← The Focus Group Podcast
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- [00:00]
Sarah Longwell
What do you think makes the perfect snack?
- [00:02]
Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient.
- [00:06]
Rachel Jamfazza
Could you be more specific?
- [00:07]
Sarah Longwell
When it's cravinient.
- [00:08]
Rachel Jamfazza
Okay.
- [00:09]
Sarah Longwell
Like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at a.m. p.m. Or a savory breakfast.
- [00:14]
Rachel Jamfazza
Sandwich I can grab in just a second at AM pm. I'm seeing a pattern here.
- [00:18]
Sarah Longwell
Well yeah, we're talking about what I.
- [00:19]
Rachel Jamfazza
Crave, which is anything from AM pm.
- [00:21]
Sarah Longwell
What more could you want?
- [00:22]
Rachel Jamfazza
Stop by AM PM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravenience. AM PM too much. Good stuff.
- [00:30]
Mint Mobile Spokesperson
Mint is still $15 a month for pre premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. 1. It's $15 a month.
- [00:40]
Sarah Longwell
2.
- [00:40]
Mint Mobile Spokesperson
Seriously, it's $15 a month.
- [00:43]
Rachel Jamfazza
3.
- [00:43]
Mint Mobile Spokesperson
No big contracts.
- [00:44]
Progressive Woman 1
4.
- [00:45]
Mint Mobile Spokesperson
I use it. 5 my mom uses it. Are you, are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront.
- [00:53]
Rachel Jamfazza
Payment of $45 for three month plan $15 per month equivalent required.
- [00:56]
Sarah Longwell
New customer offer first three months only.
- [00:57]
Rachel Jamfazza
Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.
- [00:59]
Progressive Woman 2
See mintmobile.com foreign.
- [01:07]
Sarah Longwell
And welcome to the Focus Group podcast. I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark and this week we are catching up with Jen Z. Don't be scared. Now, we spent a bit more time on the more red pilled young right wingers, especially young men on this show, but we're gonna do just like a little bit of that today, as well as check in with young progressives, particularly young progressive women. Since the 2024 election there have been few takes as well worn as the Gen Z gender gap. We see this gap in their politics as well as their life priorities. There's been a lot of polling showing that young men and women are pretty far apart on things like getting married and having children, which is a tough thing for them to be a part on since they're going to need each other. My guest today is a zoomer and a chronicler of Gen Z cultural and political trends. Rachel Jamfazza, founder of up and Up, a media and research firm and substack publication. Rachel, thanks for being here.
- [02:04]
Rachel Jamfazza
Thanks for having me, Sarah.
- [02:06]
Sarah Longwell
All right, so you've said for some time now and you've got some devotees among some of the young kids in my office and they hate it when I call them that because they're not kids. They're Just, they're just zoomers like you. I should recognize that they're adults. But you say that There are really two Gen Zers, Gen Z 1.0, who graduated high school before the pandemic, and. And Gen Z 2.0 who graduated high school after the pandemic. So what are just like, broadly speaking, the political and social differences between your Gen Z1, Gen Z tours?
- [02:39]
Rachel Jamfazza
Yeah. So if you think about the context in which people in Gen Z 1.0 grew up and those in Gen Z 2.0 grew up, they just had really different childhoods and middle school experiences, high school experiences, college experiences. For those who had graduated high school before the start of the pandemic, like myself, and I was actually a senior in college when the pandemic started. We grew up maybe with a flip phone before an iPhone. We remember the 2016 election. That was the first election in which Gen Zers could vote. And then there was the four years of Trump's first term in office that really defined our political upbringing. That was when you had the March for Our Lives and Climate strikes and Black Lives Matter movement and these social movements that Gen Z was really on the forefront of and came to be known as the leaders of. And at the. There was an overarching narrative that Gen Z was overwhelmingly liberal, progressive and idealistic. Then Gen Z 2.0 grew up during COVID Biden was in office, when they were in middle school or high school or even college after the initial start of the pandemic. And they saw Democrats really as responsible for having lockdowns linger on past a time when maybe they thought that it needed to. They missed things like school proms and sports events and theater productions and all the typical things that happen when you're in high school, as well as just like natural flirting conversations between men and women, young men and women, during that time period. And I have seen in my own research, and also in hard polling too, that there had been a shift to the right amongst that younger cohort of Gen Z during that time period. So that's kind of like the cultural political context. But then you also think about the technology that Gen Z grew up with. Like I said, like, I had a flip phone before I had an iPhone. There was no such thing as TikTok when I was in high school and even the vast majority of my college experience. Whereas Gen Z 2.0 has grown up entirely with TikTok. It has changed the political culture. It has changed culture writ large. It changes what songs are popular, even, like, how people talk, you know, all of these little terminologies, even like mannerisms that have been dictated by the TikTok and the for you page algorithm, have really shaped how this sub generation of Gen Z grew up. So those are the two biggest divides that I see.
- [05:01]
Sarah Longwell
So first define algo talk for me. What's that mean?
- [05:05]
Rachel Jamfazza
Like algo speak? I did not coin this term, but it's the idea that young people who have grown up on social media have a specific diction and language that they use of sort of like terms that are trendy or for example, riz. Like that's a word that developed because of social media algorithms.
- [05:21]
Sarah Longwell
I know what riz is. I, I know, I, I know who's got the riz and who doesn't.
- [05:25]
Rachel Jamfazza
Exactly. Well, so this terminology, it's been defined and catapulted into like mainstream conversation because of platforms like TikTok.
- [05:35]
Sarah Longwell
Got it. I have such a strong sense of where I am generationally. Right. I'm something known very specifically. We're a sub genre called a xennial. You were born between sort of 78 and 82 because we are the cohort that basically didn't have technology as young people but were native enough to it. Like it was coming around when we were in high school and in college. And so we're native enough to really understand it, but didn't grow up with it formatively, certainly didn't grow up with social media. And so I can see how these differences really work on people. But where does gen Z start?
- [06:09]
Rachel Jamfazza
2000 1997. So I am born in September 97. So I'm on the oldest cusp of Gen Z and it goes until roughly 2012, although the actual cutoff where Gen Alpha, the next generation starts hasn't officially been determined yet. And I think there's a lot of conversation about whether or not these generational cohorts actually should be confined to these 15 year time periods that they traditionally have just because of how quickly our technology is moving.
