← The Focus Group Podcast
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- [00:00]
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- [01:07]
Sarah Longwell
Hello everyone and welcome to the focus group podcast. I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark and for the last couple of weeks we've been checking in on swing voters, typically our Biden to Trump voters in 2024. And this week I want to focus on the few future of the right. We're gonna see how people are thinking about some of the front runners for the 2028 presidential election because it's never too early for sickos like us. And get an update from Gen Z Trump voters now. I think there's like an interesting schism between the MAGA establishment which are the people who will put on the red hat uncritically. And a lot of them used to be just like regular GOP types. They like establishment, whatever that looks like. And then the other side is kind of the America first wing in the party. So think about that as your Marjorie Taylor Greens, maybe your Tucker Carlson. And there's overlap. Obviously these are not two distinct circles, but I am starting to see especially among the influencer types, kind of a shift where you could break them up and put them in either category. So my guest today is the Bulwarks in house right wing fever swamp correspondent Will Sommer, author of the excellent False Flag newsletter. Will, thanks for being here.
- [02:25]
Will Sommer
Hey, thanks for having me.
- [02:26]
Sarah Longwell
You look great, man. Your hair looks great. You're just looking good. You look fresh, ready to go.
- [02:32]
Will Sommer
Well, thank you. Ewan's got a haircut, kind of a new look and you know, I'm Working on the same. You inspired me.
- [02:37]
Sarah Longwell
Oh, great, great. Okay. Well, you know, obviously I listen to you and read you and see all of your stuff. And so how do you see the divisions on the right evolving over the last year? I mean, there's been quite a bit of a crack up. Do you believe that the distinction I'm making of America first versus the MAGA establishment makes some sense, or would you have a different way of putting them in buckets?
- [03:00]
Will Sommer
I think that's a reasonable distinction. I mean, I think we're seeing a lot of sort of pivot points or real kind of crack up issues. Obviously the Epstein files would be a big one. The idea that Trump is kind of focused on these sort of foreign policy misadventures, whether that's bombing Iran or threatening Greenland. I mean, I think we're seeing these polls that say, like, why are we wasting time on this, even among Republicans? And I would also add that I think obviously Israel is a big issue here and related to that, I think the Charlie Kirk assassination created a rift on the right and sort of a power vacuum for a lot of these influencers to try to stake out new positions, kind of try to claim that territory. So I think it's a time of sort of tumult on the right, certainly in the right wing media level. But I think Trump himself is just seen as like less relevant than he was in terms of what the direction of the party is going to be in a few years.
- [03:50]
Sarah Longwell
Is it just the vacuum that Charlie Kirk left or is it also people kind of jockeying for like Megyn Kelly the other day, she's just like, yeah, man, we need Greenland now. Megyn Kelly, I don't listen to her show every day, but I'm quite certain she has never before been like, do you know what we really need? Do you know what's super important is Greenland. The influencers who've basically built a brand out of, hey, the mainstream media is going to tell you all the reasons why the things that Donald Trump is saying are crazy and wrong. And I'm here to tell you, while they are right and good, and there has been a market for that, a real market for that. But I think a lot about maybe what is the potential podcast to politician pipeline that I would say Megyn Kelly's in. We saw that with Dan Bongino. We certainly see a lot of the people who've become sort of right wing celebrities go on for roles in the Trump administration. But I guess what I'm asking is like, is it just about Charlie Kirk's vacuum? Or is it, hey, I want to be the thought leader of the post Trump gop? Like, I want to be here to wield my audience. Like, how do you see that playing out?
- [04:55]
Will Sommer
I think there is this kind of, like, driftlessness right now with the Trump agenda. I mean, I think there are things that are widely popular on the right, like terrorizing Minneapolis, sending ICE agents into Minneapolis. But on the other hand, I think that there is this kind of like, what are we here for? They, I mean, they aren't seeing the prosecutions of the deep state or the Clintons that they wanted, for example. There's this sense, I think, of that a lot of this sort of the Trump vision has not been fulfilled. And so you have an opening for people to say, well, this is what the right is about. This is what the post Trump universe, what 2028 is going to be about. And I think you have people like, certainly Nick Fuentes, the white nationalist podcaster, people like Megyn Kelly. I mean, certainly Candace Owens, who's kind of staking out this crazy world all her own, where, you know, the top issue is whether Brigitte Macron is trans. I think there's this ideological opening in terms of, you know, what. What people can use to attract an audience, and it's a lot broader. On the other hand, as you said, I do think there is still a faction that is. That just has to parrot whatever Trump says. And Megyn Kelly, I think, is sort of uniquely, sort of directionless in that way. I mean, she's very, I think, sort of terrified of alienating a lot of different groups.
