A (3:09)

Different breed. They call them Mexican fighting bulls.

B (3:12)

They're just born mean.

A (3:13)

Yeah, they're I guess originally they originated out of Spain for the bull fights. Yeah, but it's a totally they. They kind of look like Cory and he's like roping cattle. Yeah, but bigger. But they're mean from the time they hit the ground.

B (3:28)

So when you say you wake up every day and you're and you start working bulls, what does that even mean? Like to a guy like me, what is working bulls? Are you raising them from being babies?

A (3:41)

Some guys will send me like yearlings. I had a set of cows there that we would breed every year and then I would raise the calves. But I've got a deal worked out. Norris Dalton was a man that raised bulls forever. He was in a wheelchair for the whole time I knew him. Yeah. And he was always known for having big, mean, wild, some guns and we had kind of really wasn't hauling as much as he used to and everything. And I'd always buy bulls from him at bull sales and stuff like that. And he's originally old hillbilly from Kentucky and he lived in north Texas. And when I moved to Stephenville, about an hour and a half, two hours to his place, I started going up there and there's 900 acres up there and there was probably 200 plus cows on it. And then you'd go into a different pasture and there was 50 or 60 bulls that were four year old bulls and up that had never been tipped. They branded them when they weaned them off their mamas and they'd been out ever since. They were like mavericks wild. Had only seen one person their whole life. And so we started catching them and I was buying trailer loads at a time and Buckingham going through them, stuff like that. And Norris passed away and Nick the Guy that worked for him and Norris's wife Sheila, they, they want to keep the business going. Yeah. And Nick asked me, he said, how do we make it better? I said, well, for one, you can't turn them out to their four year old, five year old bulls. I said, when you wean them, send them to me, we'll go through them. The ones that aren't no good will go to the sale barn. And I said, then I'll start working the other ones. And I said, you need to call the older cows out that said that aren't, you know, raising a calf and things like that. And so I think there's roughly 150 head of cows still up there. And I've been swapping breed bulls in and out. So I didn't need, I had, I'd always keep 20 to 20, well, 20 to 30 head of cows there. Well, with 150 calves coming off that place, I didn't need my 20 or 30. Yeah, you know, in the way. So I sold all my cows and I started taking outside bulls in. Guys needing, you know, three year olds, never been bucked with guys on them, get them ready for riders, shoot, break them, get them where they stand pretty good in the chute and then get a few trips on them. And because I was buying bulls all the time, and then I got to thinking, I said, man, I'm just going to kind of slack off on buying so many bulls and I'll just start taking outside bulls in. They'll pay me to do the same thing I'm already doing and I don't have to buy him.

B (6:23)

And you're basic. How quickly can you tell if a bull is good or not? Is it genetic or do you train them for like a month and after a month you can kind of tell.

A (6:33)

It's got a lot to do with genetics now, but it's kind of like the racehorse business. You try to get the best bloodlines, but still it's just like a racehorse could be bred the best in the world and not want to run and you can't make him. And the same way with a bucking bull like he may be have the best set of papers you could ever see. And it's like flipping a quarter whether he wants to do it or not.

B (6:54)

So the day that bull arrives at your place where they're what, three or

A (6:59)

four years old, Some, some guys will send them younger, like those calves off of that place, they'll come to me

B (7:04)

when they're yearlings, what's happening the second they Step foot. Like what are the first 30 days look like?

A (7:10)

No, we'll, we'll give them a week or two to kind of adjust being in my place, swapping places, just sit

B (7:15)

in the pens and in the pasture

A (7:17)

and then once they kind of get acclimated, I guess you could say, to my place, then we start every. Everything's connected there. So whether they're in pens, whether in a pasture, you can go to two or three different loadouts, my squeeze chute where we can work them, or my back pins to go to the arena. And all you got to do is open and close gates. And so we start running them through, putting them in a bucking chute, messing with them, seeing how bad they're going to fight that chute. Because you know, if you get a, a three year old bull that's never been in a bucking shoot a day in his life, he's not going to say. It's kind of like claustrophobia, you know, he's not going to take it very good at first. And so you try to make it just as easy on them as possible, get them to calm down.

B (8:02)

Yeah.

A (8:03)

And once they calm down, like in the way I've got my place set up. So the pin they came out of, we'll push them down there, we'll get them in the back pants while open it to where it goes all the way back to the pin they came out of. Yeah, it'll be a straight shot. So when they leave that arena.

B (8:21)

The arena.

A (8:21)

So when they leave that arena, they're going all the way home, pretty much back to their pen. It teaches them to leave the arena faster and easier. They know where to go. And a lot of it's a bunch of dry work like that. Like, well, run them through, get them handling pretty good and you get in there and you kind of like in the pins. We sort them on foot, get them used to people being around them, sorting them. And once you get them kind of calmed down in the bucking chute, then we'll start putting bull ropes on them and crawling off in there, sitting on them, seeing how they're going to be when they feel the weight of a guy getting on them. We call it shoot breaking. Get them used to riders getting on them.

B (9:00)

Yep.

A (9:01)

And then once they get settled enough, then game time.

B (9:06)

So like from the first time they come in to the first time a human actually rides them is that just

A (9:12)

depends on where they've came from, you know, like I've had guys send me some bulls that and a lot of times. A lot of them are pretty much halfway broke in the bucking shoots already because now they have futurities and they put the little box on them, it's called a dummy. It's like a 10 or 15 depending on what size the calf is. Yearlands, they got a little bitty box you can buck them with. And two year old you put, I think it's like a 12 pound box, but it's got a remote with it. And so put that box on them, they go to bucking, you click it like a garage door opener, it releases and falls off. Yeah. And so a lot of them are already used to going through the shoots and things like that. They just had never had, you know, a human sit down on them.

B (10:02)

Yeah.

A (10:02)

So just kind of depends. You run them in there and figure out some of them it takes longer. Some of them they just already used to. And it doesn't bother them at all.

B (10:09)

And do they just get better over time, like. Yeah, it's not like how you're bucking it for. It's just like they're athletes. So four years later, they're bucking better than they were four years before.

A (10:19)

Yeah. Constantly I'm walking around like Gennaro, he feeds. So he feeds at 8 o' clock every morning. And you know, just depends. I work different sets, you know, one day we work one set, the next day we work a different set, you know, the day after that we might go back to the first set. Just depends on how they act. And I'm constantly walking around there looking at them, you know, make sure the we're feeding them enough or I can, you know, and, and that's one thing I looked up with him because he's pretty, what I call bull savvy. Like he understands them pretty good. So if one's bellying up like eating too much hay and getting a gut on him, you can back him off that hay a little bit and things like that. And he's pretty good about it. Like he. And, and that's hard to find because most people aren't that don't pay attention that much. You know, you hire somebody to do a job, they, they do the job then the bare minimum and that's it. And. But he pays attention to them. He loves working bulls, wants no part of riding bulls. And that's the best thing for me because I had a lot of guys want to come work for me. Hey, I'll work for you if you help me ride bulls. Yeah, well, it wouldn't last very long because they Wanted to do the bare minimum. And then they. Most of them don't like the way I go about bull riding. So it didn't last very long.

B (11:35)

Why don't most of them like the way he go about bull riding?

A (11:38)

Oh, tough. Hederman said it the best the other day. He said if somebody that's, you know, been on bulls and they want to, they want to be a great bull rider, it's pretty simple to teach them how to do it. Tell them to get on 10 bulls a day every day you'll figure out how to stay on. And guys aren't willing to put that much effort into it nowadays.

B (11:58)

Is that even like readily available? Like could. Could most guys go find a place to get on 10 bulls a day? Like in a. In this country? How many are there? Hundreds of locations to go do this. Is there 50?

A (12:10)

Just a. Just depends. Like when I was growing up, North Carolina, like nobody thinks about it being cowboy and it's the last place I think about NASCAR, things like that. Well, when I was 15, we could go to an open bull riding, 500 to 1,000 added almost every day of the week and never go past three hours from my house. And you would be riding Monday to. And we would get on that. Everybody asked me how many bulls, how many practice bullets you get on us before the pbr or after? And I said, well, before you got in the pbr, the guy traveled with Brian Canner. I said we got on both seven days a week and twice on Sunday. Why? Because they ran a morning. That's what they had a. On Sunday they would have a jackpot in South Carolina at 12 o' clock we'd go ride there, jump the truck, haul butt back to right by my house. And they had a boy ride every Sunday night. So Monday they had a open deal, 500 added. We'd go there on Monday nights. Tuesday night Jerome Davis had a open bull riding. We'd go there. Wednesday nights we'd go to a practice pen. Thursday nights Boyce would have his bull riding Friday. Saturday we'd go to either bull riding or rodeos. And then Sunday we'd go to South Carolina at 12 o' clock. And then we'd be by my house that night at another bull riding.

B (13:34)

Do you just build a muscle where you're not like, are you just sore? The whole like I'm just imagining you're sitting there with these 1800. If you're doing that all day, do you just like not get sore anymore at some point or you always sore

A (13:46)

you're Always sore, but you get used to it. You know, I. I went. Samantha talked me into going. My wife, she talked me into going to the chiropractor.

B (13:55)

Yeah.

A (13:55)

Get all lined back up. Because as much as I'd been beat up and broke and things like that, the worst thing. And still this day, the worst thing is my hip. Yeah. My right hip is shot. And it's been that way for I don't know how long. Well, I would always be cockeyed. I always walked with a limp. I still do it like I'm in. It's not as bad now because I don't get on bulls all the time anymore, but used to be, no matter what, like, somebody's back, man, you healthy? Yeah, I'm good. And you watch me walking. You're like, no, no, he's not. And I'm like, hey, man, this is just part. And. But my hips would always be just messed up. And so I went. She taught. She talked me into going to it. And I went. And they line everything back up, pop everything where it's supposed to be and all this. And I'm like, oh, yeah. She's like, do you feel better? I was like, yeah. But the bad thing is, the first time I hit the ground, it's going to go all back out of whack again.

B (14:49)

So that was just wear and tear over time. That wasn't one injury. Just, you ride every day. Your hip's going to move.

A (14:55)

I. When I messed it up the first time, I got mashed behind the gate working bulls. He pinned me behind the gate, up against another gate, and I felt like I was in a human vice because he was pushing on the end of the gate, and I was stuck between it and he was. He mashed me so hard that when he finally backed off and the pressure guy, I was seeing stars. He had mashed me so, so hard, but he never hit my head. And I didn't know it at the time, but I'd fractured my dang hip.

B (15:22)

Yeah.

A (15:23)

And I just didn't think nothing about it. And over the years, just wear and tear, hitting the ground, getting stepped on, things like that. I. It's shot. I need a hip replacement. But they told me that I wasn't quite old enough to get it yet, because as active as I am, if they put a new one in, by the time I was probably 50, maybe 55, I would have to have another one.

B (15:44)

Does it hurt you right now, or

A (15:45)

it's just now the. The shot they put in, it makes feel pretty good until it Wears off and I go be bopping around pretty good. I look like I'm 98 years old, dragging my leg around.

B (15:58)

Yeah.

A (15:58)

And it's. It happens in about a two day span. One day you'll see me, I'll start walking slower and limping more. The next day it's worse. By the third day, I can't hardly walk. I just drag my leg around and I'll tell Samantha on the first day, hey, call the doc, tell him I need an appointment. And I'll go in, he'll run that needle in that joint, inject it. And that day it hurts worse than you know, because they shoot all that fluid in the joint and it just sits in there. And so it, it hurts worse aft right after. But then a day or so later, once it gets worked around all in there, then I'll be bopping, ready to go again.

