S5 Ep5: 'I'm All For Deportations, But...' (with Adrian Carrasquillo)

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Focus Group Podcast - S5 Ep5: 'I'm All For Deportations, But...' (with Adrian Carrasquillo)

Introduction

In Episode 5 of Season 5 of The Focus Group Podcast, hosted by Sarah Longwell of The Bulwark, the discussion centers around the early days of Donald Trump's renewed immigration policies. Sarah is joined by Adrian Carrasquillo, The Bulwark’s immigration correspondent and author of the immigration newsletter Huddled Masses. The episode delves into voter perceptions, Democratic shortcomings, and the real-world impact of Trump's immigration regime based on extensive focus group research.

Democrats' Decline in the Immigration Debate

Adrian Carrasquillo begins by addressing why he believes Democrats have lost the narrative on immigration. He explains that Trump’s administration has reframed immigration as an urgent national security crisis, describing it as an "invasion" at the southern border—a tactic that has sidelined Democratic efforts to present a cohesive alternative.

"Donald Trump has made it [U.S. immigration policy] decree that we are being invaded in the southern border... Democrats just have been sort of adrift on immigration." (01:41)

Adrian argues that without a unified Democratic stance, Republicans have successfully created a zero-sum game, making immigration a focal issue that overshadows other aspects of reform.

Average Americans' Perspectives on Immigration

Sarah Longwell shares her observations on the general American sentiment towards immigration, noting a common desire for a balanced approach where the border is secure, and legal immigration is streamlined. She expresses frustration over the dichotomy presented by political discourse—depicting the border as either completely open or entirely closed.

"I listen to voters all the time talk about how they want immigrants to come here... they just want them to do it, quote, unquote, the right way." (03:28)

Sarah highlights the complexity of immigration laws and the lack of public understanding about the challenges of legal immigration, which contributes to unrealistic expectations and support for extreme measures.

Media Influence and Messaging Gaps

Adrian points out the significant role of media, particularly Fox News, in shaping public perception by emphasizing the dangers of immigration and supporting Republican narratives. He underscores the Democratic messaging failure, citing poor communication from leaders like President Biden and Vice President Harris.

"Fox News does very successfully when there's a Democratic president. ... they're doing excess stuff and the shock and awe stuff." (21:25)

Sarah adds that the rise of far-right movements globally is partly a reaction to mass immigration, with economic instability further exacerbating fears and scapegoating of immigrants.

Voter Reactions and Focus Group Insights

The episode features several focus group voter testimonies, offering firsthand accounts of how Trump's immigration policies are perceived on the ground. Voters express a mix of support and discomfort regarding mass deportations and the aggressive enforcement of immigration laws.

Supportive Voters:

• Focus Group Voter (13:57): Expresses frustration with Trump's constant talk about immigration and building walls, yet emphasizes compassion for immigrants fleeing dangerous situations.

  "It is happening. I don't agree with the way that they're doing it." (14:05-14:37)

• Focus Group Voter (33:21): A Hispanic voter supports mass deportations, citing concerns over job availability and community safety, while acknowledging the emotional toll on families.

  "I feel like we need to just take care of our own backyard before we start opening it up and letting all these people come in." (34:27)

Critical Voters:

• Focus Group Voter (42:09): Shares personal fears and negative experiences with ICE raids, expressing discomfort with how deportations are handled, especially involving children and families.

  "I'm concerned that ICE is not doing their job properly... I still felt fearful, because I'm not doing anything wrong." (43:18)

Sarah and Adrian discuss these contrasting perspectives, emphasizing that Trump voters are not a monolith. Some support aggressive immigration policies for economic and security reasons, while others are uneasy with the execution and humanitarian implications.

Impact on Communities and Education

Voters describe tangible effects of immigration policies on their communities, particularly in education and public services. Concerns include overcrowded classrooms with non-English speakers and the closure of local hotels used to house undocumented immigrants.

"My child goes to school, you know, he's 14. And again, yeah. He's like, ... some of these kids don't speak English very well." (25:55)

Adrian notes that these community-level impacts fuel support for stringent immigration measures, despite the personal and societal costs involved.

Birthright Citizenship and Policy Challenges

The conversation shifts to the contentious issue of birthright citizenship, spurred by Trump's executive order to end it. Voters express fears that this could lead to more individuals exploiting the system to secure citizenship for their children, complicating the legal landscape.

"I'm concerned about this law he's trying to put into place about taking people's, like, birthrights away." (49:19)

Adrian highlights the constitutional barriers to eliminating birthright citizenship, noting that despite voter sentiments, the policy change is unlikely to succeed without constitutional amendments.

Puerto Rican Experiences with ICE Raids

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on Puerto Ricans being disproportionately affected by recent ICE raids, despite their status as U.S. citizens. Adrian shares several high-profile incidents where Puerto Rican individuals were mistakenly targeted, highlighting systemic issues within immigration enforcement.

"One of them was in the ICE raid in Newark. He was a warehouse manager, He's a military veteran... he's a US citizen." (55:14)

These incidents have led advocacy groups like the Hispanic Federation to pursue litigation and educate citizens on their rights, underscoring the broad and often indiscriminate nature of current immigration enforcement practices.

Conclusion

The episode concludes by emphasizing the nuanced and divided opinions among voters regarding immigration. While some staunchly support Trump's stringent policies, others are alarmed by the harsh realities of mass deportations and the associated human cost. The conversation underscores the urgent need for Democratic leaders to present a coherent and compassionate immigration strategy to reclaim the narrative and address the multifaceted concerns of American voters.

"There is this sensitivity around some of that stuff... Democrats can fight back on." (52:36)

Adrian and Sarah agree that without effective messaging and policy alternatives from Democrats, the current Republican approach continues to resonate with a significant portion of the electorate, despite the emerging backlash from affected communities.

Notable Quotes:

• Adrian Carrasquillo: "Donald Trump has made it [U.S. immigration policy] decree that we are being invaded in the southern border." (01:41)

• Sarah Longwell: "Americans don't realize that it has become so difficult to become an American citizen, that people are literally willing to be shot coming across the border." (03:28)

• Focus Group Voter: "I'm all for the deportation, but they could probably handle it way better than what they're doing when it comes to like with children and everything." (42:09)

• Adrian Carrasquillo: "Trump is a genius at, no matter how you feel about him, the PR part of it." (17:19)

This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the current immigration debate in the United States, highlighting voter sentiments, policy challenges, and the critical role of effective political messaging.

Transcript

[Sarah Longwell]

Foreign. Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Focus group podcast. I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark, and this week we're covering the early days of Donald Trump's new immigration regime. Now, obviously, for the people who voted for Trump, immigration is up there at the tippy, top of the list of reasons why lots of folks wanted Trump back in power. In fact, he built his entire political career on the back of immigration as an issue. But as with everything Trump, we were all left to wonder just how serious he was this time around about his proposed policies. So far, it all looks like he's pretty serious. But I wanted to talk about what voters are seeing as well as what the Trump administration wants everybody to be seeing. My guest today is the Bulwarks immigration correspondent Adrian Carrasquillo and author of our excellent immigration newsletter, Huddled Masses. Adrian, thanks for being here.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Thanks for having me.

