S5 Ep11: The Kyrgyzstan PhD Problem (with Jen Psaki)

Summary

The Focus Group Podcast: S5 Ep11 - The Kyrgyzstan PhD Problem (with Jen Psaki)
Host: Sarah Longwell
Guest: Jen Psaki, Former Biden White House Press Secretary
Release Date: March 29, 2025

---

Introduction

In the eleventh episode of Season 5, Sarah Longwell, publisher of The Bulwark, engages in a deep and insightful conversation with Jen Psaki, the former White House Press Secretary under President Biden, host of Inside with Jen Psaki on MSNBC, and The Bulwark's new podcast, The Blueprint with Jen Psaki. The discussion centers around the Democratic Party's strategies, communication challenges, and lessons learned from the 2024 election loss.

---

Democratic Strategies Leading Up to the 2024 Election

Sarah Longwell opens the discussion by highlighting the central debates within the Democratic Party post-2024 elections:

• Campaign Moderation: Was Kamala Harris’s approach too moderate?
• Strategic Partnerships: The decision to campaign alongside Liz Cheney.
• Voter Turnout: Did the focus on certain demographics lead to ineffective voter mobilization?

Jen Psaki reflects on the Democratic Party's messaging and the importance of authenticity in political communication:

Jen Psaki [01:18]: “I love podcasting... it's not like people telling you three minutes left... you can have longer conversations.”

She emphasizes the shift from formalized media interactions to more genuine and extended dialogues facilitated by platforms like podcasting.

---

The Role of Kamala Harris and Campaign Decisions

A significant portion of the conversation delves into Kamala Harris's campaign strategies and their impact on the election outcome.

Jen Psaki critiques the decision to emphasize the fight for democracy by partnering with Liz Cheney:

Jen Psaki [08:15]: “Do you think those events were really the right emphasis from a public standpoint?”

She suggests that while defending democracy is crucial, the public messaging perhaps lacked focus on tangible economic policies that directly affected voters.

Sarah Longwell challenges this by questioning whether the partnership with Cheney was truly a pivotal factor:

Sarah Longwell [35:20]: "I do blame the Democrats for not handling the situation better... it would show assertiveness as a leader."

The discussion reveals a tension between addressing broad ideological threats and focusing on immediate, relatable issues impacting voters' daily lives.

---

Communication and Messaging Strategies

The podcast critically examines the Democratic Party's communication approach, highlighting the need for relatability and clarity.

Jen Psaki argues against the over-formalized and academic language that can alienate voters:

Jen Psaki [18:40]: “... there's this ivory tower academic way of talking about issues that you need to untangle from Democrats.”

She advocates for politicians to showcase personal sides and engage in conversations that resonate on a human level rather than sticking strictly to policy jargon.

Sarah Longwell concurs, emphasizing the importance of authentic and relatable messaging:

Sarah Longwell [54:03]: “Find the one thing that you're deeply passionate about... what really matters to you.”

This segment underscores the necessity for Democrats to balance policy discussions with personable and accessible communication to build stronger connections with the electorate.

---

Insights from Focus Groups on Voter Behavior

The episode features focus group segments where former Biden voters explain their reasons for not supporting Kamala Harris in 2024. Key themes include:

1. Lack of Connection and Authenticity:

   • Voters felt they did not truly know Kamala Harris as a leader.
   • Voter Quote [35:49]: “I felt like she kind of gave up or just didn't really have it anymore, like she didn't care almost.”

2. Insufficient Time to Establish Leadership:

   • Harris was perceived as having limited time to build a comprehensive platform.
   • Voter Quote [37:20]: “I felt like she was reaching out to all of these different factions that were not relatable to a lot of voters.”

3. Messaging Misalignment:

   • Emphasis on abstract issues like democracy over concrete economic policies.
   • Voter Quote [38:05]: “All of that stuff is happening right now.”

4. Perceptions of Mixed Messaging:

   • Campaign efforts seen as desperate or gimmicky, hindering genuine voter engagement.
   • Voter Quote [42:59]: “It was a desperate effort, which seems to be maybe to be in the same category as gimmicky.”

These insights reveal that voters sought more authentic leadership and policies that directly addressed their economic and personal concerns rather than broad ideological battles.

---

Perceptions of the Current Political Landscape and Trump Administration

The focus groups also explored voters' views on the Trump administration, revealing significant concerns:

1. Authoritarianism and Democratic Threats:

   • Voter Quote [58:28]: “January 6th stands strong in my own personal view of Donald Trump.”

2. Policy Critiques:

   • Dissatisfaction with immigration policies, military roles, and economic strategies.
   • Voter Quote [60:08]: “I don't believe that transgender people don't have a role in the military.”

3. Leadership and Integrity:

   • Perceptions of Trump as a destabilizing force undermining democratic institutions.
   • Voter Quote [59:04]: “He threatened his own vice president when he didn't win the election... I can't get beyond that.”

Jen Psaki acknowledges these concerns and discusses the Democratic Party's need to address them more effectively:

Jen Psaki [64:35]: “I don't think the Democrats have quite figured out how to run against Trump... how to talk about what they have the power to do or not.”

---

Conclusions and Lessons for the Democratic Party

The episode concludes with Jen Psaki offering reflections and advice based on the focus group findings:

1. Embrace Authenticity:

   • Politicians should present their true selves, showcasing personal interests and relatable aspects to connect with voters.

2. Focus on Tangible Policies:

   • Shift messaging from abstract ideological concepts to concrete policies that address voters' immediate needs.

3. Engage Proactively:

   • Democrats should seize the moment to lead and communicate effectively, avoiding risk-averse strategies that fail to inspire voters.

4. Leverage Public Presence:

   • Utilize diverse platforms to engage with voters genuinely, moving beyond traditional, formal media interactions.

Jen Psaki emphasizes the importance of moving forward with these lessons to rebuild and strengthen the Democratic coalition:

Jen Psaki [74:21]: “It's not just good messaging. It's the kind of thing that should get you exercised. Like, yes, organically... have something to say.”

The discussion underscores a critical need for the Democratic Party to evolve its communication strategies, prioritize authenticity, and focus on policies that resonate deeply with the electorate to regain momentum in future elections.

---

Notable Quotes

• Jen Psaki [02:12]: “It's not that there isn't an appetite for content about politics. It's about how it's being delivered and this like hunger for authenticity.”

• Sarah Longwell [54:03]: “Find the one thing that you're deeply passionate about... what really matters to you.”

• Voter [35:22]: “I felt like she was reaching out to all of these different factions that were not relatable to a lot of voters.”

• Jen Psaki [64:35]: “I don't think the Democrats have quite figured out how to run against Trump... how to talk about what they have the power to do or not.”

• Voter [58:28]: “January 6th stands strong in my own personal view of Donald Trump.”

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of The Focus Group Podcast offers a comprehensive analysis of the Democratic Party's challenges and the complex dynamics that influenced the 2024 election outcome. Through the expertise of Jen Psaki and the candid insights from focus group participants, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the critical areas needing attention for the party's future success.

Transcript

[Jen Psaki]

Check engine light on. Take the guesswork out of your check engine light with O'Reilly Variscan.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's free.

[Jen Psaki]

Ask for O'Reilly Veriscan today.

[Unknown]

Auto Parts.

Hello everyone, and welcome to the focus group podcast. I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. And this week we are going to lean in to a debate that has been at the heart of the Democrats recriminations and readjustments since the 2024 election. Did Kamala Harris make a mistake by going on tour with Liz Cheney as her closing argument? Was her campaign too moderate? And did it focus on turning out the wrong people? And what are the lessons Democrats are taking from their loss in 2024 as they work to rebuild a coalition that can win against the current MAGA dominance? Which also goes to the heart of what are Democrats doing right now? How can we make things better? So my guest today is Jen Psaki, former Biden White House press secretary, host of Inside with Jen Psaki on MSNBC and host of their new podcast the Blueprint with Jen Psaki. Welcome to podcasting, Jen.

[Jen Psaki]

I love podcasting. First of all, I wear jeans and sneakers, which I'm also trying to normalize on sets in Washington, D.C. you and me, both sisters, they're very normalized in New York, in D.C. we're a little more formal. And I just love that you can have longer conversations. And it's not like people telling you three minutes left, two minutes left, and you're like, I'm just going to talk about the state of our democracy in four and a half minutes, which is really hard to do.

[Unknown]

I'm glad you brought that up. And this goes to the heart, I think, of why podcasting is taking off. And no offense to the other part of what you do, but I would say that sort of cable is in decline or just in general sort of the TV news, because you do. You've got somebody in your ear being like, rap, rap, you know, whatever, as you're trying to have a thoughtful, drawn out, deep conversation. And I think people realize that it's just pretty tough in that environment to say things that are really meaningful and capture the nuance of all the different ways we're thinking about these things 1000%.

[Jen Psaki]

And I think what the rise of podcasting and YouTube and other forms of consumption tells us, though, is it's not that there isn't an appetite for content about politics. I mean, look at what you guys do at the Bulwark and your podcast and your what you write. And it's more about how it's being delivered and this like hunger for authenticity, right?