B (16:39)

What's the earliest memory you remember riding a bull? Like, how do you. Would you play soccer or baseball or did you.

A (16:46)

I played baseball for eight or nine years. Played football for a couple years. Baseball. They, they wanted me to play for the high school and so you were

B (16:59)

still playing sports up into high school?

A (17:01)

Yeah, they, they wanted me to, but I wasn't because the games were on the weekends. So I'd always play for the county because the games are during the week and I'd go rodeos on the weekends. Well, coaches got started getting pretty pissed off that I would come in and couldn't hardly walk, run, you know, do anything. And finally they told me, they said, hey, you got to decide. I said, what? They said, baseball or rodeo? I said, we'll see y' all later.

B (17:24)

Yeah.

A (17:25)

And I think, okay. I was, I was our freshman and I mean, they, they wanted me to play for the high school and I told them no. And it wasn't long after that I just, I quit and stuck with rodeo.

B (17:36)

But the first bull you ever rode,

A (17:38)

you were, oh, I got.

B (17:39)

You're on a cap or something.

A (17:41)

Oh, yeah. I started riding sheep when I was three.

B (17:43)

Okay, so you've been doing this?

A (17:44)

Yeah, my. My dad, he rodeoed and he steer. Asshole. Never wrote bulls or anything like that, but I wrote sheep. And then I started getting on calves when I was probably five.

B (17:54)

And then is it riding sheep like they do where the. You just bear hug it and let it run?

A (17:58)

No, not like you see at the rodeos. Like you actually. You got a rope on them and. Yeah, you know, and I think I was five when I started on calves eight, eight or nine when I started Getting on stairs. And then I started getting on big bulls when I was 13.

B (18:17)

You got in a big bowl is

A (18:18)

what, 1500 what you see now, really?

B (18:21)

Were you scared?

A (18:23)

Not really. I got wrecked out, the first one I ever got on.

B (18:26)

What happened?

A (18:27)

Jerked me down, hit me inside the face and.

B (18:30)

Were you wearing a helmet then?

A (18:31)

It was.

B (18:33)

We don't wear helmets anymore.

A (18:35)

No, I didn't. I quit wearing it. I was. I was so mad when my parents decided they were gonna make me wear one. I was in the stair rat and.

B (18:44)

And it's like wearing training wheels.

A (18:46)

Yeah, that. That's back before everybody wore helmets. Yeah. So I was kind of like the. I stuck out like a sore thumb over. That was the only one with a helmet on. And it pissed me off. And I always told him, the day I turned 18, I was throwing that thing in a garbage can. Well, you know, you. You do something that much, they become habit. And so I kept wearing it. And I'd got on bulls without it before, just like practice bulls, things like that. And I think it was 2000, 11, 12 maybe. I was riding pretty bad. Like, I was fighting my head pretty bad. And so I was getting on as many practice bulls as I could. And we went to get on some bulls one day, and it was just habit that when I, like, got my. Put my vest on, I grabbed my helmet. Well, I didn't. I didn't realize. I didn't went. Got on this bull. And I mean, the. The practice bulls I used to get on were not like your. What you would think practice bulls were, like, they were pretty salty, and they were tournament ready. Yeah, like, I could. I could. I sent a lot of them to some PBRs, like the minor level PBRs, and you could be 86, 87 points on them. Like, they were pretty good bulls. Yeah, I got a one that turned back to the. Right away from my hand, and I wrote him dead easy. And he was bucking pretty hard. And I stepped off and someone said, man, you look good. I said, that felt good. Like, I'm all right. We're getting. We're riding back out of this slump. And somebody said, you gonna quit wearing it? I said, what are you talking about? I said, your helmet. And I just kind of looked up. I had my cowboy hat on, and I never put it back on. All right, when.

B (20:28)

When you got on that bowl the first time when you were 13, how long until you rode 8 seconds on a real bull? Was this. Did it take like a couple tries or was this like an all year Thing to, to finally ride eight.

A (20:39)

I mean, I. I can't remember when the first one I rode, if I remember the first one wrecked me out, though. Hit me in the head. I hung up to him, stomped me. And at first I was kind of like, what in the hell am I doing? You know? And then the next day I wanted to do it again. And I tell people it's something that once you try it, it gets in your blood. Like you, you don't ever get it out. And I'm not real sure when I wrote my first one, but when, when I was younger, I thought if a bull turned back to the left into my hand because I rode left handed, I was supposed to spur him. You know, I was always trying to spur everything I got on so that

B (21:22)

it would buck harder.

A (21:24)

Well, I mean, just to show off, pretty much.

B (21:26)

Yeah.

A (21:27)

Like you, you're just. You're showing you're in control, so. Yeah, but part of the time you're sparring because you have to, you know. Yeah. And I was told the guy that pretty much taught me how to ride bulls, Mike Law, was a friend of my dad's. His. He had daughters and sons that were my age, and so we were always at the same junior rodeos, things like that. Well, he, he started helping me. And then when I got to getting on big bulls, like, like I said, like one, one twinkled their ear like they were going to turn back to the left. I started spurring and it would get me throwed off a lot of times. And my dad was like, man, he needs to quit spurring so much. And Mike said, just wait, it'll come, it'll come. And it did. Because he always told me, he said, you ride bulls like you're out of bicycle. You keep moving constantly, and if you think you've got a good seat on them, move your feet again. Just constantly keep shuffling and keep jockeying around. And so that's how I always rode. Well, when I was younger, I was too loose because I would gap open and go to spurring. And if one hit went the other way, I was in a bind. And once I got older, I kind of got to learn. You know, you kind of learn control and that's what everybody, man, the older I got them young guys, when I was still riding bulls, they're like, you don't spur very many bulls. I said, one, I can'. I can't race my leg that high anymore. I think I'm spurring one, but I'm not moving my foot about that far. And. But I've. I've got some pictures at the house and where I'm. My foot's up beside my head, just giving it to one. I said, yeah. I said, you ride bulls for 20 years of your life. See if your legs work like they used to.

B (23:09)

Can you actually explain to the common person, like, what being in control of a bull actually, like, feel.

A (23:16)

Is it explainable you get in time with one? Yeah, it is. If you get in time with a bull and you're where you need to be, it feels like you're sitting in a rocking chair.

B (23:27)

Where do you need to be?

A (23:28)

Well, you got to kind of stay out of them. It depends on what the bull is doing, actually. What. Because.

B (23:33)

And are you feeling that in real time? Oh, you feel it with your legs,

A (23:36)

or is it just like everything is second nature? Everything has to be a reaction. You know, if. If a bull hits and goes right, and I think, oh, I need to move there, you're bucked off, it's too late. It has to be just.

B (23:49)

You just kind of know.

A (23:50)

Yeah.

B (23:51)

And you can feel it in your legs.

A (23:53)

I could. You know, you in you. You have to have real good control over your own body. And that's what I've told Jagger. I said, you know, a lot of. A lot of them guys, now they're leaning more towards the being an athlete kind of deal, exercising, working out, eating right and all that. And I said, well, you know, do whatever you want to. But I've told Jagger, like, Samantha took him to a kind of a trainer guy to, you know, work on stuff. And I said, she said, what do I tell him? Because I was working bulls and couldn't go. I said, core imbalance. That's the main two things. I said, because as long as your core's strong, you can control the rest of your body with your core. And I said, the better your balance is, the better you can ride. And, you know, that's why bull riders aren't very big, because you said, they're all pretty small. Yeah, I've weighed 140, 145 pounds since I can remember. And somebody says, well, you're little. I thought you'd be bigger. And they, they, you know, what's easier to balance £140 or 200.

B (24:57)

And it's.

A (24:58)

And I mean, that's the easiest way to explain it. Like, I've seen guys that are, were bigger could, you know, they come to a bull riding school or something and be like, what do I need to do? You need to lose weight. I Mean. And then some of them would take it the wrong way. And I wasn't being mean. Yeah, but like, if you want to do this, like, you need to lose weight because it's just, it's pretty simple. What's easier to balance 140 pounds or 200 pounds, you know, is okay.

B (25:24)

Real quick, I want to go back when. Did you actually know you were good?

A (25:28)

No.

B (25:29)

Like, if you is getting On a bullet 13, is that what most kids are doing these days? Or is that.

A (25:34)

Is that most of them are old? Was pretty early.

B (25:36)

That was early.

A (25:37)

Yeah.

B (25:38)

Were you good at that point or you just. You just fearless?

A (25:41)

I was. I wasn't very good. Like, everybody always asked me what. What bull riding school did you go to? I said, the one A trial and error.

B (25:50)

Yeah.

A (25:51)

What's that mean? If it didn't work, I tried not to do it again.

B (25:55)

Yeah.

A (25:55)

Kind of deal. But, you know, the guy I traveled with when I first started, like when I was 16, we started going to kind of some open bull runs and things. Brian Canterbury, he was a little bitty son of a gun, weighed about 110 pounds. And we were the opposite side of the coin. He had all the natural ability you could ever want. Anything he ever tried wakeboarding, pop right up, ride it, snowboarding. Anything he did, he could just do it. He was athletic and small enough. And I mean, he could do it. And riding bulls same way, getting a wreck. He would land on his feet like a cat and come out smelling like a rose. I was the opposite side of the coin. I didn't do things. And when rode, he looked correct on a bull. Like he. He never made moves that he didn't need to. No wasted motion. Just look. I guess you say look pretty riding one. Me, I was opposite side of the coin. I was flopping around, whipping my arm all over the place where it wasn't supposed to be. But the one thing I wouldn't do is I would not turn loose. I would not turn loose until my head hit the ground. And that's one reason I. I got on so many practice bulls and, you know, because I was bound and determined I was going to figure it out. And, you know, I told a lot of people, I said I. I never really thought in my own head that I knew how to ride bulls until after I was already in the pbr. Really. But I worked at it every day of my life. No, you know, back when I started, there wasn't social media. Yeah, there was nothing like that. So everybody thought, oh, well, he's Just been good his whole life. They didn't see what I was doing behind closed doors at home. And I've told a lot of guys, I said, you know, I said, bull riding is a sport where, you know, baseball players, they practice. I said, same. It's all the same. Yeah. It's more dangerous. You can die just as quick getting on a practice board as you can for a million bucks. You know, they step on you the right way, that's it, you're done. And I said, but you still got to practice. You know, it's a sport that the day you stop working at it is a day you never get any better.

B (28:01)

And, like, is it the type of deal where when you draw said bull, whatever bull it is, you. You kind of know what ride you're about to get or are. Some bulls do the same moves and some are just wildly different each time.

A (28:15)

Some of them's got set patterns, kind of. You know, I never liked knowing what a bull would do because I. I always. Everything I do in my life, I've always been better shooting from the hip. Yeah. Not thinking about it a whole lot. Yeah. And I've told people a million times, think long, think wrong. I go with my gut, and I go right off the bat. And, you know, and some guys that watch videos, you know, I got this bull, they'll look him up. Now you can look anything up on your dang phone or whatever, and they've got a deal. Now it's called pro bull stats.

B (28:54)

Okay.

A (28:55)

You type the bull's brand or his name in. It'll. If he's been out at professional events, it'll pull every out he's ever had. Really? Some of them. Most of them have videos with it. You just click the video and it'll. But like, that's an animal, that song. I may do the same thing 20 times in a row, and then you be the 21st guy, and he does something completely different. You know, it's a. It's a living animal. So a lot of them have. Yeah, they do have a tendency of doing the same things. The smarter, better bulls, they don't know they'll do something different every time. A lot of. Some of them buck off a feel. You know, they're smart. They'll get you rocked to one side, and then they'll go the other way.