- [06:40]
Sarah Longwell
And you think the technology really does then correlate to very specific things that you can point to with each generation?
- [06:49]
Rachel Jamfazza
100%. I wrote about this in an op ed I wrote for the Washington Post and also for my newsletter, the up and up. But of course I do listening sessions with groups of Gen zers across the country. I've heard the distinctions between these micro generations in those conversations. But I'm also the oldest of four and my youngest sibling, my sister, she's less than six years younger than me. And within each of my siblings there are just distinct differences in the types of social media that we used, what was popular, what TV shows were popular, what apps people were using, the way people dressed like, it changes so quickly now, I think mainly because of how fast the algorithms work.
- [07:31]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, so I want to get into this group of Gen Z progressive women we fielded before this episode to level set why younger women may have been more motivated to turn out in this past week's elections. Because we're taping this on Wednesday right after the absolute just destruction of the Republicans in the election. I mean, just huge wave off cycle elections for Democrats basically everywhere, but especially in New Jersey and Virginia. And so just thinking about their motivations to turn out, I want to briefly run through some of the top priorities that this group of progressive women talked about.
- [08:10]
Rachel Jamfazza
Let's talk. Listen.
- [08:12]
Progressive Woman 3
It just seems like some politicians devalue women and they devalue LGBTQ people. It just seems like it's about control rather than like they actually are pro life because they also vote to take away like kids getting free lunch at school. So it's like, do you actually care or do you just want to have control over women and trans people's bodies? And then with LGBTQ rights, it's the same thing.
- [08:43]
Progressive Woman 2
I think top of mind for me has been and probably will be for a while repro rights because in my state when the trigger ban took effect, women completely lost access to abortion and health care, which is now resulting in women having to be life flighted out, ironically to Utah because Utah actually has slightly more rights than Idaho does. So we've had quite a few women that have had, you know, ectopic pregnancies and can't get care. And now there's dispute from the current administration on emtala and if our hospitals have to comply with that and we've lost 40% of our OB GYNs as a state and rural hospitals are closing. So that for me is a really big one. I have a lot of friends who are starting to have kids and every time I hear one is pregnant, I'm happy and also very scared.
- [09:37]
Progressive Woman 4
I would say that global human rights is something that's really important to me. The forefront of that being the atrocities that are happening in Gaza, also Ukraine, and then just the gun violence that we have here in the states. But from more of like a national perspective, definitely our freedom of speech, our amendment rights, we've seen in the past couple of months that some of those have been threatened. And that's really scary to me because that's pretty foundational in our Democracy. So to see some of those amendments and rights be taken away is frightening.
- [10:11]
Progressive Woman 5
I also kind of think that rights are the biggest issue, kind of as a general umbrella. But digging down to it, especially like with these things and the immigration, I think that is a major problem. Point of concern. They're starting to let them come to universities. And I have a very close friend that experienced something very not good from that, despite quite literally being a citizen and just a bunch of hostile interactions. So that is definitely a right, I feel like is being infringed upon both for immigrants and even native citizens.
- [10:45]
Sarah Longwell
I used to live in Washington, moved Virginia, college at Iowa. And so I'm like, I went from a very open state to states that aren't open very much or nearly at all. So one of my things is like, I made sure I have birth control because to be honest, we don't know how much longer birth control is going to be easily accessible for us. And that's really scary to think about. And I feel like reproductive rights goes a lot deeper than my body, my choice. It's more or less women aren't getting the care they need because doctors are too scared to act since they are worried about losing their medical licenses. Mine would be financial instability relating to the job market. I think with the government shutdown, with.
- [11:31]
Rachel Jamfazza
The rise of AI, we've got huge reductions in forces.
- [11:34]
Sarah Longwell
I work in hr, so I see.
- [11:36]
Rachel Jamfazza
This literally every day.
- [11:37]
Sarah Longwell
I think that the kind of survival.
- [11:39]
Rachel Jamfazza
Instinct is kicking in a little bit.
- [11:41]
Sarah Longwell
And it's affecting just about every piece of every person's lives. We have people who are going without food.
- [11:47]
Okay. So I think this gives you a pretty good sense for why young women in particular skewed so heavily towards Democrats in all of the major races this year. But what were your takeaways from this week's elections from a Gen Z perspective?
- [12:02]
Rachel Jamfazza
Yeah. So if you look at the exit polling from last night's elections, you see that young women really outpaced young men in terms of their support for the Democratic candidates. And in New York for Zara and Mamdani, and that didn't surprise me, but I think it just shows that the gender gap is still very real. And even if Democrats are making up their lost ground with young men, which the exit polls did show that they are, there's still a stark divide between young men and young women. And I've really tried to understand part of, you know, why this is over the past few years. And, you know, you hear it in your focus group, the way that the young women are talking about the issues that matter to them most. But I think that beyond the issues, it's about values and morals. And that's something that has come up in many of my listening sessions as well. Where young women have grown up in Trump's America, that is the world that they know. And that to them oftentimes feels very hostile. And even if there are young women who agree with the president, and I've even heard from young women who actually voted for President Trump last year who completely despise how he talks about women. And it was kind of a sticking point for them where it was something that they had to get over in order to vote for him. And so I think just in general, the way that women are talked about is something that has been a concern for young women in general. They see the divide with their male counterparts and they are voting for Democrats on the whole by large margins, because they feel that the Democratic Party or these candidates are speaking about women in a way that is more appropriate in their eyes. And I think, like in the conversations that we just heard, the young women, the way that they spoke about reproductive health care access and women's rights and bodily autonomy in general, that's something that really does matter to young women. This is a time in their lives where they are going through these issues. You had one of those young women talk about seeing her friends who are pregnant. And so it can be very scary if you're in a state where abortion access is restricted. And it's something that you're literally living through in that moment. And I don't think that can be discounted.
- [14:18]
Sarah Longwell
Is there anything else that people just kind of get wrong about your generation? What don't people understand?
