S6 Ep2: You Can Ramp It Up or Ramp It Down (with Rachel Kleinfeld

Summary

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The Focus Group Podcast

Episode: S6 Ep2 — "You Can Ramp It Up or Ramp It Down"
Host: Sarah Longwell (Publisher, The Bulwark)
Guest: Rachel Kleinfeld (Senior Fellow, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace)
Date: September 13, 2025

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Brief Overview

This episode responds to the shocking murder of conservative activist Charlie Kirk during a public appearance in Utah—a political assassination that has deeply shaken public discourse. Sarah Longwell, the host, pivots from her regular format to examine how acts of political violence reverberate through the American psyche. She is joined by expert Rachel Kleinfeld for a sobering discussion about the rise, normalization, and consequences of political violence in the United States. The episode also features a tapestry of real focus group voices from across the political spectrum, revealing a pervasive climate of fear, distrust, and anxiety among ordinary Americans.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Impact and Escalation of Political Violence

• Escalation Since 2015: Rachel Kleinfeld outlines how threats of political violence have risen since 2015, and concrete incidents have accelerated, at first primarily from the right but increasingly present across the spectrum.
  • "We've had this rising number of political violence threats since 2015..." — Rachel Kleinfeld [04:08]
• Tit-for-Tat Dynamics: The episode explores the dangerous shift from unidirectional to reciprocal violence, escalating the potential for widespread, retaliatory acts.
  • "When you start seeing two sides go at it... That trend line leads to kind of tit for tat violence, but it also leads to just other kinds of violence." — Rachel Kleinfeld [04:52]
• Normalization of Violence: The frequency of mass shootings and other violent incidents is becoming a “background noise”; Americans feel dulled to tragedy, but deeply unsettled by the implications.

2. Political Leadership, Rhetoric, and Responsibility

• Failure of Leadership: Longwell and Kleinfeld criticize current political leaders—especially Donald Trump and some Republican legislators—for inflaming tensions rather than uniting the nation after violent events.
  • "These elected officials are ramping things up, including the President of the United States. What does that say about where we are?" — Sarah Longwell [06:17]
  • "You can ramp it up and you can ramp it down... when you aggrandize the person who committed it... you get more violence." — Rachel Kleinfeld [06:43]
• Danger of Aggrandizing Perpetrators: Making perpetrators of violence famous or giving them a "cause" can promote further violence.
• Importance of Unifying Messages: Kleinfeld points out that political leaders can dampen violence by unequivocally condemning it, especially within their own camps. Historically, moments like 9/11 provided a template for national unity.

3. The Role and Effect of Social Media

• Amplification & Anonymity: Social media accelerates both finger-pointing and dehumanization. Right-wing influencers immediately blamed the left, while some on the left celebrated or justified the violence.
  • "Social media turns us into this machine where everybody feels the need to like, say the thing right away." — Sarah Longwell [09:48]
  • "We are losing our humanity on the right... On the left, it's getting to be okay to say kill a 31-year-old..." — Rachel Kleinfeld [10:34]
• Dehumanization as a Precursor: Both sides’ willingness to see opponents as less-than-human feeds the danger, and the lack of civil restrain in online discourse carries over into real life.
• Government & Justice: When the state appears to fail at fair enforcement (e.g., handling January 6 participants), people lose faith in the system and more are tempted to take justice into their own hands.

4. America's Place in the "Cycle" of Political Violence

• Dangerous Crossroads: Kleinfeld describes America at a perilous point: as violence spreads and legitimacy erodes, the risk of escalation grows.
  • "It's got a momentum that's a little different... Then you get tit for tat violence. So you can imagine things speed up, it accelerates, you get more of it." — Rachel Kleinfeld [15:40]
• Loss of Restraint: If violence becomes bipartisan—a “Hatfields versus McCoys” dynamic—the lid is off the pot; escalation and copycat attacks become likely.
• Societal Desensitization: Both guest and host note a broader cultural trend: Americans are living “on edge,” desensitized to violence but increasingly fearful and distrustful.

5. Excerpts from Focus Groups: Real Voices of Fear

Progressive/Democratic-Leaning Voters

[21:35–32:06]

• Fear of attending protests due to unpredictable violence.
  • "I was a little nervous because there's a lot of crazies out there and it wouldn't take much for someone with a gun or a car just to drive through." — Focus Group Participant [22:49]
• General feeling that violence is “simmering,” making civil discourse near-impossible.
• Reference to January 6th as a watershed: what was once unimaginable is now plausible.
  • "Before that, nobody would have ever imagined that. Like, on a government building, that was unimaginable. But now that it did happen, there's definitely people out there that are like, okay, we can make this happen." — Focus Group Participant [23:32]
• People describe feeling “chilled” by violence—fear putting themselves out there.