B (29:41)

Is. Is bull riding the kind of thing where, let's say, like. Let's say you got to see in advance exactly what the bull is going to do before you got on it. Is it the type of thing that if you already knew what the bull would do, it would be like you would ride eight seconds every time. So sometimes it's just. You're never going to do it, no

A (30:00)

matter what, if you know what they're going to do or what they're supposed to do. Yeah. In the back of your mind, you're sitting a trap. Yeah. And in bull riding, you set a trap, you get called in it. Yeah. And then bulls, they're. They're way smarter than people give them credit for.

B (30:16)

Explain that.

A (30:17)

Well, I mean, you know the best way to explain it? A fly lands on their back, and they can swish their tail around there and hit that fly off of them. They know exactly where you are when you're sitting on them. They can feel your weight shift to one side or the other. And you know, them, the older bulls had been buck. They're smart. You know, you get in that bucking shoot when they know. I got by with it a lot better because I was so fast in the bucking shoots that a lot of times them bulls didn't know I was nodding.

B (30:46)

And was that a strategy or that's just. Oh, yeah, yeah.

A (30:49)

That's just how I went about it. I felt like it made me ride better because I would sit. You know, you sit back where you got room to heat your rope up and everything. But when I took my wrap, I never slid up. Like, I would take it, and I'd reach up on the buck and shoot, and I would nod and then slide up. Well, a lot of guys, they'll take their wrap, they'll slide up there and get set down. Well, them bulls get smart. So when they figure you slide up there and get on your rope, they go to leaning on you. And when they go to leaning on you, you got 1700 pounds mashing your leg up against a steel bucket.

B (31:24)

They're doing that to screw with you.

A (31:25)

Oh, yeah. They know exactly what they're doing.

B (31:29)

So by you waiting and going all at the same time, you have never

A (31:32)

knew it was coming.

B (31:34)

So you probably gained a half second or a second just by doing that.

A (31:37)

You know, they didn't know it was coming. They would stand better with me. They wouldn't get in their starting blocks is what we call it. Some of them will squat when they feel. Guys, they'll go to squatting down, get kind of low so they can spring out of that bucket. They're a lot smarter than you think. Like, I'll just see a cow, you know, or bull. I mean, they're. They're smart. And some of them, I've seen bulls that in the back pants, you can go back there and scratch all over them. You buck them and they will run any, anybody in front of them, they'll run them over.

B (32:07)

They know the game, what's going on in the shoot. So. And do you get to pick if you come out to the right or the left or that's for you.

A (32:16)

That's the bull.

B (32:17)

So whatever. Well, they already know that. If, if you're coming out on the left side, it's because that bull has, has proven that it's a left side dominant bull.

A (32:24)

Yeah. Like when, like, oh, those calves that come to my house and I put the dummies on them. When I start putting the dummies on them, I record all of them. You know, I'll have somebody video on them so I can watch them back after we dummy them. And what I'm looking at is what lead their own when they leave that buck and shoot.

B (32:44)

Which means which way they turn their head.

A (32:45)

Nope, their feet.

B (32:47)

Okay.

A (32:47)

Their heads don't mean anything. And bulls, they'll sling their heads this way and then go that way. You know, you see which foot hits first when they leave out of there. That tells you what lead they're on.

B (32:58)

Okay.

A (32:59)

And some of them, like if you've got them on the left and where they leave on the left hand side, you know, if they, if they're on their right lead, it'll take them two or three jumps to either swap leads or they'll go out through there a little bit and then turn back to the right. Well, I kind of watch them and then you can swap them. You know, if one's on his right lead every time and then turns back to the right, I'll swap him and put him on the right side, you know, because he's on his right lead. I always, I know some guys that start all their calves and stuff out of a right hand delivery. I always start mine on the left hand side. Why this habit?

B (33:37)

It's just. No, no.

A (33:38)

You could do it the other way around if you wanted to.

B (33:40)

It's like superstition.

A (33:42)

I don't know. I just always run them out of the left. I found that most bulls, most calves that you run are naturally on their left lead for the most part.

B (33:54)

Does the shoot give a. Like, are, are all the top guys when they're in the shoot like. Or is anybody gaining like you kind of said you gained it. Is there any other way to like gain an advantage? And maybe you can talk about your suicide grip. But, like, how much of the bull ride has to do with what happens the second before they leave the shooting.

A (34:12)

The way I looked at it is I wanted those bulls to buck to their top potential so that you get the highest score. So I get the highest score. Some guys weren't like that. Some of them would pull that rope in them pretty tight and then just sit there and trying to take it, Take the air out of them, I guess you could say. Take the.

B (34:29)

What are they called? What'd you say?

A (34:30)

So call them soaking. Soaking them.

B (34:33)

So they're pulling it so tight that.

A (34:35)

Well, they pull it tight, and then they take their wrap, and then they just sit there and they screw off in there. And they're not that color. They're not tending the business, you know, they're just jacking around with them. But, you know, a lot of times when you see a guy do that, sometimes it is the bulls. The bulls leaning, the bull squatting, something like that. They're trying to get them standing up. But then there were some. There's some guys I've seen bull standing dead, perfect in the buck and shoot, and they're still messing around. Well, they're just trying to get an advantage, take a little bit out of that bull before they nod their head. I never was like that. I wanted them to buck as hard as they possibly could. So I pulled my rope and I pulled a tight rope because the way I tied my hand in there, you know, if I come off the right side, I was pretty much hung up, and I wanted my hand to stay on top of that bull's back and not slide and be under his belly. And so I pulled a pretty tight rope, but I didn't sit in there, you know, when I pulled it, as soon as I took my wrap, them guys on the outside opened the gate. They were getting ready because I was. The nod was coming pretty fast.

B (35:37)

Like, I knew it.

A (35:38)

Yeah. And I would tell them guys, if they swap gate men at them deals, you know, if there was some new gate man, I would tell him, hey, I'd rather you be early than late any day. And I said, when I take my rap, I'm getting ready to nod, so pay attention. And Because a lot of times it catch guys off guard, because you get used to 12 guys in a row slide up there, and they're getting ready and they're taking their time and they're. And then they nod. Well, me, you had to be paying attention because I did it fast. Like, I'd take my wrap And I'd lay my tail up there and when I grabbed the top of that bucket, shoot, I was nodding and going all at the same time. And. And if they were late and didn't catch it, well, I would hit up there where I was supposed to be. Well, the gate wasn't open. A lot of times it'd make them bulls go to bucking in there.

B (36:27)

Yeah.

A (36:27)

And so I'd always tell them, look, I, I'd rather you be early than late any day. I said, if you are early, I will never say I did not. I promise you.

B (36:35)

That is the only reason why another bull rider wouldn't pull it as tight as you is because they're nervous they're going to get caught up if they get flung off. Like, is there any reason why you wouldn't go as tight as possible as possible?

A (36:45)

When I was younger I didn't pull it as tight. But just.

B (36:47)

Is that because you didn't know?

A (36:48)

Well, because I was a little bitty and it couldn't actually. It would, it would. Well, somebody else is always pulling the rope, but you can back off that rope and it's like a shop, a shock absorber. You know, I was little bitty, you know, I'm 30, almost 40 now. And you can imagine how big I was when I was 14 and I was getting on 16, 1700 pound bulls. So I was little and they were so big and strong that they would just snatch the piss out of me. So I could back off that rope and leave it a little bit looser. Not just completely loose, but where it would wiggle a little bit and that would give me a little extra. When they dropped and jerked on me, it wasn't just taking it all on the end of my arm, it was a little bit of give in there. And then once I got bigger and a little bit older, then I started pulling it tight because I'd get hung up and wrecked out and stomped. And I always wanted my hand to stay on top. I didn't want it sliding down underneath because when it gets under their belly, you're all up in their back legs.

B (37:49)

That's just literally what you just said.

A (37:51)

Like your, your hand, that's how I last. Right in my liver.

B (37:56)

It just landed straight in your liver.

A (37:58)

Stomped me with both back feet right in my stomach.

B (38:01)

Do you just lay there after? Like what do you. You got to get up adrenaline going so quick.

A (38:05)

You have a, A lot of people say I don't see how you got over. Like when I broke my neck and things like that. And there's only one time I've ever been carried out of any arena. I've got up. Walked out of every arena I've ever been in, except for one. And that's because I didn't know. They were rolling me and knocked me out.

B (38:20)

And when I. I've seen that.

A (38:22)

When I tore my shoulder up and

B (38:24)

you were just laying there in the.

A (38:26)

Yeah, I was face down. And I woke up pretty quick. I didn't have a concussion. I knew exactly what had happened. It wasn't like I lost anything. I knew what bull I got on. I knew exactly what happened and when I couldn't see anything. So when they got to me, I told him to take my hat off. And Because I didn't know where the bull was at, like, all I could hear was somebody saying, debbie, you gotta quit moving. I said, take my hat off. I couldn't see anything. And I remember I was pushing with this arm to, like, get up off my belly, and I was trying to put this arm in front of me, and it wouldn't work. It was just laying over there. And I was like, man, I must have broke my arm or something. Well, when they rolled me over, I didn't know. They rolled me right onto a backboard. And I was talking to that doctor that was in Calgary, and he was asking about my head. No. I said, look, my head's fine. I don't have a concussion. Told him everything. He said, well, what hurts? I said, my shoulder. It is out. He looked down. He said, yeah, bad too. I said, could you hand me my arm? And he said, what? I said, pick my arm up. And he picked it up. I got a hold of it. I said, I'm fine now. Well, then they started strapping me, put neck brace on me and strapping me that backboard. I said, what are you doing? He said, well, it's just for precaution, safety. I was mad. I was going out that arena. And I told him. I said, you know how many times I've ever been carried out of the arena? No, I said, never. And I said, the last time I checked, there's not a damn thing wrong with my legs. And they took me. They got a hospital room right under the announcer stand at Calgary. And they took me in there and they gave me some pain medicine and everything.

B (39:58)

And did they let you smoke a cigarette inside or.

A (40:00)

No, no, not that one.

B (40:01)

Not that one.

A (40:02)

And he said, we're gonna have to pop your shoulder back in. I said, you're not doing anything until you unstrap this Neck brace and unstrapped me off this board. Like, I can handle being strapped down, but I don't like it.

B (40:14)

Yeah.

A (40:15)

And I said, you unstrap me and do whatever you want to with me. And he. He said, well, we can't. And I said, well, you're not gonna mess my shoulder. Then he said, well, how are you gonna stop us? And I laid my arm across my stomach and I hand. I'll fight every one of you. I said, unstrap this. You can do whatever you want. They unstrapped me and they. They got her pop back in. Which I don't know if that was a good thing or a bad thing, because after I had the x rays and MRIs, the only thing that was holding my arm on was the skin. I completely tore everything in my shoulder.

B (40:46)

For the record. Will you just go through your injury list?

A (40:49)

No. How long you want to do this podcast? Yeah, we got time. That list is way longer than the accomplishments.

B (40:58)

Every arm or every limb.

A (41:01)

This. Elbows. I don't know why you'd have to ask Tandy what I was tore up and used to. I wore a brace on it for a long time to keep it from hyper extending. Because if a bulls would snatch it and pop it all the way straight, like when I'm. I can't straighten it all the way out. Just normal.

B (41:19)

Yeah.

