S6 Ep47: Kyle Clark: Colorado's Mad Libs

Summary

Podcast Summary
The Focus Group Podcast – S6 Ep47: “Kyle Clark: Colorado's Mad Libs”
Date: June 27, 2026
Host: Sarah Longwell, Publisher of The Bulwark
Guest: Kyle Clark, Host of "Next with Kyle Clark" (9NEWS Denver)

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Episode Overview

This episode delivers a deep dive into Colorado politics as the state faces an unusually competitive slate of Democratic primaries and a Republican field marked by chaotic infighting. Host Sarah Longwell and guest Kyle Clark blend focus group reactions with journalistic analysis. They examine Democratic fatigue with longtime incumbents, the challenges facing Colorado’s Republican Party, and the evolving standards for political character and media coverage. The conversation also grapples with voters’ desire for “fighters” in today’s political climate and explores the consequences of anti-incumbent sentiment across the state.

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Main Discussion Themes & Key Insights

1. Lauren Boebert: Lower Standards and Growing Complexity

• Media Double Standards:
  • Kyle Clark notes that the Colorado press has historically "held Representative Lauren Boebert to a different standard than every other elected official in Colorado," explaining:

    “If we held her to the same standard as every other elected Republican and Democrat in Colorado, we would be here near nightly chronicling the cruel, false and bigoted things that Boebert says for attention and fundraising.” (03:15, Kyle Clark)

  • This double standard, according to Clark, gives habitual dishonesty a "bulk discount" in coverage.
• Boebert’s Evolution:
  • Clark recounts his interactions with Boebert, noting that she has learned the mechanics of Congress but still appeals to her outsider brand. He gives her rare credit for opposing Trump on the Epstein files and a major water project, stating:

    “She is more willing than any other Republican of the four in Colorado’s delegation to draw hard lines against Trump and say, 'I will not debase myself by doing that.'” (06:11, Kyle Clark)

• Gender and Standing Up to Trump:
  • Clark and Longwell discuss whether Boebert, Nancy Mace, and Marjorie Taylor Greene’s occasional opposition to Trump can be partly explained as a gender dynamic, with Boebert displaying a "vein" of standing up to powerful men (08:59, Kyle Clark).

2. Republican Gubernatorial Primary: Tall Tales, Media Frustrations

• Victor Marks’ Outlandish Claims:
  • Kyle Clark presses Republican gubernatorial candidate Victor Marks about his dubious resume (airstrikes, hostage rescues, etc.), refusing to gloss over lies:

    “Are we interested in the fact that this man describes his life story as a cross between Billy Graham and Rambo? Like, does that matter? Or are we just going to kind of gloss over that and be like, so, tell me about how we fund schools?” (14:55, Kyle Clark)

• The Challenge for Journalists:
  • Clark laments that chronic dishonesty from politicians overwhelms journalistic incentives to fact-check, leading to false equivalence between those who occasionally lie and those who do so routinely:

    "We give people a bulk discount in journalism for dishonesty and indecency. That’s just their brand." (13:58, Kyle Clark)

3. Democratic Governor Primary: Bennett vs. Weiser—Change vs. Experience

• Voters’ Mixed Feelings about Michael Bennett:
  • Focus group participants see Bennett as experienced but increasingly disconnected, with preferences ranging from keeping him in the Senate to desiring “new blood” in the governor’s mansion.

    “It just feels like someone who is actually interested in fighting back as opposed to Bennett, who just feels like he wants to sit there and…get what he thinks is coming to him.” (18:25, Focus Group)

  • Some wish he’d stay in the Senate; others describe him as the classic “career politician” (20:42).
• Why Is Bennett Running for Governor?
  • Kyle Clark attributes Bennett’s motivation to frustration with Senate gridlock:

    “He wants to leave the Senate because he hates it there. He said for years how much he doesn’t like it.” (22:46, Kyle Clark)

• Phil Weiser: The Fighter Appeal:
  • Many Democrats voice a thirst for a “fighter” to confront Trump, seeing Weiser’s litigation record as uniquely potent:

    “Just hearing what they [Weiser campaign] said, like, yes, I can fight Trump too. You also see him trying to fight on different ground where he’s saying, listen, we’re all sufficiently anti-Trump. Affordability is the problem.” (32:29, Kyle Clark)

• Core Litmus Test:
  • For many primary voters, the most important differentiator is perceived tenacity in the face of Trumpism rather than strict ideology.

4. Is Colorado a Blue State? Depends on GOP Competence

• Republican Problems:
  • The GOP field features bombastic, unqualified figures (Victor Marks, Scott Bottoms) and one credible candidate (Barb Kirkmeyer). Clark argues the lack of a pragmatic GOP and the state’s issue-driven split (liberal on candidates, conservative on ballot measures) leaves it “lean blue” only by default (26:24).

5. Senate Primary: Hickenlooper vs. Gonzalez—Generational and Ideological Change

• Anti-Incumbent & Age Sentiment:
  • A major theme emerges around desire for generational change. Many Democrats express fatigue with old, long-serving officeholders:

    “At 74, it’s just like, yeah, whatever. Like, I feel like we are kind of like, we need to take stances on stuff and just tired of having people are kind of like lame duck…” (39:22, Focus Group)

• Julie Gonzalez: Progressive—But Lacking Traction:
  • Despite an appetite for a new generation, focus group participants acknowledge Gonzalez’s limited exposure and resources, suggesting her campaign is mostly a protest vote (44:32, Kyle Clark).

6. House Primary: Diana DeGette Faces Unfamiliar Danger

• Focus Group Frustrations:
  • DeGette is criticized for being a safe-seat incumbent with minimal concrete accomplishments (47:31).
  • Challenger Malat Kiros is gaining traction with grassroots and DSA-aligned approaches, but her limited political experience is a question for voters (48:52, Kyle Clark).
• Incumbent Panic as Bellwether:
  • Clark notes that DeGette's negative campaigning and aggressive spending indicate internal polling is making her nervous (48:52).

7. Governor Polis’ Waning Reputation

• Voter Disappointment:
  • Once “heartthrob” of Colorado progressives, Governor Jared Polis has alienated many with his commutation of Tina Peters’ sentence and ambiguous policy moves.

    “If people are threatening your family, say that, you know, be honest.” (53:39, Kyle Clark) “When I talk to Colorado Democrats, they want him to pack up his stuff and move out of the House. They just want him to be gone.” (56:54, Kyle Clark)

• The Real Story:
  • Clark suggests Polis’s decisions stem from a combination of personal conviction and detachment from the Democratic base, rather than ulterior motives or Trump appeasement (56:41).