[Unknown]

Yep.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, you know, a lot of the hosts on msnbc, we can do that. It's just taking out some of the over formality of things that makes it feel inaccessible. And, you know, that's why we do all sorts of things. We do the podcast, we do the show, we do YouTube videos, whatever. Nobody's like, I don't want to hear anything about news or Washington or politics. It's about like how they're getting it.

[Unknown]

Why did you start a podcast? You're a rising star at msnbc. Like they're giving you the prime slots and then you're like, but also I'll have a podcast. Why?

[Jen Psaki]

Yes. Well, one, I love going on podcasts and I find that they make me think about things in a different way and it allows me to have conversations that are even hard for me to do when I'm appearing on other people's shows. Not the fault of the host, but just it's like, Jen, what is the state of the Democratic Party? And we have to rap in 90 seconds. But really, for me, after the election, I think Tim Miller was on set with me when I called the election. Am I remembering this correctly? I think he was. He was in the green room with us when we were writing is around.

[Unknown]

When all bad things happen. So that sounds about right.

[Jen Psaki]

Tim always says that his prime time is like after 2:00am And I'm like, great. Because that is when I am often hosting MSNBC things. Anyway, after the election for me and to like so many people and this is part of what we're going to talk about. I was like, what the hell just happened and what do we learn from it?

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

And I did not know all the answers. I don't think still one person has all the answers. But I felt like it was a moment to question.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

And was there sexism, racism? Yes, of course. You know, was that the only reason? I don't think so. And I think there were a lot of questions. So really what I did, I think it was maybe the week after the election, I called up Alex Lupica, who, you know, who's our ep, and John Ball, who does our digital stuff, is great and 24 and young and smart. And I was like, what do you guys think about doing a podcast, right. Where we explore this question of what the heck just happened, but more importantly, what we learned from it. And so I had this kind of back of a napkin or I have all of these note cards in here. I'm like a user of note cards, like, and I'm an old lady, where I think I just wrote people who I was interested in talking to because they'd said some things, they'd been edgy or I thought they'd be candid or be able to accept they didn't know all the answers. And I was like, let's reach out to them. They all didn't say yes, but a lot of them did. And that's how it ended up. So we did nine episodes. We're gonna relaunch it in the fall. It was only gonna be short. It was gonna be like six episodes. And then we were like, oh, well, we also wanna talk to this person. We wanna talk to this person. But it was really for me to explore these conversations with people who I think have also thought about it. So it was fun. I mean, you know, some of these conversations go really quickly and you learn as you're going and that's what makes it so enjoyable. And hopefully people listening feel the same way.

[Unknown]

Yeah, well, I'm not going to cry about the fact that I was not one of the people that you invited to talk about this.

[Jen Psaki]

And instead, yeah, you were on my list, but we only had nine episodes, so.

[Unknown]

So I'm the 10th most interesting person. I accept that. I accept that.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, first of all, I think as I've told you many times, the point is going to become embarrassing. I have a massive non sexual crush on you because I think you're so smart and amazing. And so, you know, here we are. And to be podcasting on my podcast in the future.

[Unknown]

Yeah, well, I can't wait for that. That's very nice of you, but I got to tell you, I invited because I want to argue with you.

Great.

[Jen Psaki]

I love arguing. I don't always have the opportunity.

[Unknown]

Go ahead, because I've been watching you. You've been doing your own personal analysis too. And I saw one in particular. I've seen many. And so I feel like this is not unrepresentative, but you'll clarify if it is of you talking to Jon Stewart.

[Jen Psaki]

Oh.

[Unknown]

And so I'm gonna play that just really quickly.

[Jen Psaki]

So meta. Let's do it.

[Unknown]

Yeah, let's listen.

[Jen Psaki]

I also think Liz Cheney is very heroic.

[Unknown]

Wait, what?

[Sarah Longwell]

How did that.

[Unknown]

Wait, where did that come from?

[Jen Psaki]

But I don't think closing the campaign with a message about fighting democracy with a former Republican member of Congress was the right strategy. I stand by that.

[Unknown]

Okay, great.

[Jen Psaki]

No, no, no.

[Unknown]

So I want to unpack this. And you, you went on and talked about this with Tim. So it's not like you've never been in the bulwark universe speaking to this. But, you know, I moderated one of those conversations between Liz Cheney and Kamala Harri. And I think I probably came on your show and we talked about this as a strategy. Like, I did not pitch it like, hey, go on tour with Liz Cheney. But I was pleased to be there and did not think that Kamala Harris trying to appeal to sort of center right voters who don't like Trump. Most of my campaigns focused on these people. And so this feels sort of like squarely a strategic repudiation of a lot of sort of, I would say maybe my thinking going into the election, although my thinking is much bigger and broader than who I chose to narrowly focus on myself. But tell us why you thought of all the things that you could say was the reason that this failed, you've sort of chosen to settle on that as a highlight of why it went south.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, first of all, I think there's many reasons and I don't think that's at all the only reason. And I don't even know if there was actual data or an understanding of that that that would be the reason. So it's just my gut. And first of all, I thought those events were really interesting. I think Liz Cheney's book was excellent. I think she's so fascinating and I've interviewed her and I love talking to her. What I mean by that is the most valuable thing in a candidate's life, as you know, is their time.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

And there was a decision which I didn't disagree with at the time either.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

So this is me reflecting on looking back, there was a decision that a big part of the closing message was going to be with Liz Cheney and talking about the threats to democracy and the rise of authoritarianism. Do I think those are massive issues? Boy, now they're even more massive issues than I thought they were going to be leading into the election. I mean, that's a separate conversation, but it's like way worse than I thought. I just think it was the wrong emphasis from a public standpoint.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

To me, one of the takeaways that I think and hope and I do think a lot of Democrats are reflecting on because there's been sort of a shift in their messaging or emphasis in messaging, which is a big part of it.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

And the key thing here, as you know, is it's not about just because they don't talk about the climate crisis every day. It doesn't mean, it's not an issue.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

It's about what you're emphasizing publicly about your agenda and because of all the people who stayed home. And I think the assumption. But tell me if you disagree with this, you are way deeper in the data than I am. And this is a separate issue. That white women might turn out and vote for Kamala Harris, which was not in any way what happens because of abortion rights. I think there was need for some reflection on who didn't turn out. And the Democrats had kind of de. Emphasized, lost the thread, couldn't figure out how to talk about the economy, were disconnected from a swath of voters who they once won. The last thing I'll say, and then debate. I love a debate. I miss Peter Doocy. Hi, Peter.

[Unknown]

I'm sure he's listening to this podcast.

[Jen Psaki]

He might be. You never know. So really what I meant was emphasis and people feeling like they were not heard. Now, there's also kind of. Weren't these voters who were gonna vote for Harris already going to vote for Harris? I don't know. We can debate that and discuss that. And again, you're further in the data than I am. But there were a lot of people in every demographic group who did not feel heard or that their struggles were acknowledged. And so my thing was, should we think about emphasizing that at a greater percentage of the public communication?

[Unknown]

Yeah. Okay. So the reason I think this matters to be clear is that I think that people have used the. Like she campaigned with Liz Cheney as kind of a stand in for a separate part of the debate, which is like, were we too moderate versus were we too progressive? And that is important because I think that is a calculation going forward of the direction the party moves.

[Jen Psaki]

And so can I just say just. Yeah, because I think this is a really important part of it. I have a lot of very progressive views. I do not think that every progressive view is right for a presidential candidate. And certainly not right to emphasize, I think, be who you are, obviously, authentically, for people running in tough races. Like, I think the Democratic Party was so out of touch with the country on immigration.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

It doesn't matter what my views are. I'm not running for office.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

I'm not running to represent Ohio or Missouri or Pennsylvania. My point about campaigning with Liz Cheney is not about your platform. It's about what you're emphasizing.

[Unknown]

Yes. Publicly. But can I say on this point, this is. I think the nub of my pushback is.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Emphasis on what went wrong in order to figure out what we decide about going forward as part of the best strategy for the broad pro democracy coalition, sort of beat back what's happening.

[Jen Psaki]

Yep.

[Unknown]

I think that, like, getting to these answers are really important. And I think if the emphasis of our analysis is, well, she campaigned with Liz Cheney, which I also think a lot of people again interpret as she moved it to a more moderate place becomes the reason for people to say we needed to be more progressive. Appearing with a former Republican. This is a huge mistake. I think in our analysis, Kamala Harris and how she comported herself over those last hundred days is almost immaterial.

[Jen Psaki]

It may be. You mean how she campaigned.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I mean, I think like taking our lessons from the last like 10 days of how she campaigned as whether or not that is like the reason she lost in the focus groups. I've literally never heard a person say, I did not vote for Kamala Harris because she campaigned with Liz Cheney. I've heard hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people talk about Biden's age, his policies, the border, her underutilization, the fact that she was supposed to be in charge of the border.