Conservative/Republican-Leaning Voters

[33:12–37:19]

• Also sense themselves as targets; feel they must remain quiet, fear expressing views in public.
  • "That loud, raucous minority is ruling the roost primarily through intimidating the rest of us into keeping quiet." — Focus Group Participant [34:06]
  • "I have a carry permit... I always carry just in case something happens... I wouldn't have a second thought." — Focus Group Participant [34:31]
• Jewish participants describe heightened, cross-ideological fears of anti-Semitic violence post-October 7th.
• Many people of diverse backgrounds (gay, trans, women) describe feeling newly or increasingly threatened.

“Flippers”: Voters Who Switched Parties

[38:25–39:16]

• Overwhelming sense of “anger and rage” in the country; some considering emigration for safety.
  • "Even my son is like, I'd rather just live in another country... he just doesn't feel safe." — Focus Group Participant [39:05]
• Increase in non-political violence seen as linked to the national mood.

6. The Line Between Righteous Anger and Violence

• Longwell and Kleinfeld agree: it is essential to forcefully dispute ideas and rhetoric, but never to excuse or celebrate violence, even against those with abhorrent views.
  • "Be careful when you look into the abyss, that the abyss doesn't look back into you. I don't want Donald Trump to chip away at all our humanity." — Sarah Longwell [41:20 approx.]
• Civil courage means defending the rights of even your strongest opponents to be safe and heard.
  • "I'm going to still defend their right to say it and certainly defend their right to be safe while saying it." — Sarah Longwell [end]

7. How To Break the Cycle

• Kleinfeld offers a simple but challenging prescription:
  • Political leaders and communities—both geographic and ideological—must categorically reject violence.
  • The most dangerous escalation occurs when “normal” people, not just the already aggressive, begin to see violence as an acceptable form of defense.
  • "The prescription is real easy, it's the doing of it. Political leaders say no, communities say no..." — Rachel Kleinfeld [18:30]
  • Defensive violence is especially contagious; getting “average citizens” to that point unleashes true chaos.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Leadership and Messaging:

• "One thing we know about political violence is that you can ramp it up and you can ramp it down." — Rachel Kleinfeld [06:43]

On Social Media Dehumanization:

• "We are losing our humanity on the right. As you say, this pointing of a finger... On the left, it's getting to be okay to say kill a 31-year-old." — Rachel Kleinfeld [10:34]

On Impact of Fear:

• "I don't know how to describe it, but there's like a bloodlust in the air." — Focus Group Participant [24:32]

On Civil Courage:

• "I may disagree with absolutely everything that someone says, but I'm going to still defend their right to say it and certainly defend their right to be safe while saying it." — Sarah Longwell [End]

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [02:00] — Announcement of Charlie Kirk's assassination and its effect on the episode's tone
• [04:08–14:18] — Conversation with Rachel Kleinfeld: escalation, leadership, social media, comparison to other countries
• [21:35–32:06] — Focus group voices: progressive and Democratic perspectives on fear and violence
• [33:12–37:19] — Focus group voices: conservative and Republican perspectives
• [38:25–41:00] — Focus group voices from “flippers” and closing reflections on fear, leadership, and the moral necessity to draw the line at violence

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Conclusion

This episode is a bracing, deeply human meditation on the corrosive effects of political violence, in rhetoric and action. Through expert analysis and diverse focus group excerpts, it exposes a bipartisan state of fear and the urgent need for moral clarity. The key takeaway: the line must always be drawn at violence, and leaders and citizens alike must deliberately choose empathy, restraint, and defense of civil society—even when passions and stakes feel existential.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

So this one is different than a lot of the past ones. And I'm not going to be your happiest guest here because this is bad news. Basically. We've had this rising number of political violence threats since 2015. And then we started to see actual rising violence. A lot of it was coming from the right. We started to see threats from the left, you know, Brett Kavanaugh and so on. And then we've seen some that are mixed, like the Trump assassination attempt. That was from, like most political violence, a kind of deranged individual, not clearly left or right. That's very common for the first attempted assassination. But what we are seeing now is more growth from people on the other side, you know, the United Healthcare CEO and so on. And when you start seeing two sides go at it, it's different than when you just see it growing from one. And that trend line leads to kind of tit for tat violence, but it also leads to just other kinds of violence. So there was a school shooting yesterday. No one is even talking about it. But when violence gets more normalized in the public square, you see more mass shootings, school shooting. So this one was different for all those reasons. I think you're going to see a much greater growth of violence from all sides, and there's no winners here.

[A]

One of the things that is striking to me today, it's all still pretty fresh, so we're all sort of processing it. But, like, right now, we're living in a world of the hot takes and the reactions. But Donald Trump addressed the nation from the Oval Office and blamed it on Democrats and their toxic rhetoric and talked about in his own way, putting a stop to it. Not in a way that was sort of in a uniting kind of way, but in a we're going to hunt these people down kind of way. And it not even being clear at all who these people are. We've had Nancy Mace, lots of Republican legislators today going out and saying the left did this. This is because of the left's rhetoric that is so different from the way elected officials in the United States have approached political violence in the past. You know, whether it's Gabby Giffords or school shooting, like typically these things tend to unite people, or at least our elected officials understand they need to appeal to people's better angels. It's a time to tamp things down. But these elected officials are ramping things up, including the President, United States. What does that say about where we are?

