← The Focus Group Podcast
Loading summary
Transcript128 lines
- [00:00]
Sarah Longwell
Hey, guys. I'm about to bring you my excellent conversation with new Bulwark employee Will Summer. But I wanted to flag that this whole show was taped on Tuesday, which means that the whole discussion around the economy and tariffs took place before Trump's new tariff regime came down this week. So keep that in mind as you listen. But obviously, as the economic effects of tariffs trickle down across the country, you can bet we're going to be talking about them soon. But for now, here's my conversation with Will Sommer. Enjoy. Hello, everyone, and welcome to the focus group podcast. I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark, and this week is a bit of a potpourri of the ongoing Trump chaos. First, we're going to get some quick reactions to the biggest story of Trump 2.0 so far, Signalgate, and whether or how much voters care about it. Next, because Donald Trump is threatening to run for a third term, we're going to check in on his base's attitude toward him running for this third term and the basis general attitudes toward Trump and the rest of the Magaverse. Thankfully, my guest is well versed in that world. That guest is Will Sommer, the new author of the Bulwark newsletter False Flag, and author of the book Trust the the rise of QAnon and the conspiracy that Unhinged America. Hey, man.
- [01:35]
Will Sommer
Hey. Thanks for having me coming on.
- [01:37]
Sarah Longwell
This show is like a hazing ritual for new Bulwark hires.
- [01:41]
Will Sommer
Yeah, no, I'm thrilled. I mean, I think there's a lot of great topics to discuss.
- [01:45]
Sarah Longwell
Well, we're glad you're here in general. Okay, so one defining feature of this last election was that a soft version of conspiratorial thinking went mainstream. Like we saw it all over the place. It wasn't just sort of confined to the fever swamps of QAnon. And so how has the right wing media ecosystem touched the rest of the culture over the last few years? Cause I feel like it used to be kind of isolated and then did it metastasized? I don't know what else.
- [02:14]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean it kind of became mainstream on the right when I started covering this stuff in 2016. Every so often something would happen, people say like, who's this weirdo? You know, explain this guy's deal. But now we see, I mean, the idea that like the majority of the Republican Party believes presidential election was stolen. I mean that's so that's open all to us at this point. But I mean the idea, I think pre2020, I just think these Conspiracy theories have become really common. Whether it's about vaccines or, you know, anything sort of of the moment can be. There's a conspiracy theory to explain it.
- [02:43]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I mean, this is something that over the period of time I've been doing focus groups, I have watched, I've actually developed a theory about it. You may have me do it. It's called the Republican Triangle of doom, which is the toxic and symbiotic relationship between the elected Republican officials, the right wing infotainment media and the voters. Because your point about the 70% of people who believe the election was stolen, you don't start that way, right. The election's not over and 70% of Republicans believe it was stolen. It happens by there being sort of a mutual reinforcing way in which the MAGA faithful demand that they say the election was stolen. They're like, I demand this from my elected leaders. So the elected leaders start to say, yeah, yeah, looks fishy. And you get people like Ted Cruz or Kevin McCarthy, people that are seen as more mainstream Republicans, saying, yeah, I think that this election was stolen. And then that bleeds over to another section of voters that says, well, if Kevin McCarthy says the election was stolen, maybe something must be happening. And also those elected officials need the right wing infotainment media because that gives them access to their voters, especially their most fervent ones. And so it becomes this sort of radicalizing reinforcing mechanism.
- [03:56]
Will Sommer
Yeah.
- [03:56]
Sarah Longwell
Does that sound right?
- [03:57]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it. I mean, you think about these issues that sort of start out in a non political or a bipartisan way and then become very polarized. Like I think of Ukraine, for example, like immediately after the invasion there were so many Republicans, even a lot of Republican voters, I mean the vast majority were supportive of US aid to Ukraine, stuff like that. And then you, you start to see a couple people in the right wing media who often took very pro Russia stances already kind of start picking away at it. And then over the years it picks up steam where it becomes sort of accepted on the right that it's like, oh no, we don't support Ukraine. That is sort of the reflex position. And so in these ways I think you can see, I mean, just a personal story. I was a young Republican long ago.
- [04:35]
Sarah Longwell
You and me both, brother.
- [04:37]
Will Sommer
And I would listen to like talk radio and stuff and I would see like the crazy stuff they were talking about. And for me at the time, it didn't that crazy. But I mean it was like Michael Savage would say like we gotta, like, nuke China and stuff like this. And this was, you know, fourth, fifth most popular talk radio host in the country. Then I look at Congress and they're talking about, like, tax cuts, deficit reduction. And I thought, there's this gap here between what the base wants and what talk radio is telling it, it wants and that they're really whipped up about. And then what Congress is putting in place, the Republicans. And so then I thought, you know, at some point, something's got to give. And what it was, was Trump someone who actually arrived and said to the base, yeah, you can have whatever you want.
- [05:14]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, I used to talk about this a lot, but I actually haven't thought about it in a little bit. The world that we inhabited as young Republicans. And I'm not gonna ask you how old you are. I actually don't wanna know how much younger than me you are. But there was always a recessive gene in the Republican Party that you kind of had to give a SOP to. Right. This is your Rush Limbaugh listeners, Pat Buchanan, and then like eventually, sort of Sarah Palin, sometimes we call them populists, whatever. But there was always this part of the Republican Party. And at some point it did become the dominant gene in the Republican Party. And there's a theory that. I'm not entirely sure whether I think this exactly right, but I certainly think there's elements of truth to it that both parties had kind of had their crazy people. Like when I was coming up as a young Republican, it was the Democrats who were kind of the anti vaxxers. It was like people living in remote places in Arizona who were like anti vaxxers that would say, there's weird things in all the food, so don't eat anything. And they were super anti establishment. And it feels like what's happened is all of those people have realigned so that the Republican Party now contains everybody who's interested in conspiracy theories. And the Democratic Party, they've got sort of the college lounge talk that's different than the conspiracy theories that people like to marinate in on the right now.
- [06:35]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, certainly, you know, people love to say, well, doesn't the left have a lot of crazy conspiracy theories too? The answer is not really, and certainly not at the level that it's been embraced by members of Congress or on msnbc, stuff like that. And so I think you're right that people with an anti establishment or a distrust of the system for the most part have migrated over to the right. And in many ways, that's sort of a challenge to Democrats because often these conspiracy theories arrive from a somewhat reasonable place of thinking, perhaps corporations don't have our best interests at heart. Then it becomes that's why they're creating these poisonous vaccines or they're poisoning the food supplies, stuff like that. And so there's often sort of a kernel of truth to it, and then it spins out into sort of RFK land.
