Jessica Tarlov (2:45)

Yeah, I think it's great. I mean, from how I feel about George Bush and also the innuendo. I'm totally here for it.

Sarah Longwell (2:52)

Do you know that I didn't know the innuendo until they started doing.

Jessica Tarlov (2:57)

I didn't. What?

Sarah Longwell (2:58)

I didn't. I. I am extremely innocent in these matters. I also have the Republican triangle of doom, which I have done like this for years before. Tim was like, also, I went to

Jessica Tarlov (3:10)

all women's college, so I feel like the Bush and during the Bush years. So, like, everything that you're putting out there makes a lot of sense to me.

Sarah Longwell (3:20)

The voice you're hearing is Jessica Tarlov. I'm going to introduce her in one second. But did you hear the episode where they were like, talking about constitutional bukkake and I had like, what are you talking about? Like, what is that? And then they pulled me off in the green room to explain it to me.

Jessica Tarlov (3:36)

Bukhaki is much more forgivable to me than the Bush line and that triangle that you've been making.

Sarah Longwell (3:46)

Okay, anyway, picking it back up. My guest today is Jessica Tarlov, co host of Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway. She also sits in the liberal chair on Fox News Is the Five. She's also got a book coming out in September. And it's like one week after my book comes out. It's called I Disagree Winning Arguments Without Losing Friends. And I want to do an aggressive pitch for pre ordering your book for the following reasons. One, you and I are probably going to run around together on the book tour circuit a little bit, but to your Fox News co hosts, you know, they get to like, just, I don't know, say whatever and immediately go to number one because the Fox News audience is there for them. You have to sit in that place where you're like the person they all disagree with. And so you don't get to count on the Fox News audience, like, coming and being like, I'm just going to buy your book. And so you're in that, like, not great spot. And so people on this podcast are the kind of people who need to go out, buy your book, support you, and make sure you get there.

Jessica Tarlov (4:52)

Thank you. I appreciate that. And the plug, it's very weird. It's uncomfortable. The self promotion aspect of this. I don't know if you feel that way too. If I run into someone who has, you know, even a decent sized platform, I'm like, by the way, I have a book coming out in September. Like, how's your drink? Like, have you been to any new restaurants? But you're totally right about the Fox News audience. I will add though that I think that there might be a section of like grandparents who have like a sassy liberal granddaughter that they're like, this might be the perfect book for you or how we could have better conversations. So we're going to be testing that thesis. But it, you know, it will be a mishmash of the Fox family and then the nice folks like you over at the Bulwark and the Midas Touch folks or whatever. And I very much appreciate the promotion, so thank you. And I'm excited for us to do stuff.

Sarah Longwell (5:47)

Yeah. I mean, so it is deeply uncomfortable. There's two things. One, your publishers are like, you have to talk about your book all the time. They like demand it of you if you're gonna do it. And so that part is hard because they tell you you have to and so you're trying to meet your sort of obligations to them. But also to me, the bigger thing is that so much of what I'm talking about is in the book. And so I constantly find myself referencing things that I write about there. And so I bring it up almost as a verbal tick of here is the place in which I have concretized this thing that I'm about to tell you about and where I've dramatically expanded on it. But like in this podcast, I'm giving you 30 seconds on it. And so that is part of the reason I think I find myself referencing it quite a bit. But yes, I'm self aware of how it feels like not great, great to feel self promotional.

Jessica Tarlov (6:36)

Yeah. And also how badly you've thought of other people that just incessantly plug your books and then your, their books and then you've morphed into that person.

Sarah Longwell (6:45)

I work it off by standing for JVL's Webby and you know, and making sure that, that other people too get, get, get the promotion and we all ride for each other here at the Bull Works. So I hope your Fox 5 friends go hard for you.

Jessica Tarlov (7:01)

I think they will. The book, it's not like a shit talking book at all and it has the, you know, without losing friends component of it, which is important. I'm sure There will be some ribbing about, you know, you've never won an argument, and that's in the eye of the beholder. And I would say the beholders would say that I have won plenty of arguments. But, yes, I think they'll be very supportive. And I did the COVID reveal last week and they all loved it and said, you know, this is smart framing and we all need to talk more about this. Because no matter where your politics are, you're in some kind of relationship that is fraught about this, whether it's different denominations of Democrats, frankly. I mean, I probably have at work. I certainly have a lot of conflict with the right. But the conversations. And you and Tim were getting into this, right, talking about Hasan Piker and kind of what happens with the far left of the party versus the kind of moderate center of the party. It's all tense and it's all important that we work through those difficulties for the sake of the relationships, but also for the sake of winning elections, which is what you and I are both focused on.

Sarah Longwell (8:10)

So I'm genuinely excited about your book. Like, there's a few people's books that I'm really excited about. Cause I think they've got their finger on something in the moment. There's a reason you are on for this episode of the podcast, and it is because I really want to get into how people talk about how divided we are. People might be surprised to hear that a lot of Trump voters begin most conversations by lamenting our deep political divisions. And in fact, both Democrats and Republicans will begin by lamenting our deep political divisions. And so I know that the conversations we have online that are so divisive and nasty, they are real in some sense, right? There's a lot of frustration and anger and political angst out there, a lot of divisions, a lot of people getting alienated from their families and friends because of their political divisions. But I also see the desperation to solve it, to not be this divided. And so I kind of work with that piece of it, the piece of the part that's hungry to not hate each other and see how we can lean into that part. And so I feel like that's a big part of what your book is going to address, while at the same time, I too, and this is like a function of the focus groups, you'll have somebody say, oh, God, we're like a powder keg and it's so terrible and I'm so sad about it. And then 10 minutes later they'll be like, and these libtards, they're like, here's

Jessica Tarlov (9:34)

my Molotov cocktail that I'm throwing right in.

Sarah Longwell (9:37)

Which is true. Which is like where I am like we have, we cannot live like this. It's not good for us. It's not good for our nervous system. It's not good for our civic fabric. And then there's the other part of me that's like, Jessica, how do you sit there every day and not pull punch, you know, this guy in the face? Like, you know, like that is. And I do not know political violence at all. But I mean like sitting across from Jesse Waters to me every day sounds really hard. But so tell me about just your thesis of the book and I guess would be your lived thesis about how we do disagree better and what the value is.