- [14:23]
Rachel Jamfazza
Yeah, I think people don't realize how much this is actually showing up in real life in terms of the gender gap. Like, you see the headlines, you see the data, and the fact that young women and men are far apart, or that their life priorities are varying and oftentimes in contrast with one another. But that's actually showing up in how they live their day to day lives. And in part, it's because of the environment in which they grew up, which has created these two Gen Zs in general. I had a listening session in Arkansas last spring and one of the strongest anecdotes that I remember from that conversation was a young woman saying that because she was in high school during COVID she felt like she never learned how to interact with the opposite gender. Like, she said she doesn't know how to talk to boys and she was like, I didn't have an opportunity to do that when I was a teenager. And she feels like it's really impacting her life today as a college student. She's now a senior in college. When you think about these data points, imagine what that actually feels like for a young person who's living it every day. I also hear that, you know, there's data showing both in that NBC poll that came out showing young men and young women's different life measures of success that shows that young women are far more anxious than young men. There is a 20 point gap in terms of anxiety that young women are reporting versus young men. And that comes up in my conversations all the time. I had teens last year. This was a teen girl said that trying to make plans with a guy is the hardest thing that she can possibly think about to do. So this summer for the up and up, one of our interns, her name's Brooke, she's a twin and she's grown up in the exact same household, schooling system, everything as her twin brother. And she wrote a piece for us about the varied experiences that they've had and their perspective on the world, even though they have grown up the exact same way. And she spoke to this sense of anxiety as well. She also pulled some of her friends and classmates. And just the way that teen girls and teen boys are thinking about the future or not, I think young women feel a lot more pressure in planning for the future and in planning in general. And that's showing up in the day to day conversation and also in the classroom. There has been a lot of conversation about the way that students are treated by teachers. I've had young men tell me that there's oftentimes perceptions placed upon them. And I know this goes back and this isn't unique to Gen Z, but I do think that the gender gap contributes to it. And also the fact that beyond the political gender gap and the life experiences and measures of success, we see young women outpacing young men in terms of high school graduation rates and college enrollment. And that shows up in the classroom too in terms of who's the most confident to raise their hand to speak up in class. And I think it is contributing to a lot of the internal anxiety that young men and young women feel as well.
- [17:27]
Sarah Longwell
Just because I want to be clear on that, because it's pretty interesting. When you say in the classroom, do you mean that men feel like their female peers are outpacing them in the classroom and that creates feelings of insecurity? Is that the point you're making, I.
- [17:43]
Rachel Jamfazza
Think it creates feelings of insecurity and also resentment a little bit. And I think that oftentimes young men feel judged by older counterparts, whether it's teachers or parents or just generally older generations, that they are markedly different than the young women that they're either in class with or that they grew up with. And unfortunately, the reality of this is that all of the outside noise, including the algorithms, are pitting young men and young women against each other instead of trying to bring them into a space to have productive conversations and dialogue across genders. And that's in really unfortunate reality.
- [18:26]
Sarah Longwell
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- [19:55]
Progressive Woman 2
So I've had a pride flag up for quite some time. I have a couple of garden flags also that say equality is not pie. You know, basically, just because you have a piece of it doesn't mean that you're having your rights taken away. And then I have another one that says my favorite season is the fall of the Patriarchy. So it seems the pride flag is really what does them in. They go by on these little E bikes and they'll yell slurs at us and I just smile and wave at them and they really don't like that. So yeah, I switch them out every few months. So right now there's actually a resist flag up outside my house. And then I change them seasonally to make sure that they remain exciting.
- [20:37]
Progressive Woman 3
The downside of like social media with Gen Z is like, on one side it does kind of expose you to different cultures and you can become more like educated and be more progressive and understanding and have more empathy. But on the other side, I do see that there is a rise of like white supremacy and just like the red pill guys and like the podcast bros. And I think that a lot of Gen Z's Internet usage is not monitored because it was so new when we were children. Our parents really didn't know how to monitor that. And I still don't think that people know how to monitor it because it's so accessible and it's just easier to reach people and it's easier to have very progressive ideas that's rooted in like empathy, but also very easy to have outright ideas that are rooted in just like patriarchy and racism and homophobia.
- [21:37]
Sarah Longwell
One of the big things that I've noticed talking to like men roughly my age is that some of them are more, more right leaning. But mainly when it comes to guns. Like that is one of their main reasons of leaning towards the right is that they don't want guns to be heavily controlled because they think that'll to other things. But they tend to be a little bit more open on topics such as like lgbtq. Transgender is still weird topic with some of them. It's just kind of interesting. It's like that's the big reason why you're leaning towards that side is you don't want heavy restrictions on guns, knowing all the violence that they cause.
- [22:22]
Progressive Woman 4
Throughout history, men have been at basically the center of the universe, the center of art, politics, basically everything. And truly, women couldn't necessarily exist without men. We couldn't own property, we couldn't vote, we couldn't have rights to our own children. Obviously in recent times that has changed. And now women, in the words of Cher, we don't necessarily need men.
- [22:43]
Mint Mobile Spokesperson
Great.
- [22:43]
Progressive Woman 4
If you have a guy, that's great, but we don't need them. And I think maybe they're starting to feel threatened by that and maybe threatened by the opportunities that we as women are starting to be given. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but I absolutely do not think that Jesus would do the things that certain people say that he would do. Jesus was literally an immigrant, so I definitely think that he would have loved everyone. And I think that people, especially in my state, use that as a way to justify their more conservative beliefs.
- [23:12]
Progressive Woman 5
We've Also started hearing things about, like, the male loneliness epidemic. Yeah, I'm seeing some nods. So that's not just my area where people just can't get a girlfriend. And then they're, like, making that everybody's problem. And I think it's just, again, reiterating things like that. And because the media is not moderated and because algorithms work the way they do, not saying this is a bad thing, but a lot of people end up getting entrenched in their own social groups, and it ends up exacerbating things.
- [23:41]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, lots to unpack there. Talk to me about young men in Gen Z. It was pretty interesting to hear it from the perspective of young progressive women. I mean, guns, hostility. I couldn't tell if it was hostility to LGBT people or if it's just, like, based now to kind of make fun of that. And it was also they were talking about algorithmically how men and women live in different algorithms. But what do you see in your research around young men?