[Sarah Longwell]

Sarah, do people say, yo, Adrian, to you?

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Yeah, since I was little.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'm sorry, I'm so. I was so tempted to do it. I didn't do it. I just commented on my restraints. Yeah. Okay, so you wrote a newsletter a few weeks ago where you said the border debate is over and Democrats lost, and it was really because of the meaningful support that the Lake and Riley act was getting from Democrats. Why don't you just explain why you think Democrats have lost the immigration issue?

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Yeah, I mean, you know, we used to hear for so many years about the DREAM act and about comprehensive immigration reform and about a broken immigration system. What Trump did in his first term is he further broke the system. He took, you know, hatchets, hammers, whatever you want to say to the foundation of our immigration system around asylum and things that are legal immigration pathways to enter this country. But the reason I'm saying that they lost the border narrative is because Donald Trump has made it American U.S. policy decree that we are being invaded in the southern border. There is an active invasion going on. So when he does that, that unlocks a national emergency and that unlocks that we are putting in all these policies as a nation into place that are completely to shut down the border, that diseases are why they're gonna not let in migrants. They wanna use Guantanamo Bay. I mean, they're doing such radical things around immigration and, by the way, harassing US Citizens and different things like that, which I've written about as well. And people who were here legally who have legal status, they're taking away those legal statuses and stopping refugees from coming. So there's so much there. But pretty much Democrats have shown that they have no response. They do not have a cohesive vision on sort of what is too far. Is everything okay? Because then you're allowing Lake and Riley, which now a lot of folks, not just Democrats, think is going to completely erode due process for just Hispanic citizens, increasing racial profiling of, you know, US Citizens and things like that. So Democrats just have been sort of adrift on immigration and. And by Republicans making it this zero sum game, they've just been able to say, hey, you know, that whole broken system, don't worry about that. The border, we're under invasion and this is terrible. And we have to put in all these policies. So that's where that was coming from.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I mean, just to sort of put cards on the table in terms of who you and I are. We don't know each other super well, but I wanna talk about my own views on immigration. You know, I have always been sort of frustrated by the fact that the immigration conversation that we have in this country since seems to be that on one side it's like the border's completely open, and on the other side the border should be completely closed. Very few people think either one of those things, right. So, like, I listen to voters all the time talk about how they want immigrants to come here. Everybody sort of repeats the line back about how America is a country of immigrants. I happen to believe that too. And so I always feel like I could be a decent stand in for maybe an average American where I want us to have a border that works because you want to know, okay, who's in the country. You don't want people to have to break the law as their first act of coming into the country. But at the same time, I want there to be a system. And this is something I think that's tough for Americans because Americans don't have to go through an immigration system. And so this leads to a complete lack of understanding around the Rube Goldberg sort of process that one would have to go through to become an American citizen. And so I hear this from sort of well meaning people all the time. They want immigrants to be able to come here. They just want them to do it, quote, unquote, the right way. And that is a line you hear over and over and over again. And I think for people who immigrated here, you know, many, many decades ago, when it was sort of more straightforward to become a naturalized citizen, they still have this idea in their head of like, well, I did it the right way. Why can't everybody else? And I do think part of where this debate struggles is that people are right to want law and order, they're right to want borders. But also, I think Americans don't realize that it has become so difficult to become an American citizen, sort of quote, unquote, the right way, that people are literally willing to be shot coming across the border rather than try to go through what is the cumbersome process. And so I came up in an age as a Republican where there was like the Gang of Eight and we were going to try to solve this and we were going to overhaul the immigration system. And that just sort of fell apart. And it left an opening for somebody like Donald Trump to come in and demagogue this issue and build his entire political career at it. Like the build the wall thing that he did in his first iteration was the rallying cry that helped him win the Republican primary. Because for a long time, voters just feel like nobody takes this issue seriously and it matters to them. So I just, again, for me, I understand why voters want this to be an issue that somebody is takes seriously. But I also don't think Americans understand how difficult it's become to sort of come into this country legally to work and participate anyway. That's sort of me, I don't know. From your perspective, how do you view immigration policy in this country?