Jessica Tarlov (10:11)

Yeah. So the thesis of the book is that all of us can build a data backed worldview and represent it in any venue. The most challenging of venues in that coast, the Thanksgiving table to in front of 4 million people if you're sitting there on the 5. And that there is such strength to be garnered from knowing what you're talking about and then taking that information and putting it forward in a way that doesn't make you sound like an asshole. That makes you sound like you are engaged in the conversation and crucially knowing when you should walk away. And I think that you can win a lot of arguments also from receding from them, especially when you see that someone is having a really emotional reaction to the topic that you're discussing. One thing that I go in depth on is that talking about what happened to Charlie Kirk, that he was assassinated in front of everybody and especially knowing so many people who were so close to him. Like I knew Charlie, but not in the way that my colleagues did. Right. Where they socialized with him a lot, spoke at turning point events, etc. Like talking about political violence and who the main perpetrators are of it, which is the right. That wasn't the case with what happened with Charlie Kirk. But in general the trend line is reflective of that. So that's the data component of it. But when you're talking to people that are live grieving, you need to know how to massage the facts in such a way that they live with humanity and then also know how to pull out of it effectively. And I think watching your focus group and listening to these people who are so sad, desperately sad that their lives have been personally ruptured because of their politics, not the other person's politics, not the liberals. And we, we talked about this when you came on Raging moderates earlier. It's liberals that have more trouble being friends and staying close with people who are Trumpers than Trumpers have problems with it being liberals. It's just the way that it goes. We're more sensitive to it. And I think it comes from feeling that Trumpism and Trump himself is such a moral failing that it says something more definitive about you than me. If I support Kamala Harris and, you know, a progressive tax system and wanting universal health care or, you know, whatever it is that gets you, gets you going about the Democratic platform. So that's really what the book is about. And I use a lot of my life experiences, everything from strange behaviors starting in kindergarten to what my dinner table was like growing up and the kinds of conversations that we were having and the values that my parents imprinted on me up into the table on the five to describe that journey to a professional disagreer, but someone who is also most of all focused on building a better discourse and getting the Democratic Party to a place where we can win tons of elections everywhere. And that's really the third part of the book. I even have a platform that I've created from policies that lawmakers who have come on raging moderates and who I've just been interested in and researched have put out there. Because we say this all the time, like, what do the Democrats stand for? The Democrats don't have any policies. I'm sure you harangue the leadership as much as I do, saying like, give me something right? Like what are we supposed to say besides we're just not Trump? And actually a lot of Democrats have great ideas. It just gets no air in any of this. So I ended up creating a platform based on what Democrats are actually talking about. If you go to their town halls or you pay attention to what's actually on their websites versus the national discourse, which is basically like sewer garbage, I'll add, because I am a researcher at heart. There's a lot of social science in it about how we hear things that we disagree with and how impenetrable actually many of us are to things that run counter to our long held beliefs and what we do about that. And each chapter at the end has a little tips box. So if you do want to just skim and go to the tips that's that is available to you. But you know, like little hacks to getting through because it's interesting to see. And I'm sure you get this too, like how stressed out people are when they have to do anything from like go to a work event, family event. You know, you're a mom. Like the conversations that come out up at the playground, at the playground would blow my mind, right? And I know I'm an easy target for it because I work in politics, but I'm like, can we just play on the slide? Like why are we talking about this

Sarah Longwell (14:58)

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Jessica Tarlov (15:08)

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Sarah Longwell (15:10)

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Jessica Tarlov (15:12)

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Sarah Longwell (15:13)

I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3

Jessica Tarlov (15:20)

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Sarah Longwell (15:29)

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Jessica Tarlov (16:18)

New York City, right? These are political hubs. But you listen to your focus group folks like it's permeating every aspect of their lives too. And the algorithm is helping out with that enormously.

Sarah Longwell (16:30)

I mean that's a big part of what I talk about in my book and it's why I have so much sympathy for people. People get frustrated with me actually for I think the sort of empathy I have for voters. But it's funny, I also do sort of high level policy narratives rooted not in my own personal convictions about politics and policy, but entirely if I were constructing something that was based on what voters say they want all the time. I don't want to get too much into the Hasan piker thing, but I. I do think that part of what is happening is that the sort of socialists are having a bit of a moment. And I think the reason that they're having a bit of a moment is that the things that people care about most intently right now is that they can't afford stuff. And it is happening at a time when they can see the incredible wealth being amassed in other places. They personally are feeling desperately pinched. And that is leading to a kind of revolutionary pitchfork at the ready feeling among a lot of people. And so, like, I agree with that part of it. Like, sometimes people's response to me is they're like, you are out of touch. You don't know how people feel. I'm like, no, no, no. The book is filled with like, it's the affordability Stupid is like the. The big for. Oh, sort of opening policy chapter. Because it's all I hear. You heard it in these focus groups of Trump voters. Like, the thing that they're upset about is prices, is costs. I certainly don't think elites are as aware of how acute it is for people right now. And I haven't changed my mind about a ton of, like, policy specific things. But I will say my sense of as a society, the damage that dramatic wealth inequality is doing to us and our trust and our ability to live together as a people is real. And it's something that I grapple with a lot in the book because I think it matters a ton. And so my frustration then stems from when the diagnosis is kind of right, but even Trump sort of had some of the diagnosis right. It's that when the solution is tear down liberal democracy, tear down America, tear down the thing we're doing here, replace it with socialism, replace it with fascism. And I'm like, no, what. What I'm arguing with a lot of passion in my own commitment is a sense of the things that are wrong with America right now can only be solved by what is right with America. And it is not by abandoning the things that make us Americans. In fact, it is leaning into the things that make us good here. And I take a lot of examples about what that can look like. But anyway, I like that.

Jessica Tarlov (19:07)

Yeah, that's very. Never Trump coded right. The we can fix this with what's right with America. And there are definitely Democrats who talk like that. And Barack Obama did an incredible job with that, talking about how he couldn't exist in any other country. But the problem Is, I think, for the political moment, I guess. And why the far left or the social, the DSA left, whatever you want to call it, is having such a moment, is they're fundamentally better talkers right now. Like, I was at an event last night and mom, Donnie spoke. I came in. He only caught a couple minutes of it towards the end. So I was running late. And I wasn't a Mandani person, and I wasn't an anything person. I thought the mayoral election was horrific here in New York City generally. But I'm into Mandani now because the guy just gets it. And I've said this multiple times to people who vehemently disagree with me. I have many friends in the modern orthodox community who can't stand talking to me about this. I said that man cares. You can disagree with policy positions and say this is implausible or this isn't enough, but he has made it clear in his response to every question, from genuine ones to gotcha ones about going to the Met gala, that he is laser focused on the problem that is affecting the widest swath of New Yorkers and widest swath of Americans. And you see a John Ossoff, who, you know, said last night on Ms. Now that he's not interested in running for president in 28, which you should be saying if you're running for Senate.

Sarah Longwell (20:52)

But I'm interested. I'm interested.

Jessica Tarlov (20:54)

But that's the thing. When I was at this event, which was a Zateo event, you know, Mehdi Hassan Hasan, piker, they all like Jon Ossoff the same way that you and I like Jon Ossoff.

Sarah Longwell (21:06)

That's right. And I think this is what I mean about the piker thing. I am probably more in agreement with the diagnosis on a couple of these parts because I listen to voters. I actually think it's good if the ultimate place we land is that Democrats really focus on affordability and like, attention to people's material concerns and demonstrate a real commitment to caring about voters. And that as that. And as a result, like, people like me and people like Biker, both like them, like, that's the way to do it.