- [07:15]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. And RFK is a good example. Right. Or Tulsi Gabbard. Like, these are all people who used to be Institutional Democrats or were Democrats of some kind that now politically feel more at home in the Republican Party because their extreme views are welcome there and they are no longer welcome in the Democratic Party. So you can see the shift happening sort of right in front of our eyes. Okay, so we're gonna get into sort of the hardcore MAGA folks that we talked to for the focus group that you watched. But first, I wanna check in on Signalgate. I wanna listen to how Biden to Trump voters talk about top officials, including the Vice President of the United States, using Signal, which is a commercial sort of messaging app, to plan a bombing on the Houthis. Let's listen.
- [08:02]
Focus Group Participant 1
The information wasn't destructive, that got leaked. Nobody got hurt. The mission went the way it was supposed to go. Whether or not the information was classified, I do want them to investigate as they should. But the left is, you know, jumping on it as if it's the end of the world. This was their opportunity they've been waiting for. So it's all over the news. But one thing that it did show was that they, especially the vice President, they're put in America first. There was nothing in those secret messages that was hypocritical compared to what they say in public. And like I said, it went off without a hitch. I don't know why that reporter specifically was added. I mean, they said he has the same initials as someone else that may have been added or whatever. But, like, he's like a. From the Atlantic. They hate Trump. Like, I don't know why he got at it. So there's some questions about why was his information even in the guy's phone to begin with. But it's. It's a big deal, enough that it should be investigated, but it's not as big as they're making it seem that it was definitely a screw up, massive screw up. And I heard John Ossoff talk about, since they. They noted all of the times of the bombings that the pilots could have got, could have got hurt. They could have backtracked about where the, the planes would be coming from and injured some of our guys over there. So in terms of that, that makes me, makes me uneasy and gives me pause. But the fact that nothing like that did happen, it went off without a hitch. I, I like it, yeah. But it was definitely a massive screw up. And I don't, I don't like it. It doesn't need to be a thing in the future.
- [09:47]
Sarah Longwell
I actually do use Signal to talk to my son and he does national security for the military. We don't talk about his job. It's just like, okay, I'm going to send you a package. And I think for just the regular military personnel that knows you're not supposed to put out any information out there, I think they should have known better. They should have known better. There should have been more of a understanding that you know, when you're speaking about any type of information, that it shouldn't just be out there in the atmosphere. I want to say that those texts were still, they weren't deleted right away. They were still there. So, I mean, that's a huge national security issue for me. I'm a mom. My, my son's in the military and I know that he can't tell us the things that he does and he knows he, that he can't say the things that he does. So it just makes sense that people need to. I'm sorry, but there needs to be consequences.
- [10:52]
Focus Group Participant 1
I thought when I first heard the news that it was not real because at that level of security and branch of the government, I think you should.
- [11:03]
Sarah Longwell
Have better sense than that than to make that small mistake. That's like if someone messes up an order for you at Jimmy John's but not to mess up something when it.
- [11:14]
Focus Group Participant 1
Comes to national security, I'm not from.
- [11:16]
Sarah Longwell
The military or really have any background.
- [11:20]
Focus Group Participant 1
In it, and I just really got into politics and reading about and hearing about stuff this year.
- [11:26]
Sarah Longwell
But still, I think someone should be held responsible.
- [11:29]
Focus Group Participant 1
If it's not the person that put.
- [11:31]
Sarah Longwell
Together the group chat, it should be.
- [11:33]
Focus Group Participant 1
The person that accidentally added his name.
- [11:36]
Sarah Longwell
Because that's a mistake that if they.
- [11:38]
Focus Group Participant 1
Made it once, they can make it again.
- [11:40]
Sarah Longwell
All right, so Will, there were three people in this group, surprisingly, who had heard nothing about the Signal chat fiasco, but the rest of them were kind of mixed there. You had some people who seem to have got the messaging right from what the right wants them to think about it. Then there were other ones who just on Their face thought it was a real problem and wanted accountability. But something like this happening to me is always an interesting study in how the right wing messaging machine kicks into gear and sort of tries to shape something like this for their voters. What did you see in the wake of the signal gate?
- [12:17]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I mean, it's these times that are so interesting where there isn't sort of a pat response to go to because it's something that's so strange. I mean, I think of like the Access Hollywood tape, things that are just, you never could have imagined. And so people, at least for a couple of days, kind of struggle to come up with the messaging. In this case, obviously the administration's message shifted for a couple days. We heard someone in the focus group there who said, well, the strike went off, no harm, no foul, no one was killed. And so in that way, whatever, let's move on. And there was also a bit of The Democrats are playing politics with this. I think this kind of recurs as an issue for voters who seem to support Trump is this idea of kind of both sides are the same or like, you know, Democrats might do the same thing, or it's kind of like a mud pit or something.
- [13:02]
Sarah Longwell
You know, Democrats are pouncing on this and politicizing it.
- [13:05]
Will Sommer
Exactly, exactly. On the other hand, I was interested to see that and it makes sense that these are Biden to Trump voters, that other ones are saying, you know, this is an issue, there should be an investigation, someone should be fired.
- [13:16]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I was sort of pleasantly, I don't know if surprised is the right word because it is such a blatant violation of our national security. And I think people's initial reactions were to be horrified by this because I often do focus groups after a big event and it's amazing to me how quickly sort of conventional wisdom can congeal on the right and a defense for whatever the thing is that Trump has done. And I think this time, because the administration itself didn't have one explanation, it had like seven. It was like Pete Hegseth was like, this was not classified information or this is a lying reporter. You know, people are like, eh, they already confirmed that this is real and true. And they were like, okay, different one, different one. Now it's like, well, the plan was perfect, but we don't know how we got on there. Like, there was three people who didn't know anything and there were other people who knew quite a bit. And when something gets to that level of detail, you can see that a Story like this is one where Democrats need to figure out how to continue to press on this because they do have people who voted for Trump who don't think it was great. But I guess my question is, having watched Democrats try to sort of puncture the outer edges of the Trump coalition that are still open to persuasion, they're not like Benghazi good at making something stick or but her emails making something stick. So do you think though that this could be one of those things that they make stick if they keep driving it?
- [14:48]
Will Sommer
You know, it's a good question. I mean, I think we see from those voters that there is some interest and sort of a feeling that like, the story still has yet to play out, that we haven't gotten like the consequence that I think at least some of those voters seem to feel is warranted. You know, it's interesting you bring up Benghazi, emailgate, many other things, because I remember I was thinking about this in light of the signal saga, even with those cases, even as someone who follows this up pretty closely, I would say, like, what is like the theory of the case here about Benghazi, like, what is it that Hillary Clinton supposedly did nefariously rather than perhaps incompetently or just unthinkingly? And you look into it and it's like, well, that's not true. Whatever the maximum version of culpability is is clearly not going to be true. And yet they managed to drag these things on for years and years. Now, certainly, I'm sure if Democrats control the House, there will be a signal investigation and that helps a lot. But even now I feel like the signal thing is fading a little bit. The classic Trump defense of no one resigns seems to have weathered the storm, at least for now.