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Yeah, look, I think that a lot of professional Democrats that we know and, you know, can be friendly with and work with have come around, I think on some of the Obama stuff, which was like, we're going to be really strong on deportation. We're going to do this. And they were trying to create, he was trying to create some space for this agreement. And now we know there's just not going to be bipartisan agreement. And I think this small space that Trump drove a truck through was when people say, you should do it the right way, you should come here legally, there should be a line. The other piece of that is human nature, where immigrants have now become a stand in for anything that is negative that's going on that you think is society's ills. I mean, I saw that in the focus groups. Those focus groups are amazing. And these are people who I know we're going to get into it. People who voted for Biden now voted for Trump. First time Trump voters. And you see people saying, well, migrant crime is out of control. And it's like a Latina NYPD cop. You know, I have family that are Trump supporters. I have family that are cops. That's not backed up by stats. There isn't a migrant crime Wave in New York. You know, I've been in New York 40 years. There were four times more murders in the early 90s in New York. You know, I still tell my mother places I'm going in Brooklyn. She's like, don't go there. And I'm like, mom, it's not 1992 anymore. So it's a stand in for people just being like, I'm a cop. And I think that there's stuff going on that I don't like in this city. Right. So I always think that we do look for things to blame, whether that's people who are looking for a job and things like that. I think the demagoguing immigrants part, that part's easy. The harder part is what we've seen in Arizona with SB 1070 and Alabama, where fruit was dying on the vine. People don't want these jobs. They tried to give those jobs of immigrants to African Americans and they walked out after one day. They were like, I'm not doing this job. This job sucks. Then we start getting into the tensions of like, who wants to do these jobs and why are people coming, you just said, risking their lives to come here. What the hell is going on in their country? So it's a complex issue. There's so much here. But yeah, it's, it's interesting where we are right now. It's far from those of ammo days.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, it is a complex issue and one that is now having global political implications. I mean, I think a lot of the rise of sort of the far right that you're seeing globally is in reaction to mass immigration trends that is happening because of global instability. Like, there's all kinds of reasons why we're seeing new migration patterns that are sort of stressing a lot of Western countries and that is leading to the rise of far right authoritarianism. Because they have an enemy, right? There's an out group to form against, and that is like a human instinct to form an in group and an out group and to feel scarcity around resources. And I can't tell you how often this stuff comes up. You just brought this up in terms of the real statistics versus the way that people perceive things. But if you ask people why immigration ranks as one of their top two issues, and it's usually the issue right behind the economy with these voters. They'll tell you it's not just about immigration. It's also related to crime. It's related to human trafficking, which is a thing you hear come up a lot in focus groups. Fentanyl and drugs. All of these sort of are encompassed in the way that people are thinking about immigration. So it's not just an issue of, like, people are here. It's also around who's getting what right. People saying, all these people were bused here into our city and, like, they got this housing, they got this money, and it should be going to Americans. And I think that the political left or Democrats, I go into a lot of rooms of Democrats, sort of as a Republican, saying, hey, here's what I think you guys are missing about voters. And immigration is always the thing I talk about. I'm like, you guys need an answer for this. Why don't you think Democrats have a position? Because I would argue that Joe Biden lost, and obviously, I know it was Kamala Harris, but I think she was burdened by the four years of his administration. I think he lost both because he was 82 years old and people did not think he was up to the job, but also because Republicans were able to say that the border is wide open that is creating a number of social ills. And voters absolutely believe that.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Yeah. There's so much here that's fascinating. I go back to 2020. I talked to Chuck Coughlin, who's a Republican pollster, and he told me in sort of passing, hey, by the way, this is the first time that immigration is not a top issue in Arizona. And I was like, wait, what? And he was like, with economy with COVID immigration had dropped, and Biden won Arizona that year. Right. For the first time in 20 years since Bill Clinton in 1996. So when it is a priority is actually, as you were talking, it was making me think this circles back to how Democrats lost on immigration, because I have these circular combos with Democrats where we talk about everything you just said. And then I say, well, where are people finding out about caravans and the danger of immigrants? Fox News. So it's a messaging problem. Also, I literally just had a CHC member tell me that Biden was a terrible communicator in chief. So Democrats have this messaging gulf on immigration. There's a lot of things there. I don't think that I could give you that one silver bullet. I think that one thing people are talking about, and some people might hear this and sort of roll their eyes, but how do you humanize immigrants? Again, what we were talking about was some of the demagoguery that is easy to happen and that you can do around immigrants. When you were calling someone an illegal alien, you hear people saying, we got to get Those people out, as we're seeing with Trump, those people starts running into racial profiling issues. When you run out of the Venezuelan gang members and you're like, I guess I'm going to go into schools and hospitals and churches. I mean, you know, so that is a slippery slope as well. I think Democrats, you know, Hakeem Jeffries has talked about that the Congressional Hispanic Caucus is going to lead on immigration, and they've talked about farm workers, dreamers, and families. When I hear farm workers and dreamers, that reminds me of, like, 2020, 2021 talking points. Families is a new one that they're adding in about tearing apart families and some of the stuff Trump is trying to do with mass deportation. I think you need to make people understand why this matters to them. I've been thinking a lot about who are the allies on immigration. It can't just be Latinos, and it can't just be immigrants. It has to also be black people, white people. The mayor of Newark, Roz Baraka, is a black man, and he was talking about, we can disagree on politics, we can disagree on the economic impact and benefit that immigrants have, but we can't try to rewrite the Constitution. We can't do unlawful things and detain citizens and things like that when there was an ICE raid in Newark. So they sort of have to settle on these issues and then fight on them, you know, because the way that immigration has been messaged and what they've been doing clearly has not worked. And the only thing I'll add is this data point of November is a huge one, and Democrats definitely know they need to fix stuff. But there's new data points coming in. When you're talking about disappearing people in Gitmo, when you're talking about birthright citizenship, there does feel like there's places that Democrats can take a stand instead of just like, getting rolled over by Trump, because Trump and Miller will roll you over.

[Sarah Longwell]

All right, so I want to get to the voters, and I want to start by talking about what we heard back in 2024 when we convened a group of Clinton Biden voters, but who were leaning Trump for the first time. I want to listen to how they talked about Trump's views on immigration and the idea of mass deportations generally.

[Focus Group Voter]

One of the main things that rubbed me the wrong way with Trump was him constantly talking about immigrants and building a wall.

[Sarah Longwell]

And I felt it was majorly extreme.

[Focus Group Voter]

Because America was founded on immigrants. We're all immigrants. Unless you're an American Indian. We're all immigrants. Whether it's first, second, third generation, whatever it may be. And I think we went from one extreme to the other. And now there's, how do you undo what Biden did?

[Sarah Longwell]

You know, the country was already stressed out.

[Focus Group Voter]

We're already in a recession.

[Sarah Longwell]

You have people that obviously are fleeing countries that probably were fleeing for their lives.

[Focus Group Voter]

And so I'm extremely compassionate for them.

[Sarah Longwell]

But it's a very touchy, sensitive manner.

[Focus Group Voter]

And I think out of respect for everybody involved, there needed to be a solid plan.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Trump came in with fists and came in, you know, with a strong hammer, and now Biden is the complete opposite. And it's tough because I was once an illegal immigrant myself. And it's just unfortunate because, like, as we go along, I find myself, like, I wish there was, like, a middle party instead of, you know, we have to be one or the other. If you're going into a home at 5:30 and you're wrecking a dinner of a family who's got to work the next day and the kids go to school the next day, and you're going, about this operation that Trump is proposing to me, that doesn't sit right at all, and I would not support it. If you're talking about militarizing the deportation process at the border, or if you.

[Focus Group Voter]

Want to put these forces at the.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Border and you want to deal with people at the border, that's perfectly fine, because I do have some friends who are illegal. And, like, they've been here for, I don't even know how many years, decades. I know for him, when Trump was in office, it was very traumatic for him. He constantly thought he was going to be deported. And this is like a blue collar working professional. So it does change my stance a little bit.

[Focus Group Voter]

Generations as far as ripping them away. And I remember the whole camp situation of that. I don't want that to happen. Like, I heard crazy cases of kids getting raped in there or people missing, kids and parents not together, they're abducted. Like, that's what I've heard. And that's not what I want to happen. I don't want that.

[Sarah Longwell]

So I wanted to bring in this from 2024. I remember being really struck by a lot of the groups of Hispanics that I did where they wanted something done about immigration. But they sort of had this fantasy in their head of the way that Trump could really crack down. Like, they believed in cracking down, but they wanted everything done sort of humanely and compassionately. And I would say that is actually not an unusual tendency in all kinds of Voters. I hear this all the time where there's sort of a. Well, I want the border secure, and I want us to do more about that. And I don't think people should be able to just come here no matter what. And so I want somebody to take a strong stand, but also don't tear families apart and don't support people who've been here for, like, a really long time. And so there's a lot of, like, the. It depends that people have. Like, they don't want to be cruel, but they're willing to support Trump to do something about it. And if it gets kind of cruel, it feels like they're like, well, like they don't want it, but they don't also don't have to take responsibility for it, if that makes sense.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Yeah, you know, it's fascinating if you look. And, you know, I cover immigration, so I get these ICE reports. The last one, under Biden, there were 84,000 criminals. There were, like, all levels of crazy crimes. They were kicked out by the Biden administration. Now, what Trump is a genius at, no matter how you feel about him, the PR part of it. Right. He's got the low angle on the military plane. You know, we're getting criminals. But I think that gets to your point. Let's say you declare a national emergency for a short period of time, or you act maybe more normal and you just say, hey, look, we're focusing on criminals and I don't care. That would be done pretty quickly. That's the thing. Right. Because then they're doing the excess stuff and the shock and awe stuff and making it pretty clear, whether from Trump or Miller Musk, that they really want white immigrants to come. So that's where you start writing into. Because I think what you're describing, what we were just hearing, is a lot of folks that had maybe some liberal sensibilities on some stuff. They're not like, talking about immigrant crackdowns and among Hispanics. I remember I wrote one of the first stories in 2016 that was, these are what Trump Hispanic supporters look like. It was a lot of military people. It was a lot of men. And I talked to one guy, he was a Mexican American man from Phoenix, Arizona. And I said, okay, so you support this immigration crackdown? He said, yes. And I said, do you know anybody undocumented? Because a lot of people don't. And that's a big thing. If you don't know someone undocumented, what do you care? And he was like, I do, actually. I have family members and I said, well, aren't you worried they're gonna get deported? And he was like, I never thought about that.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

