#386 - Trent & Tyler Leon - Co-Founders @ Tilden Capital

Summary

POWERS Podcast Episode #386 Summary

Trent & Tyler Leon – Co-Founders, Tilden Capital
Host: Chris Powers
Release Date: May 20, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this engaging and candid episode, brothers Trent and Tyler Leon, co-founders of Tilden Capital, return to the POWERS podcast for a deep dive into their impressive trajectory from elite junior golfers to Division I athletes, professional golf, and ultimately, high-level entrepreneurship in the oil and gas sector. The conversation, expertly moderated by host Chris Powers, threads together the Leon brothers’ rare family story, the relentless demands of excellence both in sports and business, and the pragmatic optimism that guides their approach to risk, leadership, and adaptation in an ever-changing industry.
While the first hour draws memorable stories and leadership lessons from their golf journey, the latter half delves into nuanced perspectives on oil & gas investing, capital allocation, risk discipline, and building enduring relationships in business.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Family, Sports, and the Early Pursuit of Excellence

[03:29–23:18]

• Sibling Competition and Support: The conversation begins with sibling dynamics, with both brothers acknowledging their sister Taylor as the best golfer in the family, given her LPGA career and tenacity. (03:29–04:03)
• Upbringing in Golf: Growing up in Texas, the brothers reflect on how their father's twin-like closeness and positive approach shaped their competitive yet supportive relationship. (04:14–07:15)
• Family Anecdotes: The infamous “wedding ring sawed off” story highlights a family culture of healthy competitiveness and swift reconciliation. (07:31–09:53)
• Joining Gleneagles: Their skill developed rapidly after plugging into a high-achieving youth golf culture at Gleneagles Country Club in Dallas, playing alongside future collegiate stars. (09:53–11:43)
• Turning Point Moments: Tyler recalls his Texas State Junior win as a pivotal confidence boost (13:18), while Trent highlights holding his own against 18-year-olds at MCI Heritage as a marker of his growth (13:46).

“I never wanted Tyler to play bad. I just wanted to play better.” — Trent Leon [06:15]

2. The IMG Academy Experience and College Choices

[15:50–31:54]

• Transition to IMG: Trent’s academic struggles prompted their move to IMG Academy, even if Tyler wasn’t initially enthusiastic. A gift from their dad, “Who Moved My Cheese?”, instilled a lesson in adaptability. (15:50–17:54)
• Fellow Alumni: The brothers reminisce about notable contemporaries such as Casey Wittenberg, Ty Tryon, Sean O’Hair, and Peter Uihlein. (18:42–19:27)
• Gaming Recruiting: Both describe the early and often aggressive recruitment tactics of D1 collegiate programs. Mike Holder, legendary Oklahoma State coach, is remembered for his up-close recruiting approach. (24:05–25:38)
• Deciding on OSU: Both ultimately chose Oklahoma State after evaluating other top programs, valuing the culture, golf legacy, and the chance to play alongside friends. Tyler’s recruiting trip with future stars sealed the deal. (25:42–29:10)
• Family Reflection: Their unique journey—three siblings as D1 golfers—was fueled by their father's selfless investment and persistent belief in their potential. (31:54–35:18)

“Like, as a little kid, I thought I could run through a wall if my dad told me I could. He just built it up.” — Trent Leon [34:00]

3. Collegiate and Professional Golf Realities

[35:33–47:31]

• Championship Wins: Both reminisce on the nerves and intensity of chasing and winning the 2006 NCAA Championship at Oklahoma State [37:03–37:48].
• Pro Career Lessons: The brothers reflect on the realities and relentless competition in professional golf. Tyler’s “aha moment” came in a PGA Monday qualifier, realizing that even world-class players often grind for minimal financial reward—prompting him to redirect his career. (42:23–44:41, 43:28 Notable Quote)
• Gracefully Moving On: Both brothers explicitly reject regret, proud of their commitment to golf and equally energized to transfer that discipline into their next venture. (44:03–47:31)

“If you’re the 400th best golfer, you’re worth like $70,000…and you’re really good. You shoot under par all the time...That was an aha moment.” — Tyler Leon [43:40]

4. Oil & Gas: Adaptation, Risk, and Value Creation

[48:38–75:29]

• Industry Landscape and Policy Impact: The Leons explain how U.S. political cycles impact oil and gas investment, especially regarding investor confidence and long-term capital. Despite lower prices, optimism is growing with a pro-energy administration. (48:38–50:53)
• Permian Basin & Inventory: They discuss evolving perceptions of tier-one inventory in the oil-rich Permian, noting both the resource’s resilience and the ever-expanding application of new tech to revive overlooked plays (e.g., the “new” Barnett shale in the Permian). (51:58–54:44)
• Risk Approach: Known for “paying too much”, Trent and Tyler clarify their risk/reward framework—seeking option value in properties others deemed too risky, and likening this to going for a par-5 in two. Their focus is absolute dollar return, not just IRR, and they often underwrite “bonus” zones for future upside. (55:18–58:00)

“Golf was a great example of risk/reward. Should I go for this par five with the 3-iron in my hand over water, or should I lay up?” — Tyler Leon [57:55]

• Navigating Regulation: They detail the complexities of federal land, environmental constraints (highlighting the “prairie chicken” issue), and the shift toward operator prudence and free cash flow. (58:32–62:26)
• Team & Leadership: Tilden Capital runs extraordinarily lean—with 13 core staff—by leveraging trusted partners (notably Pegasus) and personally pricing most deals. They view keeping a small, capable team as a strategic advantage. (64:09–68:18)

“Big deals take the same amount of time as little deals, so work on big deals. And relationships matter…That’s what our dad always told us.” — Tyler Leon [71:02]

• Relationship-Driven Business: Tilden’s edge in acquiring large family mineral deals traces to years of relationship-building, trustworthiness, and a long-game mindset, as opposed to transactional opportunism. (68:18–72:00)
• Simplicity & Focus: Despite distractions, the Leons remain laser-focused on their core mineral acquisition business, resisting the “shiny object” trap of expanding into unrelated investments. (72:00–73:47)
• Future Outlook: They aim to stay land-driven but may eventually build a small operating team for select drilling ventures, while always maintaining their mineral-buying focus. (74:04–75:17)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On family culture:

  "He made...as a little kid, I thought I could run through a wall if my dad told me I could. He just built it up..." — Trent Leon [34:00]

• On risk in golf vs. business:

  “Golf was a great example of risk/reward. Should I go for this par five with the 3-iron in my hand over water...?” — Tyler Leon [57:55]

• On being world-class but not wealthy:

  “If you’re the 400th best golfer, you’re worth like $70,000...and you’re really good.” — Tyler Leon [43:40]

• On relationships and big deals:

  “Big deals take the same amount of time as little deals, so work on big deals. And relationships matter.” — Tyler Leon [71:02]

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Important Timestamps

• Sibling & Family Golf Stories: [03:29–14:18]
• IMG Academy & College Choices: [15:50–31:54]
• Oklahoma State & Winning Mentality: [35:33–39:03]
• Pro Golf Financial Realities / Transition: [42:23–47:31]
• Oil & Gas Industry Landscape/Policy: [48:38–51:53]
• Permian/Tier 1 Inventory & Barnett: [51:58–54:44]
• Risk/Reward Framework: [55:18–58:00]
• Team Structure & Leadership: [64:09–68:18]
• Long-Game Relationship Building: [68:18–72:00]
• Focus and Future Strategy: [72:00–75:17]

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Tone and Takeaways

The Leon brothers’ banter and humility, combined with Chris Powers’ informed curiosity, make the podcast accessible and inspiring. The episode is full of actionable insights on discipline, risk-taking, team design, and the power of sustained relationship-building, all delivered with the straight-talk, understated confidence, and thoroughly Texan optimism characteristic of POWERS guests.

For builders, investors, athletes, and operators alike, this conversation radiates both practical wisdom and an indomitable attitude toward “grinding it out” at the highest level—whether on the golf course or in the boardroom.

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Recommended For:
Entrepreneurs, investors, young athletes, oil & gas professionals, or anyone interested in personal growth, risk management, and the compounding value of discipline and relationships.

Transcript

[A]

You see how, how good they are day to day. Phil Mickelson was close to my locker and I got to chat up with him a little bit and see him play. Played in a group in front of me. And it was fascinating to me. I was just like, man, there's some really good players and, you know, names you kind of forget over time. And I'm in these Monday qualifiers. I'm like, damn, this guy Chris Riley was in the Writer cup six years before. How's he at a Monday qualifier with me?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I just saw how, how good you have to be all the time. And the fascinating thing was I remember I was traveling and I would buy this, Forbes magazines and kind of read, you know, something to read. And I remember it was like Forbes 400, right? And the 400 guys worth a billion dollars.

[B]

And I'm like, golfers on that.

[A]

If you're like, there's, first of all, there's no golfers. And second of all, I'm reading the Force for Hunter. I'm like, okay, if you're the 400 best golfer, you're worth like $70,000.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're like, really good. You, you shoot under par all the time. You can qualify into the Shell Houston Open. You know, you can have status on the Nationwide. It's hard. It was an aha moment. It's like, okay, man, you can keep grinding this out and you'll probably be a journeyman. You know best. You'll have some status on tour, and you'll have some status. You go back and forth. Or you can go try to be the foreigner best at something and you'll do better.

[B]

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[C]

Oh, we got to go with Taylor. She's made the most money.

[A]

Taylor's the best golfer.

[B]

Do you agree she was incredible? Would I agree?

[A]

Everyone you hit, you have to agree.

