← The Focus Group Podcast
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- [00:00]
Lauren Egan
Foreign.
- [00:07]
Sarah Longwell
And welcome to the Focus group podcast. I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark, and this week we're checking in on the state of the opposition to Donald Trump. So if you're sick of hearing swing voters bash the Democratic Party, don't worry, because this week you're going to hear the Democratic bill voters bash the Democratic Party. They're seeing what's going on in the country and Democratic leadership's response to it, and they are not thrilled. At long last, we're seeing everyday Americans mobilize in response to what we're seeing from this administration, from the tariffs to the deportations to the Elon Musk of it all. So we're going to talk about what Democratic voters think of our current moment and which party leaders they think are getting it right and which ones they think are getting it wrong. My guest today is Lauren Egan, author of the Bulwarks great new newsletter, the Opposition, which is charting the Democratic Party's path out of the wilderness, or, I guess, whatever ends up happening to it. Lauren, thank you for being here.
- [01:10]
Lauren Egan
Hey, Sarah, thanks for having me.
- [01:13]
Sarah Longwell
Okay. You wrote in your newsletter that you were skeptical of the hype around the hands off protests that drew over a million people around the country last weekend. What did you hear in advance that made you skeptical of it? And also, why was it called hands off?
- [01:29]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, well, I think the branding around it maybe was not the best one, but I was skeptical of it because we've talked a lot about the resistance and how it just hasn't really shown up in the way that it did in 2017. And, you know, just this sort of exhaustion from Democrats who have just wanted to kind of tune out from politics for a minute right after the election, who have just been pissed off at their own leadership. And so when organizers first started hitting me up about the protest for over the weekend, you know, they're playing the expectations games. They weren't telling me that they thought it was going to be over a million people that showed up, but I was still just kind of like, I don't know, guys, like, what about this weekend is going to make people finally, like, get out into the streets and like, why now versus like, not, you know, right after the inauguration? So, yeah, I was pretty shocked. You know, UX organizers, I'll say over 2 million people around the country showed up. But hands off, the term was basically dubbed as like, hands off my Social Security, hands off our jobs, hands off our rights. They're trying to project this sort of like, big tent idea that you can sort of fit a bunch of different things underneath that one umbrella catchphrase. So I think that's really what the Democratic Party, the opposition, is trying to do right now.
- [02:42]
Sarah Longwell
It's not a plan on Donald Trump being, like, a groper.
- [02:46]
Lauren Egan
I mean, you know, I think that there's a little bit of that going on, but that's what I found to be so interesting about the protests these past weekend. Like, it wasn't 2017 where you were, you know, there was some of it. There were still some. Some pussy hats out there at some of these events. That was not what was rooting these protests this past weekend. It was not focusing on women and women's rights specifically. It was very much trying to be like, pocketbook issues, economic issues. Let's bring everyone in to the tent by focusing specifically on that.
- [03:17]
Sarah Longwell
That makes sense. And we are starting to get mail about it. People are like, I am tired of listening to these Trump voters. I want to hear from some. So, okay. Well, the last time we talked to Democrats was around the time of Trump's inauguration. There was a lot of despair, but not a lot of outrage. And I think that despair is not a mobilizing or catalytic emotion. And outrage is when you were talking to people, like, what was getting them.
- [03:45]
Lauren Egan
Out there right after the inauguration. You don't have specific things Trump has done yet to be outraged at. Right. Like 24 hours into an administration or whatnot. Now, a few weeks into it, there are specific things that Democrats. There were people at these rallies who were Trump voters, too. There's specific things that you can actually be outraged at. And a lot of it is the Doge cuts. The organizers around these protests made a big effort to kind of get people who lost their jobs because of a Doge cut to sort of be like, the face of a lot of these protests. And the idea was, like, take a small town in Idaho where the entire Parks Department was cut and get a lot of those people, many of whom Trump supporters, get them to come out and turn some of that general exhaustion into anger and sort of like, more raw emotion that you can harness into some sort of activism.
- [04:37]
Sarah Longwell
Well, the groups that we convened this time that we're going to listen to, there are two groups of Democrats, but they're not the same types of Democrats. So one group wanted the party to move in a more progressive direction. Okay. And then the other one wanted the party to be more moderate. And we left those labels undefined. When we were recruiting them, we just said, does this reflect you, or does this Reflect you. We knew they could sort of mean different things to different people, and I think that they did. So we're going to tease out those differences between the two groups more in some of the future episodes. But today we're just going to notice a lot of what they had in common because this was what was interesting to me when I listened to them is like we try to put them in these differential buckets, but they sounded an awful lot like one another. Right. They are pissed, I would say, is one of the things they have in common. They also do not think that their leaders are meeting the moment, which isn't going to come as a shock to anybody. And as longtime listeners know, we always start the groups by asking the same question, which is just how do you think things are going in the country? So first we're going to listen to what both of these groups said about the state of the country. And I'm going to start with kind of the pro moderate groups. Let's listen.
