S6 Ep49: Tommy Vietor: Democrats’ Way Forward on Israel

Summary

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The Focus Group Podcast — S6 Ep49

Democrats’ Way Forward on Israel
Host: Sarah Longwell (The Bulwark)
Guest: Tommy Vietor (Pod Save America, Pod Save the World)
Date: July 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode tackles how America's relationship with Israel has become a wedge issue in the Democratic Party, particularly since the outbreak of the Israel-Hamas war in 2023. Host Sarah Longwell and guest Tommy Vietor analyze shifting Democratic attitudes, focusing on insights drawn from recent focus groups of Democratic voters. They probe why the Israel issue has become so central, the role of AIPAC and money in primaries, generational divides, the intersection of anti-Zionism and antisemitism, and what this brewing divide means for the party’s future leadership.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Israel Has Become a Central Democratic Wedge Issue

• Polling Shifts:
  • Democrats’ unfavorable view of Israel climbed from 55% in 2022 to 69% in 2025 (00:40).
  • Similar upward trend among Republicans, especially young people.
  • “People are a bit more nuanced...your mental caricature of the median Democrat shouldn't be a college-aged protester. People are a bit more nuanced than that.” — Sarah Longwell (00:57)
• Not Just Policy—Voters Want Fighters:
  • DSA-aligned candidates’ rise attributed to voters perceiving them as “fighters,” rather than pure ideology (02:20).
  • “It’s more like I like this person, their character, are they a fighter?” — Tommy Vietor (03:36)

2. How Foreign Policy Moved to Center Stage

• From Afterthought to Litmus Test:
  • Progressive focus has shifted from domestic policy (Medicare for All, taxing the rich) to foreign affairs, especially Israel-Gaza.
  • “Progressives are as focused on foreign policy, especially Israel-Gaza...as on Medicare for All.” — Tommy Vietor (04:05)
• Why Not Other Conflicts?
  • The US is seen as directly responsible due to military aid to Israel, unlike in Ukraine.
  • “You wake up every day and see images...The issue wasn’t that the U.S. wasn’t doing enough. It was that the US was supplying bombs to kill people." — Tommy Vietor (06:10)

3. Anti-Israel Sentiment: Hearing from the Focus Groups

[07:44-09:07] Examples from voters:

• Calls to end U.S.-Israel relationship and halt aid.
• Equating Israeli actions in Gaza to atrocities of the past; references to Holocaust history.
• Unexpected mentions of right-wing commentators like Tucker Carlson, with voters crediting him for sharp Israel criticism.

4. The Horseshoe Effect: Shared Rhetoric on Israel Across Ideological Divides

• Tucker Carlson’s Cross-Aisle Appeal:
  • Some self-identified progressives say they listen to Carlson for his criticism of Israel (09:33).
  • The fact that anti-Israel rhetoric can appear on the far right and far left triggers discomfort over antisemitic undertones.
  • “I think that people see him [Tucker]...as a talented broadcaster. But he can very much cross the line into anti-Semitic tropes.” — Tommy Vietor (10:36)

5. Gaza, Hamas, and Nuance (14:58)

• Recognizing Hamas as a terrorist organization while contextualizing its rise due to occupation and failed peaceful protests.
• “I think Hamas is a fucking evil terrorist organization...But people are talking about the fact that living under occupation leads to violent responses.” — Tommy Vietor (15:09)

6. AIPAC: The New Litmus Test

[16:34-18:13]

• Overwhelming association of AIPAC with “genocide,” “extremists,” “dark money.”
• Even Jewish participants criticize AIPAC and distinguish between “Jewish” and “Zionist” identity.
• “APAC has become synonymous with dark money spending that distorts our politics.” — Tommy Vietor (18:13)

7. Moderates, Complexity, and Jewish Voters’ Perspectives

[21:05-24:38]

• Moderate Democrats are often uncomfortable with the “anti-Israel” left but still critical of Israel’s current government.
• Distinction between criticism of Netanyahu/IDF and being anti-Israel or anti-Jewish.
• “Most Israelis do not defend Netanyahu...just like we [Americans] don’t like Trump.” — Focus Group Participant (22:10)
• “There's a crazy hostility to Josh Shapiro [PA Governor]...I think the way Democrats deal with this wedge is by having a Jewish candidate who is critical of Israel.” — Sarah Longwell (24:38)

8. Can Democrats Nominate a Jewish Critic of Israel?

• Both agree it’s outdated to think Democrats wouldn’t nominate a Jewish person.
• “Absolutely think a Jewish politician could be elected president. It's actually quite silly to suggest...they'd have to kowtow to Israel.” — Tommy Vietor (28:28)
• The real litmus: rejecting AIPAC money, sometimes also using the term “genocide.”

9. The Genocide Argument and Its Political Implications

• For some, not calling what’s happening in Gaza a "genocide" is disqualifying; others find the term problematic and weaponized (30:35).
• “Genocide” now serves as a boundary marker inside progressive politics; for some Jewish Democrats, its use is fraught due to Holocaust resonance.

10. Anti-Zionism, Antisemitism, and Party Identity

• The line between anti-Zionism and antisemitism is often blurred.
• Instances like vandalism or violence presented as anti-Zionist acts are condemned as antisemitic (33:47).
• “We have to loudly denounce when anti-Zionism veers into antisemitism.” — Tommy Vietor (33:47)
• Need for Democratic leaders to create space for U.S.-Israel reevaluation, ensure empathy for both Palestinians and Jews, and maintain party unity.

11. "America First" Rhetoric Creeping Into Democratic Focus

[36:38-40:58]

• Recurrent use of "America first" — voters question U.S. aid given domestic needs.
• Sentiment often less about ideology, more about prioritizing domestic affordability and frustration with endless wars abroad.