- [05:59]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, that's interesting. Okay, I want to start by spending a bit of time on the MAGA establishment. And I would call both J.D. vance and Marco Rubio are interesting figures in the sort of MAGA establishment, because these are, again, these are the people who are like, whatever Trump says goes, and he is the party. Marco Rubio, though, is almost like the patron saint, because Marco Rubio, then, and JD Vance are also quite different from one another, and yet they still kind of occupy this space. But JD Vance is one who, I think, tries to straddle both worlds in a way that Rubio is pretty firmly MAGA establishment. So let's listen to how a couple of recent groups of Biden to Trump voters talked about Vance with a sidebar about Rubio at the end.
- [06:45]
Will Sommer
Let's listen.
- [06:47]
Sarah Longwell
It's just something about him. I don't know, Like, I have, like, a gut feeling, like, just, like, some of just, like, his things that he talks about and how he approaches people.
- [06:55]
Will Sommer
And, like, some of his demeanor and things like that.
- [06:57]
Sarah Longwell
It just kind of. And I shouldn't judge a book by its character, I guess. Like, I don't know, judge a book by its cover or whatever, but I just kind of like, it's one of those, like, feelings.
- [07:06]
Will Sommer
Like, I don't know.
- [07:08]
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So that's why I'm kind of like.
- [07:09]
Sarah Longwell
I don't really. No, I guess I wouldn't base it on what I know right now to say if I would or wouldn't.
- [07:16]
Will Sommer
I would have to, like, dig a.
- [07:17]
Sarah Longwell
Little deeper and find out a little more about him.
- [07:20]
Rocket Money Advertiser
There's something that I can't put my finger on, but he's, like, a little.
- [07:23]
Sarah Longwell
Bit weird and maybe boring or something.
- [07:25]
Rocket Money Advertiser
But I feel like, because he is.
- [07:29]
Sarah Longwell
So close to Trump, that they have.
- [07:31]
Rocket Money Advertiser
Like, good ideals, and I would probably follow along with that and just hope that his weirdness went away.
- [07:38]
Sarah Longwell
I kind of got uncomfortable when he.
- [07:40]
Will Sommer
The way he went at, you know.
- [07:41]
Sarah Longwell
When they brought that Ukrainian president over, I felt like they ambushed him. I think he's really smart. Like, when against that debate against the other, you know, VP candidate, he kicked his ass, but I think he's smart. But smart can scare me, you know, if the intention's not right. Like, none of the men agree with that at all. Like, y' all don't. He doesn't give y' all the heebie jeebies at all.
- [08:00]
Will Sommer
My wife and I are going through ivf, so as someone doing that, I don't know if I could vote for someone that's so against IVF and his stance on that. But there are certain things about his policy that I don't disagree with. There are certain things that I like about him. I do think he is a calming voice for Trump.
- [08:19]
Sarah Longwell
Vance has made some comments that were.
- [08:21]
Will Sommer
In my opinion, a little inappropriate prior to being elected vice president and, you.
- [08:27]
Sarah Longwell
Know, about women and having children. There are things that stuck out in.
- [08:31]
Will Sommer
My mind about him that he said.
- [08:34]
Sarah Longwell
That were, I don't know, kind of.
- [08:36]
Will Sommer
Turned me off about him.
- [08:38]
Sarah Longwell
So it's just too far to the right. He's not somebody I would probably vote for now.
- [08:44]
Will Sommer
I think Marco Rubio, in particular, I've been really impressed, and I don't know if this is just personal opinion or just some of the perspective of some of the things that I've read. I feel like he's, from what I understand his role within the Trump administration, he's had a very heavy hand in.
- [09:01]
Sarah Longwell
The way we've played the Administration has played foreign policy.
- [09:05]
Will Sommer
And so I've been very impressed with everything going on with Ukraine, Counter China, Venezuela, everything that's happening within the Western hemisphere.
- [09:18]
Sarah Longwell
You know, once G.D. vance decided he wasn't a never Trumper, because as people may remember, he was one of us at one point. I recently started reading Hillbilly Elegy, which I had never read, and I was like, it is amazing that this person is now this crazy vice president that we have, because it reads just like such a different human being. But anyway, once he decided he wasn't an ever Trumper, he like quickly dove into the right wing corners of the Internet that you cover and he kind of never left. He's a potential 2028 candidate. I think he's probably one of the, the most likely 2028 candidates. And so what is his relationship with the right wing influencers like? Is it better or worse than Trump's relationship with that world?