Jessica Tarlov (21:35)

That is the Big Ten dream.

Sarah Longwell (21:36)

Not as me as the litmus test. You're trying to make the Democratic Party more Republican. Or with piker as a litmus test, where everyone's like, is this guy the key to young men? No, no. The candidate, the person who can create the higher level narrative that reminds people America is both a place where, like, I can reflect back to you what is Happening with care and concern. And I've got ideas to address it. And I'm going to talk relentlessly about it because this is what matters, not whatever like, nonsense cultural fight we're going to have. I'm going to figure out how to improve your life. And like, that's good. Like, I want candidates like that. I'm not going to not like John offsoft because Hassan Piker, like, because I actually think if both me and Piker like the same person, it's because that person's doing the right thing. However, I still reject as part of who I am, socialist ideology. Right? Like, that's not who I am. People who are like, you just don't understand his worldview. I'm like, no, no, I understand it and I reject it and have rejected it my whole life. But this is the main point. If mainstream Democrats will not address the affordability issues, people will start turning to the socialists. And if mainstream Democrats can't figure out how to talk about these things in a compelling way, they will turn to AOC Mamdani and people like Piker because they're clear about what they believe. And so, like, the wishy washy centrum won't play anyway. We are way off course. I knew this would happen if we started talking about. But it's still a good discussion.

Jessica Tarlov (23:09)

It's still political chatter and I'm glad to have it with you because, well, I like you and that was good book promo. But also I think that we feel similarly about the divisions within the party and are looking for salvos that are good for us electorally but also make people happier and feel cared about. And listening to your focus group and I pay attention to a lot of the data. I have been surprised, frankly, by how open to revolutionary swings the average person is at this point. You know, how despondent they are, how depressed, how much this division is hurting them and how terrible they feel. Every time they go to the grocery store, they fill up at the pump. Maybe I'm years late to this, but Trump tapped into it when Bernie tapped into it in 2016, you know, they were having the same conversations, whereas Hillary was having a different one. You know, I get why people are saying, burn it all down. And if the majority of the Democratic field doesn't say, I am going to burn it down, you are not getting out of that primary and you don't deserve to get out of the primary. You got to figure out how to burn it down within the rules and obviously no actual arson.

Sarah Longwell (24:27)

I think I disagree with that in the sense that my. My. One of the chapters in my book is build, baby, build. I think we build our way out of it. I think it is not a burn down thing. And this is my problem with a lot of people. I think, like Piker is that I do feel like it brings a burn it down ethos to it instead of a build a new thing up ethos. And I am firmly in that latter camp.

Jessica Tarlov (24:47)

We're actually sank. Sorry, I. I was saying burn it down by making real revolutionary changes to things, which includes building stuff, you know, being abundance pilled about it. Like, I think we should be talking about, you know, how many millions of affordable housing units you're going to be building and things like that. I meant burn it down by recognizing how insane this moment is for the average American and how left out of the system they are feeling. That was more my burn it down. I don't even know how you would like, actually burn down the system. So I'm not quite that good.

Sarah Longwell (25:23)

I mean, Trump is doing a pretty good job of burning down the system,

Jessica Tarlov (25:26)

but we would never do that. That's the thing.

Sarah Longwell (25:28)

You mean Democrats would never.

Jessica Tarlov (25:30)

Yeah, we just. We're not coded that way.

Sarah Longwell (25:33)

This is why I object to the Piker part. Right. Is that I think that, like those. I know, I know you think he's handsome and that you're his queen because of it, but like I was his

Jessica Tarlov (25:42)

queen before I said on national television that he is objectively handsome, which is true. But did. I'm sure you also saw this, that what was it like, 80% of people don't even know who Hasan Piker is. I mean, this is like a complete inside baseball conversation. AOC is somebody that everybody recognizes or Mumdani.

Sarah Longwell (26:02)

And the thing is, I think about how people communicate. They are the best communicators. Although this is why I've been in such a buoyant mood despite getting the flu. I am loving Jon Ossoff. I am loving watching Pete. And because they're both doing the thing that I. That I really lay out in the book, which is go to strange places. And not everybody gets obsessed with podcasters or streamers, wherever, like you got it, like, as though they're the new mediators. The point is there's no mediators. Do what Pete does. Go talk directly to these people. Make your case. Show up. Don't. I'm going to say touch them, but I don't mean. I mean, good touch, you know, put your arms around them. Let them.

Jessica Tarlov (26:40)

I've been screaming for burning things so don't worry. Everyone knows what you mean. And, and Pete also, he does it without a teleprompter.

Sarah Longwell (26:47)

He does.

Jessica Tarlov (26:48)

Which I have been noticing the skill for that guy, but I loved. And he had this great interaction in Tulsa last weekend where someone asked about this question that was in your focus group. It's part of your book. It's definitely part of my book. You know, how do you build back these relationships? Right? Like, Trump is going to leave office. I'm knocking on wood also. And we are going to be left with a world that has a lot of people in it that miss him, really liked him, but also are ready to move on and want to rebuild these relationships. And how do we do that? And I think our candidate has to have an answer for that as well. I agree with you.

Sarah Longwell (27:33)

I think that they should show the contrast of the toxicity of. Of the Trump stuff and why they. They're not going to be like that and why they're going to focus on the real things that help you. Whereas Trump made fake promises and all of those things, they have to create that. That thing that lets all kinds of different kinds of people attach to them and feel, make them feel good. People are tired of feeling like garbage. I really want the people putting stuff into the space to be the kinds of people who are like, I see how shitty it feels to hate your countrymen. I see how crappy it feels to every day feel like you can't afford things, but also feel like everybody around you is the enemy. Like, nobody. Our nervous systems can't take it. Ten years of Trump, they've done us all damage. And so, like, can we repair that damage? Not by going back. We're never going back. By building something new forward together. What do you do with, like, military guys or anybody else from all these different backgrounds? You have to do a whole project together. Well, guess what the project is, guys. It's America. It is not building us into, like, the Chinese Communist Party. It's not Russia. It's here. It's this thing we do here together. I drive my bus in a busy city. That's why road safety is so important to me. I know that I must slow down and be extra careful when I make a wide turn. Buses need more room than cars. Everyone can help keep our roads safe. Next time you're driving, remember to give buses plenty of time and space to finish turning before driving ahead. Let's all plan to share the road safely. Learn how at www.sharetheroadsafely.gov. this podcast is sponsored By Talkspace. November is Men's Health Awareness Month. So Talkspace wants guys to know that being prepared for life's biggest challenges and opportunities means prioritizing mental health too. Talkspace can help you go beyond fine tuned workouts, supplements and productivity hacks. Talkspace can help you fine tune your inner life so you can succeed in being the best version of yourself in any situation. And with Talkspace, you can get therapy from anywhere and on your time. You can even text your therapist between sessions. If you're depressed, stressed, struggling with a relationship, or just need a little extra one on one support, Talkspace is here for you. Plus Talkspace takes most insurance and most insured members have a zero dollar copay. Men's Health Awareness Month is the perfect time to reach out to TalkSpace. Now get $80 off your first month with promo code space80 when you go to talkspace.com match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace.com and save $80 with code space80@talkspace.com that's talkspace.com promo code space80.