12. Netanyahu as "Israeli Trump" and Generational Shifts

• Netanyahu’s long tenure, antagonism toward Obama, and embrace of Trump have deeply soured young Democrats’ views (40:58).
• Generational experience: “If you're a Democrat, especially a young Democrat, you've only known Israel as being led by Netanyahu.” — Tommy Vietor (40:58)

13. Path Forward for Democrats

• Next Dem nominee will have to lead thoughtfully on this issue—neither weaponizing divisions nor shutting down critique.
• Empathy and pluralistic values must be foregrounded.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the shift in focus:
  “Progressives are as focused on foreign policy—especially Israel, Gaza—related issues as they are Medicare for all.”
  — Tommy Vietor (04:17)

• On U.S. involvement:
  “People were just waking up day after day seeing in their social media images of carnage... and unlike Ukraine, the issue was that the U.S. was supplying another country with the bombs to kill people.”
  — Tommy Vietor (06:10)

• On the power and problems of AIPAC:
  “APAC has become synonymous with dark money spending that distorts our politics and makes the US government do things not in our best interests.”
  — Tommy Vietor (18:13)

• On American identity and Israel:
  “I am American first... It’s so important. I think a bigger problem is how Israel is framed, not that Israel’s politicians aren’t doing poor things, just like Trump.”
  — Focus Group Participant (22:03)

• On empathy and dual suffering:
  “We just have to have empathy and understanding for where people are coming from...including Jews in the US who feel antisemitism is on the rise and no one seems to care.”
  — Tommy Vietor (44:08)

• Evaluating party direction:
  “The ability to show leadership on this issue is going to be critical—because you can appeal to people’s worst impulses, or find a way to lead everybody in a better direction rooted in respect for humanity.”
  — Sarah Longwell (44:25)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Democratic Shift on Israel (Polls, Context): 00:05-03:35
• Why Israel is the Litmus Test Now: 04:45-07:31
• Voters’ Strongest Anti-Israel Soundbites: 07:44-09:07
• The Cross-Ideological Appeal of Tucker Carlson: 09:07-11:40
• Distinguishing Israel’s Government from Its People: 14:58-17:11
• Focus on AIPAC’s Influence: 16:34-20:26
• Moderate vs. Progressive Voter Views: 21:05-24:38
• America First Rhetoric Among Dems: 27:03-29:22
• Can a Jewish Critic of Israel Lead Dems?: 24:38-32:46
• Genocide Discourse in Progressive Politics: 30:35-33:11
• Navigating Anti-Zionism and Antisemitism: 33:47-36:20
• Empathy for Both Sides & The Path Forward: 40:58-44:25

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Overall Tone & Takeaway

The discussion is frank, sometimes raw, with both Sarah and Tommy striving for nuance and empathy—acknowledging fraught divides, generational differences, and the challenges of separating criticism of government policy from broader ethnic or religious identity. The voices of real Democratic voters reveal just how much the Israel issue has churned the party. The episode closes with a call for better leadership and more open conversation, not just within the Democratic party but in American politics writ large.

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Transcript

[Tommy Vitor]

Maybe someday we can do a focus group on a topic where you don't feel like you're on a high wire for 45 minutes.

[Focus Group Participant 1]

Did.

[Sarah Longwell]

Did you feel that way? Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Focus group podcast. I'm Sarah Longwell, publisher of the Bulwark, and this week we're covering a key wedge issue that's emerged in the Democratic Party in the last couple of years. I'm talking about America's relationship with Israel. Israel has become a lightning rod in primaries across the country, including in the last few weeks. And I want to pull apart how and why it has happened that Israel is now such a big issue in the Democratic Party. And look, there's been an obvious shift among Democrats since Israel and Hamas have been at War since 2023. According to Pew Research, 55% of Democrats held an unfavorable view of Israel in 2022, and that number was up to 69 in 2025. There was a similar bump among Republicans during that time. It went from 27 unfavorable up to 37%, driven almost entirely by young people. I Democrats you're going to hear in today's focus groups would register in that poll as having an unfavorable view towards Israel. It's a almost universal opinion. But that does not mean that your mental caricature of the median Democrat should be a college aged protester. People are a bit more nuanced than that. My guest today is Tommy Vitor, co host of Pod Save America and POD Save the World, and Kenyan alumni just like me.

[Tommy Vitor]

Hey, man, great to see you.

[Sarah Longwell]

Great to see you. You know, I got a note the other day from a Kenyan math teacher saying that she loved the bull work. And I was like, kenyan math teacher? What was that? I didn't know they had you guys there.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, for listeners that one of the great things about Kenyon is you didn't have to take math, you didn't have to do a lot of hard sciences. You could just read books.

[Sarah Longwell]

Read books, man. Read books. As I tell people sometimes a true story, that in my high school they invented a class for me called the History of Math so that I could write papers. Ra take trig. My brother was two years younger. We were in the same algebra class. And that is why I went to Kenyon College. No math requirement.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I took calculus in high school. Luckily, one of my best friend's father was the teacher and helped me. Tutored me along the way, but yeah, no, not my strong suit anyway.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, look at us, both of us getting what is it? What is what? That was our privilege, Tommy. We both, we got through school despite our absence of. Now I just sit here and look at polling all the time and think I wish I'd paid a little bit

[Tommy Vitor]

more attention, a little more numeracy.

[Sarah Longwell]

So I want to test a thesis of mine on you because I like having you on for these conversations because you and I are not always aligned on these things. A handful of these DSA aligned candidates have been winning primaries this year like in New York, Denver, Philadelphia. And I just wrote something making the case that what's going on in the party is a lot less ideological than the left might like to think, that it has less to do with. With left wing policies. Exactly. And more to do with how angry voters are. But I will also stipulate that there are issues that come up quite a bit now and Israel is one of them. Affordability is the other one. And so that those kinds of things have sort of converged to make DSA candidates slightly more palatable at this moment. Because they're strong, ideological, whatever. Because voters the perception they are fighters, which is what they're looking for. But how ideological do you think this fight actually is? Like, do you think this factionalism is real or is it more online?