[B]

But Art pretty much thought you are all great. Yes, he instilled a lot of confidence in y'.

[C]

All.

[A]

But she played on LPJ for five years and all right, we didn't play Taylor PJ as long as.

[C]

Yeah, she had great sponsors. She was still be out there if she wanted to be.

[B]

She's good at having kids. Now with our favorite brother in law.

[A]

She'S hall of Famer.

[C]

Hall of Famer. Gonna have her fifth. Fifth at 38.

[A]

Good for her.

[B]

Married to stud Brandon, who I'm playing tomorrow with and the member guest.

[C]

Yes, yes, sir.

[B]

Kick for Georgia, kick for the Seahawks. A lot of athletes.

[A]

A lot of athletes.

[B]

So for those listening, we're gonna talk about oil and gas, but we're gonna talk about athletics to start.

[A]

I like that.

[B]

Okay, tell me about growing up in Dallas. Like when did golf become a thing? As far back as you can remember.

[C]

We bounced around a lot. But it was when we were in for me, it was when we were in Houston.

[B]

Here in Houston, before Dallas.

[C]

Yep. And our dad was a member at Braeburn. And I kind of remember going out there as a seven year old but not really knowing what I was doing. But, yeah, I liked the Mentos they had by the shack at the driving range. And all three of us would be out there and our dad probably be hitting more balls than us. But that's like, my first memories.

[B]

Tyler.

[A]

Yeah, mine's exactly the same. At Braeburn, that's when we really. He started dropping us off a bunch, playing golf. And he goes on at the pool kind of like every. Probably a lot of kids, you know.

[B]

Growing up, did y' all like it or did he? It was like, you didn't have a choice or y', all, like, took to it at 7.

[A]

We didn't always, like, do. It wasn't like an everyday deal. Yeah, it was kind of like weekends because we played other sports. And I don't really remember it feeling forced. It was just like, hey, we're going out. I'm gonna play golf. My buds, y' all go hit on the range. There was like one or two other kids we played with. And then it was. It was a lot more laid back thing in elementary school.

[B]

But when did it become, like, a thing? Like, when it was like, all right, we're golfers or we're gonna start doing this.

[A]

Moving to Dallas, which was.

[B]

How old were y'?

[A]

All?

[C]

I was nine.

[A]

Yeah. So I was 11.

[B]

And we all good friends as kids.

[A]

We're probably better friends now.

[B]

All right, we'll talk. We have a story or two. But y' all were good. But we all. When y' all played golf as kids, were y' all competitors more than you were friends, or was it like the Trent and Tyler Show?

[C]

Even as kids, we were different ages. We would always be next to each other.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

On the golf course, because the kids are all, like, moving together like a school of fish on a golf course. And you're just trying to have fun. I mean, I'm a little brother. I want to beat my big brother. Like, I mean, you know, and I think that kind of changed in college. We were on the same team. For me, that changed in college was like, I never wanted Tyler to play bad. I just wanted to play better.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I never wanted. Tyler finished second unless I won. If it wasn't me, I wanted him to win.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so I think that kind of changed for me and maybe late high school, college, but I think it's more like maturity.

[A]

I totally agree.

[B]

And you always wanted to beat Trent because you were the big brother.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You want to be. You want to beat your brother, for sure. But the key point, and I think other people see it with us now, is like, we. We never, like, want the other one to do bad. That's not like a. It's never even a thought.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

So that's. That's how we've. I. I would say we've kind of always been like that.

[B]

Is that because of art or that's just because how it was?

[A]

It's probably mix.

[C]

I don't. I mean, our dad's an identical twin. His best friend was his brother.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Tyler and I are really close. They were probably closer.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I don't know how you. Like. I couldn't imagine how I could be any closer to Tyler already. But I think our dad raised us as if we were twins. I have twins. I try to raise my kids the way my dad raised us because we have such a good relationship.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Something's easier said than done, but I think our dad probably had a lot to do with it.

[A]

Yeah, he had a good thing always, like, if. If you got in fights or whatever, he'd let you fight it out. But it's like, okay, you guys are gonna hug at the end of it.

[C]

Never punched each other in the face.

[A]

So, like, he had a couple rules that are. That are good, that help you, like, never, like, make the fracture go too bad. I get like, hey, you're gonna fight, but get over it.

[B]

Okay. You just said y' all never fought. There's a story.

[C]

No, we fought. We never punched each other.

[B]

Okay, well, maybe not punch with fists, but we need to get to the bottom of this. There's a story about Art needing to get the wedding ring on his finger sawed off. Do you remember this?

[C]

Correct.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So what? Why would he have.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Why would he have to get this wedding ring sawed off?

[A]

Trent's gonna have a better memory because he was.

[B]

And Taylor has. Taylor has a good memory, too, so I. I can fill in it.

[A]

I just remember watching.

[B]

I just know the way she looked at it.

[C]

This is the exact story. We would go play golf on the weekends as a family of five.

[B]

Okay. By Mom, Dad.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Taylor, Trent, Tyler.

[C]

That's right. And at no point, as a 12 year old kid, you know, we're 11 to 13. None of us ever play good the same day you're all playing. Someone's playing good, someone's playing bad. My dad would make us keep the score. Her sister would start getting upset on, like, the fifth hole that she's not keeping her score. Cause she made an eight, and I'm. That happens to me, probably the seventh or eighth hole. I don't want to keep my score. We're all keeping score. Everyone wants to fight. My mom's wanting just to go in. Art's kind of getting a little short. We're on the 12th green, and I'm twirling my putter around, you know, like, whatever. And it catches Tyler's ankle. Like, he drops his knees. I don't think he cried. I'm sure he wanted to cry. Maybe he did. I would. I think we all want to cry. I mean, it smoked his ankle. And at this point, my dad has had it with me and probably everyone else on the golf course. And he looks at me and he does his deal with his lip when he gets pissed off. And I saw it, and I just started. He started walking over me with his putter, and I'm like, oh, shit. I start running towards the golf carts down this hill, and he's running after me, and he falls. And when he falls, he lands on his finger and dislocates his ring finger. And so we get in. He's wearing a white shirt. We get in towards the pro shop at Glen Eagles, where there's a thousand members. People are hitting it Saturday afternoon. And I. In my mind, it was like, 20 people, like, rough Sport Heart. And he just wants to kill me. Just trying to get me to the car so he can spank me. That's how I remember these stories.

[B]

And so it had to get cut off.

[A]

Yeah, it had to get cut off.

[B]

But you weren't chasing him down, trying to hit him in the head with your putter? No, that's been fabricated.

[A]

Our dad was trying to hit him in the head with his putter.

[B]

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, there it is.

[A]

Yeah, that's what he was trying to do.

[B]

All right, so you leave Houston and you get to Dallas, and you guys join Gleneagles.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

And there was a young group at Gleneagles that was pretty good golfers that y' all got plugged in with immediately. Were you already good at golf prior to getting to Gleneagles, or was Gleneagles when it started to kind of take shape?

[A]

I think we were probably, you know, nothing special. Could hit the ball, could, you know, go play nine holes by ourselves at the time, or maybe 18 when we got there, but weren't like world beaters by any stretch of the imagination.

[C]

We were in local stuff, right? NTPGAs and stuff.

[A]

Well, that's when we started Playing it. We were in the STBJ before.

[C]

Yeah, we were not one of those.

[A]

I personally remember being nine years old in Laredo shooting 65 on nine holes. I don't, I don't think I was a weather beater. I was kind of like, why am I playing golf anyways? So we did that, moved to Dallas. That's when we really started playing a lot more because we didn't.

[C]

We.

[A]

We stopped playing baseball because you had to do it was select in Dallas at that time. My dad's like, we're not doing that, so we're gonna play golf. And so we had a lot more time in the spring when you play a lot in the summer. And so we started playing ntpjs. And wildly enough, a couple of the best players in the DFW area were a guy named Andrew Dresser, Matt Rosenfeld and Jeff Bell. And Matt Rosenfeld at the time was already considered like the next Tiger Woods. I mean, he had won junior worlds and all this stuff. And they were Glenn Eagles. And so we played with them and so we started playing ntbjs and they kind of kicked our butts at the start. But we just did it every day and finally kind of caught up. We're able to compete with them over time.

[B]

Is that how you remember it?

[C]

Yeah, I think the big reason we were got as good as we did as quick as we did was because of Glenn Eagles. I think if we were at any different club in Dallas, I think Rosenfeld, Dresser, Bell, all of us would say the same thing. I mean, five of us all went on full rides to D1 schools.

[B]

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[A]

Yeah, for me, it was later, I would say, kind of. Kind of like seventh, eighth grade. I remember winning the Texas State Junior, whatever Junior tournament, which was like the biggest tournament in the state at the time. And in seventh or eighth grade, I won that. And I was like, damn. I mean, I can play, you know, shot under par scores. And I think at that moment I was like, okay, I can really do something here.

[C]

I was winning more local stuff, but Tyler was being a little older, so I was kind of older for the age group I was playing in, I guess, and I was winning. But I played well at a tournament. MCI Heritage, when I was 12 or 13. And the only reason I got. I was just there with Tyler because your third alternate. So I got up there. Well, I had the lead with a few holes to play against a bunch of 18 year olds, and I didn't win. I kind of choked, but that was like my first big, like, pointing at guys from other states. And I was like, oh, I guess I am good enough to do this.

[B]

All right, Matt Rosenfeld, if you're listening to this, did you or did you not crash a golf cart into the lake at Glen Eagles and try walking with your golf bags back like nothing ever happened?

