← The Focus Group Podcast
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- [00:00]
Paula Zahn
Hi, I'm Paula Zahn. Announcing the launch of on the Case, the podcast. Experience the most dramatic true crime investigations in a whole new way. Hear from loved ones on a relentless quest for justice and interviews with the detectives who pieced together the mystery. On the Case with Paul is on the podcast, premiering Wednesday, October 1st. Download it wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [00:30]
Sarah Longwell
Foreign and welcome to the focus group podcast. I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark. And this week we're dealing with what has been the biggest story in America for the last two weeks, the assassination of Charlie Kirk. A couple of days after Kirk's death, we had a conversation on this show about people's fears about political violence. That was kind of an ad hoc. We just threw it together. But today I want to have a longer conversation about Kirk's legacy on the right and how his death will, I think, reverberate through politics in the years ahead. In the last week, there was a public memorial service for Charlie Kirk that was widely attended by prominent folks on the right, including the president, which had some interesting clues for where that movement goes from here. Today we're going to hear from Gen Z conservatives who were, you know, Kirk's main audience about how they're processing his death, how they view his legacy, and who they think may pick up that mantle on the right. My guest today is Will Sommer, who listeners of this show know has been out on the right wing media beat. He is the author of our newsletter at the Bulwark, False Flag. He has been doing unbelievable work for us. We're so glad he's here and I'm glad he's here today on the show. Hey, Will.
- [01:58]
Will Sommer
Hey. Thanks for having me.
- [01:59]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, we were talking about it right before the show how you are just crushing it for us. Your newsletter is just a must read. I actually wanted to ask you, you, like me, kind of grew up on the center, right? I was interested just because maybe some of our audience doesn't know you as well. Like what is your background that led you to become kind of a chronicler of the right wing as it exists today versus maybe how we came up.
- [02:26]
Will Sommer
Yeah, sure. I mean, maybe I'm deeply emotionally disturbed or something at the root of it. But I think my background is, you know, I grew up in Texas in a sort of like business Republican, you know, Mitt Romney esque family. You know, there was a lot of conservative media to be had in my family. It was a lot of like listening to Ayn Rand on road trips when I was a Kid and stuff like that.
- [02:47]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah.
- [02:47]
Will Sommer
And so, you know, I grew up as, like, a pretty kind of mainline Republican, but, like, very passionate about it. I mean, listening to Charlie Kirk and his life as a teen, I saw a lot of similarities in terms of, like, the passionate consumption of Rush Limbaugh, for example. And then there were kind of a combination of factors in the late George W. Bush administration when I was in high school, Things like the Iraq war, the kind of the push against gay marriage. And I had some gay friends, and I started being like, well, wait a minute. And then also I would say, like, a family friend of ours was a state representative and he was running for state senate, and he lost the primary to Dan Patrick, who was at the time a talk radio host, now is the Lieutenant governor of Texas. And I was like, that guy is totally nuts. You know, if this is the way the Republican Party is going, I mean, it's not for me. But at the same time, I still, like, just love consuming this content. Like, this was when Ben Shapiro was making a big deal about being a virgin, when he was kind of just starting out. And, I mean, it was all these, like, kind of crazy characters. And so I kept up with it. And then obviously, kind of right wing media really came to the fore in 2016, and so I started writing about it.
- [03:45]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, that's interesting. I guess maybe I didn't realize how much younger you are than I am, which is distressing to me since you were in high school with George W. Okay, all right, so let's talk about Charlie Kirk, because Charlie Kirk's quite a bit younger than I am. Like, Charlie Kirk, for me, is not a contemporary figure. Even Ben Shapiro is a little young. Like, I was raised on, certainly read Olive, Ayn Rand, although nobody forced me to. Nobody forced it on me in the car. I consumed it willingly as a high school and maybe early college student. But, you know, back then it was much more Jonah Goldberg, and it was the Weekly Standard, and it was the guys at NRO that I would say were more formative. And there were sort of heterodox thinkers like Christopher Hitchens and Camille Paglia. Like, those tended to be sort of my formative people. And I've been thinking since Kirk's murder kind of what it would have been like had I grown up with not this sort of intellectual, more heady conservatism, but like, with Charlie Kirk and somebody like him in my ears.
- [04:53]
Will Sommer
Yeah. I mean, I think one thing that struck me, and this relates to what you're saying, is that watching all These Charlie Kirk clips, often, kind of the fundamental argument at the core of what he was bringing to college campuses is a lot of, like, kind of old talk radio talking points that were repeated a lot about affirmative action, various other things. But he was successful because these college kids were just, like, completely unexposed to conservative arguments, and so he could just wipe them out. And they was like, oh, geez, you know, and they wouldn't have any response to that because they had never heard it before for. But I think you're right. I mean, I. I certainly come from a conservative intellectual tradition that I think was not quite as elevated as your own. You know, getting a lot of Rush Limbaugh, a lot of Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, certainly. I think Charlie Kirk updated that for the Trump era, where it's much more like the owning and like, a lot more incendiary than conservative pundits of the past.
