The Focus Group Podcast

Episode: S6 Ep2 — "You Can Ramp It Up or Ramp It Down"
Host: Sarah Longwell (Publisher, The Bulwark)
Guest: Rachel Kleinfeld (Senior Fellow, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace)
Date: September 13, 2025

Brief Overview

This episode responds to the shocking murder of conservative activist Charlie Kirk during a public appearance in Utah—a political assassination that has deeply shaken public discourse. Sarah Longwell, the host, pivots from her regular format to examine how acts of political violence reverberate through the American psyche. She is joined by expert Rachel Kleinfeld for a sobering discussion about the rise, normalization, and consequences of political violence in the United States. The episode also features a tapestry of real focus group voices from across the political spectrum, revealing a pervasive climate of fear, distrust, and anxiety among ordinary Americans.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Impact and Escalation of Political Violence

• Escalation Since 2015: Rachel Kleinfeld outlines how threats of political violence have risen since 2015, and concrete incidents have accelerated, at first primarily from the right but increasingly present across the spectrum.
  • "We've had this rising number of political violence threats since 2015..." — Rachel Kleinfeld [04:08]
• Tit-for-Tat Dynamics: The episode explores the dangerous shift from unidirectional to reciprocal violence, escalating the potential for widespread, retaliatory acts.
  • "When you start seeing two sides go at it... That trend line leads to kind of tit for tat violence, but it also leads to just other kinds of violence." — Rachel Kleinfeld [04:52]
• Normalization of Violence: The frequency of mass shootings and other violent incidents is becoming a “background noise”; Americans feel dulled to tragedy, but deeply unsettled by the implications.

2. Political Leadership, Rhetoric, and Responsibility

• Failure of Leadership: Longwell and Kleinfeld criticize current political leaders—especially Donald Trump and some Republican legislators—for inflaming tensions rather than uniting the nation after violent events.
  • "These elected officials are ramping things up, including the President of the United States. What does that say about where we are?" — Sarah Longwell [06:17]
  • "You can ramp it up and you can ramp it down... when you aggrandize the person who committed it... you get more violence." — Rachel Kleinfeld [06:43]
• Danger of Aggrandizing Perpetrators: Making perpetrators of violence famous or giving them a "cause" can promote further violence.
• Importance of Unifying Messages: Kleinfeld points out that political leaders can dampen violence by unequivocally condemning it, especially within their own camps. Historically, moments like 9/11 provided a template for national unity.

3. The Role and Effect of Social Media

• Amplification & Anonymity: Social media accelerates both finger-pointing and dehumanization. Right-wing influencers immediately blamed the left, while some on the left celebrated or justified the violence.
  • "Social media turns us into this machine where everybody feels the need to like, say the thing right away." — Sarah Longwell [09:48]
  • "We are losing our humanity on the right... On the left, it's getting to be okay to say kill a 31-year-old..." — Rachel Kleinfeld [10:34]
• Dehumanization as a Precursor: Both sides’ willingness to see opponents as less-than-human feeds the danger, and the lack of civil restrain in online discourse carries over into real life.
• Government & Justice: When the state appears to fail at fair enforcement (e.g., handling January 6 participants), people lose faith in the system and more are tempted to take justice into their own hands.

4. America's Place in the "Cycle" of Political Violence

• Dangerous Crossroads: Kleinfeld describes America at a perilous point: as violence spreads and legitimacy erodes, the risk of escalation grows.
  • "It's got a momentum that's a little different... Then you get tit for tat violence. So you can imagine things speed up, it accelerates, you get more of it." — Rachel Kleinfeld [15:40]
• Loss of Restraint: If violence becomes bipartisan—a “Hatfields versus McCoys” dynamic—the lid is off the pot; escalation and copycat attacks become likely.
• Societal Desensitization: Both guest and host note a broader cultural trend: Americans are living “on edge,” desensitized to violence but increasingly fearful and distrustful.