Jessica Tarlov (30:08)

This is so nice, but also we should just get a cocktail at some point. But what you're describing and the person who I think can do that, and I guess I, I should preface this with I hate the labels, even though the name of my podcast is Raging Moderates. But the people who bring folks together and win elections tend to be in the center because they can appeal to the center right, the center left, and even over to the progressive left. I'm kind of leaving out the MAGA faction of this since Trump has been on the ballot and they are the consensus makers. Right. When you listen to like a Pat Ryan talking, you completely understand why folks of all different political stripes can get behind somebody like that and not feel like it's a betrayal of their core political values. And that's an important case that I'm also making in the book. You know, just, just based on the brass tacks of who wins elections, especially tough elections, and you know, who wins them by bigger margins because all of these moderate candidates outperformed calmly. Frankly, we were saved by them, you know, in Michigan and in Arizona, Nevada, etc, because they were these consensus builders who could say, I understand you don't want to feel this way and I'm not going to make you feel shitty because of your politics. I'm just going to help you get more money.

Sarah Longwell (31:34)

Yeah.

Jessica Tarlov (31:35)

And that's it. That's all people, they don't care. They don't need to be in your life that much like the People who are concerned about boob jobs for illegals in California, they're gone to some degree. I don't think you should treat them poorly. I think you should still engage with them, but don't think about them that they're about to switch over to be, you know, part of your coalition. Most people are still within reach and making that reach I think is important and worthwhile.

Sarah Longwell (31:58)

I sort of reject the whole more moderate versus more progressive frame in the book in part because I watch voters are like a weird salad of stuff and they're very like a little bit from column A, a little bit from column B. And so like they really care about affordability. They also really care about feeling safe and so a secure border and somebody who cares about crime. Like now you're like, okay, well can I get those both in the same candidate. They also don't like the politics of identity kind of broadly. They don't like white identity politics. They don't like sort of what they would call sort of the DEI woke at any politics. Like I just hear it over and over again. They're like, why are we talking about this? People are starving. It's not even that they, they like don't, I mean they definitely don't like it. They think it's. We over index in our conversations about it relative to what they're desperate for, which is for somebody to make their life better in material ways.

Jessica Tarlov (32:57)

So I have a little bit of pushback on the anti identity politics jargon that goes around because I don't really believe it. So they want to not feel like they're doing identity politics or they want to not be. They don't want to be messaged that way. But they also want to know what will you specifically do for me? And inherent in our identities we need different things. Like I pay more attention to a daycare or a pre K announcement than, than a six year old man. Like that's just a fact. Like I have a 2 and a 4 year old, right? So I, I need to be paying attention to those things. It's a fact of life that you have to talk to people about the things that affect them. Like I, you know, I have a uterus, I gave birth, I have to get my kids through life. Like that's the main thing that I'm paying attention to and that relates obviously back to the economy. But like I need stuff that is specifically geared towards me, like my reproductive health and what I'm, how my kids are going to get educated and taken care of.

Sarah Longwell (33:53)

This is a Great point, but it's also a semantic one because you're right, I just said identity politics and I kind of meant a stand in for like chopping people into little groups. But of course, all politics is identity politics because people are trying to figure out, they're like, well, my identity is xyz, I am a woman, I am a black person, I am gay, or I'm a, I'm, I'm, I make this much money or I am educated. I'm not like, whatever, whatever. However you identify yourself, that's deeply important to you and you're looking to be able to find something in a politician. My point, and I think, and this is where you sort of get the woke DEI stuff, is when a politician focuses too much on any given sort of identity fight and they seem to over index on that thing versus something that impacts much broader groups of people. And like, I, I hear all the arguments you don't have to fight with me about, you know, while civil rights is, is a, is a, you know, for, for trans people is, is the same as for everybody else. I like totally understand that. Again, I'm not writing about my particular politics. I'm talking about what I hear from voters. And what I hear from voters is stop talking about all this stuff when we don't have like, good jobs. And so I think that you're, you're right that everything is identity and that makes sense. But that's a question of how are we having the conversation. What I hear from voters is, please talk about the things that matter to all of us. And like, you keep talking about things that like, actually don't matter that much to me. And so it's not even that they object to that thing. It's not that they care about the trans sports thing, they don't care about it, but they're like, but stop talking about it and tell me how you're

Jessica Tarlov (35:38)

going to help me 100%. I think Rahm Emanuel has that great line about the Democrats are focused on the smallest room of the House, the bathroom. Yeah, we saw that with the North Carolina bathroom bill.

Sarah Longwell (35:50)

To be fair, Republicans try, and this is also something I really try to tease apart in the book is like, if it was just, you know, do we treat trans people like citizens and they shouldn't be discriminated against forever? A majority of Americans are with you. Republicans on purpose push the conversation to bathrooms and sports and some of these places in an attempt to go to a place that like, you do end up in kind of a 3070 issue that Democrats are super uncomfortable defending and get crosswise with some of the interest groups.

Jessica Tarlov (36:26)

Totally. I, I think Republican electeds are the main problem, frankly. And commentators, because they are pushing people into boxes that they aren't in, actually they're perfectly cool with you going about your life as long as they can have a good job and like go to Disneyland. Do you want to play focus groups?

Sarah Longwell (36:46)