So this is somebody who knows undocumented people, let alone a bunch of voters. We know that don't. So, yeah, I think what, you know, you're describing, if there could be this middle world, but I don't know that we live in it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, it makes me wonder if this is part of the problem for Democrats is that they've misunderstood this particular type of voter. Right. Because this voter just said, I don't want somebody coming in and tearing apart someone's dinner. I don't like them separating families. You know, like, you hear that? And I didn't go back and check and see whether or not they ultimately did vote for Trump. They were all leaning toward Trump. But my guess is that once you've started leaning, like, you go there, right? And I talked to lots and lots of Hispanic Trump voters. I think this is just where Democrats, they think, well, Hispanics, unlike your white, rural, let's say, MAGA types, people that they have in their head, and they're like, well, Hispanics know people who are undocumented or understand what it means to be a dreamer or are only one or two generations away. And I think they assume that that means those people wouldn't vote for Trump with his aggressive immigration policies. And that just isn't true. Yes, they didn't want the extreme stuff, but they did want Trump to do something about immigration. And also they cared about a bunch of other things, including the economy, and they just didn't think it was gonna come for them.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

I think a lot about nuance in politics. And I remember Bernie versus Hillary debates. And they would say fracking. And Hillary would say, well, and she would describe it for five minutes and then they would go to Bernie and he would say, no. So that's Trump on immigration. And Democrats struggle with the nuance of saying, okay, so check it out. I don't want this open border. And I actually think Trump is opening that up for them now because he's being so extreme that he's allowing them to say, okay, look, so we actually don't support that stuff. You shouldn't disappear people in Guantanamo Bay. But yeah, you know, criminals. So, like, that can emerge again. They still have this messaging problem, but I think that some of that can emerge there. You're right. That has been a big challenge for them with voters.

[Sarah Longwell]

You know, according to Gallup's long term tracking of this question, in June 2024, 55% of Americans said immigration should be decreased, 25% said it should stay at its present level and 16% said it should increase. Now, back in July of 2021, the split was roughly even between those three answers. I know what I would say the change on that is, but what would you say the change? Why? It feels like during those four Biden years, the American people seem to sour more aggressively on immigration.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

I really do think part of it is when we say media, we know that's such a loaded word. But I really do think Fox News does very successfully when there's a Democratic president. Right. So they sold and they did the open borders thing. Biden was not a good communicator on this stuff. And Democrats were sort of adrift on immigration. I think about some of the stuff I heard in some of the focus groups also that you guys sent me, which were a black gentleman saying, oh, I saw an X and he was an anti immigrant thing. Elon Musk owns X. And that has become now a platform that I don't even know. I don't know what your mentions look like, honestly, but I'm sure you see that if, let's say they're mean. Yeah, yeah. Like, I often see that if there's something that's kind of going viral or maybe it's making a point for Democrats or an anti Trump point, the first response is some insane trolling thing from account that seems fake or like a bottle. They've completely changed that algorithm and I think the messaging is such a huge part. I'm giving a lot of previews for my next newsletter, but I was just interviewing the CHC chair, Adriano Espalla, and I was telling him that I'll never forget that during COVID one of the CHC members said, we've got a big problem when we're trying to get life or death information to our constituents. We found out enough of our constituents don't follow us on social media and every one of us cannot be on MSNBC every five minutes. So, like the disconnect between getting your message that bullhorn to the people MAGA right now, Trump administration is being very successful with their PR campaign around immigration. You know, guy's got tattoos, he's a gang member and, you know, one guy had an Air Jordan tattoo. But they really were able to sell that, that like, we're cleaning up the streets, we're cleaning up immigration. And we have to admit, when I interviewed the Denver mayor, who's the mayor of a sanctuary city, one of the top 20 cities in population what Abbott and what DeSantis did. And you know, there was a lot of cynicism there and some cruelty on busing people's cities. But then the blue cities were then confronted with receiving. I think Mike Johnston, the mayor of Denver, said 200 people a day at its height. And then he said people in Denver don't want to see people who arrived in like flip flops and shorts freezing during a blizzard. So they created all these problems for cities. What the Denver mayor did I thought was fascinating where he talked about nonprofits, they stood up these shelters, they got people into these asylum work programs. I think 7,000 people were put into like work programs. But that complicates, right? He didn't have that problem until Republican governors started sending migrants to him. So that's an interesting aspect of like, then you're confronted with this crisis that you didn't ask for and how do you fix it?

[Sarah Longwell]

I think one of the reasons that people have become radicalized on immigration, not just Republicans, but independents and some Democrats, is that they hear a lot, often secondhand. This is sort of to your point about X or whatever, about the negative effects of illegal immigration where they live. So even if their community, let's say, might benefit from immigration or relies on undocumented people for the local economy, they do hear about sort of every crime committed by an illegal immigrant and every complaint about changing communities. Right. So let's listen to what Biden to Trump voters have said about illegal immigration in their communities since the election.

[Focus Group Voter]

I live in a smaller town, like 45 minutes outside of Boston.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

There is a group of illegal immigrants, for whatever reason that have moved to this town over the last several years. Given that my kids are kind of new in schools, I've seen the effect mostly on their education and how they're diversifying the classrooms with these non English speakers and struggling to find teachers that can even help these children. And you know, there's all kinds of different issues. There's two hotels in our town that have been shut down just for illegal immigrants to stay in. And again, I don't live in a huge town. So I think that was a big selling point for me over the summer too, when I kind of made my switch to Trump. I think I was really thinking about my kids future and my town's future and where I wanted to see it. And I'm excited by the potential. And I think we spent a couple dozen deportations already in my town. I know that's probably not as much compared to like San Diego or some other places but it's something when it comes to like immigration. I noticed a big effect in New York. Obviously they were getting bused here by the dozens and that causes effect on.

