, we're actually not any better economically by deporting brown skin people. Oh, well, then next issue, right, there's about laws.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

And then, then when you talk about how it's laws and you elected a felon, they're like, well, but it's a moral thing.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

And then you're like, well, he's a rapist. There's always another one.

[Tim Whitaker]

They always move because you're just taught that Democrats are the spawn of Satan themselves. There is nothing a Democrat can do to convince the evangelical that they're a better option than whatever, you know, than whatever the alternative is. It's always going to be Republican. That's how, that's a big reason how we got Trump. It wasn't just, oh, I love Trump. In the beginning, a lot of evangelicals were really hesitant. I mean, I'm talking not, not the leaders, like the actual ranking file, but they held their nose because, well, it could be worse. Hey, we could have Clinton in the White House and Hillary Clinton, that bitch.

[Host 1]

That.

[Tim Whitaker]

Exactly, exactly. But her emails, that kind of thing.

[Narrator/Advertiser 2]

Exactly.

[Host 1]

Right. Which of course the Trump kids had

[Host 2 (Luke)]

private emails would be a fucking 20 second news clip on Fox News now if it was Donald Trump that did it.

[Host 1]

Well, they did it. This is the thing. And nobody knows it. Ivanka and Jared were using Gmail in the White House. And guess what, guys, Gmail is a private email server. When, when you're talking about the federal government, it's no different. Hillary made a stupid mistake. Do not get me wrong, she made a horrifically stupid mistake. Probably because someone said we should do this and she doesn't, didn't know it and she said, fine. But it, there was nothing. They looked, there's nothing there. And it's like all this, but like the right has concocted this story about the Clintons for 30 years. So it was easy. And then Comey and the Times did the dirty work for them and ran that bullshit, which by the way, after the election they found out nothing was there.

[Tim Whitaker]

Right.

[Host 1]

You know, it's just It's. It's craziness. But I do want to ask. So Democrats are seen as the devil. And you may not have an answer to this because if you had this answer, you probably have a B B next to your net worth, too. How do we break through? How do Democrats show evangelicals that we are actually more aligned with the teachings that they say they believe in than the Republicans do? Because the. Because the Republicans do not value. They do not value life. They absolutely do not. And I. This is the one where I get like, really hung up on because they say we are for the sanctity of life, but the second that kid is born, they don't want them to have any help whatsoever. So how. But how do we. How do we start the conversation?

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm sure. Did you all see the Democrat or whatever on threads they put out, like their own, like, fourth of July video? And it was just so. It was just so cringe. It was just such a.

[Narrator/Advertiser 2]

Everything.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Everything they. Almost everything they post is cringe.

[Tim Whitaker]

It was just. I mean, even. Even Jolly, the ginger was in there. You know, they just got ratioed. It was just so terrible. Was so bad to watch. You're just like. You're like, you know, look, when Jolly is commenting on your posts in negative, like, you're just cooked. You're just cooked. You know, and so my. And I know we share a lot of the same gripes here. The Democratic establishment is just so out of touch in so many different ways, in my opinion. Yeah. Also here's the thing that gets overlooked. There's actually a deep religious tradition in the Democratic Party. It's called the Black liberation tradition. It's there. Right. So there are Raphael Warnock. There are many Christians who are doing great work that in my opinion, the Democratic Party and really the left as a whole made a catastrophic error by not taking advantage of social media early on like the right did. Yeah. And also for. And I don't.

[Host 1]

This is.

[Tim Whitaker]

Tim, this is more your world. This is just me on the outside giving my opinion. I don't know how it works. Right.

[Host 1]

No, no, no, no, no. Bring it.

[Tim Whitaker]

I don't know how the turning point USAs of the world can get funded by all these billionaires. And I know that the left has some billionaires. I don't know why we're not building institutions that our media powerhouse is pumping out shows, paying creators a fair amount of money. Not tons, but a fair amount, and actually starts taking back the airwaves. I'm not saying there aren't great leftist critters. Out there. There are in the work that you're doing, Tim, in the show. It's all great stuff. But we all know that we're up against Prageru. Even the Daily Wire, even though they're totally tanking, saw major personalities, right. Carlson, Candace, Owens, and then Turning Point. Like we need an alternative that presents better narratives for all people, not just for some. Right. That also has a f, has a section that is, also has a faith element. Because some people do not want to give up their faith. They don't want to. I don't want to give up. Give up mine.

[Host 1]

I want to keep it right.

[Tim Whitaker]

You know, that's well.

[Host 1]

And I don't want, and I don't want anybody to give up something that they believe in either. And you are 100% right. I was going to joke that we're going to cut that clip and send it to funders all over the place.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Tell them true. Well, but look, I will tell you exactly what the problem is. And the problem is that the people at the top who are driving, who are driving a lot of these decisions still don't understand the power of digital, social, all these things. They think that digital is a cash register. That's why you get those shitty emails that are always saying that they're panicked even though they're not. Which after you do that a few times makes them useless because no one's going to listen to you anymore. And then you get texted by these random campaigns you've never heard of. There's no onboarding, there's no like, hey, like, I got this from this. And like, da, da, da, da. There needs to be a complete revamp of how we do things. I would actually argue our entire model is broken. It's broken.