[B]

You know, there's a lot of tragedies when a 31 year old father of two is, is murdered. But one of the big tragedies is seeing how it's being handled by politicians like Trump. Because one thing we know about political violence is that you can ramp it up and you can ramp it down and you ramp it up when you aggrandize the person who committed it. You know, like Rittenhouse, telling someone that they're playing to an audience who likes them is a great way to get more violence. Because a lot of these folks who commit the violence are a little deranged, a little aggressive, but a lot of what they're looking for is to be famous. They want to be Luke Skywalker. They want to be important.

[A]

Important.

[B]

And so when you give them that, you get more. And we also know that when political leaders say this is not acceptable, it's not okay. You know, I don't know if you remember after 9, 11, there's a whole move from in the military to call Al Qaeda losers. When you tell people that this is a loser act, it goes down. It has to be from your own side that you're saying that. And so what we really need is politicians, both sides, to say, absolutely not. Not on my watch, not in my city, not in my house. You know, this is not something I allow in my party. And you see that a little. Barack Obama came out and said that. There are other leaders who have come out and said that kind of thing. That's been helpful, but sure, not from everybody. The other thing you need to hear is people from that ideological side in general saying, this isn't cool. We don't accept this. When you hear a lot of people lauding it again, somebody wants to be Luke Skywalker. So the social media is not helpful either.

[A]

Well, let's talk about the social media because that's the part that kind of gets me just really sick to my stomach is what I'm sort of watching unfold. And I felt this way after the United Healthcare CEO was shot. And there's like two things happening online right now. So there's the right wing influencers and politicians in the President United States that are automatically placing blame on the left in a very like, you did this, you did this. Democrats did this. We need to crack down on Democrats. Like you're seeing calls to censor Democrats or, you know, deport people who have criticized Charlie Kirk, but who are here from other countries. Just really wild stuff from people who, you know, claim to be pro free speech, but they're basically saying going to use this like this emergency isn't going to go unutilized by us to increase this sort of authoritarian crackdown and to diminish our political opponents and cast them as evil. On the flip side, I'm seeing a lot of sort of good riddance to bad rubbish. Charlie Kirk takes not from Democratic politicians. And this is actually an important distinction, I think, not from a lot of sort of the leading voices in either the Democratic Party or even sort of Democratic war. Certainly the mainstream media or people who are on sort of the cable networks are for the most part acting with, I think, real kindness. Everybody is recognizing this was a human being who had a family, was a young man. But there is like a fair amount of just like takes on social media that are like, let me show you all of the horrible things that he said. Here's why he was a terrible person. I did not agree with anything Charlie Kirk said and I have lots of strong feelings about many of the things that he said. But I can kind of wait on some of that. I think in a moment when like his children have just lost their father and I guess you'd love to see some of that. But social media turns us into this machine where everybody feels the need to like, say the thing right away. And so, like, it's easy to blame social media.

[B]

People are writing this stuff. It's not just the algorithm. You know, some of it might be bots writing it for other bots, but we are losing our humanity on the right. As you say, this pointing of a finger. This is Democrats. It's not Democrats. Everything we know about political violence is that it's A far left to actually also dislike Democrats that are supportive of political violence on the left. It's a very clear trend of this kind of extra far left that likes political violence. You saw them in the 60s and 70s too, this pointing a finger, extraordinarily unhelpful. And as you're saying, this support for the murder, extremely dehumanizing. And one thing we know about political violence is that it's much easier to commit when you dehumanize the other side, when you treat the other side like a symbol, like a cockroach, like an animal. You see this go up and we're seeing that. And sure, some of it might be the anonymity of social media lets people kind of do that. And the algorithm definitely rewards extremism. But people are writing this stuff because in their social media it's okay on the right to point a finger and say there's Democrats and we're going to go to war with your city and we're going to go go after you. And on the left, it's getting to be okay to say kill a 31 year old. And one of the reasons that this is happening, by the way, is that the government is not doing what the government is supposed to do. You see political violence rise like this when the government doesn't treat people equally in law enforcement. So when you Release folks on January 6th who, who committed those heinous crimes, the other side says, well, there's not going to be equal justice. We have to take justice into our own hands. We see that in every country that has political violence, when the state doesn't seem to be equal, the opposition says, well, we got to take it into our own hands. Nonviolent kinds of forms of activity are being discredited. This is Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. You know, you know, when you kill Martin Luther King Jr. You get Malcolm X. And so we're seeing the same kind of trend lines and that extremism, we have to own it. We can't blame it all on the social media.

[A]

Okay, I take that point 100% like these are people behind these sentiments. And I think it says something about where we are as a country that people feel comfortable talking like this and that they don't sort of abide by the norms of civility and decency that would just dictate, hey, in the direct aftermath of something like this, can you wait to find out what happened and just express sympathy for the loss of life?