- [24:10]
Rachel Jamfazza
So I think the fact that young men have, over the past few years, shifted to the right is very real. You know, if you think about the type of content that they're constantly absorbing on their for you page or their Explore page, it is gendered. That's true of young men and young women. Like, if you look at a young woman's phone and a young man's phone, you're just going to get two totally different sets of information and entertainment and content, and it dictates the way that they view the world. I think young men are feeling like, you know, it's gotten a little bit better, I think, since the 2024 election. But let's just look, before the 2024 election, they felt like there was one party that was speaking to them and willing to listen to them and welcoming them in, and another party that said, you know, your time has sort of passed. And I think that played a huge role in how young men view not just politics, but view themselves, because they have kind of been told Gen Z men that even though they didn't grow up during a time where they feel that patriarchy has existed, even if many young women will still say that it does, they feel like we're sort of past that, and yet they still feel like they're being blamed for that. Whereas if you ask a young woman, and I know your question's about young men, but if you ask a young woman, she will of course say patriarchy still exists. And I think even young women who are on the right or who voted for Trump will say that, but young men more often think that that has been resolved and there's a tension there. I think that young men, especially young white men, oftentimes also feel like there are certain things that they're not supposed to say or that they shouldn't speak in certain circumstances or situations. And they're very aware of that. And they're also very aware on the personal level. They don't want to accidentally be accused of any behavior that could be seen as derogatory or inappropriate towards a woman. So, for example, I've asked a lot of questions about when you're in a social setting, what is it like when you go up to talk to a woman? And a lot of young men say that they're just afraid to do it because they don't want to be accused of coming off the wrong way.
- [26:30]
Sarah Longwell
I've actually done a lot of focus groups with parents around technology. And I asked parents, them, and I remember this pretty vividly about what worries them about their kids on the Internet and their fears about what was happening for boys and girls were so different because for boys, they were basically worried about porn, how it affected their views of women, how accessible it was, how it might sort of warp their minds about normal sex and things like that. But for women, parents were really worried about predators and worried about bullying and worried about self esteem and like, the mental toll it takes a woman. And I actually meant to say this, it's not in the groups, but you were talking about anxiety when the young women, the progressive women, were introducing sort of themselves or just talking about the state of the country. Because we always ask an opening question of just how do you think things are going in the country? And the word anxiety came up a lot. And it wasn't even them saying, I, I have anxiety. It was sort of like, anxiety is everywhere. Anxiety is the state that we live in. One woman mentioned Andrew Tate. And this is one of those things where I feel like maybe as a old person now, I have this real concern about young women being in this environment with young men that I feel like are consuming a ton of content from men who genuinely hate women, who call for violence. I mean, even like, Nick Fuentes has gotten more popular, who just makes jokes about raping women all the time. But these women, the progressive women especially, I mean, these were real heads on their shoulders. There's a little bit of like, yeah, well, we don't need guys unless, you know, maybe they're upset because we don't need them so much anymore. But they didn't have A sense of fear around men where I guess I, I could see it if that was true. And I know you're wondering what's the question in here? And I guess I'm just unloading a bunch of thoughts, but I don't know if you have a reaction to any of that.
- [28:26]
Rachel Jamfazza
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. I think, I think it's a good point. Like, in a way you could say that there's a whole group of young men who seem to be afraid of young women. I'm not so sure that young women are afraid of young men, but I do think that there is a disdain for sort of like the online ecosystem that young women oftentimes assume young men are a part of, even if young men actually aren't a part of it. And so this is kind of what I mean by all of this outside noise. I think it's like really distracting. I think it's really hard to ignore. But when you actually look in the day to day lives of teen girls and boys, young men and young women, it's not perhaps as young men hate young women, young women hate young men, as it could seem to be. I think, like they really do want to come together. There just aren't really opportunities and there aren't really spaces for it either. And I think just going back to the point I was sort of making before about the environment in which young Gen Z women grew up, if you look at Trump's first term in office, the time of the women's marches and MeToo, there were spaces that they could go and be around other groups of women and be fighting for and pushing for progress. And even if it ultimately didn't lead to the results that many of those people, a part of that movement, wanted to, and we saw Roe vs Wade be overturned just a couple of years later, it still gave a sense of like sisterhood and camaraderie. And I think that a lot of young women feel that with other young women, whereas for young men there wasn't really an alternative and there wasn't really an effort made to have them be allies as a part of any of those movements. Or even after Roe vs. Wade, there wasn't really any sort of push to get young men on board in fighting for reproductive healthcare access. Instead, I think a lot of young men like either turned inward, didn't really know where to go and kind of didn't go anywhere at all. Some of them may have been pushed more to those extremes, other ones just weren't really paying attention to the issue at all. But Young women were finding sisterhood and solidarity. And so they're kind of like, we don't need the young men. Whereas the young men are kind of just like left to themselves.
- [30:38]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I don't know if this quote is gonna make it in here, but one of the young women used the phrase something like, I don't need men for fulfillment. My heart is full with the women that are around me. And I was like, oh, okay. And that felt group wide in the young progressive group. And I guess you could see that, right? If you have, and I don't know that it's a whole generation, but if you have a lot of women, young women saying, yeah, men just like, aren't that important to me. If that does cause men to be like angry and act out in ways or seek out media, that, that sort of creates this sense of like, yeah, well, women suck anyway too. And I just, I have young boys and I want them to have, I don't know, robust relationships with women as three dimensional people. And I guess part of what you're saying, though, and it makes me feel hopeful and so maybe you could reiterate it if you think it's true, is that we in the political and the sphere of sociology who are reading, you know, Jonathan Haidt or whatever, like, we might be freaking out as adults that like, oh my gosh, these kids, they're not okay. And that sounds like you think there's some truth to that. But you also think, but they're also okay. They're just trying to figure it out in this new world of technology and everything else. Like, they don't hate each other.
- [31:59]
Rachel Jamfazza
I agree with that. They don't hate each other. But even if they have preconceived notions about what the other gender may believe, they for the most part want to be able to find some balance or just, you know, live in equilibrium. Like, they don't, they don't want to be at odds. I think that's the moral of the story. Like, they don't want to be at odds. They don't want there to be that unnecessary tension. I think going back to your point about the young women who sort of felt they were fine, they didn't need men, that's very real. That fully exists. I've heard of many young women who are like, my main goal in life is financial security and independence. I want to work, I want feel that I will be well enough off that I can live by myself. I'm not interested in having kids. Like, I'm good. That's definitely A very real sentiment that plenty of young women feel. I think that's a little bit dejecting to young men who don't feel that way. And in my listening sessions I have asked, what is your goal for the future? When you think about the future, what does it look like to you? What does success look like? Kind of similar to the question in the NBC poll as well. And the number of young men who will say the word wife or my family like that is a very high priority. I've heard that in my own conversations. It's not like even a glamorized thing. It's just something that is genuinely important to them. And that's not the case for young women. I've barely ever heard a young woman say a husband. I'll hear them say family or kids, but I don't really ever hear them say husband. And those don't mesh well together. And that's really hard for young men. And it's kind of rejecting. And this also is a generation that doesn't handle rejection well. I've written about that as well.