[Tommy Vitor]

That is a really good question. I do think as political professionals we probably over index on our assumption that policy is driving political decisions. When you're right, it's more like I like this person, their character, are they a fighter, et cetera. I think what we are seeing on the left and the far right at the moment is rage at the establishment, rage at the status quo, feeling like the current system is broken and not working for anyone. And that is playing out in elections in New York, Colorado, all over the place, right. When it comes to foreign policy. I think when Bernie Sanders ran in 2016, he was almost entirely focused on domestic policy issues. To the extent he talked about foreign policy was like trade, but he was like Medicare for all. Taxing the rich, free college, like that was the feature. The foreign policy stuff was an afterthought. I kind of feel like on the left in the sort of Bernie adjacent political world, that's just not the case anymore. I feel like progressives are as focused on foreign policy, especially Israel, Gaza related issues as they are Medicare for all. At least in terms of just like the things you hear people talking about.

[Sarah Longwell]

Why do you think that is? We'll talk about this as we go on, but I was watching that Michigan Senate debate and I think El Sayed said A PAC money about Haley Stevens, like in his first two sentences. And there is no doubt I hear coming up with voters all the time. And you know, Democrats love their litmus tests. And this is the new one. This is, this is it right now, as best I can tell from listening to voters. Why do you think this issue and not say Russia's invasion of Ukraine? There's obviously lots of humanitarian crises around the world, people committing horrific crimes against one another. Like why has this become an American political issue?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, it's a good question. I watched that debate too because I too am a nerd and care about the Michigan Senate primary. You're right, Abdul did raise AIPAC a lot. I think part of it was because AIPAC is spending, I think like 30 some odd million dollars to back his opponent Haley Stevens. So he's trying to kind of neutralize that spending by questioning the source of it and what, you know, that kind of money buys you.

[Focus Group Participant 2]

Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

So that's sort of a political tactic. Look, I think back to the early days of the Gaza war when Biden was president and I feel like you would see a lot of people suggesting that the kind of kids at the campus protests were just there for performative reasons and this was just people jumping on like the latest activism du jour. Now I did not really believe that then. I certainly don't think it's true now because of the polling you mentioned. You know, you're seeing a lot of Democrats care deeply about this issue and not insignificant percentage of Republicans think the U.S. is backing Israel too much. I think there's like 20% of Republicans said that in a recent Quinnipiac poll. I think the difference here is people were just waking up day after day after day and seeing in their social media feeds and in the news images of carnage. Like people getting eviscerated by 2,000 pound bombs, kids dying, people starving to death in Gaza. And unlike Ukraine, the issue wasn't that the US wasn't doing enough to support them. It was that the US was supplying another country with the bombs to kill the people. Right. And so it kind of married up two issues. Which one was supported for Israel, which is run by a extremist far right government that, you know, if you're under 40 years old, you've only known as BB Netanyahu kind of attacking Barack Obama, attacking the JCPOA, leading the US into wars. Right. Like that's sort of your opinion of the Israeli government. So the US is supplying the bombs that are killing these innocent people. And I think it marries up like anger at support for this right wing government with this general frustration you hear across the political spectrum with like, why are we involved in the Middle east anymore? Like, we just want to get out of there, leave that to them.

[Sarah Longwell]

Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

Like I heard that in a ton of your groups that we're going to talk about.

[Sarah Longwell]

Well, let's get into the groups and we're going to do the Israel of it all. I want to start with a quick smattering of some of the more strident anti Israel sentiments that we heard from our focus groups in recent months. Let's listen.

[Tommy Vitor]

Would anyone want to see that relationship disappear entirely?

[Focus Group Participant 1]

I want it to end.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's obvious where the money's going right now and it's obvious it's going to just more war, death. So stop fucking taking money, stop giving money until, I don't know, something happens to change. Excuse my pardon, my friends.

[Focus Group Participant 3]

One of my specializations when I was teaching was Holocaust history. And that you all know all about fucking sickens me. What has happened in Gaza. It disgusts me. And I've got Jewish family. It has nothing to do with being Jewish. It has to do with being a Zionist and forgetting what the hell happened 70 years ago and doing the same thing to the Palestinians that was done to Getting a little heated here. It turns my stomach in very limited doses. I actually like Tucker Carlson. I know, I know you can tell what I think about Zionism. He's a sensationalist son of a bitch. I've been wanting, like I said, I was conservative. I've been watching him for 30 some years. But look up what his interviews with Mike Huckabee and look at the corner he put Huckabee in. And in these tiny doses, Tucker Carlson is useful.

[Sarah Longwell]

I think I'm in the very firmly in the. You don't ever gotta hand it to Tucker Carlson Camp myself. But you and Ben Rhodes talked about Tucker's interview with Mike Huckabee a few months back.

[Tommy Vitor]

Fascinating.

[Sarah Longwell]

And seemed to think he did a pretty good job purely as a interviewer. Regardless. Regardless of his motives. What do you think about sort of the horseshoe ishness of the Israel issue now between the right and the left,

[Tommy Vitor]

the interview that the person in your focus group is talking about there. Basically what Tucker did was lay a trap for Mike Huckabee where he talked about Israel's right to exist as coming from the Bible. But then when you kind of dig deeper into what he was referencing, it sure sounds like Israel has a right to a lot more territory in the broader Middle East. And you have pinned him down on whether that was what Huckabee thought. And Huckabee Tuckerby didn't do very well. So it was a fascinating conversation. The Tucker pieces I hear from a lot of people in my life who are not conservatives or Republican in any way that they are listening to Tucker. Has that happened to you over the last couple of years?