[C]

Greetings, naturopathy. Dr. Dennis Black here, founder of Rough Greens. And if Only dogs could talk. I think a lot of them would say, hey, thanks for the love, but this food, it's not working for me. The truth is, they'd be right. Because most dog food, wet or dry, is cooked at such high temperatures that every live nutrient in it is destroyed. And what you're left with is dead food bulked up with fillers and sprayed with artificial flavors. That's not what dogs need. But when you add back in the live vitamins, omega oils and antioxidants are in rough greens, your dog would say something different. Like, they'd say, wow, this is delicious. Or sluggish. Dogs might say, hey, let's go for a walk. Older dogs might say, I feel like a puppy again. It's not magic, it's biology. Don't just imagine it. See it in your dog. I'll send you a free Jumpstart trial bag for your dog. You just cover the shipping. Go to ruffgreens.com use discount code talk. That's Ruff Greens discount code talk. If your dog could only talk, they'd say, thank you.

[A]

Since you study violence in other countries extensively, where is America now? Is there like a life cycle of political violence? Like, ways that it ebbs and flows and, like, where are we in this cycle?

[B]

So that's why I started off by saying I was a bad news guest. We're not in a good place in this cycle. So I've been watching the growth of political violence In America since 2015, the latest growth, because we have a lot of history of this, of course. You know, the killing of civil rights workers, and then the 60s and 70s and the militias. And so this is not our first rodeo, but it's been rising pretty quickly since 2015. And I'd been sort of holding my breath, you know, can it stay mostly to one side? Not entirely, but when it's mostly on one side and it's not the government, it's not the state, you kind of have a lid on the pot. That's what it looked like when it was militias and skinheads in the 80s and early 90s. Mostly on one side, there's a lid on the pot when it spreads to the other side, which started with, like, the Tesla dealership buyers, the United Health CEO, you know, the. The threat against Brett Kavanaugh to some extent, although that one is. Was a little different because it was an older man. Most political violence is young people that has a kind of trend line of its own. It's got a momentum that's a little different as it Starts spreading to the other side, then you get tit for tat violence. So you can imagine things speed up, it accelerates, you get more of it. When the state doesn't kind of keep the lid on the pot, when the state stops treating people equally and says, we're going to let off some people who are violent, we're going to go after other people who are violent, then you discredit all of the voices that are saying, don't use violence. There's other ways to solve these problems. And what you tend to get are these violent fringes that get more credibility. And I think that is where we are now. And the majority of Americans still condemn political violence. Most people do. But political violence is mostly a young people's activity Everywhere in the world. Violence is mostly men under 25, 28 ish. And so when they start normalizing violence, what you get is kind of a back and forth between extremes. And I think we're about to see that.

[A]

I'm not exactly pushing back, but I guess that presupposes a little bit that the attack on Charlie Kirk is from the left.

[B]

No, I mean, I sure hope that it was not from the left. That would be better, but it doesn't matter because the first Trump assassination also was not from the left. It was just a guy who was also had Biden on his target list. And it's been made in the ideology of this far right that you're seeing online. It's part of a line. Brett Kavanaugh, Trump assassination, now Charlie Kirk. It doesn't matter that it wasn't from the left because that part has been erased in the common litany of grievances. And so, you know, I hope this wasn't from the left for all sorts of good reasons, but I'm not sure it'll make that much of a difference.

[A]

Can you tell me why you say that? I think I'm hearing you right, that you say that not as a person who is, oh, well, I'm from the left and I don't want it to be one of my people. You're saying it as it's better to contain it on one side. Like if it exists on one side, it's easier to contain than if you do actually have now a burgeoning problem on the left where you're getting into a Hatfields versus McCoy.

[B]

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, it's just about the momentum of violence. Right. If one side keeps punching, that's bad. That's really bad. But it's much worse when one side punches the Other punches back that that causes an escalation. And when the government isn't saying stop it and go to your corners, but is favoring one side, you can imagine the other side says, okay, well then I'll get my big brother. The way violence works is if they don't trust a referee, you get people taking it into their own hands. And I think that's where the country is. And that trend line just tends to accelerate things quite a bit. And it also, by the way, I think I mentioned it accelerates non political violence too. You just start seeing copycats of various sorts.

[A]

Last question. How do you get out of something like this? Like when people have gotten out of these cycles of violence, what do they do?