- [10:04]
Will Sommer
You know, I think it's complicated. I mean, I think on one hand, I mean, first of all, what an interesting focus group. And I'm excited to dive into this because I think for people outside of this, I think for the average sort of politically engaged person, it seems like JD Vance is a lock. And then perhaps this suggests maybe not. But I mean, he's extremely online. I mean, he, he was following people, you know, with names like Bronze Age Pervert. I mean, he's just like these real kind of dreg society that I deal with. And you know, on the other hand, I think some people like people like Nick Fuentes or people who are maybe more trapped. The people who I'm writing about, people who don't want to give their kids birth certificates anymore, people like that, I think they're like kind of weirded out by his Peter Thiel connections. The idea that he's kind of like the avatar of like the sort of tech dictatorship, obviously. I mean, I think racist people just don't like him because his wife's Indian. I mean, that's one aspect of it. He is, I think, broadly acceptable probably to the far right influencers because they see him as the face of the new right, which is to say a right that doesn't care about whether they're being hypocritical about freedom or niceties like the Bill of Rights. I mean, they see the left as using institutions and government power in the past to crush the right. And now they say we're going to do that twice as much.
- [11:12]
Sarah Longwell
Remember, these are swing voters. And so part of what I'm Seeing that is interesting across a lot of groups is when you get into the hard right, big Trumpers, maga, Trump only voters, whatever they like Vance the most, especially younger men, you know, like that sort of corner of the world, people who are more online, they tend to like Vance. But there is this strange new respect for Rubio, especially among the swingy year voters where they are the ones who see him as both MAGA establishment, he works with Trump, Trump likes him, he's got Trump's blessing, but also is somebody that's been around for a long time that feel like is maybe more serious in the swing voter set. So these people voted for Trump. Although I will say that even among the base voters, as much as they like Vance more, they're also sort of experiencing this strange new respect for Marco Rubio. In part, I think, because the memeification of Rubio right now is very strong. This idea of, well, he's the one Trump gives everything to, everything that's serious that needs to be done, you give it to Rubio. And so actually, before I have you answer this, let's listen to some sound from the strange new respect for Marco Rubio. I used to think Marco was a clown. I mean, the day I thought I'd like this guy, I can't believe it. But I actually think he's doing a great job now in his new position.
- [12:41]
Will Sommer
Rubio surprised me. He's come around from when he accused Cruz of not being able to speak Spanish in the debate. That still sticks in my mind. And Cruz blasted him back in Spanish. But Rubio's hands are big enough. That's all that matters. Who do you see as a disruptor in the party right now that you like? Actually did not like him that much. But that's Rubio. I thought he was weak. Rubio, Vance, those two were probably my favorites. Vance and Rubio have really surprised me. Those two have really surprised me with the intelligence energy.
- [13:21]
Sarah Longwell
So now let's talk about these two both, now that we've got that sound in there, because as coming up a lot with Rubio, what do you make of his sort of MAGA makeover and the fact that voters are kind of buying it?
- [13:34]
Will Sommer
Well, I mean, I think part of that is the sort of the power of being Secretary of State. I mean, it's a very kind of august position, but you're not really involved in things that voters are particularly going to be mad about unless there's just some huge foreign policy debacle. I mean, you're jetting around, you get the Pictures in the Situation Room when there's the Maduro raid or something like that, and you look really serious, but no one's saying, well, geez, Marco Rubio, it's your fault that the eggs cost X amount or what have you. And so I think there is this sense that, you know, I think this turn in the Cabinet has been good for Rubio. And as you said, I mean, you know, as we saw with Tony Ducapil did the whole segment about the memes of, oh, Marco Rubio is the National Security Advisor, he's running the National Archives. So I think he's managed to do a pretty good job of laying low in a way, but clearly being involved and kind of getting his face out there looking serious. And I think obviously people like that and that seems to be getting past the kind of like the little Marco Persona for Trump supporters.
- [14:24]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I mean you hear them actively saying, and honestly, this is a thing about Vance too. Like as Vance got more maga because voters didn't like Vance. Like when I was doing Ohio focus groups when he was running for Senate, there was a lot of sort of, eh, I don't really like him, but like, I guess he's okay. And remember he was behind in that race for a long time. If you go back and think about 2022, when Vance was running for that seat, there was another guy who was like kind of more maga, just kind of weirder that was given Vance a run for his money. But Vance and Rubio, they are seen, I think, as the future by a lot of people. Except when you're listening to those swing voters who were coming around on Marco, a lot of them don't, don't like Vance. Vance seems to play best with a lot of these new rightists terminally online, but that includes a lot of young people, young men, and like sort of Trump first voters who find him broadly acceptable as like, okay, he's the heir apparent. But even among those voters, there's a like, strange new respect for Rubio. And among swing voters, swing year voters, they don't like Vance, but they do kind of like Rubio. And so I guess what I'm trying to ask is how do you see the matchup between these two guys playing out? I mean, we know Vance will run in 2028. Do we think Marco runs in 2028?