- [33:44]
Sarah Longwell
Oh yeah, just give me two seconds on that.
- [33:46]
Rachel Jamfazza
Yeah. So it's ironic because Gen Z has been the most exposed to rejection in part because of social media. You kind of put yourself out there at any given point in time and if you don't get a million likes and comments and reposts, et cetera, it can feel very rejecting. At the same time, you can put out a false version of yourself that you want the world to see. And then also, our generation was bubble wrapped. We had helicopter parents, we were coddled from the time we were born. Everyone got a participation trophy. And I don't think that really set us up well because people don't know how to deal with rejection. At the same time, there's like this massive conversation about the chaos of college admissions and higher education. And a lot of young people are used to being rejected in that process. So it's just a very nuanced and complicated relationship with rejection, both online and in person. I think in some ways we're very used to rejection and in other ways don't really know how to handle it. And that doesn't make for a great recipe either. And I think that when it comes to how young men and young women are interacting, a lot of the anxiety and the fear stems from the fear of rejection.
- [35:01]
Progressive Woman 1
Hmm.
- [35:02]
Sarah Longwell
Did you read the book Rejection? It started out okay, but it got weird. Anyway, it was a Chris Hayes recommendation that I ended up not loving. This show is sponsored by Mint Mobile if you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no bs. Here's why so many people are making the switch. Ditch overpriced wireless with their jaw dropping. Monthly bills, unexpected overages and hidden fees. Plans start at $15 a month at Mint. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. Ready to say yes to saying no? Make the switch@mintmobile.com the focus group. That's mintmobile.com the focus group. Upfront payment of $45 required, which is the equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for the first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan taxes and fees extra. CMINT Mobile for details. All right, let's keep going on the young men loneliness epidemic because the women brought this up, the women brought it up as a phenomenon, the idea that there is an awareness of the loneliness of young men. And so we asked the rest of this group of women about the discourse around loneliness and male loneliness and here's what they said.
- [36:37]
There's a lot of shame now around the loneliness epidemic is a great example of hey, if you're an openly right leaning guy, a lot of women especially on the left are going to think that's embarrassing and there's not really a space to have a conversation of like why do you believe in that immigration policy and in a no judgment shame free zone to kind of like maybe make those views a little bit more moderate. And so we see those shifts to the right and then I think they're staying on the right.
- [37:03]
Progressive Woman 1
You see, like women nowadays, I think we're very, we're not necessarily lonely when we're single. And I think that's maybe a little bit different from some men. And that's why the whole male loneliness epidemic is so often brought up and talked about. I think there's also an element of just like women are empowered as they should be nowadays to make something of themselves. And so something like being in a relationship is not necessarily oftentimes what they care about all the time. And I think it also helps. There's the whole thing about like male and female, like friendships. I think a lot of the times with men it's society has kind of trained them to have like their Companion, their partner is who they tend to share the most of their life with. Type of thing. Like, there's this type of idea for them. But then for women, I think we're very fulfilled in our friendships, and sometimes that allows us to have our hearts very full and not have to necessarily crave for, like, a romantic connection with somebody. And that's, I think, also feeding a little bit into that.
- [38:11]
Progressive Woman 4
I think that there's just a loss of third spaces.
- [38:14]
Sarah Longwell
Mental health is declining, and I think.
- [38:16]
Rachel Jamfazza
That our generation is making hobbies cringy. So men don't really have, like, a place they can go to, like, give their anger, or they think they don't.
- [38:24]
Progressive Woman 4
Have a place to express their emotions and stuff. And I think that's why it's rising.
- [38:30]
Rachel Jamfazza
A little bit more. And you see more kind of protesters and stuff like that.
- [38:33]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, talk to me about third spaces. I gotta say, I did feel old listening to some of these groups. I was like, what are they talking about? They all seem to understand each other. Is third spaces like a bowling league? Like, it's just a club. When you said this before, there's not places for these men and women to interact. And I was like, I don't know. They go to school together. Like, they party together. Like, I don't know. What do you mean they don't have spaces? Explain these young people to me.
- [38:59]
Rachel Jamfazza
I think it's changed. I think also a lot of the like spaces are kind of gendered, but more so for women. So just kind of like to react to the third space. Third space is like a place that is not online, that is not like a formal school setting where young people can go or where anyone can go. And this has become very popularized. I think the terminology, just because, like, there aren't that many, or at least there weren't that many spaces. Especially right after the pandemic for young people to go to socialize. Like, I think Covid changed the way young people socialize, period. There's been a rebound. And I've written a little bit about campus party culture, which kind of looks more like what millennials had than what I had when I was in college now. So there's been a reverse, of course, there. But for the vast majority of young people who are in high school or who are out of college, it's really hard to socialize. I this is why you see the pop up of things like run clubs. I live in New York City. There's like new game sort of coffee shops or places where you can go and have drinks. But it's like you play backgammon. So there's definitely a resurgence of wanting to be in person. I think that's a key part of this, too, because our generation had such formative years spent in lockdown, like, there was no opportunity to engage with anyone, let alone the opposite gender. And as a result, there is such a desire for that now. The other thing that really stood out to me in the comments from those young women was this idea that young women can feel fulfilled by female friendship, and they don't know if their male counterparts feel the same. And I think this goes back to the point I made before about how there are community groups and clubs and sort of extracurriculars for women, and that's very much accepted even at professional careers. There's, like, groups that are like, women in law, women in business, women in tech, women in AI. Like, there's all these different sort of women in things, but there's no men in because, like, men have always been the majority. But I think that as more women enter into these spaces, you know, when work ends, they're going to happy hour with groups of women. The men are kind of like, what are we supposed to do now? And I think that's really affecting how young men both think about themselves, their relationship to women, and then also just this gender gap in general when it comes to the third space. I wrote recently about the rise of religion, and there was some Pew data that showed more of a resurgence in the role of religion in American life for young people. And this is something that I've been thinking a lot about, because when we hear about conservative young people, we oftentimes get this caricature of a young in a MAGA hat who's super conservative and maybe even evangelical. And that's kind of like the image that young religious people get, is that they're all conservative. But in my recent research, that hasn't been the case at all. I've heard a lot of young women especially, and young women of color and young women in minority communities who are sharing that religion and faith and spirituality is really important to them, and they're finding community there as well. I did this conversation over the summer with a group of two girls who they're friends from church, and their families are friends, and they are in this group of girls together at church, and that has such a sense of purpose for them in their lives and a sense of community for them in their lives. And they're pretty liberal. Like, they are not by any stretch of the imagination conservative. And I Think that's a huge misconception. And part of the reason why religion and spirituality and faith is having this moment with young people is because they are looking for those spaces to come together that are outside of politics, outside of school, where they can just be in community. And also it provides a sense of stability amid all of the anxiety that they described around them.
