Podcast Summary

The Foreign Affairs Interview

Episode: Is America Ready for the Age of Cyber Warfare?
Date: September 18, 2025
Host: Daniel Kurtz-Phelan
Guest: Anne Neuberger, Former Deputy National Security Advisor for Cyber and Emerging Technology

Overview of the Episode

In this episode, Daniel Kurtz-Phelan speaks with Anne Neuberger, former top cybersecurity official at the White House, about the rising threat of cyber warfare, focusing on the U.S.–China competition. The discussion centers on recent Chinese cyber intrusions, especially the Salt Typhoon attack, the vulnerabilities in U.S. critical infrastructure, and the future of cyber defense strategies—particularly the roles of artificial intelligence, public-private partnerships, deterrence, and emerging technology. The conversation also examines the geopolitical ramifications and the evolving state of bipartisan support for technological and security policy in the U.S.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Salt Typhoon: Anatomy of a Chinese Cyber Attack

• [02:33] Neuberger describes Salt Typhoon as a sweeping Chinese intrusion campaign targeting U.S. telecommunications, with access going undetected for years.
• China’s campaign included stealing data, surveilling communications, and tracking intelligence and law enforcement officers by accessing the very “gold mine” of American telecom data.
• “China essentially turned our telecommunications companies into an espionage vehicle, you know, into a global SIGINT system, a signals intelligence system.”
  — Anne Neuberger [04:15]

Is this Just Spy-vs-Spy?

• Host Question [05:31]: Is this meaningfully different from U.S. cyber operations against adversaries?
• Neuberger: The scale, persistence, and undetected presence show a systemic American vulnerability rather than routine espionage; “We should not be blase about” the significance or the asymmetry.

2. China’s Broader Campaign—From Espionage to Pre-Positioning for Disruption

• [06:52] China has not only conducted espionage but inserted malware into infrastructure: energy, water, transportation.
• This pre-positioning gives China leverage to disrupt or disable not just for spying, but to delay U.S. military mobilization or coerce U.S. leadership in a crisis (e.g., Taiwan Strait conflict).
• “One could see China potentially threatening to disable parts of critical infrastructure and leaving future US leadership having to balance and consider the impact on the homeland if the US gets involved in a particular crisis.”
  — Anne Neuberger [09:11]

3. American Vulnerability: Systemic, Not Just Technological

• For 15+ years, despite intensive focus, U.S. critical infrastructure remains “unready for battle” [10:26], primarily because these sectors are mostly privately owned and lightly regulated.
  • In contrast, China’s centralized, authoritarian system exercises strict surveillance and control (the “Great Firewall”).
• Neuberger argues that the U.S. can reach a level of confidence in defending vital networks, but achieving this requires coordinated efforts across government and private sector:
  • “It’s more challenging in our system because that responsibility is across government and the private sector. But we must.”
    — Anne Neuberger [13:31]

4. The Global Race Over Telecommunications (5G/6G)

• [14:01] U.S. policy, despite efforts across administrations, is still lagging behind Huawei’s dominance in global 5G infrastructure.
• China’s edge comes from:
  • Heavy state investment
  • A closed domestic market for product development and profit
  • Intellectual property theft, and
  • Below-cost subsidizing of exports (creating replacement barriers in allied countries)
• U.S. and allied attempts to counter Huawei include financing alternatives (Ex-Im Bank, DFC), but lack of viable competitors on price remains a barrier.
• “We have not resolved the core issue: the absence of alternative technologies that can compete with China’s on price. That has not changed.”
  — Anne Neuberger [19:32]

5. Limits of Cyber Diplomacy and Regulatory Response

• Diplomatic agreements (e.g., Obama–Xi on cyber restraint) failed; China broke promises, expanded from espionage to disruptive capabilities.
• Over time, U.S. response shifted from voluntary guidance to mandating minimal cyber requirements in critical sectors: “In the last administration, the White House used emergency authorities to put in place requirements…”
  — Anne Neuberger [22:46]

6. Offense, Defense, and Deterrence: The Persistent Engagement Doctrine

• [26:25] Persistent engagement (actively degrading adversary cyber capabilities) has helped—but China’s scale means these operations need to be much larger.

• U.S. doctrine remains constrained by “home field vulnerabilities”—the fear that offensive action might provoke unmanageable counter-attacks on critical services.

• “We need a more integrated approach across defense and offense, including persistent engagement, to be able to answer affirmatively [that our networks can withstand attacks].”
  — Anne Neuberger [28:49]

• Deterrence applies in cyber, but with differences:

  • Attribution is harder but improving thanks to AI
  • The bar for resilience (rapid recovery) is higher
  • Many more actors and lower barriers than in nuclear doctrine

7. Artificial Intelligence: The Double-Edged Sword

• [31:39] AI now assists both offense and defense:

  • Attacker: AI finds vulnerabilities faster, and exploits can be built rapidly.
  • Defender: AI improves attribution, automates defense, and enables “digital twin” modeling of real-world systems for resilience testing.
  • “AI helps both offense and defense. It is a major help on one of the key problems in defense…to enable us to draw those links and identify who the ultimate attacker is.”
    — Anne Neuberger [31:47]

• AI also offers a way for U.S. to play to its strengths (innovation, tech leadership) while preserving the public–private model and democratic values, instead of mimicking China’s centralized approach [33:33].

