Podcast Summary: The Foreign Affairs Interview

Episode: Can America’s Allies Survive the Transatlantic Rupture?
Host: Daniel Kurtz-Phelan (Foreign Affairs Editor)
Guest: Chrystia Freeland (Former Canadian Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister, current volunteer advisor to President Zelensky)
Date: February 19, 2026

Overview

In this episode, Daniel Kurtz-Phelan sits down with Chrystia Freeland during the Munich Security Conference to discuss the enduring fissures and prospects in the transatlantic alliance amidst Donald Trump’s second presidential term. They delve into strategies for America’s allies as trust in U.S. leadership erodes, the changing contours of allied relationships, and Ukraine’s pivotal battlefield role as Europe faces renewed Russian aggression. Freeland shares insights from her governmental experience and from her current advisory work in Ukraine, reflecting on the lessons and risks for middle powers, the evolving approach toward Trump’s America, and the shifting role of Ukraine in European defense.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Transatlantic Rupture: Tone vs. Substance (00:05–05:55)

• Shift in U.S. Tone at Munich Security Conference:
  Freeland identifies a significant change in U.S. messaging, noting Senator Rubio’s more conciliatory speech compared to previous confrontational approaches.

  • Quote (Chrystia Freeland, 02:28):
    “It was the same message, but delivered with a smile. That makes a difference, though, when you have a partnership… it matters whether in public you're yelling and screaming at the partner versus being a bit more generous and friendly and partner like.”

• Persistent European Desire for the Alliance Despite Doubts:
  European leaders, notably Chancellor Friedrich Merz, remain committed to the relationship but are increasingly pragmatic, recognizing that “love must be reciprocal.”

  • Quote (Chrystia Freeland, 04:32):
    “You should be able to be friends with [Merz] if you are American. But even he was speaking about a rift… The desire for a strong transatlantic relationship is maybe weaker today than it has been in the past.”

2. Strategic Adjustments: Middle Powers and U.S. Allies (05:55–10:40)

• Redefining Alliances and Middle Powers:
  Freeland distinguishes between ‘middle powers’ and ‘U.S. allies’, cautioning against assuming their interests always overlap. She urges allies to focus on distinct strategies relevant to their alliance status.

  • Quote (Chrystia Freeland, 07:08):
    “That is a Venn diagram. That is not two overlapping circles. There are some American allies who are middle powers… I wouldn't confuse what is a strategy for middle powers with… what is the strategy for U.S. allies today?”

• Security Self-Reliance & Trade Paradox:
  Allies increasingly recognize the need for defense autonomy but remain eager for economic partnership—even as U.S. intentions are ambiguous.

  • Quote (Chrystia Freeland, 08:45):
    “On trade, there's more of a paradox… The American allies still want to trade with the U.S., and it's not entirely clear what kind of an economic relationship America wants with its former allies.”

• Evolving Approach to the Trump Administration:
  Initial attempts at appeasement have been replaced by a more assertive approach, marked by respectful firmness and reciprocal action.

  • Quote (Chrystia Freeland, 09:34):
    “You need to be respectful. You need to seek areas of mutual interest. You also need to hold your ground… My motto during the NAFTA negotiations was, we will not escalate, but we will not back down.”

3. Negotiating with the Trump Administration: Lessons and Leverage (10:40–16:50)

• Realpolitik in Practice:
  Allies’ best leverage is rooted in shared interest: offering benefits to the U.S. that also serve U.S. needs—like security cooperation or trade in critical goods.

  • Quote (Chrystia Freeland, 15:51):
    “If what you are saying is we want to be your allies in the world… that’s a pretty good offer to make to the United States... That’s a pretty good position to be arguing.”

• Rejecting Capitulation:
  The ‘do not escalate, do not back down’ policy, tested during NAFTA and more recent disputes (e.g., Greenland), now shapes European and Canadian postures. Freeland argues that accepting provocations or territorial claims as “noise” is both naïve and dangerous.

4. Defending Sovereignty and Avoiding Divisiveness (16:50–22:31)

• Responding to U.S. Rhetoric on Canadian Sovereignty:
  Freeland strongly rejects the idea of taking U.S. threats lightly, citing the unity across Canadian political lines in response to talk of Alberta as a ‘51st state’.

  • Quote (Chrystia Freeland, 17:06):
    “It’s a big mistake to dismiss stuff like that as noise.”

  • Quote (Chrystia Freeland, 18:35):
    “He’s reminded us… we’ve become that way [more patriotic] because we feel the threat.”

• Engaging Beyond the White House: Donut Strategy:
  Freeland recommends building alliances across America—including Congress, governors, unions, and businesses—so that the bilateral relationship doesn’t rest solely with the executive branch.

  • Quote (Chrystia Freeland, 20:30):
    “There was sort of a sense that all of Canada was drafted into that… If you have an American client, heck, if you have an American friend, talk to them about the value of this relationship.”

