← The Focus Group Podcast
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- [00:00]
Elon Musk
Get the Angel REEF Special at McDonald's. Now let's break it down. My favorite barbecue sauce, American cheese, crispy bacon, pickles, onions and a sesame seed bun of course. And don't forget the fries and a drink.
- [00:12]
Kara Swisher
Sound good?
- [00:12]
Elon Musk
Ba da ba ba ba.
- [00:14]
Sarah Longwell
I participate in restaurants for a limited time with Hellofresh.
- [00:16]
Elon Musk
You get farm fresh, pre proportioned ingredients and seasonal recipes delivered right to your doorstep. Skip trips to the grocery store and count on HelloFresh to make home cooking easy, fun and affordable. That's why it's America's number one meal kit.
- [00:30]
Kara Swisher
It's easy to find time to eat.
- [00:32]
Elon Musk
Well with 50 wholesome, hassle free meals to choose from each week delivered to your door. Their lineup of prep and bake meals.
- [00:38]
Kara Swisher
Come together with minimal mess and only.
- [00:41]
Elon Musk
Five minutes of prep. So your oven does most of the work. Not you. Get up to 10 free meals and a free high protein item for life@hellofresh.com hellofreshpodcast One item per box with active subscription free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. That's up to 10 free HelloFresh meals. Just go to hellofresh.com hellofreshpodcast HelloFresh, America's number one meal kit.
- [01:17]
Sarah Longwell
Hello everyone and welcome to the focus group podcast. Sarah I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark and this week we are catching up with the guy who's running our country and naturally I'm talking about Elon Musk. Like Trump, this guy was part of our cultural zeitgeist long before he came to Washington and I want to talk about how Biden to Trump voters see him. We've been really hanging with the Biden to Trump voters lately and how they see his department of government efficiency. My producer put that in scare quotes. It's otherwise known as Doge and you might be surprised by some of what you hear. I'm particularly excited for this show because my guest today probably knows Musk better than you know yourself. Kara Swisher, host of on with Kara Swisher and Pivot with Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway, which you can find on Apple Podcasts and YouTube. She is also the author of Burn Book. Kara, thanks for being here.
- [02:12]
Kara Swisher
Thank you for having me.
- [02:14]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, so before we talk specifically about Doge and jump into these voters, I got to say I keep somehow making the exact same mistake in my life, which is that because I'm a political nerd, I miss it when people who are parts of other parts of the culture, like become super Influential in politics. I never followed Elon Musk the same way I never followed Donald Trump. And so I didn't take Musk's influence on politics seriously almost until it was too late. But you've been on Musk for forever.
- [02:45]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [02:45]
Sarah Longwell
And I think that I didn't see and would like you to explain to me what was the thing that made Silicon Valley go MAGA like? It wasn't back in 2016, 2017, and then it got there. So how'd that happen?
- [02:59]
Kara Swisher
I'm not sure if it's so MAGA as certain people are and prominent people. Right. And then like sheep, they follow the leaders, essentially. So there's a whole swath of people who are not maga. They're quite tolerant. They're not very political in general. There was this myth that Silicon Valley was so liberal, largely because of their donations, but really non political was what I would call them. And there was nothing to see in the Republican Party they liked. And had they liked it, they would have switched to them. And that's why they did. There were a lot of things Republican Party, specifically Donald Trump was doing, including returning tax money from abroad, deregulation or no regulation or preventing regulation, leaving them alone. They really like to be left alone. And so they started to perceive a Democratic Party that was meddling with them too much or the potential to meddle with them too much. And then certain figures like Musk had sort of gotten obsessed with the cultural issues, which was, we want to say what we want, we want to do what we want. And so it was more not political, but the way they lived their lives and what they wanted to see. And then when they saw how cheap it was to buy these people, that sort of made sense to sort of do a takeover here.
- [04:05]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, right. Transactionalism does seem to dominate Trump, and that has changed politics in that way. Which actually brings me to another overarching question about Musk. A quarter of a billion dollars. What do you know about kind of that transaction specifically?
- [04:21]
Kara Swisher
I think it's just very typical of Musk. He doesn't do anything based on what would happen before. Right. He blows up rockets until he gets the right one, you know, and he'll do things that seem violative of the old process, because that's what he likes to do. But one of the things that's important to remember is that in breaking things, they can start anew and do it the way they want it. So they're constantly contrarian, often for the sake of being contrary, but often because it tends to work if you take a risk, and most people in politics are not risky in any way, and so they'll do it the old way. You know, when he came into Twitter, he just fired everybody. He didn't check if they were good or bad. He just said, let's just start from zero, because then they'll be in my camp and I get a greenfield, I get to do what I want. Do I have to pay off their severance? I don't know. Maybe I won't, maybe I won't pay the rent. Like, this is the kind of stuff he's willing to do that others aren't willing to do. So doing that was not a surprise to me. He didn't want to follow the rules as before because he wanted to blow things up. And that is in his nature. He also doesn't mind the shame that comes with it. A lot of people wouldn't do things because they would maybe get attacked. He enjoys it. He eats for breakfast. He likes the fighting, as you can see, because he picks a lot of fighting. To me, what he did there was completely normal for him, which is try something nobody's tried before. And if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. Like he said it in the Oval Office the other day, if I make a mistake, I make a mistake. Oh, well, you know, he doesn't care for the niceties of regular politics.
- [05:42]
Sarah Longwell
But do you think he asked Donald Trump for something in return? Like this Doge thing? Is this what they agreed on before Musk intervened?
- [05:50]
Kara Swisher
No, he's kind of like a jazz person. He's, this is, now I'm doing this, now I'm interested in this, now I think I'll do this. But he's already gotten his payment, his wealth has doubled. Even though, say, Tesla's car production is down, like the numbers are down, they're dropping in all areas around the world. The sales of Teslas, largely because there's not a real new Tesla out, except for that ugly looking cybertruck. But in general, he's already been paid, right? He's spent $250 million and he's 200 and some billion dollars richer. And then he gets to have influence over his contracts, he gets to have investigations go away by what he's doing and nobody's stopping him. And so why not, why not do this? You know, he's in the house and so he can do whatever he wants. Sort of like a toxic Cat in the Hat kind of thing.
- [06:35]
Sarah Longwell
Ah, yeah. I mean, Cat in the Hat was kind of toxic in his own way, right.
- [06:39]
Kara Swisher
He comes in, he's so violative, he breaks things, he cleans it up later.
- [06:42]
Sarah Longwell
That's true, he does clean it up.
- [06:44]
Kara Swisher
But it is a violation. He just decided to wreck someone's house. And so I think he finds it amusing. I think he's often bored and he's obviously gotten bored with Tesla because they haven't come up with any new products. Jobs kept innovating constantly with the products he had. He also wants to go to Mars and I think this is one of the ways he thinks he's going to do it faster.
- [07:03]
Sarah Longwell
I would also like him to go to Mars.