A (41:19)

But if a bull would pop it straight, it would lock in a 90 and it would swell up real bad. And it would stay like that for about three or four days. And then I could. It'd start working again eventually. But as long as I wore that brace on it, keep it from doing it. And then. But I was real bad. I hated taping stuff. I hated wearing braces. I didn't like any of it. Like, I didn't like anything. And let's see. There's no acl, MCL or PCL on my right knee. No ACL or mcl. My left knee. The hip is probably easier to say what's not wrong with it. There's. I think there's three or four fractures in the hip. Hip impingement, bone spurs, calcium buildup. I ripped a tendon completely into. That's in there. I don't know. I broke my jaw, broke my eye socket, Got a plate and six screws. My left hand broke. Dang near all those knuckles on this hand. That's why they're all crooked and don't work right. And broke my leg. Broke the small bone in each leg a couple different times. Would never let them cast it. And Last shredded my liver, broke all my ribs on my right side. Last shredded my kidney clasp, lung, and a ton of stitches.

B (42:47)

So there's basically like, you're never not riding injured.

A (42:51)

Yeah, that's what I've always told. If you can't deal with some pain, you might as well just try to ride.

B (42:57)

If you had to wait for every single one of those to heal, you just wouldn't had a career.

A (43:01)

No, I know. That's what I always said. If I was set out for any. Every strain or tear or something like that, I'd have never made it to the PBR.

B (43:11)

So, like in most sports, the difference between first and, let's say top one in the world, and top 50 is actually not like it's a game of inches. What separate. What makes number one number one and number 50 number 50, that's above their shoulders. It's all in their head.

A (43:35)

I'm no tougher than you. I'm no tougher than anyone else on this face of this earth.

B (43:40)

Psycho.

A (43:40)

I told myself I was tougher and I believed it. No matter how bad I was hurt, for some reason, the way I was wired was I still felt like I could ride them. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it was. I. I see guys now. Like, doctor said, well, you probably need to sit out. Oh, okay. Yeah. I was the one to argue. I was like, man, I can still do it. You better break out your tape. Tape this song on together, because I'm riding. You know, I just. I loved riding bulls so much, and it wasn't like a lot of it had to do with me. I wanted to prove to myself I could do it. You know, I wanted to prove that I was tough to myself. You know, no matter how bad I was hurt, I can still put it out of my mind for eight seconds and ride them. And that has to do with all above your shoulders. It doesn't mean like everybody said, oh, your pain tolerance must be through the roof. Well, yeah, I've tried. I mean it now. I've trained myself to be that way, but it's because I told myself I was.

B (44:38)

Yeah.

A (44:38)

You know, it's all how you think and look at things. You know, a lot of guys are like, well, I did this. I, you know, I don't need to ride. Well, I could do the same thing. Like, I might have to tape it every time I ride, but I can do it. I can get by. I may not be able to run very good when I hit the ground, but I can crawl pretty fast. And, you know, when I broke my Neck, my left leg, left foot and right ankle were broken. When I broke my neck. They did a full body X ray on me when I went into the hospital, and that surgeon told Samantha, said, you know, when he. We did the X ray, we noticed that his left leg, his left foot and his right ankle are broken. She said, yeah, he knew that before he got here. And he asked me, he said, well, why don't you keep going? And I said, they take the top 15 in the world to the NFR. He said, yeah. I said I was sitting 17th, I wasn't going to stop.

B (45:30)

Yep.

A (45:30)

Like, I was, you know, I did at the time when, like, when I got to Lewiston that night, I didn't know what leg to limp on. Like, they were swelled up, beat. All the hell I was. I had tennis shoes on. Well, I had a walking boot on one foot, tennis shoe on the other, and, like, they were. My legs were shot. And actually, when I hit the ground that night, when I landed on my head, my first thought was, man, thank God he didn't step on my legs. And I rolled over and went to push and get up, and I was like, I just broke my neck.

B (46:00)

You knew it.

A (46:01)

Oh, yeah, I felt it as soon as I pushed, when I, When I. I put my hands on the ground, when I raised my head up, like, to push and raise up, when I tried to look up, I felt it. And I said, I just broke my neck. You know, I broke enough stuff. I know what it was. And because I. I broke my back, I don't know what year it was, and same deal, I felt it was like somebody stuck a knife just right where. And I walked out of the arena and Tandy Freeman was standing there. He's like, you're right. I said, no, I just broke my back, my shoulder blades. And they sent me the hospital and they X rayed it. He come in, he said, you were right. T1, T2 is fractured. I said, I told you I felt it, I could, you know, and that was the same deal. When I went to get up that night and I. When I picked my head up because I pushed and I was looking at the ground, I pushed like this and was all right. But when I. I put my, you know, done like that to look up, I felt it. And I was like, oh, man, I just broke my neck. And I didn't think it was that bad. It shot a pain through this arm at first, but at first I thought it was something to do with my shoulder because I've got. There's 13 anchors in it. And I first thought was I just screwed. I jacked my shoulder up again because I couldn't like it. It locked up like my fingers curled up like I couldn't straighten them. And so I just tucked it in like this and I walked on my knees and I wiggled my way up on my feet and I walked back to the bucking chutes. And those guys were like, yeah. I said, well, I just broke my neck. And they said, don't move. I said, a bull gone. They said, yep. I said, let me out of this chute. I turned and walked out of the arena. And when I walked out the let out gate, the one time in my entire life I walked straight to a set of paramedics ever. Yeah, you know, and I walked straight to him. There was a bench right beside him and I sat down and he said, what's going on? I said, my neck's broke. And that's what I'd rode from Ellensburg, Washington. Samantha and Jagger stayed with the RV there. I jumped in with Kai Hamilton, Stetson Wright, we're going to run to Lewiston, ride, drive right back to Ellensburg and Kai. And then somebody asked me, so you really think he broke his neck? And Kai said, well, I've watched him on TV and I've never seen him walk straight to paramedics ever, no matter how bad he was hurt. And. But I knew, I didn't think it was as bad as it was because everything, because that that pain went away. My fingers started working again, you know, in my arm. Like every all the feeling come back and I was like, oh, that ain't that bad, you know. So I really wasn't too worried. I thought, well, I broke something in there. And then come to find out it was a lot worse than what I thought.

B (48:40)

How long between that and then the doctor saying that's it, couple of days.

A (48:47)

Yeah, I went, they took me to the hospital, they did the X ray that came in and told me that they were probably going to have to do surgery. And the hospital in Lewiston, Idaho is not too large of an establishment.

B (48:58)

It's not a Dallas.

A (48:59)

No. So I was kind of nervous. I was like, I don't know if I want these people cutting on my neck. And so I called Tandy and I said, look, I broke my neck. I'm in Lewiston, Idaho. I said, they're wanting to do surgery, but I don't know, you know, if I want them doing it here. And I said, if I can get that surgeon to call you, will you just Figure out what the deal is. He said, yeah. So I. That surgeon was real nice, the one that actually did my surgery. But he called Tandy. They talked. Tandy called me about 20, 30 minutes later. He said, you're having surgery in Louis Donato. And he said, you're in good hands. He said, he's a real good doctor. He said, but you're having it there. Why? They can't move you, they can't drive you, they can't fly you. They can't move you. I said, that bad? He said, it's not very good. So I kind of knew. Then I was like, if he's telling me that because Tandy Freeman's been at bull riding's and around bull riding since the 90s, so he's seen everything and anything you could see. And so him to say it wasn't very good, I knew it had to be pretty bad. And that surgeon, once he did the surgery, he told me, he said, I'm not sure why. I'm not real sure why you're not paraplegic. And I said, what do you mean? He said, if you had any room at all, you had a millimeter, maybe, really, the disc was smashed into my spinal cord. And they cut my throat, went in the front, took the disc out the front, then cut the back of my neck, put plate, screws and rod in the back. And he told me, he said, surgery went good. I was like, perfect. And he said, now your occupation. I said, what about it might be time for to look into a different one. And I said, why? He said, well, where we fix, you'll never have to worry about it again. But it's so stout that it's going to weaken above and blow it. And he said, it's not 100% chance, but it's about 98, 99. You land on your head again, you'll snap your neck above or below where we fix. That's why I'm listening. He said, blow. You're in a wheelchair the rest of your life above your dead. I said, oh, great. Those are wonderful odds. Thank you very much. And he said, he kind of looked at me and I said, because there's a hundred percent chance I'm going to land on my head for the last 20 years of my life. I use my head as a landing gear. And evidently it weighed more my feet because when I went up in the air, my head came down first and I always landed on it.

B (51:24)

How much does the. So you said it's mental, which I. Okay, is any of it Technique is.

A (51:33)

Oh yeah.

B (51:34)

And. And does Mental go bad for a lot of guys where they're good until they've had that first terrible injury and then they never. It's like bull block. They can't ever snap out of it.

A (51:44)

Crack the egg in them.

B (51:45)

Is that what you call it? So like the top guys in the world right now, how old are they?

A (51:51)

No, I mean John, he's one of the best ones going cranberry. He's.

B (51:58)

And he's got it here obviously.

A (51:59)

Oh yeah.

B (52:00)

But does he have. Is there anything physical about it or.

A (52:03)

Oh yeah, yeah. You got to be in shape or

B (52:06)

maybe just like are they born with a gift of technique that's just like. They're just natural.

A (52:11)

Some of them are. Yeah. Yeah. I'd say I wasn't very natural at it. I had to work my ass off at it.

B (52:16)

You were just flying around.

A (52:17)

Yeah, I looked like. There's not too many videos from when I was 14 or 15 getting on bulls. But you would look at it and be like oh my God. But I'd make the whistle because I wouldn't turn loose. I did it the most incorrect way possible. But I worked at it every day of my life to figure it out.

B (52:35)

So you're. Because of Mental, you stayed on bulls longer that most guys would have just let go at some point.

A (52:43)

I was, I was in for the. Till the bitter end. I didn't know when to let go. And you know, the older I got and for sure after I broke my hand, it messed the filling up in it and everything. Like the way I took my rap when I was riding. I've always took my rap the same way. And did you teach yourself that or

B (53:06)

did somebody teach you that?

A (53:08)

I mean you just kind of do it over time. I just did it like you watch them old school bull riding. A lot of guys do it. Some guys don't. It. It's whatever feels good to you. And the way my pinky always felt better to me to run it between the ring finger and the little finger. I felt like I could hold on that rope better. And because you know 1700 pound bullet drops out of there and snatches on your arm, you got to have that thing tied in there pretty good to keep a hold of it. And so I always felt like I just could hold on to it better. Had a better grip on it if I split it through there in return. Double edged sword, you know. Felt good. My hand didn't come out and. But if I come off the right side, I was going to hang and drag so it wouldn't come out. And you'd have to work quite a bit harder to get it out. So this.

B (53:59)

You could tell right out the gate, you're like. The bull would make a move and you're like, this is going to happen.

A (54:05)

Oh, yeah.

B (54:06)

Or the odds of this happening have just gone up.

A (54:09)

Middle of the ride, you get out of shape and you're in a dog fight. And like the day I tore my shoulder up like, I rode the bull, and when the whistle blew, I was out of shape and behind. And I. I knew I was like, well, I'm about to hang to this son of a gun because where the position I was in, I knew what was coming. And what made that worse is my rope slipped across that bull's back.

B (54:32)

Yeah.

A (54:33)

So as I'm getting flung over his right shoulder, instead of it staying up on top of me, my legs going down, and it slid with me when it slipped. It just slid me down right up underneath him. And he kicked at me is all he did. And when he kicked at me, he stepped in that armpit. Well, I had. I had this arm out to catch myself on the ground. And when he stepped in me, it. The way it snapped me to the ground, it popped my shoulder out the bottom side and just tore completely everything.

B (55:05)

How much do the. Both the bullfighters, the. The clown. Rodeo clowns. What do we call them?

A (55:11)

Rodeo bull fighters.

B (55:12)

Fighters. How much do they matter?

A (55:15)

A lot. I'd be a. In way worse shape. It wouldn't from a.