- [43:00]
Sarah Longwell
There's a young woman who was a Mormon Church of Latter Day Saints, she talked about that, but she was also quite progressive but like in a faith based context. And she was very articulate about that. I guess one of the things that also jumps out at me is the loneliness thing is everywhere. Like, I mean, this is obviously bowling alone. Robert Putnam's book was a big deal when it came out because it was really touching a nerve on something. But this is just something I hear in the focus groups. People are lonely. Like they have been driven inside to their computers and it does not provide them with the same, I'm going to use the word spiritual, but I think, I mean like whatever feeds your being just doesn't give them that nutrition. Because you keep mentioning Covid and obviously that's a big demarcation line and how you're looking at Gen Z, we kind of like returned to life without grappling with the damage that Covid did to a lot of people and how much it changed people. And because I was doing focus groups all through Covid, I just saw the enormous sadness that was created by people missing important life events, the ability to be with other people that they loved. I mean, so many people had their parents die while Covid happened and they couldn't go be with them. And it caused wounds that I don't think are healed. And so I talk about it on this show a lot, but I'm not sure we talk broadly enough about how much loneliness is messing with our politics because the desperation to be on a team in a tribe, to have that space, like how much of that is being now like kind of shoveled into politics because people aren't finding it other places. Does that sound right to you?
- [44:42]
Rachel Jamfazza
100%. And I think of course the pandemic was hard on everyone and I don't know what it would have been like to be a parent or a grandparent or living alone as someone who wasn't a young person during that time. But if you think about the time span that that occupied for young people as they were growing up, like that's when they're developing who they are, what they believe, their friendships coming to understand themselves and it was defined by the pandemic. And so I'll have some people sometimes say to me, like, why are you still talking about COVID It's in the past. And I'm like, yeah, but it really shaped and colored the worldview that Gen Z is going to have for the rest of their lives. I think Gen Alpha might have been young at that point in time. Maybe it didn't affect them as much and good for them that that's the case. But for Gen Z, like, we were in such a formative span of years that there's really no denying the way that it altered people's lives no matter who they are. And I also don't think we know yet a lot of the ways in which it affected young people. I think there's going to be ramifications that we see for years to come. And we don't even have the research on it yet because it's too soon to when it happened.
- [45:58]
Sarah Longwell
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- [46:01]
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Rachel Jamfazza
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Sarah Longwell
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- [46:19]
Rachel Jamfazza
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Sarah Longwell
That's the sound of Downy Unstoppable scent beads going into your washing machine and.
- [46:33]
Rachel Jamfazza
Giving your clothes freshness that lasts all day long. There it is again. It's like music to your ears. Or more like music to your nose. That freshness is irresistible. Let's get a Downy Unstoppables bottle shake. And now a sniff solo. Nice. With Downy Unstoppables, you just toss wash. Wow. For all day freshness.
- [46:59]
Sarah Longwell
Hey, one of the other things you write a lot about that I find very interesting and I think everybody is trying to figure out what you do about it is just your generation's relationships with screenshots. And as AI becomes more prevalent, like when I think about my Xennial designation, I mean, we just did grow up outside. No one had an iPad. TV was like a structured time. All except in the summers when you could watch it all morning until you heard the MASH helicopter and then you knew it was time for the adults to watch tv. But like, I don't know, tell me about what you think the screens and the increased AI and the algorithms, like, what's it doing to young people? Yeah.
- [47:41]
Rachel Jamfazza
So both the hard Data. But also my qualitative research shows that even though Gen Z is using AI every day, and they are, for the most part, with few exceptions, they're really anxious about it because they don't really know how to use it. And also they don't know how they're supposed to use it. So they're really afraid of using it incorrectly and being penalized for doing so. So whether that's in a school context and they're using it, but they don't want to be cheating, or they are using it to cheat and don't want to be caught, or they aren't sure if they're supposed to use it, there's no rules around it. So, like, they could. But they ethically feel a little bit funny about it. Or if they're in the work context and everyone's using it, there's no rules around it. They see their friends using it, so they're like, oh, if I don't use it, I'm missing out. There's a huge FOMO around it. I think what's underrated is the anxiety that young people have around AI. And also they're being told that it's going to come and take all of their jobs, and if they don't know how to use it, they're going to miss out. So that's a lot to take in, especially at this point in time where life already feels hard. They grew up during COVID like we've talked about. They're lonely, the job market is not great. It's hard to afford things. And this just compounds on top of everything as sort of this, like, overarching existential threat. And there's also a lot of fear of what could be lost if everything is reliant on AI. I've had a lot of young people, young women especially, I see a big gender gap here too, saying that they're afraid. I had one young woman tell me last spring that she's afraid that everyone could just become running around like little dummies. I've had a bunch of students tell me that they're worried that it's going to diminish their education, that they're not going to actually retain and absorb the information that they're learning. But also that perhaps their degree from whatever school they're in will become irrelevant the second they get it because they didn't have an AI component as a part of their education. So there's just like a lot of swirling around when it comes to AI and the feelings around it. And then the other Piece of it, though, is that they are using it and talk about loneliness. They're using it as friends, as mentors, as coaches, as dating gurus. I did a whole piece about how ChatGPT is the new dating guru, where young people, teenagers, college students, are literally uploading screenshots of texts and having ChatGPT decode it for them, saying what they should send back, trying to figure out if the other person is flirting or if it's a friendly message. One young woman said she used it to help with a breakup and that it was actually really helpful in that way. Another young woman said she used it to see if she was. Had, like, an attachment problem. I mean, it just. It runs the gambit, but it's really being used. And I don't even think people are aware of how pervasive it is as, like, a tool for support. And there's a lot of complications there. And it's already led to really tragic results.
