Summary of "Why the Rule of Law Still Matters (with Katie Phang)" – The Find Out Podcast

Release Date: May 27, 2025
Host: Find Out Podcast
Guest: Katie Fang, former host of the Katie Fang Show on MSNBC, attorney, and legal analyst.

1. Introduction and Guest Background (00:00 – 02:15)

The episode kicks off with host Tim Fullerton introducing Katie Fang, highlighting her experience as a former MSNBC show host, her new endeavors with the Midas Group on YouTube, and her background as an attorney. The camaraderie is evident as Tim references previous interactions and the dynamic with younger team members, setting an engaging and informal tone for the discussion.

Notable Quote:

Tim Fullerton [00:58]: "And that is the unleashed part of Katie Fang is some profanity."

2. Executive Orders vs. Laws (02:15 – 08:29)

Katie Fang delves into the distinction between executive orders (E.O.s) and laws, emphasizing that E.O.s are not laws passed by Congress but rather declarations that can be challenged if they overstep legal boundaries. She criticizes the current administration's misuse of E.O.s, pointing out the lack of adherence to the rule of law by cabinet officials who treat E.O.s as if they were statutory laws.

Notable Quotes:

Katie Fang [03:13]: "Executive orders are not laws. They're not laws. So let's just start from the baseline understanding that EOs are not laws."

Katie Fang [07:24]: "An executive order is simply a declaration. It has not been passed into law by Congress, period. I mean, that's it."

3. Legal Challenges to Trump’s Actions (08:29 – 13:38)

The conversation shifts to recent legal actions against the Trump administration, specifically referencing a federal judge in Massachusetts issuing a temporary restraining order against Trump's attempt to ban Harvard from admitting international students. Katie highlights these legal victories as signs that the judiciary is still upholding the rule of law despite the administration's defiance.

Notable Quotes:

Katie Fang [09:30]: "A federal judge...said to the Trump administration, you are doing something that is unconstitutional and illegal when it comes to trying to restrict Harvard University from being able to 7,000 foreign students as a part of its student body."

Katie Fang [12:59]: "We have to celebrate the wins where we get them."

4. The Rule of Law and Its Enforcement (13:38 – 20:43)

Katie discusses the mechanisms in place to enforce the rule of law, including contempt proceedings against administration officials who defy court orders. She explains that while individual lawyers may face sanctions or loss of licenses, higher-level officials like Department heads (e.g., Kristi Noem) are more directly accountable. The discussion underscores the importance of judicial independence and the role of lifetime-appointed judges in resisting administrative overreach.

Notable Quotes:

Katie Fang [14:56]: "Judges have to grow some balls... there has to be the respect."

Katie Fang [18:04]: "Contempt... you're not going to sit there and sentence, you know, a thousand employees at DHS to contempt. It's going to be the one person."

5. The Role of Judicial Figures and Amy Coney Barrett (20:43 – 26:08)

The conversation turns to the Supreme Court, focusing on Justice Amy Coney Barrett. Katie speculates on Barrett's motivations and suggests that her previous rulings indicate a potential for independence from overt political influence. She contemplates whether Barrett is experiencing "buyer's remorse" regarding her role in advancing Trump's agenda, expressing cautious optimism about her potential to act against unconstitutional actions.

Notable Quotes:

Katie Fang [23:12]: "I feel like she is saying, we gave the keys to the asylum to the crazy guy."

Katie Fang [25:34]: "Maybe she got what she really wanted, but she has some remorse that now we are where we are."

6. Political Accountability and Strategies for Democrats (26:08 – 34:09)

Katie emphasizes the necessity for Democrats to focus on grassroots efforts and local communities rather than relying solely on federal institutions. She argues for authentic engagement with voters by addressing tangible issues affecting their lives, such as healthcare and economic benefits, to encourage voter registration and participation.

Notable Quotes:

Katie Fang [28:58]: "We can't count on DC to do it for us. We have to do it ourselves."

Katie Fang [33:25]: "Here's what's important: we have to lean into our immediate local communities."

7. Authenticity vs. Consultant-Driven Messaging in Democratic Politics (34:09 – 43:01)

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the tension between authentic messaging and the sanitized, consultant-influenced communication strategies employed by many Democratic politicians. Katie criticizes the disconnect between genuine advocacy and the controlled narratives pushed by consultants, advocating for a return to sincere, unfiltered discourse to better connect with voters.

Notable Quotes:

Katie Fang [39:05]: "What is so controversial about me saying get rid of fraud, waste, and abuse? I prosecuted people for fraud."

Katie Fang [43:01]: "What is so novel about any of this? Like, I just don't understand why we live in these extremes where you cannot have a common sense down the middle approach without being feared that."

8. Conclusion and Guest Promotion (43:01 – 46:10)

As the episode wraps up, Katie Fang encourages listeners to follow her on Substack and YouTube, where she continues to provide in-depth legal analyses and interviews. The hosts express gratitude for her insights and reiterate the importance of her work in promoting the rule of law and authentic political engagement.

Notable Quotes:

Katie Fang [46:10]: "You have to do it in the legal and appropriate way."

Tim Fullerton [45:46]: "Please follow Katie on her new YouTube channel and Substack."

Key Takeaways

• Executive Orders vs. Laws: E.O.s lack the legislative backing of laws and can be legally challenged if they overstep.
• Judicial Independence: Courts continue to act as a check on executive overreach, exemplified by recent legal victories against the Trump administration.
• Accountability Mechanisms: Higher-level officials are more susceptible to legal consequences than individual lawyers within the administration.
• Supreme Court Dynamics: Justice Barrett may exhibit independence that could influence future rulings against unconstitutional actions.
• Grassroots Mobilization: Democrats should prioritize local community engagement and authentic messaging to bolster voter participation.
• Authentic Communication: Moving away from consultant-driven narratives to genuine discourse can enhance connection with the electorate.

Follow Katie Fang:

• Substack: Katie Fang's Substack
• YouTube: Katie Fang's YouTube Channel

Follow The Find Out Podcast:

• Available on all major podcast platforms. Stay tuned for upcoming episodes!