[Focus Group Voter]

Schools, the school system, it wrecked havoc.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

My nephew, my sister's son, he just tells me like, yeah, like a third of his class doesn't speak English.

[Sarah Longwell]

And personally I think that I have.

[Focus Group Voter]

A problem with that.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

So I'm glad that immigration issue is being addressed.

[Focus Group Voter]

It has to stop.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

You know, you can't just have a faucet running nonstop. That bill's gonna be high. You know, it's gonna cause some water damage, but you're gonna have mishaps. And I know I've read somewhere in New Jersey, a veteran, an actual American veteran, was caught up in an immigration sweep and was held for a few days. And that's going to happen.

[Sarah Longwell]

I get that.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

But it's something that has to be fixed. Once again, it's the same thing of, you know, eggs for omelets.

[Focus Group Voter]

You know, I strayed away from going to Manhattan into the city for so long because it literally felt like I was in a third world country. When I went there, the amount of migrants that were just lining the street up with fold up chairs, boomboxes, radios, they were just drinking out on the street. I literally felt like I was in another country. And it's just like I, as a mother, I would never want anybody to be ripped away from their families. But at the same token, I feel like if things were followed properly and things were done right, you wouldn't be leaving the country in the manner that it's happening. I was raised actually in Tucson, Arizona, so right by the border. And I remember I went to school with DACA students and things like that, but everyone knew English, everyone spoke English. Whether or not that was like their preferred language with just their friends, that was different. And so, yeah, I knew illegal parents, things like that. They all were working, they had their head down, they were just trying to make it and trying for their kids. And then I moved to Missouri, moved away. And then obviously I go back and I visit and I fly. And sometimes on the flights back we might be. I'd say probably 2/3 of the planes are illegal immigrants that I've been on. I've been on several. We're 2/3 of the plane and it was southwest too, so they didn't know anything about where to sit. And it was a whole mess. But I just was like, oh my goodness. Like I used to grow up in a border town. It was never this intense and bad. And then my mom's a principal still over in Arizona, and she says, yeah, we can't get teachers because half of them can't talk to the students. Or we have to have the students interpret this and that. I work at a hotel, and, you know, when we put the immigrants in hotels and we have homeless people that go to work every day, they have to live in their car because they can't afford a house. There's something really wrong here. And it's really hard to wrap your head around that. My child goes to school, you know, he's 14. And again, yeah. He's like, yeah. Let me tell you about this cool language that I learned today, you know, because a lot of these kids don't speak English very well, or they're speaking for their parents, you know.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay. Even though these are people who were formerly voted for Democrats who now voted for Trump, I would say this is pretty typical stuff that you hear from swing voters, Republican voters. So you were saying something earlier, and I'm not sure if I wanna push back on it or at least prod it a little bit, this idea that Democrats don't message about immigration, which I think is absolutely true. And that leaves a gap for Republicans to fill that silence. But also, there's a couple things in here. One, I feel like I do hear about people saying, not just like, oh, I heard something secondhand, but, like, I had this firsthand experience. I hear a lot of this about English not being spoken in schools. And, like, that feels like a real thing culturally to grapple with. And, like, I can understand why there would be some concern about that. On the other hand, you hear things like, well, two thirds were illegal immigrants on this flight. And I'm like, yeah, did you check the manifest? Like, how do you know they're illegal immigrants? Or the woman who's like, these are all illegal immigrants in New York City. I'm like, but are they? Like, how do you know? So it's hard to balance between what I think are people's erroneous sense that there are, like, lots of people that are here illegally who might just be Spanish speaking, but also what you hear in there is kind of a threat to, like, the culture. Right. This sense of it feels foreign to me and therefore unsafe. And like, the second people feel that sense of, like, threat or unsafe, there's something sort of preternatural that kicks in, I guess. How do you balance that or even how did you hear those voices?

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Fascinating. There's a lot of definite stuff for Democrats, and I know, Democrats who get focus groups. And I've heard some choice lines in there too that are really, really tough that you normally don't hear in sort of maybe the everyday media discourse. There's parts there, like you said, that you could push back on. I live in New York, doesn't look like a third world country. That's the one that I was saying was the NYPD cop. There's stuff in there that's definitely, you know, when it, when it comes to people like the economy, when it comes to people's kids, when it comes to education. So like that makes a lot of sense. I got to say, I do think that where the MAGA and the Trump folks and the anti immigrant folks, a vein they're tapping into also is remember doing a story once years ago about how Wichita, Kansas, the high school age kids had gone from 15% Hispanic, 30% Hispanic in like a decade. And so you had all these people that were uncomfortable with that. No one was saying they were all here illegally. But what started happening was anti, like Hispanic and really terrible things written on with graffiti and things like that. And so I also think it taps into that. To your point, is everyone here illegally? This is a country that's changing. I think Texas now is majority. Well, it's not majority white anymore. I think that was a few years ago that this big thing was made about it and that leads to anxieties. You know, I have a little take that's on the other side, which I was thinking while hearing this, I was remembering that, you know, Trump basically lost in 2020 because of COVID People were like, okay, this is not really working for me. And then they reelected the guy. So maybe in a weird way this helps Democrats if, if they feel like immigration is not a top issue anymore because Trump fixed it. I don't know. You know, since the MAGA folks are so skilled at saying this is a huge problem, this is still going on. I'm curious what happens if again, like In Arizona in 2020, if immigration starts dropping because they're like, okay, that was kind of taken care of. And if the economy gets fixed and all those other things.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, that's interesting. If it's a less salient issue, does that actually hurt Republicans the same way that when abortion was more salient at the local level, it helped Democrats, but when it's a federal issue and people don't necessarily see the federal government as having nearly as much control over abortion and it was lower in salience, it didn't dominate the election the same way yeah.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

In 2022, right after the Dobbs decision, it's this huge issue for Democrats in 2024, they try to make it as huge as true again, and it's not. And I don't know if you remember the caravans in 2018, there were so many caravans coming. We were in big trouble. And right after the election, when there's not a red wave, Trump stops talking about the caravans. It's not an issue anymore. Right. So that is also interesting on what we prioritize and what we hear as big issues in the media.

[Sarah Longwell]

All right, let's keep going with these voters, because these Biden to Trump voters split when we ask them what they've seen of the Trump administration so far and what they think of mass deportations generally. And there are some who have some misgivings. There are others that are ready to see, like, let's do it. Let's do all the deportations. So let's listen to the latter category.

[Focus Group Voter]

I'm Hispanic, so obviously I live in a predominantly white neighborhood. So my daughter did ask me what happens if, you know, they come.

[Sarah Longwell]

And I'm like, honey, you don't have.

[Focus Group Voter]

To worry about that here in this country legally. But it is happening. And I don't agree with the way that they're doing it. I also do have family that are in the Border Patrol. I mean, and they say, you don't understand how many people. I mean, he goes, I fear for.

[Sarah Longwell]

My job when I'm on the field.