• Cautious Optimism for U.S. Leadership:
  Freeland warns against ‘writing America off’, invoking Churchill’s quip that America usually does the right thing—but only after trying everything else.

  • Quote (Chrystia Freeland, 22:09):
    “We’re in the trying everything else phase right now… But I think we shouldn’t rule out that you will end up doing the right thing.”

5. Ukraine’s War and Transformative Role in Europe (23:41–34:53)

• U.S. Policy Confusion & Ukraine’s Resolve:
  Freeland refrains from speculating on Trump administration intentions but focuses on Ukraine’s clarity of purpose: determined defense of sovereignty and democracy.

  • Quote (Chrystia Freeland, 24:13): “In some ways, we are all Ukrainians now… if you want to be a sovereign country… you may have to put your life on the line.”

• Russia’s Strategic Miscalculation:
  Putin’s invasion has inadvertently united Ukrainians against the Russian cultural sphere and unexpectedly bonded European sympathies to Kyiv.

  • Quote (Chrystia Freeland, 26:15):
    “Putin has done something which no Ukrainian national leader was able to do… [he] fully turned Ukraine away from the Russian cultural space.”

• Ukrainian Innovations on the Battlefield:
  She highlights the disproportionate Russian casualties, Ukrainian drone warfare, and the shift in how European governments now view Ukraine—not just as a victim to be aided, but as Europe’s “shield and arsenal.”

  • Quote (Chrystia Freeland, 31:06):
    “The Ukrainian strength that they see… is they are seeing Ukraine as Europe’s shield, and they are seeing Ukraine as Europe’s arsenal… They are good at fighting that war, but they are good at inventing that war and manufacturing the drones and developing the technology for that war.”

  • Quote (Chrystia Freeland, 34:58):
    “Hugely, hugely. And for two reasons, right? Because the Europeans see a potential threat from Putin. …They are realizing they need the Ukrainian military in NATO, because if we need to defend ourselves, guess who is the best at doing it.”

6. The Path Forward: Optimism, Justice, and Security Guarantees (36:23–39:11)

• A ‘Wild Dream’ for Ukraine:
  Freeland envisions, optimistically, the war ending with a militarily and economically viable Ukraine, EU membership, and—ideally—NATO security guarantees.

  • Quote (Chrystia Freeland, 36:36):
    “I hope the war is over—on terms that leave Ukraine strategically viable, from a military perspective and from an economic perspective… My own view is NATO membership for Ukraine would be the best path for Ukraine and for NATO.”

• Historical Warning Against Appeasement:
  She cautions against any settlement that echoes the 1938 Munich Agreement, warning the U.S. and Europe not to seek expedient peace at the cost of future instability.

  • Quote (Chrystia Freeland, 38:29):
    “History will not judge kindly anyone who is party to an agreement on Ukraine which future historians liken to the Sudetenland.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We will not escalate, but we will not back down.” (Chrystia Freeland on Canada’s NAFTA and Trump negotiation strategy, 09:34)
• “Americans actually don't want to have a fight with Canada. Americans actually think it's absurd to have a fight with Europe over Greenland.” (Freeland, 21:36)
• “In some ways, we are all Ukrainians now.” (Freeland, 24:13)
• “Ukrainians have come up with a way of fighting the war that is really imposing a huge and horrific cost on Russia. 35,000 casualties a month, Russian casualties… and the Ukrainian casualties are much, much lower. …because of this drone warfare.” (Freeland, 28:08)
• “Ukraine as Europe’s arsenal… The Europeans are saying, wow, we need these guys. They’re really good at fighting, and we’re gonna need someone who knows how to fight.” (Freeland, 33:25)
• “History will not judge kindly anyone who is party to an agreement on Ukraine which future historians liken to the Sudetenland.” (Freeland, 38:29)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Transatlantic Tone and ‘The Rupture’: 00:05–05:55
• Strategies for Allies and Middle Powers: 05:55–10:40
• Approach to Trump and Lessons from NAFTA: 10:40–16:50
• Canadian Sovereignty and Responding to U.S. Rhetoric: 16:50–22:31
• Donut Strategy and Not Writing Off America: 20:30–22:31
• Taking Stock of Ukraine and the War: 23:41–34:53
• Ukraine as Arsenal & Shield; NATO and the Future: 34:53–36:23
• Optimistic Endgame and Historical Lessons: 36:23–39:11

Takeaway

Chrystia Freeland offers a nuanced, experience-driven assessment of the fraught transatlantic moment. While Trump’s America continues to test allied resolve, Europe and Canada are learning to assert themselves, maintain crucial partnerships, and adapt to new realities. The future of Ukraine lies at the heart of European security and identity, transforming from a recipient of aid to a central pillar in the continent’s defense—not just morally, but technologically and militarily. The imperative for America’s allies is clear: pursue self-reliance without surrendering the possibility of renewed U.S. cooperation, and support Ukraine not only as a matter of principle, but as a matter of continental security.