[A]

Well, the best part of the story is it was only 80% his fault.

[B]

As he said, who's the other 20%?

[A]

It was me, because I was riding in the pasture seat eating my hot dog and said I should have been paying attention. And it's also my fault as well. While we drove in the lake, he.

[C]

Was really big on that.

[A]

It was really funny. And yes, we did try to just leave the cart and act like it would never happen, but the mistake we made. And to all kids listening, do not leave your scorecard with your names on it. If you leave a cart in the water.

[B]

It wasn't us.

[C]

There's a golf cart 16th hole. And the. There's two lakes, and there's a bin where you kind of have to turn so you don't drive it in the lake. Head down. Rosenfeld's looking something. They went straight into it.

[A]

Would you get suspended for a week or something? Probably. I can't remember the length of it, but, yeah, we got suspended. I remember they're like, y' all drove it in there. No, it wasn't us. Is this not your name? Matt Roosevelt.

[C]

And they stole the golf cart because they're 13. You weren't allowed.

[A]

We did steal it, so double whammy.

[B]

We're sorry, Gleneagles.

[A]

Yeah. To this day, I'm still sorry.

[B]

To this day, we're still sorry.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[B]

All right, so you. So middle school, you're good. You start winning tournaments, you're a few years back. You're getting better. What was the decision to go to img? Was that because y' all were good at golf, you wanted to kind of accelerate it, or was there a different reason to go to img?

[C]

I. I mean, you got to ask your dad, but I kind of remember Tyler and Taylor kind of being collateral damage. I was. I wasn't doing great at school. It's kind of getting in trouble. My dad was talking about sending me, like, Harlingen Military Academy or Nimmy and Roswell.

[B]

And I remember I got a Nimmy.

[C]

Threat at one point, so he talked about Culver. Then he saw how much it costs. You're going, Harlan. But luckily, I was playing good at golf, and I was really liking it. And so we had a. There's Buddy. Ty Try Tryon.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Who I think Ty's coach now, but he got his PGA Tour card. Ty got it when he's, like, 16 or 17.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Ty was a really good golfer playing ajgas against us, and he just started going img, and his dad, Bill, told our dad about it. So our dad flew down, looked at it, like, came back, and was like, you're going there next year in, like, two months.

[A]

We're moving.

[C]

You're going to Florida. And so that was kind of it.

[B]

Were you happy about that?

[A]

I was not happy about it.

[B]

You were not, because you were wrestling, weren't you?

[A]

I had no interest. I was like, I'm good. Life's good. Golf's fine. But, like, I'm not, like, obsessed. I was.

[B]

I'm good, but I'm not obsessed.

[A]

I was good playing other sports. I was good at other sports. And I was like, I don't really see why I Need to move down here. But I tell you what, the greatest thing he ever did, and he probably. I actually told him this the other day. I said the moving part. You know, golf, I got better there because I was more focused and could only do that. But he gave us a book called who Moved My Cheese? And it's all about change and accepting change, understanding change is going to happen. You can't just keep doing the same things and expect better results. And it's a phenomenal book. And, of course, we drove to Florida, which was like 18 hours. So at first, like, I'm not reading this effing book. And then I'm getting pretty bored because it's free iPads and all that. And I'm like, I can only play the sign game so many times or be pissed. So I started reading the book, and I'll be damned. I read the book and I kind of opened up my mind, and I was like, all right, maybe that book makes sense. I'll give it a try. So. And a lot of those things I read in the book have stuck with me since.

[B]

Who Moved the Cheese?

[A]

Who Moved the Cheese? Yeah, something like that.

[B]

Johnny, drop it in the link.

[A]

Yeah. Good book.

[B]

So you read the book on the way, and you get there, you're a little more excited. Did you land there and, like, you're already enrolled, Hit the golf course immediately, as soon as you got there, or.

[C]

Like, pretty much like the next day? I mean. Yeah.

[B]

And you were more excited to get there?

[C]

Well, my options were Harlingen Military, but all boys. But I was. I really liked lacrosse and I liked wrestling. We like. I like playing team sports. I liked all that stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But I. I thought, I want to be a professional golfer, like, 10 years old.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And Tyler wasn't there, so. Yeah, I was cool with it. And I wasn't doing well at school. I heard the school was easier at img. That sounded great.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So, yeah, I mean, I was. I was excited.

[B]

Who are some of the players you played with there? That would be. People would remember today.

[C]

Casey Wittenberg was.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Ty Tryon. Casey, there's a guy. Christo Grayling was a world beater. Christo's. I think he's doing really well. He's in Atlanta or near Jupiter, but.

[A]

He'S in Jupiter now.

[C]

He's in Jupiter.

[A]

Sean o' Hare was there.

[C]

Drew. David Gossett came back a lot. He was there before us. But, like, really? Jonathan Moore, he won a national championship with us at Oklahoma State.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

JC Deacon, he's now the Head coach in Florida. He was a good college player, but like Peter Uline is kind of the best. Probably that went there, that came out and then apparently. Yeah, I think gorilla went there for a couple years. But that was way before, way after us.

[B]

Do you still stay in touch with IMG or is kind of like as alumni or is it. It's not like a big deal once you move on.

[C]

I have not been there since the day pretty much like I graduated. Now Tyler's gone back.

[A]

Yeah. I've taken the kids to a couple camps over the summers, but there's no one to like really stay in touch with. Most of the. I think almost every instructor but one is rotated out. I did say hi to the guy that's down there now.

[B]

Is it.

[A]

But it's all new faces.

[B]

Is it better? Is it improved?

[A]

That's a good question. I mean I saw some of the stuff they're doing. The, the boys. My daughter's doing tennis boys during golf. It's hard to say if it's improved because it's just like a week long camp. But I think it's. It seems like it's really good. And you know, IMG has transformed now where, you know, basketball and football are. They're big into, you know, when we were there, the sports were, you know, tennis and golf and the national. The under 20 soccer team was there for the national team. So that was the main focus that shifted now to these. All these different sports. Yeah. But I think it's still. You would get a lot better, but it's not as important as it probably once was.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because the instruction was so much better than what you can probably get now.

[B]

And you basically go ahead.

[C]

Well, when we first got there, there was 50 of us on the go and. Or maybe 60 and there's 20 of us were really good.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And you know, I think now there's a couple hundred and so, you know, we had eight to group and there's kind of two better groups and then. But all the instructors were kind of. But you know, if. I don't know what number would probably be better, but you get 200 kids and maybe, I don't know, five or 10 of them are really good. And you got 190 of them that are, you know, I'm not saying they're bad, but maybe they're not gonna play D1 Golf.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

So it's just, it's probably not as an environment that we were in back.

[B]

Then and you like go to school for a few hours and then you play Golf all day, every day.

[C]

You'd go work out 6:30 to 7:30, three days a week. This is at 13 years old, 12 years old, you get to school. Or maybe it's 6 to 7. School started at 7:30, you're out at 11:30. Golf one to whenever you wanted to stop. Okay, so it's like college. It's all block scheduling.

[B]

But did you play other high schools? Like, how did high school golf work for y'? All?

[A]

So you don't have to. But we were asked and so we. The school you go to is like a local private school in the Bradenton area. It's called St. Stephen's or you could go to Bradenton High School or.

[C]

Yeah, there's two of them.

[A]

Yeah, at the time now they have their own high school at img. But at the time we went, you kind of had those two options. And so we went. You know, I'd say half the population or 60% of the population of those schools were regular kids, had no affiliation with img. And then the other were people who were at img. And so when golf season came around, you know, we really had no, we were not planning on playing for the high school team. They'd ask you, but we were playing all these national tournaments, doing that. Well, they had a great coach, a guy named Mike Lavalier. And he kind of reached out. I remember him reaching out to me. And he was a 10 year MLB baseball player, Spanky they call. His nickname was Spanky. And he played for the Pirates with Barry Bonds and all these guys. And just a really cool guy. And he's like, look, I'm not. I'm just going to ask you guys to play in the important tournaments like you do your deal, I get it. And let's just go have fun doing that. I was like, yeah, I'll do. We'll do that. So that's what we did. We would basically just play a couple regular seasons so we could qualify for the postseason and. And we would go play those. And so we did compete against the local high schools.

[C]

Yeah, we went state. We did that one year. We went state. I think you were a state champion wrestler in Texas and in the same year you're a state champion golfer in Florida.

[A]

Well, I was a state champion golfer in Texas and a state champion wrestler in Texas. And then I won the state championship in golf in Florida. I don't know what year, as a junior, senior or something like that. And we won the state title as a team as well.

[B]

All right, when did college offers start coming in, like, now, these days, kids are getting college offers in, like, sixth grade. When did they start? When did you know? Okay, we could probably play D1 golf. And does that. Does that happen freshman year, sophomore year, Was it different for both y'?

[C]

All?

[A]

It might have been earlier for him. I mean, I think mine was sophomore year. Letter started coming in from who? Like, a lot. I mean, my. I think my very first letter was actually from Alabama.

[B]

Really?

[A]

And they.

[B]

Were they good at the time?

[A]

They were not as good at the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He had watched me play some stuff, like eighth grade, ninth grade. Kind of like what he saw. And. But then the offers just start piling in. From sophomore, just junior year?

[C]

Yeah, I was freshman. Sophomore. But you get them, you know, like.

[B]

How do they work?

[C]

Like you. Well, everyone's different. Like. Like, Harvard sent me a letter, and I. Like, I remember talking to my heavy.

[B]

Steam GPA about to go to Nimmy last year.

