The Focus Group Podcast – S6 Ep15: The Civilian-Military Relationship (with Mark Hertling)

Date: December 13, 2025
Host: Sarah Longwell (A)
Guest: Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Mark Hertling (B), Bulwark’s Military Contributor

Overview

This episode delves deep into the evolving relationship between the American military and civilian society, especially in the context of the politicization of the armed forces under the Trump administration. Host Sarah Longwell and guest Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling explore public misunderstandings about the military, discuss reactions to recent controversial uses of force (notably the boat strikes on Venezuela), and analyze shifting voter attitudes towards America's international role and military engagement. The conversation is anchored by focus group snippets from ordinary voters, spanning the spectrum from left-leaning to MAGA-first, offering a rare, unfiltered temperature check on the American public’s thinking.

Key Themes & Discussion Points

1. Civil-Military Disconnection & Stereotypes

• The Knowledge Gap

  • Only 1% of Americans serve today, creating a cultural gulf between military and civilian populations. (03:51)
  • Hertling: Lack of understanding includes the military’s professionalism, training, and structure. Hollywood only deepens misconceptions.

    “The kinds of training they go through, the detail and precision preparation for their various jobs, the chain of command structure, the ethos and the values they abide by, … is very different than most Americans see in any war movie.” — Hertling [03:51]

• Movies: Getting It Right and Wrong

  • Accurate: Saving Private Ryan, We Were Soldiers Once, older WWII movies.
  • Inaccurate: The Hurt Locker, for misrepresenting military culture and leadership.

    “Saving Private Ryan…really reflects the emotions of combat, how soldiers do things, how irreverent soldiers are in terms of knowing they could be facing death.” — Hertling [05:06] “The Hurt Locker…not a good reflection of what the military is... it’s the reality versus the Hollywood of it.” — Hertling [06:13]

2. The Ethics and Boundaries of Military Orders

• Obeying Orders vs. Illegal Orders

  • Swearing an oath is to defend the Constitution, not to a particular leader.
  • Military is trained to refuse illegal/unlawful orders; this is drilled from day one.

    “You don’t obey illegal or unlawful orders. Period.” — Hertling [16:14]

  • Confusion in the public about the military’s duty—some expect the military to "fix" civilian political problems, which is a misunderstanding.

    “That’s not what we do. We swear an oath to defend the Constitution... If the American public elect a new leader, we do our very best to follow the orders…” — Hertling [07:41]

• Focus Group Reactions

  • Range from suspicion (“Are Dems trying to do a coup?”) to agreement (“Obvious: don’t follow illegal orders.”)

    “It does nothing for the American people. This makes everybody confused... They’re just so desperate for that Trump Derangement Syndrome.” — Trump voter [14:55] “It was a reminder... something soldiers... are taught literally in the first week of basic training.” — Hertling [16:14]

3. The Use of Military for Domestic Law Enforcement

• National Guard Deployments in Cities

  • Divisive public reactions: Some see order and safety, others see inappropriate, dangerous militarization.
  • Focus group (majority Black, Biden-to-Trump voters): Deep discomfort with military policing civilians.

    “I didn't sign up for that. I signed up to fight enemies of the United States and my fellow Americans are not my enemy.” — Former Army Focus Group Member [22:36]

  • Calls for more (and better) trained police, not troops, to manage domestic problems.

• Hertling’s Critique

  • “The military is trained to seize terrain, take ground, and kill the enemy… That’s not what is being asked of them… They haven’t been trained as policemen.” [25:45]
  • Cost-benefit: Deploying National Guard is expensive and disruptive, and typically less effective than funding more local police.

• Young Troops & Morale

  • Sarah’s observation of young soldiers in DC—frustration at their unnecessary, performative deployment; Hertling agrees.

    “It does make me angry. ...It’s a dumb mission. They don't have to be there. This is performative politics.” — Hertling [29:30]

4. Divergent Voter Attitudes Toward Militarization

• MAGA Voters: Pro-Military Policing

  • See National Guard presence as restoring safety, often based on anecdotes rather than data.

    “Parents are able to take their kids out and play on the streets... they’ve never been able to do that…” — MAGA voter [33:07] “Trump is constantly in mind meld with a lot of people like this, where… he seems to be like, yeah, it’s because of the crime… That’s why we’re sending in the National Guard.” — Longwell [34:16]

• Hertling’s Response

  • Urges focus on local solutions, not federalized militarization. Reminds listeners that overall crime rates are declining where Guard are sent (contrary to feelings).