I do. Oh my God. 37 minutes and my producer's gonna be rip I'm gonna play some Republicans and Democrats back to back as how these political divisions are affecting their lives. Up first, These are Trump 2020 and Trump 2024 voters. So not the swingy voters, but full on Trump voters. Let's listen. I feel that things are divisive. People are easily more persuaded to have disagreements and opposing conflict over the smallest things that aren't even related to politics or government network and human resources. And I just noticed there is a huge increase and people are just unsettled. And you know, regardless of what side of the political ile we're on, I think people feel it's become very common to be in each other's faces. There is a respect for a differing opinion or how to do things. There is the being even politically polite. And what I mean by that is just, you know, if somebody does have a opposing view, people are very quick to call somebody out that you're wrong, you're stupid. We've lost friends over it. Even though, like, we don't post political things. We've literally. My husband and I have lost friends. My stepmother, her niece didn't even go to her, didn't invite her own parents to her wedding. And when her father died, she never even went to say goodbye to him or even went to the funeral. That's a lot of tedious if you ask me. And, and it's a shame that it would tear families apart like that because I feel the Democrats are more. They vote with emotions, they feel with emotions. They don't kind of use their brain and think hard on things before making a, you know, a sound statement. And I think that it's a shame because everything's built with emotions with them. The predominant theme in my opinion, for the division is the media. The media controls most of the narrative and the belief and the leaning of the way society goes and our president. And social media is driving the division. Social media is huge. Late night talk host, I feel like 95% of the hosts are always, you know, shooting on some politician, you know, normally Trump. It's any of the main networks, such as abc, cbs, all the nightly things social media is said. But I believe a lot of the main networks control the media and control what is being said. Those are the ones that still a lot of people can get with antenna. And sadly, those are the ones everyone watches. I have a sister who is very, very far left, and it is next to impossible to have a decent conversation with her because it's just. I feel like it's. There's no common sense, I feel like. And no worldly experience. I guess that that bothers me. And I feel like a lot of the far left are like that, too. It's just. They're just very angry and a lot of not taking responsibility for themselves. And there's a lot of finger pointing, a lot of blame on, for their actions on other people. So those were Trump voters. And because we've got to move quickly now through the focus group sound, I'm just going to move right next to how some of the Democrats talked about the Republicans in their lives. Let's listen. I have a brother that used to, you know, be a Democrat. And then just the last elections, I started hearing that he decided to go with Trump. And I just, I just couldn't understand it. I was just like, I understood the first time when he got elected. I was like, you know what? Maybe just try that. Okay, let's try that. Maybe I see the appeal for him and I just respect whatever he wanted to do. But then once he got, he lost a second time, and then he won the third time and then all what he did, like, I'll try to have, like, conversations with them. Like, you didn't just see what he did on January 6th. And it's a joke that I will make to my brother because, you know, he goes to school, he gets a degree, he starts making a little money. And I would make fun of him because then I started noticed, like, he started to go to the gun range. And I'm like, bro, are you turning into a Republican now? Bro, what's up? And then he'd be like, you know, hey, they're gonna lower our taxes if I vote for this particular candidate. And I'm like, bro, like, you're a Democrat, right? Still, right? I don't want to, like, not talk to you anymore. And it's just a joke, you know, we have fun with it. At least the one close friend. We no longer speak over this whole.

Jessica Tarlov (42:05)

I'm sure you've heard Qanon and all

Sarah Longwell (42:08)

of that stuff, right? She's absolutely crazy. So our relationship has been totally severed

Jessica Tarlov (42:15)

I have a really good friend who

Sarah Longwell (42:19)

went through breast cancer.

Jessica Tarlov (42:21)

She's quite young as well.

Sarah Longwell (42:23)

Went through breast cancer a few years ago. And she's a big, big supporter of Trump and doesn't believe he's taking away funding for cancer research. Like, how can you not believe that?

Jessica Tarlov (42:36)

So it's kind of just made me

Sarah Longwell (42:38)

take maybe a step back and look at them. That's not to say that they're bad people, because they're a bottle to me as well. You're a Democrat, I'm a Republican. We both want what's best for America. No, in my opinion, you don't want what's best for America, or you wouldn't have voted for Donald Trump. My mom, she's an immigrant. She literally came here from Italy when she was 11. She is in her mid-70s, and she voted for Trump several times. I try to educate her as much as possible because she doesn't. She lists. All she watches is Fox News. It's not like I can cut my mom off. I'll cut other people off, but it's my mom. So you just kind of have to make it work. I don't think people voted for Trump for the man. I think they voted more for Kamala and perhaps their perception of what his economic policies would be. There are certain real estate rules that Democrats support in terms of capital gains that the Democrats support. Don't. That really hurts people. So I don't view them as bad people. What I'm trying to say, because most people don't like this guy. My father is, like, a very scary Trump supporter. He's like, one of, like, the biggest ones out there.

Jessica Tarlov (44:01)

So he, like, hangs up on me

Sarah Longwell (44:02)

when I mentioned anything, like, against Trump. It's really bad to that point that

Jessica Tarlov (44:07)

I'm like, look, I'm not going to

Sarah Longwell (44:08)

talk about this at all. But we kind of just ignore the situation. Like I said, he hangs up on me, and I just kind of move on with the day until the next topic. Because he always brings up Trump every

Jessica Tarlov (44:19)

time we talk to him.

Sarah Longwell (44:19)

Every time I talk to him, and I'm like, I don't want to talk about this. I have another friend who happens to be an immigrant. He works in finance, and he's also gay, and he voted for Donald Trump. I don't actually know why his is reasoning for that. I think he realizes most of his friends are very progressive, so he doesn't

Jessica Tarlov (44:40)

really talk about it.

Sarah Longwell (44:40)

So we don't ever speak about it. But I recently found that out, and I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with this person? I don't understand his reasoning. I don't really want to know or care. I just know that I would never have sex with that person. Okay, so that's the Republicans and the Democrats on how politics negatively affects their lives. And just lest anybody think, you know, oh, you guys cherry picked some things from different groups for your episode. No, this is the most common thing I hear in focus groups is the way that people sort of feel crappy in their lives and their relationships are impacted because of politics. So you spend a lot of time disagreeing in public. You and I, obviously, we spent a ton of time up top now talking about all this. But, like, what are some of the ways in which we put this back together? I mean, if you've just wrote a book about it, you clearly thought about this, like, what are we going to do to try to heal this civic fabric that feels like it's been so desperately torn apart?

Jessica Tarlov (45:43)

I think first and foremost, restarting conversations or open channels of communication with people that you have lost along the way has to be the first step in this. And I think for some folks, that's necessarily going to turn back into a, you know, a. A lively, loving relationship. And there's a lot of hurt and misunderstanding in some cases, but mostly hurt that has transpired over the years. But I, I'm a big believer in olive branches. And just even if you say, like, I. I remember this from when my dad passed away, that I heard from, obviously all the people that I'm super close with, but also heard from people who I used to be close with, just said, I don't really know what I want to say except that I'm sorry and I'm thinking of you. And I think that that works for our politics too, where. Because I noticed that a lot of these families or relationships that have broken apart, they then start moving through life because they're forced to, unless they're doing a focus group. Just considering, like, that person is not dead, but is definitely estranged. And so opening up a first channel of communication, I think is something worth your time. Because it doesn't mean that you're going to mend that fence right away or that you're willing to back down on your position, but to signify that the humanity is still there and that you're thinking about their heart and you're thinking about your own heart and the impact that it's taken on you. Because that was. I mean, I took notes when I was watching the whole focus group. Divided, angry, sad, broke, were the adjectives that I wrote down. And the sad was probably the biggest one. I mean, broke has a more important effect on you. Like, I can't go and go out to dinner or buy the groceries that I want to, but you can hear the sadness in everybody's testimonial. Yeah. And so, I don't know. I'm a big fan of just. Just saying I'm thinking about you and seeing where it takes you.