[Focus Group Voter]

Because people are chasing me down, trying to get me to give them asylum, you know? And he goes, I just fear for my safety. So from that standpoint of law enforcement, they're just tired of it, too, and they were ready to have someone else in office that was actually going to make a change. I do think that the mass deportation is necessary simply because they open up the border to people to let them come over here and they house them and giving them all these different benefits. And we have nearly a million people in this country that are homeless. I feel like we need to just take care of our own backyard before we start opening it up and letting all these people come in. And there are people that have been waiting to. To get into this country legally.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

They should be priority as far as children being taken. You just have to put the blame on the parents that brought them here.

[Focus Group Voter]

There's no pleasant way to go about.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Enforcing laws and making sure things are the way they should be. And as tragic as I see some of these images online, I mean, it's just something that has to be done. I'm not glad to see people hurt, but I'm just glad to see it being enforced.

[Focus Group Voter]

I'm happy to see that this is happening, and I feel somewhat bad, but not enough for me to be like, no, don't do it. You know, I need the US to be taken back because it was like a free for all. And that's not okay. That's not okay. We can't even go and enjoy the place that we live as citizens, you know, due to fear. I'm fearful, and I'm an officer. You know, I don't want to always have a firearm on me or something to feel like I'm protecting myself, because I also know what that's capable of doing. I feel like it's good that Trump is trying to get, like, the people who are undocumented because there's too many. Like, that's why there's no jobs. And if you do find a job, they want to pay you, like, nothing. So I feel like it's fine. I don't have nothing against what they're doing other than, like, yeah, they're separating families, maybe if they can, like, take them away together, but I'm for what they're doing here. Locally in San Diego, one thing that I've seen literally driving down is the presence of ICE vehicles a lot more prominent around our neighborhoods, especially ethnic neighborhoods. So I think that has caused somewhat of an uproar within the community. Just, you know, like, folks like, damn, like, he's really out here. Like, as soon as he got into the office, like, some of the things he's pushing out are happening in real time. And so we're seeing families process this.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Oh, what does it look like when.

[Focus Group Voter]

I go pick up my kid from.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

School and there's six ICE trucks lined.

[Focus Group Voter]

Up right outside of the cafeteria, just waiting, right? Asking every kid, where are your papers? Who's your parents? Is that your grandma? Where are her papers? Like, these are happening in my communities right now. So I think seeing that is like, oh, okay, he's pushing it out, I think, just coming to terms with that. I think some things we might not see eye to eye on, but once you start to see your neighbors and families, like, man, like, our grandpa just got deported, you know, or stuff like that. That's just part of what needs to happen.

[Sarah Longwell]

So I have been asking about immigration for years, and I think that there's a sense that people are like, well, if you go out into these communities and you are deporting people that there's going to be an enormous backlash. And I'm, like, moderately skeptical of that. Just like listening to what is clearly people who are like first generation Americans saying, like, this has got to happen, like, yes, a grandpa just got deported, but, like, gotta happen. That is where people are, including a lot of Hispanics. So. But does that feel shocking to you or does that feel like, no, this is about what I hear from people I talk to.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Yeah. I don't think it feels shocking. If we have both agreed that, like, you know, Biden was not effective and people thought it was open border time and something needs to be fixed, I think people are going to give Trump that space to fix that. So that part doesn't seem shocking to me. For a while I've thought that this is all going to hinge on where is the economy a year from now and things like that, where, you know, if he does all this stuff, and in plenty of those focus groups, people also said he's going a little too far, but I'm okay with it right now. You know, like, there's certain things they don't like that he's doing, but altogether they're still supportive of the mass deportation effort. If the economy's in bad shape, I think people are going to be like, yeah, this guy's done. He's sort of past his prime and the economy is great. I think they're just going to forget about the stuff that they didn't feel super comfortable about. That is something that I've, I've kind of, you know, returned to from time to time.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, I mean, I, I think we'll listen to some of the people who are a little, like, less comfortable who voted for him, but like, those people, because there was a mix in the groups, but, like, there were a lot of people who felt perfectly comfortable, perfectly comfortable with the stuff that I think Democrats are banking on people having kind of a weak stomach for. You know, I think family separation in the first Trump administration was something that really that hit a lot of people in a way that they're like, oh, I don't like this. These are just kids being taken away from parents. I feel like we might be in a place where people are less queasy about that this time around because they're a little more like, I'm just going to give him the space to do what he needs to do. Does that feel right or does that not feel right?

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Yeah, I mean, I think that's why they're honestly trying to take away people's due process. Trying to ship people out, whether it's out of the country. You just came in, we're shipping you out. We're going to say that there's diseases, reasons, tuberculosis. We're going to send people to Guantanamo Bay because I think they don't want the footage to emerge and the stuff, because I do think that we are, as humans, many people are empathetic. We can see from a lot of the politics around some of this stuff that some people just don't care. But a lot of people, they don't want to see kids suffering. They don't want to see families torn of power. Where you have, you know, ProPublica in, in his first journal, not sure of the year, they had footage of a teen young man, 16, and he just like, wasted away and died. And there was footage of it. Yeah, I mean, so when you start seeing stuff that's more extreme, because this is such a polarized issue that it does seem sometimes that you need to get to another level. When I covered immigration during Obama's first term, that's when people were claiming sanctuary in churches. I almost felt myself self censoring. Like, I'm like, okay, well, people don't care about these stories anymore. And then all of a sudden, it was a guy, he was an abuser and he called ice on his wife who was pregnant. You know what I mean? And that I was like, okay, this rises to a terrible situation that should be written about. So that's the thing where I wonder, are they to make sure that there's not footage and images coming out of detention centers that will show the bad state that people are in in those detention centers? Because I think you're right that right now people are okay with the first phase of this.

[Sarah Longwell]