- [15:44]
Will Sommer
Yeah. I thought this audio was really interesting because again, I, I think there is this sense that, you know, J.D. vance really has it locked in and certainly if Trump supports him and kind of the GOP apparatus gets behind him. I mean, he's the favorite. But also, it was really interesting. On one hand, you have the kind of like the hardcore MAGA people who are saying the left is terrified of J.D. vance. He's, you know, he's Democrats worst nightmare. But then when you talk to these swing voters, new Trump supporters, there's this sense, and often they couldn't quite articulate why, but there is a sense of unease about Vance and this kind of like, well, or, you know, in some cases they did, and they said, well, he, you know, voted against ivf or this sense of just like, this guy's like, a little weird. And, you know, they also mention he's going to be more tied to the Trump administration than Rubio would be. And so I think if Trump is broadly unpopular going into 2028, I think that's going to be pretty bad for Vance. Whereas Rubio has the kind of Secretary of State, you're sort of jetting around. You're not that involved in the domestic policy aspect of it. And so I that it was just very interesting seeing these swing voters articulate that they didn't really like Vance that much, or they had reservations about him in a way they didn't about Rubio.
- [16:47]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I mean, the thing that comes up about Vance all the time, it's so funny because Trump is obviously horrible when it comes to women, has said horrible things. They've got the tape of him with the. Grab him by the. He's been accused of sexual assault by so many people. And yet these women, and I've listened to women now for almost a decade, sort of absolve Trump of a lot of these things in a way that they are not absolving J.D. vance of his childless cat ladies. Like, that childless cat lady has stuck in the craw of female voters. Like, you heard that one woman, she's going, come on, guys, he doesn't give you the heebie jeebies. He gives me the heebie jeebies. And a lot of the women I know, like, they're just creeped out by Vance or find him boring, weird, but, like, no Riz. No Riz. And so these groups have been pretty illuminating for me because I think I would have long thought that Rubio was kind of in a Nikki Haley Lane where he represented an old version of the party. But people are willing. This was true of Vance, too. They are willing to say, okay, you got on board, and you got on board hard with Trump. And so they give him a new look in that context. And I could see A world in which the Trump powered Marco Rubio, who's completely different from the Rubio that you and I might have liked back in the day, suddenly starts to get some purchase across the board. Or is Rubio hurt by his old stuff? Or is that starting to shift within people? And it sounds to me like what I've been listening to voters. It sounds like it's starting to shift. Do you get that impression at all?
- [18:35]
Will Sommer
I do think it's starting to shift. I think I feel like Rubio offers people. You know, it's funny with. With Vance on one hand to say, well, this guy's weird and he's boring. And so I feel like, typically, people who are weird and not necessarily also boring, but I think there's just this sense of like, I don't like, you know, I mean, you know, and sometimes they're saying why they don't like him, and sometimes they're. They're kind of, you know, not exactly saying why, but I think there's this. And, you know, I love the clip where the woman said, you know, hey, guys in this group, like, aren't you weirded out by him? Because every woman I know is, I guess the Vance Lane would be like, more Trump, more Trump than Trump. You liked the crushing the left stuff. Well, I'll do that even more. You liked the owning the libs. That's my thing. On the other hand, Rubio offers kind of like a little old Republican Party with some Trumpism sort of melded in. And so I feel like for people that that appeals, like, maybe, okay, we don't want to go back to Mitt Romney or something like that, but we want a little less Trump. And I think what we're seeing from the polls is that might be an appealing thing.
- [19:31]
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- [20:33]
Sarah Longwell
All right, I want to switch gears to a group we did recently of men aged 18 to 24 who voted for Trump in 2024. On a bunch of fronts, they sounded a lot like their older peers would sound. But one point of departure that came was when we talked about Israel.
- [20:52]
Will Sommer
After seeing a lot of things after Charlie Kirk's death and with Kansas Owens private investigation, it kind of started to notice of like, Israel is kind of always a big talking point with the Republicans. I personally have no issue with it. I just think that a lot of times when you try to punish people for saying something against it or maybe, you know, in a way like not agreeing with the standard opinion about Israel, that gives me a couple red flags. I just think it's not best to move away as much and not have as much support with it. I feel like the whole situation going on in Israel versus in Palestine, whatever, it's a big humanitarian crisis. And I've, I've watched a few videos, I've done a little bit of research looking into it. And the way, like I say, Israel conducts itself when addressing Palestine, I feel like it's a little immoral, especially with the way they even give aid. The way they give aid to these Palestinians is it's like a, a big long corridor and it's fenced. It's like a section of land. And then at the end of it there's just pallets, pallets of aid and whatever. And it's kind of like, like the Hunger Games. You have a bunch of these people piling in and whoever gets to the aid first gets the food. And oftentimes it's not women and children, it's just a bunch of men. It's just everybody fighting for their lives out there. But I mean, that's in the past now there is a ceasefire going on. I believe that there's more food coming into Palestine and whatever, and everything seems to be good. I personally can see both sides of why Israel is doing the things Israel is doing. But at the same time, I still think that Israel is doing some things like very harsh in a way. Like I said, my values, I just.