[B]

I mean, the prescription is real easy. It's the doing of it. Political leaders say no, communities say no. Geographic communities and then communities of ideology say no. Most violence is committed by people who are aggressive, have impulse disorders, maybe they're drinking on drugs, they're having mental disturbances, mostly young men. That's who commits most violence of all sorts in the world. When they start targeting political figures, it's because they're hearing more about those political figures. Usually they target people in their own lives, but when they hear about the political figures, you're a little bit disturbed, you're aggressive. Okay, maybe I'll go after Nancy Pelosi's husband or Trump. When it gets normalized and people feel like you'll be appreciated for targeting people, then you get an increase, right? The people who might have targeted political figures, plus the ones who used to target their family members or neighbors. But normal people who don't usually commit violence can get into committing violence if they think they're defending something that they're allowed to use violence for. Most people don't commit violence. But you'll commit violence to save a kid. You'll commit violence in a revolution that is is appreciated by your community, like the American Revolution. There are certain times when it's okay for normal people to commit violence. In any society, defensive violence is much easier to get regular people to commit. So when you get to that point, suddenly the lid's off. You get much more because you're not talking about these people who are aggressive and have impulse disorders. You're talking about normal people who are defending something. Their tribe, their group, their kids. I think we're very soon going to see that that's the accelerator.

[A]

I mean, that's always the thing, I think about January 6th is that those people thought they were the good guys, right? They thought they were defending a stolen election. All right, Rachel Kleinfeld, thanks so much for coming by and talking to us a little bit about this. Really appreciate it.

[C]

Greetings, naturopathy. Dr. Dennis Black here, founder of Rough Greens. And if only dogs could talk, I think a lot of them would say, hey, thanks for the love, but this food, it's not working for me. The truth is they'd be right. Because most dog food, wet or dry, is cooked at such high temperatures that every live nutrient in it is destroyed. And what you're left with is dead food bulked up with fillers and sprayed with artificial flavors. That's not what dogs need. But when you add back in the live vitamins, omega oils and antioxidants are in Rough Greens, your dog would say something different. Like they'd say, wow, this is delicious. Or sluggish dogs might say, hey, let's go for a walk. Older dogs might say, I feel like a puppy again. It's not magic, it's biology. Don't just imagine it. See it in your dog. I'll send you a free Jumpstart trial bag for your dog. You just cover the shipping. Go to ruffgreens.com use discount code talk. That's Ruff Greens discount code talk. If your dog could only talk, they'd say, thank you.

[A]

All right, so I want to get to some of the sound, and one point I want to make up front is that large portions of the sound you're about to hear are pegged to various instances of political violence in the last few years, which I will point out as we go. So I want to start by listening to progressive and Democratic leaning participants from the last few years. Now, the first two bits of sound were from people who attended the no Kings protest this past summer, which you'll remember took place in the backdrop of the assassination of Melissa Hortman, that state representative I mentioned at the top in Minnesota. Let's listen. Well, this was the first protest that I've gone to and actually I really wasn't planning on going, but I had a friend with me and so let's check it out. I was a little nervous because there's a lot of crazies out there and it wouldn't take much for someone with a gun or a car just to drive through. You just don't know. My concern would be that a nut job like the guy in Minneapolis or a proud boy would think nothing better than to go to a big city with 25,000 people and, you know, drive a car through or take an incendiary.

[C]

Device to be a minute man to quell our dissatisfaction.

[A]

I think there just seems to be.

[C]

A violence simmering that we're all used to.

[A]

Like the frog in the boiling water said, you know, civil war seems sooner rather than later. It's getting very difficult to talk to people who do not agree with you without getting offensive or activating their defenses. But I can't see it getting to that point. I mean, the way that we're trending with violence. Look what happened with the riot in January. Like, before that, nobody would have ever imagined that. Like, on a government building, that was unimaginable. But now that it did happen, there's definitely people out there that are like, okay, we can make this happen. So it is scary to think about. Like, I don't hope for it and would never wish on it, but it's scary. And I think that is a possibility. I mean, there's such extreme reactions now.

[B]

To the most things.

[A]

Yeah. Like even, like wearing masks on a.

[B]

Plane, even though, you know you're supposed to wear a mask on the plane, and it leads to all this violence.

[A]

And so it's a scary position to be in. So that's why you don't want to say anything, because you're too scared of what they might do. Like she said, they might have a gun. You don't say the least little thing, and people will just. It's like it's a fuse snap for.

[B]

The least little thing.

[A]