- [15:44]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I mean, they do seem to understand. And I would say people who are in the communications business are often like, you want to kill a story like this, you want to put it to bed, you want it to go away, you don't want it to drag on. And I think they have a real instinct for knowing that if you fired somebody, it would raise this to another level of salience. Like those three people who haven't heard of this when Pete Hegseth gets fired, fired, maybe they do hear about it. Cuz it is much reported on, much opined about, you know, you hit the weekend and it's like people reset. And then you also get Trump who says, okay, so this is bad for us, we look like idiots. I know how to get out of this, though. I'm gonna tell reporters that I am running for a third term and I'm gonna get them chasing a different story altogether. Which brings us to the next thing, which is Trump tells Kristen welcome that there are ways he can run for a third term in 2028. And he's not joking when he says this. We must take him literally and seriously on this particular point. So we have been trial ballooning this Trump third term thing in the focus groups, specifically with Trump voters, for a while now. So I want to play some of the sound from a recent group of 2020 and 2024 Trump voters who are even more supportive, supportive of Trump than the rest of the gop. Like these are his base. We did like a very pro maga group of voters and we asked them about this. So this group splits between die hards who like want Trump to be king Trump forever and people who really like having Trump around, but they get sort of like squeamish and non committal about the third term thing. So let's listen.
- [17:23]
Focus Group Participant 1
Intro. Yeah, I'll sell more hats.
- [17:26]
Focus Group Participant 2
I think it's too soon to tell. I think there's a lot of things that are shifting, undoing a lot of the things that Biden did or his people did right before he left office. I'm speculating. I think this will all be for the good, you know, like the tariffs, for example. We, we gotta see over time if we bring some of that industry back into the US and we can add new jobs and all that's going to take time. So, you know, if things go the way that we're projecting, you know, I would say, yeah, like if he turns things around and we get back on track, lower prices, the economy's doing great, I would definitely consider that. But you know, if this is all for not like we do all this, these shifts and changes and add tariffs and anger other countries and cause wars or something like that, I'm just going to the extreme. But then I would be like, okay, we might need somebody else to reshift or recalibrate instead.
- [18:18]
Sarah Longwell
At first I was like, oh yeah, yeah. Initially I was all for it thinking, oh yeah, that would be a great idea. But then I guess I was more.
- [18:25]
Focus Group Participant 2
Now on the lines of, well, I.
- [18:26]
Sarah Longwell
Guess I need to see where this goes before I could make that decision.
- [18:30]
Focus Group Participant 3
It's too soon. We have to see if it goes the way he says it's going to go. We all want to believe that that's the case and everything's going to pan itself out and it's all going to make sense as time goes forward. But does it? Will it? Can it? We don't know. So I guess ask me in two years and then I can give a definitive answer on should he be. Or we need someone else to come in and make different changes.
- [18:57]
Focus Group Participant 2
I'm kind of on the fence. I kind of feel bad because he got the first term kind of interrupted with the pandemic and then not getting elected and then getting reelected. But honestly, I think it might have proven to be a good thing for him, because if he got elected the second time, I don't think he'd have the same fervor as he did now. So that second term, I feel, would have been a bit more muted by comparison for everything. But now he does have that fervor. So this is a good thing. And I want to see more of this fervor from any politician. But now that we actually have someone with this kind of fervor and this kind of momentum and just trying to do something, getting there, I want to see it continue. So that's kind of why I'm like, half. But at the same time, we do have these laws in place, and I want to see somebody else take it over, whether it's Vance or somebody else, you know, that will be like, yeah, keep this train rolling. Right. You know, because there's a reason why we have this in place. And, you know, George Washington, you know, our founding father, set this up. You know, as far as the. What's the word I'm looking for? Not the law, the precedent. Thank you for actually doing that. Right. And then it became law much later. So there's obviously a reason that we have that going for that precedent and for the laws now, but let's get somebody else good in there to do the same thing.
- [20:19]
Sarah Longwell
All right, well, you just wrote a newsletter about this. I, like, just read it before I came in here. And I want to ask you about this catch 22 that they put people like us in when Trump does one of these stunts, because on one hand, you know, they are trying to build an appetite. I mean, these voters, they're not saying, well, the Constitution is very clear on this. They're sort of saying, let's wait and see how he does. And if he's really, you know, no mention of his age whatever. So, like, they're open to it if he's doing a great job. But then there's other people sort of in the conservative media ecosystem that tut, tut at us if we take it seriously at all and say, how dare you think that our Constitution is so weak that Trump could do this, and you guys were all just getting baited. And I do think Trump picks his moments on some of these things. I do think it is part of trying to move to a different narrative. And yet I also think the idea that somebody who has flouted every law, that someone has tried to put in front of him and who has made it clear he's looking for whatever legal ways he could try to get around this or find a loop poll, I don't know. What should we be doing? How should we.
- [21:27]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I guess. I mean, it's complicated, right? As you said. I mean, on one hand, we have seen people like, Benny Johnson pulls out, like, a giant salt shaker for, like, the liberal tears, saying, Trump's trolling, whatever. But on the other hand, and this is why the focus group's so valuable, like, you listen to these voters. I mean, this is like, almost the equivalent of Trump saying, like, I want to be king. Right. And if people said, what do you think of Trump being king? And they said, I don't know, let's see how he does. And these are, frankly, voters, I'm assuming if they're hardcore Trump voters, unless Trump plunges the country into a huge depression or something, that aren't really looking that carefully at his performance, or they're gonna say, in all likelihood, he did a great job no matter what. So, I mean, the idea that they're even giving, like, lukewarm support for the most part, it's pretty alarming to me. And I think there's a big contrast between how this is being treated among Republican politicians and in the media and how these voters actually feel about.
- [22:18]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I mean, look, Trump could only do the sort of stolen election thing with the support of a huge swath of Republican voters. Like, they willed it into being. Right. It has taken its faith. And so the fact that there is, like, a medium ish appetite from voters, Trump knows that, and it is flagrantly unconstitutional. Like, it is there in black and white. You know what else there's there in black and white, though? The idea of birthright citizenship.
- [22:47]
Will Sommer
Yeah.
- [22:48]
Sarah Longwell
They're still trying to change that. So, like, the idea that we are suckers for looking at it and being like, I don't know, we should probably have a plan to make sure that he can't actually do this feels not as irrational as some people would like to make us feel.
- [23:02]
Focus Group Participant 1
Yeah.