[Jen Psaki]

That doesn't surprise me. I'm not saying it turned people off. Look, I think she far surpassed my expectations of anybody who was going to be put in that position. And she did probably what I would have thought anybody should do at that time. But she was a law and order candidate in some ways.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

Who emphasized publicly the fight for democracy, a huge issue. My point is not about being moderate versus progressive or that people shouldn't campaign with Republicans. I actually think campaigning with Republicans is good. But my point is about what you're talking about and like what you're emphasizing in terms of the policy issues. That's my point. And Liz Cheney is a million things that are great. She's also not like an economic messenger, you know, or a health care messenger for the majority of the country.

[Unknown]

I think that's true. And I do think this gets to something that is really important, which is the thing about campaigning with Liz Cheney. The one of the things that made news coming out of our conversation was that Liz Cheney kind of sort of sided with Kamala a little bit on abortion and Republicans freaked out about it and used it as a. She's a rhino. And I think Liz was really just making a point about people not having access to life saving care. But Liz Cheney couldn't go on tour with Kamala Harris and say, I endorse her economic strategy. Democracy was basically like this big broader issue was the thing. And the threat of Donald Trump was the thing that bound them. And so it was the only thing to talk about. That being said, I gave an entire TED Talk on the fact that democracy was not a good issue. It was about how Americans don't care about democracy, the word.

[Jen Psaki]

I have not watched this TED Talk, as you know, I'm obsessed with you. I'll just keep saying it. I'm going to watch this TED Talk because I've made this point, and people are like, democracy does matter. I'm like, no, of course it matters. It's just like, how does it matter to people? You know? And like you have said in how many focus groups and how many of you run in your life? I don't even know. Hundreds.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I mean, I do, like three a week.

[Jen Psaki]

So I have spent most of my career, even though people are like, you're an inside Washington person. I'm like, fine, but I've spent most of my career as like a political camp campaign rat. And that, to me, is what's most interesting. When I'm trying to learn what's going on, I talk to people running campaigns or working on campaigns who are on the ground or state party chairs. And what I mean is that point, right? It's like people are not sitting around being like, you know what I'm gonna march about. Some people are, okay, but like, not the people who are on the border of they're gonna turn out or not like, I'm gonna march about authoritarianism. They would march about things that authoritarianism provokes or creates. And I found this for myself too. This is self reflection too, right? It's like I did. I don't even know how many scripts of being like, donald Trump is an authoritarian dictator. It's like, what does that mean to people?

[Unknown]

We ask people a lot, like, what do you think about authoritarianism? And do you know what their response is?

[Jen Psaki]

What is it?

[Unknown]

What is authoritarianism?

[Jen Psaki]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Like, what does that mean? So we'll define it for them and we'll be like, okay, so now that you know what authoritarianism is, who would you say is an authoritarian? And if it's a group of Trump voters, they'll be like Hillary Clinton.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Like Joe Biden. Any Democrat. And if you ask a Democrat, they'll tell you Donald Trump. But they might also tell you Ron DeSantis, in generally would not make a distinction necessarily between Donald Trump and maybe other Republicans.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, yeah. Am I remembering this correctly? In the exit polls, which I know are imperfect, but sometimes there's some interesting stuff. Weren't voters sort of Split on who was the greater threat to democracy.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Jen Psaki]

This is like a point about the word. Right. And the phrasing of it.

[Unknown]

So I was just somewhere and I was talking about this. So I've been doing now the focus groups for over 6 years. Ish. Ever since I was trying to do math.

[Jen Psaki]

Now. Three weeks. Six years?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

Hundreds.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I mean, I wasn't always doing three, but, like, now that I've sort of scaled them, but I've just been doing them for such a long time. And in 2020, I was like, ooh, voters do not care about democracy. Like, they're just like, it's just not in there, you know? So leading into the 2020 election, I would have just said, like, people don't care. And it didn't mean that they didn't. Again, like you said, they know democracy by its fruits and not really by its roots. And they understand that, like, democracy is just. It's a thing we do here, you know, so they understand it in the context of America, which Republicans talk in terms of America, Democrats talk in terms of democracy. But by 2022, when it became a real messaging focal point in the wake of, like, people saying that the election was stolen, and January 6th, then it started to get polarized. So it went from, like, not being a thing to being a thing. But Republicans thought Democrats were a threat to democracy because they stole the 2020 election. And Democrats thought Republicans were a threat to democracy because of January 6th. So 2022 were polarized by 2024. And then I swear to God, we're 20 minutes deep and still haven't listened to any focus groups.

[Jen Psaki]

Oh, okay.

[Unknown]

It's all my fault. But by 2024, actually, they thought that Democrats were the bigger threat to democracy, in part because there was no presidential primary in which Kamala Harris was made the nominee. Right. This switching out. And Republicans did a lot to bolster this point.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

With just kind of like, independent, swingish voters that, like, the lack of a primary was a threat to democracy. And a lot of people, frankly, if they didn't like Kamala Harris, they were annoyed. They didn't get, like, an open choice. And so they saw it that way. And so I would say that, yes, now democracy is just this political beanbag, like everything else, polarized like everything else. And you just can't think that when you say democracy, voters are thinking the same thing you are when you say it. You. Whoever you are.

[Jen Psaki]

You know, the other thing I've thought a lot about is. And I wrote a book a year ago and one of the things I wrote a chapter about is like, this view by some, and I would put a lot of Democrats in this category, that you need to speak in kind of formal, fancy language in order to impress people. Right. And to make people feel you're smart.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

When actually most studies say the opposite is true.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

In that. The example I think of in my book is like, I worked at the State Department for a couple years. It's like, there are experts on Kyrgyzstan there.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

How many experts are in America and The Kyrgyzstan? Probably 10.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

If you're an expert on that, you can't talk like you have a PhD in Kyrgyzstan. You need to bring people in and open the door to the conversation. And sometimes I think there's this, like, ivory tower academic way of talking about issues that you need to untangle from Democrats. Do not. Because these issues aren't hugely important, like the fight for democracy, which is literally at risk right now. I mean, or the threat of authoritarianism, which is a real thing. But because it sounds like you're defending a PhD thesis.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

So that's the. Yeah.

[Unknown]

So I want to ask one other thing. Just because you were kind of around this stuff, I believe that talking about democracy generally was a mistake. People heard from Biden on almost nothing. And then when they did hear from him, it was like this lofty thing about democracy. But here was my bigger beef that I don't hear discussed that often, which is that the Democrats talked a lot about saving democracy, but did not do the things that would actually save democracy. That. Like.

[Jen Psaki]

Like what?

[Unknown]

Well, like Joe Biden not running again, for one.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, okay.

[Unknown]

But I'm sorry, this is where the fight kind of gets real. Is.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I bristle at the notion that somehow Liz Cheney is like people's avatar for why Democrats didn't win, as opposed to the insane notion that this guy should run for a second term when voters were like, is he alive? I mean, you can hear in these focus groups, people say he's sick all the time. They think he was sick.

[Jen Psaki]

Which was. This won't surprise you. His age was the biggest issue in any of the weekly polling data that we got at the White House. Again, Liz Cheney, national hero. Give the woman an award. Okay. I'm not. And I think they're avatars, which I think is a really important thing for people to hear. And I've probably done this, too. I've got a little self criticism here. It's like, there's like a shorthanding of like, the Democrats needed Joe Rogan and we should never see Liz Cheney again. And it's like, it's like, guys, that's not. That's not addressing the issue, and that's not even the root of the problem.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

You know, Joe Biden, look, there are issues with disinformation. There are issues with media coverage, frankly. I mean, Joe Biden did probably hundreds of events on the economy which weren't covered.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

Should you do different events? Yes, that's on them. You got to be modernizing. But also, this fight and battle over democracy that, like, could loop In Trump and January 6th was edgier for people to cover, Right?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

So it's hard to gauge.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

I'm not saying the communication strategy was perfect. I just think that's also a factor.

[Unknown]

But maybe they didn't want to cover it in part because listening to Joe Biden became actively painful.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, but he was still the president. Right. So, like, you can debate all the media things. Okay, we're going to get to focus groups. But the other thing, I would say a Joe Biden of 25 years ago or 20 years ago, and the way he talks about economic issues and working people was probably more in line. Not exactly. And I have issues with, like, some of that messaging, which is a little la la landy and like, we're going to bring back your manufacturing plants. It's like, no, actually, that's probably not going to happen. So, like, there needs to be a modernizing of how it's talked about on a policy level. But the man talked about things 20 years ago, 10 years ago, five years ago. That was more his comfort place.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

His speeches on democracy. He did care about it, but it's like he'd been writing op eds on the minimum wage for 60 years, you.

[Unknown]

Know, so why isn't that the critique, though, that that version of Joe Biden was just mia?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, my point is that it was. It should have been emphasized more. It was more authentically him.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

But that the message everybody was hearing was this election is about democracy and abortion rights.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

Two issues I care deeply about. Joe Biden was clearly, as a deep Catholic, I mean, pro choice, but, like, not as comfortable as a lot of people talking about abortion rights, you know, and so would it have changed the outcome? I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying, like, the interesting point here is that his message that helped him probably get elected in, like, 2020 and helped him stay kind of in the fray of being a presidential candidate for decades is actually closer to, like, Sherrod Brown than it is to a lot of the democracy speeches that became what he broke through with.