Sarah Longwell (47:57)

Yeah. It's almost like good advice for politicians as well. Right. People's hearts are really wound up in this. And that is the thing that I hear in the groups that does. It's not just like it fills me with empathy. It's that it feels all very real and human. And then it actually is a little bit of the antidote to the nastiness online, because you can see the goodness. The good part is there, the negative parts there too. But, like, the good part's also in there. And you think about, like, how do I feed that part of it? How do I feed the part that is sad and reaching out for connection? Just because I hear so many people talk about family and friend estrangements and cutting people off. It feels like when people feel like they don't know how to do something about politics, they're upset about politics. It's so they're angry about it. It's like they don't know who to punish for it. And so they punish the people that are close to them. Right. Because that feels like an action they can take to demonstrate the sign how significantly they feel harmed by the political actions that that person has empowered. And I wonder if you get this pushback from being on the five. Is that. Do people sort of say things like, well, you're accommodating this by, like, you know, being with these guys and, like, contin, like, normalizing them or sane washing them or whatever it is by being with them. Like, why isn't it better to just leave them to their devices and not feel like, you know, you're treating it with, I don't know, real significance?

Jessica Tarlov (49:23)

There's a whole faction of the left that feels it is not worthwhile to engage in the way that I do. They're not saying don't engage in general, but that I am part of a show that entertains people and often makes jokes that my co hosts, but also me, like, I joke around on that show. If you. Actually, most people who are watching me here with you on the Bulwark probably only see clips of me. They don't Watch the whole hour long show, but they're two to three segments are lighter. Right. We do like red meat politics up front and some politics infiltrates the back end of it when someone makes, you know, an off topic comment. But in general, you know, it's the full poo poo platter of things you would be talking about if you were spending an hour with anybody. Like it's gonna go from oh my God, I can't, you know, I can't believe that we bombed a school and killed 150 schoolgirls to I'm really concerned about robots. Right. Like that's a normal conversation that you would be having with people that you know and that you know well. And so the five covers all of that. And I think that is honestly what allows people to who watch the show and are die hard maga even to have some affection for me because the real life stuff gets in there. But also we have, you know, 20 viewership as Democrats and 30 are independents. Like, this isn't a right wing bubble in the way that people typically think. But that has changed From, I think 2016 was such a jolt to the system. Democrats got smarter about. You have to pay attention to what the right is saying. And that has also benefited me, I think my style, the way that I do the show and I'm, you know, not deferential to my co hosts. It's not like the Hannity Combs model, right, where it's always set up for failure and four on one is not great odds. But I think I, I do well against the numbers that way. But the attitude has shifted and people like people to judge and Bernie Sanders that are like, you got to show up and you got to have these con, you know, these conversations is ridiculous. To kind of, you know, do a blackout, especially when the audience is that big, has made a massive difference in that. And I do hear that and I'm sure that you have in focus groups as well, the people to the media point, they don't want to see media where it's just a big circle jerk, right. Where everyone is just agreeing with one another or that you just have various denominations of I hate Trump. Right. That's not that entertaining. In the same way. We definitely think about that. I'm blanking on what your initial question was, that I ended up with it. Oh, but yeah, there are folks who will just say if you're working within the system, then you're supporting it. And even if you're putting good information out, there are a lot of people that are Putting, you know, misinformation out and you're supporting the system and those people, I will never be able to convince that I, that it's a worthwhile thing to do.

Sarah Longwell (52:28)

And I do think, you know, for me, who kind of lives in a world of, like, believing in persuasion, sometimes I do struggle with, like, the letting it go of the people you're never gonna convince. Because I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I, I, I can think of a way that we could all get to the same place. Let me just ask you one more tough question about that, because trust me, I am firmly on your side and I am someone who shares the clips of you. Because most of the viral clips, are you really handing it to one of them in, like, this not even patient way, exactly, but in a way that is measured enough to be just, like, deadly in the way that it hits. I deeply appreciate going into hard places and having those tough conversations, but I'm like, I'm marginally sympathetic, I think, to the critique from people who are, like, you know, for people who are, let's, we'll use the term elite, but. Right. But like, they, they have money and they're basically in some ways sort of secured away from a lot of the devastations of life from people who either live in poverty or, like, let's say you are a trans person in Trump's America right now or whatever. Like, when people say, well, it's so easy to, for you to talk about civility when you are not going to be as harmed by these institutions as some of us who are ready to pick up, pick up the pitchfork. Like, how do you handle that response?

Jessica Tarlov (53:48)

With empathy and understanding as much as I can. I, I think humanity and the shared stuff is really what is going to save us and leading with that. And I try that to do that, even with my arguments that you'll see at the beginning of those clips, where it ends up being kind of like a lesson in, like, this is what the data actually says. Like, this is, you know, the facts on the ground, etc, that it usually started with something that was pretty conciliatory because there always is something where you can find some common ground, at least for five to 10 seconds. And then you go into what, what case you want to make. But I think about this a lot. We did a mailbag episode at the end of last year for raging moderates, and one of the entries came from a trans person, basically conveying what you're saying there. And I almost hurt crying in, in responding to it because I Just felt so awful that if we're all this level of sad and feeling divided that this person was that much more right that had this other level of risk and insecurity and fear added to all the regular problems that we have. But I will say, and we met in person briefly at Crooked Con, which was exciting for me. I'm not usually at kind of left wing things, so I was walking around being like, there are Democrats all over the place. But I my panel, which I was on with Tim and Hassan Piker and Simone Sanders, which was quite spicy. I afterwards was meeting some of the folks who had come for the day's events and trans woman from Alabama came up to me to talk to me and I wasn't sure exactly what she was going to say because we had talked about the transports issues on the stage and Simone Sanders had taken an opposing view to me on it. I feel like you can say this is an 8020 issue. This is a fairness issue at elite competition levels. And let's talk about making sure that kids have the most fun possible and that they all feel included and you know, let the NCAA deal with this. Like Charlie Baker is very capable in dealing with this problem and knows the numbers that it's 10 of 500,000 athletes, et cetera. Right. And what she said to me was that she doesn't speak to her parents anymore, a Fox News family, but she is so happy that they hear me and that they see that there is a Democrat modeling civility to the way that discourse is done, but also putting forward a very normal set of policy positions like not taking the bait on all of these fringe issues that don't really matter to the average American and to by extension don't really matter to her. Right. She would be someone in this focus group saying I my job's not good enough. Right. Like I can't afford rent and I'll never be able to own a home. And majority of what I get is thank you for talking to the people who don't talk to me anymore or the people who I am in contact with still. But I am struggling with how to represent how we see the world. And I actually put, I thought about calling the book Surviving Thanksgiving, but as an appendix I have the section 10 tips for your table. And I go through 10 hot button issues and how I've argued about them on air and what I think are the most cogent arguments. So if you sit down and you're talking to an uncle about anything from what's going on with immigration enforcement to the no Kings protests to handling, talking about Trump's corruption vis a vis, you know, Hunter Biden, whatever it is. And I see that. I see the whole range of what people need to understand about having these tough conversations from, like, actually, tell me, what is the rhetorical tool or the thing that I should literally be saying to how should I be thinking about these people in your focus groups, these devastated people who don't have folks in their lives that really matter to them anymore because of their politics or how they feel about those people's politics?