- [22:39]
Sarah Longwell
Don'T believe in that death is justifiable in any way.
- [22:42]
Will Sommer
And of course Israel is responsible for many deaths. Yes, you can argue lots of Them, they're terrorists. But of course, some of them, like lots of them, they're civilians too.
- [22:54]
Sarah Longwell
So people point to influencers like Candace Owens and Nick Fuentes as causes for rising anti Semitism on the right, especially among young magas. And there's no doubt that young people across the political spectrum, I mean, the shift that we have heard on the way that people talk about Israel, it is an absolute bipartisan phenomenon. But on the right, they are both more critical of Israel and more tolerant of like blatantly anti Semitic ideas. But how much of that is because it's what Owens and Fuentes are putting out and how much are the influencers trying to give their audience what they want? Just a chicken or egg question and I would like to know if you have any sense of where it's originating from.
- [23:39]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, I, I think there's a little bit of both. I mean, I think certainly, I think there's growing distaste among Gen Z Republicans for Israel. I think there is an aspect of anti Semitism in some cases. But I think what we're hearing from this group here is just kind of like a general disgust, disappointment with Israel's conduct in Gaza. I mean, these guys are describing actual things. I mean, they're describing things on the ground rather than, you know, that Israel controls the media or something like that. This was a big issue in the last months of Charlie Kirk's life, this sense that Israel was losing, losing Gen Z Republicans. He was writing all these letters, you know, telling Netanyahu you need to shape up, stuff like this. And so there is this sense, I think on the right that Israel has lost young people as obviously it's lost a lot of young people outside of the Trump movement in America. I think there's this kind of this sense that whether people are Candace Owens fans. I mean, Candace Owens obviously is saying just insanely anti Semitic stuff, as is Nick Fuentes. But I think people even outside of that world are just sort of fed up with Israel and saying, why is the US so closely tied? Why is the Republican Party in their case so supportive of Israel when it seems kind of like a non sequitur to the broader sort of America first agenda.
- [24:47]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. Do you think there's going to be a shift on America's relationship with Israel as it becomes a sort of clear bipartisan issue that people are frustrated with what they see as Israel's influence on American politics?
- [25:01]
Will Sommer
We're seeing in Democratic campaigns this idea that, you know, I don't want to take AIPAC money. That's kind of distancing themselves from AIPAC and, you know, in, you know, some sort of insurgent Republican campaigns, I think they're more critical of Israel than they once were. People who probably aren't going to win office, but people who I think are realizing that for young people criticizing Israel or saying, you know, I'm not going to be beholden to Israel, I think can certainly be a way to get social media attention and, you know, doesn't necessarily translate into votes at this point. But I think it's hard for me to imagine, I think a whole like sort of new crop of millennial or Gen Z Republican politicians who are really going to hew very closely to Israel.
- [25:36]
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- [26:39]
Sarah Longwell
Well, speaking of MAGA personalities like Nick Fuentes, we did want to ask people about what they thought of him. And let's listen to what we heard from these young guys.
- [26:50]
Will Sommer
I see his Instagram reels, I think, I think they can be pretty funny, but they're very like inappropriate but I think be entertaining funny. He's not like politically correct.
- [27:02]
Sarah Longwell
And of everybody, I think he's one of the classic guys who think like 75% of what he says is normal and right and the 25% that goes viral, the stuff that's I think a little bit ridiculous. I think that's his brand though. So I don't necessarily follow him to.
- [27:18]
Will Sommer
Be like, look to him for political advice.
- [27:20]
Sarah Longwell
Like I think said some of the stuff he Said you could say it's funny, sometimes think it's out of touch. I think he probably overall does more harm than good because he kind of paints the Republican Party or people on.
- [27:29]
Will Sommer
The right as being.
- [27:30]
Sarah Longwell
I think people on the left fear and that they think is everybody on the rights of Nick Fuentes? Like, that's just not the case.
- [27:38]
Will Sommer
Yeah, it's like shock humor, I guess. I don't really, like, take political advice from him. Like, I've only seen him in unserious scenarios, so can't really take them seriously.
- [27:49]
Sarah Longwell
Okay. I want to make what I think is an important analytical point that just because these people are doing the, like, I don't like the tweets sort of defense of Nick Fuentes doesn't mean his ideas are not getting planted in their heads and aren't harmful. Right. That they're not having an influence. The extent to which people knew who he was had engaged with. His content to me, is on its own. Even when they are taking it like almost as a joke, still seems to me harmful. But I think a lot of young people today have a certain, like, ironic detachment to. From figures like Nick Fuentes. We throw around terms like neo Nazi, but he kind of cloaks everything in irony. How does this sort of two step work on the far right?