[Unknown]

Why did people decide to lean in on the democracy messaging?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, I left in May of 2022. There was an appetite, a need, a desire for him to meet the moment as a leader.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

A year away from January 6th, which I think is warranted.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

You're still the President of the United States. People need to hear from you on what needs to happen, how to approach it. He did very much believe that.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

Abortion rights and running on that seem to help prevent the red wave.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

A hundred percent and probably leaning into democracy as well. Now, there's many reasons for that. It's like, because it's a smaller pool of people, the more hardcore voters turn out. People were very pissed. Still are. About abortion rights. It's a much larger pool of people running in a presidential who turnout. So I don't know that that was wrong. Why he ran on that after that, I don't know. Keeping the Democratic Party base on his side. I don't know. I wasn't part of those conversations. I can see why they happened.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

Because in a lot of polls, as you know, and polls are imperfect.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, focus groups, to me, much more interesting because you're people actually talking about it. It's like democracy was often like the number one issue.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

But it's like you're reading that and you're like, we got to talk about it.

[Unknown]

Right.

This is where I think people overread. The democracy thing is that they didn't realize when people say democracy, they mean what I mean, think about democracy. They think Trump's a threat to democracy. They didn't realize democracy. As the Republicans began talking about it in terms of Democrats being a threat to democracy, it raised an overall salience in polling that people cared about democracy, but people didn't realize. And this is why focus groups are an important compendium to your quantitative stuff, is to realize that actually a bunch of the people saying they care about democracy are Republicans who think the election was stolen and not Democrats or independent swing voters who are saying it's a top issue.

[Jen Psaki]

People have different feelings about it. It's like this is the thing for all of the bumper stickers a lot of Democrats may have about democracies are whatever. Like the Republicans might too. I mean, this is the thing, like, the word has been kind of misconstrued. And so that's a huge lesson, a huge takeaway.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

Which you knew before the election. But, like, it's a huge takeaway now.

[Unknown]

Yeah. This show is sponsored by Quince. Vacation season is nearly upon us and this year I'm treating myself to the luxe upgrades I deserve with Quince's high quality travel essentials at full fair prices like lightweight European linen styles from $30 washable silk tops and comfy lounge sets with premium luggage options and stylish tote bags to carry it all. The best part, all Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quint cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and and premium fabrics and finishes. I love that and I even got my favorite leather jacket from them. For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quints. Go to quint.com the focus group for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com the focus group to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com focus focus group. Okay, we are going to listen to some focus groups. I'm going to keep asking you other stuff as we go.

[Jen Psaki]

Great. Love it.

[Unknown]

You are one of my favorite people to talk to though.

[Jen Psaki]

Oh, you too.

[Unknown]

You know why? Because if, if you were going to give me one of my like why do I think things lost? I think it was a wild calculation to be so conservative, small C conservative about media appearances and comms and this might be that I'm a comms person and so you know, hammer, nail, everything, et cetera. But you're a comms person and you are a very good communicator in a world of Democrats that I think are not strong communicators and where I think that this is like the thing Democrats have to figure out is how they communicate.

[Jen Psaki]

Thank you for that. I think it was a factor. I don't think it was as big a factor as you may think it is that. I disagree on that slightly in terms of the rank order. But I do think in the pool of moving forward what strikes me is like if you're not going to run fearlessly and like appear on every platform and put yourself out there. And I'm not saying you have to curse if you don't curse. Who doesn't curse? My mother in law doesn't curse. She says sugar instead of shit. But like most people, you know what I mean, if you don't just speak like a Human being and talk authentically about things and also show a personal side. And I don't mean inauthentically. There are some things that I've seen out there. I'm like, so cringy. Like this effort to kind of do things on social media where I'm like, stop. You know, try everything, I guess for now. One of the things, Dan Pfeiffer, who you've probably had.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I talked to Dan a lot.

[Jen Psaki]

Who'S like, so smart. He was my boss many years ago, which every time I talk to him, I remind him of. But he's just like, every time I talk to him, I'm like, I didn't think of it that way. And it's very smart. He said last time I talked to him, Democrats running for president, let's just say other things too. Pick one thing that's a human thing you do, right? You love sports, you love music, you're in a book club, you're a chef, you're an animal lover. Part of that is showing your human side, which Democrats sometimes are fearful of doing. They're always trying to make everybody see how smart they are, you know, and sometimes people are like, yeah, we're smart. You're smart. Or like, are you human being? Do you care about what I care about? What's your story as a real person?

[Unknown]

I'm just going to observe the fact that Democrats need to be told, hey, have a personality. Or like, hey, have a hobby that you communicate to. Feels. Feels really, really like the problem.

[Jen Psaki]

But, Sarah, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Democrats, a lot of them were like the student in school who was in the front row raising their hand, right?

[Unknown]

I know Republicans. We were the ones who took those kids and pushed them into lockers.

[Jen Psaki]

We don't want people push people into lockers who are governing states. We want the people raising their hands, but we want to know that the person raising their hand, like, also loves soccer or chess or books or whatever.

[Unknown]

I think so. Relatable.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, you know what I mean? I mean, there's like nerds out there. We can embrace the nerds, too. And I think too often there is also very bad advice that is given. Not. There's a lot of great consultants out there by like, stay on message. The worst, worst media training advice I'm obsessed with this people give is answer the question you want to answer. That is the freaking worst advice, especially for this moment in time. Because you know what? Who cares if it's you interviewing a person or me interviewing a person? Doesn't matter to us. People sitting at home. If you ask them or I ask them what should be done about Elon Musk and their answer is, we're going to build roads and bridges and defend the Affordable Care Act. People at home are like, what in the hell, right? It's like almost disrespectful to them. So I think some of it is like this overly formal. Like, we are going to follow the talking points. Rip the talking points up.

[Unknown]

Rip the talking points up.

[Jen Psaki]

Decide what you think authentically. You're going to piss people off out there. Guess who pissed people off a lot when I worked for him? Barack Obama. He's not perfect either. I'm not saying that. But like piss people off, it's fine. What do you actually think? And then talk about it in a way you would talk to your friends from college, your mother in law, your sister, whomever. But I think everybody's capable of doing that. This is the thing of working in democratic politics for 20 plus years. These people are human. A lot of them are great human beings who are interesting and funny and quirky and sporty and they love all sorts of things. It's just like, let the quirky flags fly out there. Everybody, we want to see it. And that's I think, part of it. So a small part.

[Unknown]

Okay. So as we get into the sound, I think one of the things that you will hear is people. Because these people just didn't vote.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

One of the things you'll hear is kind of a sense of I didn't really know Kamala Harris.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

As a communications challenge, I love when you're talking about things that I used to say in media trainings 10, 15 years ago, because I used to media train people for stuff and you would say answer. You know, I probably said it too.

[Jen Psaki]

But it's like it takes interviewing people to be like, that was terrible. That was not good for the audience.

[Unknown]

It's also for just a different time where it's a different time. Reason that cable news is, I think, struggling because it has this more formalized environment. People are used to now engaging not just with other people, but also Donald Trump changed the way people were used to interacting with their president, which was semi constantly and in their faces. And because we have all been hijacked by our phones right now, a whole bunch of people are listening to this and they're engaged in a parasocial relationship with us. They feel like they kind of know us. I talk about my kids, I talk about my life. And as a result, people Feel like they know you. And they did not feel like they knew Kamala Harris, but they did feel like they knew Donald Trump, even if they didn't like him. Which is why I think the cautious approach to the media effort, it did seem like more of an attempt to hide her than to illuminate her. And I think that came from a place of people not trusting her as the messenger. Right. So it was kind of like a do no harm strategy with her.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, okay, now we're going to get to focus group.

[Unknown]

No, no, hit me.

[Jen Psaki]

I think looking back, she killed it in the debate.

[Unknown]

Right?

Killed it.

[Jen Psaki]

And they spent however much time preparing for that debate and they did a good job and she was great. Now, looking forward ahead, candidates don't spend two weeks removed from public engagement preparing for a debate. You just can't because people are like suspicious, like, where are you? And yes, they see you in the debate. So I do think she did some stuff initially and then she kind of started to do a lot in the end. I mean, I don't know her super well or anything, but I've been around her. She is very engaging. She's obviously brilliant, she's funny. She obviously has this great laugh. People didn't see all of that. Was it possible to see that in a hundred days? I don't know. But I think if anyone didn't trust her, and I don't know that that's true. I think there just was a, like, we're going to do this our way and do it on our terms and sometimes you just have to kind of let it go, you know, I mean, we used to do. And again, not perfect, but he was like an early iteration of this. When I worked for Obama, I worked for him for 10 years. The last two years was kind of our like, you know, legacy building. But also we'd figured out at that point kind of what worked better for him. The man answers questions in seven minutes. So like 10 minute interviews weren't great for anybody, including him. Yeah, but then we were like, you know what? Yeah, you can have 45 minutes. Fine. He didn't mind. And oftentimes if you're a thoughtful, smart person who's thought about issues with anybody running for president should be Donald Trump. May he be an exception to these rules. But like, even he kind of said interesting things, even if they weren't accurate, policy wise or otherwise after a long time. They get interesting after a while, you know, and I think it's leaving time for that in space and not thinking of things as news of the day interviews. That's checking a box because you don't get a lot out of them. They have very short shelf life.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Jen Psaki]

And, yeah, I could talk about this forever, but, you know, as comms people, you know, it's easy for us to throw out advice, I guess, to future presidential candidates. I have lots. I have advice for all of them. Individually, you just see things. I've done this a lot. You have, too, about, like, the mistakes people make who are brilliant and amazing. It's very hard to run for president and to win.