- [05:40]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. And I'll say maybe with an element of added cruelty. And when you say updated for the Trump era, I think what I hear is that's because the cruelty became a real selling point. And Ben Shapiro kind of had his own version of this. Like, you know, facts, don't care about your feelings, even though these are the most aggrieved people ever who have so many feelings. You talked a little bit about reading about Charlie Kirk, like, what was his origin story? He's only 31 years old, but why don't you just do a quick brief? Who was this guy? Because I do think people now are coming to him maybe for the first time in a lot of ways, and just they're imbibing him through his most incendiary clips, whereas maybe on the right, they're engaging with him in his most lovely clips, like when he was his best version of himself, because he does have that version. But what was your impression of him, and where did he come from?
- [06:30]
Will Sommer
Yeah, sure. I mean, so his origin story is kind of a very classic young Republican origin story. He grew up in the suburbs outside of Chicago. He would listen to a ton of Rush Limbaugh in high school and sort of thought, I'm looking around. No one else is conservative. How do I bring this kind of mix of entertainment and politics that I get from Rush Limbaugh, and how do I adapt that to a younger audience? And so I think in roughly 2012, he starts turning Point and is really embraced by elderly, wealthy donors because he had a pitch that I think, you know, watching the memorials, watching other speeches people have given about him since he died, there's A lot more. This idea of making young people Republicans outside of, like, very blazers and pearls country club set seemed unlikely, but it was also something that people said, well, if he can do it, yeah, sure, I would love to throw millions of dollars at that effort. And so that's what happened. And so he transforms it from kind of this Tea Party type organization to the Trump era, where it becomes really a wing of Trumpism. He's very close to the Trump family. He throws these big parties, these big conventions. And I guess the other thing I would add is, understandably, after the assassination, I think a lot of people on the right have really sainted him and he was seen as this universally beloved figure, but really he like much more, I guess, in the mix, much more controversial. I mean, people saw him, you know, number one, even people on the right, as sort of like an administration stooge on things like the Epstein files, where suddenly he reverses course and says, you know, after Trump called him, you know, there's gonna be no more talking about Epstein. All these different things. He was much more like in the mix. In the weeks up to his death, Laura Loomer was attacking him. And so he was not really sort of this universally beloved figure, but he's obviously a very big deal on the right, and. And I think there's a lot of polls suggesting that, you know, it was not like he turned all young people into Republicans, but he certainly managed to become really ubiquitous on social media in a way that I think made being a young Republican seem more reasonable than it once had.
- [08:18]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. This show is sponsored by Mint Mobile. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, and no bs. Or way better than my kids saying no. Ditch overpriced wireless and their jaw dropping monthly bills, unexpected overages and hidden fees. Plans start at $15 a month at Mint. That's good. All plants come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan to bring your phone number along with your existing contacts. Ready to say yes to saying no? Make the switch to mintmobile.com the Focus Group. That's mintmobile.com the Focus Group. Upfront payment of $45 is required, equivalent of $15 a month limited time. New customer offer for the first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on the unlimited plan. Taxes and Fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Let's get into the Gen Z focus groups. So we did a couple of groups for this show with similar but slightly different screens. The common denominator is that everyone you're going to hear today identifies as a conservative. All are Gen Z, and all but one of them voted for Donald Trump in 2024. We started these groups by asking people whether they had engaged with Charlie Kirk's content and how he had impacted their politics. Let's listen. That guy was so good at rage baiting people. I've never seen someone be more proficient in the language of rage baiting. That guy come to campus. Like, the laughing he would do is people throw insults and comments at him. They even just got more mad and more mad.
- [10:11]
Gen Z Conservative 1
And people coming up and talking to.
- [10:14]
Sarah Longwell
Him like he does a fantastic job.
- [10:16]
Gen Z Conservative 1
At keeping himself composed. Correct me if I'm wrong, like the worst and most publicized assassination since mlk. And for so many young people, even if you don't support Charlie Kirk, this is somebody that we all almost had like a parasocial relationship to.
- [10:32]
Gen Z Conservative 2
And I would really applaud him for actually spending the majority of his purpose is hearing the other side, which is something I think liberals need because all they want to do is tell their opinion and shove it down our throat without wanting to hear our side. So I think he was actually the closest outlet, I think, for liberals or moderates to maybe turn conservative or turn right wing, which.
- [10:55]
Sarah Longwell
Which I respect him a lot for.
- [10:56]
Gen Z Conservative 2
Because I don't know if I could do the same.
- [10:58]
Sarah Longwell
So.
- [10:58]
Gen Z Conservative 3
But I really say he had a huge impact on the young men around me. Like my first boyfriend, he was a huge follower of Charlie Kirk. And this is in like super liberal Massachusetts where, like, everyone's a liberal. Yeah, he had a huge impact on making more young men conservative.
- [11:15]
Gen Z Conservative 2
All of his interviews, he talks about faith, family, country, in that order. And so you're seeing that play out. I think a lot of us, like those of us that I know with kids that day, we just wanted to be home with our kids. And like, yeah, the political stuff was happening, but it was sort of in the background about, like this just happened. This is terrifying. What does this mean? You know? And you've seen a lot of his videos circulating even more than before. I was kind of a mediocre follower, didn't agree with everything he said, but, you know, I appreciated and respected what he was doing in his movement and so it affected me. And, you know, going to church this past Sunday, seeing how much more packed it Was, I mean, I think his legacy really was that of faith first. And it's woken a lot of at least young people up, I think spiritually.