- [07:05]
Kara Swisher
You don't come back from Mars, Sarah, just so you know. You go and that's the end of it.
- [07:10]
Sarah Longwell
That's great. Well, that's great news. He should go to Mars.
- [07:12]
Kara Swisher
I think he should too. Super excited for him to reach his dream. That's something I think would be great.
- [07:17]
Sarah Longwell
We're going to have lots more musk conversations, but I want it to be kind of tinge with some of what we heard from voters and this again. So I'm just going to acknowledge this is like a blind spot for me. And it's just like when I started doing the focus groups with Trump, I was shocked by how many people had developed their opinions of him watching the Apprentice, a show I never watched, never cared about, was never interested in.
- [07:40]
Kara Swisher
I watched every episode. You did every episode to the end.
- [07:45]
Sarah Longwell
You know, I have long thought, and I should still probably do this, that I should go back and watch it so I can understand something critical. Like there's this piece I know is missing in my understanding of the way the public views Trump.
- [07:56]
Kara Swisher
Well, it was a time and place thing. It's that one. He was a poor person's idea of a rich person. That's one. It was all fake and people sort of knew it was fake. He was also very self deprecating and at the same time really obnoxious. He was quite appealing on that show.
- [08:09]
Sarah Longwell
Did you like him? Did you like him on that show?
- [08:11]
Kara Swisher
No, but I didn't dislike him. I thought he was funny. I thought he was very entertaining and incredibly watchable. And that's what was important about that show. It also was sort of took economics and capitalism down to sort of the base points. You know, you have a hot dog stand now, sell the most hot dogs. It's like that's not really what capitalism is, but it is. It's to many people's minds. And it also gave people the ideas if they had a Hope and a dream. A little like Shark Tank. Same thing. Like they can make it. If, if you could make it here, you could make it anywhere kind of thing. And so I did see the appeal and one of the arguments I got into with a lot of political reporters, I remember when he decided to run, they all laughed about it. I'm like, what are you talking about? He's really popular, he's funny and he's appealing and he doesn't look like anybody else. And so one of the truisms of America is they like the next new thing. Kind of like the Truman show, what's on next? And so I thought he had a big chance. I thought some of the things would stop him, but then they didn't. He barreled right through them the way Elon Musk does. He barrels right through them.
- [09:09]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. And I want to talk at some point about their relationship, but let's listen to some of the voters. So one of the things that's been clear is that voters don't think of Musk primarily as a political entity, the same way they didn't with Trump. Which by the way, this is something that I pick up in focus groups all the time. People, they don't like regular politicians. They like people who are outside of the system because they think the system sucks. So like I said, we've talked a fair amount to these Biden, to Trump voters. People who'd voted for Biden and many cases had been just sort lifelong Democrats, not like aggressively so, but they voted for Clinton and they voted for Biden. So let's listen to some of what Musk represented to them as this cultural figure.
- [09:46]
Elon Musk
Elon. I think him buying Twitter kind of broke the dam for information, if anything, that that caused probably my vote for Trump in this election. Just because, you know, you got to see all of the coercion between like the FBI and Twitter and the fact that people were trying to trick us. So then I think we all just started looking for tricks and started listening to the words that they're using. I don't really watch TV that much, but when I go to my parents house, my dad's watching the ABC Nightly News and things like that and I just hear the words that they're using and how anti Trump and pro Ukraine. And it just seems very odd that I don't remember the news ever being so opinionated when it comes to Elon Musk. He brought out Twitter and he uncovered the Twitter file. He revealing information about the Twitter, working with the government to suppress information about COVID and all these different things. The main difference that I changed kind of like my view and voted for Trump this most recent election was a lot of it to do with progression on AI and that new technology that's coming. It's inevitable. It's going to be in front of our eyes the next five, 10, 20 years. And so I think because of his progressive lens on, on that space, I think it works. I'm seeing that, you know, he's been backed by other kind of gurus in the space with Elon and others. I think it's a really exciting time to, to kind of be behind and curious. I've been an investor in a lot of Elon's companies over the last couple decades and gets done and he knows how to get done. I, I know he's got limited amounts of things that he can actually do through Doge, but it's exciting to see the potential and exciting to see where it may or may not go. I mean, he's such a, a leader and such a thought provoker around so many different topics, whether it be space or crypto or AI or electrification or you name it, that I think he's just guy to have on your side. I think he'll, for better or worse, whether people want it or not, he will make an impact. Even not having a cabinet position or a formal position with the government, I mean, he's, I think he's doing this on his own for no pay with his 18 other jobs. So I mean, who else in their right mind would do that? I, I firmly believe he, he wants the best for the US and the world. I think Musk represents this guru of tech, this person that understands that world. Me, I don't understand that world, but I know he does. And so I think just knowing that he's in discussions with our head honcho, the President, it just allows for opportunity for ideas to work or not to work. And I think for them to explore those things is going to be a journey in itself that'll excite a lot of people with tech. So a little bit about Musk is like, we know that he's an extremist. This guy wants to live in space somehow. And he's already like tapping into different texts and having neural technology plants in people's brains, just wire those things to communicate with computers. Who would think that at 2025 we'll be talking about something like this? Just 10 years ago, there's actually humans around with chips in their heads.
- [13:04]
Kara Swisher
Now. What's interesting about your focus group, I'm sorry to say is they're wrong about a lot of stuff, right? But it's in their head. Cause the information system is so confused. Like Twitter files didn't reveal anything nefarious, it was just government talking to them. But they put through the narrative that it was something worse. And so if you don't trust the government and you don't believe in the government, these broad messages that are quite reductive work really well. And because Elon has carefully sculpted his personality and his image in this certain shit stirring, rule breaking way, it's very appealing to people who don't like the system as it is, and therefore he can commit all kinds of heinous remarks and things like that. And that doesn't stick with him. What people remember is he's a shitster. Which, you know, Americans tend to love those kind of people.
- [13:52]
Sarah Longwell
They do. And actually there's a lot of sound to reflect that as we go. But what's interesting to me is that Musk himself, like people know him in a different context and like him for different things. Like he was kind of this weird and complex but very mainstream cultural figure who did interesting things with Tesla and SpaceX and he like hosted SNL. And so you wrote in your book that you were briefly optimistic his Twitter takeover would benefit the company. So what happened? And has. Has he changed or has our culture changed?