- [05:49]
Moderate Voter 1
You know, Elon shows up one day on stage with a chainsaw and all of a sudden there's tens of thousands of people losing their jobs, including the people working on the bird flu and working on keeping our nuke safe. These are not people you just rehire in the, in the Home Depot parking lot one day. These are, you know, specialized people. And they were just fired without any consideration to what they do whatsoever.
- [06:15]
Lauren Egan
We talked about the market already.
- [06:18]
Moderate Voter 2
We're certainly not at the low point right now. I don't think we know what the.
- [06:21]
Sarah Longwell
Low point is, but that has a.
- [06:22]
Lauren Egan
Lot of implications for myself and probably everybody.
- [06:25]
Moderate Voter 2
It's impacting my business world. I had a last minute meeting put.
- [06:28]
Lauren Egan
On my calendar today to talk about tariffs.
- [06:31]
Moderate Voter 2
The takeaway was basically, guys, we don't.
- [06:33]
Sarah Longwell
Know what this means.
- [06:34]
Lauren Egan
We're trying to run out scenarios, but we don't know. So it's causing churn. And I think everyone's personal lives and in a lot of people's professional lives, certainly mine.
- [06:45]
Moderate Voter 1
The first time around, there were some checks and balances. Even the people on the right say.
- [06:48]
Progressive Voter 1
Hey, we can control them.
- [06:50]
Sarah Longwell
Now the chains are all released.
- [06:53]
Moderate Voter 1
If you guys haven't read Project 2025, you need to read that this is all part of the plan. Project 2025 has all this in there. Elon was just the add on to it. So the short answer is, welcome to the new regime.
- [07:10]
Progressive Voter 1
My one daughter lives in Northern Virginia. She went to Georgetown. A lot of her friends have been fired from government jobs. Kids that have law degrees from Georgetown and you know why they're being fired? Because they look at their Facebook pages and they see that they might be Democrats. So you're immediately fired if you might be a Democrat. My big thing is where is Congress while he's doing all this stuff? He's breaking laws left and right. You can't be a king in this country. What is Congress doing? And other than Cory Booker, when are they going to stand up? Now, I did hear Rand Paul today say that this stuff with the tariffs was completely out of line, all bad. Maybe he's cracked the case and some of the others will have the nerve to stand up, but I kind of doubt it.
- [08:06]
Progressive Voter 2
Democrats like to take the high road a lot of times and they don't want to fight fire with fire. You know, it's kind of like talking to a child or to an idiot, a fool, from a distance. No one knows who is who. And so it's like, you know, we try to take this high road and Republicans will take an issue even if it's completely fake news, and they'll just beat it down the hatches, you know, just everybody just hammer you down and they're going to talk about it for like 15 weeks, you know, just like they did with Hillary with the emails. And then Trump did the same thing, but that wasn't on the news like that, you know, so they do a really good job of this propaganda. And it's almost like reading like 1984, like George Orwell's 1984. It's like, I'm like, wow, is this like really happening right now?
- [08:48]
Moderate Voter 1
If you want to be a true moderate, you're going to have to sit there and learn to play in the gray. And that's where Democrats fail. They want to be. Everything is candy and friggin pull rainbows out of their ass in unicorns. And unfortunately that's not how it is. It really isn't. You know, it's not about that.
- [09:09]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, so those are the moderates. Those are the people who think the Democratic Party needs to be more moderate. I watched the progressive one first and the progressive one, it made total sense to me. And I was waiting for the moderates. I was like, if you had not told me which group was which, I'm not sure I would have been able to tell. Could you?
- [09:29]
Lauren Egan
I was watching them blindly. Like I didn't have have it pulled up which group was which. And I had to like go back and be like, which one am I listening to? I'm so confused right now. No, you can't Tell just the amount of anger that they have, like, at the party.
- [09:42]
Sarah Longwell
The most striking thing, watching the two groups back to back, which I did, was like, oh, no. Everybody's just really mad and really wants Democrats to. To fight. And honestly, I'm not sure they cared that much about on which points they fight. As long as it looks like they are doing something right.
- [10:02]
Lauren Egan
Totally.
- [10:03]
Sarah Longwell
I know you've been talking to both voters, but also to elected officials. The elected officials must feel this. Right, that their voters are mad at them 100%.
- [10:13]
Lauren Egan
I mean, it's hard to ignore.
- [10:14]
Sarah Longwell
Right.
- [10:15]
Lauren Egan
Like, I don't know how you can not feel it at this point. And you see them try to figure it out with some, you know, more success than others. It was interesting that one. It was one woman brought up Cory Booker, because he's really been the first Democrat who's been able to break through the news cycle in any meaningful way. You know, there was, like, a lot of sort of, like, hand wringing about the, like, corny, like, attempts to go viral on TikTok and stuff, and none of it really worked or felt right or, like, just didn't really feel like you're falling into this bucket of what it means to be a fighter right now. But the Booker thing was, I think, across the party, they felt sort of like, okay, finally someone has figured out something that can kind of work.