- [12:06]
Sarah Longwell
Which I'm sure he'd be proud of.
- [12:09]
Gen Z Conservative 4
It's reached a point where it's less about how do we actually improve America, but more so who just gets to be right or who gets to win, you know, the argument. He wasn't trying to win, he was just trying to get people thinking. And in that regard, I think that went a long way for citizens where even people who came with hatred in their hearts left a lot more mild mannered, a lot more understanding because they realized it's not about who wins, it's about what actually like benefits themselves and those around them, which I think goes back to also the Christian principles, where again, it goes to the last shall be first, the first shall be last. He wasn't trying to win the argument. He was trying to put others in a position where they could help themselves and each other. I think it's going to be the major lasting tactical implication of what he's done is removing the veil of fear for a lot of younger people with conservative politics. So, yes, I hope folks get more drawn towards their faith and their God and all that. But I think on a very tactical level, what we're going to see more of is just the reduction in fear of people specifically on the conservative side of the aisle speaking their views and not being afraid of being shut down. And I think that's where he's been just so, so hyper effective. And you see all these young high school students, junior high students, college students and all that that are just out there just ripping it now. When I was in school, for the two and a half seconds I was in college and then also in high school, you aren't going to catch any of the conservatives dead out there at Central California School talking about conservative politics because you're just going to get completely raked over the coals.
- [13:42]
Sarah Longwell
Will one of the things that I think has been replete throughout social media and on the right is this sentiment of you don't know what you've unleashed, you don't know what you've done. And I guess that's in there a little bit in these comments. This idea that these kids felt like part of the legacy of Charlie Kirk is that there was going to be this rising up of more young conservatives. Do you think that's real and true? Like, I mean, it saw somebody there compare it to the Martin Luther King Jr. Assassination. Is it resonant? On that level, is it excusing the pun? Like, is it a turning point of some kind?
- [14:22]
Will Sommer
It's hard to know at this point. Right. You know, on one hand, I do think, obviously this was an enormous national news event, and I think it created a lot of sympathy for both Charlie Kirk and Turning Point USA and sort of Trumpism more broadly. I mean, look, I think the memorial was very well handled. I think there's been a lot. The left has not come off looking great amid this, you know, in part because of these random people on TikTok, you know, sort of rejoicing in the assassination. And so that obviously is not the fault of the Democratic Party. I think a lot of people are seeing this on social media and going, oh, geez, you know, I don't like that. You know, one thing that struck me about these focus groups, the young woman talking about her ex boyfriend who was in liberal Massachusetts, and Charlie Kirk really stuck out for him. I think Charlie Kirk was this model, particularly because he was just everywhere on social media. So if you were a young man or a young woman who's feeling like a little annoyed with PC culture in the Biden administration, you saw him as an alternative model. And he wasn't like a total right wing nut. He wasn't like a Charlottesville guy, he wasn't an old guy. And so you could see, oh, you know, maybe I could be a Young Republican and it wouldn't be so bad.
- [15:27]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah. What did you make of the memorial service? Because I think it was. It was kind of part funeral and part religious revival. And obviously, because there were so many members of the Trump cabinet there, it also felt, I think to some people, political and like, you know, there's that key moment where Erica Kirk forgives the shooter, which was like a statement of profound grace and I think, an embodiment of Christian principles, only to be followed up by Donald Trump. To say one thing that Charlie Kirk and I didn't have in common was I do hate my enemies and I do want to see, you know, the worst for them which one of the tricks of MAGA or Trumpism is that Erica Kirk and Donald Trump can have those competing, contrasting sentiments and yet feel very much bonded on the same side together. And like, I think people both took her grace and were like, yes, that's right. And then heard Trump say what he did and they laughed and they cheered and was like, that's right, too. That's kind of the trick of MAGA is being able to fuse those two seemingly disparate worldviews. Together. But what did you make of the memorial service?
- [16:46]
Will Sommer
I think religion is such a huge aspect of how Charlie Kirk is being remembered. And I think what the right is sort of hoping to get out of this, out of the legacy, which is there's a lot of talk about there's gonna be a national revival. I mean, certainly at the memorial, people constantly said this, this is a revival meeting. There's going to be a huge outbreak of religiosity and sort of specifically Protestant evangelicalism at the same time. The Trump family and, you know, people like Stephen Miller seem pretty uninterested in the religious aspects of it. You know, at one point, this pretty prominent Turning point host tweeted, you know, gosh, it sure would be nice if the Trump family got saved tonight. So, you know, she's basically saying, the guy who is sort of at the center of this thing doesn't really believe in about half of what we're talking about here. And so, you know, you saw that tension there with the, the pastors who were coming up and saying, you know, stand up if you want to, you know, be saved by Jesus Christ right now, or the Erica Kirk forgiveness message. And then at the same time, you had people like Stephen Miller or Trump getting up and saying, you know, this is about vengeance. We're going to crush our enemies. But as you said, I mean, we can look at it from the outside and see the contradictions there. But, you know, it's not like people really came away, I think, on the right saying, oh, you know, Donald Trump really ruined the mood there. It's kind of this whole package of this kind of angry evangelicalism. But also, you know, the idea of, you know, well, the wife can forgive. This is this more feminine side, that's okay for her personally. But meanwhile, we're going to use this to crush liberals.