- [14:23]
Kara Swisher
Well, I think he's changed a lot. I think Covid was a real. Covid changed a lot of people, didn't it? It sort of made them radicalized in a lot of ways about the. And he particularly was already sort of anti regulatory, anti union, anti get in my way. And then he felt that the government tried to stop him from keeping factories open and everything else. And on some level he has a little bit of a point, but he takes it to the extreme because he does that with everything. Instead of just having a point and saying, how can we do this better next time? He's like, let's just get rid of him, right? Let's not have it happen by having them not exist. So he's very deft at doing that and I think he's very deft at creating a narrative around himself, the Iron man narrative, which he tried desperately to get into that movie because he understood the power of PR around him. Like, I created Tesla. Well, he didn't create Tesla, but he certainly was critical to it. SpaceX, I created this. You know what I mean? Again, it's sort of this Willy Wonka like character that he likes to have out there. And at the same time, he is a successful business person. Unlike Trump, he's a very successful business. Trump is a terrible business person and Musk isn't. And so therefore that rubs off on Trump that if the world's most successful and richest person, in part helped by Trump, is thinking Trump's okay, that's great. When in reality he just wants to use Trump as a vehicle to get the things he wants. And you know why? Cuz he's a really good business person. Right. And Trump is sort of the patsy in this whole situation. You know, if you don't see the sucker in the room, it's you kind of thing.
- [15:50]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. Although the thing that Trump did get out of it, and this comes up in a lot of the groups, and you heard a guy say this, I didn't really vote for Trump. I voted for Elon and I voted for rfk. I voted for Tulsi. There's this very specific kind of voter and it was not the kind of voter that I was focused on at all.
- [16:05]
Kara Swisher
They liked in part what they heard from rfk. And by the way, I think he's a crazy person, like really do. But within the crazy as same thing with Elon, who is not crazy like rfk. Let me be clear about that. Within it, there are moments of clarity. We need better food for our kids. Who doesn't want that? Right. As a parent, I lean into that. Right. Oh yeah, there's too many processed foods. Right. Shouldn't we wonder about our environment and its impact on us? Yes, we should. Right. But then it comes along with a whole passel of crazy. Right? Vaccine misinformation, you know, all kinds of manner of how black people are versus white people. You know, I mean, then it moves into Nutville, essentially. And so often in conspiracy, there is a kernel of truth to everything. There has to be because people have to nod their head and say, yeah, my kids food sucks. You know, so that's rfk With Elon, the same thing is government isn't working for you. That is the basic message and we need to get rid of it. And there's fraud and waste everywhere. So it plays into people's feelings. Like, yeah, I bet there is. I bet there is. Even though there's fraud and waste in all kinds of companies, including those run by Elon Musk. Right. But in this case it's I'm the taxpayer, I'm paying for it. Why am I paying for this? And I think he's very adept at taking advantage of those small truths that people believe and then proposing a solution to that is anti Democratic. Because the only way to fix this is to break it. We can't consult Congress anymore because they didn't fix it. Which is true, right? That is true. They've had millions of chances to fix it and they never do. The only way to fix this is to break it and get rid of it. And let me make one more point. He's picking certain agencies that don't matter to people. I think the USAID does great work. It probably has some problems like every single agency, but nobody cares about foreign policy. So he's picking agencies people aren't as attached to or think work well. Right. Or don't know anything about. And so that's why it's effective, because he's going after things that are low hanging fruit, I would say for him.
- [18:05]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. I mean the foreign aid is such an easy place to start because the soft power that you yield from it is not a thing Americans feel. And they just say, well, I want that money coming over here. Yeah, they'll feel it eventually.
- [18:16]
Kara Swisher
Yeah.
- [18:17]
Sarah Longwell
Okay. So in the months between the election and Trump's inauguration, Musk was already more and more becoming a figure that we were like, okay, he's going to be involved in Trump stuff. And we got mixed reviews from these Biden to Trump voters about his potential Trump administration role. Let's listen.
- [18:35]
Kara Swisher
Elon and Trump, they're buddy buddies right now, but what would happen if they fell out? I just wonder how that would affect our country and things. How did he get so much wealth?
- [18:51]
Elon Musk
The government programs to help people buy electric cars has made him a fortune and he needs somebody in office that's going to continue to give him the subsidies and so forth that he needs space and everything so he can be very loyal to make sure that he keeps his, his. I'm a little nervous just because like, of the increase from like Elon and like the things that I know that are, is to come in the next few years, like definitely with like the rise in AI and the robotics and stuff and you know, having these robots in people's houses, all these kind of weird things that I just don't feel really comfortable with. And then it's like, I don't know, like I've just been seeing a lot of things recently like especially job postings where you're like training these robots. And I'm like, that's not, that's not what we want because like Elon is very radically, he is gonna do what he wants to do because he has a Lot of money and a lot of power at this point in time. So a lot of people listen to him and they trust anything he says. So it's like him being tightly aligned with Trump is going to. I would, I would hope it wouldn't create any negative effects, but you really never know.
- [20:09]
Kara Swisher
A little weird, but I feel like if we think about what's the future AI, you know, ev, all of that, that's something where, yes, the government can come in and look at the documents, but somebody that is like pushing along farther than anybody else right now, maybe he shouldn't be as high up as he is, but I think he should be involved in that aspect.
- [20:30]
Elon Musk
I think the fact that Elon and Vivek are doing it without a salary is pretty impressive. So you can't really judge what they're doing. You know, I hope everything stays honest. I hope everything goes well. I would love to help them out with that because, you know, just trying to figure out stuff is good. Elon, the guy is efficient. So I mean, who's really more efficient than him? He's running with like, or companies, huge companies. I think there does need to be more efficiency. So I mean, I agree with at least the, the concept and the idea. Whether it's the right people or not, we'll find out. I'm definitely excited about the government being more efficient because there's no way that we can compete in America without efficiency. I mean, it takes nine months to build a single family house in America. It shouldn't take that long at all. I read once in China they, they built like a 13 story building and in a matter of a week and we can't even build a single family home and in a month, I mean, if we're talking about efficiency, who is more qualified than Elon Musk to make something efficient? I don't think money is a bad thing, but it's too much money involved. In regards to Elon Musk, I do like some of his initiatives, but I feel like he's in that position because he's the richest man and not necessarily because he's some kind of great thinker. I do understand that the two kind of coincide, but I don't really see him as a leader in that regard. He makes some questionable decisions too in regards to how he treats employees, things of that nature. So I think it's just too much money involved in it. The only person I thought was kind.
- [22:16]
Kara Swisher
Of weird on his cabinet was Elon Musk.
- [22:19]
Elon Musk
I don't know. I knew him as making Teslas and cars. And then the more I've heard about him, I don't want to say the worse it got.
- [22:26]
Kara Swisher
But it just, I don't know, I.
- [22:28]
Sarah Longwell
Don'T think it's government worthy.
- [22:29]
Kara Swisher
I wouldn't trust him. I just don't see what he gets out of it. Like, why is he involved? Like, and I understand, like, wanting to be a part of the efficiency agency and help out the schools and whatnot, but why? What are you benefiting out of that? And that's not like a mentality of, oh, he's a rich man, he has to be getting something. But it kind of is. Like, I just don't understand why.
- [22:53]
Sarah Longwell
When you listen to these voters, Kara, and they have this, like, you pointed out before, like, they've got a sheen of Elon Musk, but you can hear some of them be like, he's rich. What's in it for him? And other people being like, no, he's a real patriot. And other people being like, I don't know if I trust him. What's he get out of it when obviously he gets things out of it, like, what do you make of the way people perceive him?