[Unknown]

Yes, I agree. And I came away from 2024 not wanting to do much critiquing of Kamala Harris at all, because I think that she rose to the occasion. I think she exceeded people's expectations, much to the chagrin of many of our listeners. I have many things to say about Joe Biden and the. The lack of comp strategy. But anyway, okay, we do have to get to sound. Let's do it. So for this show, we convened two groups of people who voted for Joe Biden in 2020, but then didn't vote in 2024. Right. So we're after kind of why. Why didn't people vote?

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. I'm so interested in these people.

[Unknown]

So let's listen to them talk about why they couldn't bring themselves to vote for Kamala Harris. I was going to vote for Harris, but she seemed. I don't know, in the end, she seemed like she kind of gave up or just didn't really have it anymore, like she didn't care almost. So that kind of threw me off. There was no way I was going to vote for Trump again. You know, I voted for him in 2016 like a fool. So that's kind of where it left me.

I like Joe Biden. I understand from many years ago that there were things that he was a part of as related to the African American community. Right. But he also was a vice president under Barack Obama, and I thought that he was very progressive in relation to Obama and everything that Obama wanted to implement. So I felt that it would be a good decision. I thought that he wanted to bring the country together. And Harris, I like Harris. You know, we're in California. We've supported Harris. We supported her from Attorney General to senator. Personally, I just felt like it was premature. I don't think she had enough time to give us a real format of what her true presidency would look like. I heard a lot of words, and that was good, but it was almost kind of like it was a desperate effort. And when you pick up something like that, it sort of pushes you away. Because now where you would probably go with your intuition, you stop and you think, well, maybe, maybe not.

I was somewhat lukewarm on Kamala or Kamala.

However you pronounce it.

I agree she didn't really have a.

Lot of time to build, like, a.

Platform and have people get to know her.

[Jen Psaki]

That said, I live in Seattle.

[Unknown]

Washington's very, very blue. If I lived in a swing state, I would have definitely voted just because.

I didn't feel all that strongly about her.

[Jen Psaki]

I knew where the state was going to land.

[Unknown]

I just didn't feel compelled to cast a vote.

[Jen Psaki]

Same thing. I was 50, 50. And when it came came down to it, in the end for me, I felt like when it was the final hour, I just didn't feel like she had enough to get me to say, this can be our president and this is who I want to entrust the United States to. I didn't want to vote for Trump either.

[Sarah Longwell]

I do blame the Democrats for not handling the situation better. And if Kamala wanted to have a better shot at being perceived as a leader, she should have bit the bullet and did the necessary steps as vice president to take the position away from him and handle what she needs to handle. It would show assertiveness as a leader. However, also with Kamala, I don't really like her personally because of certain policies she had in the past. Being an attorney, allowing an innocent man to die on death row and going through certain steps to prevent there to be an appeal on that, that rubbed me the wrong way already. Plus her own personal exploitations that I won't really get off into. But I'm familiar with her before.

[Unknown]

I regret not voting for Kamala. I just don't think. Again, I don't think she was a great messenger. All the stumbles with live interviews was not. Was not reassuring. I had a couple of issues with her policies specifically around crypto and just the financial system in general, but I just did not think she. She got me excited enough to get out there, especially in a blue state like New York. I just don't think she was an effective messenger. But again, just want to reiterate that I definitely regret not voting for her.

I just think in hindsight, I think she deserved an opportunity. You know, I have voted for Kamala for years. I think where I paused was four months was just not enough time for me to really get a gist of her transitioning from those previous roles into the biggest stage in the world. I also Agree with the young lady who said that her approach was a little bit gimmicky. I think that was a turn off for me as well, because here in California, we've always seen her campaigns as very deliberate, very strong, very decisive, you know, and I think she was reaching out to all of these different factions that were not relatable to a lot of voters and to pull people in. You want to be relatable to everyone, not just a specific demographic.

Then with everything going on in Gaza and knowing that neither candidate was going to make a difference and, you know, try to actually put an end to an obvious genocide, you know, I guess that really just like, hit hard. So, I mean, it was more of like a protest vote for me, you know, so I. I just withheld my vote. And I think the Democrats did really well with choosing a vice presidential candidate. But, you know, however, that just wasn't enough. And he didn't say enough so much to unpack there.

[Jen Psaki]

Where do we begin?

[Unknown]

Where do we begin? I guess I'm just gonna throw a couple things at you that I feel like were representative of lots of things that I've heard. And this is where, you know, I don't hear people say anything about Liz Cheney. We've litigated that. But I hear a lot of people, especially black people, say how annoyed they were at all the celebrities and gimmicks. Actually, I bet you're reading that as like a Liz Cheney tour, aren't you?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, I don't know. I'm not sure I could see that.

[Unknown]

Well, this is the tricky thing about focus groups is when you impute sometimes onto the people. I would say, having listened to a lot of black voters especially express this, they thought that, like Megan Thee Stallion, the celebrity thing was really gimmicky and it really bugged them. Yeah, when you point that out, you get a lot of Dems being like, oh, what about Elon Musk? Or whatever, like, as a celebrity. And I'm like, different. God, I remember there was somebody in one of the groups that said, beyonce ain't paying my bills. Anyway, I don't want to get hung up on that. But tell me just your impressions of what you heard in there that you thought resonated.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, well, God, I love focus groups because it's like all different reasons. Right. There's not always one consistent thread. And that's true of any electorate, which is so important.

[Unknown]

There's not one reason when people say voters believe this. I'm like, well, voters do. Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

I always love that on cable and people, like, have not been in the country or been in focus groups or worked on campaigns or talking campaign people. And they're like, voters believe. And I'm like, oh, really? Have you been talking to every voter out there? Because, you know, things I wrote down, like, premature. Not enough time. Four months isn't enough time. Really interesting. Because what you don't know, the flip side is, if it had been eight months, would that have made a difference? If it had been a year, would that have made a difference? It's an unknowable thing, though. That came up a couple times. I wonder, does it come up, like, regularly? Like, not time constantly.

[Unknown]

The people not knowing her was both a liability and an advantage. It was an advantage in the sense that she got to reintroduce herself to people the way she wanted to. However, there was a lot of, like, I didn't feel like I knew her. I didn't feel like I got a real sense of who she truly was. Because they were dealing with the Kamala they were seeing in front of them. And also old impressions, super cuts. They had seen Republicans defining her. They came away with a little bit of, like, a mishmash of her.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. I mean, what kind of was remarkable that she did do is improved her own approval ratings by, like, a huge amount, which is hard to do. And it clearly wasn't enough. But it was over a very short period of time. Would that have improved by more over more months? Unknowable. The other thing that I thought was interesting was when somebody said it was, like, desperate. Like, it was a desperate effort, which seems to be maybe to be in the same category as gimmicky, maybe. Hard to know, right? But did it feel rushed to people? Did it feel like they were like, look at me and Beyonce. Here I am. Come out and vote. I don't know. Again, you don't know the totality of what voters are thinking. And then where I go with that is, like, what should they have done differently? Here is the challenge. When you're on a campaign, you have to get attention. You want to do rallies that 20,000, 30,000, 40,000 people attend because you want to encourage them to early vote. You want to get them to volunteer. You can't just go do smaller events all around the country because it's kind of inefficient.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

It's just like, what's the alternative? The celebrity thing is very interesting because on one hand, I think celebrities can get buzz about voting and participating in the process, that it's hard for normal Politicians to. And it is amazing that some of them do this.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

They don't have to do this. I mean, to be fair. But then it's like, where does it jump the shark? And I don't know the answer to that. Is it like doing a series of events with them? Is it like putting them in ads? Is it people feeling like the only time they see you is with a celebrity? So when do you use them?

[Unknown]

Right, yeah. I'll just answer this quickly in my impression of it, which is just because I'm doing a lot with listening to voters talk about Elon. What's interesting is Elon is both a celebrity in that he is a cultural figure that people are on a first name basis with. If you say Elon, everyone knows who you're talking about and they know what he does. You get a Taylor Swift endorsement. Okay, Taylor Swift. Everybody also knows who Taylor Swift is.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And people don't necessarily think Taylor Swift knows anything about politics. People think Elon Musk knows a lot about stuff they don't know a lot about.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, and they see him as, I assume, like a hugely successful billionaire. Even though Taylor Swift is a very successful businesswoman, she's not seen that way maybe by as many voters.