- [18:07]
Sarah Longwell
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- [20:02]
Gen Z Conservative 5
Every conflict that has happened has just further proved that this is a spiritual war above everything else. Anyone who cheered at the Charlie Kirk assassination when they were there, like, I don't think those were human cheers. I think there has been trauma and hurt to these people that, that's the devil's playground.
- [20:22]
Gen Z Conservative 1
I started an online community about 10 years ago. You can argue I'm chronically online. And a good majority of these people in this group are actually LGBT and trans themselves. And I kind of have to stay closeted because anytime I even say something remotely like, for example, like saying that people gloating about Charlie Kirk's assassination was horrible, they straight up think that pretty much any moderate Republican is an actual Nazi. And this is the type of rhetoric that's. If I was watching cnn, msnbc, all the, you know, I was stuck on Blue sky all day, I'd be thinking the same thing, you know, like it's all, you know, and then. And this is why these type of things happen where Charlie Ker got assassinated because they literally think that any right winger or Trump voter is, is an actual unironic, Nazi, racist, anti Semitic, so on and so forth. I don't want to sever any friendships because I've seen family, I have extended family that refuses to talk to my mother or myself just because of our politics. And I think that conservatives are a lot more open to Be able to talk to the opposing side than the other way around. Immediately after he was shot, there was a gentleman who turned around and cheered with his arms raised. That was one of the most despicable, evil things I've ever seen. I mean, I think that just goes to show that just how much that majority of the left honestly feels no regard or sympathy at all. I mean, I have. I have a lot of friends that are left, as I have friends that are trans. And one of their first reactions to it was, like, immediately when it happened, when the news broke, was like, only good Nazis. A dead Nazi. You know, I'm like, charlie Kirk, I hate to say, is like, one of the most milquetoast, kind of like moderate Republicans there are. Like, look at Nick went, as you know, on the far right, like, you can arguably say, like, some of his views are, you know, according to Nazism.
- [22:16]
Gen Z Conservative 6
Unfortunately, a lot of these young people live on social media, and they're hearing day in and day out the same things from their favorite creators. Some they promote peace. Others promote hatred of who they perceive as the enemy. Charlie Kirk's death was celebrated, which I find wholly disgusting. Regardless of your spiritual, religious, moral background, celebrating a person's death is just plain wrong.
- [22:44]
Gen Z Conservative 2
Regardless of who that person was, whether.
- [22:46]
Gen Z Conservative 6
Or not you agreed with them, politically, spiritually, whatever, celebrating their death is wrong. There may be a few exceptions, like, you know, Hitler, but I do see some positive shifts, but I also see some negative shifts. And those negative ones do concern me, But I think all we can do is hold fast to our beliefs and pray and try to influence for the better. I think things like social media and also Hollywood have desensitize young people to violence and death. And therefore, young people have lost the respect for the care of human life and how each human's life is valuable and that committing violence on another person like that is not okay.
- [23:43]
Gen Z Conservative 2
There is a sentiment on the left that if you compare somebody to Hitler, you compare somebody to the worst of the worst, then there's a justification for, like, oh, if you had the chance.
- [23:54]
Sarah Longwell
To kill Hitler, wouldn't you?
- [23:56]
Gen Z Conservative 2
And even in some of the conversations I've had with friends of friends of mine who are on the left, they get upset when I'm like, you know, charlie Kirk is dead. This is something that we should mourn. And, you know, they're like, yeah, but he was horrible.
- [24:08]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, but no, now that we've been living in this conversation for a couple of weeks, there's a few things that I just hear get conflated and this is. I've seen a lot of this on social media. Social media, which is the difference between, hey, Charlie Kirk said lots of things I disagree with, and I thought they were pretty awful and incendiary and maybe debased the discourse that is different from celebrating his death. But, like, there was actual celebrations of his death tour or even just people being like, who cares? Which we've been very clear on this channel, to a person sort of pushing back, even on the idea that we just sort of dismiss this as, you know, like, young man was murdered and we should mourn it not just for him and his family, because we, too, are human beings, but also for the country and, like, where we are in how we're handling our political disagreements. And so I think that a lot of people on the right would say they've sort of embraced their own form of cancel culture around this. You know, I very much understand being angry at people who are celebrating the death of somebody to whom you looked as an intellectual hero or even just somebody who, like, you felt, had a parasocial relationship with. But maybe talk a little bit about how this has impacted sort of the way the right and the left are working together and how the right has sort of shifted its views both on free speech and on cancel culture, which they have vowed that they were against. But in this moment, it's really changed how they're reacting to those things.