- [23:14]
Kara Swisher
I think they have a sense that something's amiss. I think they're like, why does this rich guy get to have this job? Is he that smart? At the same time, he is accomplished. And again, he spent a lot of time burnishing his reputation, that regard. Right. And he lives that way, lives large. And he's playing into, again, movie tropes like Iron man and stuff like that. But the trope that people are also picking up on is evil billionaire. Right. Evil villain Thanos. Right. And I think that's a real opening for Democrats is he's Thanos, not Iron Man.
- [23:44]
Sarah Longwell
I do have that written down here and circled as vulnerability.
- [23:47]
Kara Swisher
It is a vulnerability because people always suspect rich people buying their way into Access. Listen, they know this about Donald Trump and they've accepted it. He's a coin op president. They get that. That is not a message that needs to be drilled into anybody. Everyone gets that. Donald Trump's always on the make, Right. Either you like these on the make or you don't like it. Right. But pretty much like, we're way past that. But with Musk, there's an opportunity, I think, to say, well, how did this guy get so rich? There's several people expressed it. They wanted to say, well, he's rich and that's good, but did he get rich because of what he's doing? And I think that's A really interesting feeling of distrust of wealthy people. Right. Handing gloves to the idolatry of innovators. And the idolatry of rich people is the distrust of rich people. Right. They're not in it for me, they're in it for themselves. That's what people were expressing there. And I think that's really actually very smart. Again, some of whom didn't have excellent information. Right. You know, he did this, he did this. I'm like, he didn't do that, he didn't do that. But that's okay. He is definitely a special business person compared to other business people. Right. If you had to stack rank him, he'd be near the top. But they started to see things. Well, did he take advantage of people? And that guy knew about what happened in the factory. Right. The guy was wondering who he stepped over to get to where he is. And so that was interesting. They have an intuitive sense that maybe he could be useful, but maybe I also shouldn't trust him.
- [25:09]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. The other thing that I think is in there that maybe you could speak to is the sort of tech anxiety. Like, I think people have missed a lot about what it was about. Biden, like, the age thing was also a stand in for, like, everything feels inert, nothing's happening. And like with Trump, they're like, but Trump's the same age. And I'm like, but he's surrounding himself with people.
- [25:30]
Kara Swisher
He is.
- [25:30]
Sarah Longwell
People think, oh, this person understands this new world we're entering into. And they're. They're unsure about it. They don't know much about it. So they like the idea that these people who do know that world are surrounding Donald Trump.
- [25:42]
Kara Swisher
Right? That's correct. And it's smart enough to know who to hang out with. I mean, I thought that was a huge missed opportunity for the Biden administration to. To do such an arm's length with Musk. Right. And it had to do with unions initially. But he was obviously enthusiastic and interested. And so in their effort to make change, they decided to mock him, which I think was always. I called several Biden people telling them to stop and they wouldn't. Right. You know, that it was much more complex than they were letting on. And, you know, the only person who really did get that was Kamala Harris, actually. I'm like, here's the good thing, here's the bad thing. And she goes, what would be useful? But she didn't articulate it enough either. Right. Just tech bad kind of thing. And I think I say tech bad a lot, but I also Say there's people and things that are important to our country. And I think that's what Trump did. Well, he saw an opportunity and he took it. And he was willing to put aside past differences with Musk because they had a lot of beefs before that. So he's always willing to put aside past differences with people. And I think that's a very powerful talent he's got. Like, he doesn't care. He fought with you yesterday, he's fine having dinner with you today.
- [26:49]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. As long as you're being nice to him now.
- [26:52]
Kara Swisher
Nice. Or giving into his vanity or giving him something he needs. And in this case with Elon Musk, he needs a heat shield. He's a shiny thing that Democrats are chasing. Right. And they're not focused on Trump, they're focused on Elon Musk. And so that's a really important thing for Donald Trump to be able to do is saying, oh, this guy. I don't know what this guy's gonna do. He's crazy junkyard dog. He might bite anyone at any point. Oh, no. And so when you create the amount of fear or loathing around, that becomes the story versus what exactly the Democrats are for, not what they're against. Right. And as much as I'm like, this is what you should be against, that's not really my job. My job is to tell you this person is dangerous, et cetera. What I do think you need to do is say what you're for. And I think that's. Unfortunately, the problem is focusing on Musk is actually not necessarily a good thing for the Democrats.
- [27:44]
Sarah Longwell
All right, focus group listeners, I have a podcast wreck for you. In wild times like these, do you ever just want to break the rules? You know, Elon likes to break the rules. Well, that's exactly what friend of the Bulwark Glenn Galich gets into on his show Break Bake Rules. Here, Glenn and guest dig into the self imposed rules that hold us back, particularly in philanthropy, to uncover which rules we should commit to breaking together for a better society. You'll even hear from me and other political insiders in politics, government, philanthropy, media, and more who are refusing to live by fake rules. Because a lot of these rules are fake. I don't know where they came from. If you've ever wondered why we live by certain rules or dreamed of what becomes possible when we do things differently, tune in to break fake rules, but do it in a cool way, not like in an Elon way. New episodes drop monthly. Wherever you get your podcasts. Well, you're 100% right about the heat shield thing. So I've talked about this quite a bit before. In the before times, there was a lot of scenario planning exercises going on in some of these groups, and I was playing Trump in one of them. To me, it was very simple what you did. It was like, on one hand, I had my team write me, like, 200 insane tweets, and I was like, okay, we're going to tweet insane things over here, and everyone's going to chase that, and over here we're going to dismantle the government.
- [29:05]
Kara Swisher
Right.
- [29:05]
Sarah Longwell
The thing that I miss was that Trump was like, actually, I am going to sit over here and tweet insane things, and I'm going to let Elon Musk dismantle the government. And when his poll numbers go down, well, I'm fine. So I think people have to update their assessment of what Trump is doing, because I think for a lot of people, they think you can say, oh, President Elon. Or they can talk about that Oval Office meeting where Trump is, like, weirdly sitting in the corner looking annoyed at the kid while Elon's holding a press conference. And they think, well, Trump's never going to tolerate that. But Trump seems to be tolerating it just fine. So what do you make of their relationship?
- [29:41]
Kara Swisher
It was tense before, but I think he's getting a lot out of it. You know, he's much more willing to. I don't say he's mellowed, but I think he's much more willing to see the longer term benefits of something. And there's no negative with Musk on his side at this point. Right. And so why not let him be the one making trouble and every now and then say, you know, we'll control him if we need to. I'm really in charge. Like, you notice he says that periodically. The only one who's really clocking it, of course, is Steve Bannon, who's like, I'm the true believer. How the fuck did I get outside this fence? Although, honestly, if Steve Bannon needed to ally with Musk, he'd do it in a New York minute, Right? He'd call him evil one day, he'll be his best friend the next. I think they're gonna be friends. Honestly, I do. I think that's the next thing you're gonna see is the two of them coming to terms. Right? But he does clock what's happening here because he's a true believer. And that's offensive to him that this guy could come in and just take over in ways that he kind of is jealous of.