B (55:19)

From a. Bulls would have trampled you after you fell type situation. But do they matter, like during the ride, or is there any other time they matter than protecting you post ride?

A (55:30)

Not really. When a bull's bucking, they. They're. They're reading that bull is what they're doing. They're watching you and reading that bull. Yeah. And they kind of hang back while you're riding so you don't. So they don't accidentally get the bull's attention.

B (55:44)

Yeah.

A (55:44)

But when the whistle blows, like if a bull spin into the left into my hand, the whistle blows, I reach down and grab my tail to undo the wrap. While you see people sitting there holding it. Well, they're. They'll come in, they'll try to get that bull's attention and take him the other way. Because the rule of thumb is, like, you see a lot of guys jump off, away from their hand now, but it's because they ride with a Brazilian rope, and the Brazilian ropes are built backwards from an American rope.

B (56:16)

What does that mean?

A (56:17)

Like, my rope got the handle on it and there's a loop on it.

B (56:21)

Yeah.

A (56:21)

The tail runs through your loop. You pull it up the same side as the hand you ride with.

B (56:27)

Yeah.

A (56:27)

Brazilian rope's backwards, so it's got the same handle, but the loops on that side and the tail comes across their back so it pulls from the opposite side. It's just backwards.

B (56:37)

What do the Brazilians know that we don't know?

A (56:40)

I don't know. Like everybody, you. They don't hang up near as bad with a Brazilian rope as you do with an American rope. It still happens, just bull riding. I mean, you could. You're going to get hung up no matter what you use. But a lot of guys have swapped from an American rope and went to a Brazilian rope because you don't get hung up as much. And I got on with a Brazilian rope one time left handed and did not like it. And everybody asked me, hey, why don't you try Brazilian? I said, I started American rope and I'll finish with American rope. And that's another thing. People put too much thought into that if you're in the right spot and you're doing it correctly, you can ride them with a flank rope. You know, it doesn't matter. Any kind of rope wrapped around them.

B (57:31)

Is there like, is there a certain thing that a bull does? That is why riders fly off like. Like if you were to say as soon as you get in this position, you're toast. Like what? Obviously they're bucking, they're going nuts. But for the professionals, what gets people out of whack the quickest? Because some guys fly off in like a second and some guys, it takes six seconds. Like, what's the thing that gets them. How does somebody fly off in a second?

A (58:00)

A second. They don't leave the shoe. Right.

B (58:03)

Okay, maybe. Okay, two or three seconds.

A (58:05)

They're the guys that get bucked off, like right out of the chute. They're. They're behind when they nodded. That's why I would always nod and slide to them bulls, because if the gate man opened it at the right time, I'd already nodded. I'm sliding, going to my rope. That bull's always going to leave in a forward motion. Right. He's standing here. He has to go that way or has to go that way.

B (58:28)

Yeah.

A (58:29)

And so I'm moving in the same direction. He's getting ready to start moving in, so I'm leaving with him. A lot of guys, I'd always tell him, I mean, It's H to his own. It's kind of, you know, whatever fits you and makes you think you rode better, then that's what you do. But some guys like to slide up there and get on the rope, then nod. Well, for me, I couldn't do it. I would get up there, slap there, and as soon as I would not, I'd sit down on my butt. Yeah, well, you sit down on your butt, you're behind.

B (58:59)

But even the best bull riders in the world will leave the shoot wrong sometimes on accident or just like getting cocky or something.

A (59:06)

I mean, just.

B (59:08)

It's like out of your control type thing.

A (59:10)

Well, I've done it before. Yeah, just kind of like a. Oh. Moment. I shouldn't have done that.

B (59:19)

And you know it immediately.

A (59:20)

Oh, yeah. Like I knew every time I hit the ground. Jerome Robinson was like one of the arena directors. Yeah, he walked around a suit jacket. He passed away, but he rode for. I don't know how many years old bulls made the nfr. I don't know how many times in. He would always be standing. You never really saw him if you were watching it on TV a whole lot because he didn't move a whole lot. He had a headset on papers, and he'd always stand in a corner and he had a suit jacket on. Well, if I would get bucked off and he was somewhere close, I would always walk to him and say, hey, what do you think? To make sure what I'm thinking I did wrong looked, you know, make sure it was the same. How did it look on the outside looking in? I know what I think I did wrong, but what do you think I did wrong to see if I'm on the right page. And, you know, he. I trusted him more than I did anyone else. So I'd go and ask him and just to make sure I had it. But 99% of times when I hit the ground, I knew exactly what I did wrong. There's a few bulls I got on that bug me off that I absolutely have no idea what happened. They were just better than me that day.

B (60:28)

Yeah, but a lot of times you.

A (60:30)

You can.

B (60:31)

You just know.

A (60:32)

A lot of times I. Yeah. When you get bucked off, 99 of the time, it was your fault. You caused the buck off. You got out of shape or out of time with him. You whipped your free arm behind you. You know, you. You made one wrong move, and that's what caused the buck off wasn't the bull. You know, I've never blamed any bull. And you see a Lot of guys now. Well, that bull was a hard ride, you know, hunk of junk. And I told somebody at our bull riding, you know, somebody said, man, that one case got on the second bull. He's got some tricks to him, and he's kind of hard to ride. And so he said, man, that was a hunk of junk. I said, last time I checked, your job description is bull rider. Nowhere in there does it say, nice bulls only. Yeah. I said, you got to ride them all.

B (61:16)

What made. What made Bushwhacker the unstoppable? So would we consider him, like, the perfect bull?

A (61:24)

Yeah, for a stock contractor. What's that mean for the guy that owns him and bucking him? Yeah, you love him.

B (61:30)

And is it profitable to own a bull like Bushwacker? Like, is it a profitable industry?

A (61:35)

Yeah, it can be, but, I mean, it's something.

B (61:38)

It's more the legend and, like, the.

A (61:40)

If it's something like, you're not everybody jokes, you want to get in the bull business. You want to be a millionaire in the bull business, you better start out a billionaire, because it's a passion. You got to love it. You're not going to make no killing raising bucking bulls.

B (61:55)

Yeah.

A (61:55)

It's just being able to have something and watch them grow. And, you know, there's HD paging them by far, hands down, got the best breeding program. They show up with the most bulls,

B (62:07)

and that's because of genetics and their process for raising them.

A (62:11)

And there's no telling how many cows they've got up there they breed every year.

B (62:16)

So.

A (62:17)

And HD Page is one of the. I mean, they. They're constantly like. You know, I always say we work bulls every day. They work bulls every day. Yeah, because you take my place and times it by about 30, and you got theirs.

B (62:33)

Damn.

A (62:33)

You know, the amount of cattle and bulls and everything. So they're always doing something with bulls. And, you know, they raise them from the ground up. Some guys, they got backers, you know, they come in, they buy them, they go and buy them, and they haul them, which. There's no right or wrong to it, but, like, HD and them, if they show up with a bull on their trailer that has their brand on them, they raised him from a calf till he got there.

B (63:01)

And you just know it's a good bull.

A (63:03)

Oh, yeah. When you. You crawl in a buck and shoot and you got one with a rock and pee on his hip, you better cock your hammer, because 99% of the time, they're really good.

B (63:11)

Well, you said they. They would Think it's a. The perfect bull. What do you think is the perfect bull?

A (63:16)

I like bruiser. And that was.

B (63:17)

He was the most perfect bull you'd ever seen. What does that even mean?

A (63:21)

I mean, he bucked a lot of guys off, but if you did ride him, you were mid to high 90s. Not a mean bone in his body, and he's a big old pet, but he did buck. I. I had him three times. Rode him all three times. The first time, when you wrote them all, you never.

B (63:39)

He never bucked you off.

A (63:41)

Damn. Rode him all three times. First time I rode him was in Las Vegas at the world finals. Soon as the whistle blew, he whipped my feet behind me, hit me in the side of the head, broke my jaw. The second time I rode him was a year later at the world Finals, and the whistle blew, and he jerked me down and hit me and broke my collarbone. And the third time I wrote him was in Billings, Montana. And that was the only time I got away from him. I mean, the way he buck, like, he was just. He. He would. He hit quite a few people in the head because, I mean, he had a lot of air to him. Like, he would blow way up in the air. And if you could, you. If you got out of time, he was going to make you pay for it.

B (64:31)

This might be a dumb question. Is there, like, a ground strategy for when you land, or is it just, like, get the heck out of the way as quickly as possible, or is there. Are you, like, trained to do something?

A (64:41)

A lot of guys that. That was dismountain is not my forte.

B (64:45)

Yeah.

A (64:45)

I was never very good at it.

B (64:47)

Yeah.

A (64:47)

You know, a lot of guys now I see when they're teaching bull riding schools, they're also teaching. They're pretty much the correct way to tuck and roll. Yeah. You know, you hit the ground, roll, get up and going. And I was horrible at it. Like, I never got nervous riding bulls until the whistle blew, because then I had to figure out how to get the hell off of them. And I was not very good at it. My wife would tell you, I don't worry about him, to the whistle blows. And the bullfighters would even talk about how bad my dismounts were.

B (65:16)

Yeah.

A (65:17)

And I watched a lot of videos

B (65:20)

where you're, like, riding that thing for another five or six seconds past the whistle.

A (65:24)

Oh, yeah. Trying to pick my spot to get correct or trying to get my hand out of my head. And then one thing. After I broke my hand, my dismounts got even worse. Because what's my pinky don't work. So they had everybody call it the hook. Well, that would hang in the. The handle of my bull rope. So I'd pull my tail, have it all loose, and have it pictured in my mind going way differently than it came out, because I'd pick my leg up and go to step off. And that would hang on the handle of that bull rope. Well, when it would hang, you might as well engage the slingshot because it just jerk you right back to them. And I. I'd always tell the bullfighters, because, I mean, when. When they give you crap about dismounting bad, you dismount bad because their job is to save you. And I get them in all kinds of wrecks. And they'd always be mad and start j. Talking crap to me. And I. I'd always tell them, man, I'm what you refer to as job security. Yeah. I said, if everybody road good and dismounted good, you guys wouldn't have a job. I keep you in business, I said. So at least y' all know when I'm nodding, you better be on your toes.

B (66:38)

Okay, you rode Bruiser three times, but it took you the 13th to ride Bushwhacker.

A (66:44)

Well, it was, I think, the 11th time I wrote him. 11th time I got on him two more times. He bought me off.

B (66:50)

Okay, you wrote him 13 times.

A (66:52)

I attempted. You attempted 13 times?

B (66:55)

Was it only one that. I know it was just one that you rode, but I really haven't ever watched the other 12. Did you ever even come close on the other 12?

A (67:02)

Twice.

B (67:04)

And. And when? In what, like a couple milliseconds?

A (67:07)

Oh, I was probably in Louisiana. They had a Challenger minor league event, and I got on him both nights.

B (67:17)

Why was he the hardest to ride?

A (67:19)

Well, one. You never knew what he was going to do. He never. I got only 13 times, and he never did the same thing twice. But if you watch him, if you see, I'd always go home and whether I got bucked off, whether I made the whistle didn't matter. I'd put each ride in slow motion and watch him jump for jump, figure out what I needed to work on to be better. Well, that boy, you watch him in slow motion, you figure out what makes him hard. A lot of bulls, like, they had a big gray bull that HD And Dylan M. Raised, Long John, he would jerk a lot of people down and hit him in the face. But it's because of the way he bugged. He would rare, and he had so much rare. His front end Would come up so high, and then he would drop. Well, if you weren't in time with him and you got behind when he dropped, you hit the end of your arm. Once you hit the end of it, there's only one place to go. You're following it. And he jerked quite a few people down, and. But bushwacker, he had the same amount of rare, but when he was raring, he was going forward at the same time.