- [25:44]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, I. I think we can see from those clips the effect that these sort of disconnected, random liberals on TikTok celebrating the assassination or criticizing Charlie Kirk afterwards has had on the right. And that I think this has really stuck with people, this idea that the people around me wouldn't mind if I got shot because I'm a Republican. And I think sometimes, you know, I think they can overstate the importance of that because, again, we have not seen, you know, major liberal media figures saying that or politicians. And it's sort of, you know, it's sort of the libs of TikTok effect where you find, like, the absolute craziest person. You know, some of these tweets people were looking at had, like, two faves on them, and they would say, oh, my gosh, you know, the left is out of control. And so I think people can overstate that. But I think emotionally, it's clearly sinking in with people and something that they're treating as, you know, like a really big deal, that, like, the. The left has gone mask off, that they want a civil war. I mean, there's this sense on the right this was building even before the assassination, but sort of that we need to set aside the old rules. The progressives have gone mad. And so things like free speech, you know, after Jimmy Kimmel was pulled off the air, I believe some senators were saying, you know, yeah, the First Amendment in the past, this was a good thing. But we're in kind of a unique situation here. You know, there was a sense that Charlie Kirk's assassination marked a war. And so this represents sort of a wartime rules.
- [27:01]
Sarah Longwell
Right. Which is nuts. I mean, one of the things that bothered me the most in the moments immediately following this, like, the way that Trump behaved, not just at the. Not just at the funeral, by saying, like, I do hate my enemies and want them to suffer, which is a really remarkable thing for a President of the United States to say. But we've gotten to this place where the immediate rush to sort of brand the shooter as left wing. Oh, and, man, did they want a trans angle. Getting a trans angle was really important to the right, where there was then a corresponding movement to sort of brand him as a, like, Nick Fuentes type griper. And, like, ultimately, as we've seen more of it, it seems like you get a kid raised in a conservative family who had a lot of access to guns, a lot of training with guns, and then found himself in a situation where he had fallen in love with somebody who was transitioning, then took, like, a very violent, insane route toward solving the problem of, you know, Charlie Kirk said things that were hateful, and this is what he was going to do about it. It doesn't appear that he had any ties to any organized group on the left. And so, like, what do you make of both this impulse that people have now to want to control the narrative over who people are in these cases, but also, like, is there any room for the truth? Like, is there any room for us to have an honest conversation about what's really happening? Like, it just feels like for all the talk in these groups about civil war, and the left wanted a civil war, it seemed to me a lot of people in the MAGA world were itching for a reason to feel like they could punch back and say that we were in a civil war. And it just feels very scary to have us in this back and forth of, no, your side did this, your side did this. Like, where does that end? That's like the worst. It's like an existential question to ask you, but it is something I've been thinking about a lot of.
- [29:16]
Will Sommer
No, I don't think it ends anywhere Good. I mean, I, I think as you're stating it like that, it struck me that, you know, for at least the past few weeks now, kind of our main form of national dialogue has been over shootings and sort of what is the political valence of each shooting? I'm obviously recording this on the day of the shooting at the Ice center in Dallas. And so this idea of, okay, you know, oh, we got the name, you know, we got to go find out the motivation. I mean, look, we haven't even seen what, if anything, the Trump administration is cooking up in terms of sort of what they feel is like the Kirk assassination justified crackdown on the what Stephen Miller is up to or what Pam Bondi is up to. And it seems like something's coming and already we have a new shooting. And so I think it's not a good sign. I mean, it's obviously signed a very polarized and contentious politics. What I also thought was interesting about these focus groups, and this is why I think in part they're so valuable, is you can say, I mean, these are people who are obviously very steeped in right wing media and culture. They also, they come across as very normal for the most part, well meaning people. And I think it's always interesting to see how they interact in that world. I know tons of Democrats and they were very upset by this as well. And so I think that's a useful insight too, and maybe a little more heartening.
- [30:21]
Sarah Longwell
You're right to point that out because one of the differences between Gen Z and sometimes the older Trump supporters is that these guys all seem to have communities that included a lot of people who did not think the same way that they did. And in fact, in a lot of cases, it seemed like maybe they felt like they were the outlier in their more sort of progressive community because they're just younger and they're just around more people. Whereas as you get older, they become more hardened and their social circles aren't so big.
- [30:49]
Paula Zahn
Hi, I'm Paula Zahn announcing the launch of on the Case the podcast. Experience the most dramatic true crime investigations in a whole new way. Hear from loved ones on a relentless quest for justice. And interviews with the detectives who pieced together the mystery. On the Case with Paul is on the podcast premiering Wednesday, October 1st. Download it wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [31:20]
Sarah Longwell
The other thing is that there was a genuine striving in the groups around faith because Turning Point USA was very explicit in its promotion of Christian and socially conservative worldview. And it was clear that many of the People in the focus groups had been products of that, either directly or indirectly. So let's listen to how they talked about their faith and about their general orientation toward the culture and toward family life.
- [31:48]
Gen Z Conservative 5
I brought up Riley Gaines earlier. She used to be an Olympic athlete. I think she stands for what I believe as a woman growing up with. Been building a family. I've been listening to her, and she's pregnant right now. She was friends with Erica Kirk, and she took it really hard. And she's posted on social media a few times about Charlie's death, and you can see the emotion and that she was truly one of his close friends. So that was nice to see that kind of raw emotion in someone, hopefully reaching out to people who are just desensitized to what happened. But she's been an influencer that I've been watching for years now. Yeah, I think she just really stands for this redirection of what feminism means and where we've kind of taken it because it has gotten so obscure. And she's very blunt with saying, like, I don't want to be a girl boss, house, quote, unquote. Like, I think that feminism has kind of taken that name and made it into a very selfish thing. Whereas being a homemaker and being a wife and taking care of the home, like, I'm sitting in a house right now that my husband pays for, you know, doing what I want to do, talking to people. Right after this, I wake my two daughters up from their nap, and we're gonna go out for ice cream before my husband gets home. Like, I don't see anything that is more free than that. And I had a hard time kind of of grasping what really I wanted to stick to in my political views, to align with my family values. And she was a really big voice for me in that. And I think every girl and woman should be listening to her period.