- [10:55]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, let's just talk about the Booker thing for five seconds, because I think the reason that the Booker thing did work is because it was kind of inspiring, because it was, like, physically hard. Like, people want to feel like it matters to somebody how bad this is. Right. They want some of the action, and they understand, I think not always somebody in here was saying, you know, what are they doing in Congress? And it's like they sort of forget, like, they don't have a lot of power in Congress. They can attract attention. And I understand, you know, Democrats are quick to, like, be down on stunts, but, like, Republicans love stunts. How many times they just take cameras to the border or whatever. And so I think Booker did something that just felt like it reflected how people are feeling right now. Yeah.
- [11:40]
Lauren Egan
Yeah. Democratic voters have spent the past few years with their party leadership telling them that democracy is on the line, that, you know, if Trump wins, we are completely screwed, and then he wins. And you just kind of see the entire leadership go, oh, no. Like, we're not really sure what to do in this moment. And I think, like, leadership really misunderstood or misread how much that was going to hurt and piss voters off. So, you know, even though Booker's filibuster didn't have like a tangible result or impact to it, I think it finally made people feel seen in a way that really, really matters. When you take into consideration everything that the party, the Democratic Party specifically, has been through in the past 18 months.
- [12:24]
Sarah Longwell
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- [15:31]
Progressive Voter 1
I think we're marching toward an authoritarian regime. I'm honestly terrified the way the government is being completely gutted at every level. The way we've very quickly become an oligarchy where billionaires have all the power and all the say. And on top of that, I am just going to preface by saying my father was a Holocaust survivor.
- [16:04]
Lauren Egan
He talked a lot about what he.
- [16:06]
Progressive Voter 1
Saw happening in Germany prior to Kristallnacht, which he was present for. And a lot of the patterns that happened during that time. The demonizing of immigrants, of trans people, even of disabled people, which I take very personally, being disabled. It's happening. And once people in a particular group are scapegoated, it doesn't take long for other groups to be scapegoated.
- [16:39]
Moderate Voter 2
And college students are being disappeared off the streets and no one can find them. I feel like heartbroken on a daily basis. I can't believe it's only been two months. That is bewildering to me. And like the seas in my heart and chest when I think about that, it's only been two months and we have so much longer to go is horrible. But there's been like a little bit of like a dissonance for me when I'm just like walking around in the world being like, did you do this? Did you do this? Like, all these people that I just like have less trust in, like my community, that this is what people wanted.
- [17:14]
Moderate Voter 1
We're having cases of innocent college students.
- [17:18]
Progressive Voter 2
Being taken off the street because they wrote an op ed and given no due process. You know, we're having migrants snatched up off the street and just sent down.
- [17:29]
Moderate Voter 1
To a prison in El Salvador with no due process.
- [17:33]
Progressive Voter 3
And when people talk about conservativism now, it's not talking about Bill Buckley and guys like that. It's talking about people attacking the Capitol. Those are considered to be, to be the conservatives now. And, you know, I just feel like the country's just had it in a path. And as a 63 year old man, it's like, I want to get out there with my arthritic legs and everything and try to stop it. And it's like I just don't even know where to begin. It's like we're in Nazi Germany or in Argentina or someplace where people, you hear these other countries where people are just picked up and disappeared off the street. And we're actually seeing that now.
- [18:13]
Progressive Voter 4
We are following the authoritarian's playbook page by page. Hitler took over Germany and destabilized it in the span of two months. We are hard to match his record with what he's doing to destabilize our country with his isolationist policies, with tariffs. My great grandfather was also in the prison camps in Poland because of political dissidents. So I'm acutely aware of we're following the exact same pattern that Nazi Germany did.
- [18:42]
Sarah Longwell
So re listening to those clips just now, it does remind me that one thing about the progressives is they compared them to Nazis more aggressively than the moderate groups. Both, lots of rage. But the progressives, they were doing much more of this is an authoritarian playbook. It's funny because a lot of times people ask me about voters and they'll be like, well, don't they realize he's an authoritarian? And I'll be like, voters do not say authoritarian. Which is generally true of sort of swing voters, Trump voters. I will say when you get to like hardcore news, watching progressives, then you hear authoritarianism. But what was your impression?
- [19:18]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, I wrote that down too. Multiple mentions of authoritarianism. And they brought up the term oligarchy on their own, which is obviously something the Democratic Party is really trying to get that sort of out into the ecosphere at the moment. But you know, even still, like, the similarities between the two groups, it just seems like everyone wants someone out there who is quote, unquote, fighting for them. Regardless if you're a moderate or progressive, that is like the one through line within the party right now. And in a way, it's like, you know, we keep having these conversations about, like, what does it actually mean to fight? And I think fundamentally just means to win elections. Like, that's just what Democrats want right now. Also, you know, the multiple mentions of college students being disappeared, that's clearly something that has energized and outraged the left flank of the party. You do hear a little bit more of those big buzzy words that the Democratic Party is trying to focus in on.