    “Jared Polis is the smartest person he’s ever met. ... I think the electorate has kind of shifted around him, and he has no interest in changing with the electorate.” (56:41, Kyle Clark)

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• On Boebert and Press Coverage (Kyle Clark):

  “If we held her to the same standard as every other elected Republican and Democrat in Colorado, we would be here near nightly chronicling the cruel, false and bigoted things that Boebert says for attention and fundraising.” (03:15)

• On The Challenge for Journalists (Kyle Clark):

  “We give people a bulk discount in journalism for dishonesty and indecency. That’s just their brand. ... Are we interested in the fact that this man describes his life story as a cross between Billy Graham and Rambo?” (13:58, 14:55)

• On Democratic Desire for Fighters (Sarah Longwell):

  “The big divide in people's appetite for Bennett vs Weiser seem to be that they all like Bennett fine, but like, he's been there a long time. And what they really want is someone who's going to come in and fight Trump.” (31:10)

• On Colorado's Political Identity (Kyle Clark):

  “Colorado could be a purple state or a purplish state with a competent Republican Party... But as long as the Republican primary electorate is not interested in those types of things or any kind of move to the center, then yeah, it’s a blue state.” (26:24)

• On Hickenlooper’s Role (Kyle Clark):

  “I would be hard pressed to say what he's done in the Senate. ... He's there.” (45:46)

• On Polis’ Relationship with Democrats (Kyle Clark):

  “When I talk to Colorado Democrats, they want him to pack up his stuff and move out of the House. … I think we might have just kind of reached the natural limits of what Jared Polis can buy with his personal wealth and not on the list is the respect of Colorado Democrats at the end of his term.” (56:54)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Lauren Boebert Discussion: 02:19–09:40
• Republican Gubernatorial Primary/Media Responsibility: 10:40–16:43
• Democratic Governor Primary (Bennett vs Weiser): 17:28–36:21
• Is Colorado a Blue State? 25:47–28:00
• Senate Primary (Hickenlooper vs Gonzalez): 36:50–46:19
• House Primary (DeGette and Challengers): 46:19–51:28
• Jared Polis’ Decline: 51:57–58:56

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Memorable Moments

• Victor Marks’ Debate Dodge:
  Clark’s confrontation with Marks about his “Rambo” claims and refusal to allow distraction tactics (11:39–13:16).
• Character vs Policy in Journalism:
  Clark’s reflection on the tension between covering lies and pivoting to “roads or schools.” (14:55)
• The Absence of Excitement:
  Clark remarks that among Colorado Democrats, “I have not met a single Democrat that is really excited about one of these two candidates for governor and thinks that the other would be a terrible governor.” (22:50)
• Voter Contradictions:
  Longwell observes focus group participants contradicting themselves—lamenting entrenched incumbents but hesitating to back unfamiliar challengers (41:13–41:38).

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Conclusion

This episode spotlights core tensions in Colorado’s Democratic primary season: deep skepticism toward longtime politicians; a preference for candidates who promise to “fight” Trump and the status quo; and the dilemmas both voters and journalists face sorting substance from spectacle. Through sharp focus group clips and candid analysis, Longwell and Clark reveal a state searching for authentic leadership while grappling with the limitations of its political bench.

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Listen to the full episode at The Bulwark
(Summary excludes advertisements and housekeeping segments)

Transcript

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[Kyle Clark]

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[Focus Group Narrator]

A steal by Henry who pulls his own collectible cup.

[Kyle Clark]

Collect one of nine legendary cups with a FIFA World cup meal. Participating McDonald's for a limited time while supplies last all rights reserve 2026 McDonald's at FIFA World Cup 2026 I've refer Michael Bennett as the cicada of confrontation. He's dormant. You don't see or hear from him for years and then he explodes in some furious confrontation.

[Sarah Longwell]

Hello everyone and welcome to the Focus Group podcast. I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark and this week we're going to Colorado. Colorado isn't much of a swing state anymore, but there are three longtime elected Democrats who are facing anti incumbent headwinds going into their June 30th 80th primary. You've got one of Colorado's U.S. senators running for governor and struggling to put away his primary opponent. The other senator is running for reelection at 74 years old and plenty of people in our focus groups are not happy about nominating him again. Same goes for a longtime representative from the Denver area. And even though Colorado is basically a blue state now, there are some Republican goings on that will be good for us to pick over two. My guest is going to be a real treat because he's covering these races in ways that I think a lot of people wish more journalists could cover politics. That guest today is Kyle Clark, host of Next with Kyle Clark on nine News in Denver. Hey Kyle, what's up?

[Kyle Clark]

I Sarah, thanks for the invite.

[Sarah Longwell]

So I want to start by asking somebody that I didn't mention in the intro. Prominent MAGA politician. You cover Lauren Boebert. You said back in 2021 that you and other Colorado journalists hold Lauren Boebert to a much lower standard than other politicians.

[Focus Group Narrator]

Representative Lauren Boebert launched an Islamophobic attack against fellow Congresswoman Ilhan Omar on the House floor today, suggesting that the congresswoman from Minnesota is involved in terrorism, calling her a member of the Jihad squad and repeating an unsupported smear that Omar

[Kyle Clark]

had married her brother.

[Sarah Longwell]

The jihad squad member from Minnesota has paid her husband, and not her brother husband, the other one, over a million dollars in campaign funds. This member is allowed on the Foreign Affairs Committee. While praising terrorists.

[Focus Group Narrator]

It's time that we acknowledge something that

[Kyle Clark]

may be obvious by now.

[Focus Group Narrator]

We hold Republican Congresswoman Lauren Boeber to a different standard than every other elected official in Colorado. We hold Congresswoman Boebert to a far lower standard. If we held her to the same standard as every other elected Republican and Democrat in Colorado, we would be here near nightly chronicling the cruel, false and bigoted things that Boebert says for attention and fundraising. This is not about politics, assuming politics is still about things like taxes, national security, health care, jobs and public lands. This is about us as journalists recognizing that we'll hold a politician accountable if they say something vile once, but we won't do it if they do it every day. Our double standard is unfair to all the elected officials in Colorado, Republicans and Democrats, who display human decency.

[Sarah Longwell]

So you just did your first extended interview with Boebert since 2019. She was first campaigning for Congress. Has her relationship with these outlets like yours evolved over the years? She happier to talk to you now? Is she growing in office? What do you make of Lauren Boebert these days?

[Kyle Clark]

I think Congresswoman Boebert certainly has learned and grown and changed in her time in office. I think when she first went to Congress, she knew nothing about the institution. And she almost celebrated the fact that she didn't know how Congress worked, and it helped to reinforce her outsider image. My last interview with her was the day after she announced in 2019. And she sat on my show and talked about how she was upset that the Republican incumbent, Scott Tipton, was playing second fiddle on a committee to Maxine Waters, and that how she would never do that. And I had to explain to her, well, it was because he was in the minority. So he doesn't run the committee. The majority runs the committee. Oh, okay. Oh, well. But now, now that she's been there, she's learned about the institution. She's learned about how some of the levers have worked. And I will also say I've given her credit in the last year for taking a couple of, I think, really impressive stands that have united colorad across political affiliations. When she stood up to pressure from President Trump and others to force the release of the Epstein files, I mean, what, they took her into the Situation Room and berated her about it, and she still held strong on that. She's mixed it up with the president over the Arkansas Valley Conduit. That's a clean drinking water project in rural Colorado that people have been waiting for for 50 years. The President blocked that because Tina Peters was still imprisoned in Colorado. Boebert got right in his business about that. So, yeah, I think. I think she's. I think she's learned, she's grown, she's changed. And she was willing to sit down with me for an extended interview for the first in seven years. And I thought the most telling thing in that exchange was when I asked her, why are you and other Republicans willing to take such abuse from Donald Trump? And she said, well, it's not abuse. It's just how Washington works.