- [33:20]
Gen Z Conservative 1
I think just the promotion of promiscuity with, you know, dating apps and social media is corrupting our society, and I think it's tearing families apart. I think that so many people didn't. They have, like, this fear of missing out, that they don't want to commit to a monogamous, serious relationship. And I think our country's godless. I'm a Christian, if that isn't a surprise. Yeah, I think we need God in our country, and I'm really scared about the trajectory.
- [33:47]
Sarah Longwell
I think a lot of what you see politically and socially is an extension of the unimaginable social rot and religious rot that's been happening in America. I think narcissism is becoming more increasingly acceptable. Social isolation, mental health obviously, is an extension of that. And I think I'm kind of dissatisfied and I think a lot of people are with both sides. I think that was exemplified in the most recent assassination where, I mean, I, I've always been conservative, but I think two days ago it's just, I felt dissatisfied with both because I was raised Christian. I think a lot of people still in this country hold on to those as well. And I just think those values weren't exemplified in the way I thought they would or should be a couple of days ago.
- [34:35]
Gen Z Conservative 3
There's a huge rise in conservatism and religion, especially of young people like me, because, like, I'm a testament to that. And I can tell you, like there it's. Conservatism is rising with the younger generation. Like I can see at my school, I know plenty of people who a few years ago were like lesbians but are now becoming like Christians.
- [34:55]
Gen Z Conservative 6
A lot more women are deciding that they don't need to be the, the boss babe, and they are shifting more towards I just want to be a mom. I just want to be a wife. There's a bit of a shift back towards the nuclear family. Maybe not necessarily with like 16 kids, but more women are deciding that they.
- [35:11]
Sarah Longwell
Don'T want to be part of the workforce.
- [35:13]
Gen Z Conservative 6
And if a woman wants to be part of the workforce, that's fine, but if not, then that's fine too.
- [35:19]
Sarah Longwell
Is this widely representative of young conservatives or is this like a very specific cultural conservative strand? Like, what do you make of these types of young gen zers?
- [35:32]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, I think they're onto something here, at least in terms of, you know, young conservatives. I think this idea of like sort of a new interest in religion, I think this kind of idea that they're sort of fed up with contemporary society, with feminism. I think that's very much like messages I'm seeing on, on social media from young conservatives or, or in conservative media. It was interesting hearing, you know, how much of it was focused on, you know, I want to get into religion and I want to be a stay at home mom, for example, and the specific sort of influencers they picked out, like Riley Gaines, who sort of rose to prominence opposing trans women in sports. That was enlightening to me, I guess, in terms of seeing sort of the interplay between what these women want in their own lives and sort of the messages they're getting from Turning Point USA and organizations that. So, you know, I Think on one hand, it's a little ominous to hear. You know, already it feels like the country is so conservative, you know, electing Trump and things like this. I mean, then they're saying, you know, there's this huge wave of young conservatives coming down the pipe. And, you know, obviously that's anecdotal. I guess the other thing I would say is that I think often young Republicans were a little more secular, seemed a little more kind of like a CPAC policy crowd. And I think what Charlie Kirk keyed in on was this idea of being very openly religious that I think as we talked about, the right has really focused on in the aftermath of his murder.
- [36:49]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I worked right after college, I worked for a pretty conservative think tank. And a lot of the young men and women that I was around there were sort of Christian and Catholic conservatives, and they did have very, like culturally conservative views around marriage and family. And so I guess part of me was like, I don't know that I think this is that new. What feels new to me and different is that people like this who talked like this would have been the kind of people, I think in a different world who would have been like, I like Mike Pence. Mike Pence is a guy I would vote for. He shares my values. Whereas now people can sort of talk in this way and still be huge Trumpers, like, still be very maga. And you hear this a lot in focus groups or I hear it a lot is people being like, I don't approve of everything Trump does. I don't like many of the things that Trump says. But I think that one of the mistakes that pundits and observe political observers made was thinking that because people were Christians in this way, that they would reject Donald Trump, but they do not. And I think that part of me wants to always defend some people like this and be like, this is not white Christian nationalism. This is how socially conservative Christians sound. And I've been surrounded by people like this much of my life. I saw like a couple interesting thought provoking tweets after the memorial where I think it was Thomas Chatterton Williams was saying something to the effect of culturally, this is totally anathema to me. Like, I'd feel more comfortable in a foreign country where they don't even speak the same language than I would at this kind of revival, because I feel so culturally alienated from it. And there was part of me that was like, yeah, and that's one of the things that are is difficult for Democrats because the idea that this is really culturally Alien when this is a lot of people in this country, this might even be a majority of people in this country, you know, that's alien to you. Like, that is putting you out of touch with a lot of people you need to reach. On the other hand, there's a lot of people in my world like this. I loved this line a few years ago. I know plenty of people who a few years ago were like lesbians but are now becoming like Christians, as though those two things cannot coexist. I do have it on good authority one can be both lesbian and Christian. But, you know, I was around these people who told me things like they couldn't come to my wedding. Like, people I was friends with in this world, and they were like, I can't come to your wedding because it's sinful. Even though I was at all their weddings. And they all got married much younger because culturally they were much more socially conservative. And they do get married at 25 in a way that most of my friends didn't until they were in their early 30s. But, like, this is a real segment of the population and they are not thinking about these people like they're a threat is not correct. And yet these people who claim so much faith also are perfectly willing to embrace Donald Trump and everything he stands for, seemingly in contra their commitment to their religion. I'm not sure there's a question in there, but that is an observation that I have about how it's becoming more and more difficult to understand each other. But this is like a pretty mainstream view.