[C]

But. But you get letters from all these guys, and everyone does it different. Like, you'll get a handwritten one from the coach, which a lot of them are, if you're. I don't know if they do that for everyone, how they decide that, but A and M, I remember that theirs was pretty exhausting. They'd send you something every Monday, and it'd be about one of their traditions. So, like the dog, then the fish camp. And, like, I know all this stuff about A and M just from, like, the recruiting. I'm like, I'm never going to this place. No.

[B]

No offense, Garrett.

[C]

Yeah, no offense, Garrett, but they're all different. And, you know, they're not allowed to talk to you, so they just send you these letters. And I'm. I'm jumping ahead here. But you know that you go to these AJGAs in the summer, and the coaches come out and watch, and you can kind of tell who wants you. Like, I think the Arkansas and then the Arizona. Coach watched me, like, every round I played for three years. But Mike Holder's bit, who's Oklahoma State legend, AD Tyler got to play for me. Recruited, maybe coach forever. And he won nine national championships. Like, completely changed college golf. He would come up and watch you play, and he can't talk to you, so you'd be warming up, and he'd grab your bag and he'd start going through all your clubs. Didn't care where he put him back in. And then he would stand so close to you, legs spread, arms crossed, you would think you'd hit him. Like, if you're hitting a. Starting with a Sandwich. And you pulled your driver out and he didn't move. You'd hit him in the nose with your driver. That's how close he'd stand. He wanted to see how you do. Feeling uncomfortable, but he was kind of. The coach is coming out. Watches.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So how did you make your. Because you had to make the first decision.

[A]

Yes. And so.

[B]

So what was it between.

[A]

So at that time, I was playing really well. I was. I was one of the top players in the country and getting recruited by a lot of programs and fortunately, which is great. And I guess IMG was paying off because I was able to go where I kind of wanted to go. And so I was in between. I'd settled in my mind with Texas, Georgia Tech, Wake Forest and Oklahoma State. And I liked the coaches. I'd kind of got to meet them. That's how I narrowed it down. They were also all top programs. And I kind of thought initially that I wanted to go to Texas or Georgia Tech because they were. Texas was a great school and, you know, grew up in Texas. Sound interesting? I didn't really know much about Oklahoma State except their golf history. And Georgia Tech was really good at the time.

[B]

Is that like Bryce Mulder era?

[A]

Yeah, he was there. They were really good. And so I was like, well, that sounds kind of cool. And so I went and went to all the trips and man, when I went to Oklahoma State, I was like, that's a no brainer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Casey Wittenberg and I really wanted to go to the same college. At the time, he was the number one player in the country. I was probably top 10 or something like that. And we had gone on recruiting trips together and. And man, we both went to the Oklahoma State one. Like, it's a no brainer because you get up there. You know, first of all, they, they were, you know, at that time they were able to come pick us up on a plane and take us out there. It was amazing. So that part as a kid, you're like, wow. And we also fly these every tournament. I'm like, that's cool. And then you go to. You go to Carson Creek, which is this, this golf course they have there. That's only. It was really built for the golf program. It's owned by the golf team. Not the university was unique. And you just see the wall of like one national championship after another. All American is on tour. And it's like, you know, at that moment in my life, I thought there was. I for sure knew I was going to be on the PJ Tour. There's no doubt. So this is where I'm going. And I love the small town feel. Stillwater. We grew up going to a ranch as kids, so, like, that felt really comfortable and it was just a no brainer and said, I'm going here. And so that was how my process went, and that's how I chose it.

[B]

Was it weird for you when he was out of the house and gone?

[C]

Well, I got bridged in eighth grade. I hadn't hit puberty yet.

[B]

Didn't your dad think, like, you wouldn't hit puberty?

[C]

Like, at this point my grades have gotten better because I went at St. Mark's and in Dallas, which is a hard school, but I just hadn't hit puberty yet. My dad's like, you're not going to high school without hitting puberty. I was like, you know, so I'm praying for puberty every night. Didn't come, but I get held back. So I was. Tyler ended up going from one to two years ahead of me. And then I bounced back with my sister in the same classes with me.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Who? My sister. All of us are great friends, and Taylor and I had a lot of fun together. But it. What was really tough was my senior year. I mean, I'm 19 years old in high school, and my buddies are all at ut. You know, you're hanging out with my buddies at TCU that I grew up with, and y' all going on spring break trips, and I'm, like, stuck in Braden in Florida, like retirement capital of the world, and Tyler's playing college golf and the guys, I. You know, it was just like, I was definitely jealous. But at the same time, my sister and I and mom and dad, we got. I mean, I got to spend a ton of time with my sister, which was awesome. And we played a lot of golf together, so it was great. I worked my butt off because I saw how good he was playing his freshman year. So I wasn't weird, but I was jealous.

[B]

What colleges were you in between?

[C]

Georgia, Texas, Oklahoma State. Considered Arizona for a while, but those probably the top three. My dad really didn't want me to go to UT because I had so many friends down there from Dallas. So I kind of agreed with them. So I ended up in Georgia and Oklahoma State.

[B]

What's your recollection of why you chose Oklahoma State?

[C]

So Georgia just beat y' all and then they were like, top. It was Oklahoma State and Georgia.

[A]

We were the best two, bro.

[B]

Who was on the Oklahoma State team and who was on the Georgia team at this era, it was really good.

[C]

Yeah. Georgia was like Kiz Kisner, Chris Kirk, Brennan, Todd, then Harmon. Just Brian Harmon and I are good friends in junior golf, so Brian was kind of pushing me to go up there as well, and he just committed. And at Oakland State, it was what Noren you Pablo Martin? Pablo Casey.

[A]

Well, Casey Wemberger just turned pro. I guess Jonathan Moore came the year before.

[C]

Yeah, Jaymore came the year before, which Jay Moore. We all went time g together, Tyler and I, Jaymore and Casey. And so if Tyler would have gone to lsu, I think all four of us would have gone to LSU or whatever Tyler went. We're probably all gonna end up going. So I called Tyler and, well, I think in my mind, I was kind of leaning towards Georgia. I had a really. I had a lot of fun in my recruiting trip. The coach, Coach Hex, great guy, Just like a fun guy to be around. Holders like a military dictator type thing. I was a little nervous we would clash. And so I wake up one morning, I'm reading Golf Week, which was this big magazine had come out every week, and they had a nice. They did a big deal in college, and it says, taylor Leon commits to Georgia. And I was like, what? My parents hadn't told me she committed like, a month before. They didn't want to tell me about it. I was like, well, eventually I'm going to find out. And so I'm like. So I bring it up. I'm like, why? You know? So they didn't want to tell me, but Taylor definitely needed to get away from me because I wouldn't let her have a boyfriend, a life. Like, I just.

[B]

Yeah, I.

[C]

You know, our little sister. But I'm still, like, kind of leaning towards Georgia a week after this. So I call, I'm like, I'm gonna sleep on it. So I talked. I called Tyler, and I just tell him, like, I think I'm gonna go to Georgia. And Tyler didn't say a word. My entire recruiting process, and the first time I ever said things after I go, I think I'm go to Georgia. And he's like, man, I've been real quiet about this. You're coming here, coming to Oakland State. We're going to win a national championship. We're going to get on the PGA Tour. You're going to be an All American. You're living with me. You're coming here. So I called the coach the next morning and told him I was going to Oklahoma State. That all sounds good to me.

[B]

All right, we're going to Talk about Oklahoma State for a bit. But before we do that, I think everybody that knows y' all knows it's unique. Three kids, three D1 golfers. I know it's a Katie and an Art thing, but Art was very into golf. How. What would you say was like, the overarching parenting strategy or thing that came to where you have a family that's kind of all top of their game in their respective deals?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting. He was really passionate about the game. He was. He wanted to go all the time to play golf himself. And then he saw talent in us, and he wanted to, you know, nourish that and try to blossom it, and that's what he did. And so he. He saw ability, and so he took us out there and he tried to get us the best, you know, coaches that he could and get us in the best competition. And he had a real passion for it, which was, you know, anyone knows our dad, he's a super positive guy and kind of thinks you can do anything.

[B]

The most positive.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And he. And he's always been like that, and. And it wasn't always with golf. It's with everything. He's just like, you know, dream big and go do it. And in his mind, he thought that's what. What could be greater than having my three kids be professional athletes? Like, that would be awesome. You know, I wish I had these opportunities growing up a poor kid in Memphis, and I love sports, and I didn't really have those opportunities. And so, you know, he did that with us, and I just think it was a. It was an everyday drive, and. And it wasn't like, look, he. He pushed us, but not like some of these horror stories you hear. He pushed us in a really healthy way of, like, here's how you are great at anything, and you put forth the effort. And so anyways, I think he was a huge factor, or he was a. He was a giant factor in it.

[C]

Yeah. Like, you know, I still don't sit on the couch on Saturday and Sunday mornings, and our dad just didn't let us sit around. And so if we weren't going to play golf, we'd have to go get a job and that one even a consideration. By the time we got to 13. I mean, we all wanted to play golf, but he just. He made. Like, as a little kid, I thought I could run through a wall if my dad told me good. Like, he just built it up, like, in wrestling. Like, I don't think I was that good of a Wrestler. But before I got on the mat, he'd be, like, pumping me up, like, I could go beat whoever just won the Olympic gold. And he kind of probably thought I could have. I mean, I don't know.

[B]

I'm pretty sure after an amateur event we recently played. And, like, he. Something like, basically, like, I think you could still be on tour.

[C]

Oh, he.

[B]

He. He, like. And.

[C]

And.