- [28:35]
Will Sommer
You can hear from them over and over this idea of, you know, well, this is a guy I check out. This is a guy whose content I'm interested in. Someone said 75% of what he says is right. I mean, but they're not a big supporter. You know, we're to believe. I think you're right on saying there's this ironic detachment of sort of like, I have this content feed that I'm putting in front of my face and I'm not going to endorse everything they're saying. I mean, this is a guy who marched in Charlottesville, a guy who said Hitler's really cool. I just did a video with Tim about Nick Fuentes and other far right guys out doing Hitler salutes in Miami. The idea that he's kind of part of the pantheon of right wing characters who are getting a lot of attention is definitely a bad sign for where the MAGA movement is headed.
- [29:15]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, it's a really bad sign. And also I have this real concern about the Streisand effect with a lot of these right wing influencers where they say something deeply controversial that's so gross that either you stop on it or you clip it to be like, see, See the content these people are producing which then creates more relevancy for a guy like Nick Fuentes. Do you have any thoughts on how you are supposed to grapple with not elevating these repellent people? His stuff on women, this is where actually I think young guys sort of attached to him is. If you go and listen to not just the insane anti Semitism, but also him talking about how he's a. An incel. And how no woman will sleep with him and how he's ugly, he becomes this weird home for disenchanted young men who feel like women don't like them and they kind of hate women. And he like throws things out like, you know, your body, my choice around the abortion issue. But they find him comforting in that he's very open about his insecurities or inability to connect with women. And so like he operates on these sort of multiple levels. Not like he just sits there all the time saying Hitler's good. That's just one component and maybe not the part that people even come for. They come for some of this other stuff. Anyway, how are we supposed to deal with like a. Candace Owens is incredibly popular in part because we talk about her, because she's so insane and awful. So like how do we combat this without elevating it?
- [30:54]
Will Sommer
I think it's a really complicated question. I mean, I think let's just take the case of Nick Fuentes. I mean this is someone who obviously dined with Trump before the right just had sort of a months long internal battle over Tucker Carlson interviewing him that embroiled the Heritage foundation and all these things. So clearly, I think sort of the horses left the barn on the issue of, you know, whether, you know, me tweeting about him or the Bulwark doing YouTube about him, you know, how much that's going to elevate him. But I think you're right. It is a, it's a complicated thing. And on one hand, you know, we're loathed to give him more attention. On the other, you kind of have to acknowledge, you know, the audience. It reminds me with QAnon where people would say, don't write about QAnon. I'd be like, well, they're murdering people. You know, I mean, I like, I'm not going to tell people about that. And so it's a complicated one. And I think with Candace Owens too. On one hand she has these crazy conspiracy theories and you don't want to spread them. On the other hand, you know, it's sort of like the subterranean motivation behind a lot of what goes on the right right now in terms of how they're grappling with Charlie Kirk's assassination and the legacy and the future of the Trump movement is this idea that, you know, Kennes Owens has, maybe Turning Point USA killed him. And I think if you're not engaged with that stuff, you're sort of missing half of the story.
- [32:00]
Sarah Longwell
I agree with this. I think that there's basically no way to understand where the right is headed without understanding these crazy influencers. Like, if you'd like to ignore them, they have massive audiences because there is an appetite for what they are doing. Like, there is a market for it. That's why there's a proliferation of them. And that is the part that should scare people. The market speaks on this. There's a demand issue for it.
- [32:28]
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- [33:30]
Sarah Longwell
Speaking of these crazy people and how it's now, like, becoming more enmeshed in our politics in a real way. You've written at some length about James Fishback, the first griper politician running for governor of Florida. He has done a mixture of dog whistling and, you know, I don't know, regular whistling to racists and anti Semites during his campaign, including calling his opponent, Byron Donalds, who is black, a slave to his donors. He came up organically a lot in this group, even though none of the participants lived in Florida. And there was also a lot of interest in one of his more provocative policy proposals. Let's listen to how he got their attention.
- [34:12]
Will Sommer
I don't know if you've heard of Fishback. He's trying to run for governor of Florida. Really like what he's doing. He's young, he's like very articulate in terms of what he says and he's focusing on like the people of Florida in particular. But I did see him on like a personal interview that Shniko conducted with him and I do like his overall ideas. He doesn't support what's going on in Israel versus Palestine. And I think one of his big major policies or that he was offering or he was suggesting was a hoe tax. I'm not sure if anyone heard of it. It's syntax and it's just like he's just gonna tax like only fan girls and you know, porn stars. And I feel like that's creative. I feel like it's new and it's. It brings people talking. I like him. He's nice and young and he's stirring up conversation. I mean, I already think they make way too much money. So I feel like that money could.