- [50:47]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I see it. 40% of high school students have sought out mental health support from AI or know someone who has, and 19% have had a romantic relationship with AI or know somebody who has. I don't even understand that. Like, I don't know what that means.
- [51:03]
Rachel Jamfazza
I can't say I do either. I haven't used it that way, but I have heard from people who have, and it's just like a friend. It's someone to talk to.
- [51:14]
Sarah Longwell
Oh, that does stress me out because I don't know, if I get bogged down in pondering some of this, I'll get depressed. So for the last part of this, we had a really interesting conversation with a couple of our focus groups about their life priorities. We basically sought to recreate that NBC Decision Desk poll back in September that showed a major gap between men and women and conservatives and liberals on 13 key markers of personal success. And they are having a job or career you find fulfilling, having enough money to do the things you want to do, achieving financial independence, having emotional stability, using your talents and resources to help others, owning your own home, having no debt, being spiritually grounded, making your family or community proud, having children, being married, being able to retire early, and fame and influence. So we asked these groups to rank their top three and bottom three from that list. So let's start with the progressive women and listen to what they had to say.
- [52:19]
Progressive Woman 1
I would say probably being married, having children, and being spiritually grounded are my bottom three. Just because I'm somebody I think I've come to terms with, like, not having children. Like, if I am Going to have children, they're probably going to be adopted. I just feel kind of strongly about that area. And then for my three most important, I would probably say having enough money to do things I want, using talents and resources to help others, and probably being able to retire early. I think the general motif of those is that I come from a background, like, I'm low income, so growing up in an environment that I been in, I value the stability that having money helps with. And so I want to make sure that I have that throughout my adult life. And that's very important to me.
- [53:13]
Progressive Woman 4
I put using talents and resources to help others, being married and having children. And then for my three least important, I put fame and influence, being able to retire early and having a job or career that you find fulfilling. I do recognize that my answers might be a little untraditional. Something really important to me is I'm a feminist, so definitely allowing women to choose what they feel is best in their lives and what is most important to them. I love a line in Little Women when, if you guys have seen that movie, if not, go watch it when Beth and Joe are talking. And Jo, she's definitely more of a go getter. Her career is really important to her. But Beth, one of her more important values and beliefs was to have a family and have children and get married. And she says that just because my dreams are different than yours doesn't make them less valuable. And that's how I feel. I think that those are things that I value and those are things that I want for me. But if other people don't want those things for them, then I support what they want to do as well. And then as far as, like, why I chose my three least, I don't really care about being famous. I don't necessarily care about retiring early. And then as far as a job or a career that I find fulfilling, I would enjoy to find that. But I think that in my life I can find fulfillment from other areas, more from my relationships than from work.
- [54:26]
Sarah Longwell
It made me a little bit sad that she felt the need to justify, like, having marriage and having kids as. Oh, that's an unconventional take. And I think like part of all of us as progressives, like, everybody should be able to craft their own vision of success and like, the rise of like, trad wifeism being kind of like, oh, you know, women were being really anti that. It's like it's perfectly fine to want, you know, a partner and children. And like, that should be totally fine. Yeah, my top three are having Enough money, being married, and emotional stability. I think a lot about, like the Maslow's pyramid. And I think those three would leave me pretty happy. And I also think companionship and a partner is really important to me. And I see that as important for personal success. And then least important were fame and influence, being spiritually grounded, and owning my own home. The reason why I don't see owning a home as really being a huge success is because it kind of feels.
- [55:25]
Progressive Woman 5
Like owning a home is a little.
- [55:26]
Sarah Longwell
Bit of a pipe dream at this point. The Internet's a bit of an echo chamber, which is kind of something that we've been touching on thematically throughout the entire conversation. But to me, owning a home just seems like one of those that would be really cool if it happened. But I don't think that's going to happen either anytime soon or if ever. Even if you are debt free and if you have a good credit score, it's like, where are you going to find a home in a place that you really want to go and settle down in?
- [55:56]
Progressive Woman 5
Least important would be being married, having children, and fame and influence. And it's not necessarily because I don't want things like kids or marriage, but it's like, if I want those, then I'm gonna go out and get those. That's not a determinant of my success. Like, that's just not related. Like, that's apples and oranges right there. If I get married, I'm not suddenly considering myself successful. If I don't get married, I'm not considering myself a failure. It's just if it happens, it happens. It happens in the way of life, okay?
- [56:32]
Sarah Longwell
The hardest part of that for me was listening to her say Little Women is a movie, which of course it is, but guys, it's a book. It's a book first. Okay, go read the book. If you haven't, then watch the movie. There's two of them. They're both great. Wynonna Rider, Claire Dane's version is my personal favorite. But Greta Gerwig also did an excellent adaptation recently.
- [56:51]
Rachel Jamfazza
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- [57:16]
Sarah Longwell
When impossible odors get stuck in.
- [57:21]
You know that big bargain detergent jug.
- [57:23]
Rachel Jamfazza
Is 80% water, right? It doesn't clean as well. 80% water. I thought I was getting a better deal because it's so big.
- [57:30]
Sarah Longwell
If you want a better clean, Tide.
- [57:32]
Rachel Jamfazza
Pods are only 12% water. The rest is pure, concentrated cleaning ingredients. Oh, let me make an announcement. Attention, shoppers, if you want a real.
- [57:41]
Progressive Woman 2
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- [57:43]
Rachel Jamfazza
Stop paying for watered down detergents. Pay for clean. If it's gotta be clean, it's gotta be Tide Pods. Water content based on the leading bargain liquid detergent.
- [57:53]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, we're gonna compare and contrast. I'm gonna have you listen to the Trump voters. I will say, though, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. This NBC, when they did the poll, it reflected what we are hearing in these groups and people kind of freaked out about it because one of the things the poll found was that progressive women were much less interested in getting.
- [58:14]
Rachel Jamfazza
Married and having kids.
- [58:15]
Sarah Longwell
And it sort of goes to everything we're talking about here. And the Trump voting group, these young, we'll call them conservatives, although I have some terminology concerns about that these days, but much more focused on getting married and having kids. Let's listen to them.
- [58:31]
Rachel Jamfazza
My faith is the number one thing, and then my family. So, you know, that takes all three of the top ones right there. As far as why I chose those as my least appealing, I mean, I have a career. It doesn't really matter to me if it fulfills me because I'm fulfilled in other ways of my life. So, yeah, owning a home is great. I do own a home. I love financial stability and independence, but it's ultimately not what matters most to me. And then the fame and influence. Yeah, I just don't care about that at all.