- [20:10]
Sarah Longwell
Part of it is they're trying to emphasize just how bad they think it is, like just how dangerous a moment they think we are. And when you hear people sort of expressing that level of danger, you can understand why they feel like the Democratic response right now has been insufficient. Because you wrote in your newsletter recently, where have all the pussy hats gone? And it was really about how all the anti Trump activism during Trump's first term focused so much on women, maybe to a fault. And you also wrote about how AOC and other younger leaders know how to strike a balance in a way that some of the old guardians, which I think is really true. Like, I find myself in a way, on a policy perspective, I might agree more with the old guard, but from a temperamental needing to figure out a way to meet the moment, there's no doubt that, like, even Bernie and AOC are just finding better ways to, like, connect with people. So, like, I know I just said Bernie, and he's very, very old, but Bernie's supporters are young. And so, like, what do you think about the generational divide in the party? Like, what do you think is happening there?
- [21:14]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, Bernie's especially interesting because he is old, but I think a lot of it is. And this word almost just gets overused at this point, but it's true is there's an authenticity element to it. When Bernie gets up there and he's doing his whole oligarchy thing, like, that feels like what Bernie Sanders actually means, that outrage and his talking points feel genuine to who he is. It doesn't feel like he's sort of pandering or playing a game. It feels like what Bernie Sanders is saying is fundamentally what he believes in. I think some of the issues you get with other members that are in the party that are a bit older is you can tell that they're just kind of like, trying to go through, like, oh, what was it that my consultant was saying to me the other day about, like, this thing that is supposed to message test really well. You can see them almost doing this, like, calculation in their head about what they think voters want to hear, which just like, never, ever works. You know, on some level, it's. It's almost condescending to voters. It's kind of, in a way, communicating that. You don't think that they can see through that, because they can. And it sort of reinforces all these ideas about, you know, the Democratic Party just being too elitist and relying on these class of consultants instead of just being like a normal human who's out in the world having normal relationships with people and understanding that, like, tariffs are a big deal because of X, Y, Z reason. And it's not necessarily just an age thing. The way it's playing out in the Democratic Party right now is usually on age lines. But Bernie Sanders is a clear example of, like, it doesn't have to just be an age thing.
- [22:43]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. So I always think now about, like, our phones, not just about social media, but about our phones and the way that now we are used to people talking to us all the time. Like, we have parasocial relationships with everybody. And, like, you can see people's wheels turning. You can tell when somebody is using talking points versus when they're just saying the thing that they think, which is sort of why Booker was good. He had to talk for so long that, like, it couldn't be fake or rehearsed. He just had to keep talking and say the things that he meant and cared about. And so the generational part, to me feels like older people will still tolerate to a degree, sort of the professional class of politicians that has to behave a certain way, whereas younger people, but also all of us, as we become socialized differently because of our phones and because Donald Trump changed the relationship that we have with the president, who now we also feel like we have a parasocial relationship with. It's like, no, we sort of want somebody in our face telling us the truth. And that. That's why maybe younger people, though, are just demanding it harder because they don't have that threshold for, like, the professionalized consultant speak stuff.
- [23:56]
Lauren Egan
Totally, totally. And they grew up seeing their, like, favorite celebrity get ready in the morning, you know what I mean? Like, it's just a different expectation. I also think, like, not to get too philosophical about it, but, like, America's the loneliest it's ever been before, so there's like an element of sort of like, wanting that kind of relationship with, you know, whoever it is, your elected leaders, whatever celebrity podcaster, et cetera, et cetera.
- [24:19]
Sarah Longwell
Your favorite podcaster who does focus groups.
- [24:21]
Lauren Egan
Sarah Longwell. Exactly. Wanting to, like, have that kind of, like, friendship or relationship with them and that being sort of the expectation, it's just entirely different and makes no sense to someone who's, you know, a bit older, who didn't grow up with social media. It's like, it's a hard thing to sort of understand how if you're, you know, a six year old member of Congress, how someone who's 18 years old, who that's been their entire life, it's a hard thing to understand. And clearly plenty of Democrats are having a challenging time grasping this dynamic.
- [24:57]
Sarah Longwell
All right? So I know we've talked about the Cory Booker of it all. But I want to even go deeper on it because we're just hearing people like a primal scream for some kind of leadership. And like they get it from booker. He's doing 25 hours straight. He breaks the record. And this came through in the groups, like the voters were focused on this. And this is where I guess I wanted this included, even though we've already talked about it. I wanted to let people hear what people said because they brought it up unprompted. And I think it answers the question that I know I was getting from reporters and that maybe you were asking people like, well, does it matter? I just wanted to play sort of what people thought about it and what they said. And I'll say the first three clips, they are the more pro moderate voices and then the last one's a progressive. Let's listen.