- [40:01]
Will Sommer
I think perhaps it goes back to the contradiction we talked about at the heart of the Charlie Kirk Memorial, where there's this message of forgiveness and having an open heart and, you know, welcoming people and then, you know, having Donald Trump say, and now let's crush our enemies. The same focus group where there's all this talk about, you know, Christianity and stuff like this, you also have a little later on talk about, like, the kind of right wing media figures they embrace, who I will say are not always, you know, sort of paragons of saintliness. That struck me as well.
- [40:29]
Sarah Longwell
Yeah, I think you can understand why people have a difficult time squaring the circle between sort of mainstream evangelicalism and MAGA and how those two worlds relate to each other.
- [40:43]
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- [41:14]
Sarah Longwell
So one figure on the right speaking of their media, diets and the influencers, which is a difference from when I was young. Like when I was young, there weren't these influencers all over the place telling them this is the way to live. This is how you should be thinking about this because Riley Gaines was a middling swimmer who basically became famous because she swam against Leah Thomas, who was a trans swimmer in Penn, which I actually think is one of the most egregious cases where you did have somebody who had been a male swimmer at Pennsylvania Transition and then become a female swimmer, which I do think sort of embodies the most extreme edge case of what is happening on sort of the trans sports issue. But it allowed Riley Gaines to become sort of a staple on Fox News and everything else as somebody who is opposed to this. Now she's just a right wing influencer, but Riley Gaines is nothing compared to what a lot of these, especially the men, are ingesting when it comes to sort of the Nick Fuentes, Andrew Tate side of things. Sort of the darker side of the mega manosphere. And one thing that's interesting is that Kirk was often at loggerheads with Nick Fuentes, the white supremacist content guy who's been getting a bigger and bigger platform among young people on the right. I think somebody in here mentioned him and said they call him a white supremacist or something. And I was like, he is openly hostile to Jews and to women. He hated Charlie Kirk for being what he saw as like an establishment that stooge, as you put it before. And some people in our focus groups were familiar with him and even fans. So let's listen to what that sounded like and who else these young gen zers are following these days.
- [42:59]
Gen Z Conservative 1
I've been following Nick Fuences since pretty much. He began his show in 2019. My best friend, who is Jewish and lost his sister in the shooting in Parkland was the one that introduced me to him. And over the past last six, seven years, kind of progressively have seen how they've censored him, they've debanked him, deplatformed him in every facet way and form, just for speaking against Israel's influence, the foreign lobby APAC on our country and how they've demonized him. And I think that he is severely underestimated by a lot of people both on the left and right, including Kirk himself. But I don't think anyone who actually sits down and listens to what he says and watches the show, especially for as long as we have, could say that he's anti Semitic or a Nazi. I think just because that you're acknowledging the fact that we have a foreign influence in our country. It was any other country, if it was Chinese people that had. What other foreign country has a pack a super PAC that donates to politicians on behalf of their interests. You replaced Israel with any other country and people would be livid that we have what essentially is foreign invaders, foreign influence. And I don't think that acknowledging that makes you an anti Semite. I don't think that makes you a Nazi. Nick has repeatedly said he disavows any kind of hatred, any kind of vile rhetoric such as that dehumanizes any race or Jews. And he has Jewish friends himself. So I think again, it's just a label that both the left and the right have put onto him to discredit him. And it's only backfiring because he's only getting more and more popular.
- [44:34]
Gen Z Conservative 7
I don't listen to Nick Fuentes, but I think to be very kind, he's a fake. I'm not going to give him any names as far as the left names, if you know what I mean. He does not deserve that. Nobody does, in my opinion. Except if you really are dead. And I don't think he is. But if you want a little more insight on that or I don't know if anybody listens to Kenda Zones. She had a pretty good piece about Nick Fuentes, which there's probably two sides to the story. That's just one episode I listened to and I was like, I don't know about that guy. But as far as influence, I know he's very influential. I do know that he has a huge following. A lot of young people, especially young men, follow him. But it seems like he's kind of getting into that Andrew Tate side of things, which, whatever. I mean, people like Andrew Tate also. I'm not the biggest fan, I guess, but it's to each their own. I'm not gonna. I, I hate it when people put labels on Nick Fuente has on androtate on people like that. It's why do they label them? And I think one of the reasons is they want to take away their voice.