- [23:02]
Will Sommer
I mean, you think about six years ago or whatever, when he started floating the idea of taking over Greenland. Right? Classic shiny Object distraction thing and now look where we are. We're making like weird saber rattling trips to Greenland, stuff like that, shaking up NATO. So the idea that, yeah, it may seem crazy, but Trump's also done a lot of other outlandish stuff that had never been done before.
- [23:22]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, we should no longer be caught flat footed in a failure to imagine to accuse those of us taking him remotely seriously of being unserious. I would like to remind people like that. Erik Erickson. It's just amazing to me when these guys screw up and you hear people saying like, oh well, the Dems are all over them for it, or Trump's floating the unconstitutional third term and it's like, stupid Dems don't understand the Constitution. I'm like, is that it? Or does Trump not understand the Constitution? I think we know the answer to that. All right, focus group listeners, have I got a podcast wreck for you. In wild times like these, do you ever want to break the rules? I know it can be important to rethink some of the dumb rules that we follow for no good reason. Well, that's exactly what friend of the bulwark Glenn Galich gets into on his show Break Fake Rules. Here Glenn and guest dig into the self imposed rules that hold us back, particularly in philanthropy, to uncover which rules we should commit to breaking together for a better society. Just be sure to break fake rules in a cool way. Not in an Elon way or because it needs to be said, not in a spray painting other people's Tesla's way. Or maybe I'm going to plan airstrikes in Yemen over signal kind of way. You'll even hear from me and other insiders in politics, government, philanthropy, media and more who are refusing to live by fake rules. If you've ever wondered why we live by certain rules or dreamed of what became becomes possible when we do things just a bit differently. Tune into Break Fake Rules new episodes drop monthly wherever you get your podcasts. So in every focus group we do, we always do it the exact same way. We ask people, how do you think things are going in the country? And you just kind of took a shot at this because when we asked this hardcore MAGA group, you know, how do you think things are going in the country? I actually did find the answers a little bit interesting because they didn't quite say, everything's awesome, I'm loving it, let's go. They were a little different than that. Let's listen.
- [25:35]
Focus Group Participant 1
I'm an entrepreneur. I guess you consider I'm transitioning because I'm unemployed. I was selling Trump merchandise for the last eight years. But now that the election's over, I have to get a real job.
- [25:48]
Sarah Longwell
Okay.
- [25:49]
Will Sommer
How's the transition going?
- [25:51]
Focus Group Participant 1
Pretty damn good. I'm not talking about transitioning sexually. I'm talking about work wise. Okay. I think they're improving. Prices are coming down just a fraction at the grocery store, but not like they need to be. And with all the bullshit I call it that the Democrats are trying to create and stir up, if, you know, somebody voted Democrat, you see them in public, you just want to grab them and beat the shit out of them.
- [26:17]
Focus Group Participant 2
I would say that things are, they're progressing better. Definitely not where I would like them to be. But again, we're in the first hundred days of a new administration, so things are still kind of coming to fruition. Parks are getting into motion. I like kind of where the economy is heading. I don't think we're going to be where we think we're going to be just yet. I think it's probably going to take, I'd say a year and a half, two years. As for just like domestic and foreign policy, I think that's also on a good uptick right now just with, you know, I think the improving situation in Ukraine and Russia, the improving situation over in the Gaza Strip as well as, you know, domestically. Right. Just law and order, de weaponization of the Department of Justice, you know, illegal border crossings being down and getting illegal alien criminals out of here and reducing the inflow of fentanyl, you know, into this country.
- [27:08]
Will Sommer
It's quite uncertain.
- [27:10]
Sarah Longwell
I think it's trending in the right direction, but I think Trump's throwing a.
- [27:13]
Will Sommer
Lot of rocks in the pond and.
- [27:15]
Sarah Longwell
There'S a lot of waves going up and down.
- [27:17]
Focus Group Participant 2
So it'll take some time to settle.
- [27:19]
Sarah Longwell
Out and see the effects of his changes. But I think in general, I like.
- [27:24]
Focus Group Participant 1
The rocks he's throwing and we'll kind.
- [27:26]
Sarah Longwell
Of see how things should settle out over the next three, four months.
- [27:30]
Focus Group Participant 3
I believe it's not going to be as immediate as, you know, the whole first 90 day thing that he was promising in the beginning. But like they all said, you know, he's, he's putting a lot of things in motion, a lot of changes, and, you know, they're shocking and people are shocked by them. And so it's going to take some time to see the benefits of that. I think it's going to take like, what they've all said, you know, a good year to year and a half to really see things come to fruition and all of it play out.
- [28:00]
Sarah Longwell
I feel like Biden screwed up the.
- [28:02]
Focus Group Participant 2
World so much in the last term that now it's going to take a.
- [28:07]
Sarah Longwell
Lot to correct it. So, and again, it's going to be a slow process and we're going to have to all be patient. But so far I think it's been positive. I mean, I really like how he, he's getting rid of the dangerous illegal immigrants, but in terms of prices, I wish that they would come down because that's, to me, that matters more on a daily basis.
- [28:25]
Focus Group Participant 3
And at least here I haven't seen any really difference, like in stores.
- [28:29]
Sarah Longwell
I wish things would happen a little bit quicker, see a little bit more price decrease. But the accomplishments that I've seen since he's been up there are incredible. And I understand it takes a lot of time to undo the damage that was done because it was quite extensive. So I'm thrilled with everything I'm seeing so far. And, you know, they didn't build Rome in a day, so to speak. So I actually thought this was really interesting. And it's consistent with a lot of the other groups that we've done with Trump voters where they are happy with the action, they trust Trump and they will sort of make excuses, but they are sort of like, but I would like prices to go down, I would like the economy to improve, I would like inflation to be better. And I talked to a lot of Trump voters and listened to how they talk about the first term and they were like, everything was amazing. It was the greatest time. You know, before COVID everything was incredible. And they are hedging a little bit. They're like, Rome wasn't built in the day. There was a lot of people in the group, they were like, it might take a couple years, which I think they're hearing Trump say could be a rocky transition. But I do hear a lot of this concern about the economy. It shows up in the polling. What do you think? I mean, do you think if prices don't start going down sometime in the next year or so, that people like this could start not desiring Trump for a third term?
- [29:55]
Will Sommer
You know, it's a good question. I think maybe a Biden to Trump voter, perhaps that's possible. I guess maybe my skepticism is from covering right wing media so much and seeing what messaging I think will emerge. You know, we're already seeing, as you said, like short term pain. You know, it's like remodeling your house or whatever. And now in 2027, are we gonna be hearing, well, you know, just a little bit more pain or we didn't know how bad the Biden economy was. And I mean the reality is the prices aren't going down. Like, I mean the inflation might slow, but the prices aren't going to go down. And I think that messaging has been promoted so much. The idea that like it'll actually become cheaper again, you know, we'll have to see. But it is interesting that at least at this point there was like a little dissatisfaction, as you said, hedging. But I just imagine that in a few years there will be in the same way that after the financial crisis it became, well, the issue was too many minorities and poor people were allowed to buy houses that I think there's gonna be some messaging that picks up. Even if, let's say tariffs just shoot inflation up, I think there'll be some way that at least hardcore Trump supporters.