[Narrator/Advertiser 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

And like the fact is that the DNC cannot fix this problem internally. What they should be doing is talking to funders and explaining we need to be funding an entire ecosystem, all from the, from the, the most blue dog moderate Dem to the most left wing DSA styled person. There needs to be something for everybody. Just like there needs to be a Christian angle to this. And that's why we're talking about this. Because, like, I mean, I'm not watching that, but millions of people might just like, we need this show to exist, your stuff to exist, but we just need so much more of it. Turning Points. That's a good example. I actually am on a, on the advisory board of a group called Dream for America. WILLIAM on so Dream for America is trying to build the left Wing version of Turning Points. But like it's. They're having trouble raising money because everybody on our side is having trouble raising money because donors are still. They're like, well we spent 2 billion last time we went backwards so we're not really interested. It's like, no, now is the time.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

I know the solution. Spend no money and then go further, even further.

[Host 1]

Then we get Right. But part of the problem is the people communicating to the rich. Donors don't understand this world because they're mostly from the comms or policy world and they don't get it. So when you go to a billionaire and say look, I know you gave this to this. We realized that we had to completely redo this. We need to try a lot of different things. We need money to get started. And actually it doesn't take that much money.

[Tim Whitaker]

Doesn't that much money.

[Host 1]

Doesn't take that much money. They spent $2 billion in 2024. You don't even need 10 guys now.

[Tim Whitaker]

Turning Point USA brought in 80 million for like the first over a decade. That's compared to 2 billion. That's a drop. And look how, look how effective they are with 80 million.

[Host 1]

It's were right. But they, but the right funded those guys to get started. Right. They got them the money just like those. There's those Russian money was coming through that LLC and paying Tim Pool, Benny Johnson and somebody else.

[Tim Whitaker]

What's his name Just on jubilee. He got destroyed.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

He didn't get destroyed.

[Host 1]

Oh, Dave Rubin.

[Tim Whitaker]

Dave Rubin. Dave Rubin.

[Host 1]

Oh my God. He was embarrassing. They got $400,000 a month. Y from Russia.

[Tim Whitaker]

Must be great.

[Host 1]

$5 million a year. What that, that's more than the entire.

[Tim Whitaker]

Tell your funders I'll do this work for 100 grand a month. I'll give them a 75%. I'm a good guy, you know.

[Host 1]

But it's, but it's true. Like these things like I just told you find out. Media doesn't. Isn't. Is not a five million dollar a year entity.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Imagine if we were. We would be doing so much more. And that's. What percentage of 2 billion is 5 million? 2, 2 and a half percent. Is that, am I getting that right? No, no. 0.2%. The, the, a little bit.

[Tim Whitaker]

The New Evangelicals is non profit. So I spent years fundraising and trying to convince especially more white progressive Christians who were more established, you need to fund new media. I had conversations with people in that space who told me they're really mostly interested still in, in, in print. They still Believe in magazines. And I was like, are you kidding me? Magazines?

[Host 1]

Show me a, show me a sub.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

25 year old that reads a fucking.

[Host 1]

I will tell you 40, I will name names.

[Tim Whitaker]

A couple of years ago, I talked to one of the oldest progressive Christian organizations in America. They are still around. And I said, so what's your plan for digital media? And they go, we don't really have one. We're really invested in print magazine. And my jaw drop. And I'm like, well, this is why you're irrelevant because who the hell reads magazines? You know? Like, I just don't get it. So you're, you're. I feel your pain because I did this. I was doing the same thing for many years in the, in the Christian left space saying, guys, wake up. We're getting outflanked in every single way. It's almost like. This might be a bad analogy, but it's almost kind of like the MCU versus the dcu. Like, the mcu, like, they did things really well, really early, and the D.C. was like, wait, we got to catch up. And then they completely just botched the whole fucking thing. And you're like, oh my God. Like, guys, you have, in my opinion, better properties. You got Batman, you got Superman, you got great characters and you keep fighting it up. That's how I feel about Democratic Party. It's like, guys, you're, you're just, you're always behind it up and I don't know why. I don't know why.

[Host 1]

I mean, how many different Batmans did we have in like a 10 year period? It's like four or something. Like, you're like, okay, I mean, I like the, the Dark Knight trilogies, but the rest of that stuff. No, but like, it's true. And this is the thing that kills me is like, it is, it doesn't take that much money. It really doesn't. Whether it's media companies or individual creators. Because by the way, a lot of these people are doing this as a side job. And like, sometimes they like, they go away because they're like, I can't make enough money on this.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm gone.