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah, it also, I mean, I wrote a piece about this that also really upset conservatives, but I didn't know what to tell yet. Like, Candace Owens comes up all the time across the political spectrum. I mean, more heavily on the right, but across the political spectrum for sure. Like they've gone mainstream for sort of politically interested people.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. And so look, you know, I don't want to try to get into Tucker's head. I think that people see him. There's something interesting. Look, he's a very talented broadcaster. He can be a talented interviewer. It doesn't mean I agree with his political views, but it can be compelling audio. I also think people find fascinating the feeling that, you know, someone who is a Republican, someone who is a MAGA official, is willing to criticize Trump so harshly on an issue like this and was actually, I thought, pretty principled in his opposition to the Iran war. And I think that that opposition just, it spoke to a lot of people. Now, of course, Tucker can very much cross the line into talking about anti Semitic tropes and saying things that I feel are way overstated and I think rightly deemed offensive by a lot of people. But I do think, like, that is why he's had such an appeal. And he was talking about this issue at a time when there was a lot of attention on it and people were desperately hoping that someone with a line into the White House was talking to Donald Trump and saying, don't go to war with Iran, don't do this. And it turns out actually Tucker was one of those people. He just sort of failed in that effort.

[Sarah Longwell]

Right. Does it worry you, though, about with guys like Tucker? I mean, I always think that when I have a position and then I find that somebody terrible like might have that position for what I think are anti Semitic reasons that that, like, causes a problem for a legitimate. Right. Like, I actually, as somebody who has been shifting my own view not of Israel precisely, but of like, Israel's behavior right now. Right. Like, I sort of feel about Israel the way I feel about the United States at the moment, which is, hey, we're behaving like absolute lunatics. And so I am A like America. Fuck, yeah. Absolutist. Often like, give me an F1 Ford truck and a God Bless America soundtrack. And I, right now I'm like, well, I wouldn't be allies with us. We are crazy. We're behaving like monsters. And I feel that way about Israel right now. Like, I think Netanyahu is behaving like a lunatic. I think that somebody like Tucker, who I do think is anti Semitic, you see him going into those tropes constantly. And so in some ways, his ability to lay that trap for Huckabee or his ability to be more well versed in the making that case comes from the fact that he's dying to make a case against Israel.

[Tommy Vitor]

I don't think his opposition to the war with Iran is purely anti Semitic. He is someone who talks also about the war in Iraq, the disaster of being a part of a group at Fox News who sold that war, his regrets about that. Now you can, you can say that's bullshit. You know, you don't believe him. You don't think it's credible. But I don't think opposing the war with Iran is anti Semitic. I think it's actually like quite logical and rational.

[Sarah Longwell]

I also oppose the war with Iran.

[Focus Group Participant 3]

The.

[Tommy Vitor]

But here where he loses me is when he starts talking about Donald Trump. Like he is a passive actor in that decision making process and was just sort of like a captive of Netanyahu, the Israeli government, the Israeli lobby, right? He starts talking about how maybe the Israelis were threatening to kill Donald Trump and that's why he went to war with Iran. Like, that's where this shit gets crazy, right? And you completely lose me. And I think it very much veers into anti Semitism. My view on Israel is similar to yours in that I don't have views about countries, I have views about leaders. I love America. I don't like Donald Trump. And like, I, I have no problem with Israel the country. I have absolutely no problem with the people. I think it is run by right wing extremist lunatics. And I think what people are reacting to, especially young people, is there is a reflexive view in D.C. that the only acceptable kind of political approach to Israel is full support. It's providing billions of dollars every year. It's providing diplomatic support at the UN Even when it's in contravention of our own actual views as a country. And I think people are starting to question why. It's like, why do we have to give a rich country billions of dollars a year to buy weapons? Why do we have to go to war against Iran with the Israelis. Just because Netanyahu comes to Washington and pitches Trump on it in the Situation Room and makes a case that is, I think, sort of the good faith version of the opposition to this war that you're hearing more from, from younger people in particular.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'll just say for myself, I struggle, I struggle a lot, though, when people sort of glaze Hamas as though. And also, like, I just, I think there's more of a case like they wouldn't release the hostages.

[Tommy Vitor]

I don't think anyone's glazing, like, look, I think Hamas is a fucking evil terrorist organization. I think what happened on October 7 is unjustifiable by any means. I think when you were attacking and killing innocent civilian people, it is unacceptable and we have to condemn it, period. I think what people are talking about is the fact that when you have a group of people living under occupation, under military occupation, that that is almost certainly going to lead to violent responses. And I think what people also point to is the fact that Palestinians have tried all sorts of peaceful means of protests, of marches, et cetera, and those peaceful efforts at resistance were met by violence. So of course they're going to turn to violent organizations like Hamas. It doesn't mean Hamas is good. I would argue also that Hamas is wildly ineffective. I think Hamas has made life exponentially worse for the people of Gaza, to their great shame. That's like kind of the nuance that I think is coming out in these conversations that you just never would really hear before.

[Sarah Longwell]

So let's go back. Let's keep listening to the voters because there's a lot of stuff in here. One of the main buzzwords, as I, as I mentioned going around this year is the apac, which is the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. It's gotten thrown as a litmus test in many Democratic primaries, usually by more progressive challengers. Let's listen to some of the word associations we heard when we said, when you hear apac, you know, what do you think? And again, all Democratic voters, let's listen.

[Tommy Vitor]

Anyone have a word? Genocide. Extremists.

[Focus Group Participant 1]

I'm thinking extortion.

[Focus Group Participant 3]

There's a site on the Internet called APAC Tracker where you can find out how much money people have taken from APAC and other Israeli sources. And Haley Stevens has taken damn near the most money of anybody in the country, $5.5 million, whereas, like the nearest other Michigan person is like 143,000. So she is right out for me.