B (68:26)

Huh.

A (68:27)

So he was going up and away from you. Yeah. And so it made it a lot harder to stay where you needed to be, because when he had rare, like when a bull rares, your job is to climb up and out over them.

B (68:40)

Okay.

A (68:41)

And a lot of guys.

B (68:42)

What's that like in practice? Like you're pulling yourself.

A (68:45)

Just depends. Sometimes you push. You push yourself up there.

B (68:48)

Okay.

A (68:49)

And. But you. You run your knees in them and kind of drive out over them so that if that bulls. You think about it, if that bull's front end's going up like this, you got to be going up like that, too.

B (68:59)

Yeah.

A (69:00)

Because if you're here straight up and down when he's raring, when he breaks and drops over, you go back, and then you're going to follow his head, and that's when you start losing teeth and things of that nature. And. But he. He was like Long John. Like, he didn't. You know, when he rared and dropped, there wasn't that much distance from one jump to the next. It was just mainly up and down, straight power bushwacker. When. When he shot out of that bucking shoe and reared, he would go 10ft before his feet hit the ground.

B (69:34)

Yeah.

A (69:35)

So it was like most bulls. He's about the only one I've ever seen do it like that. Some bulls will shoot out of there, but they just shoot straight out.

B (69:44)

Yeah.

A (69:45)

He would rare. He'd be going up and away all at the same time. Yeah. And that's why, like, when he'd leave there, you would climb out over him when he'd go to rare. But being able to stay up there was what was the hard part. Because as he's coming up, he's going away. So it's just constantly wanting to raise you up and get you back. Well, then he had so much rare. And then when he dropped, you'd be. First time I got on him, he freaking jerked me down, flung me around his head. They had been talking him up. And so we were in California somewhere, and it was a draft in a short round, and I walk up there and They've been talking him up, being baddest one going and everything. So I said, give me. Let's try that one. Let's see what he's all about. And he knocked the piss out of me. The pictures on everything. He's. The bottom of his feet are probably that high off the ground. I'm arm length above him and my feet are in front of him. I'm stretched out above him. He jerked me down and hit me. When he hit me, it flung me back up in the air. I come down, my hand was still on the rope. He stomped my legs, jerked me loose. I don't know how it didn't break my leg. Still this day, I don't know how it didn't, because my legs crisscrossed. Because when he. When he jerked me around there, my legs crisscrossed and he stepped, like, on the inside leg, and it buckled the other one. I don't know how I didn't break it. And I got up and my first thought was, okay, he's for real. All right. Then it just got to where it was kind of a pride deal.

B (71:24)

Yep.

A (71:24)

And I had him in Louisiana at the minor league deal. And that was a deal with, like, my bull riding. It was a long round, short round. Well, long round, short round. Whoever was the high man got to get on Bushwhacker after that. So he was your third bull of the night, and so he's a bounty bull. Well, I was the high man each night. Yeah. The first night I nodded. Barely got to the end of my nod before he hit me in the face, split my chin open. Second night, I rode him like seven, seven seconds, a little over seven seconds. And he bugged me off. I wrote him seven seconds at Arlington, at Cowboy Stadium, and then I got on him at Decatur, another minor league deal. I was the last guy out. They were jamming that place out, outdoor arena. I freaking nod and jump up there. They trip. The gay gate swings open and the breaker trips. All the lights went out, really. And I didn't. I didn't make it till the lights came back on. Yeah, he drove my head in the ground, out through there. And that was the. The man that Julio Marino raised him from California. He raised him, he owned him. But Kent Cox, a guy that he's now passed away, but lived in Stephenville, he hauled him. He was like his handler. He hauled him everywhere. And that was always a joke between me and Kent. He'd always look at me. Remember when he kicked the lights out that night? I said, yeah, I was tied to it. My first thought was when the lights went. When it went dark. My first actual thought was, oh, shit, I can't ride him in a lit up arena. And now I'm tied to him in the dark. And it didn't work out very good. He about knocked me out. He drove my head in the ground so hard.

B (73:24)

How many. I mean, you can brag on yourself or answer it however you want, but like, how many championships did you walk away from by just picking the bulls? Like, there was probably so many times where the obvious answer was just ride that bull for 85 points and you got this thing. One or whatever it was.

A (73:42)

Yeah. I. Like I said earlier when we were eating, you know, if I want to. Want to be a businessman, I just chose a way different line of work.

B (73:50)

Yeah.

A (73:51)

And I went about bull riding completely with pride. There was no business in it. Yeah. It was cool. I was making enough money to make a living. That's. That was just extra. I was, I. And I always wanted to be able. Like, no matter what happened, I want to say I did it on my terms, in the way I wanted to do it. Yeah. You know, I wasn't going to try to take the easy route. I wasn't going to, you know, do that. And. Which I'm not saying is right or wrong. It's just the way I wanted to do it. Yeah. I wanted to prove to myself, no one else, I didn't care what anyone else thought, but I want to prove myself that there wasn't a bull there that I couldn't ride. And I. And I always told myself, the day I show up and there's a bull there that I think I know I can't ride, I'll quit and I'll never go back.

B (74:40)

Two weeks ago or maybe last week, that bull man hater died.

A (74:43)

Yeah.

B (74:43)

And I was at the stock show once, and I don't know the horse's name, but it was a bucking horse. And they did this whole ceremony. I mean, the entire audience is in tears. I had never even. I had no idea who that horse was. I was tearing up. I'm like, they sent it to this past. What is the gravity of when a bull like that goes out, like within the community?

A (75:05)

Is it like the death of a. Oh, that's. It's a bad deal, you know, because it's. People think it's animal cruelty. There's all kinds of crap. People think about it. Those bulls do it because they want to do it. You can't make them do it.

B (75:23)

Yeah.

A (75:24)

And, you know, it's, it's like, like an animal like him is part of your family. And what made that, that so bad? The man that hauled that bull and had the most to do with him just passed away not too long ago.

B (75:39)

An older gentleman, Right.

A (75:40)

Gene Owens, he had been doing it for 40 or 50 years, and Gene was a good guy and he held man hater. And then once he passed away, they, J.W. hart and Leanne, they had him and was hauling him. And, you know, I've read comments. You know, that's the one thing about social media I don't agree with these days. It gives everybody with a phone or a keyboard, they think their opinion matters. Yeah. And I told somebody, I said, I wish you'd go back to the old school way. And they said, what do you mean? I said, somebody talks shit, they get hit. I said, but you can't do that now everybody thinks their opinion matters.

B (76:19)

Yeah.

A (76:19)

And they, they, they feel the need, they need to voice their opinion. Well, I've read comments. They pushed the bull too hard. They should have retired him. Well, if that wouldn't have happened and he would have won bucking Bowler of the year this year, three years in a row, then what would you have said? Yeah.

B (76:33)

And he was on his way to doing it.

A (76:34)

Yes. And, and I've, I've explained to Jagger, you know, he's seven years old, but I've explained to him constantly, they, look, everything that's living is going to die.

B (76:47)

Yep.

A (76:47)

No matter what. There's no way around it. Everything. You're, you're. I said, you love your animals, you take care of your animals, but you better remember in the back of your head, one day it's going to be gone.

B (76:59)

Yeah.

A (76:59)

And there's not a dang thing you can do about it. I said, so you better take care of them and treat them right while they're here. I said, because one day they're not going to be. And so he understands it. Like he. Yeah, he gets it a lot better than most people do. Yeah. You know, and like that boy, that was just an unfortunate deal.

B (77:15)

But I mean, people are sobbing.

A (77:17)

Oh, yeah.

B (77:17)

Like, devastated.

A (77:19)

Oh, yeah. A lot of them are they, like,

B (77:21)

how did you hear that? Like, I'm sure in your world, like, is that just like a text that comes through? Like, how do you find out?

A (77:28)

Gennaro, one of his buddies, works at Back pins and he had text him, said, manager just broke his leg.

B (77:35)

And that's. Yeah.

A (77:36)

And, you know, bucking bull, you break your leg, that's a pretty bad deal. Depends on where it's at.

B (77:40)

Well, same with the horse, right?

A (77:41)

Yeah, pretty much same with a horse. You know, some of them, if it's down lower, they can cast them. They probably won't ever buck again, but you could breed them and things like that. But his was up kind of higher. And, you know, I saw the video, and it was just. He hit wrong one time, and that was. Was just like. Just like bull riders. Just like me. I landed the wrong way one time. The next day, I was a retired bull rider.

B (78:07)

Well, the coolest thing about your story is the bull that retired you is retiring on your place.

A (78:12)

Yeah.

B (78:13)

That's actually pretty cool.

A (78:14)

Yeah. Everybody, no hard feelings. I said, about what? I was like, he's a bucking bull.

B (78:21)

Serious question. Was there any dark days after we were like, shit, man, this is over.

A (78:26)

Oh, yeah.

B (78:27)

Did you still get the urge every day?

A (78:30)

Yeah, Only on days that end. And why? Yeah, I asked him a while back, one of the sports med guys, I asked him, I said, hey, I was to get on one more, what would my odds be? He said, not very good. And I said, man, it's hard not to scratch the itch when I'm around it. You know, that's not. I love bulls, and I love bucking bulls, and I love, like, doing those events we did that you came to. I love it. I would I. If I could do it every day, all day. That's all I do.

B (79:00)

So that's how I want to spend the rest of the conversation is Bucktown is. What do you say? It's built by bull riders for bull riders. What is your vision for the sport? If you had it your way going forward, like, what do you hope happens?

A (79:15)

I've always said that when you take the fun out of something, it becomes a job.

B (79:22)

Okay.

A (79:23)

The last time I checked, no bull rider in the entire world wants a job. That's why they chose to ride bulls for a living. Yeah. You know, that's why I chose ride bulls. I didn't have anybody telling me what to do or when to do it or how to do it. I rode bulls, so. And, you know, I've. I realized over the years that, you know, social media, more, you know, more TV time, they've taken away from what it used to be. You know, adding the team events in.

B (79:53)

Yeah.

A (79:53)

Bull run is not a team sport.

B (79:55)

Yep.

A (79:56)

You can call it a team sport, but when they nod their head, it's all on them. It's still individual.

B (80:04)

Yeah.

A (80:05)

You know, I can't help the song Unride the bull. Yeah. You know, he's got to do it.

B (80:09)

Yeah.

A (80:09)

And so. And I've kind of like the atmosphere, the whole nine yards. Everything's changed. You know, when I first came around, it was fun. And, you know, you. You better be a tough son of a gun, or the last place you wanted to walk into was that locker room, because them elder guys were going to damn sure tell you about it. And that's why I had fun riding bulls. Loved it.

B (80:36)

And as much when you were off the bull as when you were.

A (80:39)

Oh, yeah, it was all about, you know, the camaraderie, the hanging out. Now, I don't see much of that. Used to be the PBR started in January. In May was the last televised deal. May, June, July, they had what we called the summer run. We'd go almost every weekend, flying in and out of places, January till May. When that last televised deal was done, we loaded up my truck and camper, and there'd be eight or 10 of us in it. And I wouldn't go back to North Carolina. I'd show back up three months later, stay gone for three months straight. And you could go to. Bull riding is just. I mean, we'd be as far north before you get into Canada, as far south before you get into Mexico. And like, the. The way it usually worked out, the last bull riding we were at before we would drive back to North Carolina because Jerome had the last challenger event before the televised deal started was Malala, Oregon. So we'd be in Malala, Oregon. It was Friday, Saturday, Sunday. We would leave there, and we would drive straight through to North Carolina. And, you know, we. It was fun. We lived together. You know, I still talk. Casey A's Brian Kenner. I talk to them at least once or twice every, you know, week or two. Casey lives in Kansas. Brown still lives in North Carolina. But if you saw one, you saw the other ones, because we went everywhere together, we traveled everywhere together, we roomed together, and you don't see that anymore. Like, it's pretty much like, well, they fly in, they fly out, and that's it. You know, what would.