And you wrote about a guy named Steve Cortez, a MAGA friendly businessman who's making many documentaries about illegal immigration that are designed to actively head off media efforts to make Trump's mass deportation plan. He's assuming they're going to try to make sort of like kids in cages 2.0, and he's trying to, like, get ahead of that. And you also write about a Democratic media consultant who's pitching around a similar idea, trying to tell the counter narrative on immigration. Do you think Trump is more immune to the public backlash than he was eight years ago? Or do they still, I guess your point is they do still want to try to keep some of this stuff out of the public eye because you think the backlash is still there.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Even Steve Cortez said that people don't want to see fathers ripped from their children, he said, whether they're, quote, U.S. citizens or illegal aliens. So, you know, I think there definitely is this sensitivity around some of that stuff. I don't have to tell you. I'm sure you guys talk about it all the time on the different podcasts. It's like where he's doing sort of five to seven crazy things a day there becomes that thing of like, some get through. You know what he's talking about, you know, redeveloping Gaza. Some people are horrified by that. But he's also talking about taking over Canada and the Panama Canal. And then people are like, oh, I don't have time for be outraged about that, you know. So, no, I do think that they are benefiting from this flooding the zone thing. And I'm curious what that looks like a couple of months from now.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, Now I do want to turn to some of these Biden to Trump voters who are sort of queasy about what they're seeing because I think the people we heard before, you're probably not going to reach. They are people who are like, nope, I understand that they're going to hit me with stuff about kids in cages. And I just, this is what's got to get done. And so they have a pretty utilitarian approach, but there's a bunch of other people in the groups who did not feel that way. So let's listen to those.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Now, I'm all for the deportation, but they could probably handle it way better than what they're doing when it comes to like with children and everything. Because it, if I was a child and a bunch of grown ass men or women or whatever with badges or whatever the hell they were come in and just take you out of class and don't tell you anything, that would honestly scare the shit out of me. And not just scared, but also embarrass me because everyone's staring at you, giving you looks. The kids might not know, but the adults probably do. So they could probably go about it a better way. I'm gonna be honest with you. It kind of sucks seeing that you have people working hard providing for their families just to get sent out. I mean, it's, it's disgusting. So I don't really like that part of it. That's why, although I'm optimistic, I want to see some change with that because I'm be honest, it hits close to home with that. And it's kind of like one of the things that's kind of important that in the economy so right now, I'm not liking the direction he's going in. Hopefully it gets either better or less. Kind of, I guess, like fearful, you.

[Focus Group Voter]

Can say in that sense.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

I wish it was more leniency, and I wish it was more of, like, understanding and reassurance, because it just feels like they're just picking people up and just kicking them out.

[Focus Group Voter]

I'm concerned because he said that he was first going to go after the ones that had, like, a criminal background. And I've been hearing a lot of people being taken in who don't have a criminal background. So that is concerning. And even people that are not immigrants, I've even heard of, like, Puerto Ricans being taken in. So that is all very concerning that ICE, or whoever ICE is working with or whatever, they're not doing their job properly. And it just makes me not trust what he said he's going to do. I mean, I don't know what he's going to do after he goes after everybody who has a record. Who's the next people he's going to go after? That is concerning. I live in a predominantly. It's 86% white. I'm in my gym class. I'm the only Latina. In the last two weeks, I've been verbally attacked. This is a gym class that I've been three years. Verbally attacked in front of the whole gym class. I was also road rage in the last two weeks. And also they attacked my mom. My mom was up here now. My mom lives in Newark. Isis was all over Newark. And I was riding around. I'm like, oh, my God, it's so quiet here. My mom's like, martha, it's like a desert out here. It was a whole different world in Newark. Like, Newark is like a desert. Like, everywhere you go, every so quiet. Supermarkets are quiet. We're like. We're like, going around like, what the heck? Now I live an hour away, which is Sussex County, 86% white again. There's women that I worked out with, with for three years that don't speak to me now. Okay? I can't explain to you. I don't. I hope that this administration understands what it's doing and it's understanding that it has to be accountable. Because, again, okay, you could come in for change, but we have to be very careful what you're saying, because, again, people are suffering. And I'm not going to lie to you. When I went to Newark, I felt fearful. I was like, wait a minute, are they going to stop me? And I'm on the phone. My mom, like. My mom's like, you're a U.S. citizen. You were born and raised here. I still felt fearful, and I should not feel fearful, because I'm not doing anything wrong.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

You know, I thought it was supposed to be directly for people that had felonies or had a background to them, that they were going to be the ones targeted, not the ones that, you.

[Focus Group Voter]

Know are actually here, because that's hitting close to home.

[Sarah Longwell]

So I want to take this opportunity to highlight something that oftentimes people are like, well, what do voters in your focus group say? As though voters are going to be kind of like a monolith in some ways. But these are all people who had previously been Biden voters. They voted for Trump for a variety of reasons. And you can hear the stark difference between the way some of the people feel and the way others. Right. Others are like, everybody's got to go. I see what he's doing, and I like it, because this is too big of a problem. And then other people are like, this is not what I thought was gonna happen. I thought we were just going after criminals. I didn't think it was everybody, and it's scaring me. And that is where you get people who are persuadable that this is going too far. Right. They represent a meaningful slice of Trump voters. And this is why you shouldn't say, like, well, all Trump voters are racist or all Trump voters want everybody deported. Right. It is a mix. And I think there's a fair number of Trump voters who voted for him and maybe did not realize this is what it was going to look like.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

One of the women in the focus groups, we didn't hear that part, but she talked about the DREAM act, and she was kind of like, we need to give up on that. And I was like, oh, wow. She's the same lady in New Jersey who talked about being verbally abused by women that she's been going to the gym with for three years, about her mom being attacked and about being a victim of road rage. When it affects your life, that's just how we are as humans. When it affects your life, you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I didn't sign up for this. And we know that New Jersey is a place where Trump grew his support. These blue states where he didn't win, but he's growing his support. It also made me think about. I recently wrote a story about schools and about administrators and teachers and principals being terrified in the schools. The other part of this is people are not with a megaphone saying, I'm doing this, I'm opposing Trump, I'm part of the resistance, because I spoke to a principal in Chicago who told me, I'm terrified. My teachers are crying in our, like, staff meeting, and I'm wondering, do I have to hide kids from ice? So there are people being affected who are also, like, not going to put it out there and start saying, you know, that they're opposing Trump because they're scared of what's going to happen.

[Sarah Longwell]

Is that in your reporting? Like, do you feel like you're getting that sense from people that they were like, oh, I didn't think it was going to be like this, and that they're sort of, like, caught off guard by how aggressive it is? Because I'll say in the focus groups that we've been doing over the last few weeks, the number of people who say that, like, no, they're seeing ICE trucks in their communities, people aren't coming to school. Like, people are seeing that up close in their lived experience. So what is your reporting telling you about how people are feeling? It hit.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Well, it's so interesting because I think there was, like, CBS News polling and there was other places Americans supported mass deportation. That was Trump's policy. And they were like, whatever Democrats are doing. Biden Harris, that's not working for me. But it would be like 53% or 54%, you know, supported this. But you would see a lot of they didn't really think he was going to do, or they would say, yeah, he's going to get the criminals, but he's not going to get the person who's been here 20 years. Why would he do that? You know, this person's in the community. They're my neighbor, they go to church, their kid is in school with my kid. So some of that has been, I think, eye opening for folks and surprising on that level.

[Sarah Longwell]

So you also wrote about Trump's day one executive order to end birthright citizenship. And I wanted to finish up by talking about that, because we did hear, again, mixed feelings in the group around this. So let's listen.