5. Excerpts from Focus Groups: Real Voices of Fear

Progressive/Democratic-Leaning Voters

[21:35–32:06]

• Fear of attending protests due to unpredictable violence.
  • "I was a little nervous because there's a lot of crazies out there and it wouldn't take much for someone with a gun or a car just to drive through." — Focus Group Participant [22:49]
• General feeling that violence is “simmering,” making civil discourse near-impossible.
• Reference to January 6th as a watershed: what was once unimaginable is now plausible.
  • "Before that, nobody would have ever imagined that. Like, on a government building, that was unimaginable. But now that it did happen, there's definitely people out there that are like, okay, we can make this happen." — Focus Group Participant [23:32]
• People describe feeling “chilled” by violence—fear putting themselves out there.

Conservative/Republican-Leaning Voters

[33:12–37:19]

• Also sense themselves as targets; feel they must remain quiet, fear expressing views in public.
  • "That loud, raucous minority is ruling the roost primarily through intimidating the rest of us into keeping quiet." — Focus Group Participant [34:06]
  • "I have a carry permit... I always carry just in case something happens... I wouldn't have a second thought." — Focus Group Participant [34:31]
• Jewish participants describe heightened, cross-ideological fears of anti-Semitic violence post-October 7th.
• Many people of diverse backgrounds (gay, trans, women) describe feeling newly or increasingly threatened.

“Flippers”: Voters Who Switched Parties

[38:25–39:16]

• Overwhelming sense of “anger and rage” in the country; some considering emigration for safety.
  • "Even my son is like, I'd rather just live in another country... he just doesn't feel safe." — Focus Group Participant [39:05]
• Increase in non-political violence seen as linked to the national mood.

6. The Line Between Righteous Anger and Violence

• Longwell and Kleinfeld agree: it is essential to forcefully dispute ideas and rhetoric, but never to excuse or celebrate violence, even against those with abhorrent views.
  • "Be careful when you look into the abyss, that the abyss doesn't look back into you. I don't want Donald Trump to chip away at all our humanity." — Sarah Longwell [41:20 approx.]
• Civil courage means defending the rights of even your strongest opponents to be safe and heard.
  • "I'm going to still defend their right to say it and certainly defend their right to be safe while saying it." — Sarah Longwell [end]

7. How To Break the Cycle

• Kleinfeld offers a simple but challenging prescription:
  • Political leaders and communities—both geographic and ideological—must categorically reject violence.
  • The most dangerous escalation occurs when “normal” people, not just the already aggressive, begin to see violence as an acceptable form of defense.
  • "The prescription is real easy, it's the doing of it. Political leaders say no, communities say no..." — Rachel Kleinfeld [18:30]
  • Defensive violence is especially contagious; getting “average citizens” to that point unleashes true chaos.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Leadership and Messaging:

• "One thing we know about political violence is that you can ramp it up and you can ramp it down." — Rachel Kleinfeld [06:43]

On Social Media Dehumanization:

• "We are losing our humanity on the right. As you say, this pointing of a finger... On the left, it's getting to be okay to say kill a 31-year-old." — Rachel Kleinfeld [10:34]

On Impact of Fear:

• "I don't know how to describe it, but there's like a bloodlust in the air." — Focus Group Participant [24:32]

On Civil Courage:

• "I may disagree with absolutely everything that someone says, but I'm going to still defend their right to say it and certainly defend their right to be safe while saying it." — Sarah Longwell [End]

Timestamps of Key Segments

• [02:00] — Announcement of Charlie Kirk's assassination and its effect on the episode's tone
• [04:08–14:18] — Conversation with Rachel Kleinfeld: escalation, leadership, social media, comparison to other countries
• [21:35–32:06] — Focus group voices: progressive and Democratic perspectives on fear and violence
• [33:12–37:19] — Focus group voices: conservative and Republican perspectives
• [38:25–41:00] — Focus group voices from “flippers” and closing reflections on fear, leadership, and the moral necessity to draw the line at violence

Conclusion

This episode is a bracing, deeply human meditation on the corrosive effects of political violence, in rhetoric and action. Through expert analysis and diverse focus group excerpts, it exposes a bipartisan state of fear and the urgent need for moral clarity. The key takeaway: the line must always be drawn at violence, and leaders and citizens alike must deliberately choose empathy, restraint, and defense of civil society—even when passions and stakes feel existential.