- [30:55]
Sarah Longwell
Can excuse it, can rationalize it. Yeah, I mean there is a little bit of. This is a crass phrase, but Trump has the ability to sort of pee on a lot of these people and tell them it's raining and they will often, yeah. Defend him in the face of that. It is one thing when the economy is good though, to lie to them. I wonder how many people stick with him if inflation does shoot up. And you're right, we've been talking to a lot of Biden to Trump voters and so it's people who have, they're like more red pilled than they are. So people who've lived in the right wing fever swamps for a long time. A lot of them are kind of like Joe Rogan ish people. They went from Bernie to Trump. But like they talk about, I don't know, I was gonna buy a car but now I'm really worried. I don't think I'll be able to to because the tariffs. There was some tariff skepticism in this group. How does the right wing media ecosystem deal with the truth of people are experiencing negative personal consequences at the grocery store prices? Obviously they blame it on Biden for now. And you can hear people in there, Biden screwed it up so bad. Gonna take a while to fix it. But if it doesn't get fixed, as you just said, it won't. How long does he get to pee on them and tell them it's raining?
- [32:06]
Will Sommer
It's funny you say that, I also hate that phrase, but it's one that just comes up so much. It's so relevant to our times. Right. So ultimately you can't keep blaming it On Biden in theory, maybe. I mean, this is what so many of the focus group questions are. How durable is that support for Trump? Right. And I do think that in part taking back to signal gate, that was so effective because people imagine I have signal on my phone, they might say, I know how this works. But obviously the economy is so much more important and people, people deal with that much more in their day to day lives. At the same time, I mean, we'll have to see how much people buy the tariffs are building a new economy message. I think the messaging has been pretty muddled on that so far. It seems like even people in the White House don't know exactly what this fabulous new economy is supposed to look like. So, I mean, that might be an.
- [32:50]
Sarah Longwell
Opening, but JD Vance could sit down here and explain, annoyingly but with some relative precision, about how the hollowing out of the Midwest and the manufacturing sector, how tariffs are going to force us to build more things here with tariffs for Trump, it's more just like I would like a lever by which I can punish our friends and help our enemies or whatever, whenever I want to. Right. And he likes, he doesn't mind keeping people guessing. I mean, this thing that Trump can just do as a king. And so I'm not sure he's got some grand plan about restructuring the economy. Maybe he does, but it seems to me it's more of like a weapon for him to wield unilaterally.
- [33:31]
Will Sommer
Well, certainly I think it's going to be a harder thing to spin. Let's say the tariffs don't go great. Liberation Day does not really work out. In that case, I think that'll be a harder thing to spin than say something about signal or kind of broader democracy or norms breaking.
- [33:46]
Sarah Longwell
People ask me this question all the time, but I'm going to ask it of you, which is like, okay, there's tariffs, there's high inflation, prices are not just going down, things are getting worse. What does it take? What does it take for Trump to lose some of these people?
- [34:03]
Will Sommer
I mean, that's the big mystery, right? I mean, that's what we've been talking about for almost 10 years now, right? And it is interesting that even these people who are sort of categorized as like pretty hardcore MAGA people, they're a little cautious about it. On the other hand, one wonders, you know, how much of that is just kind of opposed and how much are they trying to say wait and see and then in a few years they'll love it. But I think probably the economy, if Anything I think would cost Trump support, it'd be the economy.
- [34:27]
Sarah Longwell
I've been trying to advance this theory around getting Trump to 32% to really blunt his political efficacy and see if you can run off at least some Republicans because he hits some new low of popularity. But that 32% is basically a number. That is my estimation of the percent of people in this country who will never ever walk away from Donald Trump, no matter how bad things get. We're in a full on recession slash depression, we're in hyperinflation, we're in stagflation. I don't know where our economy lands. There's one of the guys in this group you heard him talking about. He's not sexually transitioning, he's doing a career transition because he had quit his job so he could go sell Trump merchandise. Which is, that's one of the reasons he's big on a Trump third term. Cuz he can go back to selling Trump merchandise. And I put that guy in that kind of 32% like he doesn't like any other Republicans really, except for Trump. But I know that there are a lot of voters who went for Trump in the face of not liking Democrats, but could absolutely start saying he's doing a lousy job if the economy doesn't turn around.
- [35:32]
Will Sommer
That's exactly who I was gonna cite as the guy that he's not gonna lose is the guy who devoted his life to selling Trump merch. But yeah, even in this hardcore MAGA group, you hear people saying, you know, geez, I want the prices to be lower. And we know again, I mean, the prices will not go lower. And so then at one point does that messaging start to conflict?
- [35:47]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, we'll see. Okay, I want to close on the state of MAGA media, which is like your world.
- [35:54]
Will Sommer
Yes.
- [35:54]
Sarah Longwell
And so I really want you to go on this. The names you're about to hear are just a smattering of the ones we've heard when we talk to groups. But it's not like a statistical sample. It's not like from this group we know who everybody is listening to. But I want to have a discussion about what the MAGA audience is craving these days in terms of media. Let's listen.
- [36:17]
Focus Group Participant 1
I sure miss Rush Limbaugh, God rest his soul. He did show prep for everybody. But 99.9% of the time he's right.
- [36:27]
Will Sommer
Anybody would be interested in seeing Tucker Carlson run.
- [36:31]
Focus Group Participant 1
He's a little bit narcissistic. He's kind of like mini Trump. He loves himself too. Damn much.
- [36:37]
Focus Group Participant 2
I think he's swayed too much. I remember when he used to have the bow tie and then someone made a comment and so he switched from the bow tie to the tie. It's just like, stick with the bow tie. That's your personality, that's your stick. And so, you know, if he can be swayed that easily about something that he loved for years, he can be swayed about anything.
- [36:54]
Focus Group Participant 1
He's kind of like Sean Hannity. He won't let whoever he has as a guest talk. He just overshadows him because he wants to be in the damn spotlight. I mean, shit, man, shut up. Let the guy talk.
- [37:06]
Will Sommer
What do you like about Rogan?
- [37:08]
Focus Group Participant 3
I like him. I think he just, I think he tells it how it is. I don't get the feeling there's a lot of BS coming from him. I think he sees it and he talks about it and I don't think it's, in my opinion, not non factual. And I think he just calls the shots and he sees things clearly. I enjoy listening to him.