So you just don't know. You. You have to protect yourself, too. And I also feel like there's, like. I don't know how to describe it, but there's like, a bloodlust in the air. Like, a lot of people want to air out a lot of their grievances, and they feel like they might have permission to do so more so than they did in the past. So, you know, it's got me thinking about, you know, what's my future in the United States, to be honest? Well, the whole revolution in Iran started with basically taking over the government, a coup. So, like, the whole January thing happened. I was extremely scared, and everybody was like, everything's going to be fine. Nobody took it too seriously. I was terrified. I was like, guys, I grew up in a country where this literally happened, so let's just take some of these and dig into them. First of all, what I hear a lot of and what was in some of these clips of sound are people who feel chilled by the political violence. Right. They're kind of afraid to go to a protest or they're worried about what might happen. Things that I do agree. I mean, people can say it's privilege or what have you, but I think when it comes to political violence, 15 years ago, other than something like 9, 11, you know, like, I remember when Reagan, there was the assassination attempt on him, and obviously I watched all of the things that happened in the 60s. That was all before I was born. Not the Reagan stuff, but I was very, very little. I mean, it's not like we didn't have contentious issues. I mean, I spent much of my 20s and early 30s doing the work around gay marriage and repeal of Don't Ask, don't Tell. People had strong feelings about this. There were protesters that showed up on all sides of these things. I remember going to lots of pride parades and there being angry protesters there with, you know, nasty signs. But, like, I don't know, people would talk to each other and people would go and they would just like, ignore the people with the signs or they would wave to them. But I can't remember thinking during any of those times, like, man, I wonder if we're going to get shot for doing this, because that just didn't feel like a thing that happened in America. And I hear a lot more of expressions of that just sort of base level of fear about putting yourself out there now. And I think, obviously, I have a point of view on how much Donald Trump's rhetoric of retribution, his celebration of people who have committed violence for his side. And I think that that has become a pretty strange feature of our politics where we do celebrate people who do horrible things. Like, you know, I was always more of a Republican, and I remember like PETA and sort of left wing activism. You know, I was always like, you don't celebrate these people. And sometimes people did. And I thought that was insane. And I think it's insane now to see people celebrating people who commit violence, even if it's in a way that, you know, you could say is justified. Being justified is different from celebrating people. And so I do think it hits this sense that people have this fear now, both that Donald Trump has whipped people up to such a degree that they could experience political violence just by going out and protesting, but also that people feel, this is something I hear a lot. You know, they just feel like the world's gotten crazier and the idea that the smallest thing could set people off. Right. And I know that Rachel said social media, that's not the culprit. And I get that. I do think there's something warped, though, that's Happening to us where my algorithm. I see all kinds of, like, insane behavior on airplanes now that maybe before we had phones, this was happening, but it doesn't feel like it. It feels like people are on kind of a hair trigger. And so you see these things of people getting in a fight and getting kicked off an airplane, just behaving like children, right? There is a way in which their feelings are sitting too close to the surface and we forget how to kind of navigate things like normal, responsible adults. And one of the clips was from somebody who talked about wearing a mask on a plane. That was from 2022, when Tucker Carlson was encouraging people, if they saw somebody who was masked or who was masking their kid, to go up to them and accuse them of child abuse or tell them that it was insane of them to still be masking. And this is another one where it's like, regardless of how you felt about masks and their relative utility or lack thereof, or. Or the way in which that eventually they became polarized along political lines, just regardless of all that, like, why would you go up to someone and tell them whether or not they should have a mask on? Like, why would you get in someone's face about that? Why would you accuse them of child abuse about something that is clearly a decision that parents and their kids can make together. This idea, too, I think encouraging people to kind of get up in each other's grill is a strange thing that we're seeing more and more of. There's also somebody in here was referencing January 6th, which I think unsettled a lot of people, both that it could happen, that you could have people attack the Capitol, that they could violently beat up cops. And I think we went through a more normal phase in the immediate aftermath where it did shock the conscience, shock the body politic, that shock wore off and it went from, yes, we all agree this was bad, to, well, I wouldn't have handled it that way, or it was a bad day. But I think people are just using it to make Trump look bad. Wasn't Trump's fault. They're being too hard on people, and people were prosecuted for their actions that day. Of course, Donald Trump pardoned them the second he was back in power. And. And I think that this idea that political violence, if you do it in service of Donald Trump or other Republicans, you know, you can get away with it, I do think has people on the left on edge in a way that is understandable. When Donald Trump says he's going to be retribution and is trying to use the power of the state in all kinds of ways. And we have ice in the streets with masks that. Where you can't see their faces while they're sort of grabbing the Uber eats guy off of a moped and throwing him to the ground. You know, people are going to be on edge and fearful. And I think the more afraid people are, the more that leads to additional political violence or other kinds of violence, just because people kind of live very much on edge. And that's how a lot of the voters sound in the focus groups, just on edge. And awareness that we're being desensitized to the violence, fear that it can be weaponized against them, Fear that people are a little crazy. You know, this, this line. But I also feel like there's. I don't know how to describe it, but there's like a bloodlust in the air. And that was in February of 2024. And we basically went and grabbed the sound that was very easy to sort of understand and easy to contextualize. But it's woven through all kinds of statements that people make when they're talking about things they sort of take for granted now, the sense that violence in the political context is something that we live with.

[C]

Greetings, naturopathy. Dr. Dennis Black here, founder of Rough Greens. And if only dogs could talk. I think a lot of them would say, hey, thanks for the love, but this food, it's not working for me. The truth is, they'd be right. Because most dog food, wet or dry, is cooked at such high temperatures that every live nutrient in it is destroyed. And what you're left with is dead food bulked up with fillers and sprayed with artificial flavors. That's not what dogs need. But when you add back in the live vitamins, omega oils and antioxidants are in rough Greens. Your dog would say something different. Like they'd say, wow, this is delicious. Or sluggish dogs might say, hey, let's go for a walk. Older dogs might say, I feel like a puppy again. It's not magic, it's biology. Don't just imagine it. See it in your dog. I'll send you a free Jumpstart trial bag for your dog. You just cover the shipping. Go to ruffgreens.com use discount code talk. That's Ruff Greens discount code talk. If your dog could only talk, they'd say, thank you.