- [35:08]
Sarah Longwell
Just be used in a good way.
- [35:10]
Will Sommer
I also think that it shouldn't be something that we should paint in like a very good light. So I feel like a tax get so highly would discourage a lot of.
- [35:19]
Sarah Longwell
People from doing it. But I mean, look at the things the government does. Tax to a certain extent, really highly.
- [35:25]
Will Sommer
You look at like the taxes on.
- [35:27]
Sarah Longwell
Cigarettes, the taxes on tobacco, like taxes.
- [35:29]
Will Sommer
On those sorts of items that you know aren't good for people. If you want to have them, have.
- [35:32]
Sarah Longwell
Them, but then you're going to pay high taxes. I think same deal there. I'd love to almost see. I think. I don't know if he threw it around. I think he threw it around. I listened to the same episode, but like a tax on the people buying that stuff as well, where it's like if it's going to be 100amonth, maybe it's 150 or something like that after taxes. I like it. It's creative, it's fun, gets people talking. And he's young too.
- [35:53]
Will Sommer
I like that about him. I already don't like the whole only fans thing in itself and how easy.
- [35:58]
Sarah Longwell
It is for people to make money.
- [35:59]
Will Sommer
Through it or more so how much money is spent on it. The idea of having people really be tax of those who are purchasers makes him at least second guess.
- [36:10]
Sarah Longwell
I did not know about the only fans tax thing. These young men were not asked if they are consumers of this product, but they all seem to know about this. Fishback is pulling in the low single digits in actual Florida, like with actual Floridians. He is not doing that well, but he's clearly getting a lot of attention online. So like talk to me about this character and how he is probably not the last of his kind. We're gonna see.
- [36:41]
Will Sommer
Yeah, so Fishback is a fascinating figure to me. I mean this is a guy who in terms of like actual accomplishments in life is just about at nothing. And he has this kind of insane, twisted backstory. He was at a hedge fund, he got fired from the hedge fund cause he was focusing too much on his anti woke high school debate startup. And basically he engaged in this, all this like science subterfuge where he had people posing as reporters or angry investors at the hedge fund. And as a result he's ended up with what I think is going to be 2 million plus debt to the hedge fund over legal fees. And so on one hand he's getting his car seized by U.S. marshals, he's spending on all these luxury goods and he bought a Cartier watch, wore it to a deposition and the hedge fund said, well wait a minute, we got to seize that. So on one hand this guy is at a very low level of success in life. And I should say also there are these allegations in court that he had a relationship with a 17 year old at his high school debate startup. So you know, the, the Desantis people are calling him like sort of the Epstein of the governor's race. And I should say he's also insanely racist. I mean he's going against the Trump pick, Byron Donald calling him Byron, saying he's going to send him back to the ghetto. I mean it's really twisted stuff. On the other hand, he's been very successful on social media I think with these, you know, these kind of eye popping ideas. And that gets I think into the OnlyFans thing. Look, I don't find onlyfans to be a particularly savory development in our culture. But I think this points to, there's this anger among young men, I think particularly on the right, about onlyfans. And the idea, I run into this idea over and over, it's like you can't find a nice girl anymore because all the girls are on OnlyFans. I mean it's honestly not true, but.
- [38:18]
Sarah Longwell
I think is new to me culturally. Can you just tell me more about it? How big is OnlyFans? Is it, are all many young women on OnlyFans? Like what's happening?
- [38:26]
Will Sommer
I mean Obviously, it's a big website, but I mean, there's this idea, I think, on the right that like in the past, in the 50s, you know, you could find a nice virginal girl to marry. But now, you know, OnlyFans is providing these incentives for every attractive woman to, you know, go online and pose nude or what have you. And this dovetails kind of with the. A lot of the incel ideology. I think it's really overblown. But you can see from the reactions that there's the sense that OnlyFans is like a real menace that needs to be kind of stamped out. You know, face 50% taxes. You know, part of Fish Act's prominence here is he started feuding with a prominent Only fans creator who said, you know, you're probably a gooner addicted to OnlyFans. James Fishback. And they kind of started sniping at each other over this tax. And I think, you know, people love these kind of like clever little taxes, right? They love syntaxes. Oh, you know, we'll get rid of property taxes. We'll just tax the OnlyFans women.
- [39:16]
Sarah Longwell
I'm not sure we can fund our government. I'm not sure our government can be powered off. Only Fans. But I don't know. I don't know. This might be a big market.