- [37:28]
Sarah Longwell
Same thing. He's just very plain spoken. He says it like it is to me. That's why I see him and Bongino as a little bit on the similar page. Personally, they seem to just throw the facts out there. It is some opinion, but they throw a lot of facts out there. I feel like you can get some truth there.
- [37:45]
Will Sommer
Okay, we.
- [37:47]
Sarah Longwell
Thoughts on Tim Pool?
- [37:48]
Focus Group Participant 2
Yeah, so I, I like him a little bit. He seems more centrist, which I'm good because gets a good perspective on things. He's a younger guy. He was a skater. So he has some interesting youthful takes on things when it comes to all of that. And it's not necessarily like he's all about Republicans or all about Democrats. He seems to kind of stick to his guns with where he thinks. And it's, you know, it's like, no, there's too much government corruption. Let's get rid of this stuff. There's too much spending, too much bs. And so I do like that aspect about him.
- [38:26]
Sarah Longwell
Now, if you're not familiar with Tim Pool, centrist is not a word one would use to describe this particular podcaster. All right, I have a bunch of questions and I want to have a robust conversation about the right wing media ecosystem, which is maybe you could just walk us through how it emerged to be the powerful force that it is.
- [38:48]
Will Sommer
Sure. The right wing media, it's sort of as we know it today, dates back decades to obviously Rush Limbaugh had a big moment in the 90s with talk radio kind of professionalizing it, nationalizing it. We think about Fox News when Roger Ailes after Watergate thought we need a right wing media apparatus that will protect future Republican presidents from scandals. And we see how that works now. So it kind of grows up outside of the mainstream media, especially after these people feel that they've been cut out of the mainstream media. They, you know that they're not going to be CNN hosts. And so they look for these alternative pathways. And I think with the Internet, it's really gone from, you know, something Republicans tuned into, in the case of talk radio, into this thing that particularly on things like YouTube or TikTok, whatever and podcasts has become much more kind of like a mainstream thing for younger people who are getting most of their news from the Internet. You know, I listen to shows about, you know, exercise, or you talk about Joe Rogan, which is often a show about exercise and sports comedy that is also sort of in a default way. A lot of these shows are also right wing. And so there's a lot of like co mingling or it's like guys who have prank YouTube shows, but they'll also have Tucker Carlson on and talk about how much they love Zinn, like the canned nicotine. And so I think a lot of that stuff has really grown up in a digital way into much bigger operations.
- [40:05]
Sarah Longwell
All right, I'm going to advance one of my own because I was sort of around in more like traditional conservative circles as this alternative media. I mean, Fox News was around when I was like in high school and stuff. And I remember when our colleague Bill Kristol was on the Beltway Boys and Fox News was sort of a different animal than it is right now. But I think two things. One, the right wing media in part happened because you said this. They felt like they couldn't get jobs at cnn. I think you would hear a lot of people on the right say they were kind of closed out of a lot of these spaces, universities, media. And so they went out and built their own things. And I do feel like the left or the Democrats now are looking around being like, we need to do that. I do think though that one thing that might be missing in their strategy is the notion that this was like 35 years in the making. They did not build this in a day. And in fact, what happened was there was already a robust right wing media ecosystem with Rush Limbaugh with Fox News that talk radio and Fox News had to start to chase as the Internet gave rise to all of these talker, they fired him from Fox News cuz he was causing them real liability problems. And I think there's probably some internal stuff too. But now Tucker remains like a major media force. Like Bill O'Reilly got run out at a time when there wasn't such access to all of these platforms. And like he still is around but he's not like a big player. But Tucker still has a meaningful platform. And so talk a little bit about maybe just the last ten years or so.
- [41:43]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, I think we're seeing because the bar to start a YouTube show with sort of some nice production values is so low that a lot of these people are leaving these media outlets. And as a result there's a lot less gatekeeping of what is sort of treated as an acceptable topic in right wing media. My mind goes to Ben Shapiro's operation, the Daily Wire, where Candace Owens was maybe the star next to Shapiro. Then she starts getting into anti Semitism, attacking Israel, which is sort of a red line for Ben Shapiro. So she basically gets fired, kind of pushed out the door. She says, well whatever, I'll start a YouTube show and compete with you and I'll have all these ideas, attacks on vaccines, stuff like that. And you know, she's able to thrive. I mean, she, I think, has surpassed the Daily Wire in some ways.
- [42:23]
Sarah Longwell
First of all, that is one name that did not come up organically.
- [42:27]
Will Sommer
Yes, it wasn't that interesting.
- [42:28]
Sarah Longwell
It was that Ben Shapiro was not mentioned, which does not mean he doesn't have fans out there. But you've been discussing the state of the Daily Wire. I want to come back and talk about the media ecosystem a little bit more, but just specifically about the Daily Wire because you've been really on this. Walk us through like their recent shakeup. What's going on?
- [42:45]
Will Sommer
Yeah, this is kind of a pet project of mine. So Ben Shapiro started this company called the Daily Wire roughly a decade ago. It started out as sort of like a couple YouTube shows, podcasts. And then they had these ambitions to be like conservative Netflix, the New York Times, but for conservatives. I mean this was going to be this huge operation. Last year they claimed to have $200 million in revenue. So big deal. And then suddenly just over the past couple months, I mean, there were some rumors, but nothing I could report. And then suddenly their CEO, Jeremy Boreing, who was like a big deal, very forward facing guy, he was gonna be the new Rupert Murdoch. Suddenly he steps down. Mysteriously, they just laid off some people, their president steps down. So there's something going on there. And beyond the sort of the drama, which I'm obviously interested in, the larger take is, what does this mean for right wing media's attempts to sort of go relatively mainstream to build conservative Netflix? Is that a pipe dream at the moment, or could this really happen? What do these business problems suggest more broadly? Are there business problems? Who knows? I think it's interesting in that way. And also, as I mentioned, in the way that they're bleeding talent. And what does the fact that someone. They just lost someone else, Brad Cooper, that they can leave and just start their own YouTube show with really no problems. What does that mean?
- [43:55]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I didn't know who she was.
- [43:57]
Will Sommer
She looks like Ben Shapiro's sister, and she's kind of like little Ben Shapiro.
- [44:01]
Sarah Longwell
But the market incentives now, you know, you have to sort of want to do a project like the Bulwark or the Free Press or the Daily Wire or something that requires a group of people, because the incentives sort of are pushing now toward being an individual who has the most incendiary kind of positions that, like, if you're in a group of people and everybody's decided, okay, we're gonna try to be responsible in our lane of whatever. And Ben Shapiro has red lines for himself. One of them being rampant anti Semitism. Not. Okay, maybe he didn't care that she was advancing the conspiracy theory that Macron, the French president's wife, is a man. But she talks about things like that all the time. Tucker Carlson recently, somehow, weirdly, she's such a nice person. And she's right about Macron's wife being a man. Okay, we just live in this world now. But the pressure of the incentives for people to go off on their own and be a crazy person, but a crazy person with a lot of fans, that is really lucrative today.