[Sarah Longwell]

Oh, I know that they're A big reason why we are funding Israel and committing genocides in Gaza.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's kind of just foreign influence, the U.S. and you know, I am Jewish. I don't agree with what's happening, you know, in Israel right now or with the funding that's happening there. I think that it was originally established and this is just my understanding. So it could be wrong as like, you know, kind of helping our ally of Israel and like, kind of who will kind of side with them.

[Sarah Longwell]

I want to definitely make the point that I'm not saying that, oh, if this candidate takes money from Jewish groups, I'm not voting. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying APEX specifically because we look at the history of the money and what they have been funding. I need them to speak to why you're taking that money. And I feel like for that particular group that information should be clarified, if for no other reason than they know this is a very big talking point for their constituents and they need to have something towards it. How much of a litmus test do you think AIPAC is and do you think it's a legitimate. A legitimate litmus test?

[Tommy Vitor]

I think it's a very serious litmus test in a Democratic primary right now. Look, I focus on these issues a lot and I have for a very long time. I'm not a fan of aipac. I think they've gone from, look, I mean, AIPAC was founded in the 60s. It was like a pure lobbying organization. They didn't have a pac, they didn't have any like direct political spending or endorsements. Basically, they just sponsored tons of trips from members of Congress to Israel to try to like build bonds and those relationships. And then like people who are part of AIPAC could donate individually. Like that was sort of their power. And then in 2021, AIPAC established a PAC and a super PAC and got more directly involved in politics. And now they're spending tons and tons of money. Like, I think they spent like, I think they had like 90, some odd million dollars in their super PAC at the beginning of this year. And I think what you're hearing there is concern about US policy towards Israel, but also that AIPAC has kind of become synonymous with dark money spending that distorts our politics and makes the US government do things that are not in our best interests. And so again, like, I, I'm with you in that I am uncomfortable with the level of emphasis you're hearing about aipac. Again, lots of criticism. I think they have gone from building ties between the US and Israel to just trying to push like whatever BB Netanyahu wants as policy and demand that lawmakers follow suit. But when you hear words like extortion, I think that's wildly overstated and I think it can play into anti Semitic tropes. Also, you know, you heard the individual there mentioned this sort of eight pack tracker Twitter account that comes up all the time. The methodology of that account was wildly flawed and it was just like totaling up like random people and organizations. So like that's where this gets like, it gets, it gets sloppy and I think uncomfortable and can veer into anti Semitism. But I do think it's the right thing for Democratic candidates to reject money from apex PACs or super PACs. And I think that's a totally legitimate thing to talk about. Because again, part of the problem is that the APAC super pacs, what they're doing is they're going into Democratic Party primaries and taking out progressive members of Congress by focusing on issues that have nothing to do with Israel. And I think that also rubs people the wrong way.

[Sarah Longwell]

So a couple of months ago, we did a series of focus groups with Democrats who wanted the party to move more into a more moderate direction. And then we did another set of groups where the voters wanted the party to go in a more progressive direction. And some of the sound you've already heard was from the more progressive groups, people who say, I want the party to be more progressive than it is. I want to talk about the sort of more moderate groups. Now a lot of the voters in this group fell into the camp where they weren't always comfortable with the anti Israel elements of the party. But then when you ask them, they were still pretty critical of Israel themselves. Let's listen.

[Focus Group Participant 2]

A lot of one issue voters when it comes to Israel, you know, my personal view is that, you know, that it's, it's, it's in the hands of that country, is in the hands of, of a genocidal maniac who easily manipulated Trump into attacking Iran without a plan.

[Sarah Longwell]

I cannot stand Netanyahu. I'm very pro Palestine being their own country. And I think a lot of Jews would agree with me. So I think, you know, mixing those two up, Israel and because I'm Jewish, I'm automatically going with whatever Israel decides to do, like bomb Lebanon, bomb Iran, taking over Palestine is completely wrong. I'm completely against anything that's going on in Israel right now that has to do with Netanyahu, that has to do

[Focus Group Participant 1]

with the idf, and I take my religion very seriously.

[Sarah Longwell]

And I'm American first, so that's really important.

[Focus Group Participant 1]

And I would think that Josh Shapiro

[Sarah Longwell]

can also go and discern between those.

[Focus Group Participant 1]

I think a bigger problem is that how Israel is framed, not like, not that Israel isn't, you know, their politicians aren't doing poor things just like Trump is doing poor things. Not that like most Israelis do not defend Netanyahu, they do not like their government, just like we. I think the problem is Zionism as a term is defined differently by Jews who believe that Israel has a right to exist versus how the majority, it seems, of Americans are now doing it because of a lot of discourse and media reframing of what that actually means, which just means that they have a right to self determination in their own land. And that does not negate the right of Palestinians to have self determination. And I think a two state solution, although is far fetched and not happening anytime soon, should be the ultimate goal. I think. Yeah. Will the whole of, you know, necessary numbers vote for a Jewish candidate? I think not because I think there's widespread anti Semitism that is so far like it has nothing to do with Israel. Israel is like, it's. Israel is like a good excuse.

[Focus Group Participant 2]

There's in between and people don't. You can't be in between in this country. It's either your far right or far left, no middle. And that's where I, I don't, I'm not a fan of that. It's like I hate Netanyahu. He will do anything he can to stay in power and we'll take any excuse possible. And for me, that's the thing I, I don't like, I hate the leadership there. The country itself is completely different from what the leadership is forcing them to do. It's not as easy as you as everyone thinks it's most like the people of Israel have their right, Palestinians have their right. And then now I was like it, I'll, I'll do whatever I want to keep myself in power and kill a bunch of people, which is an atrocity to say the least. But you can't say that in politics you have to be pro Israel, both parties essentially because that's one of our biggest allies. But in reality it's like, no, there are so many one issue voters and that Israel is so polarizing that a Jewish candidate who has taken a strong position there would find himself between a rock and a hard place.