- [25:43]
Moderate Voter 1
I don't know if you saw Cory Booker the other day with his 25 hour filibuster. That has to make something change in our party. He called it the moral moment. We all have our moral moments and we're discussing that now. And it's terrible.
- [25:59]
Progressive Voter 1
Until Cory Booker, they've been just sitting there getting wiped out. And they need to start now finding a good candidate for the next election because it's just not gonna work. And as much as I would have liked to have seen Kamala Harris elected, I don't think this was the year for it. Biden should have stepped down sooner and there should have been a primary and there should have been other candidates. But in any case, the Democrats had better stand up and say something because if they don't, we're going to see Trump in for a third term.
- [26:31]
Moderate Voter 1
Booker, you know what, his filibuster was great, but it was worthless. Because the problem is again, we're back to square one. He doesn't have the numbers. And that's the problem.
- [26:42]
Progressive Voter 4
The only people who are standing out at all, Cory booker with his 25 hour speech is one of the few in mainstay public appearance who's doing anything at all. And even right after that, the Democrats all went and voted yes. So what was the point of that really? Aoc, Bernie Sanders, Jasmine Crockett, they're some of the only ones who are actually having any level of progressiveness versus Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi, who are established, centrist, traditional style Democrats, which are basically like Republicans.
- [27:15]
Sarah Longwell
So, you know, the one guy who was kind of down on what Booker did, he's not down on it. Because he thought what Booker did was bad. He's like, I want to win elections. And I would say that he was a real outlier. Everybody else was very pro Booker doing this just to do something. But one of the things that's interesting to me is, like, Booker's not like, aoc. Like, he's a different kind of politician from your aoc, Bernie Sanders, Jasmine Crockett, and some of the people that I think have been out there. What has been the reaction in Democrat circles because Booker also happened in conjunction, basically, with the Wisconsin election. And so there was, like, a little moment, and then we've had the protest. So, like, are Democrats feeling a sense of. We're kind of back, like, getting our groove.
- [27:57]
Lauren Egan
This past week, you just felt, like, this huge sigh of relief amongst Democrats that, like, okay, finally, like, we've had a good moment and we can ride this for the next few weeks. But that plus, yeah, Wisconsin Supreme Court election and then overperforming in that Florida special election was seen as a real energizing moment. And I had a good conversation. It was in one of our. Our newsletters last week with John Anzloni, one of the Democratic pollsters who did a lot of polling for Biden. And he was kind of like, he's.
- [28:28]
Sarah Longwell
Been a guest on this podcast.
- [28:29]
Lauren Egan
Yes, he's great. And he was kind of like, look, I'm excited. We can all be excited, but margins matter. Margins in 2026 matter. So let's not sit here and say, like, okay, we can just, like, let the pendulum swing back in our direction and say, sure, we're probably going to have great midterms elections. Like, if we win the house by five seats, great, but we need to win by, like, 20 plus seats. He was sort of giving, like, a warning to the Democratic Party to not get too amped up or, you know, just out over their skis about what this past week, what lessons you can learn from it for where things might be headed in the midterm elections. A lot of cautious optimism, I would say.
- [29:11]
Sarah Longwell
I know him and sort of follow his stuff. But was his concern that Democrats would get some wins and that that would keep them from making the requisite changes necessary to sort of do what needs to be done to really win in 26, that they would kind of rest on their laurels? Because I know John, he really thinks, like, the party's got to do some reckoning and make some changes still.
- [29:34]
Lauren Egan
That was exactly his point, that, like, remember all that, like, introspection we were doing two weeks ago, we can't stop doing that just because the Wisconsin race, because of these protests, because of Cory Booker. He was really pushing the party to still have those tough conversations. Of course, like, there's total legitimacy to the fact that, like, you can read a lot into what's going to happen in midterms based off of, you know, this past week, we'll see what continues to happen with tariffs. Things aren't going well for Trump at the moment. But he was saying, if we don't have those tough conversations and figure out all the things that went wrong in 2024, it's not just midterms, but it's also 2028. We're going to pay the price at some point. Just when do you want to pay it? Is essentially what he was saying.
- [30:16]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. I mean, there's a trap here. And the trap is you basically take people's dislike for Donald Trump as well. They like us. Again, that is not true.
- [30:29]
Lauren Egan
Totally.