Sarah Longwell (58:15)

I could do this for a really long time. There's, like, this is such a rich vein, but we have to keep moving. Yeah, but that's a. That's a great answer. And I get the same thing, and it's one. Actually, one of the reasons I wrote the book is that when people come up and they know that you listen to people, what they want to know is like, how do I talk to my family? How do I talk to my friends? Like, it is a. It is that they want sort of practical things for how do we get through this moment? How do we get back to a place where we donate each other? Like, that is what most people want.

Jessica Tarlov (58:44)

And don't you feel, though, that you also are looking for that from people? Like, we're supposed to be the pros at it, and we are. I mean, we're professionals who specialize in this. But I'm looking all the time to people like you, to like Mel Robbins of the world for tips even on how to get better at it, because we're. We're stuck here together, that this is not ending. And I don't want the American Project to end that way. I'm concerned about things like civil war. I'm not the only liberal who's like, should I have a gun? Like, how, you know, like, what comes next in all of this? But if you are thinking about build, build, build, and the importance of the American Project, you know that we all have to get better at this. So you don't have devastated people sitting in focus groups bemoaning the loss of their friendships, the loss of their jobs, betrayal by electeds, and that's across the board. Like, you know, I think Trump is the biggest betrayer of them all, but totally Democrats feel totally betrayed, too.

Sarah Longwell (59:51)

Agree with all that. It's a good thing we're going on book tour together, because there's so much, I think, in the ways that we have two very different books, but they are complementary in a lot of ways. Now we're Going to go to the tough stuff, which is the people who are stuff. This is, well, this is listening to the people who are still part of the 32%. Because I think, I think for you and I, I think, tell me if I'm wrong here. Are you not feeling hopeful in the sense that Trump is now experiencing his lowest performance levels, period, ever, except like maybe right after January 6th, like that's basically where he lives now.

Jessica Tarlov (60:29)

It feels like the rubbers meeting the road. So like everyone knew that he was a huge moral failing as a human being. Right? And this goes back to like I'm still obsessed with Hillary Clinton's role models ad from the 2016 election where the kids are watching Trump and thinking like, how was this not persuasive enough for people? And it's the economy, stupid and a bunch of lies. But it's the bad results are meeting the moral failings and that is the perfect storm to take him to the low 30s in terms of approval. And gotta say, I mean, this happened with Biden too. A really bad foreign policy decision, the Afghanistan withdrawal and now with what's going on with this war in Iran. Like those are breaking points usually for presidents. And it is very hard to get back because it hits different demographics in, in different ways. But everybody from, you know, the suburban mom that liked him to the Vietnam vet, right, who believes in just wars and thinks that we need a new kind of foreign policy, this non interventionism that he's been preaching about, you know, for decades are thinking like, what the F is going on?

Sarah Longwell (61:47)

That's right. And so the last, last number of shows we've been highlighting those people because I hear it all over the place. Lots of Trump disapproval from Trump voters, young people, you know, Hispanics, you know, sort of red pilled types.

Jessica Tarlov (62:03)

Well, the 80% disapproval with independents is wild.

Sarah Longwell (62:06)

Yeah, that's right. That's right. So his numbers are. We are, we are, we are getting to the Bush line and. But these are the people who still live under it. These are the people who are still in it with him. We can call him the 32 percenters if that causes people to giggle less. So these are Trump voters who they voted for him in 2020 and 2024 and they are people who gave him either an A or a B. And I will say lots of people did not give him an A or a B. When you ask the question, who are the people who still support Trump after all this, this is them. Let's listen. There'll never be another person that's even Close to being like with the characteristics that he has. So along with those come, like, really strong positives and also some real ugliness. It's a package deal. People that are like, extreme, you know, that sometimes is the case. And that's definitely the case with him. Like, you know, the most resilient person ever, but also can be very nasty. The cost of living being high, you know, you're not going to get an A with the way it is. I think as woke as the country has been, it's less woke now. He's making like, really big bold moves. So, you know, like all the tariffs and the trade stuff, what's going on with Iran, which we, you know, I'm not saying it's all talked about for decades that haven't, they haven't done anything. So I'm giving him credit for that. And along with that comes chaos and turmoil.

Jessica Tarlov (63:47)

I am a federal employee who went through the furlough, I went through Doge. I've been through all of that and I still support Trump because, to be

Sarah Longwell (63:58)

honest, Stephen was right. The amount of things I've seen in

Jessica Tarlov (64:01)

the government's disgusting and it needed to go through and the things that they were uncovering, I give a B because he actually could have pushed a lot further.

Sarah Longwell (64:12)

And I don't think people realized on both the Republican and the Democratic side how much he would push. The haters are going to hate. So I just feel like we're never going to see that teamwork with, you know, all the nasty things he says and, you know, all the targets on his back. But, you know, for the, for what we do get like involved with, like foreignly, like with Iran, with Venezuela, I feel like those are things that are, you know, things that just someone said earlier, I don't remember who said it, but it kind of just makes sure we keep, you know, people off our doorsteps and make sure like, you know, it lets people know, like, we will get involved when needed. I'm at a high B. I'm at a, like an 89. Why I didn't give him an A is because I would say the economics to the. It's. Everything's really high, cars, everything. My daughter's about to go into college and looking at how much her four year degree is kind of crazy. But as for the rest, I knew who I was getting into when I voted for Trump. He wasn't a politician. So how he is is exactly how he was on his TV show. I think ICE was necessary. I think everyone should be here legally and Pay taxes. I thought building a wall was a good idea. I think regime change was needed in Venezuela and Iran. So I support both of those efforts. I think it's required in Cuba as well. I support his view on tariffs. I think we should prioritize our nation interest and jobs. I think we should keep our jobs here. We should make more jobs for Americans, get more manufacturing back in the United States. I think it's very important. I mean, you guys aren't in the military, but everything that he and Pete Hex said of the military is 100% accurate. It was a mess with the, with the DEI and the unneeded unwanted hiring. So he's doing a really good job with the military. I think sometimes he oversteps his boundaries because he's a billionaire. He thinks he can like have an opinion on everything. I think the only way to have an opinion, everything is to actually go do it. You know, the fireman, the only person who should be able to tell a fireman what to do are the actual firemen, you know, the teachers, truck drivers. I like how he tells the truth and what he's thinking and how he feels. And unlike other politicians are all just telling everyone what they think they want to hear or they're sugarcoating things. If the economy was better, I would give him an A. I'm an A plus actually. I think he learned a lot in his first term, especially about who to surround himself with. I think in his first term he surrounded himself with a lot of people that were really rhinos, they had an agenda. And now he surrounded himself with people that actually believe in his agenda. All the fraud that's been exposed. I love the America first. When you think about over the years, just the trillions and trillions that we spent around the world and what that's done to our own, not taking care of our own country. I love that we're energy independent. I completely support the war in Iran. If it wasn't stopped under Trump, I think years down the road there would have been a lot of trouble. His positive, his grade has exposed. All he's done to earn his grade is exposed the corruption in the government. It's important, but in my day to day functions and how I view things as an American, it's not that important, you know, but it just seems like the, the media is forcing it down our throats to make it something, you know, seem like, you know, like it has some grandiose purpose in our lives, but it really doesn't. When you hear things like that, do you See any like crumbling in the Fox audience at all or not crumbling? Is there, are they starting to turn? Are they starting to feel betrayed? Or is the Fox audience kind of locked in like this A and B group? Like are they the 32% that stick with Trump no matter what? Or are they the kinds of people who start to get frustrated with how things are going in the country?