- [39:24]
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- [40:26]
Sarah Longwell
It's so funny you say syntax is on the right because when I was part of the right, syntaxes were wildly unpopular. This is how government coerced you. But now everybody's into syntaxes. I guess you know, whatever. I don't really understand the right anymore in its current formation, but I do think a lot about where it's headed and I know that it's not going back. That is a thing that I know as certain as I know anything after listening to so many people. And also because the new generation of MAGA types are all raised in Trump's image, right? Trump's not weird to them. They don't know the politics before Trump. Like, where do you see all of this going long term?
- [41:09]
Will Sommer
I don't think it's going anywhere good. I mean, I think you could imagine we see the interest in Marco Rubio, for example, we talked about as sort of like a sort of retrenchment to a sort of more normal Republican politics, but I think nothing like what we had pre2016. Maybe we aren't threatening to invade Greenland or, you know, dispatching ice across America. On the other hand, you know, when I look at the rise of these right wing influencers and by the way, I mean, like, you know, we're talking about their, their power. These are people who are influencing policy. I mean, Nick Shirley had his goofy video bouncing around Minneapolis. Suddenly they send ice there, you know, and potentially invoke the Insurrection act soon. Everything I see in terms of what the audience, and that's also with the voters, what they want I think is kind of more extreme, more twisted. I mean, James Fishback hopefully is not going to win this election, but I think the fact that he's resonating with so many people suggests a lane for these kind of, you know, crazy, kind of groiper, Nick Fuente style politicians in the future.
- [42:07]
Sarah Longwell
I mean, you see this more on the right now too. Although I can pull out some examples of Democrats doing it where they run for office as like a means to becoming an influencer so that they can find an audience. It used to be kind of the other way around and now it's like, well, I'll run for this and then I'll build a big social media profile and then I'll just, I'll be an influencer and make a bunch of money. I don't know, are you surprised people are going to write in and say, sarah, you're so naive, but I'm sorry that I am surprised by the appetite for racist, misogynistic content. Not because I don't think there's an appetite for that, but sort of the, the removal of shame around wanting it. The sort of normalizing, popularizing, mainstreaming of it to me is a alarming Development. And, you know, I was just listening to Trump and Davos. He's just calling people from Somalia low iq individuals. These are all low iq people. When I say Trump unleashed these toxic forces on our politics, that's sort of what I'm thinking about. There's that element of it, and then there's the soap opera element of it too, where the way that these guys become popular and their ideas get planted in your head is that they are all sort of feuding with each other and that they, like part Real Housewives, part my, you know, crappy politics, are all melded into one cultural phenomenon. If you had to give advice to Democrats about how you sort of push back on this, not replicate it, because I don't think people want to replicate it, but they do want to figure out, how do we pull the culture back from this? And obviously just being taken aback by it or saying shame on you or calling people racist, that isn't going to do it. What should the other side do to make our politics not dominated by these crazy people?
- [44:00]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a tall order. But on one hand, I mean, I look at the early days of the Zollon mine.
- [44:06]
Sarah Longwell
Solve it all for me.
- [44:07]
Will Sommer
Solve it for us right now. Here we go. All right. I'm gonna fix the country. I think there obviously is this appetite for real issues, for building things, for making things cheaper. I think about the early days of the Zoran Mandani administration. Now we're fixing the ramp outside the subway station that annoys everyone. And I think that kind of just sort of embracing the media and obviously this has been going on since the 2024, that more Democrats are sort of out there all the time and just sort of trying to dominate that space. I think there is an appetite for, you know, among, you know, relatively mainstream people to get out of the craziness. I mean, I think you hear even people who are following Nick Fuentes, who are following Candace Owens, say, you know, geez, I don't know if everything they say is true, but I think it is very compelling to watch. These people are very charismatic. And so I think the idea of sort of putting out more positive things but things that are actually concrete, you know, is potentially a way to sort of steal some of that attention away.
- [45:01]
Sarah Longwell
I agree with you, man. You know, Glengarry Glen Ross, you know, the Alec Baldwin speech is like ABC always be closing. And I think for politicians and for people who are sort of part of the Big ten pro democracy community, there's going to be like an always be communicating, always be creating because we're in a fight for an in an attention economy. And right now, like some really bad people are winning. And so we're gonna have to find a way to, to push back on that. Okay. Will Summer, thank you so much for joining us and talking us through the crazy things happening on the right. We're gonna keep an eye on this Rubio Vance thing because I'm finding the Rubio stuff is very interesting. He is a figure that I would have said had no political future and his MAGA rehabilitation seems to be working a little bit. Anyway, we're going to keep an eye on that. So thanks to you. Thanks to all of you for listening to another episode of the focus group podcast. Remember to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, subscribe to The Bulwark on YouTube and become a Bulwark plus member at the Bulwark.com See you later.