[Sarah Longwell]

Interesting. You know, a little bit how Washington works. Do you think it's just how Washington works? I mean, it's how it works now for Republicans.

[Kyle Clark]

There you go. It's how it. It's how it works.

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[Kyle Clark]

One of the things that President Trump demands of other Republicans is that they're willing to take his abuse. They're willing to take his humiliations, that they must be willing to change their positions as he changes his. That's the standard FR entry now to the Trump show. And she. She understands that. But I will say she. She is more willing than any other Republican of the four in Colorado's delegation to draw hard lines against Trump and say, I will not debase myself by doing that. You may not have that, which I think is. I think is noteworthy, especially given kind of her reputation when she entered Congress.

[Focus Group Participant]

Yeah.

[Sarah Longwell]

I mean, and look, she's not the only one. Like, I actually find it sort of interesting that three of the most. I don't know. I don't even know. Maybe this is even sexist, because there's a lot of the men in the caucus who are absolutely, completely out of their minds. But I sort of had Boebert and Marjorie Taylor Greene and Nancy Mace in a particular category of congresswoman. Like, they. They are people who have. Nancy Mace is almost in a category her own. She's been a never Trumper. She's been an Always Trumper. But lately all of them have been people who have stood up to Trump. And I think it's kind of wild because they, they kind of made their careers being as Trumpy as Trump, loving Trump the hardest. How. What do you make of the fact that they're the ones, almost the only ones, with the, with the exception of Massie, who have stood up to Trump in Congress?

[Kyle Clark]

Couple of thoughts. I don't know that Lauren Boebert would love being siloed with the two of them.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh, well, I'm sorry, but she's, she's earned her spot, in my opinion, in the pantheon of weirdos that Trump has brought into this party.

[Kyle Clark]

I understand why, why you would group them. I also think that they are somewhat distinctive in, in their various approaches, but I do think that gender has something to do with it. I do think that there is something about certain women who say, I will not allow a man to treat me this way or treat other people this way. I don't know Nancy Mace and MTG as well as I do Lauren Boebert, but I do think that that's a strong vein of Lauren Boebert's ethos, which is, I don't like to see less powerful people abused by powerful men. Right. And I think that that had to do with her push to release the Epstein files. Of course, I also pushed her on that in our most recent sit down interview. I was like, you know, it's like you have this strong stand about how you will not allow powerful men to, to abuse less powerful women, but your buddies with Matt Gaetz. And she said, well, I think that the charges against Matt Gaetz weren't really anything. That's why they didn't go anywhere criminally.

[Focus Group Participant]

So.

[Kyle Clark]

Well, they went somewhere in the Ethics Committee. And she said, well, the Ethics Committee committee is a joke. And Kevin McCarthy this and that, whatever. And I said, and also most of the time you show fealty to President Trump and we know his history with women. She kind of brushed that off. But not to say that, like, there is a line there, I think in Lauren Boebert's mind of I will use whatever power I have to stand up to powerful men. I think that's the stand that she's taking, even if she won't particularly articulate it in those words.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, you know, I listen to voters all the time, so I know that people are full of contradictions. And so I think we can agree that she's a, she's a, she's a complicated person.

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[Kyle Clark]

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[Sarah Longwell]

Speaking of complicated people, I want to play a clip from the recent Republican debate for Colorado governor. The front runner is a guy named Victor Marks who is telling some tall tales about his life as he campaigns. I want to play an exchange that you had with Marks during a recent debate that got a lot of attention.

[Focus Group Narrator]

You claim that you've been all around the world armed to the teeth, rescuing women and children from captivity. That you've stopped human smugglers at the Mexico border and made them pay a price. That you as a civilian called in a U.S. military airstrike that killed 70 ISIS fighters. That you were the first American into Gaza during the war with Israel. That you've done 150 high risk missions and every one has been a success. You told me last week that it's all true and that you don't need to prove it to anyone. But you're talking to voters now. How should voters decide whether you've lived one of the most extraordinary lives in human history or whether you're a liar and a fraud?

[Focus Group Participant]

Can we back up to her for one second, please?

[Focus Group Narrator]

Please answer the question, sir.

[Focus Group Participant]

I will, but this. I'll make a little informal complaint. The folks at home don't want to hear about her past and what she did. That's not going to make a lick of difference to those who are having trouble putting food on the table. Kyle. Paying their electricity bill, Having to try to figure out how they send their kids to school.

[Focus Group Narrator]

Sir, how much of your time do

[Kyle Clark]

I Plan to burn.

[Focus Group Narrator]

Before you answer the question of whether you tell the truth.

[Focus Group Participant]

Do I tell the truth?

[Focus Group Narrator]

How should voters discern whether you have had one of the most extraordinary lives in human history or whether you are a liar and a fraud?

[Focus Group Participant]

Well, simply go back. I have 20 years of videos and documentation and people. We just had our head of security in Iraq call in a video today. The proof is just in people and what we document. I can't help it if I've had an extraordinary life. I'm an ordinary fellow. And starting from my childhood all the way to now, me standing up on a stage running for governor Reagan, I said I was going to talk about you. Come seats this little dog. She's going to go bite you right now. Kyle, she was in Syria and Iraq. So is she lying too?

[Focus Group Narrator]

Well, the dog's not running for governor. You're running for governor and you spent time answering the question other than to say that folks have to take the word of you and your staff.

[Focus Group Participant]

No, no, I said.

[Focus Group Narrator]

Mr. Bottom question for you as, as we approach closings here.

[Sarah Longwell]

Nice. First of all, great suit. You're wearing a great suit in that clip. But the press has had such a difficult time pinning down politicians who habitually lie, including the president. He's like nailing jello to a wall. And what do you think people can learn from your experience? And what do you wish the armchair critics knew about the bind journalists are in trying to get the truth out of these serially lying politicians?

[Kyle Clark]

I think the, the trouble for journalists is making voters care whether somebody who lies about their personal life will also lie in their professional conduct. And that's the through line that we're trying to draw.

[Focus Group Participant]

Right.

[Kyle Clark]

I'm not up there looking to litigate every one of Victor Marx's w mild claims about his life, but I do think that it matters in sum total whether he's a liar and a fraud. And I think that would be the thing that people would care about if, if he became governor. As it relates to Congresswoman Bobert, when I said years ago that Colorado media holds her to a different standard when she was rattling off a falsehood a day, you know, I mean, we, we'd rake Denver's mayor over the coals for a single falsehood. Why? Because he usually tells truth. Oh, but Lauren Boebert says wild things all the time. So we just kind of excuse it. We give people a bulk discount in journalism for dishonesty and indecency. That's just their brand. That's just who they are. It's like, well, well, no, hold on. Step back. Is that what people want out of their elected officials? And how do you expect somebody who behaves like that to actually govern and lead? So that's what I was trying to get at with, with Mr. Marks. I, I think it's, it's fascinating the way that when confronted with those kinds of prevarications, a lot of journalists will just retreat to, well, I'll just ask about policy. Instead, we'll just ignore that. I'll ask about roads or schools or whatever else. And it's like, well, I don't know. Are we interested in the fact that this man describes his life story as a cross between Billy Graham and Rambo? Like, does that matter? Or are we just going to kind of gloss over that and be like, so, tell me about how we fund schools?