[Sarah Longwell]

So that last voter was talking about Josh Shapiro. And as somebody, I'm from Pennsylvania, people who listen to me know I can, I can veer into Josh Shapiro stanning occasionally and people yell at me for that. There is like a crazy hostility to Josh Shapiro because I'm always like, guys, biggest swing state in the country. Like, he's super popular, he's about to win, like by Assad levels in the largest swing state. Like, let's give him a look. And people like Sarah, stop trying to make Josh Shapiro happen. But I still disagree with that assessment from that voter that Democrats wouldn't elect a Jewish person. I actually have a theory that in 2028 it will be a Jewish person. I think that the way that Democrats deal with this particular wedge is by having a Jewish candidate who is quite critical of Israel. Do you buy that theory or what do you think?

[Tommy Vitor]

I buy that theory in the sense that I could imagine two incredibly talented politic running for president who both happen to be Jewish. Right. John Ossoff, also Jewish. Hell of a strong candidate, Josh Shapiro. Look, I don't know that their religion would be the reason I'm picking up what you're putting down that exchange. First of all, that was a very high information group. Those people knew a lot about BP Net and Yahoo. And it wasn't just like one person kind of taking over the group. It was a lot of people who are very well informed. It was also interesting to me how many individuals would be like, look, I am a Jewish person. They would condemn the shit out of the Israeli government, what it's doing in Netanyahu. And then the individual there, I won't say his name, basically said it was hard to totally understand what he was saying about Josh Shapiro's electability. I think what he was saying was he couldn't be hard on the Israeli government because he's Jewish. Was that your takeaway?

[Sarah Longwell]

I heard a fair amount of this in the group, which is kind of a. You're not allowed to criticize Israel. Like. And their assumption is that as a candidate you would have to. As a Democratic candidate you'd have to be an ally to Israel. That like, there's no path in politics without being that way. I think they're wrong about this. I think they are. They're coming. This is like they're using a reference point that I think is maybe like 10 years old.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yes.

[Sarah Longwell]

And here's one other thing that's in there that I wonder if you were picking up on too, which is America first is another thing that is, is. Is in groups when they talk about Israel. And as you were talking about this earlier with the Middle east and how people are like, why are we still over there? Somebody literally said in one of the Democratic groups, like, I want to put America first. They don't like the idea that we are sending money somewhere else to their mind because people get very zero sum about this stuff. Every dollar that goes over there is a dollar we're not spending here. Which to me has also made this a bit of an affordability issue. I know this is going to be tenuous, but I'd still like to slightly make the case that a lot of this stuff does come back to why are we focused on these other things instead of here at home? And that that America first element that Trump really pounded on is, is in there for a lot of people. Like, this was also a Dem proposition a long time ago, which is. No, let's focus on, on, on America.

[Tommy Vitor]

Trump lied about being an isolationist and like America first and opposing wars. But it was a very savvy political position to take because it was a wedge issue. Because at first, you know, he was running against Hillary Clinton, who was viewed as a supporter of the Iraq war and viewed as more hawkish. Right. I mean, what was the famous Maureen Dowd headline like?

[Sarah Longwell]

Trump the Dove.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, whatever it was.

[Focus Group Participant 2]

Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

And so I, look, I think there is a, it's a very. Of opposing foreign aid, opposing, like military spending abroad, opposing getting involved in expensive wars overseas. I think is a really smart political position to take or it's like an easy one to demagogue. Now look, I hope, nerdy aside, I do hope Democrats, like think about what USAID 2.0 could look like. But that's a separate issue. I absolutely think a Jewish politician could be elected president. I think it's a totally dated assumption. It's actually quite silly to suggest that a Jewish candidate would somehow have to kowtow to Israel. Like as we are recording this, I think Rahm Emanuel is in Tel Aviv giving a speech denouncing the Netanyahu government, talking about all the ways the US Israel relationship has to change. So like, that's self evidently silly. Bernie Sanders is Jewish. Right. Like, you're right. This individual has sort of had like a, a dated kind of set of assumptions about American politics and electability.

[Sarah Longwell]

I actually do hear this from a lot of people. I would say casually in not, but like almost like professional circles where people say, well, nobody's going to elect somebody. Democrats won't elect a Jewish person. And I don't think that's right. I don't think that's right at all. I think that, yeah, Ossoff Pritzker. I mean, I don't think Rom is probably going far in the process, but Rahm is going to be an interesting addition to the field this time around. And Shapiro and I just. It is. It's funny to me, though, people really, I will say they do seem more focused on Shapiro. There's a sense that Shapiro has been much more overtly pro Israel. I've had him on, though, and I've talked to him, and I find him very smart on the issue. Very thoughtful, very knowledgeable. I'm not sure he's been anything other than critical of Netanyahu too, though. So I also think there's like, a weird perception of him. I do think that people are over indexing because the scale is getting bigger. There's no doubt whoever the next Democrat is is going to have to talk about reevaluating America's relationship with Israel. I do think, though, people who think that that person can't be Jewish is not correct.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think it's not correct either. Right now, I think the litmus test is, do you take APAC money? I think there's a question of whether it's going to continue to slide further and further to the left because, as you know, there are some people on the left who think you just simply are not credible talking about these issues unless you call what is happening in Gaza a genocide. Right. And I think that word makes some people, especially Jews, uncomfortable because of its connection to the Holocaust and because there is a feeling that the word maybe is being weaponized against them to suggest that the scale of suffering in Gaza is commensurate to what happened in the Holocaust. Right. I think, like, that. I'm just sort of articulating the concern.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. Or as a way to downplay the Holocaust in a way that sort of takes moral authority away from. From the Jewish people in some way. Like, I've definitely both heard that and occasionally have felt that way myself, listening to certain people talk about it.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think what's sort of a bit frustrating about this debate is like, ultimately, this is like a legal conversation. It's an academic conversation. There's obviously now a political component, but, like, under international law, there's a very clear definition of genocide. And the International Court of Justice has been reviewing a case against Israel since late 2023. They're not going to rule on that case for many years. Like, a final determination is going to be years away. In the interim, there have been many reports accusing Israel of genocide. There's one by the UN there's some by NGOs, including major Israeli human rights groups. There are scholars who have made the determination. But ultimately like at the moment it is a subjective one because there is no like final legal ruling. Right. And so, you know, like a year or so back I did an event with the lefty group that I won't name and we were talking about the war in Gaza and I called it a war and I literally got like heckled from the audience. People were like, it's a genocide. I was like, oh, okay. Sort of. That's where this litmus test has been set in some parts of the political left. And like on the one hand I understand it, but I do think it's, you know, it's a word that some people are going to be uncomfortable using and you know, that demand is going to continue if you are running in a democratic primary, for example.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. And there is, I mean, so I get yelled at by the left a fair amount on the Internet and they have just started calling me a Zionist. Like it's like the, it's like the catch. All I even I'm getting told I, I am funded by apac, which is a weird thing because I'm not. But it is, it is becoming this thing that people sort of hurl all at the people they're mad at.