[B]

And I'm not saying you couldn't or you could, but he 100% says in a way of, like, you could be on tour.

[C]

He's texting me during the Masters. He's like, if you would have won that midam, you could win this damn tournament. Dad, hit it.

[A]

280.

[C]

There's no way.

[B]

I asked. I asked Taylor. She said nobody believed in their kids as much. He goes, he. As. As our dad did. It was. It was a confidence like, I can't describe. She said, he was always helping us, always giving us advice. Like, literally after every shot, every practice ball, do this, do that. And we would look at him and be like, dad, we got it. I got it. And he would look at us and say, taylor, Tyler, Trent, you ain't got shit. And then we would just put our head back down and keep hitting balls. But Art's a legend, and obviously, you're just remarkable, and you just don't hear that story very often. Three kids all being really, really good.

[C]

Yeah, he was pretty selfless. Gave up a lot for golf. And he's. I think it's a testament to having a positive attitude.

[B]

I mean, he's got a positive. And his brother. I didn't meet all his brothers. Larry.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Most positive guy on the fricking plane.

[C]

They all are. It's crazy.

[B]

Like, get mad about something here. Come hang out with me for a day. All right. So you're both at osu. We don't have to spend the whole time. There's. What was. Let's just talk about the 06 championship season, and then the season that got away. I don't know if you were still there yet. The year that y' all won stroke play by, like, 18 and then lost to Georgia in the. In the finals.

[C]

Well, he had one at Case Valley. They should have won, and they. They underperformed.

[B]

What happened there?

[A]

Yeah, we were the number one team by, like, a landslide in 05.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think we won every tournament.

[B]

That was your first year or second year?

[A]

Second year.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And we were so much better than everyone, and I think we maybe lost three times during the regular season. Just kind of won Everything and you know, for whatever reason, just we all played like crap at the nationals and I don't even blame it up to nerves or whatever. Like it just, you just played bad at the wrong time. And so that was a pretty big letdown. And so it was cool to go back in 06 and play. We were playing really well once again and it was awesome to do it. I was a junior, Trent was a freshman. And it was really cool to do with your brother and go win. And it was an incredible feeling. I mean, one story I've got to share, you know, after knowing we should have won my sophomore year, like really, like I've never felt nerves like that ever again. The final morning, waking up, you know, did we have the lead or a couple back? I can't remember.

[C]

It was us wake in Florida. But we're all like jammed in there anyways.

[A]

We were jammed in there and it was cool because another guy we played with on the team, Jonathan wore one individually, Pablo Martin got there. Well, Pablo Martin was a freak of all freaks. He was better than anyone in the country. He had already won a European tournament at 19.

[C]

Didn't finish that top five all year.

[A]

Yeah, just unreal. And it was cool to like rehash notes with him on the way home. All of us had the same thing. None of us could sleep going to the before the final round. And it was like your heart was beating out your chest when you woke up that morning. I still have never felt that in a golf tournament and. And played in really big stuff later in life. And they. We kind of hash as them later on. Like they still hadn't either. It was really cool that it meant that much to all of us. And we wound up in Bend, Oregon and it was, it was awesome.

[B]

And who'd you beat in the finals? Oh, was it match play at the.

[A]

Time it was stroke.

[B]

It was still stroke.

[C]

But the Florida team and you were.

[B]

A couple back going into the final day.

[A]

Sounds terrible. I don't even remember.

[B]

Yeah, okay. But it was close enough. You weren't like running away with it.

[C]

Yeah, it was close. I remember with nine holes we might have had like a one shot lead or something. And there's par five and maybe it's the 12th or 13th hole, but at the time you. I would have to like driver three wood like wedge or if I had driver four iron. I have a seven iron in, but there's water left ob right. And I mean all of us talked about that whole after. I think we played that whole one under as A team. And I bet no one else was even close to par. But on Florida was. Billy Herschel was on that team and Matt every. Both four time first team All Americans, BJ Tour winners. Yeah, they had some other studs, I can't remember. But then Wake Forest had Webb, Simpson and a couple other guys that were all Americans. But it was. We beat some good teams. It was fun.

[B]

And when you got. Did you play the. You obviously were top five as a freshman.

[C]

Yeah, I. I played every tournament in college. I missed one. I went down to Austin for a weekend and came back Monday and did not play very well. And I paid the price.

[B]

And wait real quick, in 05, did you lose in like a nail biter. Did you guys just not even come close?

[A]

No, we finished like sixth place. It was like crazy how bad we did.

[B]

And who Was on the 06 team?

[A]

06 was Trent and I. Jonathan Moore, Pablo Martini and Zach Robinson.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Who's actually a Fort Worth native as well, lives in Oklahoma City now.

[B]

Okay. And did you ever sniff another national championship before you left? Because you graduated 07. You graduated 09. Tell us about the Georgia heartbreak.

[C]

Well, the year before Georgia, my junior year, we came in third, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, we came in third. And I mean we had the lead and UCLA end up coming in. Ricky and I made some big scores coming in on the second round. We had a pretty big lead and I think I finished like triple double. Ricky finished maybe double double. And anyways, we kind of gave that one away. Got away from us. But yeah. So my senior year, Ricky Fowler, Kevin Tway, Morgan Hoffman, Peter Uline and me. And I think I played three. Guy Morgan was a stud. Morgan probably would have gotten player of the year if Ricky didn't. So the we win stroke plate. This is the first year they moved it to match play. The reason they moved to match play is Mike Holder. The Oklahoma State AD wanted it to be match play and been pushing it forever. So it was on. It's kind of our own fault, but we played Georgia first match. Hudson Swofford signed for One High, so we shouldn't even played him. But we ended up getting there. The eighth team, we were the first team. And on the Georgia team, Brian Harmon, Russell, Henley Harris English, Hudson Swofford and a Walker cupper named Adam Mitchell. So Adam and I are the only two that didn't play on PJ Tour. It's a pretty stacked. I get. I thought I was playing some pretty good golf. I lose four and three to Russell Henley. He just Wore me out. I thought. I thought it could keep up them by about the sixth, seventh hole. Looked at my dad, I don't know if I got enough juice, this guy. But I think Harmon, he beat Ricky like maybe the last three holes to win one up. He really sacked up and we lost, I think A and M1. We beat a and M that year at their home course by like 40 something shots. And the beat him in the big 12 by like 50 something shots and they end up winning the tournament.

[B]

And that was your last college golf tournament.

[C]

I went and played the Palmer cup the next week. And then I was just in such a hurry, you know, God forbid I wait around, try to make a Walker cup team. I was in such a hurry to play the Hooters Tour, I turned pro.

[A]

Really? Yeah.

[B]

And were you on the Hooters Tour yet?

[A]

I was, yeah, I was playing.

[B]

It was Hooters. Hooters turned into what, Korn, Ferry or there's so Hooters Nationwide.

[A]

Yeah, the way pro golf works, there's basically many tours like the Hooters Tour, Adams Tour, there's a bunch of them, Gateway Tour. And. And so that's kind of like you put up your own cash pot in a way with a little sponsor dollars there to juice the pot. And then there's, you know, Nationwide corn. I guess it's called a corn ferry now. We just called the Nationwide was, you know, the. The tour owned by the pga, right below the PGA Tour in a way to graduate onto the PGA Tour. And so, yeah, that's kind of. And then there's the pga and that's kind of what it looks like on the pro landscape. And so my career, I was a mix of the Hooters Tour and Korn Ferry, and I played for four years as pro.

[B]

Didn't you Monday into the Houston PGA event.

[A]

I did.

[B]

That was one of your last events, right?

[A]

Yeah, it was actually the. It was a really cool thing. It was my greatest accomplishment, I guess you could say, outside winning, you know, lower level pro tournaments or having status on the corn ferry. I Mondayed into the Shell Houston Open. It's also one of the reasons why I quit, which is you're like, I just, you know, it was, I guess an interesting way to say it is you see how. How good they are day to day. Phil Mickelson was close to my locker, and I got to chat up with him a little bit and see him play. Played in a group in front of.

[C]

Me, and.

[A]

I just. It was fascinating to me. I was just like, man, there's some really good players and, you know, names you kind of forget over time. And I'm in these Monday qualifiers and like, damn, this guy Chris Riley was in the Writer cup six years before. How's he at a Monday qualifier with me?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I just saw how, how good you have to be all the time. And the fascinating thing was, I remember I was traveling and I would buy this, Forbes magazines and kind of read, you know, something to read. And I remember it was like, Forbes 400, right? And the 400th guy is worth a billion dollars.

[B]

There's like, golfers on that.

[A]

If you're there. First of all, there's no golfers. And second of all, I'm reading the Forbes 400. I'm like, okay, if you're the 400th best golfer, you're worth like $70,000.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're like, really good. You shoot under par all the time. You can qualify into the Shell Houston Open. You know, you can have status on the Nationwide. It's hard. And I was like, it was an aha moment. It's like, okay, man, you can keep grinding this out and you'll probably be a journeyman, you know best. You'll have some status on Tour, and you'll have some status. You go back and forth, or you can go try to be the foreigner best at something and you'll do better.

[B]

Was it like a sad end? Like, was it sad to come to the decision that like, a golf career is coming to an end, or was it actually pretty, like, logical? Like, this is the obvious thing I should.

[A]

No, it's like light bulb moments people have in their lives. Right. It was not sad. I, I, you know, I never had to look back one time and be like, man, I wish I tried harder. You know, that's. I think a lot of the sadness comes from a lot of that. Yeah, it's like, I wish I'd done this or that. It's like, no, I mean, I really, I poured everything into it. I didn't have a plan B. I thought this was it. And I worked hard at every day and was thorough about it, and it felt great. I was like, damn, you gave it your best. This is the reality. And let's go try to be great at something else.