[Sarah Longwell]

You know, I couldn't agree with this more. That isn't a remarkable moment that. Where he's like, look at my dog. Like, this study was, stop looking at me. Take the heat off. Look at my. Look at my dog here. My combat dog. This has been a huge challenge. Sometimes I'm shocked at Trump's second term with him on the national stage for a decade, how difficult it remains for journalists to just say, that's not true. And they, they do try sometimes with, like, the election lies. This happened with Kristen Welker recently, and even she was about to move on. She, like, he did his normal thing where it's like, I'm lying about the election and I'm always just like, everybody knows he's going to tell this lie. Why don't you just go in and confront him with the, with the facts about why it's false? And. But even she pushed back. He got up and walked out of the interview. But I do think journalists have decided to almost throw up their hands and say, I don't know, all these guys lie so much. And this is how you get the asymmetry between a Joe Biden and a Donald Trump in the coverage where, yeah, Joe Biden. Joe Biden was a bit of a fabulist sometimes. And so are he and Trump equivalent? No, the scale is entirely different because most of the time Joe Biden's telling the truth. Donald Trump is rarely telling the truth. And it does seem difficult for, for journalists to get their arms around that.

[Kyle Clark]

Well, and that's why I think some people just kind of seed the battlefield and just say, well, you know, we'll just, we'll give somebody all the tall tales that they want and we'll instead try to drill down on this, on this policy stuff over here. But at the end of the day, character matters. I think character still matters to a lot of voters. I mean, when I talk to Coloradans, they tell me that character matters because they'll tell me that they're bothered by character flaws in the politicians that they support and that they're bothered by character flaws in the politicians that they don't support. So when we talk about asymmetry, I think there's also one that exists between the willingness of journalists to press on character flaws, like honesty and like decency and the public's interest in still seeing those things in people. I think it's dangerous. Journalists say about voters they don't care about this anymore.

[Sarah Longwell]

Man. That's a big, complicated topic. I have a whole chapter in my book on character and voters new relationship with it, because I think in some ways it's definitely true that they still care. And I think there's other things that they've kind of moved on from, like they do not need their politicians to be perfect in the way that I think people once thought they did, but they still do want them to have both some civic virtue and moral boundaries, but they don't have to be perfect. Anyway, that'll have to be a different conversation because I want to switch gears to get to the Democratic primary for governor. You got Senator Michael Bennett as the front runner, and he started out leading by 30 points in some polls, like he was the runaway favorite. But there are a lot of polls now showing that Colorado Attorney General Phil Weiser is still sort of very much in striking distance. So we convened two groups of Colorado Democrats for this show, and let's listen to how they talked about Bennett.

[Focus Group Participant]

I feel like Bennett is another example of a politician who has just not done anything significant while he's been in office, at least as of late. You know, I thought Bennett was a good senator when he first was appointed and through his first term, and I really appreciated his support of the expanded child tax credit. But, you know, I mean, since. Especially since the second Trump administration, he has not. I don't think he's done anything. I mean, he voted to confirm all or almost all of Trump's nominees, whereas Weiser has, you know, brought I don't know how many lawsuits against the Trump administration. It just feels like someone who is actually interested in fighting back as opposed to Bennett, who just feels like he wants to sit there and, you know, get what he thinks is coming to him.

I think Bennett has more of a experience as an executive, which is something that I think you need as a governor. Although frankly, I would rather have Bennett in the Senate than I would in the governor's chair, at least right now. I think he's got some experience there and some tenure and some influence, and I would rather see him there. That being said, I think we're fortunate we've got two competent Democrats vying for that, for that governor's role.

Bennett is also a person that's aligned well with, like, industries that, you know, affect my household, such as forestry and Wildfire, and he's very supportive of that monetarily. And so it's interesting for me, but to what Mark's point said, like, I kind of like the idea of Bennett staying in the Senate. I feel fortunate that I'm like, you know, I don't think I would be sad, regardless of the person who goes into office, whether it be wiser or Bennett, if I voted for Weiser and Bennett went into governor position or vice versa, I actually don't think I'd be sad about that, which is a nice place to feel.

Denver has a generic white mayor named Mike Johnston. Mike, I can't tell sometimes the difference between Bennett and Johnston apart. And my grim view of Congress is he's part of the system and he's tainted by the system, the paid or get paid to play the corporate interests that are pervasive in the Senate and the House of Representatives. I see Michael Bennett as kind of a rear politician that is wanting to move into being the governor. So that's his best chance of maybe being on a presidential ballot several years. I know he tried. He ran in the primary before. But that's kind of what I'm thinking right now.

I think Bennett's a little too establishment for me. I didn't like the confirmations and I agree with a lot of what others are saying that, you know, it feels like career politician who might be a little too disconnected from, you know, ground level here in Colorado. And I, I don't, you know, dislike either of them. You know, I'm on the wiser side. I'm a little undecided, but just, I'm not happy with the things Bennett has done. And so I just, I can't really put a vote behind him.

[Sarah Longwell]

I think it's interesting that he's coming out of the Senate to be the governor. That's almost like a backwards drop. I don't know, because I would think Senate, there's more influence, more control. But then again, on the flip side, I have to say I Mean, being education, I like Bennett coming into looking at governor because I'd like to see what he could do with education for us. Can you explain why Bennett is running for governor? Like, why leave the Senate? And.

[Focus Group Narrator]

Because these.

[Sarah Longwell]

These guys don't want him to leave the Senate. They either want him to just not be around anymore, or they're like, stay where you are, bro.

[Kyle Clark]

I think he wants to leave the Senate because he hates it there. He said for years how much he doesn't like it.

[Focus Group Participant]

Right.

[Kyle Clark]

And I think not a lot gets done. I think that he's grown frustrated with it over the years. So I think he's been looking for something else, and this is his opportunity to. To get out. So when I listen to your focus group ahead of our conversation here, that so mirrors all the conversations that I have with Democrats in Colorado. I have not met a single Democrat that is really excited about one of these two candidates for governor and thinks that the other would be a terrible governor. Like, even the folks who are strongly in one camp are like, oh, yeah, the other one would do a fine job. Right. They're essentially cut from the same cloth. And this is what we tried to get at in one of our recent debates where I said, you know, Democratic primary voters will have supported both of you in the past, and now they must choose between the two of you. And again, you heard from these folks saying, you know, why not just keep Bennett in the Senate?

[Focus Group Participant]

Right.

[Kyle Clark]

And that's Phil Weiser's slog wiser for Governor Bennett for Senate.

[Geico Jingle Singer]

Right.