[Host 1]

And then we lose. We go backwards. And it's like, guys, we need a theater system. We need to build this thing out. And I know you're going to lose control. And that's part of the problem too, like by spreading it out. But, like, look at whose voices are, are popping through right now. Like, us. Like, Mike Nellis is doing a great job. Dodd Lemon, like all these people who've Decided to go out on their own Midas. Like, all those guys are like doing great and it's like, imagine if they had some rocket fuel to go along with it, including ourselves.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

Fucking gasoline to dump on a fire.

[Host 1]

I mean, we have six shows right now. We get like 10 million, 10 million views per month on our clips. 10 million, okay, that are 10 million views of clips. Pushing our agenda across the platforms. We don't have a lot of overlap and followers. It's all unique and, and so like, imagine that with like actual re. I mean, we have some, we have some funding. I should not say that.

[Tim Whitaker]

But like, but like Rocky Fuel funding, you know, we have like, like, I'm not worried about next year kind of funding.

[Host 1]

Right, right. Like we are, we are building to 28 right now. But like, we are still having to get funding to keep going and that's why it's important for people to get memberships. Thank you very much. But like, obviously big, you know, buckets help, certainty, who we could hire, how we could spend, do all those things. And you know, I think people are coming around to it, but it is still like, it is a. It is a tough thing. But you're right, like, it can't be. The dnc. DNC cannot create a, you know, progressive Christian hour there. Everyone's gonna be like, off. But like, if it's like you, you ought to have people from that world speaking to those people in the language.

[Tim Whitaker]

Just fund it. You don't need, like you said, we don't need a lot of money, guys. We. We just do not. I try. Here's what I want to be able to do. Pay my bills, take care of my kids, not worry about going broke with health care. That's all I want. Just pay me waves. That's all I need. Don't need a Ferrari, don't need millions. Just want to survive in New Jersey. That's all I want.

[Host 2 (Luke)]

You don't even want to be Andrew Tate.

[Tim Whitaker]

I really don't. I really don't.

[Host 1]

Well, well, for many, for many reasons. But no, it's true. And I think like we say, here we are, Impact first, revenue second. But you do have to keep the lights on and people do deserve to get paid.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yes.

[Host 1]

And I think we're having, I mean, like, you know, we're having. We're giving megaphones to people who have left mega. We're giving things that people can go to their friends to show. Like, this stuff works. It just needs more investment and we will get there and we will be self sustaining. But like turning points didn't. They started with nothing and they got funded, which allowed them to build to the point where, yeah, they make $80 million a year, whatever it is. Now, I'm not going to do a lot of things that they do to get money, like lying and be racist and stuff, but, like, we have an audience too. Yeah, it's a good choice.

[Tim Whitaker]

I want you to know, Tim, I support that, that those values there will not be racist, will not lie for money. Like, I, I co sign that.

[Host 1]

Hooray. Yeah. But I, you know, I, I, it's, it's really important and I think that, like, I, it's good that we have these conversations too, because I think this is the way to win. And I think, like, you know, having these conversations is really important because I think a lot of people just don't know what to say to like, you know, disaffected Trump family members. Like, how instead of, you can't chastise them. But, like, if there's certain things that could help, we want to broadcast it because we want to make sure that people understand it because it's going to be a, like one to one. These aren't going to be like, we're not going to release an ad that switches 5 million people's minds. Right. It's conversations with friends. It's conversations with family. It's like pointing out the things, but in a respectful way and not saying, hey, you idiot. Like, don't do that. Like, I know it feels. Sometimes it's hard not to online when you see horrific things, but it just doesn't help. I'm guilty of it as well on occasion, but apologize. No, no, no. I, I, I not apologize. You don't have.

[Tim Whitaker]

I'm gonna get off this call. I need you to apologize immediately for those things.

[Host 1]

Well, I actually think this is a good point. I think we made it.

[Tim Whitaker]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Through the hour.

[Tim Whitaker]

I gotta go.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Tim, where can people find you at?

[Tim Whitaker]

Tim Whitaker speaks YouTube, substack, Instagram threads. That's where I am.

[Host 1]

Well, everybody listening. You should go follow him so that we can lift everybody up and we can be even more impactful with this. So with that, I am gonna say, I know I don't expect the audience to fund us fully, but a membership does help go a long way. 9.99amonth. We're adding some stuff. We're actually thinking about doing a bonus episode every week that will just be for members. So we're adding some teeth to that so you could subscribe on Substack YouTube or Patreon. Did I get the three? Luke Yep, I think those are the three. Like I said 99 9.99amonth and you will be our best friends forever. And also subscribe to our YouTube channel at Find Out Media. And with that Thursday show is going to be a fun one because we have Brian Tyler Cohen coming back to talk about his book. So he, he asked to come back and he is a good friend of the show and he was on like a year ago. So we'll have him on Thursday. So until then, everybody have a great week. Hopefully Trump will not ruin your weeks with some stupid announcements. And we'll see you on Thursday. Bye everybody.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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