[B]

So you, so you finished that tournament. Did you make the decision like that next week, that, like, how many more tournaments did you play?

[A]

That next Monday I got into Mexico City, which was pga? No, it was a Corn Ferry or. Yeah, Corn Ferry event. And because I had status on the Corn Ferry event experience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're like, hey, you're in Mexico City next week. And I was like, damn, I don't want to go. That was my first thought when I got the calls. Like, it was the first time I said, I don't want to go. Yeah, because of all these things colliding. And I was like, you need to do something else. If that's your feeling at this stage, you need to do something else.

[C]

My similar. I mean, you. You find out pretty quick how many good golfers there are when you get out of college. Like, being the best in college. I mean, it's not easy, but it's a lot easier than being the best golfer from 18 years old to 50 years old in the entire world. Yeah, but you don't realize that until you get thrown out there. I got my ass kicked pretty good on the Hooters Tour with guys that playing, like, D3 colleges and stuff. I'm like, I kind of was going through some chip yips, and I was just. I remember the chips, but I got through. Got to final stage in European tour school a couple times, Played on the Challenge Tour. I never played. Great at some top tens, but got to go to Kenya, India, all over Europe, Djibouti, Digibooti. So played with a lot of good players. But it was like, when Tyler quit, I was like. I was shocked. And then at the same time, though, I'm traveling around. Like, I mean, I call my dad. We played in Essex, and I think Tommy Fleetwood shot 63, and I played good, and I shot 69, and I. That's kind of one of the best rounds I had in a while. It was really tough conditions. And then, like, Brendan grace shot, like, 65, and I'm like, 16th, 20th place or something, tied with another 20 guys at 69. And I call her dad. I'm like, God. He's like, how'd you play? I was like, well, I played really good. I was like, but, you know, the cut's gonna be like, I'm gonna have to shoot 200 tomorrow. I'm gonna miss the cut. And I just was like, I could not have shot 63 or 65. I mean, maybe I could have shot 68. But at that moment, I was kind of. He was six months removed, maybe a year. And I just kind of was like, I. And, you know, honestly, you and I were rooming together. Yeah, I remember you were making money in real estate. I'm losing money in golf every week, and it sucked. I didn't feel good about myself. Missed four cuts in a row and, you know, 30 grand. And so seeing you doing well and our buddy Streeter was doing really well, and it NTR Metals, they're buying me dinner. I'm like, God, I need to get a job. So anyways, that's. I was more like just looking around. I'm like, what the hell am I doing? And so I, I quit the next day, and I don't really look back at anything, and I still don't. And I didn't have any regrets about it. Yeah, it was a great time, my life, a lot of fun. Love all the guys I met out there and try to stay in touch with them.

[B]

And now we're resurrecting what's going to be a storied amateur career. And we'll talk about that in episode 689. All right, so I thought that would be cool to kind of just set the stage. I think golf's obviously a big part of your life, so you get out. We don't have to go through step by step now. Let's just kind of talk about oil and gas, what you've been in. Anybody listening to this? You can go Back to episode 89 if you want to hear early on in the story. I kind of just want to pick up with kind of what's going on. It's been honestly like four and a half years since we recorded the first one. And I'll say a little bit of a joke, but oil's hovering around 65 right now. Trump, we love him, but he's brought that price down. Maybe we're. Maybe we're Kamala. Maybe we're Kamala, guys. But I just wanted to start with kind of how do you. How are you thinking about the oil and gas industry, like today specific. You can take that however you want. But what's going on today? You're obviously a lot more educated on it than you even you were four and a half years ago. What's. What's good to know?

[A]

Well, I mean, I think. Yeah, I mean, I guess really got. We started our business, this business, in 2014. Right. So it's been 11 years. Had different administrations, all different types of pricing, and, you know, different catastrophes happen in the market and sort of thing. And so, you know, looking at it now, yeah, sure do. I wish oil was higher in 65 and operators are dropping rigs right now. You bet it's better when things are hot. But the great thing, the positive thing, with Trump in for an oil and gas guy, you know, a Lot of people think it's always pricing, but the, you know, commodity prices are a big part, but it changes all the time. Anyways, the nice thing with him involved is, hey, we're not trying to end the business in five years. So when the Biden administration was in, you know, investors, you know, the capital behind public stock markets and private equity groups and all that, you know, they were starting to hang at 010 years out on the curves for oil and gas investments. So if they're looking at investment, they, you basically need a double, you know, in four years because they're putting a zero in 10 years. And it just really, it made so many people leave the industry as investors, which is tough. Right. Because ours is a capital intensive industry that needs new capital all the time. And so with even lower prices. The great thing is investors are coming back to our space and realize it's around for a lot longer than 10 years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that's a truth everyone is seeing. I mean, I'd love to give a shout out to Kelsey Warren and his, his commercially during the Super Bowl. I mean, I thought it was fantastic to really paint that picture. And he did a phenomenal job that I think a lot of the world doesn't know. And the US does it better than anyone on the clean part of oil and gas. I mean, the rules and regulations in place, it couldn't be done any better. And so, yeah, it's a great time to be in our industry. There's still a lot of tailwinds behind us.

[B]

Awesome. You got anything?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, when we started, it was like shale revolution cowboys. Everyone loved the oil and gas guys. We're saving America to you get a couple Democrats in office back to back, and all of a sudden we're villains and they want us to pump more to lower prices. But then they want us to end our business. And it was just a confusing message.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But they made everyone not like us. And then now, like Kelsey Warren's out on the super bowl is great Landman. I've had more people.

[B]

Such a great show.

[C]

Great or not, it's good pub for us.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I have friends from all over the country, like Oregon, and we have different beliefs and whatever, but they're texting me, loving the show and just at least getting a snippet if you believe it or not, or whatever. Like someone talking good about our industry. Like that hadn't happened in a long time.

[B]

I think it's the. I mean, and Aubrey did it with Chesapeake. There used to be billboards all Over. You know, that when he was fracking in the Barnett, I think the biggest whiff that the oil and gas hadn't figured out, and maybe they are now through the media, is like just having good marketing for the industry. It just hasn't really existed for a while. What about the Permian specifically? As a bit of an outsider that knows a little bit, I would read, oh, they're running out of inventory. All the tier one's gone. There's people that say it's 10 to 12 years out and it's done. Is that there's truth to that?

[A]

A little bit quick. Say inventory. We were actually talking about this earlier. Tier 1 inventory is probably shorter, dated, you know, let's call it five to seven years. But that's tier one. That doesn't mean there's not more oil, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so there's Tier two and there's tier three, which maybe it needs a little bit higher prices to work, but it's still, there's still the resource there. And then beyond that, you know, like our industry has always done is it's, it's always found a way to kind of find new hydrocarbons maybe in large oil fields or, you know, there's new play that rises. And so there's still plenty to be done in our industry. And I think it'll take come from technology enhancements as much as anything.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, inventory, there's going to be less inventory tomorrows today. You know, find new resource or not. I mean, it's pleading assets. So every time you draw a well, there's less inventory. Yeah, but Tier one is getting drilled out at very quick paces and that's in every basin. You know, like people were all hot on Oklahoma the last six months, but now we're sitting here at $60 oil. A lot of Oklahoma probably doesn't work.

[B]

And how do you define tier 1? Cheap cost to produce the most oil possible.

[A]

Probably highest margin barrel.

[B]

Best. Yeah, yeah, Highest margin barrel.

[C]

So you make money at 30 bucks. $35. That's tier one inventory.

[B]

Okay, so a new play that. Or maybe it's not new. It's new to. I haven't heard it as much, but they found the Barnett in the Permian.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Okay, so has that always been known? Like, it's almost like we just figured this thing out. There's the Barnett Shale. It's the new thing, but it's like, well, with geology, haven't we known that? That's the case for a long, long time. Like, how do these things kind of Come up by surprise that you could have probably seen on a map for a long time.

[C]

Well, they need more inventory. So now they're going to test it. Right.

[B]

So they knew about it but they're just not testing it.

[C]

Yeah. And with new frac designs, it's working. It's getting easier to drill. They understand it. It's not easy to drill compared to like going to drill the spray barrier shallower zone you don't get. You're not going to lose many wells drawing a horizontal.

[B]

But as a mineral or non op buyer, you can't underwrite the Barnett as being part of the pay stack until somebody's proven that it's part of the pay stack.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

So then it just becomes like a bonus.

[C]

Two years ago we were not, not even thinking about engineering it, not putting our debt. Now we can add value to it and we can pay those mineral owners more.

[B]

And. You don't have to answer this. I'm sure. I don't know if it's, it's probably not a secret. Like is there another one of those in the Permian that's like in two years this bench will now be being underwritten and is another hidden bench out there that's known but not being talked about.

[A]

You know, I don't know if we know what that hidden bench is, but there's other formations, you know, like the Woodford as well is being brought up.

[B]

With the Barnett right now in the Permian.

[A]

In the Permian. That's another deeper zone coming out of.

[B]

That's typically talked about in Oklahoma. So now it's being talked about in the Permian.

[A]

Correct, in the Permian as well.

[C]

There's shallower zones. I mean there's resource right there, like.

[B]

But do you underwrite those resources?

[C]

No.

[B]

So it's all just bonus if you own something that, that ends up being a thing.