[Tommy Vitor]

And I think like that's where things get pretty uncomfortable when, when it sort of starts to feel pejorative. When there is a sense that anti Zionism can veer into anti Semitism. I think that's where this gets bad and very uncomfortable.

[Sarah Longwell]

How do we. And maybe I'm being too pat with my. But it could be Jon Ossoff and you know, and everything will be okay. What do we do to have like a productive conversation about American foreign policy that does allow for a reevaluation of our relationship with Israel, but that does not countenance any antisemitism.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, look, I think you have to loudly denounce when anti Zionism veers into anti Semitism. And some of the examples are easy. Like some guy firebombed Governor Josh Shapiro's house because of what he claimed he was doing to his friends, to the Palestinian people. That is like obviously an anti Semitic act. We need to call it that out. Some individual firebombed a peaceful march in support of the Israeli hostages in Colorado. He tried to claim it was an anti Zionist act. There's no legitimate act of anti Zionism that involves firebombing an 88 year old holocaust victim. That is just, that's terrorism. Right. And so I think what we need to do as a political party is make people who are horrified by the events in Gaza feel heard and like they're considered like, like we are hearing them, we are not dismissing them. We're not saying this is like kind of the protest flavor of the month and that the party itself is course correcting and going to approach the US Israel relationship differently. Now, I don't think that means cutting off Israel entirely. It doesn't mean like treating Israel as a pariah state, but I just mean rethinking things like the amount of military support we give them every year. It does mean, I think, treating them like a, a more normal country where there's a carrot in the stick approach to things and also talking about things like the treatment of Palestinians in the west bank, pushing Israel to actually in good faith engage in peace talks around a Palestinian state. I personally think the two state solution is dead at this moment. Maybe in a post Netanyahu world it can be revived. But I do think part of the problem has been that Netanyahu kind of paid lip service to the two state solution in 2009, and by 2015 he was bragging about how he killed it off. Right. Like you have an Israeli government that is currently actively hostile to the creation of a Palestinian state. So part of it is going to be like kind of legitimate policy differences and tweaking the Democratic Party platform. Hopefully some of this will come from new leadership in the Israeli government. And then I also think like, just we have to do something to like stop the killing in Gaza and end the war in Iran permanently. Like, those are things that are inflaming these problems over and over again. Like obviously anti Semitism is a scourge. It's existed for thousands of years. People don't need a reason to be anti Semitic. We've seen that over centuries. But it's also true that when the war in Gaza started, when the war in Iran started, you saw more and more and more of these incidents.

[Sarah Longwell]

All right, this last bit of sound is really important, as I think we heard in that last clip. Criticizing Israel does not necessarily mean people are subscribing to all of the litmus tests we're seeing in primaries or necessarily that invested in the issue. So let's listen to some of the people who are more mixed on the issue.

[Tommy Vitor]

We've found ourselves in a place where an ally seems to. We seem to put the wishes and desires and demands of this ally above our own interests as a country. I think that's Whack, for lack of a better word. So I'm not looking for candidates who are, like, disavowing Israel or, like, trying to say we shouldn't care about them as an ally, but we need somebody who can kind of reset that relationship and not have, you know, I feel like we're in a place where we're almost, like, dictated to what's going to happen. Let them handle their business. The issue is we're, we're getting up in that too much. So I'd prefer, especially in a primary situation, a candidate who distances themselves from that situation.

[Sarah Longwell]

What's happening in Israel has been happening since before any of us were on the planet. This is going to be an ongoing war, regardless of what you believe.

[Tommy Vitor]

I just believe if we need to

[Sarah Longwell]

stay out the people business, and the only thing I think the United States

[Focus Group Participant 3]

should do

[Sarah Longwell]

in that is make sure there are no human rights violations going on, but let the people work out their business, because it's not going to stop.

[Focus Group Participant 1]

Like, if there's a candidate who is

[Sarah Longwell]

willing to take a stronger stance in

[Focus Group Participant 1]

support of Palestine, like, that might be one of the issues that could convince me on a specific candidate at the primary, but at the end of the day, I don't, like, I don't see

[Sarah Longwell]

a situation in which I withhold a vote from a Democrat in the general

[Focus Group Participant 1]

election just, just because kind of like Veronica said, this is not a new

[Sarah Longwell]

issue and it's not going to go away.