[Unknown]

And I would say that's just true of, like, run of the mill celebrities where people are like, you're an actor, you're a singer. Yeah, I know who you are. But like, I don't think you have any special insight into politics in the way that they think about an Elon Musk or even like these bigger name cultural figures, even like rfk. Ultimately, if you listen to the end of this group. Oh, my gosh. If you listen to the end of this group. We asked people who they might have turned out to vote for. There was like no names. But RFK came up. I mean, listening to the focus groups, the number of people Trump was able to bring into his very unruly coalition and I think steal from Democrats was having Elon Joe Rogan, rfk. Like, there was a lot of people who came for that particular toxic brew of those kinds of famous people. All right, focus group listeners, have I got a podcast wreck for you. In wild times like these, do you ever just want to break the rules? I know it can be important to rethink some of the dumb rules that we follow for no good reason. Well, that's exactly what friend of the bulwark Glenn Galich gets into on his show. Break fake rules here, Glenn and guests dig into the self imposed rules that hold us back, particularly in philanthropy, to uncover which rules we should commit to breaking together for a better society. Just be sure to break fake rules in a cool way. Not in an Elon way or because it needs to be said, not in a spray painting other people's Teslas way. You'll even hear from me and other insiders in politics, government, philanthropy, media and more who are refusing to live by fake rules. If you've ever wondered why we live by certain rules or dreamed of what becomes possible when we do things differently, tune into Break Fake Rules new episodes drop monthly, wherever you get your podcasts. All right, let's keep going. Otherwise we are never going to get through this. I wanted to ask people specifically about the terms of our debate. Like, did they care about Liz Cheney? Like, what did they think about that? So we asked directly and here's what.

[Jen Psaki]

They said, especially for me. Thank you.

[Unknown]

I did do this one especially for you.

I mean, if you ask any real Republican out there, they're going to say that Cheney is not a Republican. I mean, like the credibility of having somebody like that, that their base doesn't even really see them as Republicans. I don't. That doesn't really move a needle for me that she's like gonna gain support from the Republicans somehow and I can't really remember who else she was involved with, but it didn't move the needle for me at all. I just didn't want anything to do with it. I kind of stopped looking at things after a while because I knew I wasn't going to vote for either one of them.

One of the things that I really thought was interesting in watching that unfold was that she did what I would have done had I been in her position, which was assume that there was a, you know, a subsect of voters, of Republican voters who did not support Trump and then go and get every well known non Trump supporter to endorse her. And they did. Quite a few of them did. And so that was a play that I thought was smart and that I respected, but it wasn't enough to overcome my lack of faith in her as a person and as somebody who, I forget who said it earlier, but pointed out exactly that she has always been appointed to a position prior to being elected vice president, she had never been in an elected role. I also didn't agree with many of her policies. And so despite the fact that it was a move that I thought was smart, it was not enough to overcome voting for her simply to vote against Donald Trump.

I think especially, you know, in 2020. And in 2024, it just was like Trump just really had so much, you know, momentum and just literally just took over the Republican Party. You know, go figure. You know, it's debatable, you know, why that happened, but, you know, it did. And so, you know, I guess it's just kind of a waste of resources trying to reach across the aisle at that point in time.

Okay, so. But those were the people who even knew about Liz Cheney, because lots and lots of the people in the groups just, like, didn't even really know about it.

[Jen Psaki]

Again, this is not a hack on Queenless Cheney.

[Unknown]

No, I'm not. This is not my big defense.

[Jen Psaki]

No, no, no. But my point is that time fills with something. It takes away time for other things. That's it.

[Unknown]

What would you have filled it with?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, here's where I go back to Harris being. I think one of the most effective topics she talked about passionately was abortion rights. Should abortion rights received as much money and funding and emphasis as it did. I care about this issue deeply. I'm honestly not sure publicly. I always hated when we were like, they didn't talk about the economy. It's like, they didn't really talk about how their policies were going to help people.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

They were talking about defending rights. Hugely important message. But I feel like there was a lack of, these policies are going to help you on health care, on the economy. There's even a climate argument on this. I don't know if this is still the case. When I was still in the White House and even when I worked for Obama, the most effective message on climate was clean air, and drinking water was like a health message.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

My point is, again, I wouldn't have done anything differently if I were on the campaign. I'm just saying, like, what do we learn from in the future?

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

It's like defense of rights. Very powerful message, but maybe took up too much space in, like, what are we actually gonna do for you and the things that you're struggling from? I had J.B. pritzker on our podcast, and I asked him, should Democrats have just said, things are too expensive at the grocery store?

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

And he's like, yeah, yeah, they are.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

And I think there was a hesitancy to acknowledge what people were feeling and how you were going to address it. How do you do that in event. I don't know. I mean, you got to be creative. It's hard to break through on that stuff.

[Unknown]

You're just willing to lie overtly. You just say, I'm going to Lower prices on day one.

[Jen Psaki]

And then they don't.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

Like, I've got. When I go to the grocery store, it's like, I live this. When I go to the grocery store, I'm like, Jesus, the customer of eggs.

[Unknown]

I know. I'm like, this is expensive out there.

[Jen Psaki]

Right. The other thing, because somebody mentioned this, I'm not convinced vice presidential candidates, they don't, like, move the needle typically, but, like, Tim Walls projected himself onto the ticket for essentially being an effective messenger and talking like real people at hardware stores. Not only was there weeks spent prepping for a debate that she killed it in, but he, like, disappeared, completely disappeared for months. And I'm like, that guy. We had him on, as everybody did several times before he became the nominee. I've talked to him since then. He still talks in a way that isn't right for every Democrat, but I sure think is a good model to kind of play with that's much more real. So that was like a kind of whirlwind. I don't know what the events would have looked like, but I think there was like an absence of that.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I mean, my thesis is that her losing had far less to do with. With what she did and far more to do with what she didn't do, which was the level of cautiousness. Like, you just cannot compete with Trump anymore with regular political stuff. Like, you need an everything everywhere, all at once strategy. Like, the high watermark for the Democrats was the audition period for vp.

[Jen Psaki]

Oh, my God. It was a period of joy. I was like, can we continue the audition period forever?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

I just want to talk to. To all these people, and I also feel like they need to come out more now. Some of them are out, but, like, come out, come out wherever you are. People who want to lead the party and lead the country. I know it's only March, but.

[Unknown]

But there's a vacuum. And filling the vacuum. Sorry, I don't know if you guys remember this, but Donald Trump started running for president the second the 20, 22 midterms were over. And when everybody was like, he's down and out. But you know what he did? He crowded everybody else out. He got in early. He filled the vacuum. No one else could get in with that. You want to be the leader of this party? I'm begging all of them to be more ambitious right now.

[Jen Psaki]

Well.

[Unknown]

And less risk averse.

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

And you know, look, people are like, licking their wounds. They're figuring out what they want to say. They're writing books. That's all Fine, it's only March. But, yes.

[Unknown]

I don't think there's any such thing as only march when the authoritarians are in the process of taking.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, okay. I don't want to give them too much license. I just wanted. Didn't want to be too harsh. No. The truth is, I'm like, if anybody has any desire to be a leader in the party, like, do not spend months, like, planning out your plot.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jen Psaki]

Just like, come out and do a bunch of things. Some people are doing some things, but more, more, more people, More things.

[Unknown]

Yeah. My communications consultant advice here, guys. I'm going to give it to you all free. It's completely free. I don't have to pay me anything. Don't listen to any consultants. Find the one thing that you're deeply passionate about in this moment. What is scaring you? What is keeping you up at night? What really matters to you? What do you worry about when you talk to people and just go talk about it?

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. I also think what's kind of exciting about this moment is there is a vacuum for this.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

So there are some people. I'm not saying these people are going to run president or whatever, but, like, Chris Murphy, good on you for being out there and saying lots of stuff that people are thinking about.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

Good on you. I have had Greg Kazar on a couple of times. Did I know who he was before? Yeah, but, like, he's very good.

[Unknown]

Sorry, I don't know who that is.

[Jen Psaki]

He is the chair of the Progressive Caucus. He's a member of Congress. Look him up. He speaks in English. He speaks about issues that people care about. Here's my point. People who do this for a living didn't totally know who this guy is.

[Unknown]

Yeah, that's true.

[Jen Psaki]

He's pretty good. But my point is this. You don't have to, like, be a person who sees themselves in the Oval Office in four years to emerge at this point. Maybe he does. I have no idea. But, like, you can just be a person who is a voice who speaks passionately to your point about whatever the heck it may be. And there are people doing that in fits and starts, I think. More, more, more. The thing that I love, and then I know we have more focus groups, is Democrats going to Republican districts to do town halls. I am so here for this. I think this is the best thing that's happened since the election. More, more, more of that. It's great. And look, Jamie Raskin is a pretty liberal guy.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

He went to a red district and did an event a couple days ago, 900 people showed up. So it's like more of that. It's not scary. They're just people. Maybe they'll ask you tough questions. It's okay.