- [45:00]
Will Sommer
And I think there's also, like, an authenticity to it. I mean, Ben Shapiro is a guy who wears a suit, you know, looks very like, I'm the anchor. But you can see that a lot of these people who split off and are having success are going for more of a Rogan lifestyle look. I mean, I mean, Tucker Carlson once was wearing a suit, a bow tie, which was fascinating that they were dinging him for abandoning the bow tie. And now he's wearing the Patagonia vest. He's in the cabin on his set, and in the similar way.
- [45:24]
Sarah Longwell
So he's just killing bears with his bare hands. That really seems like who he is as a human.
- [45:28]
Will Sommer
Yeah, exactly. And people are getting more into on the women's side. There's also a mix of Celebrity gossip or they're getting into food. The word apothecary is thrown around a lot. We're kind of like this back to nature lifestyle thing again, weird ways in.
- [45:42]
Sarah Longwell
Which things that used to be sort of more lefty goop, but the trad wife thing, all of that is becoming part of sort of influencer culture. And this is a thesis that I have that I've been saying in spaces and I get a little pushback of it. But people used to say politics is downstream from culture. And I feel like we have hit a moment where there's no difference between politics and culture. Like they are infused, which is why we have a game show host, reality star as the President of the United States.
- [46:13]
Will Sommer
Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, obviously, as you said, I mean, for so long, for right wing media, the maxim, Andrew Breitbart's politics is downstream of culture. I mean, that's why Ben Shapiro launched these conservative Bluey for kids. You know, we're going to have conservative Game of Thrones. But you know, meanwhile, like, yeah, you listen to these shows and they just sort of reflexively, they'll be talking about a UFC match and then say, can you believe this thing? But Biden's so senile, stuff like that. And so the way it all blends in together, politics is another sort of lifestyle choice or another entertainment option is.
- [46:43]
Sarah Longwell
Ben Shapiro and Fox News people who used to be extraordinarily powerful in right wing media circles. But Ben Shapiro was like us. It was a never Trumper for a period of time. Of course, like many of these guys got on board for Trump 2.0 after he denied the election results and attacked the Capitol. But they got their rationalizations in order and they got there in part because they're having to chase the much more fringy elements. So how can they maintain their place in this order long term? Or will they continue to bleed influence to people who are even crazier all the time? Or will they just have to, like Megyn Kelly has, for example, just be like, oh, I'm gonna go crazy too?
- [47:26]
Will Sommer
I think probably the latter. I mean, well, on one hand, I think Ben Shapiro could stick with what he's doing and not start criticizing Israel. He's definitely not gonna do that. But I think that's where the energy is on the right, certainly among young people. I think it's more anti Semitism, more what you might call edgy content, more talk about racism, stuff like that.
- [47:43]
Sarah Longwell
Meaning saying racism is a. Okay, yeah.
- [47:46]
Will Sommer
Or saying, well, look at these statistics. Statistics this kind of stuff. And so I think that is, I think, probably a place where Ben Shapiro doesn't want to go. And so he's. I mean, these YouTubers look at his view counts, and they say it's down. I think a lot of that energy is going towards these more extreme figures. And I mean, we know, like, attention is equal to money these days. And so he's not able to wade into these controversies in a way, you know, sort of random, successful YouTubers are.
- [48:13]
Sarah Longwell
All right, so now I want to come back to this other question that I hear people wrestling with all the time, which is that the left is trying to build their own ecosystem that can somehow rival the right. And so as MSNBC or cnn, like, they're also in a major viewership challenge because people are just moving more online. I mean, it's one of the reasons I think the Bulwark has been so successful as an independent media place. We moved into the YouTube space. You know, we're launching podcasts. We're sort of meeting people where they are. We're trying to be authentic and trusted voices that are engaging with people in real ways. That I think has changed. Cable sort of can't make that pivot. Like, they still sit. I mean, yeah, we're kind of behind a desk here. I guess, today we're in the studio, but, you know, it's not like a fancy studio. That plant's fake. So the way in which everything is changing, like, can Democrats rival what the right is doing? And to do that, do they also have to have their own sort of flamethrower bombastic? Do we just end up in a place where everybody is saying a bunch of nonsense, there's no media gatekeepers anymore, there's no fidelity to the truth, and everybody's just trying to convince people that the other side is trying to murder them?
- [49:27]
Will Sommer
Unfortunately, I think that's where it's heading, at least for the majority of outlets. You mentioned cable, trying to get kind of some of that podcast YouTube heat. I think about Will Kane, who's a Fox News host, and he launches his show with a kind of a podcasty mic like this, but he's also mic'd up. So the mic is totally fake. They're just trying to, like, give it kind of like that vibe. Yeah, I think that's where it's headed. I mean, at the same time, I think for Democrats, if they want to nurture that kind of ecosystem, it's going to come with some compromises, and it's going to be less buttoned up. I've talked to a few YouTubers who are kind of like culture, kind of like in the. They're also normie Democrats, but they want Democrats on their shows. But Democrats, I think are understandably wary cuz this isn't the kind of show they normally go on. Maybe some of these guys have been canceled in the past. You know, these are not sort of the places they go. But at the same time, Republicans had to get over and Trump helped with a lot of that. Yeah, I'm gonna go on the Joe Rogan show. I'm gonna go on Alex Jones.
- [50:17]
Sarah Longwell
They got comfortable with Alex Jones. I mean, man, and he comes up in the focus groups. And Candace, she comes up in the focus groups. She comes up often too, where you're like, oh, well, who would you like to see run for president? On the Republican side? Which maybe is another part of this that we could just talk about briefly. A lot of people in this group, every group, they always say the same phrase about why they like Trump. He's not a regular politician. And it seems to me that increasingly the pool of talent that will be considered for elected office are going to come more and more from this media ecosystem. Certainly on the right, potentially on the left, as they start to have more of an influence culture of their own. Does that sound right?
- [50:59]
Will Sommer
I think that's absolutely right. You know, on one hand I thought it was interesting how much the group was not interested in Tucker Carlson. I don't know if he's still like, there's sort of a natural distaste for the media broadly that transfers to him and they see him as still a media guy. But I think the idea of someone who sort of like mixes it up. I wonder if you ask them, you know, Dana White, like the head of ufc, what would you think of him running for president? Maybe it would be more positive. I think there's such a craving right now for like successful communicators and people especially who are not in a real media mold. And I think you certainly see Democrats more open to that idea as well as maybe Mark Cuban should run something like that.