[A]

All right, I want to move on to more conservative leaning voters and listen to how they talk about it. Because the sort of fear of political violence, the sense that your side is being sort of more targeted than the other side is a bipartisan feeling. And the idea that the atmosphere is too hot, that it's not good for us, I think is a bipartisan feeling among voters. So let's listen to how these Republicans talked about political violence. We are too divided. And those that are running the debate in the public forum are not the majority. I think a couple other folks have expressed that opinion.

[C]

But it's that silent majority that we heard about a generation or two back.

[A]

That aren't engaging and aren't being involved. And that loud, raucous minority is ruling.

[C]

The roost primarily through intimidating the rest.

[A]

Of us into keeping quiet. I think things are getting more violent in general. I've seen such a change since. I think it's been ever since COVID shutdowns and that whole thing. It seems like people are getting meaner. Yeah.

[B]

And it's scary.

[A]

I didn't really talk that much before, but I mean, I keep so to myself right now that it's mind boggling that, like, I don't want to even assert any kind of random statement that might cause someone to go ballistic. I mean, I have a carry permit, thank God I've never had to use it. But I always carry just in case something happens, somebody's attacking me and it's a young person or something. I wouldn't have a second thought. Not have a second thought. So those last two comments were from Jewish people that we Talked to after October 7th. And people would say, well, I'm Jewish and, you know, I feel deeply under threat now. I feel like anti Semitism is ramping up. And so that has been thematically something that I would say I've seen from Jews who are on the left and on the right who talk a lot about the increased sense of violence around anti Semitism. And it's almost like for a lot of different types of people, there have been events over the last decade that have heightened their sense specifically related to who they are. Right. I think trans people will tell you they feel specifically under threat. I hear from gay people who feel like America had come to terms with gay people that it's ramping back up that sense that you're under threat if you're a gay person. Women talk about it all the time, just their fear as women. And so this was in what Rachel was saying. But to me, one of the big takeaways is how much fear. Right. This guy, he's talking about because he's afraid. He carries a gun. It's the fear oftentimes that begets more violence and fear can also really cloud sometimes your sense of proportion. So, for example, just listening to folks on the right right now talk about how, like, they're under siege and there's a. A war in this moment where we still don't even know what the motivations were for the shooter, what they're saying is, hey, they came for Charlie Kirk because Charlie Kirk was saying things that I say or that I think. And so that means they can come for me. And that's one of the reasons I think it's so important you don't have to deny the way that you feel about the opinions that Charlie Kirk had. I do think it's very important to affirm the idea that nobody should be shot for having the opinions that Charlie Kirk had, because that fear is a driver toward more violence.

[C]

Greetings, naturopathy. Dr. Dennis Black here, founder of Rough Greens. And if only dogs could talk, I think a lot of them would say, hey, thanks for the love, but this food, it's not working for me. The truth is they'd be right, because most dog food, wet or dry, is cooked at such high temperatures that every live nutrient in it is destroyed. And what you're left with is dead food bulked up with fillers and sprayed with artificial flavors. That's not what dogs need. But when you add back in the live vitamins, omega oils and antioxidants are in Rough Greens, your dog would say something different. Like, they'd say, wow, this is delicious. Or sluggish dogs might say, hey, let's go for a walk. Older dogs might say, I feel like a puppy again. It's not magic, it's biology. Don't just imagine it. See it in your dog. I'll send you a free Jumpstart trial bag for your dog. You just cover the shipping. Go to roughgreens.com use discount code talk. That's Ruff Greens discount code talk. If your dog could only talk, they'd say, thank you.

[A]

Let's move on. These next bits of sound were from our flippers who we talk to. A lot of These were Trump 2016, Biden 2020 voters throughout 2024. Let's listen to them. I'm a sensitive person, and I just noticed, like, there's an intensity on just the political climate, but just people in.

[B]

General coming out of the pandemic.

[A]

And there's just this. This anger and this upset and rage really, at, you know, things that people can't control. And there's a lot of blaming and a lot of Like, a lot of.

[B]

Fear and a lot of, like, feeling helpless.

[A]

It's just a scary time right now. Even my son is like, I'd rather just live in another country. Like, he just doesn't feel safe and raising his family here. And that's kind of scary that people.

[B]

Are going to leave our country because.