[Unknown]

Tough questions are okay. See, we are saying them to each other and you see how it works. Then you respond and you talk like normal human beings. It's funny, when you say that he speaks English, I wanna be like, see, I want to sign an executive order. The Democrats must speak English.

[Jen Psaki]

Not English as in English language. I know what you mean. Yes, yes.

[Unknown]

I demand Democrats speak not like aliens, only to college educated voters. Also just to regular people. In regular parlance.

[Jen Psaki]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Okay, so I want to move on to. I actually don't want to move on, but I'm going to, for the sake of this show. I want to move on to these voters perceptions of the current Trump administration. Because what was striking to me is how much some of their fears lined up with actually the much maligned Democratic messaging into the run up of the election. Actually in terms of what we're seeing right now. Let's listen.

What I do like is that this administration exposed how, how weak and outdated the Democratic Party is and how weak their messaging is and how the old guard is basically ineffective in today's politics. I mean, someone said this a few weeks ago and I think it really hits the point. You know, Democrats bring a lollipop to a knife fight. That's what it feels like. When you see Schumer chanting outside of a USAID building and changing his chant halfway through, it's so cringe, it's so weak. It really exposed how these legacy leaders in both the House, Senate and just, just the entire party, they're just so ineffective and just fail to address the moment. But on the flip side, you see, I mean, unfortunately, Bernie is, is so old that there's not much of a future for him. But him and aoc, I mean, they're the real leaders of the party. And you know, you see, you see the pushback on, on Schumer, you see Democrats, I think, really starting to take a, a harder look at themselves.

January 6th stands strong in my own personal view of Donald Trump. He threatened his own vice president when he didn't win the election and when his vice president stood up to him to safeguard our processes and we elected him as a country again. And I can't, I'm shaking. I can't get beyond that. This is the kind of person he is. I think that he will try to go for a third term and I think that he is laying the foundation right now to get the people to believe that he can and that he should. And those are my big concerns.

[Sarah Longwell]

And what I don't like is, again, there's a laundry list of things that he's been doing. It feels like a victory lap at this point. You guys can't do to me what you thought you could. I got convicted, still won. I'm gonna do every and anything I can to go after my political opponents. The young man who just got arrested, the student, I can't remember his name, but as it refers to what's going on in Gaza, he was a green card holder, I believe, and he still was detained and is about to be deported, even though he's technically legally in this country. And they haven't spoken on exactly what his crime was. Well, they said there was no crime committed, but he still was arrested. It's like a witch hunt now. He's going after every and anybody. And that's scary when the executive branch is pretty much saying, judicial and legislative have no say over me. I'm going to do what I want, and until you can stop me, I'm going to keep going. I won't say certain things on here, but it seems like it's a powder keg. It's brewing right now.

[Unknown]

I do fear that the third term problem, you know, think that that was, is, you know, something that, I mean, it's been talked about, you know, since he was president the first time.

I'm big in a pro military. I like the way they're. They're going about things. I believe everybody has a role in the military. I don't believe, you know, that, like, transgender people don't have a role in the military. They do. Everybody does. So those are the two things. I got a laundry list. I'm not going to go through it. But one of the major things is I'm very pro Ukraine. I grew up with Ukrainian people. The way he has handled it, I got very upset. I've been following this all very closely. I've even tried to help with people I know at the DOD to help find missing kids in Ukraine. I mean, it's really close to home, but, I mean, other than that, it seems like he looks at Putin as more of an ally in leadership than he does our actual allies that we've been allies with since World War II or even before then. The, the tariffs, it's just going to make all of us pay more money. And you know what? To his people that is in his circle, they don't Care because they're all billionaires. I, I think I read something that said, like their cat, the cabinet, or the people he's appointed the most billionaires ever in an administration. So, I mean, all these people, they can afford to pay 5, 6, 8 dollars extra for a carton eggs or whatever. January 6th, that hurt me even worse. I. I pledge allegiance to uphold the Constitution of this United States of America. And you know, that was a disgusting day for me and having to go to work that day and just having to see it. I hated the guy, but until that point, I would almost wish bad things upon him. That's all.

Jen. Those people didn't vote. Those people didn't vote. They're shaking with anger. January 6th was disgusting. And this is to me, as I've tried to really dig on, like, what did I miss? Or what did I get ruined? In my analysis, I do think the double haters were like, that was my wheelhouse. I was living with the double haters. Their expression of rage is at Donald Trump. It sounded like this. And I always kind of assumed that when push came to shove, these people would break for Harris.

[Jen Psaki]

Yep.

[Unknown]

And they didn't. They didn't turn out. But to me, and this is the question I want to ask you, is kind of the last big conversation we're going to have, which is. All right, so we've settled our previous conversation and now we're looking forward. I would say that again, me not thinking that Kamala Harris was to blame. I think there was a vote against her that was sort of like just the entire Democratic Party, people feeling that they were ineffectual, kind of weak and woke. Was like the general themes of stuff that we heard. What do you think about Dems right now? What are we doing? What's happening? Schumer. Schumer got brought up here.

[Jen Psaki]

Okay. I would say it's a work in progress. Is my most generous, diplomatic. But here's the thing. Leadership is about meeting the moment in time.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

And the explanation, I don't know if. Did you read the Schumer interview that he did with the Times? I think it came out last Saturday, days ago. In it 1, he refers to how people in his party are learning how to engage on the social media.

[Unknown]

Oh, the social media tells you everything.

[Jen Psaki]

You need to know. He also referenced in the same answer how people had given him numbers so he knew it was doing well. Which, as you know, anybody can go on any social media platform and see how much any video, anything is spreading. And he also basically answered the question of why should you be the one leading the Democratic Party is because he's done it for a long time. That to me is the core of an issue here with the Democrats. I think there are a lot of exciting people who are in different parts of the Democratic Party in governor's mansions, in the House, even in the Senate who are emerging in different ways. I think that's great. Lots of people on the bench in different ways. Do they need to do more as we've been discussing? Yes. But there is this reliance on I've done it before and seniority that is a killer right now, I think in Congress. But in general.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

I don't think the Democrats have quite figured out how to run against Trump, how to talk about what they have the power to do or not, how to talk about what leverage they have or they don't. You're in the minority in the House and Senate. So there's a reality you have very little legislative leverage. You have leverage publicly.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

And the public leverage is what you need to figure out how to use. Now 85,000 people showed up to four or five rallies that Bernie Sanders led. The man is 83 or 84 years old, you know, but that tells you something. There's appetite for something else out there. What is the leverage?

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

Right now. What are the battles you're going to have in Congress coming up? One, there's going to be an effort to extend the high end tax cuts for corporations and for high net worth individuals. That is not popular. You can confirm. Right. What is your plan? What are you projecting to people? What is the message? How are you going to fight it? There's going to be another funding fight in the fall.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

And so I think there is still not figuring out how to meet the moment of using the leverage of this moment. Do I know all the answers? No. But guess what? I'm not in line to be the majority leader or the leader of the Democratic Party in the Senate nor will I ever be on that path. I just think there needs to be better in terms of other people outside. I think they need to be out more and saying things more and doing things publicly more. And now is the time.

[Unknown]

I'm going to let the voters have their say on this because we put this to the voters. We've been asking them, this is going to be the people who didn't vote. But we've been asking a lot of Democratic voters, a lot of like Biden to Trump voters and soft Dems, kind of what they want to see out of the Party, because we're looking. And right now, Elon Musk is deeply unpopular, but he's still more popular than. Broadly, Democrats are certainly Democrats in Congress.

[Jen Psaki]

And that's a depressing statement.

[Unknown]

Okay, so, you know, when you've got a 21% approval rating, as Democrats do, then there's the question of, like, okay, well, where do we go from here? What do we do next? So let's just listen to what these nonvoters said about that.

In terms of people that I see kind of leading the party, definitely aoc. I like just Josh Shapiro. I like him when I. When I hear him speak. I think Pete Buttigieg has a. Has a good shot. Obviously, he's a very, very smart, very savvy politician, political operative. So I like his chances as well. I mean, listen, I definitely still want to see Bernie as old as he is again. He's one of the most effective populist messengers that the party has. So I think he's a very important voice. I think Democratic Party, just in general, but specifically during this cycle, really shot itself in the foot with all of the virtue signaling and addressing topics that don't really speak to their base. I mean, this election was an election of affordability, and they didn't really address that. I was actually listening to a podcast, quite a few podcasts a few days ago about Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson's new book, Abundance. I love Derek Thompson, one of my favorite intellectuals, and they make some really great points. I mean, Democratic Party is great at spending money, but they're not great at building. And I think in. In a time like we have today, where it's a huge time of transition for literally every industry, every. Every constituent base, there needs to be more focus on. On building and innovating and. And having that populist message that really resonates as opposed to. I'm trying to find a way to not offend anyone, but I really. I think economy and things like that, it's just so much more important than arguing about pronouns, things like that, or putting that front and center at expense of addressing housing crisis, addressing climate, all of these things. So.