- [59:02]
Mint Mobile Spokesperson
My number one would be spiritually grounded. And then being married and having children and then the bottom three, no particular order, but fame and influence. Being able to retire early, I think I'm going to be 95 years old if I'm still alive and probably still working at some capacity just because I like it. And then I know financial independence, income, financial, independent, but maybe having emotional stability. And probably the reason for the top three with spirituality and then being married and having children would be. Those for me are sequential. It's a waterfall effect. Starting from the spirituality point of view. Having a good marriage comes from having a good faith, which gives you a good model for your marriage. And then having children comes from, of course, ideally, being married. Not always, but that's the ideal there. And then the bottom three, I don't know, fame and influence. You know, I'm a big believer and it's much harder to be good than this, to be great. There's a lot of great people out there. You can. You can figure out how to achieve some level of greatness, but it's much harder to be a good person. Yeah, being able to retire early. I don't. I think our generations really walked away from working as being virtuous, where work is absolutely a virtue, as long as what you're doing is a good career and not, you know, an only fans girl, I guess, or an only fans guy. My top three were being spiritually grounded. Obviously, as a believer, life is short. Eternity is a heck of a lot longer than that. So I say get your soul right, and then everything else will fall into place afterwards. I said, I mean, a good job or career that you find fulfilling, being Gen Z', ers, obviously work ethic is not the same as it used to be. People are looking forward to time off versus looking forward to putting extra hours in for their families or, you know, whatever else they're looking forward to. And then my last thing was having money to do the things that you want to do. I guess, like, that term sounds selfish, but for me, I guess it is. Like, if you have the first two, being spiritually grounded or have a career that's fulfilling, I think you can use those resources for really cool opportunities, whether it's a ministry or a group or just, you know, paying it forward. My father, as a saying, like, plant seeds for a tree that you may never sit in the shade of. I like that mentality because it just means, like, you're looking for not just at yourself, but those that will come forward. So that way every generation might have a better perspective than you might have.
- [61:08]
Sarah Longwell
If you're spiritually grounded, you're most likely.
- [61:10]
Going to be emotionally stable.
- [61:12]
So those kind of turned into one for me. Getting married and having children also turned.
- [61:16]
Into one for me.
- [61:17]
I would love to get married someday and have children. Even if I can't physically have children because of my health problems, I'm still going to adopt because there are children out there who need love and parents, and I can give that to them. And then the last one would be financial stability, slash, having enough money to do what I want. I grew up very poor, so financial.
- [61:37]
Rachel Jamfazza
Stability is very important for me.
- [61:39]
Sarah Longwell
And being poor. As I grew up, a lot of people helped us. And so I want to one day be in the position to help someone.
- [61:47]
Who has less than me and who needs help.
- [61:50]
So those were my top three that are actually six. The bottom three, fame and influence I never cared about being famous.
- [61:59]
So you've talked a lot about how men and women are kind of talking past each other in your writing. And since we started there, and a lot of this has been about the gender gap, why don't we close there as well? But like when you saw that poll and then you hear the way these young people talk, like, what's your assessment of that? Are we doomed?
- [62:19]
Rachel Jamfazza
No, no. I actually have a hot take on this. I don't think it's that the progressive young women are saying that they never want to have kids or a family. I think in prioritizing financial independence and freedom and stability, they're just looking to be secure before they think about having family or kids. And I think that's reflected in some of the quotes we just heard. I think it's not that they don't ever want to have kids, they just want to make sure that they're well set up before they do it. And even one young woman said, you know, she doesn't want to think about a life partner or get married until she can be in a position where she can take care of herself first. And I think that Gen Z women, especially the Gen Z women who are the most progressive, have been raised with this idea that they need to be able to take care of themselves because no one else is going to take care of them. And with that in mind, they're laser focused on getting their life in order so that they can bring other people into it. So I think that's really important to note and I hope that provides a little bit of optimism and maybe it creates an opportunity for, for young men to kind of understand that too. And then the other like, major piece of this that I'm hearing from both the young women, the progressive young women, but also the Trump voters, is the idea of work, life, balance, Gen Z as a generation, wherever the person stands on the political spectrum is breaking the status quo and has reimagined what life looks like across different sectors of our society and culture. And one of the biggest parts of that is the relationship to mental health and well being. And we see that regardless of where someone is on the political spectrum. And there's been a total paradigm shift in the concept of work and what it means and how central it is to one's life since COVID in part because so many people in some capacity have a flexible work environment where even if they're going into the office five days a week, they might get summer Fridays or they get certain weeks off in the summer, they can take two remote weeks or whatever it is. Like this has just changed. And that's in large part because that's what Gen Z is demanding and expecting. And I think that's reflected in the way that they talk about the role that work will play in their life as well. And I don't think it's that they don't want to work or that they don't have intentions of starting new businesses or being entrepreneurial, because there's actually data that shows that this generation is very entrepreneurial. And it's not with the intention of fame, as they said, but it's more with the intention of creating a working environment where they're not at the whim of a corporation or a boss and they're more in the driver's seat and have autonomy themselves. And so I kind of think that's a central theme of all of this, is autonomy and being in control of one's own destiny instead of letting pre written notions of what the world is supposed to look like or what your life is supposed to look like dictate it for you.
- [65:10]
Sarah Longwell
Well, my most boomer take is that you kids need to get back into the offices, learn to work, especially when you're young, before you have a family. It's good for you. But point taken. Rachel, you are excellent and thank you so much for joining us. I could talk to you for a lot longer, but I've got another podcast tape. So thanks to you Rachel and thanks to all of you for listening to another episode of the focus group podcast. We'll be back next week week. But in the meantime, remember to rate and review us on Apple podcasts, subscribe to The Bulwark on YouTube and become a Bulwark plus member at the Bulwark.com we'll see you next week guys. All right guys, now that Rachel has left the studio, I do want to share a focus groupies dream job. As I head into a busy season in 2026, I'm looking for a qualitative researcher who can come work with me here in my shop that would support the audience research we do here, including occasionally the work behind the show. If you have some experience with qualitative research and with political polling and you eat, sleep and breathe the political news and you're down to work in person in D.C. five days a week, I'd like to hear from you. You can check out our full job description@longwellpartners.com J O B.