[Focus Group Voter]

I'm also concerned about this law he's trying to put into place about taking people's, like, birthrights away. That's another thing that's very concerning. I'm Puerto Rican myself, but I'm concerned of, I know Trump doesn't even like Puerto Rico too much. So what if he decides to say, you know what? We're not even going to consider Puerto Rico part of the United States anymore. We're going to go after them now. And then he wants to, like, deport me and my family next, you know, But I also have friends, you know, that are not citizens. And I'm afraid what's going to happen to them. They're not criminals. Their kids are not criminals. So in one hand, like, I like the cleanup and what's going on makes me feel safer for myself and my family. But at the same time, it is very concerning the direction it's heading in. And if I can trust his word and what he said he's going to do. When I did go to the city, I can't tell you how every woman that I saw was pregnant because they came here with the idea of, let me get there, because once I'm pregnant, they're either not going to make me leave or my child has the birthright. Every single woman, with the exception of maybe five or six out of the hundreds I saw, had a belly. In those predicaments, in those situations where the people came here illegally, they knew what they were doing, and now they set up shop to get pregnant so that their child automatically is here and they're not going to separate them from their parent. You know, I'm not trying to be cruel. I'm being realistic. And I feel that there should be limitations to the birthright. I think they should be revoked. I think that they should be given at least, let's say, from 2018 and up, that's it, it's over. And then also with the DREAM act, it's sad to say this, but I think that that should stop because there's so many kids here that have to, you know, their parents and the kids have to figure out how to pay for it. And, you know, I think part of becoming a person and fighting is to learn how to, you know, pay for your schooling. And so I think that should stop as well.

[Sarah Longwell]

Just to clarify, just having listened to that person there at the end, I think that is the person saying we should get rid of dreamers. And she's trying to say that we should stop having people feel like there's an incentive. This is like the other person. It's the anchor baby right conversation. That part of the reason they've made so much headway on what is a straightforward constitutional issue is on this idea that people come here illegally specifically to have kids, and then they can't be deported. So people feel like they are gaming the system and that that is wrong. They have a reflexive opposition to that. But also in there, I did hear that woman, I mean, they were all pregnant. Everybody she passed, they were all pregnant, and they were all illegal pregnant women. I don't know. That feels like maybe she didn't check everyone's papers properly. I don't know. But I get very frustrated with this one, just because it's such a straightforward constitutional issue and none of these voters understood that it was constitutional. Like, that's not a thing that they knew about. They do kind of know, though, that it seems like a rule that if you come here and you have kids, the kids are citizens, and they think that's creating perverse incentives. So what's your reaction to how these people were talking about the idea of birthright citizenship?

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

It makes me think about what I've always known about covering immigration is that it's so dense and, like, wonky and policy focused and really difficult to understand. And, like, this is the power of the executive and this is the power of the bully pulpit. He cannot get rid of birthright citizenship. This is in the Constitution. But now he has people discussing that it should go away, which I think creates that space for him to do a bunch of other stuff. You know, birthright citizenship does seem like one of those that Democrats can fight back on. It's taking away citizenship from American US Citizen babies. And there does seem like there can be on some of these things. The reason I've mentioned also Guantanamo multiple times on this is because I found the focus groups on that to be fascinating, where Trump supporting Latino voters, a Latina who was very strongly from Texas saying, like, these people are taking our jobs. And she was like, sending people to Guantanamo Bay makes him seem like a Nazi and, like, sending people to camps. And, like, maybe he should chill out on that. Like, there's stuff here it feels like Democrats are just rolling over on so many aspects. Birthright is one of them. Guantanamo is another. You know, I think there's spaces here for Democrats to write back. And I'll just say one thing that stuck with me was when I was watching the New York presser on the ICE raid, I was kind of hoping, waiting as a New Yorker, like, having this affinity for New Jersey, I was hoping that a councilman or a politician would come that would remind me of, like, a Sopranos character. And then one did come up, and he was this, like, guy. He said he was a kid of Portuguese immigrants. And he said that every day his neighbor, he hears the creaky gate open because he goes to work at 4:45 in the morning. And the day after the ICE raid, he didn't hear the gate open. And he texted him and saying, hey, how are you doing? And at 7am the guy responded, I'm too scared to go to work. And he said, how is that good for our country? So I feel like there's some of these aspects and some of the parts of this that when those stories get out and if they're amplified, they can be a little bit of a counter to some of the stuff. But, you know, it's interesting.

[Sarah Longwell]

I just want to wrap up by noting something. It came up in the groups and I. You've written, it was just last week, I think in your newsletter you were talking about a lot of the folks who are getting caught up in these raids are Puerto Ricans who are on the US Mainland. And yeah, they're getting kind of like scooped up in these raids. And you heard somebody, you know, talk about this like, I'm Puerto Rican and I don't think he likes Puerto Ricans. And that was part of the whole Puerto Rico's garbage. Like that was at that Madison Square rally, like, I don't know, six lifetimes ago was like 12 years ago or something that he said that. And so walk us through just how Puerto Ricans specifically are getting caught up in these ICE raids.

[Adrian Carrasquillo]

Yeah, you know, there's been three high profile incidents. And as the president of the Hispanic Federation, which is one of the largest advocacy groups in the country, they have offices in 42 states, including Puerto Rico. They said if we heard about three incidents, there's others happening. One of them was in the ICE raid in Newark. He was a warehouse manager, He's a military veteran. And he got pulled in. And one of his co workers told me, this is obviously shocking because he's a US citizen. In Philadelphia, there's a restaurant called Boricua Restaurant, could not be more Puerto Rican. And the two owners, one of them is a former cop, he retired last year. And he's like, they came in here saying that we're undocumented. And like we had to check them saying, not just because you're Latino or speak Spanish, you're undocumented. He said the ICE agent was rude to him. You can tell the cop, the former cop was pissed about this by the way being treated that way. And he's like, it's an insult to my heritage, like I'm Puerto Rican. And then there was one that I found really fascinating in Milwaukee, and it was in Telemundo, Puerto Rico, a brother saying, my sister got caught up with her mother in law with a child and he said they were not detained ultimately, but they were driven to a facility. She showed ID and said, hey, look, I'm from Puerto Rico. And I basically said, I'm sorry. And because they were never detained, and there was these kind of confusion in these reports, and he said, like, we want to remain anonymous. We don't want our name out there. Like, this was stressful for us. And so ICE was like, this never happened because they were never detained. We would never detain this family. So there's these instances. And I was on a webinar with Latino justice, and they're like the Puerto Rican Legal Defense Fund, and they said that they're working on litigation on that issue, and so they don't want to talk about it. And literally on that webinar, they were doing know your rights training for Puerto Ricans who are US Citizens. Know your rights training is usually done by people who are undocumented here illegally. And they say if ICE comes to your door, you don't have to open the door. They have to show you a warrant. All this stuff. US Citizens are doing know your rights training in America right now. So that was pretty shocking to me, and I wanted to make sure I did a story on it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Got it. Adrian Carrasquillo, thank you so much for joining us. And everyone should subscribe to this guy's Huddled Masses newsletter. It's an awesome Bulwark product. And thanks to all of you. Felicity, listening to another episode of the focus group podcast, Remember to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, subscribe to The Bulwark on YouTube and become a Bulwark plus member at the bulwark.com. we'll see you next week.

[Focus Group Voter]

Bye.