- [30:38]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I mean, I do think that we all sort of assumed at some point there would be the Laura Loomer Bannon super maga types that don't like immigration, don't like the H1B visas, and all of stuff that, like, there would be a tension there that would boil over. But wait, why do you think that eventually they'll find themselves coming together?
- [30:56]
Kara Swisher
I don't know. Just because I think they're both opportunists. Like, why not? Like, both of them could move into fake warfare and then kiss and make up at the end. They're all like that. And that's the one thing the Democrats don't seem to be able to do. When they don't like someone, they actually don't like them. And I don't want to talk to you anymore. And with the Republicans is like, I hate you, but we can do a deal. That kind of thing. And I think Musk is very much like that. He's fallen in and out of relationships. He's very comfortable with distress. He's very comfortable with fighting. Everyone's like, how can he keep doing this? It feeds him. It feeds something within him, and so he likes the fight. Same thing with Trump. It feeds them. Same thing with Bannon, by the way, the original inventor of Flood the Zone, although he's not. That was the Nazis. So I think the issue is what we have to be watching is what they're doing specifically and why they're picking what they're picking. Right. Watching them do things like USAID or areas that people don't have an affiliation for. They're being very careful about how they do this, and they're not attacking anything that regular people like, that's for sure. Now, the IRS is an interesting situation and an opportunity for Democrats because instead of billionaires getting his hands on all your information, he's gonna take advantage of. That's a good message, and he's gonna help other companies. Is, why is the government giving your information to people? Like, that's a really good message. And I think it's very resonant with Americans. It's like, what is the government doing in my business? You know, it's time for the Democrats to start to create some conspiracy theories themselves. Right?
- [32:23]
Elon Musk
Yeah.
- [32:23]
Sarah Longwell
Well, it doesn't even have to be a theory. It just can be like, hey, this is happening. And it's, hey, they got your information.
- [32:28]
Kara Swisher
Who knows what they can do with your information? I mean, like. And it's Actually a true feeling. You should feel worried about stuff like that.
- [32:36]
Sarah Longwell
Yes.
- [32:37]
Kara Swisher
Now that they're in there, it's interesting because as much as people don't like the irs, what they don't like even more is people messing about in their shit.
- [32:44]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [32:45]
Kara Swisher
So I'd be curious to hear a focus group about that. What does he want the information for? That's what's really happening. He wants it for his AI efforts himself because he's been so far behind the others.
- [32:56]
Sarah Longwell
Oh, that's interesting. Well, say more about that real quick.
- [32:59]
Kara Swisher
Well, two things. The government's information is notoriously not digitally fast forward. That needs to be reformed. When he took over the digital service, I was like, oh, I see. They're already embedded in every. In everything. Right. He doesn't have to grow it from scratch. So that was really smart. And they did that. And they had a certain amount of staff there. There's been a comfort with them in there already. This is from the Obama administration, I think might have been slightly before. So that was one thing. The other thing is, you know, we're here to root out government waste. That's a really good thing. What Elon is after, if I had to guess, is one of the big debates going on right now in AI is we're running out of data. All the LLMs have sucked in all the data. Now they need more to have an advantage. And so all the LLMs have become a commodity because they're all parsing the same information. Right. They've scraped everything they can. Government is the biggest trove of information on the planet. US Government is, at this point would be my guess, or China would be. The only other country that has it all consolidated is China, because it's a surveillance economy and it's a communist country. And so they want great control over their citizens. Our government data is siloed all over the place. What if someone could bring it all together and then load it into an LLM? That would make their LLM much better over time. So that's, to me, what they're looking for is this enormous amount of data that's never been brought together. Sometimes for a very good reason. We don't want all our government agencies to know everything about everything else. So you can create an enormous database of everybody and then combine it with public databases and commercial databases. It becomes a very powerful weapon.
- [34:36]
Sarah Longwell
Well, maybe this is the stupidest and most naive question on the planet, but is that legal? He. Can he just do that?
- [34:41]
Kara Swisher
Well, Trump is letting him. I mean, he shouldn't be Able to. But yes. It's not legal. It's just. He's doing it. He's just doing it. Like, I don't know where the data's gonna go, but my guess would be not OpenAI. Right? It's not gonna go to OpenAI.
- [34:54]
Sarah Longwell
Well, yeah, I mean, I understand him getting in the data and, like, poking around, I guess. I hadn't thought about him, though, exporting it into another system.
- [35:01]
Kara Swisher
Well, it can't be helpful unless it's exported into these things and analyzed. That's why they keep talking around the edges. Oh, we're going to put AI on everything to sort out the fraud. But what it really does is it puts AI on everything to give you insights, including about his competitors. I mean, why do you rob banks? Because that's where the money is. Why do you rob government agencies? Because that's where the data is. I don't know. I just keep thinking about the data sitting in there.
- [35:24]
Sarah Longwell
I mean, I hear a scary thing every day. That's the scariest thing I've heard today. Thanks.
- [35:28]
Kara Swisher
It makes sense. I always am. Like, what's he actually up to? Does he just want to meet girls to have more kids? Probably not, but he's doing it because he wants the data. Like, of course he wants the data. Anyone who's creating an AI company wants the data. And then the question is, who has first access to it and what advantage does it give them? And it gives you an enormous amount. But what's frightening to me is many years ago I wrote about, there was an idea of creating a government information department. Department of Information. Never going to happen in this country because we have such a fear of government control of our minds. Right. Why would we let one agency control information? It's always been all over the place. But, you know, the Department of Agriculture has all kinds of cool information. They don't even know what they have over here. The Labor Department. Are you kidding? Amazing information. And then that also gives you the ability to manipulate that information to your advantage.
- [36:22]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, Usually the voters are the scariest part, but right now, you're the scariest part.
- [36:26]
Kara Swisher
Two things I think he wants. One is he wants to go to Mars and he needs the government to pay for it. He's not rich enough to do it. He can't do it without the US government backing this. Not at all. He can't do it on his own. And then two, he wants the data so his AI will be bigger than other AIs. That makes sense.
- [36:44]
Sarah Longwell
It does make sense.
- [36:45]
Kara Swisher
He'll poo Poo it. But that's exactly what he wants.
- [36:49]
Sarah Longwell
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- [38:31]
Elon Musk
If you've got all these business people and they've got successful businesses that they've started in the US Why can't these successful business people help make America successful again? I would say I'm for him, I guess, having a longer lease in a sense, just because I feel like he has certain thoughts and certain ideas that the government spending people are not looking at it. There was a lot of money going towards, I think things that are kind of necessary. Billions of dollars are just going towards things that just don't even make sense. He's a man of great brilliance and his expertise and he has ways of finding out excess spending. Also he has the technology to go in and do checks that haven't been done before. He's bringing in a new, I guess you would say technology side of, okay, let's go checks and balance and see exactly how much are we going to take away from the deficit, how much are we going to be cutting the taxes? Why should we be cutting it? Or these employees, irreplaceable. Why are they in this position for 10, 20 years making x amount of dollars and not contributing to the whole task?