8. Changing State–Private Sector Dynamics Post-2024

• Recent administrations have demanded more from the private sector in infrastructure defense—norms are shifting.
• Bipartisan consensus has historically been a strength; minimum requirements (“red, yellow, green” system for rating risks) are now policy.

9. Future of Intelligence in the Age of AI

• AI/automation threatens to make traditional human intelligence (“spying”) far more difficult due to expanded surveillance, deepfakes, gait/facial analysis.
• The intelligence community must adapt—rethinking how information is collected, analyzed, and rapidly conveyed to policymakers.
  • “The challenge really for us is to reimagine how we do intelligence in the age of AI.”
    — Anne Neuberger [43:42]

10. Politicization and Erosion of Intelligence Community Norms

• Recent firings of senior U.S. intelligence officials raise concerns about analytic integrity and politicization.
• Neuberger emphasizes the longstanding apolitical ethos of U.S. intelligence and the urgent need to rebuild public trust.
  • “Inside NSA people genuinely felt we're here to protect America...That’s who the intelligence community is.”
    — Anne Neuberger [46:44]

11. Competing Approaches to Emerging Tech Policy (Trump vs Biden)

• Biden: More restraint, export controls—keeping AI/chip technologies away from adversaries.

• Trump: Let American firms lead globally and profit, with minimal restriction.

• Neuberger: Running faster—out-innovating—is ultimately “how you win,” not just holding back competitors.

  • “The real way you win a competition is by running faster, not by holding a competitor down.”
    — Anne Neuberger [51:37]

• Worries about cuts to research funding, limits on foreign talent, and undermining the innovation ecosystem.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On U.S. Vulnerability:
  “We can be better, and that’s what the piece talks about. What are the steps we can take to prevent this kind of Chinese intelligence success in the future?”
  — Anne Neuberger [06:10]

• On the Stakes of Infrastructure Intrusions:
  “You could see China causing issues in the port navigation system or in an air traffic control system in order to disable flights…delaying service members’ ability to deploy in the event of a crisis or conflict.”
  — Anne Neuberger [09:11]

• On U.S. Cyber Defenses:
  “I actually believe that we can get our cyber defenses to where we have confidence that our most important networks cannot be disrupted by an adversary.”
  — Anne Neuberger [13:31]

• On AI as a Game-Changer:
  “We truly believe the US possesses the technical capabilities, the innovation, and the work across government and private sector to reclaim the advantage in the digital battle space. And this is really a call to action, to say, we can’t wait any longer. We need to act now.”
  — Anne Neuberger [40:29]

• On Politicization of Intelligence:
  “...there very much is a culture of non partisanship. People keep politics out of the workplace because the nation's security is not political... I would hope...that the culture of the community, the sense of its past and its future, would continue...”
  — Anne Neuberger [46:44–50:47]

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | Speaker | |-----------|------------------------------|-----------| | 02:33 | What is Salt Typhoon? | Neuberger | | 09:11 | Infrastructure disruption scenario | Neuberger | | 13:31 | Can U.S. build cyber resilience? | Neuberger | | 19:32 | Why we can’t outcompete Huawei (yet) | Neuberger | | 22:46 | From voluntary guidance to federal mandates | Neuberger | | 26:25 | Persistent engagement and its limits | Neuberger | | 31:47 | How AI changes attribution and defense | Neuberger | | 33:33 | AI as a solution to the democracy-autocracy asymmetry | Neuberger | | 43:42 | Future of intelligence in the age of AI | Neuberger | | 46:44 | Politicization in the intelligence community | Neuberger | | 51:37 | Competing models: export controls vs innovation | Neuberger |

Tone & Language

The conversation is urgent, sobering, and focused on clear-eyed analysis of U.S. vulnerabilities and policy failures, but also pragmatic and frequently optimistic about the potential to address these challenges through innovation, partnership, and bipartisan cooperation.

Conclusion

Daniel Kurtz-Phelan and Anne Neuberger’s discussion provides a comprehensive and candid look at America’s readiness for cyber warfare in an era of escalating U.S.–China technological rivalry. While the threats from Chinese cyber operations are daunting—highlighted by the undetected, invasive scale of the Salt Typhoon campaign—Neuberger points to actionable solutions rooted in American strengths: innovation, partnership, and the intelligent application of AI. The episode closes with a call for urgency, unity, and renewed public-private cooperation to secure America’s digital landscape.