[Tommy Vitor]

I just want to be able to support a candidate that's America first, US first, and then not Israeli. And I want to support a candidate that's not fueling what's happening over there right now.

[Focus Group Participant 2]

It's, you know, it's being run by Netanyahu, which is, to me, you know, the Israeli Trump. I'm Jewish, for one thing, and I, I love being Jewish, and I respect and love the Israeli people, but I also love the Palestinian people. I think what's happening right now is that the governments, you know, it's, it's, it's the two governments that are the problem. It's not the people. And the result of these wars and these conflicts are, are that the people suffer. Was it bad that, that, you know, it wasn't the, it wasn't the Palestinian people that came over and, you know, attacked Israel. It's always, it's always the, the, the government or the, the, you know, there are, you know, the terrorist cells, but it's not the actual, you know, Joe and Jane, you know, citizen and hundreds of thousands of people or, you know, tens of thousands of people died recently, you know, Palestinians more than even Israelis, you know, because Israelis have more weapons.

[Sarah Longwell]

I'll just note that literally one of them said America first in that sound, which again, I really felt like was replete. And the other thing that somebody said in that group was when they called Netanyahu the Israeli Trump and I did, it sort of kicked off something for me that I think has been in this conversation. But I do wonder how much the Democrats really, you know, hating Trump, as I do, too. And seeing Netanyahu as a real ally to Trump has also shifted the opinions, because I was. You talked about many of them being high information. I was a little startled by how much people had thought about this issue and how much people knew about it and how particular it was to Netanyahu. And do you think a lot of it comes from the fact that he is, to Americans something of a Trump like figure?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, he is a Trump like figure, period. The guy's been around forever. He's been in office for decades. And I think if you're a Democrat, especially a young Democrat, you've only known Israel as being led by Netanyahu, and you were kind of introduced to him in what, 2009, he was disrespecting Obama and kind of a prick. And then you Fast forward to 2015, and he's coming to Congress to deliver a speech in front of a joint session of Congress without telling the White House in advance to oppose Obama's signature foreign policy initiative, which is the jcpoa, the Iran nuclear deal. Right. So Netanyahu very much made the US Israel relationship partisan and forged a bond with the Republican Party. And then he went all in on Trump. And I think that everyone, when that was happening, everyone said that's the worst thing that he could possibly do for Israel's political standing with the US because you're, you're making this partisan. But he did it anyway because it benefited him. What I heard in a lot of those comments was anger about the war with Iran and feeling like we were being led to make, you know, political decisions that were not beneficial to our national security. I think there's some truth to that with the latest round of fighting, but it also kind of pushes back on a sentiment you would always hear in kind of like foreign policy circles in Washington. I'm sure you've heard this all the time, that there should be no daylight between the US And Israel on policy, that if we're going to disagree, we have to do it behind the scenes, and we can't disagree in public. And I think that's another thing that was sort of like, doesn't make any sense. And it's sort of taking away the power from the president, United States. Like, you can't. You can't tell another country when we disagree with them on something. Why? Right. And I think that's sort of reflected in some of the commentary here. The last point just I want to make, Sarah, is like, I admire the hopefulness of that last person who was saying, look, the problem is the two leaders, and obviously the problem is Hamas on October 7th. And I think there's a lot of truth to that. I do think there is just a lot of work to do to change hearts and minds within the populations of Israel and Palestine also. And I think, like, there was a poll out, I think it was Pew, that they asked, can Israel and Palestinian state coexist peacefully? I think only 21% of Israeli adults said yes. And that number goes way down if you just ask Jewish Israelis. And the reason is because people are scarred after October 7th. And I think it's worth us thinking about how fucked up we were after 9, 11, and how scared we were and how terrified and how that led to a series of bad decisions. And so what I worry is getting lost in the debate, especially from the left, is just a sense of empathy for the Israeli people and the trauma that they went through on October 7th and since. And that in no way is taking away from the trauma felt by people in Gaza or by the Palestinian people or, you know, for years and years of suffering. Like, I think we just have to do both at the same time. We just have to have, like, empathy and understanding for where people are coming from on these issues and kind of, like, make them feel heard and supported, including Jews in the US who feel like anti Semitism is on the rise and no one seems to care about it anymore.

[Sarah Longwell]

Yeah. And this is where I think leadership. And the next, you know, whoever the nominee is on the Democratic side or during the Democratic primary, the ability to show leadership on this issue is going to be critical because you can appeal to people's worst impulses, and you can use this issue to wedge them against each other for your own political purposes, or you can find a way to sort of lead everybody in a better direction that is rooted in sort of love for people, respect for humanity, and our ability to sort of mutually coexist and elevate sort of the pluralistic values that make America be at its best when it is at its best. Tommy Vitor, you were excellent, and it was great to see you. Thank you so much for joining us. And then what? What do you want to say?

[Tommy Vitor]

I said I was great to see you, too. Maybe someday we could do a focus group on a topic where you don't feel like you're on a high wire for 45 minutes.

[Sarah Longwell]

Did you feel that way? I don't feel that way.

[Focus Group Participant 2]

I.

[Tommy Vitor]

Like, I have been involved in these debates for decades now. I talk for a living. And still this issue feels so fraught because there's people who police your speech. You don't want to upset anyone. There's boundaries you don't want to cross. But, like, you know, everyone, I think we'd all benefit from more open and honest conversations like this. So I'm glad we did it.

[Sarah Longwell]

Me, too. I, you know, I choose old friends from college to have the hardest conversations with because it's like what we would do if we were just, you know, having some beers, hanging out in the college dorm room. Now everyone gets to hear it. Hopefully we're better informed now than we were back then. All right, thanks to all of you for listening to another episode of the Folks Group podcast. We'll be back next week, but in the meantime, you know, rate, review, subscribe, do all the things, become a Bulwark plus member at thebullwork.com and we'll see you next week.