I love Jasmine Crockett. I don't know that she's ready to be president, but I can tell you she's a fighter.

I'm a pretty liberal. She's very progressive. And so, I mean, I definitely feel like, especially with a younger generation and, you know, the way that they've been reacting, like people that are even too young to vote and just seeing, you know, their opinions and, you know, how they're forming these days. I'd at least like to see the Democratic Party go in a more progressive direction. And I feel it's. It's kind of destined to, in a way, because, you know, they're going to have to eventually appeal to the base. And I'm a big fan of, like, the Squad and Bernie Sanders. Obviously, not even so much aoc. I think there's, you know, like, Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar, Ayanna Pressley, you know, Maxwell Frost. I think a lot of them have very loud voices, and I think I. I see them having, you know, Pramila Jayapal. I see them having, like, a pretty. A pretty big role that they'll end up playing in Congress. And I just feel, you know, the party's going to have to go in that direction.

I think Dem's preparing Gavin Newsom because, you know, as I see from the YouTube, like in Michelle Obama, how they started doing podcasts and kind of all this stuff, something happening. This is what I see. And I don't see any problem to switch the parties. Trump did that. I guess a lot of different candidates did that, too. My point was that. So the oldest history that I see, like, for America, I would really prefer to see someone from the private sector, like SEO or, I don't know, like, someone who can manage the things. Not a politician who've been, like, educated. Because sometimes they. They probably miss the things that people really need.

Okay, that's the last block we're going to get from voters. And I just want to throw a couple of things at you that. That we just heard. So he didn't mean SEO, he meant CEO. But I would say that when we asked the question, who do you want to see in the future? We had to, like, nudge. I don't know.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And the. The woman who's talking about Ilan Omar, Ayanna Pressley, Maxwell Frost, she's one of the people who sat out specifically over Palestine and Israel. Like, she didn't vote because of that. But the people that people say tend to be like, Jasmine Crockett is out there just talking. And so, like, people only are going to have opinions on people that they see getting out there and talking. It's the only people that they're going to bring up. But my favorite answer is the first one, the long one, where the guys like aoc, Bernie, also Josh Shapiro, also abundance.

[Jen Psaki]

He's like, Derek Thompson. You're like, okay, most voters have not.

[Unknown]

Read the new Ezra Klein book. Okay, we got one. But Most of them haven't.

[Jen Psaki]

Yes. So I'm reading it right now. What I kind of heard from that, and maybe I'm over reading because I know you gotta be careful with that. Is that book is also about ideas, right? Which you may not agree with. You don't have to agree with the ideas, but people want some big ideas out there. The other thing I heard from some of those names mentioned is people like a fighter, right? You know, I love to the like, I don't know if so and so is ready to be president, but I like them, right? And it's like, yeah, they don't have to be ready to be president. They can just be like a leader in the party or just a voice speaking out that people can feel is hearing them or they can relate to. But it's a reflection of this kind of feeling out who are the people on the bench who excites me because of how they make me feel? A lot of those people they mentioned are fighters. They're kind of aggressive. They're out there publicly, they are saying things, they're calling out musk, they're writing letters. They're doing all the things. Which is telling, I think.

[Unknown]

I think it's telling too. This is how I'm going to get us to the end kind of to wrap is by going to the beginning and saying. If there's one thing I feel like I learned from listening to voters, it is that the old linear spectrum of right and left and center, right and center, left and right. This guy who just laid out his, like theory on the Democratic Party, it was all over the place. It included progressive, it included abundance, it included Josh Shapiro and Asy and Bernie. Like, the point is, is who is out there talking to people and giving them a frame to lean on to sort through this stuff. Which is why the answer to me is like, get out there, guys. Get out. Get out there and say something. Like, that's what people look for. Yes, fighter, but also just like put stuff on the table. Like, now we're far away from an election. Now's the time to experiment. Now's the time to try totally throw stuff out there.

[Jen Psaki]

Throw out some big ideas. They don't have to have a branded name, by the way. Let me just say that, like, I don't like branded named things like the Opportunity Agenda, which had a lot of good stuff in it. But, like, what does that mean?

[Unknown]

It's meaningless.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, I know that's what I mean. Meaning, like, go out there and be like every person who's in the sandwich Generation should get $5,000 tax credit. If that's your idea, right? Go out there and say Elon Musk should be subpoenaed if the Democrats win back the House. I don't know, whatever the hell your views are, have something to say, right? The other thing I hear all the time is like, people are tired of Democrats just attacking. They like a fighter, but they want to know what they can do about it and what the solution solutions are. And so it's like, yeah, you don't have a ton of power legislatively when you're in the minority, but like, what do you propose doing differently? What can you do with public leverage, with even things that you can force people to have a vote on? I mean, you know, it's hard to do that legislatively, but like, that is what people are also looking for. We're past the election. Yes, you can attack Trump, but it's got to be more than that. It's got to be more than this is terrible for our democracy. It has to be like, what are you doing about it? What are your solutions?

[Unknown]

People want to see themselves in the thing that you're saying. That's why when Trump says America First, America first isn't just a slogan, it's a statement of priorities. And so people can see themselves in that. If America is first, that means I as an American and first. If democracy is first. I can't quite see myself in that because it's abstract. And so working people should be centered on that because working people, everyone's like, I'm a person and I work good. I would like policies that seek to address the needs of working people. Anyway, we're not trying to pinpoint all the messaging things. I just.

[Jen Psaki]

No, no, no. I would. I know we're going to wrap in a second here, but like, I'm betting you would agree with this. I feel like there has been a missed opportunity on Social Security over and over again over the last couple of weeks. You had what Trump said in the joint address. Were people talking about a little bit, but not in a way that massively broke through or was coordinated. I know they did Medicaid, but Social Security. Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary is saying, my mother in law wouldn't mind if her check was a. First of all, why is the mother in law of a billionaire like relying on Social Security? She probably isn't, but there are things like that that are gifts because they're so terrible. By the Trump and Elon Musk people that like, I feel like are Just not being taken advantage of and could universally be heard.

[Unknown]

I have a strong theory on this, which is that I think that people are fighting the last battle. And as people are sort of trying to seek lessons, like many of us are right, they've come to the idea that resist was bad, and so they don't want to just hashtag resist now. But that's leading them to sort of the paralysis of analysis, where everybody's sort of caught in trying to figure it out. It's like they're like, well, we overreacted last time, so we don't want to overreact this time. And I'm like, guys, this time is different. Like, the first time he was surrounded by people who were holding him back. It was still scary. And a bunch of stuff did break loose. Like, I feel right and vindicated about everything we said about Trump and everything we predicted about him. It is happening right now. And I'm sorry, Like, if you can't find. It's not just good messaging. It's the kind of thing that should get you exercised. Like, yes, organically. You don't need my PowerPoint to tell you this.

[Jen Psaki]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. All of that. Exactly.

[Unknown]

All right, Jen, I just have to.

[Jen Psaki]

Say one more thing, is that I don't think I've seen you since you did the podcast with Kellyanne Conway.

[Unknown]

Oh, my God. To be fair, it wasn't with Kellyanne Conway.

[Jen Psaki]

No, there was like, 11 people was.

[Unknown]

The New York Times deal book, and there was a million of us on that panel. Speaking of things that organically make you lose your mind, it was like Kevin McCarthy, Anita Dunn, and the Democrats. Because Van Jones had said something like, all the Democrats, I know, they're scared. They need therapy. And Kevin McCarthy was making fun of him. He's like, Republican voters, you know, when they lose an election, they don't need therapy. And I was like, right, because you all pretend like you didn't lose. And Kellyanne Conway was sitting so close to me, and she was just muttering at me the whole time. She was mad at me.

[Jen Psaki]

There was something going on in the vibe there that I was listening. Like, what's going on here? Anyway, as an aside.

[Unknown]

Yeah, as an aside. You want to know something really quick, though? That is fine for our listeners. I sat there the whole time being like, why does Kellyanne Conway even know who I am? Like, why is she this hostile to me? And then I was like, no, I do a podcast with her ex husband. And it, like, it sort of didn't occur to me that, like, oh, no, she probably does know who I am and probably does find it aggravating that.

[Jen Psaki]

I clearly, you're a little under her skin, Sarah. That was one of my takeaways. That's how I think sometimes about people on social media. I'm like, why do you care so much to tell me that I should die in a burning pile of manure? Like, okay, like, why? Why are you spending time on it? But who knows?

[Unknown]

Anyway, anyway, Jen, this was an incredibly good conversation. I'm really glad we got to have it. Thank you so much for being here.

[Jen Psaki]

Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. Thank you for having me on.

[Unknown]

So fun. Okay, and thanks to all of you for listening to another episode of the focus group podcast. We'll be back next week, and in the meantime, remember to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, subscribe to The Bulwark on YouTube and become Bulwark plus member@the bulwark.com. we'll see you next week.