[C]

That's right, yeah. I mean we'll underwrite whatever we can underwrite because it's in the Permian, it's as competitive as it gets. And so, but the great thing about being in the Permian is, you know, like there's resource at 6,000ft down to 15,000ft. Now maybe it doesn't work today, but will it work in 30 years? And if oil's at 100 bucks, it works.

[B]

Okay, so this is a perfect segue into kind of risk reward if, if, if we went back not even four and a half years ago, but when y' all first started. Fair to say that when y' all first started buying an Eddie and Lee, people were, like, confused at some of the stuff that y' all might be buying, or how could they be buying this stuff?

[A]

For sure.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We've historically been called, you know, we pay too much.

[B]

All right. Yeah, you said it, not me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then it prove. And then time goes by, and you ended up making 10x or 15x on that stuff. Right. Has the same philosophy of risk reward just continued. Like, is it the same kind of thought process that you took back then when you were, quote, unquote, overpaying? Like, how do you continue to look at things? Or have people caught up to you more in the way y' all have thought about it from 10 years ago when you were a little more obscure? Like you. You would be considered more outliers back then.

[A]

I think so. I mean, I think people have. I mean, there's more players, the Rock's more delineated. And so we're all kind of looking at the same thing. Earlier on, you know, like, when we first were buying in 14, people were like, there's one zone in the Delaware Basin. There's one zone. You can't pay for more than one zone. We're like, well, there's more than one zone. Sure, maybe it hasn't been drilled widely enough to believe there's more than one zone, but we were like, well, we're. We're happy to pay for four. You know, one thing we've always done different, and maybe it's not always the right answer is we don't get that tied up on IRR and we're more NYC guys. And then you got a risk reward. What is really the mic. The inventory you're looking at? Right. Is it very delineated and you. You know it completely, so. Or is it like some of these extra benches we're talking about today. Right. Earlier on when they're not even really proven. And so I think it, you know, let's. You know, per examples, like, let's just say you're looking at something, and it's in this Tier 1 area with a lot of zones. Maybe say, okay, I'll buy it down to 13% IRR, because I'm actually underwriting 5, but I see 7 possibly. But I'm willing to lean in because there's a decent chance of an option value here. Whereas if maybe I go to the edge and I'm not, I don't really see a great option value. So I'm not going to buy it down to 13. I'll buy it at an 18. Right. That's how we've kind of always viewed it. And we talked about this the other day. I think, I think golf was a, you know, and probably everyone can talk about this in sports they played or jobs they had. Like, golf was a great example of risk reward. Should I go for this par 5 with the 3 iron in my hand over water island green, or should I lay up, you know, or, you know, there's no trouble and I got a six iron. Yeah, I should go for it, you know, and it's weird. I see a lot of similarities to the risk reward decisions you had to make in golf in business.

[B]

That's why I'm not great at all on gas. I'm always laying up short, short of.

[A]

The water with seven iron.

[B]

Going back real quick to just industry and talking about those benches like Trump's. Come in hot. Like, drill baby drill. Obviously pricing's going down. So you're hearing rigs are getting laid down right now. Is this actually going to be a drill baby drill four years, or has there been anything like government wise where they're going to subsidize oil and gas producers to keep producing? Or is that more just narrative? Drill baby drill. But it's not actually going to happen.

[C]

I mean, like fed lands, you know, it got really hard at the Biden administration and majority of what we do in New Mexico is fed lands buying overrides. We're not like doing the permitting. But it's near impossible to go start like a really small company and go drill in New Mexico without having a handful of regulatory people.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so when you look at your gna and what you got to do, it's just, it wants people to be in Texas. Now there's a ton of resource in New Mexico, but that's not the case in other fed lands where maybe there's just one zone. Like you can't make sense of having all these people on your team to go drill something. And maybe the Powder river, where you can only drill for three months because of a prairie chicken and it takes you two years to get a permit and the winner's like always there. So that's probably why the Powder river happened. No, that's true.

[B]

Wait, explain what that is for anybody listening to this.

[C]

Yeah. And I'm not an operator. I know you're not. So somebody else could explain it a lot better. But there's the prairie chickens and they mate. But they will not mate if there's a drilling rig noise or there's too much noise.

[B]

And a prairie chicken is literally Just a certain bird.

[C]

It is a beautiful bird. You can hunt them like if you don't know what it is, Google it. It's a really good looking bird.

[B]

And we can't drill oil and gas because we don't want to kill during their breeding the prairie birds.

[C]

And so a lot of times you can drill up there is when the weather's really poor.

[A]

We've never seen a prairie chicken. I don't know who has talons said wedding crashers.

[B]

You throw a famous, you throw a pretty famous Halloween and I might be a prairie chicken this year that Halloween party and bring a prairie chick.

[C]

But I think regulatory stuff getting laid out. The problem is it doesn't matter what Trump says. If oil's at 60 bucks, you can't, you can't make money. People aren't going to put money, they're not going to invest in it.

[B]

And right now the trend line is rigged down.

[A]

That's. Yeah, that's if you kind of read all these recent quarterly reports, everyone's dropping a rig or half a rig or something.

[B]

So it's not like they're all going down. It's just not as much.

[A]

It's not as much.

[B]

And that also been a trend line though just in the fact that most of these EMP companies have to produce cash flow and operate a profitable business now. Yeah, but that's been going on for a while.

[A]

It's been going on for a while. I mean there was no such thing. Ever talked about free cash flow yield five years ago or even maybe I can't remember when the cutoff was three to five years ago. That wasn't even a conversation. It was reserves and growing reserves. And so that created. Which was an unhealthy way to go forever, especially in shale. It brought on too much debt and it was the wrong motivation. Right. And so yeah, now where it is is hey let's, let's look at this like an operating business. We got to create free free cash flow. We got a depreciating asset and we got to, you know, we got to run like a real business. And that's been healthy for our industry. But with that, you know, we still are depreciating asset and you've got to continue to drill or you're going to run out of product. Right. And that then will put prices higher. One thing I think it's interesting to bring up that people don't, you know someone from Oregon, right. They don't really. There's no effect to layoffs in oil and gas. It's a huge industry with a lot of jobs. And so, like, they're not laying down rigs because they're pissed. They're not making enough money. No, they're not making enough money to where they don't have to take on. They got to start taking on debt to operate because the margins are too tight. Right. Market will, you know, the public market will slam you for doing stuff like that. So they have to drop rigs to be prudent with the balance sheet. But the problem here is that no one talks about, like, why does 60 bucks not work? Well, the cost of everything has gone up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And one of the key ones, forget the tariffs and all that making, you know, I go up and everything, people. I mean, look what inflation has been like in the US for the last several years. You know, people cost more. So what do you say? Well, forget them. We should just fire them so I can have a cheap price of the pump. That's not right to say. Yeah, but you know, most of America doesn't have oil and gas production, so they don't think that's, they don't even quantify that when they complain.

[B]

Okay, is, and again, I know y' all aren't AI tech guys, but, like, is AI going to play a part on the drilling rig and, and make it cheaper to where you're not going to actually need as many people. Like, when I watch a well getting drilled, like, you need roughnecks doing all this kind of stuff. Is there any part of the process that's going to get cheaper that you've even heard about?

[C]

I'm sure, like, efficiency is gained in AI you know, maybe that'll. But like, I don't, but nothing. I don't know enough.

[B]

You're not sitting here right now seeing some major thing.

[C]

We're not on the right side of the business.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, you could ask John or Cody if they got a robot out there breaking pipe or something.

[B]

I mean, I, I, you just own the minute. You don't care. And as a mineral owner, you don't care how much the well costs.

[C]

Well, we do. We do.

[B]

As a mineral owner, you don't.

[C]

Yes, we do. Okay, we're buying them now. If I inherit them, never had to pay for them. Sure, it's like lucky sperm club, but we're paying people for them. If it costs more to drill that.

[B]

Well, then they won't, they're going to.

[C]

Drill less of them.

[B]

Got it. I got you. So on non op. It does impact you a lot.

[C]

And we, we do non up as well and take leasehold and all that. And so but we, we try to be in the best rock that we can buy in to where those guys can drill through pretty much almost any cycle.

[B]

Yeah. Has the, as the industry changed at all from a standpoint of like, you're tighter with the operators so you, you have better line of sight of like this is going to get drilled, the.

[C]

Best rock gets drilled.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so we've never been. Some guys in our industry try to partner with operators to get drilling drill schedule and. But then you're, you're giving them, you know, you're having, I mean, you're giving up a lot of the candy and there's nothing, there's only so much great rock. And so what we try to do is just buying the best rock and that stuff's gotten drilled and it's, it's always exceeded our timing. If we thought it was going to drill in seven, maybe you got drilled in three.

[B]

Okay, y', all, I, we've talked about this in the past, y', all, from my perspective, get a lot done with a relatively lean team. How big is the total team?

[A]

13.

[B]

Not including third party landmen, correct?

[A]

Yeah, but third.

[B]

And how many if you had landmen out in the field?

[A]

We don't have a ton. And they're really not sourcing deals. You know, they're doing more of like the curative work once we're buying something or research expense, trying to find new ownership.

[B]

And y' all have bought how many billions of dollars worth of deals?

[A]

At this point? We think it's about, you know, we gotta double check, but around 1.2 billion.

[B]

Okay. Was this, was the, was it, was it by design that you only had 13 people? Or looking back, you're like, this is just kind of how we did it. You typically hear teams doing this much volume. They seem to be much larger.