[A]

They don't want to be here. I never, ever thought that I would see a day in my lifetime where I kind of wondered, like, are we going to have a civil war of some type in our country again? Or, you know, have to overthrow our government? And it does scare me. I know most of my peers, people that we've talked to. My husband's a teacher as well. So many of our friends, people keep talking about civil war in America, and that's where they all think this is going. So all but one of those quotes came right after the assassination attempt on Donald Trump last year. There was maybe less sense of people saying, like, yeah, you get what you deserve. Again, I think that people, especially people in positions of power and influence, were quick to say things like this shouldn't happen, that political violence has no place. Then Donald Trump referenced that shooting in what I thought was a. A really startling address in which he pointed the finger directly at the left in a. You did this. Your rhetoric, you calling people Nazis. That's the end of the sound that I have. But I guess there was something I wanted to say. The reason I kind of scrapped our original plan. It's because I quit my job to go fight Donald Trump because I think he is a threat to America. And one of the things that I think he has done is pretty consistently is use absolutely not just irresponsible, but often unhinged rhetoric about other Americans, whether it is making fun of disabled people or saying immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country. I mean, you know, for Donald Trump to be somebody who points the finger at other people over rhetoric, I mean, it's almost too ridiculous to take seriously. But of course. But of course, many people will take it seriously. And I do think in situations like this, you know, people want to blame someone, and there's a little bit of a. Of a catch 22. And this is the part I've been thinking about a lot, where on one hand, you do want to point out that Donald Trump uses extreme rhetoric all the time, that nobody has done more to inflame the negative passions of Americans than Donald Trump, and yet you, of course, do not want him to be shot at. You don't want anyone to be shot at. And I know that some people on social media disagree because they'll say, just the way that Don Jr. Mocked Paul Pelosi is that people now have dehumanized their political opponents to such a degree that they're okay if something horrible befalls them. And the problem is, is that Donald Trump, you know, he says, well, they call us Nazis. I tend to be pretty circumspect about the word Nazi, but I do think that Donald Trump has been moving us toward a much more authoritarian place. I do think he is dangerous. And I think he's dangerous because he nurtures violence in people. And one of the things I see from Democrats is just sort of a desperate attempt to fight back. And I know when I listen to Democratic voters talk about fighting back, what they mean is, win elections, be more aggressive. Don't just sit back like a deer in headlights and let these guys steamroll you. And you don't have to like anything Charlie Kirk said, you can condemn it all. I always think about Nietzsche where he said, you know, be careful when you look into the abyss, that the abyss doesn't look back into you. I don't want Donald Trump to chip away at all of our humanity. We have to do the work of maintaining our humanity in the face of this. And that doesn't mean that we don't call it like we see it, that we don't tell the truth about how awful Many of the things people said, Donald Trump, Stephen Miller, many people in right wing influencer circles, I think people are wrestling with what is kind of legitimate political discourse. We've sort of passed the point where we're arguing over what the marginal tax rate should be when the stakes feel existential and when the stakes, in fact are very high. What does the future of the country look like? You want to take these things head on, but I think that every single one of us should be very clear about where the lines are. And the line stops at violence. It always stops at violence. Like, be mad. Go to the streets, Protest, fight. Tell your story on social media, flood the zone back, call out their lies, be clear, be morally clear, call out ideas that are bad. And frankly, I don't think that there's anything wrong with acknowledging how toxic some of the ideas are that you want to fight back. Like you could say how toxic they are, but don't ever celebrate violence. For all of us to be safe, giving our opinions, for all of us to be safe, doing our jobs, as polarized as we are, there's just always going to be somebody out there who Hates you, hates your side, hates the things that you stand for. And the sum total of things like this happening are to make us feel more scared, less able to engage in political discourse, less able to fight for the things that we believe in. Right. I want to be able to say the things that I believe to be true and fight for the things that I believe in and not be afraid of being shot. And I want that for the people who want to go to these protests. I want that for the people on the right who are afraid of Palestinian protesters, for the Jewish kids who were aggressively pursued by some of the protesters on college campuses. We've got to find lines that we live behind on this, even when the stakes feel existential, even when you feel and are sure that you are morally in the right. I want people to be able to fight hard for the things that they believe in, but we have to be able to condemn political violence and violence in general. The thing that Rachel said, just, violence begets more violence. It means more school shootings, more shootings in your grocery store. Like, we don't want to live like this. I don't want to live like this. So, yeah, I guess that's just a thing I wanted to say, and I wanted to bring you some of the voices of people who are not experiencing all this by, you know, banging out angry screeds online. Just regular people from all sides of the political aisle who feel afraid and feel like they could be targeted and who are worried about how damaged we all are and how much damage we're doing to each other. And I think that the best thing we can do is demand better of our political leaders and then set an example ourselves, even when it's hard. I may disagree with absolutely everything that someone says, but I'm going to still defend their right to say it and certainly defend their right to be safe while saying it. And I do think that's where I hope other people will find themselves. So with that, I want to thank everyone for listening to an unconventional focus group podcast. At the end of the focus groups, whenever we're talking to the people who had just, you know, sat with us for an hour or two, we always tell them to be well in the interesting times that we live in, and I hope that all of you do the same. Thanks, guys. We will be back next week.