[Kyle Clark]

And he wants to. He wants to keep them in there. And I think you do have this aspect of your introducing an unknown party if Democrats vote for Michael Bennett for governor, because he is then going to pick his replacement, and he had long refused to offer any clues about it. He openly disqualified Democratic Governor Jared Polis when Polis granted clemency to Tina Peters. So he had one name on his no list. No names on his yes list. I pressed him on it in our recent debate, and he said, I'm gonna name somebody who is under the age of 50. Okay. All right. Well, then that would have ruled out Polis. That rules out Denver's Mayor Mike Johnson. That does not rule out Congressman Joe Nagoose or Congressman Jason Crow or Congresswoman Brittany Petterson, who are all thought to be contenders for this. The other thing that. That I'm thinking about, and I think a lot of Colorado Democrats know. Right. Is that Bennett was plucked from relative obscurity when he was appointed to the Senate. By then, Democratic Governor Bill Ritter, he was the superintendent of Denver Public Schools. Previous to that, he had worked for the conservative billionaire Phil Anschutz. So he was not a pick that anybody was really expecting. And Ritter has said that he got counsel that you have to pick somebody who's really intellectually rigorous, who's really wise and thoughtful and that kind of thing. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Bennett picks somebody who is not one of the three Democrats from the House in Colorado. And I think a lot of Democrats are uncomfortable with that unknown if they like both of these guys.

[Sarah Longwell]

That makes a ton of sense, I gotta say. You never know. Sometimes you hear something and you're like, man, that is a banger. That's gonna stick. And the Bennett for Senate, the way that, that sticks in your head as, and you know, voters saying, yeah, Bennett for Senate. Like that seems just like in there for people. It's a good, good tagline by Weiser.

[Focus Group Participant]

And.

[Sarah Longwell]

But before we get to Weiser, really quickly, we played that clip of the debate of you nailing down what's his

[Kyle Clark]

name, Victor Marks, in the race for governor.

[Sarah Longwell]

One of the things that happened in one of our focus groups is two women we had to say, like, hey, you can't argue with each other. But they got into a bit of a debate about whether or not Colorado is a blue state. Is it fair to say? I was just, when you, I was watching that Republican debate, I was like, man, those are some bad choices the Republicans have put up. Like those, those people are, are totally unqualified. So is, is it a blue state? Like, should we assume that whoever wins the Democratic primary here is going to go on to win the general election?

[Kyle Clark]

Yes, I, I would offer the caveat, though, that I think Colorado could be a purple state or a purplish state with a competent Republican Party. There are three candidates up for governor this year in the Republican primary. Victor Marks, the Rambo Reverend character. Then you've got Scott Bottoms, who's an ultra MAGA pastor who is told a lot of tall tales himself. And then you have State Senator Barb Kirkmeyer, who arguably is the most qualified Republican candidate for Colorado. And in 20 years since Republican Governor Bill Owens, the only Republican elected governor here in the last 50 years, longtime state senator, sits on the budget committee. She knows government inside and out. The question is, do Republican primary voters in Colorado have an appetite for a qualified candidate like that who is not a MAGA bomb thrower? The reason why I hesitate to say that Colorado is a blue state is because we have a ton of ballot measures and initiatives often put forward by conservative interest groups and so forth to to limit taxes or to direct some aspects of government policy. And Coloradans tend to vote a lot more conservatively on those than they do for the general election candidates. So that's what Republicans and conservatives cling to when they say Colorado is not a blue state because Colorado continues to vote down tax increases and to constrain government and that kind of thing. That, paired with a competent and competitive Republican Party, I think could make this like a lean blue state or like a solidly blue state with some Republicans here and there. But as long as the Republican primary electorate is not interested in those types of things or any kind of move to the center, then yeah, it's a blue state.

[Sarah Longwell]

That was a good explanation.

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[Kyle Clark]

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[Focus Group Participant]

de Julio and Los Ahoras. Char Broil performance series.

[Sarah Longwell]

All right, let's listen to how these groups talk about Phil Weiser, the guy running against Bennett. I'm voting for Weisner.

[Focus Group Participant]

He's brought a lot of cases against Trump. I like that he's fighting. I think we need a change and that's why I'm voting for him, because I'm hoping the change will be good for us. I just don't believe that Bennett's got the fight in him.

I would prefer someone from the state level going into a state executive position right now. And I think he has the ability to come in and be effective. I just want fresh faces. I would be fine with Bennett staying in the Senate as well and just having someone fresh as governor who I think has done a good job as ag.

I definitely lean towards Weiser for governor because he's an attorney general and he's already sued the Trump administration several times. And I really feel like whoever steps up to governor because we're under attack on constantly because we're a blue state and a red administration, we need somebody strong that's not, you know, that can fight and can fight legally, like knows like what they can get away with and they can't get away with legally. You know what I mean? Just, I would rather have someone aggressive with that kind of experience in the government role. And like I said, everybody else said Michael Bennett stay in the Senate since he already knows how that works.

[Kyle Clark]

I would agree with everything that Sally just said. You know, I think it's the best of both worlds if we can retain Bennett in the Senate and then have Weiser as our governor.

[Focus Group Participant]

I'm leaning a little bit in the direction of Weiser, but it's a toss up. I like to consider myself a man of the people. Right. And so hearing some of Weiser's stances on like being positive towards collective bargaining or even how his campaign funding has looked versus Bennett being backed by these billionaire super PACs. Right.

[Sarah Longwell]

It'd be nice to have Weiser stay and be somebody that could maybe stand up to Trump a little bit more. Hopefully that would be something positive to be thinking about for the future so that we cannot be so fatalistic. Went to school initially in college by Minneapolis, and just to hear what they went through was just so saddening and scary. And I would be terrified to have that happen in, in our area as well. You know, speaking of chapters in my book, another one that I I have is called Wartime Generals and the desperation from Democratic voters to sort of get rid of the old guard that they feel like plays by old rules and get who are like ready to fight. Because as best I could tell, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but just listening to the two groups, the big divide in people's appetite for Bennett versus Weiser seem to be that they all like Bennett fine, but like, he's been there a long time. And what they really want is someone who's going to come in and fight Trump. Like, that's what I heard from people. They wanted someone who's going to stand up to Trump, fight Trump. And even though Bennett has been a voice for Trump against Trump, he is from the old category of person. Like you can hear them say things like, yeah, I like that he'll know the law and know how to, you know, litigate against Trump. Is, is that the defining line or are there other important things that separate them?

[Kyle Clark]

That's the defining line as I hear it described by Democrats. And that's the defining line that Phil Weiser's campaign has certainly tried to draw. You got to think back to before this campaign. So for years on Air. I've referred to Michael Bennett as the cicada of confrontation. He's dormant, you don't see or hear for years. And then he explodes in some furious confrontation with somebody, like confronting Ted Cruz from the well of the Senate, you know, or going off on.

[Sarah Longwell]

That's what I was thinking of in my head.