[A]

Well, I mean, I think a lot of it is, you know, we work with other, you know, Pegasus has been a longtime partner of ours, but we still cover a decent amount of our gna.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so we're just sensitive to GNA burn. You know, it matters to our pocket. And so we try. We ourselves are very involved on a daily basis and we ask a lot of ourselves and so we do the same with other people. And you know, I, and just. You talk to people and hear stories, read books and you live it. And I, I'm a big fan of a small team and guys trying to do a lot with a little. I just think the conversations are easier you're more nimble. You can. You can get a lot done. Now, obviously, you reach points where you got to bring more people on, but we've always tried to just really fill the cup with everything you can do before you kind of bring someone else on.

[B]

On.

[C]

It's a really big decision for us to bring someone on.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, how does that even pro. Like, how does that even conversation begin to start? You're like, we're just overloaded, or we. Like, how do you even think about it?

[C]

Yeah. So for a long time, we leaned on Pegasus for a lot of the technical work. Yeah. We still do in the Permian. They are great geologists, great engineers.

[B]

Shout out to Pegasus. George Young, George Rogers, incredible partners. G3.

[C]

It's been a great partnership. And so we still, like, we were in there yesterday talking about geology and new areas we might want to buy in. And so what we. We start. What we've done for a while is we have our own engineer. We got a geologist we do a bunch of contract work with, and we're trying to do a lot of that on the front end. So when people want answers on price, you know, send us a deal, or we're talking to mineral owner, we can give them an answer, Tyler And I, in 20 minutes, or we can have our engineer run it, and in an hour we can do it. And we backstop a lot of deals, but we wouldn't do that if we didn't have the tech like the technical guys in our office. So eight years ago, we were buying stuff. The margins were so high. Now the margins are so thin. If we make a bad mistake, I mean, we could be a difference making a couple million bucks or losing a couple.

[B]

And you don't retrade.

[C]

We never retreat. We've never retraded on a deal, and we won't.

[B]

So you'll just eat it.

[C]

We.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah, we ate a couple.

[B]

Have you. Have you eaten some crow before?

[C]

We have nothing like buying a deal.

[B]

It doesn't exist.

[C]

$20 during COVID after you told them, what is it, 65 or.

[B]

The title's not there. So if you wanted to hire somebody, though, the conversation would start by, we're just too overloaded, or we're hiring someone to go do this specific thing that we can't do anymore, and we want.

[C]

To be able to do it right now, our engineers getting like, he just. There's not enough time in a day from. He needs someone to help him. He needs a tech.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So we've been talking about it. He's doing as good as he can do, and he's doing a great job, and he just needs some help. And it's slowing down our deal flow. So we need to hire this person. So we're doing it, but we've been waiting. We've been talking about it for two months, but, like, with our buyers. And Tyler can speak to it as well, but we have really good buyers, and they're bought in. They like being there. We're there for them. They call us at midnight and need something, and I'm up, I'm gonna respond. If not, I'm gonna respond as soon as I wake up. And so those guys do a lot, and they're really good. Now, if I bring on another four of them, it's not gonna double the amount of deals. Maybe we get an extra 15% of deals, and that's not worth having another four people in the office.

[B]

Are there things that you do even today, that the typical business book would say, y' all should have, like, I'm talking about you two. You guys should have delegated this by this point. Like, I can't believe you're still doing this thing.

[A]

For sure, there's definitely people. I mean, we still price a lot of units individually across the base and ourselves for hours a day. And people are like, why would you do that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know?

[B]

And what's your answer?

[A]

Well, it's to. To trend. It's really important. I mean, then that way we're really in tune with the market and the pricing, and so then we have quicker feedback. And instead of like, well, do I trust the guy I delegated it to? Is it correct? And we've tried delegating more of that, but it's also something we need to be involved in in our mind. You know, right or wrong, that's something that helps us. And so I think it also helps us see opportunity in the market quicker, you know, instead of waiting on responses from other people and then seeing it maybe two months too late. So I think that's something, you know, a perfect example of where, like, the business books tell you to delegate, but maybe you need to be in the weeds.

[B]

You can answer this. You don't have to. One of the. I would say the Tilden specialties is just like, big families, big deals. Is that just the simple fact of being able to build great relationships over long periods of time? Most people that try and go to Eddie and Lee in that New Mexico area that want to work on the big stuff, the Leon brothers kind of already have their foot in the door. They've kind of been there was that just happened by happen chance. And it's just like we're nice and we went and met all these people and we're really nice to them. Or maybe it's not just about that. Is there a thought behind how to get bigger families to do bigger things? Because we're heading into a world where like $80 trillion worth of farmland and ranches and minerals is going to transfer in the next 15 years. Y' all seem to have figured this out in dealing with large families. Maybe it's like what you did or.

[C]

I mean, we've just, I mean, you know, we've been buying minerals in New Mexico since 2015. And in the time in the game. And so it's time. Yeah, like I, you know, if I came in two years ago, I, I don't. So I think a lot of it's relationship based. It's trust. I'm not, I don't like blow smoke up their ass. I'm like, it's a great asset. We're buying it to make money. But I can.

[B]

We're not buying this to lose now.

[C]

Maybe we will, but the purpose here is so we can make money. But like I tell our guys and I, I mean, you want to build your network as big, big as it can be. And so like I tell our buyers, I'm like, you know, when you call these people, you don't need to just call them and make the offer and then try to like, just try to talk to him. And there's nothing wrong with having a buddy in Roswell, New Mexico that might never sell you his minerals. You know, maybe his cousin or aunt or friend or somebody. And he recommends in eight years or whatever, but just build that network and don't be so consumed about what happens today and just, just watch and see what happens.

[A]

Yeah, I'll give a shout out to our dad. I mean, he really, he was in real estate his whole life. Tenant rep for the most part. So relationships were big. And he always told us two things. He's like, look, big deals take the same amount of time as little deals, so work on big deals. And relationships matter. And you've got to know as many people and be as good as many people and good things come around. And he really hammered both us home for years. And I didn't even know what he was talking about. At 14 years old or 16 or whatever, I'm like, I'm playing pro golf. What are you talking about? But now it's manifested.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Now it's manifested, and it's a. It's a reality.

[C]

But what you're looking for is you want to make the last offer.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Like, we're not getting stuff for 30% under market here, getting cheaper than anyone else. But. But what's. What I want is if, you know, Chris Powers Mineral Company offers this person I've been Talking to for five years, $30,000 an acre, I want him to call me and say, trent, if you beat this, I'll sell it to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And here's what Chris Powers offered me.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And we get a lot of that. And so we'll tell him right then and there, we'll do it. Or you should. You know what? I can't get there. You should go with Chris Powers.

[B]

Do you think it's from golf? Just how you're wired, that the y'. All, you just continue to kind of stay focused on the same thing. I mean, we're going to joke about it a little bit. You maybe have a little more shiny object syndrome, but when you talk to Trent, you're like, I don't know why we would stop buying minerals. We're just, like, really good at it. I can't figure out why we would do something else. Is that just how you're raised and how your mind works? Because the more successful you get, it's easy to get pulled. I mean, we're not going to talk about the EV charging station venture that we almost went on. But then when I'm like, what kind of deals do you do? You're like, we just take our excess money and we put it in the s and P500. That is like, the whole strategy. Did you think through this one, or is this just, like. It just seems simple and we just kind of keep it simple.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I'll say a couple things about it. Like, I have definitely said, hey, let's look at other ideas. I'm. I'm pretty curious and want to see other things. And I read a lot, and it makes me think these other ideas. But looking back, we've done pretty crappy and outside investments, outside what we know. And Trent's been really good about being diligent of, like, hey, look, we're good at this. If you want to have fun at something, going on vacation, let's just keep making money. And it's a great point. And I kind of sat there and thought about it for a second. I was like, yeah, that is actually a great point. You know, and. And I do think, you know, triangulating that to sports or golf, like, you do a repetitive thing a lot and really the more you do it, the better you get and the more success you have a lot of times. And so I think those things colliding have led us to be like, let's just keep it simple, stupid and just continue to be great at what you're at.

[B]

All right, so if we just wrapped it up and said if we sat back here in four more years, will it look a lot like the last four years or is there anything interesting again, kind of staying within the focus in the lane? Is it new plays? Is it new things? Like what will the next four years look like?

[C]

But you know, I think Tyler, we have a. We're land driven and longest. Right. So we never.

[B]

That means you won't operate or might not.

[C]

So like we've. We have a drilling deal. We really like. Like we put together 20,000 acres of leasehold in the Eagle Ford and it was just Tyler and I and William Malloy. Those are the three investors. And if you're not knowing us, 20,000 acres. It's quite a bit in shale play. So we got that sold and now we're looking at a drilling deal. And so, you know, we are interested in operating if we like the asset enough and think we can really turn a dollar into three to $5. And so we're, you know, we've talked about partnering with an operating team or building out our own. And so I wouldn't be shocked if we're in four years and we have a small operating team that we can go drill some Eagle Ford units or this bigger drilling deal that we like. I think that would be the only.

[B]

We like.

[C]

We like it doing that. But we will never stop buying minerals. I will be buying minerals when I'm 70 years old now. Hopefully they're all in gas. Minerals, maybe it's something, whatever they're putting in batteries.

[B]

Yeah, we're gonna go catch. We'll go be catching asteroids and drilling those asteroids with Elon for all the.

[A]

Maybe it's those memories.

[C]

Yeah, maybe.

[B]

All right. This was great. Thank you for joining me today.

[A]

You bet. Thanks, Chris. Thank you for the time.

[B]

I hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Fort podcast. Be sure to follow us on your favorite podcast platform or hop on over to YouTube to watch vlog full video episodes if that's what you'd prefer. For more information, you can check out thefortpod.com.