- [30:30]
Sarah Longwell
I've had this happen a couple times where I have started to put out from the focus groups what I'm hearing, which is some real. I guess I'll call it buyer's remorse. But people saying, this isn't what I voted for. Or, like, you know, I wish he'd focus more on the economy. Like, lots of people like what he's doing, but there is a contingent that's not so happy with it. But none of them are really saying, but the Democrats have really gotten it together, and I just find them to be the right place to go from here. And so it's really fair to worry about. Getting caught in the trap of hating Donald Trump is not the same thing as liking Democrats. And Democrats do have to figure out how to make people like them. But the thing that strikes me when I was listening to the focus groups of Dems, is when you see that the Democratic numbers are so low, you're like, this is from their own people who are mad at them for not doing enough. Right. It's. It's not just sending a signal of, we want you to be different. Their plea, their anger is that they feel like this party is being unresponsive to the moment. And so I guess when you talk to Democrats, do you feel like Democrats know that distinction, the distinction between people hating Trump and being mad and wanting them to do something about it, versus feeling like Democrats have a plan that people want to tag onto?
- [31:50]
Lauren Egan
I think that there is a bit of a divide in the party, and I still think that some parts of the party are really struggling to fully understand just how upset voters are with them. Some people in the party have got that. They've got that. We played a role in getting us here to Trump 2.0. We need to acknowledge that we will earn points from voters if we can be upfront with them about that. Some Democrats are fully there. Others I don't think are really willing to have that conversation at all. In part because they don't want to acknowledge their role that they played in it. And too, because I just don't think it matters. They think, what's the point of reflecting on the past? Let's move on. But I think right now we're seeing a lot of Democrats just being unsure of like, what sort of plan they can give voters to latch onto that isn't just purely anti Trump. You know, there's been like a lot of talk about like a housing plan, all these different things. And it's okay. I think right now that there's like a lot of internal debate about it and they're not all on the same page about it. They have time. They do have plenty of time. But there is a sense, you know, when you talk to strategists, talk to them about midterms, they're like, yeah, yeah, well, like, we'll figure it out. But like, we're going to be able to ride Trump's unpopularity and like, we're going to be fine. And it's kind of like, okay, but like again, margins matter and also like, what are you going to do after that? What's your long game here?
- [33:13]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, let's just talk about the margins mattering for one second. I used to say it a lot more going into 2020. Yes, Biden has to win, but does Biden win or is there a thorough repudiation of Donald Trump and this project 2020? It was not a thorough repudiation. And in 2022 it was that Dems beat expectations, but like they're not going to keep running the Herschel Walkers. I mean, Kerry Lake may run every single time for the rest of, you know, human history, but, you know, you sort of can't count on that. Democrats have got to figure out like an affirmative message like, who are you? What is the character of your party? I like to talk to Democrats and be like, why are you a Democrat? And a lot of times it's like, well, we're the party that wants to help people. You know, finding some unifying messages and ways that connect viscerally to people and give them an identity of like, who we are and why we do the things that we do. Why have they lost that sense? Why have they lost the ability to articulate who they are and why they believe what they believe?
- [34:20]
Lauren Egan
When I press Democrats on this, you know, they'll be like, okay, yeah, like we've got to get back to working class issues. We've got to really focus on economic issues, which like, of course, sure. But right now you are not the party of working class voters. What is the plan to actually do that? And there really still isn't one there, which is a very concerning sign for the party. Because right now it does seem like the strategy they are resting on is to rely on the fact that Trump's, you know, right now is, it seems like on a path to totally tank the economy and that they're just going to like let thermostatic politics sort of like carry them through this midterm election. But they do say that they know that they need to become the party of working class voters again. It's just like, what's next? That part's not really there yet.
- [35:07]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, okay. So like we said, even though we kind of tried to set these up as disparate groups, they ended up having a lot of commonality between them. And so I want to just play what the pro progressive, like we need to be a more progressive party camp said just about the party generally like their assessment. Let's listen.
- [35:31]
Progressive Voter 3
I feel there's too much just infighting. They need more direction and they need.
- [35:36]
Progressive Voter 2
To just create better visible platforms instead of like reacting to what the Republicans are doing.
- [35:43]
Lauren Egan
I mean, create some kind of buzz.
- [35:45]
Progressive Voter 3
And, and excitement and originality and to come up with some solutions to what.
- [35:52]
Progressive Voter 2
The Republicans are doing.
- [35:53]
Progressive Voter 3
Because I just feel they're just more reactive than really initializing some kind of.
- [35:59]
Lauren Egan
Strategy and long term plan for our country.
- [36:01]
Progressive Voter 3
So go back to the election. But I mean, they got Kamala Harris kind of the last minute.
- [36:07]
Progressive Voter 2
It just seems.