[Kyle Clark]

Then he'll go quiet again, you know, and, and I think what Phil Weiser is saying is, look, I'm out there in these streets going after Donald Trump every day, which is a very popular thing to say to Democrats. And, and Bennett is the cicada of confrontation. Very mild mannered, except for when he's not. And you hear him say, like you, I can fight Trump too. You also see him trying to fight on different ground where he's saying, listen, we're all sufficiently anti Trump. Affordability is the problem. Affordability is what we're going to tackle as Colorado governor. So what Bennett's trying to do is he's trying to turn it into like a, like a yes and kind of thing, like, yes, we're all going to oppose Trump and I'm going to do this better than Phil Weiser. The only question I ever hear from Democratic voters and one thing I tried to capture in a debate question to Phil Weiser the other night was, you know, when all you have is a hammer, right, Everything looks like a nail. And he has the hammer of litigation and he brings it down on the nail of Donald Trump over and over and over again and it gets him headlines and it gets him praise for Democrats as governor. He's not going to wield that hammer anymore. Somebody else is going to be the ag. So are Coloradans confident in his ability to lead without the legal hammer? I will say I hear far less concern from Democrats that Weiser's not going to be able to figure out which levers he has at his disposal as governor. Then does Bennett have the stomach for the fight, which really seems to be the litmus test for a lot of

[Sarah Longwell]

Democratic primary voters and not just in Colorado. I mean, this is, this, this is, this is. And I gotta say, just as a quick aside, I need to write this piece. People are sort of getting caught up in the, the DSA of it all. Like, there's a lot of kind of very progressive candidates who are winning. And so there's a lot of analysis about like, is the party moving way more progressive, way more left, Are they embracing more DSA candidates? And I think it's their mistaking. It's like getting conflated with how desperate people are for fighters. And it's much less tethered to policy and ideology. It's not, it's not absented totally, but in some ways just the progressive mentality or even the DSA mentality of fighting systems, I think gives them a leg up in terms of the perception of fire in the belly for fighting Trump, which is really what people are looking for. They really want people who are going to go fight.

[Kyle Clark]

I think this Democratic gubernatorial primary in Colorado is case in point of that, right? You've got Phil Weiser and Michael Bennett who are two fighting centrists, right? Like, I think Phil Weiser might be incrementally more progressive than Michael Bennett, although Michael Bennett can point to a number of specific policies and say, like, look, that's actually quite, quite progressive. You know, like child tax credit has been, you know, like his main issue in the Senate for more than a decade now. So each of them have progressive positions, but then they have also both. They've kind of rejected the pull of the progressive left in Colorado and a couple of areas. Just real, real quickly. Colorado has a Labor Peace act, essentially requires two votes to form a workplace union instead of the one vote in every other state. And for years, Governor Jared Polis has knocked down progressive attempts to dismantle Labor Peace Act. Neither of these guys will say that they'll do it either. They both said let's look for a compromise, right? So they're not willing to just open the store to the progressive left either. But it's become an argument to voters over who is willing to take the fight to Trump more.

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[Focus Group Participant]

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[Focus Group Participant]

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[Sarah Longwell]

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[Kyle Clark]

Did this parking lot have a waterfall?

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[Sarah Longwell]

All right, I want to talk about the Senate race. And this is another dynamic that I think is replete throughout other primaries I'm seeing, which is you got an old guy, 74 year old John Hickenlooper, and he's got a primary challenger named Julie Gonzalez. She's a state senator there. And the polling's been pretty thin. But in this one too, they've mostly shown Hickenlooper leading. But there was a lot of interest in the groups, at least in theory, in replacing Hickenlooper. Even if not everyone knew a ton about Julie Gonzalez. Let's listen to how that sounded.

[Focus Group Participant]

I'm 75. I would not want to be starting another term in the Senate right now. I'm not going to vote for Hickenlooper. I think Hickenlooper's had his time and I don't see him as having been as effective in the Senate as Bennett. In fact, when you asked me to think of things he's really championed in the Senate, I'm hard pressed to. To do that.

I do like that Julie Gonzalez was a community organizer and has substantial history working in immigration law. I would like to have somebody who's young enough that they can still do Some excellent work. Hickenlooper, 74 I don't think I'm just not feeling that, but this is the opinion of a 31 year old here at the table.

I voted for him in the past. This may sound silly and maybe I'm wrong, but a lot of his ads,

[Kyle Clark]

you see, he never attacks anybody else.

[Focus Group Participant]

I hate ads where people attack each other.

I'm leaning towards Gonzalez also, more on a personal level. I'm just tired of white dudes. I feel like my life is ruled by white men. The older the better in Congress. So why or as a representative or anything in politics these days. It just seems as if I align more with the women's ideal of how politics should go. Men have ruined a lot of things for women, so I'm going to vote as many women as I can.

I lean towards like demsocialist side of things anyway. But, you know, there's not a lot of really strong opinions about like pro Palestine, anti ice. I appreciate that. You know, she's pretty clear about stuff and I, yeah, I'm thrilled with her.

He's older and it's just one of those because he doesn't have a strong stance or anything. Just I feel like is so easily bought, easily swayed and just doesn't really make a difference. So it just feels like we put him back in, you know. Yeah. At 74, it's just like, yeah, whatever. Like, I feel like we are kind of like we need to take stances on stuff and just tired of having people are kind of like lame duck, you know, in our representatives and Senate and just need someone who's younger, fresh, actually like hungry, ready to actually do these changes we need.

So I think Hickenlooper should not be running for reelection. I think he is too old, and I think it's time to let some younger people have a chance. I don't know anything about Gonzalez, so at least I know what I'm going to get with Hickenlooper. I might be better characterized as someone who hasn't made a decision yet, but, you know, if. If I had to vote right now, it would be Hickenlooper.

I think John's a fighter, and I've. I've known him for 20 years. Every time I have spent time with him, I have the sense that he understands what real Coloradans are going through, and he's still well connected to them. So I've been a loyal hick fan.

He's an old friend of my dad's, so I've known him since I was a kid. Very nice man and very engaging person. But I do know his age, and I am a very, very progressive, you know, Bernie Sanders acolyte. And I. I just think Julie Gonzalez is a voice, you know, in our state Senate. And, you know, I. I want to give her a chance.

I feel like I am contradicting myself because I was like, burn it all down. Get new people. But I really do like hick. He's from southeastern Pennsylvania, like me originally. I feel like he's the stalwart for public lands, and he, you know, he was. He's very wealthy now, but he's a small business owner. So I feel like he gets it. He gets the struggles of, like, the intricacies of trying to do things on your own.

[Sarah Longwell]

Okay, maybe it's just because it's top of mind, because I just did main groups. But the way that people talk about Hickenlooper sounds very similar to the way people talk about Susan Collins, which is a bunch of people think who voted for her or like, it's time for her to go. She's been here too long. And a lot of these were split ticket voters. In fact, they were all split ticket voters, so they voted for Biden, but they. They always voted for Susan Collins. And a lot of it was this connection, like, she'd been around a long time. And it was the same, like, she did this thing for my, like, you know, very local, connected. And then the other part of the group is like, too old. Gotta go. The being there for such a long time was like a deficiency and the age was a deficiency, and like, it was like, no new blood whatever. And so it just reminds me so much of how people are talking about Hickenlooper. But here's the thing I, I think is interesting, somebody's saying in there, I'm a big Bernie fan. Bernie won the primary in 2020 in Colorado, like, handily, which means it's probably further progressive. The Democrats are further progressive than kind of the mainstream of the Democratic Party in other states. Why do you think that is?