B (82:17)

Like a week.

A (82:18)

What?

B (82:18)

Run me through, like, a. A typical week. Because even just being here in Fort Worth, it's like, they'll ride, then they're driving down to Waco for the next day, then they're back here by night. So what would be like, a really busy week? What would that look like, travel wise? What would your schedule look like?

A (82:34)

I remember one year, I. I collapsed. My. My lung Was at home for six weeks. When I went back, it was right in the middle of the summer and

B (82:42)

that's where they stuck the huge tube up and around.

A (82:44)

Okay. Went the long way around to get to my lung and. Because.

B (82:49)

Why not?

A (82:50)

Yeah, that. So the first one I entered when I went back was Salinas, California.

B (82:58)

Okay.

A (82:59)

And it was. I want to say it was a Wednesday, Thursday bull riding.

B (83:06)

Okay.

A (83:08)

I think I was up Thursday. So I flew to Salinas Road. Thursday night. I was in Tulsa. Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Cheyenne, Wyoming. Monday, Tuesday, Livingston, Montana on Wednesday. Yuba City, California on Thursday. Weatherford, Texas. Friday, San Antonio. Saturday, Sunday.

B (83:24)

All through the car.

A (83:25)

Are you flying flying rental cars? Any way I could get there.

B (83:31)

And you were in a different league at this point. But like how the hell do most of these guys afford to rodeo that much? Like it seem that just that travel schedule alone is like a twenty thousand dollar week just. Or maybe it's not that much, but I don't.

A (83:46)

I mean it could be, but when that's.

B (83:52)

And so it just seems like it's very expensive and it's in your everywhere

A (83:56)

you get sponsors that helps out also. But you know, we were in a meeting one time when it's a PBR and some guys that weren't doing very good, they were kind of in the bottom and they were talking about the show up checks because I don't know if it's still the same, but back then when it was just the top 35 guys in the world, you got a show up check every weekend. Like if it was a two day and I mean it wasn't a whole lot, you know, two day event. It was like 300 bucks, you know, three day event. It was more things like that. Well, them guys were whining and talking about the guys at the bottom of the pack, you know, could barely get by, you know, paying with rooms and everything like that, that they should get paid more to show up. And they were talking about it and I just politely raised my hand back there and they said, yeah. I said, isn't this a competition? I said, yeah, what are you talking about? I said I've never expected to get paid for falling off. I said, that's why I try to stay on and win. I said, that's it. And you know, this hitting kids soccer.

B (85:04)

Yeah.

A (85:04)

Not everybody's getting a trophy.

B (85:05)

Yeah.

A (85:06)

If it was that easy, everybody would do it.

B (85:08)

Yeah.

A (85:08)

And so that's the way I looked at it is like in the way they have the, the team series structured. Those guys are making money before they. Whether they make the whistle or not. And it's ruining bull riding. And I told, when I was coaching, I told the gm, I said, you know, I said, you can tell a lot of these guys have never wrote broke. And he said, what do you mean? I said, that's a whole different effort you put out when you crawl in a buck and shoot and you spent the last dollar you had to pay your entry fees, and you crawl in that chute, and the only way you're getting home and the only way you're eating is to make sure you make the whistle. I said, that's a whole different amount of effort you put out. And I said, you can tell the people that has been in that situation and the ones that never have and never will be. I said, that's a whole different ball game. I said, when I was 14 years old, they told me, if I want to do this, I better get a job. And so from the time I was 14, I worked. I worked at a ball bearing plant, I worked at McDonald's, I landscaped, I rode horses, I did anything to make money so I could ride bulls. And from the time I was 14 till now, I worked my ass off to get every bit of it. And most of it was working to get better at riding bulls.

B (86:25)

And you called that ball bearing plant after you got your first big check, and you're like, I'm never coming back again.

A (86:30)

Actually, it was. I was leaving Tough Heater and had a boy right in here in Fort Worth. And it was Friday, Saturday, and I was leaving. You know, I'd been in Texas for about a month because I had a. They take me off schedule if I needed to go and stuff. So I'd been going for about a month, and I did okay, but not real good through that month. I mean, decent and tough spool riding at Will Rogers. And I was. We were driving home Sunday and I won 25, 000. And I. I called him and I said, hey, man, I appreciate that job and everything y' all did for me, but you can permanently take me off that schedule. I'm not coming back. I couldn't do it. That's one thing that, that drove me to ride good was because I realized. I realized at a young age that this was a do or die situation. You can tell somebody is do or die, life or death situation riding bulls, but they don't understand it until it gets to that point. Yeah, well, I had to get the job at the ball bearing plant because that bull stomped me in the guts. And last shred of my liver. And the surgeon told me I didn't go to the hospital till the next day. I went home first I knew I broke my ribs, but you know, how

B (87:52)

do you figure out your, your liver's lacerated? Are you peeing like green?

A (87:55)

No. Then that was one of the other thing. Like I, I wasn't peeing blood or anything like that. So I was like, man, I'm. I just broke a bunch of ribs, you know, I could tell my ribs were broke. So I was like, there's no they can do for that. Wrap it up and.

B (88:09)

Yeah.

A (88:10)

So I went home the next day, the next morning, I couldn't hardly get off the couch. Like I. And I looked down and it looked like you took a softball and cut it in half and stuck it on my stomach right there. And I was like, well, that can't be good. And so my grandma lived right by me, so I went to her house first. I said, what do you think ought to do? And they, you know, I couldn't talk very good. I didn't have no air, all them ribs. I raised my shirt and she said, well, it wouldn't be a bad idea to go get checked out. So I went to the doctor's office. I didn't go to the hospital. Well, they look at it and they say, you need to go to the hospital. I drove myself to the doctor's office, drove myself to the hospital, walk in, they run that diet through me and they went to freaking out. And next thing I know I was getting neck braced up, headed in the ICU and all this stuff. And they never would tell me what the hell was wrong. And they're like, the surgeon will be in here. And I'm like, for what? And finally a surgeon walked in and it was a lady and she's like, when did this. I said, what is going on? She said, you know, lacerated your liver. And I was like, oh. And she said, when did this happen? And at that time I was still on my parents insurance. I said, for insurance purposes or the truth? Yeah. She said, what do you mean? I said, for insurance. I was at home working cows and got ran over. Yeah, the truth? I was at a bull riding about three hours from here last night. And she said, last night? I said, yeah, about. Probably happened about 8:30, 9:00 clock last night. She said, why are you just coming? I said, and broke ribs can't do anything for that. And she said, well, your liver is almost split in two. She's like, internally, like inside was Cut almost all the way across. She said, you should have got up, made it five feet. It should have ruptured, and you bled out right there. She said, you should have never made it out of that arena. And she said, there's no medical reason and no reason why you're alive. But for some reason, instead of your liver rupturing, it just swelled up. That's what the knot was.

B (90:07)

Oh, really?

A (90:08)

It had swelled up where there was bleeding inside it. It just swelled. And she said, there's no medical reason or reason why you're still alive. It should have ruptured. And I said, well, good thing it didn't. And that's when I had to get a job because that bills coming in. And so I got the job at the ball bearing plant. I worked there about a week or two. And I told someone, I said, boy, when I go back to riding bulls, they're gonna have hell throwing me off. I said, why? I can't do that the rest of my life. Yeah. I was like, I can't do it. It drove me crazy. I was. Because we were inside a factory all day. I can't stand being inside. You know, like when I. You can ask my wife. Like, I. I get up early in the mornings, and I, you know, I like staying outside. I like working. I like doing things, you know, I can't just sit around all day. It drives me nuts.

B (91:04)

So some people when. When we were out at Bucktown, they said, this is the greatest. Like, the whole setup is a bull rider setup. Why is it the way the pin. Like, how is this all your brainchild that was in your head? So this is the perfect.

A (91:21)

The. The platforms and things like that, where y' all were standing, that's Randy's stuff.

B (91:25)

Oh, dude, that was so awesome.

A (91:27)

But, like, the back pins, all those pins that are behind it and everything, the way everything connects. Like, you know, when I was younger, all I ever wanted I rode horses and roped and did all that. But all I ever really wanted to do was ride bulls, just be a bull rider. And I thought to be a better bull rider, I had to, you know, not only get on practice bulls, but work cattle, work bulls every day. So that's all I did. So I went to setups that wasn't worth a. And was sketchy and about get everybody killed. And then I've been to some setups that were nice. And over the years, I've just paid attention to everywhere I'd been and how things were set up. And, you know, what made it flow easier and, and when we started, that's what Randy, he was over the platforms and all that. And I said, I'm the guy. Like, do you need to know which way to hinge a gate so which way it needs to swing so those bulls will flow and load better? I'm your guy. And so we started. And the welders that helped build that and weld all that together, they started in 21 and they're. And they're still out there welding.

B (92:32)

Now, is there just like a master plan or do you just keep coming up with new ideas?

A (92:36)

I keep coming up. I told them at first I said, we'll start on this side, work our way around. So we got there. Well, I mean, they would go do odd and different stuff, build stuff for people and things. And then like the last time I said, I called him, I said, got an idea? Yeah. And it was a big idea. I'm adding more pins out back on top of the hill. Big pins there'll be.

B (93:02)

Why?

A (93:03)

So I can have bigger traps to turn more bulls out in together.

B (93:07)

Okay.

A (93:11)

There will be 11 pins. A 16 foot alley all the way around the outside of the pins. A 16 foot alley right down the center of the pins. On the right side of the alley, there'll be six pins each. One of them is 130 by 175 apiece. Damn. And then the left side's got four pins the same size. The fifth one is a little bigger in shape. Different because the heel kind of dropped off. So we run along the hill. But. But it'll be. You can stack a lot of bulls back there.

B (93:42)

So you have the perfect setup. Like. And you're like, this is for bull riders.

A (93:47)

Oh, yeah.

B (93:47)

So I could sit here and say, well, the rodeos are for bull riders or PBRs for bull riders. Like, what if we sat here in like a few years and you absolutely hit your vision? Like, what's going to be happening for bull riders? Like, what's the vision of the bucktown?

A (94:02)

I, I don't know where it's going to go, but I, like, I told Randy, I said, everything we do is going to be old school.

B (94:08)

And old school means just, you know,

A (94:11)

like now you watch pbr, they got the replay clock or replay. They got a replay judge watching the replay in slow motion. You got two bag judges, two other judges. They go to temps now 0.2. I've never even heard of that. Oh, he made a great ride. He was 85.2. It'll make sense. And I said, everything's old School. I said, there's no replay here. There's no damn replay button to challenge a ride. I said, if a. If the. There's two judges. I said, if one of those judges calls you for slapping a bull and you didn't. Sorry about your luck. Yeah. If a judge doesn't call you and you slap a bull and you got by with it, congratulations.

B (94:58)

Yeah.

A (94:58)

You win some, you lose some. It's all part of riding bulls. And I said, I want to create something that bull riders have fun and want to go to.

B (95:08)

Yeah.

A (95:10)

You know, I say it now like some places guys feel obligated, they have to go. Yeah.

B (95:17)

But I've tried flying, fly out stuff.

A (95:19)

Fly and fly out there. It's old school. It's outside. I mean, you seen it? Yeah. There's. I got coolers full of beer sitting everywhere. I've got coolers full of monster. Coolers full of water. Like, if you want a beer, drink a beer. If you want a monster, there's monster. If you want a water, that's fine, too. I said, you know.