- [39:36]
Kara Swisher
He's brilliant. He comes across as, he reminds me of the world's oldest 10 year old in that he trolls the media, which I think is hilarious. What he's been doing lately with changing his handle on X was the funniest thing I think I've heard in a long time. To hear CNN talk about Harry Balls was really, really great. That aside, you know, what he did with Twitter and how it, it seems almost heartless.
- [40:09]
Sarah Longwell
You know, it's just, everybody gets fired.
- [40:10]
Kara Swisher
It's like, oh, my gosh, he's the worst boss ever. This is horrible. How terrible. But you know what? He's, he's made that company profitable. He found out where there was too much waste, cut it down. And I think Trump has had the.
- [40:24]
Sarah Longwell
Ability to see people where their strengths are.
- [40:28]
Kara Swisher
And I think he admires that in Elon Musk, that he can, he can laser focus. He doesn't care what people think about him. He looks at it from a very analytical point of view. I know that Elon Musk himself has said that he's got Asperger's. So that could very well be why he approaches things on a level of.
- [40:50]
Sarah Longwell
Just get rid of it.
- [40:51]
Kara Swisher
And he doesn't think about how other people might be affected by it.
- [40:54]
Sarah Longwell
I think that the country right now.
- [40:56]
Kara Swisher
Is in a place where it's so bloated that this kind of stuff needs to happen. And I think that he's not getting rid of everything. He's cutting back or at least finding.
- [41:07]
Sarah Longwell
Out where things can be cut back.
- [41:09]
Kara Swisher
Where there's a lot of excessive spending and he doesn't care that people are getting upset about it. And I think that's a very good.
- [41:16]
Sarah Longwell
Thing and it will be a good.
- [41:17]
Kara Swisher
Thing for us in the long term.
- [41:20]
Sarah Longwell
So those were our people who are happy.
- [41:22]
Kara Swisher
That last person, frequently wrong, but never in doubt. Wow. Try to insult your focus groups, but she doesn't know what she's talking about. That company was profitable, barely profitable. It lost money and he added his own money to it. 200 million one year. It is starting to get back to cash flow positive. But it is not a great business, my friend. Sorry, it's just not. It never has been. And he didn't make it any better. He's using it as an influence platform for himself, which is very smart. And that's where he's made money, is increasing his wealth. But as a business, Twitter is. Look, if you want to look at a really great digital business, look at Facebook. But please don't tell me Twitter is a great business. It just isn't. It just is not. It's a great influence platform.
- [42:03]
Sarah Longwell
Well, I've got some news for you about American voters.
- [42:07]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. I was like, here's what's really happening. I'm like, no, no. I don't know how you do this. I couldn't. I'd be so rude to people that probably think I'm an arrogant prick. But it's like, no, that's inaccurate. But they are touching on this idea is, I don't trust government. This guy will run through walls. Right. Same thing I was saying earlier. And they like that. They like it. Even if you shouldn't be running through that wall.
- [42:27]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. I mean, one of the reasons that I can do it is that I think that there's only so much you can expect from people who are not experts in these things. The way that they think about Musk is the same way they think about Trump. Trump was a carefully curated businessman. They think that's what a businessman looks like. I sat there being like, twitter's not profitable. There's lots of things that I don't know about this world that even the voters oftentimes feel like they know more about Musk than I do.
- [42:49]
Kara Swisher
What they know about is they want this to change. And this guy.
- [42:52]
Sarah Longwell
That's right.
- [42:53]
Kara Swisher
Wrecking Ball.
- [42:53]
Sarah Longwell
That's right.
- [42:54]
Kara Swisher
Right. He's Miley Cyrus on the wr and he's just going to wreck it. And that is a very American sensibility, is, let's wreck it. I have to work hard, I get fired, you know, that kind of thing. And so this guy looks good. He'll take care of it. And I think that is an asset for him for sure.
- [43:11]
Sarah Longwell
But not everybody feels that way. And again, going back to where I think some of the vulnerabilities are for Musk, I want to leave this conversation. I have a couple more questions for you before we end, but I want to just at least get through the negative feedback we got on Elon and Doge from these Biden to Trump voters since inauguration. And there was a lot of it. So let's listen.
- [43:34]
Kara Swisher
Everybody needs to know who is at the top of the food chain. I don't feel that there should be Anybody that is holding the equal amount of power. I think when there's too many hands in the cookie jar, that's when things start to get messy. And then it's like billionaire on top of billionaire on top of billionaire. Like there should be like one reigning individual and then you're gonna have your side, your cabinets, you know, everybody else that's working with you. I do love the fact that he's tying AI and it and all that kind of stuff into figuring this kind of stuff out. It is kind of like a personal interest thing. Like, you know, how much money is he going to be set to make off of this when he's already projected to be, you know, a trillionaire.
- [44:11]
Sarah Longwell
So it's like, that's kind of why.
- [44:13]
Kara Swisher
I'm like, he's smart. I love the things that he does do.
- [44:17]
Sarah Longwell
I love that he knows and wants.
- [44:19]
Kara Swisher
To do so much with space exploration and kind of figuring that kind of stuff out. But I'm still kind of like on.
- [44:26]
Sarah Longwell
The fence of whether or not is.
- [44:27]
Kara Swisher
He trying to make more money.
- [44:28]
Elon Musk
The display of power of some like just being there and like doing with the salute and everything just feel disgraceful. You know, it was like, it was like, I'm the president now. You know, we have rich people before, but we never had this kind of rich people. You know, they were already rich. And then Covid hit and they made like three times as much money. And now they have so much money that they could probably buy like all of like South America. They could buy like half of Europe. And so the amount of power they have, it's, it's uncontrollable. And will Trump have the, you know, will he be able to say no when they request something out of him? I'm hoping that he could reign them in, but I feel that the actual presidents are not Trump. It's a double edged sword. I like the fact that he, he's coming up with these things to eliminate waste, which there's a ton of governments known for that. But also on the other side, he's very powerful in the sense that he can. Basically he could use his position for his interest in his money. And it's like, I don't, I don't think you can stand Donald Trump. I think he's using him as a stepping stone. Must know data is the key to the game. So that's why he bought into the game. The half a bill bought him in the door. Now you give him this government agency. The technology side of is great, but I like to say or the brother from North Carolina said, now my data is in other people's hands that could profit from it. Is he good for him? Are good for the country? Well, when you have that type of mentality, the single mindedness of him must is all about must and making his money. So we're at the mercy of the court at this time. I don't trust Elon Musk. I think he is somebody who likes to manipulate the stock market is not somebody I've not trust. And I've had this debate with my brother because my brother loves Elon Musk. He's a brilliant man. I'm not going to take that away from him. He's innovative and all that stuff, but somebody who likes to play. I just read today that they froze him away from the financial part. Listen, you have to give Trump the benefit of the doubt and let him do what he does, right? But you also have to look who's on the chessboard. You have to, because you're human and you know, and you have to be careful and say assess this right? If you look at Elon, I look at his contracts with the dog, you look at his companies, you look at Tesla, you look at Starlink, you look at all these things, you see so much opportunity. Someone who is ambitious enough to get to 391 billion, believe me, he wants.