- [45:48]
Gen Z Conservative 2
Everything I do is like independent. So I'll even listen to some Barry Weiss to get more of a like left wing perspective. I do listen to Ben Shapiro pretty much daily. Don't agree with Everything he says or stands for. But ultimately I know I'm going to get a pretty cut and dry version of the news listening to him. And I appreciate that when I'm scrolling.
- [46:07]
Gen Z Conservative 3
Social media, if you're looking for influencers, that had the major impact, especially on young men over here in like a liberal, like a highly liberal area to the point that it was like turning men conservative from about the ages, like 14, 18, I'd say biggest is definitely Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate. Like over here it was, it's like someone dropped a bomb here it was just boom. Everyone knew who he was. You either loved them or you hated them. And like a lot of my classmates just like really identified with their message and were like listening and tuning in. You could look over their phones and you'd see they were watching their TikToks. It was huge over here.
- [46:44]
Will Sommer
So there's this.
- [46:45]
Gen Z Conservative 1
Oh no.
- [46:46]
Sarah Longwell
Oh no. This is where I can't tell if I feel old or what. But like the idea that all the young men. And I know that this is becoming a thing, but I just, I think about my kids and I'm just like, you will never have a phone ever. Like you. I can censor my own kids. Still, this is, I'm still allowed to do that. But the idea that these are the people in all of these young people's ears is deeply frightening. There's this argument, including from some of these groups, that Charlie Kirk was actually a moderating influence on the right. I said this earlier and that more young people could go off into sort of like griper land. Do you think the Fuentes is in the Andrew Tate's the world knowing that those two people actually they're quite different. They're different strands of person. Do you think that that's where we're headed? Are they going to be more influential going forward?
- [47:40]
Will Sommer
You know, I think this was the most depressing part of the focus group for me. I mean, I think Charlie Kirk obviously was an enormous right wing media figure and with him gone, I think there's gonna be a lot of market share that's open. And especially because of this sense that you pointed out that I think people have of, you know, well, we tried the guy who would go and debate people and who was peaceful and who wasn't as far right as these other guys. And he was assassinated. And so I think that's going to drive people towards more extreme voices. I mean, it's also interesting the kind of equivocation people do about, I don't know why people are calling Nick Fuentes, a Nazi. I mean, he only marched in Charlottesville. He's constantly ranting about Jews and black people. The idea of also Andrew Tate's influence here, I think is really ominous. I mean, this is something we've seen for years about the popularity of Andrew Tate with, with like middle school age boys. You know, there's a back and forth later on in the focus group about, you know, aren't you a little concerned about Andrew Tate? I mean, the, the guy who's a fan is sort of like, well, I don't know his entire background. I don't know about these human trafficking cases essentially. And, you know, the idea of me being really into a YouTuber, not being like, well, let's look why this guy's facing rape and sex trafficking charges in multiple countries. I mean, it's just astounding. But I think that really is, I think, where right wing media is headed. And not just young men. I mean, there's one woman in the focus group who says, you know, yeah, I'm listening to, I think, like Ben Shapiro relative voices kind of in that position on the spectrum. And also Rolo Tomasi, who's like a hardcore, like men's rights guy. I mean, sort of like in the Andrew Tate level. And I was just like, holy moly. I think it also shows, obviously that, you know, Fox News and this stuff is like relatively irrelevant to these people. I mean, it's all social media and a lot of pretty extreme voices. So I thought this was pretty concerning.
- [49:21]
Sarah Longwell
When Bari Weiss is your left wing, like, you go to get your left wing news from Bari Weiss, you are in trouble. We are in trouble. It's interesting because part of you is like, well, they're sort of discerning and they understand that. They don't agree with everything. And yet to me, the thing that I hear the most is that they are being pushed to harder and harder extremes by the influencers, like the casual ways in which they drop Candace Owens, whatever. They're being exposed to the most racist, anti Semitic, anti women sort of rhetoric. I mean, Andrew Tate is a human trafficker. I mean, it is noxious stuff. And so the idea that Charlie Kirk was a relative moderate, when even to my ears, I don't know, I'm worried about whether or not the kids are going to be all right. Well. Worried about whether or not we're going to be all right.
- [50:14]
Will Sommer
Yeah. And obviously those two are linked. I think, think there's just like such a cesspool out there in the right wing media. Not all of it. But I mean, there are just some really vile characters on offer. And I think, you know, in the past, I would have included people like Nick Fuentes, Andrew Tate in that world, Candace Owens, you know, what she's putting out now as just like really beyond the pale. But these are some of just the absolute most popular people and really dynamic and really getting more and more audience. I mean, Nick Fuentes, even before the assassination, was really on a tear. I mean, he's, he just went on Patrick Bet David's podcast, which is very popular and is getting exposed to all these kind of different audiences. And so I think it's very concerning.
- [50:53]
Sarah Longwell
Okay, well, on that happy note, Will Sommer, thank you very much for joining us. And thanks to all of you for listening to another episode of the focus group podcast. Go out and turn your kids on to the focus group podcast. That is some good, wholesome listening. We will be back next week, but in the meantime, remember to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe. Subscribe to The Bulwark on YouTube and become a Bulwark plus member at the Bulwark.com See you guys next week.