[Kyle Clark]

I think that Colorado voters, and Colorado Democrats in particular, have had a type for the last 20 or 30 years, and it's that kind of awkward, skinny, nerdy white guy dad who, you know. This is your John Hickenlooper. Michael bennett, Denver Mayor Mike John, this is like the Come on, everybody. It's a beautiful Saturday in Colorado. Let's go hiking. And, you know, and they're wearing jeans and putting the family in the station wagon to go hiking in the foothills. Right. You know, and, like, that's who Colorado voters have gone for for the longest period of time. And I think the thought was like, oh, they're kind of quirky, unconventional politicians. Governor Jared Polis is kind of a sidecar to that. He's a different kind of nerdy and quirky, but still somewhat similar. Right. But, but these kinds of guys have dominated Colorado politics for 20, 30 years now, and I think that there is kind of an appetite among Democratic primary voters of, let's do something new, something different. But when I listen to your focus group on this, it was like, Julie Hu.

[Focus Group Narrator]

Yeah.

[Kyle Clark]

I mean, okay, she's done some labor organizing. Okay.

[Focus Group Participant]

All right.

[Kyle Clark]

I mean, the fact is, I interviewed Julie Gonzalez when she announced her campaign. She's very well known in progressive circles. She was a DSA member, is no longer a DSA member, and struggled to explain to me why she isn't, and made it sound like it was like a membership snafu. But she's essentially a Democratic socialist. But she couldn't really articulate a case of what she would do differently than John Hickenlooper.

[Sarah Longwell]

It's.

[Kyle Clark]

Well, I don't like the way that he talks about this, and he needs to fight Trump more. Okay, but what would you specifically do? Well, I talk about these things differently. The fact is, is there is money and energy out there for lefty candidates in Dem primaries this year. It has not flowed to her.

[Focus Group Narrator]

It just.

[Kyle Clark]

It absolutely has not flowed to her. I think that there are going to be people who vote for her as almost kind of like a protest vote against Tick and Looper, kind of like a thank you for your service and you should move on. But the fact that she is the candidate and the fact that she got in relatively Late and underfunded is an acknowledgment of the fact that Colorado Democrats don't step out of line.

[Sarah Longwell]

Line.

[Kyle Clark]

They do not step out of line. You get somebody like a, like a Jason Crow who wanted to make a run at hick and say, you know, thank you for your service. You've been tremendous. For Colorado Democrats, it's time for a new generation. That would have been a hell of a race.

[Focus Group Participant]

Right.

[Kyle Clark]

That would have been a hell of a Jonah Goose, John Hickenlooper race. Would have been a hell of race. Those guys aren't going to step out of line and do that. There's, there's no chance, I think the other thing that Coloradans might know about Hickenlooper that perhaps folks around the country might not know as well. And I think this speaks to the Susan Collins thing you're talking about.

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[Kyle Clark]

He went from being a businessman, geologist turned brew pub owner, ran for mayor of Denver full of, like, lively youthful energy, like an outsider. I mean, he was just kind of electric. And then he carried that into the governor's mansion in Colorado in which he still had kind of like that younger outsider energy, but kind of added a layer of statesmanship and like a, you know, I, I know how things work now. I cover Colorado politics. And I would be hard pressed to say what he's done in the Senate. It he's there.

[Focus Group Participant]

Right.

[Kyle Clark]

And I think your focus group, and I talked about that, too, he's there. I asked him when he announced for reelection. You know, I've got a stack of strongly worded letters that you've written to the Trump administration on a handful of topics. What do you, what are you doing? He goes, can I tell you the truth? I hate those letters, but sometimes they're all you can do. And I think a number of Democratic primary voters are like, the hell with that. That, like strongly worded letters ain't, that ain't going to do it anymore. But at the same time, Julie Gonzalez is just, I don't see her getting traction outside of the fact that she's not John Hickenlooper.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, it seems like Susan Collins and Hickenlooper both in a position to be dethroned by somebody, either a Democrat in Susan Collins's case or by, you know, a strong Democrat primary in, in Hickenlooper's case. But, but I'm not sure they, that they've gotten the energy is there. But I just, I'm not sure they've gotten the candidates that, that work entirely for the moment now. A lot of our focus group participants were from Denver. And Representative Diana DeGette, who was first elected in 1996, is facing a couple of primary challenges. One of them, Malat Kiros, is endorsed by Bernie Sanders. And there was a recent poll by Data for Progress that showed Kiros leading to get by 5, 5 points. Let's listen to how some Denverites in these groups talked about.

[Focus Group Participant]

Deet has been in Congress since like the early 90s. She has some strong contenders in the primary and I think it's time she needs to go in the, you know, for the Democratic side. And then my city councilor is term limited and I live down the street from him and I can attest he's really done nothing for my community. So it's time for someone new.

She takes zero risks. She just has not done anything noteworthy for Colorado, for the country at large. I mean, I just cannot name a single accomplishment of hers over her 30 year career in Congress. And given how safe this district is, we need someone who is going to take more risk. The only one I know of is Milat Kiros. And I've looked at her a bit, but maybe, and maybe there's another one on the ballot, but that's, that's the one who is at least the most, most notable. So I've looked at her a little bit, but I haven't, I haven't voted yet. So I'm not sure what, how I will vote in that race.

I'm still kind of wavering on that one. If you ask me on Monday, I mean, I might say Diana DeGette and yes, man Friday, I'd say, no, I'm

[Kyle Clark]

not gonna vote for her.

[Focus Group Participant]

I have not made up my mind on that one yet.

[Sarah Longwell]

So Diana DeGette has not gone onto your show for an interview, which is a local poll. It's a real problem. What is the knock on her from her primary challengers?

[Kyle Clark]

It's exactly what you heard in the focus group, that she sat in a safe Democratic seat for 30 years and hasn't done anything with, with it.

[Sarah Longwell]

And so is there a chance she gets knocked off? Like, is the anti incumbent sentiment enough?

[Kyle Clark]

She's acting like there's a chance that she gets knocked off. I mean I, there was that one poll that showed, that showed Kyros up. I think, I think the sample size was 300 people. Yeah, but what I always tell folks, like we're in such a lightly polled environment now in Colorado. As Colorado has gotten less competitive and as polling has gotten harder, we're just so thin on polls. So what I always just tell folks is if you want to know the state of the race, look at the behavior of the candidates you in the race. And Diana De is behaving like, and her allies are behaving like there's a very good chance that she loses. They are on the attack against Kiros. They're spending in a way that she's never had to spend before. So they clearly think that there's a chance that, that she loses. And I think it's, it's for the reason that the folks in that focus group described, which is she's an institution in Denver politics. But what has she brought home for Denver or for the progressive movement in that time? Right. This is not some centrist dam who's getting primaried. She's arguably the most progressive Democrat in Colorado's congressional delegation. But then the knock is that she has not converted those values into votes or into into wins. But then I think the real question is, will voters determine that Mallat Kiros is too inexperienced and too extreme. She was a corporate attorney for one year out of law school. She got canned by her big firm because she wrote an anti Israel essay. She came home to Denver to get into a PhD program. She's worked at a coffee shop. Now she's running for Congress. I think folks will look at that. And you know, she says, I mean, she's, it's total DSA playbook, right? I mean she's, she's hard left, she is very eloquent, she's very persuasive. But will voters be comfortable kicking out to get a known quantity? And I should also just say there's a third person in the race, CU Regent and cannabis entrepreneur Wanda James, who has a decent local profile in Democratic politics. Her campaign has failed to launch in an enormous way. I mean, just never get off the pad. She's involved in controversies around her cannabis business and around her work as a CU Regent where she's been censured by her colleagues. But the reason why I bring up her name is I could see some Democratic voters saying, you know what, I need to send a signal that Diana Deget should go. Not willing to vote for Kiros, Wanda James is there, in which case you

[Sarah Longwell]

just sort of split, you know, the anti incumbent vote and she, she rides again. All right, we've all been there.