- [47:11]
Sarah Longwell
To make a trillion, so he wants.
- [47:12]
Elon Musk
To make 10 trillion because it's, it's a cycle. He just keeps on pushing that, you know, financial dopamine. So yeah, I think it's more aligned to his, his interest even though it's not right now. But in like three years time it's going to be all clear. It's all about him. It's all about him.
- [47:29]
Kara Swisher
I think when you have two egomaniacs.
- [47:32]
Elon Musk
Playing in the same sandbox, there's going to be issues to give you a prediction he's going to last a year or this is uncharted territory in a way. Basically, you know, he has so much power and so much influence in the government without having appointed position.
- [47:48]
Sarah Longwell
So Kara, what's going to happen?
- [47:50]
Kara Swisher
Rich people are great. Rich people are in it for themselves. Those are two very true things both at the same time. And so I do think that the thing the Democrats should be focused on is what's this rich guy doing in your bank account? Is he really trying to help you or is he trying to help himself? Like that's really a good message because it works. It resonates because there is a bit of like, did we elect him? Does he Have a little too much power. Didn't we elect Congress? I think the problem is that I've always said that Elon Musk thinks in terms of video games, and he's ready player one, and the rest of us are NPCs, including Donald Trump, which is the non player characters. He is the main character in everything. And so that could work to his negativity. That said, he's so rich, he can buy his way out of these things. And I think the idea of a really nefarious rich person goes back a long way for people. And it's a very resonant feeling is he's not the working man, is he? So who's he in it for? Him. Right. And you could hear that through people. Right. You know, even if he's a successful businessman, what does he want? What's his game? And I think that's interesting. I don't think they're going to fight. I did initially, but now I don't because I think Elon realizes he's in a great position to get everything he wants.
- [49:02]
Sarah Longwell
They're not going to fight. Now, I generally agree with you, but let's push on that for just a second because it goes back to the idea of Elon as a heat shield. And this is why I love doing this podcast, because talking to somebody like you, with your expertise, plus adding it to the voters, you get a picture of what you could do about Elon Musk. His ego is fragile in many ways, and the voters are suspicious of his wealth. They give him credit for it. Many of them think he's brilliant, but lots of other people are like, no, I think there's, like, game in here for you. So you can see a path towards a strategy of driving Elon Musk's negatives quite high. And what does Trump do at that point? Like, if Elon becomes an anchor or an albatross of some kind, at some point, does Trump cut him loose, or does Elon always have too much money and too much power?
- [49:50]
Kara Swisher
He's a cudgel against people in his own party, really. He's a control mechanism on them. If they cross him, Trump's gonna bring out Frankenstein over here. He's gonna come over here and run through your district and, like, kill you. This guy isn't just a little rich, he's the richest, and he's doubled his wealth in a very short amount of time. And he knows technology like it's the whole frigging package. And so I think he's a very useful monster for Trump. Until he does something to Trump. But he's not gonna. He's not gonna bite this hand. He's just not, I suspect, behind the scenes, he doesn't think much of Trump. I mean, I've heard him say it years ago, like, oh, I can manipulate him, essentially, even though he's an alpha character, if he maintains a sort of beta personality around him, just around him, nowhere else, he'll be fine. Musk is so much smarter than Trump, it's crazy. But Trump does have an intuitive sense of survival. He's like a cockroach. Right. And so I'm trying to envision what Musk could do that would push him out. Right. What could he do?
- [50:50]
Sarah Longwell
But so, you know that woman back there, she said something that actually sounded to me like you. She called him the world's oldest 10 year old. And the question is, and I ask this sincerely, either the government does work, that really matters, and Elon taking a sledgehammer to it is going to cause negative, negative personal consequences that will create a backlash from people, or our government doesn't do that much and Musk can shut it down and it won't have many negative personal consequences. So it's something we think, actually it does a bunch of things that matter. And the sledgehammer approaches was maybe okay for Twitter, not so good for the entire federal government. And there is a backlash. Like people get in the streets.
- [51:30]
Kara Swisher
Yes, yes. And of course, the Republicans are racing to get exemptions for themselves, Right. So they don't get infected by this. Which of course means they're starting to see it. I do think there is a scenario by which he goes too far, right. And he cuts too much, but he doesn't care because he wants to go to Mars. Like he doesn't care about this planet. Like, that's the thing. Someone willing to do anything and has the means, the unfettered means to do so. It's a very dangerous person because it depends on what they feel like doing and what they feel like saying. I think one of the things that you have to keep in mind is that these people believe in this unified executive theory, that the executive knows best, and the CEO, the founder mode, the idea that you go hardcore, listen to all their words, all their phrases break. And if you read, I urge you to read Peter Thiel's books, it's all about breaking it and starting from scratch in a new way where these guys know best. If some eggs are broken, well, they're broken. That's the way it goes, right? That's how you get to greatness. That's how they operate in their businesses and that's what they're doing here. And they have some cause for saying the government's inefficient. The question is, does the government need to be completely efficient or does it have other duties to its citizens that have nothing to do with shareholder value or money making or pure efficiency? You know, sloppiness is okay when it comes to saving people's lives or protecting people from military incursions or anything else. There's no efficient way to do government in the history of government. And so they think they have the answers is laughable.
- [53:06]
Sarah Longwell
You mean sloppiness in the sense that if you spend too much in the service of saving people's lives, that that's okay?
- [53:12]
Elon Musk
Yeah.
- [53:13]
Kara Swisher
Where are the repercussions? Where's the butterfly effect here? Like if we cut condoms to Mozambique, Gaza, does an AIDS thing happen there that then goes around the world? I don't know. We put our power all over the world. We place bets everywhere. These guys have the ability to just place bets that benefits them and cut things that don't matter. And that's why they've been able to run roughshod over our society, because the consequences don't matter to them, nor do they care for consequences when it comes to the federal government. Consequences matter. Right? Enough planes will fall out of the sky, you can't go to the park, you can't get your basic services, and then you're in a free for all. And I don't think Americans like a free for all. And I'll end on one thing, is that the Democrats have to show what they want to do with this country in a fresh forward thinking way that embraces changes with AI and is not necessarily hostile to them, but then says we're going to also protect you while we're doing it. And so I think what really lies at who has the better ideas, right? And right now it seems like Donald Trump and Elon Musk have better ideas and their idea is let's break it. There's a better idea than that. Right. But what is it? And that's what the Democrats have to start saying. Instead of saying why they're wrong, you have to say why you're right and what you want to do is right. And so that's what's missing here. The Democrats aren't the topic. Elon Musk and Donald Trump are. And that's how they like it.