Jessica Tarlov (68:18)

So the Fox audience is very broad and I think it's hard to make a generalization about it in that sense. And I will say that a lot of the die hard MAGA base thinks that we're like msnbc, right?

Sarah Longwell (68:36)

Oh, I know, I hear it all the time. Yeah, like you guys, they don't. You didn't.

Jessica Tarlov (68:40)

And it's not even because I exist. Right. It's because someone would dare to mention that a tariff is actually a tax on the American consumer. There's an interesting thing that goes on where you, you can see a direct reaction to something that a Fox host says, to getting a change in policy. Right. Like all of that must be quite strategic. Brian Kilmeade, for instance, who hosts Fox and Friends, big supporter of Ukraine. That is a platform that he can use to make sure that we don't completely abandon our Friends and pick the wrong side of that battle. You've seen Laura Ingraham publicly questioning about the war in Iran, which was a big deal that, you know, she came out in her opening monologue and said like, was President Trump misled about this? Like, how is it possible that it wasn't the first on the list of potential things that could happen, that the Strait of Hormuz would be shut down and that they would then be able to charge a toll of up to $2 million per tanker.

Sarah Longwell (69:49)

I know what you're saying that like it's important that she's even questioning it. But the extent to which these guys question Trump by being like, he can never fail, he can only be failed by people talking to him.

Jessica Tarlov (69:58)

I mean, it links back to the entire conversation that we've been having that we having, which is how do you affect people and open minds. I always say open minds, not necessarily change them, but you know, put a little light bulb flickering up there that something isn't going right. And Donald Trump is never going to blame himself for anything. It is impo. He is too narcissistic. It is impossible. I don't think the man has any moments of self reflection except for when he's joking around sometimes, you know, and can say stuff like, oh, that was a little, you know, Whatever he said about, like, doordash grandma, right, like, oh, that was a little tacky or whatever, but, like, that's as good as you're gonna get. So I think that everyone is just working within the realities of the world that we live in. And you have a lunatic, narcissistic president who will only change course if there is somebody else who can take the fall for it. That's what happened with immigration, right? Well, we can get Kristi Noem and Greg Bevino out. Stephen, safe. By the way, that the first comment was, you know, Stephen was right. I was almost like, paralyzed by that. I do hear that all the time that Stephen Miller is like, you know, really the brains behind the operation, which I think is a major failing of the administration. And that 32% thinks is such a fantastic thing. But it's going to have to be somebody else's fault that any of this goes wrong. It is Pam Bondi's fault, right, that the Epstein files were mishandled, that she gives a shitty interview, that she said, you know, Dow $50,000 instead of points and humiliated him in that hearing. It's not about him. It's certainly not about him picking the wrong people. And so if you give me a couple of crumbs, you know what I can do? I can take those quotes and I can read them out loud, and I can read them to the 4 million people who are watching the first time. And then the millions more that are going to see a clip recycled to show that there are real cracks in the Trump coalition. It doesn't mean that that 32% is leaving. They will die with him right there. The Fifth Avenue, he could shoot anyone on Fifth Avenue. He could invade anywhere. He could build a ballroom, he could fire your mom, he could fire you. It doesn't matter. But those cracks and amplifying them, no matter how, no matter what language is used to make them, they matter. And that's how we got to this 32%. So that, that's my feeling about.

Sarah Longwell (72:26)

Yeah, so I think that's a good explanation. And I, I, I, I, I get, I, I get a little bit of two minds on this because on, there's one part of me that's like, of course we should expect better. And of course, like, the people who are cheering for him relentlessly got us to this place and helped sort of walk people into all of this. On the other hand, I do know from a communication standpoint that the credibility of messengers matters a great deal. And so the fact is, if you want people who are huge Trump supporters to start to sour on him. You need other people who are huge Trump supporters to show that they are souring on him or that they don't agree with something that he's doing. And so you are probably right that for an actual, from an actual impact standpoint, and not like a moral one, but like an impact standpoint, Laura Ingram saying something negative about Trump is a million times more effective than somebody like me who, you know, has been from the, never drunk from the jump on this stuff. And so I see that.

Jessica Tarlov (73:25)

So, and it's just, it's little moments. And then this is one of the things that I think is actually good about the way the media ecosystem is right now. I think a lot of it is bad. The algorithms are poisoning us. Mine is my Twitter feed is like the strangest blue pilled, red pilled mix. But the fact that so many people can know what Sarah Longwell is saying and what Jessica Tarlov is saying and what Laura Ingraham is saying and that all those things can be mashed up together I think is awesome and really important for telling the whole story of what the Trump era looks like. Because all of these threads really matter. And amplifying these cracks and what you hear in these kinds of focus groups are the only way you're going to get a fleshed out reflection of how deeply politically complicated the Trump era is and what it portends for what comes next. Because, you know, we're just starting to really talk about it and you know, the jockeying, is it Marco Rubio, is it J.D. vance or whatever? Like, we have no idea what is going to happen. You're probably going to have like a Tucker Carlson on a debate stage. You're going to have, you know, Candace Owens doing something if she's, you know, not in a French prison for what she says about Brigitte Macron. Like, you know, it is going to be a wild ride. And it's going to be a wild ride on the left too.

Sarah Longwell (74:51)

Jessica, trail off. This was so fun. It's just so fun to talk to you and think through these things. Thank you so much for coming and listening to the voters.

Jessica Tarlov (74:58)

Thank you for having me.

Sarah Longwell (74:59)

Thanks to all of you for listening to another episode of the focus group podcast. We'll be back next week. Don't forget to go rate review us, subscribe. Do all the things. Talk to you guys.

Jessica Tarlov (75:09)

Keep clicking.

Sarah Longwell (75:11)

Bye.

Jessica Tarlov (75:11)

Bye.