- [51:32]
Sarah Longwell
I got a lot of Cuban curious Dems in the focus groups these days, which is a little bit of a function of Democrats saying that they don't think a black person or a woman or Pete Buttigieg can win. And so now they're like, who is the straightest, whitest, not a politician, comfortable with the media person. And on the Dem side, I think there's not a lot of places to look for that. I Think Democrats, this is just my two cents. They should tread carefully on this idea because some of their most dynamic communicators are women, black people and people to judge. But it's just true that the right is cultivating a massive bench of talent. Talent. I'll use that advisedly. So, for example, I would say Megyn Kelly, easily somebody who could run for political office and win. If you said, who's the most likely person to be the first female president? It isn't Nikki Haley. I think it would be somebody like Megyn Kelly. And she's an interesting one to me, actually, because it's a real classic case of sort of the abused becoming the abuser. Trump humiliated her at that debate, said she had blood coming from her eyes, coming from her wherever. Went after her for asking him a tough question. As a moderator, he pushes Fox around a lot when they don't do what he likes. But then she sort of turns around now and she has made sort of trans issues and going after people like Sarah McBride, but also just in general, she is nasty online. She's cruel, she's mean. And that's like her vibe. Like, I don't care if Trump is a sexual assaulter. You know, I care about, you know, are we getting illegal immigrants out of the country or something? But I can name and go through so many right wing podcasters and influencers, including just kind of a casual manosphere that code right wing or sort of red pilled. They're nothing like Republicans. But they code right, right wing, which is why I think people might need to dispense with this line and the spectrum. And it's like right and left and center, right and center left. It's much different than that. Now, like, Joe Rogan is right wing, but bears no resemblance to a Republican party or ethos.
- [53:45]
Will Sommer
And certainly I think what people like about him often is that he is not just now he's complaining about the deportations to El Salvador, Salvador. And so he's not tied into a broader right wing media infrastructure or sort of like, or a political system either. But it's interesting, the bleed in the other direction where I have some baby boomers, members of my family are very hardcore Republicans. And now they love Theo Vaughn. I mean, these things you would never think about. And so in that way, I think this is all kind of congealing into this broader.
- [54:11]
Sarah Longwell
They're baby boomers who love Theo Von and Joe Rogan.
- [54:13]
Will Sommer
Yeah.
- [54:14]
Sarah Longwell
So every time I try to kind of tap into one of these shows, because here's the thing about The Obama. All right, I'm gonna make an admission. I still watch the Real World Road Rules Challenge, and I have watched every episode that has ever been made of Road Rules, of Real World, of that entire franchise. I remember Theo Vaughn when he was like an early 20something who shaved his chest. These shows are unwatchable as far as I'm concerned. Like, Joe Rogan sits there and he's like, who do you think would win between a gorilla and a shark? And talks about it for like two hours. And I'm like, what? How can somebody sit through this? But these shows are wildly popular and they have melted the brains cable news and the right wing media ecosystem did to the boomers what they said video games were gonna do to us. But we're fine. They've all gone crazy anyway. Sorry.
- [55:06]
Will Sommer
Well, no, it's funny you say that, and I think this is sort of such a hard dynamic for Democrats to replicate because, like, I recently listened to a lot of Rogan and Theo Vaughn for my newsletter and I was just like, what is happening to me? I listened to three episodes of this and I'm just like, geez Louise, you know, hurry it up, man. You know? And yet, obviously they have, you know, extremely passionate audiences. And so, I mean, it has to be something natural that's like, where do we get liberal Joe Rogan? But it has to be someone, I think, with an established audience who can do this in an organic way. And it's not really obvious to me who that is.
- [55:35]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, so one of the things, like people say, well, we need sort of a Democratic set of influencers and media ecosystem that is the same. And there's a lot of people, I think, philanthropically, who are trying to figure out how could they invest in that, how could they help build that? And I'm like, okay, well, you guys are going to need the demand side first. And I wonder if the demand side among Democrats is there in the same way the demand side has been created among Republicans. And I don't know, and maybe this is a tough question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Is there something now different in the DNA between, let's just say the right and the left understanding what I said about the scrambled lines that make the right more attracted to this type of content in a way that, I don't know, this is maybe a little bit overly mean, but maybe Democrats are still reading books and Republicans are like, well, I'm gonna spend three hours hanging out with Joe Rogan. And also, sometimes I think about, especially men, the loneliness factor. That leads them to be like, well, Joe Rogan's like, who I hang out with for three hours. They can do it because it mimics sitting around and BSing with your friends. And instead of doing that in real life, they're doing it with Joe Rogan.
- [56:52]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, thank you for narrowing it down because often what we're talking about with these podcasts as men specifically. And so I think the challenge is a lot of these sort of traditionally male activities are sort of coding right wing at the moment. And so things like video games, I think about like Twitch streamers, sports. So as a result, I think it's kind of bringing people into this already sort of right wing coded world. You know, I remember like roughly a year ago, I was watching just some like, video game YouTuber who then casually was like, all right, like, let's look how stupid Biden is. And I thought, oh, yikes, you know, that this is becoming kind of part of that fair and that presumably, roughly a political people are consuming.
- [57:27]
Sarah Longwell
And you heard that in the groups, people talk about this all the time. And someone said it specifically, word for word. They said they feel like Trump, he kind of transcends politics. Right. That idea of like, well, Republicans stand for this and Democrats stand for this is like bleeding away. And it's a little more, you know, I don't like either side, but I like this person. And they. I think that that's right. I think Trump both resulted from and then really accelerated, like a breakdown of there being a linear political spectrum and like something really clear and understandable and defined about the parties. That's why it is more of a cult of personality. But also it's a vibe, it's a culture which I think makes the left now, which does still have sort of a coherent set of policies that it's trying to advance, but doesn't know how to talk about normal policy stuff in the face of an entire sort of cultural upheaval. I don't know. How do you think this plays out?
- [58:25]
Will Sommer
Well, it's interesting, as you said. I mean, this comes up again and again in the focus groups as people just kind of like hating the concept of politics or politics pre Trump. And it's not even necessarily that they're such hardcore Trump people, but it is this idea that Trump's going to cut through the politics. There's. There's this kind of amorphous politics that is causing all the problems. And if we only had someone who sort of ruled by fiat perhaps is maybe the end game there. Yeah, I don't think we're going back to any kind of traditional politics anytime soon. We talked about the kind of desire from Democrats for their own Trumpian figure, but I guess in a positive way, someone who could be a little more agile with the messaging in that way or constantly be shifting with without losing support. And so I do think that's where we're headed. You know, certainly some what we would think of as non traditional political figures.
- [59:10]
Sarah Longwell
Okay. Will Sommer, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to the Bulwark. And thanks to all of you for listening to another episode of the focus group podcast. We'll be back next week, but in the meantime, be sure to rate, review and subscribe. We will see you all next week.
- [59:27]
Will Sommer
Bye.