- [36:07]
Progressive Voter 3
Everything seems so disorganized and they just don't seem they know what they're doing. The party just seems to me like it's like a turtle that's been turned on its back. You know, it's just kind of flailing around hoping that it could somehow right itself. And it's almost like the Democratic Party for once doesn't really have any direction in which way which it should go. I mean, to me it's like either they're going to go in the direction of trying to be more like the Republicans to gain votes, or they're just going to remain in the center and just Kind of like wait for the country to just, like, completely collapse and then try to pick up the pieces after that. But, you know, I feel the same way. I don't feel that my congressional representatives are doing anything, you know, to stand up against it, to, you know, demonstrate that it's Congress that makes the laws, they have the power of the purse. And I just see them just kind of standing by. I mean, they go out and they stand in front of federal buildings and Washington and hold demonstrations, but they're not really doing anything at all to stop the tide. You know, I'm just disappointed in the Democratic Party right now.
- [37:16]
Moderate Voter 2
I think the current Democratic Party keeps pandering to the Republicans who think that Trump is too extreme, and they're doing.
- [37:24]
Lauren Egan
Everything they can to try and win.
- [37:26]
Moderate Voter 2
Those people over to the Democratic Party while simultaneously ignoring everyone else in the Democratic Party. I want universal health care. I want college education to be affordable. I want daycare to be affordable. Like, these are things that you could actually be trying to do something instead.
- [37:41]
Lauren Egan
Of trying to pander to a group of people who are never going to agree with you.
- [37:45]
Moderate Voter 2
Just because they don't agree with Trump.
- [37:47]
Lauren Egan
Doesn'T mean they're immediately going to become.
- [37:48]
Moderate Voter 2
Okay with every other Democratic policy. Just ignore those people. Those people are on their own.
- [37:54]
Lauren Egan
Try and cater to the people who.
- [37:56]
Moderate Voter 2
Are already on your side. I find the party to be stale and just like, recycling the same thing over and over and over again and making no progress, but not learning from that. When it comes to, like, what I view as being progressive or what progressive means to me, like, to me, like, Rashida Tlaib, I'm not in her district, but I'm nearby her district. Like, she is a hero. And I think that people need to be more like her. I think right now there are no moderates. Like, if you look at who is leading the country, like, that's not moderate behavior. And so on the right, they ran with that. They ran with that. Being progressive. But just like, in this, like, totally terrifying, radical, conservative way, them actually showing.
- [38:38]
Progressive Voter 4
A spine would be a delightful change of pace. I have been calling my Congress people every damn day telling them to not go along with the Cabinet approvals, to not rubber stamp things just because you're in the minority, they have not done a single thing. I've got two Democratic senators in my area, and one is retiring after this year, so he does not care. And one is such a centrist that I think she's Republican.
- [39:05]
Sarah Longwell
So that last person is talking about Alyssa Slotkin. So she's from Michigan as a personal lover of Alyssa Slotkin. I know what she's saying. Like, the woman who's talking about Rashida Tlaib and I want universal health care. Like, there are in the progressive camp. Some people, like, they wanted to see Democrats go fight on policy, but, like, mostly they just wanted to see them fight. Like, I think if Alyssa Slotkin, because she is more centrist, which is one of the reasons I like her. It's one of the reasons she got elected in Michigan, a state that Trump won. But I think if Alissa Slotkin just basically stayed exactly the same as who she is, but just started to speak out against what Trump was doing, that she could win this woman over. Actually, let me ask you, if this is true, which do you think the Democrats Party wants more of? Do they just want people to stand up and do something, anything, whatever is comports with their own personal values, or do they want them to advance policy things in the moment?
- [40:02]
Lauren Egan
Totally the first one.
- [40:03]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [40:03]
Lauren Egan
And like, all these voters, too, like, throughout the conversation, many of them did acknowledge the fact that they know that Democrats can't advance any policy goals right now.
- [40:12]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [40:12]
Lauren Egan
I think if you get deeper into the conversation with folks, they just want to see someone who they feel like is fighting for them. It doesn't matter if it's moderate or progressive. They just want their outrage and their anger to feel seen and reflected in their leaders. That's kind of the whole ball game right now.
- [40:28]
Sarah Longwell
And, you know, this thing where they want the fighting is creating these funny alliances where you saw, like, AOC apologizing to Conor Lamb because she feels like Fetterman's being too accommodating. Like, people are mad at fetterman. But Mallory McMorrow, right. She's somebody who's running for Senate in Michigan, and she's certainly not what you would think of as, like, an AOC progressive. But she is saying, like, Chuck Schumer's got to go. Right? Like, are the incentives now changing in the Democratic Party towards just, like, part of fighting means we got to change who we are, we got to change the face of the party. We need a more not progressive, but aggressive approach. Because that sounds to me like McMorrow is. That's what she's pitching.
- [41:08]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, 100%. I think that this midterm cycle, it's going to be all about style and not about, like, any sort of ideological lines whatsoever. And I think the Chuck Schumer thing is going to be a real litmus test for Democrats in these primaries. Anyone who's running for a Senate is going to get asked whether or not you'd back Schumer as leader again. And I think, you know, her answer is pretty indicative of where these electeds who are running for office, where they see the base of the party being right now. It's a sense that, you know, this current leadership is just too old. It's too. I think someone used the word like unoriginal. Stale.