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[Focus Group Participant]

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[Sarah Longwell]

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[Kyle Clark]

Did this parking lot have a waterfall?

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[Sarah Longwell]

I want to close by talking about Governor Jared Polis, who's leaving office at the end of the year. Polis used to be a bulwark heartthrob, but that was before he started playing footsie with RFK Jr. And before he commuted Tina Peters sentence for interfering with election equipment, attempting to prove that the 2020 election was stolen. We asked the focus groups if they'd be interested in voting for Polis in a primary for a third term if they could. And there were not really any takers. Let's listen.

[Focus Group Participant]

A lot of the things that, that he has done I think has been helpful with our infrastructure and help. Helpful in terms of social issues. The Tina Peters commutation was just a really bad choice in my view. And, and I, I get why he might. Why he did it, but, and I respect that. But I, but that, that did it for me. If he ran again, I was like, nah, I don't think so.

He's also a champion of RFK junior When he got nominated, which I like

why he stated that he wanted to be, that it would help us in the long run with the funds that are being withheld for Medicaid and for restitution. Yet we all know that the administration isn't going to do anything to benefit a blue state. And so he basically kissed the ring on an issue where, again, we're fighting for the rule of law and the Constitution. And she was convicted by a group of, of her peers and the judge sentenced her and it is what it is. And yet he just, just said, okay, whatever, I'm done.

[Kyle Clark]

You made a handshake deal with Trump. You're gonna get your hand ripped off. You know, if people are threatening your family, say that, you know, be honest.

[Focus Group Participant]

Something's.

[Kyle Clark]

Something's going on that does not add up. This made no sense. What's gonna take care of it. And people are fuming as it's represented right here. So I just don't get it.

[Focus Group Participant]

It.

[Kyle Clark]

I don't know why he would do this to himself.

[Focus Group Participant]

That and his bridge to nowhere that he tried to have us pay for in Civic center park earlier this year was ridiculous. Unfortunately, he was stopped from doing that.

I've had the opportunity to interact with him over the course of like years and most recently like in November, he's excuse my language, just turned into an asshole. Like I don't know if anyone else has been in the room with him, but like you'll have a meeting with him. He doesn't even like look up from his phone. And I like get to this point where I'm like, I'm a person, focus your attention on me. And I just like that's like a granted unfair. Like I don't necessarily know how others behave in meetings like that. But I'm like, you're rude and I don't know why you're being rude to me. Like this was a, you know, like big deal for me to like have a meeting with the governor and I'm like, you can't even look up from your phone. I'm good.

Police directed agencies to cooperate with ISIS subpoenas and that. That is infuriating to me. Like early on I was thrilled with Polis with the, you know, the universal pre K and some of the things he did early on socially. But yeah, I agree that something seems to have shifted with him in the last few years and I can't put my finger on what it is, is or you know, the reason for it either. But he just has made it. I'm no longer a fan of Polis.

I feel like this Polis is not the version of him I saw in the House when he was a house member. I feel like he would never gone for this and I feel like I, I might be wrong on this, but I feel like I read he vetoed an anti corruption measure that got passed by the legislature and I did not like that at all.

He seems easily biased and I'm not a fan of that. He just happens to always find a way where there's a really controversial issue coming across and his party is trying to push to say hey, we want to do this in favor of the people. And now here comes a veto from Jared Polis.

[Sarah Longwell]

So it sounds like listening to this has Polis torched his reputation there in Colorado. People were mad at him, him and I gotta say I also quite mad at him over the Tina Peters commutation and feel vindicated about being mad at him post watching how she's behaved subsequent to the commutation. But what is going on with him? People, people did and you heard it there. They sound like perplexed, like what has changed about him? Why is he acting like this? Do you have a theory on that?

[Kyle Clark]

Doesn't it sound like almost like a Couple that needs to go to therapy, right? Like Democrats in Colorado and Polis, where it was like, we used to have something, like, there used to be a connection, and now it's gone. And it's.

[Focus Group Narrator]

It's.

[Kyle Clark]

It's different, and you've changed. When I talk to Colorado Democrats, they want him to pack up his stuff and move out of the House. They just want him to be gone. They just want to be done with him. I also hear all these conspiracy theories about how, like, he's getting something from Trump and there's got to be something in it for him. There's nothing to that. I strongly believe that Jared Polis did not give clemency to Tina Peters in order to appease Donald Trump. He did it because Jared Polis thinks it's the right thing to do. And Jared Polis is the smartest person he's ever met. And I think it's a side benefit, perhaps, that it might take some of the pressure off of Colorado from the federal government. He did it because he thinks that it's the righteous thing to do. And when he thinks that something's the righteous thing to do, he cannot be dissuaded by anybody else. I also think that when people say Jared Polis has changed, I don't think Jared Polis has changed. I think that Democrats in Colorado have moved to the progressive left, and I think that he is, you know, a libertarian, ish Democrat who has a lot of views that are not necessarily, you know, party doctrine and are a bit all over the place. He is who he has always been, but I think the electorate has kind of shifted around him, and he had. Has no interest in changing with the electorate. At least, you know, that's my feeling on things. I also think, at the end of the day, it's not to take away from his political talents or his achievements or whatever else, but we have to understand this is a very wealthy guy who leveraged his wealth to get a series of seats on the State Board of Education and then in Congress and then in a hotly contested Democratic primary for governor. And he got in there. He never really did it. It doesn't feel to me as an observer, by building coalitions and getting people who strongly believe in him right. Pretty much everybody that we've talked about in this convers has a cadre of Colorado Democrats that believe strongly in them. That's a really small group for Jared Polis, and it's never been smaller than it is now. And I think we might have just kind of reached the natural limits of what Jared Polis can buy with his personal wealth and not on the list is the respect of Colorado Democrats at the end of his term.

[Sarah Longwell]

This was great. Kyle. Thank you so much for joining us. I learned a lot about Colorado. It is, you're right, because of the fact that it is less of a swing state. I hadn't been paying super close attention attention until my producer suggested we take a look, that the primaries were super interesting, that there's a bunch of the themes that we've been exploring on this show that appear other places were really being revealed and you have broken it down beautifully. So thanks to you for coming on the show and thanks to all of you for listening to another episode of the focus group podcast. We're going to keep nerding out on this show all summer as we move through the primary season and we're going to turn up the nerdery to 11 in the fall. So if you're into that that, go subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, subscribe to The Bulwark on YouTube, become a Bulwark plus member on the Bulwark.com we'll see you guys next week.

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[Focus Group Participant]

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[Kyle Clark]

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