    “Sometimes we as an American society are leaning a little bit too much on the emotion and the opinion as opposed to the facts and logic.” — Hertling [35:19] “The people who are meant to make you feel safer are the police, not the military.” — Hertling [37:49]

5. Public Support for Extralegal Violence & the Drug Boat Strikes

• Cavalier Attitudes Toward Violence

  • Some voters support killing suspected drug traffickers as a means of deterrence—conflating military action and law enforcement.

    “When you start in the crime field, your chances of survival go down dramatically. To me it’s not a war crime. It’s another media hype term.” — MAGA voter [38:44] “It’s a loss of moral grounding to not understand that you’re killing another human being. This isn’t a war, this is a crime.” — Hertling [41:05]

• The Slippery Line Between War & Crime

  • Hertling draws a sharp line between prosecuting criminal acts and waging war: The use of deadly force must be lawful, justified, and proportionate.

    “If we as a people are so cavalier as to say we just need to kill all these people, that’s not going to solve a whole lot of problems.” — Hertling [41:28]

6. Shifting Republican Foreign Policy & Isolationism

• Past vs. Present: From Neocons to America First

  • Focus group voters express strong isolationist instincts—wars must clear a high bar before risking American lives.

    “American blood is worth a lot, in my opinion. You raise the bar pretty darn high for somebody to piss me off to go to war.” — GOP voter [48:30] “We went into places and we destabilized them when we should have left them alone. So I’m all for less involvement around the world.” — Focus group [49:06]

• Hertling’s Reflection

  • Strategy and foreign engagement are only valued in hindsight if successful (Desert Storm, WWII); today, strategic failures have fueled a loss of aspiration and trust.

    “America aspires to be good... Sometimes we get it wrong for a variety of reasons... We have a moral problem with our citizenry not understanding the implications of some of our actions.” — Hertling [51:27]

• Sarah’s Synthesis

  • America First appeals because of failures and exhaustion; “they detach any sense that America’s success for them is related to its role in the world.” [57:48]
  • Anger and withdrawal now define our civic mood, eroding our global reputation as a moral leader.

    “We have lost the opportunity to be that shining city where we show what right looks like to the rest of the world.” — Hertling [59:42]

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Only about...1% of America serves in uniform... That’s very different from the time when we had a draft army.” — Hertling [03:51]
• “Saving Private Ryan…really reflects the emotions of combat… irreverent soldiers…a very morbid sense of humor…teams that are very tight.” — Hertling [05:06]
• “That’s not what we do. We swear an oath to defend the Constitution. And if the American public elect a new leader, we do our very best to follow the orders that that new leader gives.” — Hertling [07:41]
• “You don’t obey illegal or unlawful orders. Period.” — Hertling [16:14]
• “I didn't sign up for that...my fellow Americans are not my enemy.” — Former Army Focus Group Member [22:36]
• “The military is trained to seize terrain, take ground, and kill the enemy… That’s not what is being asked of them…” — Hertling [25:45]
• “It’s a dumb mission. They don't have to be there. This is performative politics.” — Hertling [29:30]
• “American blood is worth a lot, in my opinion. You raise the bar pretty darn high for somebody to piss me off to go to war.” — GOP voter [48:30]
• “We have a moral problem with our citizenry not understanding the implications of some of our actions….We just have to relook what our values are and apply them and aspire to be good again. We're not doing that anymore.” — Hertling [51:27]
• “We have lost the opportunity to be that shining city where we show what right looks like to the rest of the world.” — Hertling [59:42]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00–02:55 | Intro & Military in the Political Spotlight
• 03:51–06:44 | Civilian-Military Gap & Hollywood’s Influence
• 10:01–16:14 | The Role of Orders, Morality, and Illegal Commands
• 22:36–25:33 | Focus Group: Military in Domestic Law Enforcement
• 29:30–30:45 | Personal Reflections: Young Soldiers Deployed Domestically
• 33:07–38:20 | MAGA Voters: National Guard as Solution to Urban Crime
• 38:44–43:39 | Voters Respond to Strikes on Boats: Attitudes toward Violence
• 45:19–47:27 | Venezuela Strikes & Western Hemisphere Doctrine
• 48:30–55:43 | Rise of Isolationism & Shifts in GOP Foreign Policy
• 59:42 | Closing Reflections: America’s Lost Aspirations

Conclusion

The episode delivers an incisive look at the growing disconnect between the military and civilian society, the political weaponization of the armed forces, and the rapid evolution of right-wing attitudes regarding the role of force both at home and abroad. Mixing expert commentary with rich (sometimes troubling) focus group insight, Sarah Longwell and General Hertling challenge listeners to rethink core assumptions about America’s defense, moral obligations, and global role—while reminding us of the stakes if we ignore the lessons of history and drift away from our democratic values.