- [41:48]
Sarah Longwell
Stale was the word a bunch of people were using.
- [41:50]
Lauren Egan
Stale, which was a good word to use, I think, for how a lot of people are feeling about it. Like, they just need someone who has a bit more energy and like, has the fight in them. Like, that's not Schumer, you know, And I want to be like, careful. Like, there's definitely an age element to it. But we see the same thing with voters and Jeffries and he's a lot younger than Schumer. There's a sense that he's also pretty stale and he just doesn't have the fight or the energy for this moment. So, you know, age is a thing, but it's not the whole thing.
- [42:19]
Sarah Longwell
We are going to get into Schumer real quick as we close. But I didn't include the Jeffrey stuff. I was very surprised in the groups. I'm going to let you listen. People were like, the moderates are like, schumer's got to go. Then they were also like that about Jeffries. And I was like, really? They kind of have this just like, if people are not going to do something, they are not meeting the moment and they're not the right person for now. Okay, speaking of Chuck Schumer, the pro moderate Democrats we talked to, they just like strongly agree he was past his prime. Let's listen.
- [42:50]
Moderate Voter 1
I like him, but he may not be what we need. Someone mentioned before about, like seasoned politicians, you know, people who have been in politics their entire lives. He's one of those guys. I think he's used himself up, you know, the good job. Let someone else have a chance.
- [43:08]
Lauren Egan
Now.
- [43:08]
Moderate Voter 1
Don't ask me who else, because I don't know. I think that Chuck Schumer is a decent guy. I think he legitimately goes to Washington to do the business of the people. You know, where we've got so many people in Congress who all they care about is their next reelection and special interests that have funded their campaigns. I don't feel that Schumer is that way. However, he's been there in that position for too long for the Democrats to be in the position that we're in the position of now. He's been there for too long. He hasn't shown any results. You know, we're not seeing anything coming from his tenure as the Democratic leader in the Senate. And, you know, as I say, the proof is in the pudding.
- [43:52]
Progressive Voter 2
It's just, you know, him and like, for instance, like a Pelosi. It's just when Republicans hear those names, it's just easy for them to just be like, they already know because Trump and everyone else is just hammered down their throats that they're just terrible people. It's just too easy, you know, to, to just dismiss them and to make fun of them and all that kind of stuff. So there needs to be some new blood. I feel like just some newer blood, a newer face where there's just, you know, they don't have as much quote, unquote, dirt on, on them. It's just, it's just so, so easy for them to just bring up things in the past. And just because they have that track record of, you know, being a Democrat. I don't think he's. He's bad. I don't think he's a bad guy. I think he's definitely for the people, but it's just adding fuel to the fire. They new blood has to happen and has to come. And it seems like Republicans have these new names and new faces. They fight with each other all the time, but you're always hearing somebody, someone new, some. Some new bigot that's out there. You know, they, they just have plethora of these people. And it's like the Democrats, it's kind of the same, same figureheads that you see all the time, and we just need some new blood.
- [44:59]
Sarah Longwell
I think one of your newsletters was about Schumer having a Biden moment, but I wonder if the whole party is having a Biden moment where there's just this sense of, all right, we've been nominating people who are too old, who've been around too long. And like, that too old thing really screwed us this last time. And like, these are the people who let it happen. And so they've been in Washington too long. And in 18, like, speaking of Alyssa Slotkin, like, a bunch of the people who have been rising up through the ranks are people who came in, in a wave of opposition to Trump in 2018. And I wonder if you think there's gonna be this new blood. Like, is there gonna be a flood of people that are gonna run in races that are gonna be new and exciting, that are gonna like, change the character of the Democratic party going into 2028. What do you think?
- [45:44]
Lauren Egan
Yeah, definitely. I wrote a piece a few Democrats might be headed for their own Tea Party moment. And there's been a lot of conversation about this. And I do think that's kind of looks like what we're headed towards, where it's going to be, you know, not Tea Party in an ideological sense, like we saw with Republicans. And we're already seeing it with, with some younger Gen Z type candidates announcing congressional races, a younger brand of candidate, a more online type of candidate challenging sitting Democrats. It does seem like that the party's ripe for that at this moment. And there seems like there's a real appetite. I mean, like all those voters were saying, I don't dislike Chuck Schumer. I just, like, don't think he's the right guy for this moment. So I think that that's definitely what we're probably gonna see as we head into the midterm elections.
- [46:31]
Sarah Longwell
Well, some new blood probably can't hurt. Lauren Egan, thank you so much for joining, joining us. And thanks to all of you for listening to another episode of the focus group podcast. We'll catch you next week, but in the meantime, remember to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, subscribe to The Bulwark on YouTube and become a Bulwark plus member at the bulwark.com. we'll see you later.