- [54:40]
Sarah Longwell
That is how they like it.
- [54:42]
Kara Swisher
Go on any social media feed. It's all about the two of them. We're not talking about what Democrats are or are not. And so who's gonna break through among the Democratic Party that says they're the party of the future? They have to get their own future people on their side. And unfortunately, Donald Trump, I don't think he is the only one, but he looks like the only one for sure.
- [55:02]
Sarah Longwell
I'm watching Shark Tank this time.
- [55:04]
Kara Swisher
Mark is amazing. I've tried to urge him to be president. Listen, he has a lot of detractors. I hear you all. He was not perfect running his teams. Everybody's got some hair on them. I'm sorry to tell you. I'm sorry to give you that piece of. The problem with the left is like, they expect perfection. Sure, whatever. And they're very purity testing all the time. Like, I have people attacking me going, you used to like Elon. I'm like, I did. What do you want? I don't know what to tell you. I was excited by space travel and cars and solar. I'm sorry I had to deal with people who are creating dating services all the time. I'm sorry to be attracted to people who are solving real problems. In any case, I missed a lot of things. I completely coped to that. But what is that story? And to me, Mark Cuban is that story is sort of the anti elon, but the same thing. Like, he has prescription drugs. Leaning forward, having tolerance in there, but not the only thing. Right. Why are we bothering with that? Like, that kind of thing? I think he is an ideal candidate. He says he does not want to run.
- [56:00]
Sarah Longwell
He's told me, well, the focus groups were big fans.
- [56:03]
Kara Swisher
Big fans. Big fans.
- [56:04]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. He got a lot of positive. I keep telling him, yeah, he's coming to this principal's first thing I'm gonna tell him, the voters like him.
- [56:12]
Kara Swisher
They love him. They love him. And he's. You know what? Let me just tell you. Elon started off okay, like, from a person not quite as arrogant as the rest of them and became a giant prick. And Mark started off a giant prick when I met him and actually has evolved really well, I think in a way that is his own person. You know, he'll push back on purity. Does. He'll push back on disagreements. And he's the genuine person. He is. And so, I don't know. I feel like he would be a great candidate. I've said that over and over.
- [56:40]
Sarah Longwell
Well, let me just tell you this. This was on last week's episode or maybe two weeks ago. But the number of People, I was just. You're talking to Democrats, and they were like, we need a straight white man. Like, they. They have talked themselves into the idea a. That we're just too sexist and racist a country, which I think is not correct, but the Mark Cuban, like, we need our own celebrity that is deep in the voters because they want to win. People are like, well, what do Democrats want? And I'm like, they want to win. That's what they want.
- [57:05]
Kara Swisher
Yeah. I think you have to win on ideas like, what's your idea? What is the thing? You want to help kids? Academics are suffering. We want kids to learn better. We want drug prices to go down. We want to be able to afford a house. We want everybody to feel safe in their communities, and we want to be tolerant of people. It can't be the only thing. Right. We want just live and let live kind of thing. Is a really good message if it's done right. But not focusing on any one group, you know, people who are sort of anti trans. I get why that worked. I completely get why that worked. And someone who was conservative said to me, oh, trans, transgenders. I was like, why don't you just leave them alone? Leave them alone. Stop bothering them. And they were like, well, yeah, you should leave them alone. I said, don't you think people should live in that limb? He's like, oh, yeah? I'm like, so why don't you get the. The fuck off their backs? Like, get off of them. Like, stop it. It took a second for them to go, yeah, I guess so. I don't care. Why should I care? Like, you know, get people into that mode of, let's stop plaguing each other and demonizing each other. There is a real message of positivity. I do think Cuban does represent that. I know he's a white guy, but he's. He's better than most of them.
- [58:08]
Sarah Longwell
I know we got to get out of here, but there's one question, actually, that I really want to ask, which is, do you think Elon Musk is anti Semitic?
- [58:14]
Kara Swisher
Does it matter? I think he's got a lot of pathologies. I think he's tolerant of anti Semites. That's for sure.
- [58:24]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, but, like, when he does the thing with the hand, do you think he's a troll?
- [58:27]
Kara Swisher
I think he's a troll. That's what I think he was doing there. I think whatever it takes, he'll do to bother people. I've been in rooms many times where he goes, what if I say this? What do you think people will do. And then I'll do this and I'll pretend I did. Like he games this out, right? And so I think he knew precisely what that messaging was. I think he thinks people should joke about it more. And what's the difference? He doesn't feel people's long time pain. You don't have to be anti Semitic to be a complete asshole and a troll. And I think he knew what he was doing and he knew it would affect people and he knew it would trigger people and he did it twice for that reason. And then he made up all kinds of nonsensical explanations for it. Like, come on. And then, you know, I'm Asperger's, whatever his stands did. Like none of that is true. He knew what he was doing. He did it on purpose. I don't know if he's anti Semitic or not, but it sure was an incredibly tasteless and rude thing to do given the history of the Holocaust. But he doesn't care. He's an asshole. I just don't want to say he's an asshole. He's a troll.
- [59:33]
Sarah Longwell
Kara Swisher, you are not an asshole.
- [59:36]
Kara Swisher
Would be an asshole, but I wouldn't do that. It's just cruel. It's just whining.
- [59:39]
Sarah Longwell
You were not an asshole on this podcast, which I appreciate. Very informative.
- [59:43]
Kara Swisher
We know some assholes. Sarah, you and I know what we're thinking about right now, don't we?
- [59:47]
Sarah Longwell
We got through this whole thing by telling no lesbian jokes either, which I was sure we were gonna do.
- [59:51]
Kara Swisher
To one of your detractors. I walked into a room after he was rude to you and I said, did I tell you this? I'm not gonna say who it is, but if someone was rude to you and you were upset by it, and I walked into the room after you had left and I said, oh, the last person I slept with before I decided to become a lesbian really loud.
- [60:09]
Sarah Longwell
You did tell me this story together.
- [60:11]
Kara Swisher
And I said, I forgot it too, because you're so forgettable.
- [60:14]
Sarah Longwell
So the CNN green room's a funny place. That's the funny place.
- [60:18]
Kara Swisher
You deal with them with humor. And that is one thing that they do very well. When it works, it works. When it doesn't, it's cruel. But the ability to have a sense of humor would do. Democrats would do well to think about the appealing parts of that. And I think there is room for that.
- [60:35]
Sarah Longwell
Well, I agree with you. Okay, Cara, thank you so much for joining us. And thanks to all of you for listening to another episode of the focus group podcast, subscribe to the Bulwark on YouTube rate, review us on Apple Podcasts and become a Bulwark plus member at the Bulwark.com we will see you next week.