B (95:36)

And you forgot about the eight bottles of tequila.

A (95:39)

Well, yeah, that was up top. That's for the VIPs. I like to have a good time, and I like everybody else to have a good time.

B (95:45)

Yeah.

A (95:46)

And I like it. I told everybody, I said, look, the number one rule at Bucktown is there are no rules because nobody can tell us how to do this. We get to do it however we want to.

B (95:57)

Yep.

A (95:58)

And I told the judges, I said, look, if you think the bull stumbled or you. You think he hipped himself, give him a rewrite. I said, we're reride friendly around here. I said, because I promise you, I got plenty of bulls to buck. And I said, so don't be stingy. Don't. You know. I said, if you think they might deserve a rewrite, Ty goes to the runner, give him a rewrite. Yeah. And I said, I want guys to come here, get on good bulls, and have fun doing it.

B (96:29)

Okay. We talked about this that day, and I was like, this is all subjective. So what? It is an 87 and a half. Like, what's the difference sometimes between it? And you said something like, well, I know. I remember what it was like to always come back in second.

A (96:43)

Oh, yeah.

B (96:44)

When I thought I had won. But then you became number one. And you're like, I probably got a few bumps along the way, too, pager dude.

A (96:51)

So.

B (96:52)

So how does scoring, like, how I get. It's 50 and 50. Is it even possible to get a hundred like, is that kind of weird that they created a scoring system you could never actually even get to?

A (97:05)

There's only one recorded 100 point bull ride. And it wasn't, it wasn't.

B (97:11)

It was just the judges at the time.

A (97:14)

Yeah. I mean it's each to his own. I like who's watching. You know, it's kind of like me. I like that color. You don't like it. Correct. I mean it's same thing. It's human error. And so sometimes the judges get it right, sometimes they don't, but that's part of it. And now they, they've kind of make it where with that replay button and everything. It's. It's not old school anymore. It's got. It's too technical. Yeah. You know, I've told, I told them. I said, man, they're taking everything cowboy out of it. Yeah.

B (97:48)

You know, they're trying to make it too efficient.

A (97:50)

Yeah. And they're trying to make it too mainstream. And the thing is, right now everything's going western. The amount of people that watch Yellowstone and all that. Everybody wants to see that kind of stuff and they want to watch it. And we had so many comments on just the videos that we posted in which we're going to try to get it to where we can live stream. I doubt we'll have it done by next week, but, you know, that's on the bucket list to get finished and completed. Get good enough strong WI fi down there.

B (98:20)

We can live stream on Starlink, send in some.

A (98:24)

And you know, I just. Randy had a call with somebody. They're wanting to, you know, kind of televise it, put it on a. And I said, hey. I said, that's fine. I said, but you better remind them I'm gonna smoke cigarettes and I'm gonna drink beer wherever and whenever I want to.

B (98:47)

And that's fun. That's why it's gonna sell.

A (98:51)

And I said, because, you know, Marlboro Reds only. Oh yeah. And when I got like the last year I was riding in the pbr, I just, I didn't even like being there anymore.

B (99:06)

Would you have liked the rodeo series? Like are they both kind of going that direction or is rodeo.

A (99:12)

I had a lot of fun at rodeo.

B (99:14)

Like when I. PBR is just too corporate.

A (99:17)

When I stopped going to PBRs and started rodeoing, I was having a blast. You know, we bought an rv. Jagger, Samantha went everywhere I went. You know, between rodeos, if we do whatever the hell, you want to stay at a campground somewhere and do whatever and Man, I was having. I was back to having fun riding bulls because it was. Bull riding was always fun, but outside of riding bulls was back to being fun. And when I was. The last year I went to those PBRs, it was like I was going to a job. I'd fly out, get there, I'd sit in the locker room then. And then they'd at me if I wanted to drink beer. They'd at me if I, you know, smoking. They wanted to try to find me for smoking. And I had to watch eight some doing yoga. And I said, yeah, I wrote my generation, it's time for me to go rodeo. You know, it just. It just got to where it wasn't. It wasn't the same old school feel like that I wasn't. Got used to when I showed up. And none of the guys I traveled with were still riding. They were all retired. Like, yeah, there was younger guys that I hung out with and stuff, but it wasn't the same, you know? Yeah, man, when I first started going to them, I mean, they were more fun than an individual should probably have.

B (100:37)

And you think the younger generation wants that again?

A (100:40)

Oh, you can tell. I mean, I'm not saying go out, get drunk and party and stuff, but. Yeah, having a good time doesn't mean you got to drink for sure. And that's.

B (100:48)

But it's the vibe.

A (100:49)

Yeah, the vibe all the way around. It's laid back. And that's what I told him. I said, we're not rushing anybody, you know. Yeah. If somebody's taking too long in a bucket shoe for no good reason, you don't have to worry about rushing him because I'll chew his ass. I said, but we're gonna be laid back. Just go with the flow. And. And the funny thing is, I've noticed the more than the more they rush them, the slower they get. Right? So, like the other day, we bucked 40 some head of bulls in like two hours. Not even quick.

B (101:20)

It wasn't even dark yet.

A (101:21)

Yeah, you know, we went through all them and that was sorting them in the back, making sure the right ones, because not everybody showed up for the long run. So we had.

B (101:29)

And what happens if you don't show up?

A (101:32)

You don't come back. That was my rule. And, you know, I said, just laid back, you know, have fun. And that's. That's the one thing that matters. I've tried to. I try to tell all them young guys, you know, I said, yeah, you got to take care of business. I said, but got to have Same. You got to have fun at the same time. So you got one shot at this life and you don't get another one. Yeah. So you better make it count.

B (101:59)

So it'll be incredible. Competition, series.

A (102:03)

Yes.

B (102:04)

Televised broadcast. Can they just come out during the week and just like, are you going to run, like, practice?

A (102:11)

No. Yeah, that's what I tell. People are asking when you bug practice bulls. I said, whenever somebody calls me.

B (102:17)

So anybody can call you and just say, I want to come out.

A (102:19)

Yeah, them guys will come out tonight. How you want Bucks and bulls day. How many will get on? I'll have them batting the pants. Tell me what time you're coming, and I'll bug bulls. And usually I'll get Scooby or, you know, one of the bullfighters. Like, a Scooby's usually always around, and sometimes they're not around, and if they're not around, I'll do it.

B (102:37)

And you think the team thing. Like, you get it, but you. It's.

A (102:40)

I get it. But, you know, it was. It kind of went. It kind of went against everything I believed. Riding bulls.

B (102:47)

Yeah.

A (102:48)

You know, I believe riding bulls that I liked it because whether I was 90 or whether I was 0, it was all on my shoulders.

B (102:59)

Yeah.

A (103:00)

I couldn't blame anybody else. Couldn't blame the bull. You know, it was me. Nobody else calls me to ride that bull. Nobody else calls me to buck off of that bull. So everything. And that's what I liked. And, you know, when they first started coming up with the idea of the team series, I asked them, I said, I'm not going to rely on someone else to stay on their bull to make my living. I said, that's not how this works. Yeah. And, you know, they've changed it. Some guys like it, some don't. I don't guess. I mean. But it still boils down to the same thing. That's what I told the guys that were on the team that I was part of. You know, I said, it is a team. I said, but it still boils down the same thing. When you get in that bucket, shoot, you got to do your job.

B (103:45)

Yeah.

A (103:45)

Doesn't matter what your team did. You got to do your job well.

B (103:49)

And when you're practicing, it's like if you're. If you're playing any other sport, you're throwing a football, you're just kind of during practice, you can slow down. I'm assuming a practice ride is the same as a real. Like, there is no difference.

A (104:01)

There's no difference. Yeah. I mean, you. Some guys I'll get. I mean, there'll be.

B (104:04)

Is there a way to go easy during practice?

A (104:06)

Yeah, just weaker bulls.

B (104:10)

Yeah, but you just don't ride the

A (104:11)

big ones, you know, When I took the coaching gig that first year I was a coach, I was wrecking them poor guys out left and right. I had to back off. I started buying bulls I wouldn't have bought because I was always known. Like, before I started taking the. Or took the coaching deal, before I started it, the only thing I had standing around there, most guys didn't want to come get on because they were big and they were mean. I like mean bulls, and so guys didn't want to come there and get on. And, you know, when I took the coaching deal, I was like, I think I can kill these guys off. Like, I need these guys. And so I kind of had to. To pump the brakes a little bit and back off. And I. I bought some bulls that were just, you know, you call them just taters, you know, just good ones to get on that weren't mean, you know, weren't going to try to wreck you out when you hit the ground. And. And we're just honest, just good. And I got to think about it the other day I said, well, I'm. I'm not a coach anymore. So it's back to old school. We're gonna go. We're gonna go back to getting the big Brunos and the main ones again.

B (105:29)

So are most people calling you saying, will you coach my kid or will you?

A (105:33)

Like, I get. I get asked a lot to do bull riding schools and things like that.

B (105:38)

And what do you learn in school?

A (105:40)

Like what, the fundamentals? Pretty much. I mean, there's different schools that guys put on and do, and there's bits and pieces out of one that I would say a man could use. There's bits and pieces of the. You know, I've helped with a few and put some on, but the way I do it now is I try to price it to where they won't hire me.

B (106:07)

Yeah.

A (106:08)

And the one reason is, is I don't have a very good filter when it comes to riding bulls. Yeah. And if I do a bull riding school and you got 10 guys, 10 kids show up, there's going to be probably two there that actually want to be there for the right reasons and to actually get better, well, then you're gonna have probably five there that just say they wanted to come to your school just to say they went. And then you have three there that their parents are Living through them, and I cannot deal with it. I can't. I was never, not one day in my life was ever pushed to ride. You know, I was the only time I ever turned anything out, I was riding sheep. I mean, I was little. Like, I wrote sheep three to five, and they had the sheep riding towards the end of the rodeo, well, I'd been playing with all my friends and everything, and I got tired, and I didn't want to get on. I was little bitty and was tired, didn't want to get on. And my dad told me on the way home, he said, that's it. I said, what? He said, if you ever turn out again, we'll never come back. That's all he had to say. I never turned anything else out, ever. And, you know, it's just. Everything's different now.

B (107:30)

Is that so? I'm assuming that's how you're approaching it with Jagger. Like, he took.

A (107:33)

Oh, yeah.

B (107:34)

He took to it on his own.

A (107:35)

Yeah, he did. He want.

B (107:36)

He wouldn't be a professional bull rider.

A (107:38)

Oh, he depends on what day it is. He's probably Zorro right now.

B (107:43)

He is.

A (107:44)

He's on the zorro kick right now at the moment. The other day I came in, he's like, guess who I am? And now I have to go through about 12 different Western actors, figure out which one he's talking about. And, you know, he's on a zorro kick right now, and one day he'll be on a doc holliday kick, and then the next day's wide open, and the next day, I mean, he's a lone ranger. There's no telling. And some days he's all of them in one day. It changes out outfits about every 15 minutes.

B (108:16)

Awesome.

A (108:17)

And then he rides. He'll come over and ride his ponies, and he's playing like he's Zorro and just having a blast. And then one day he'll call me. I want to get on my calves. Okay. Because I'm not going to push him. I mean, it's his decisions, not mine. I was never pushed to do it. And, like, that. That. The school deal. Like, I. I've done a few, and I about got into it a couple times with some parents, and that's when I decided I was not gonna do it because I was gonna end up getting in a fight. Because, I mean, I'm like. I loved riding bulls.

B (108:51)

Yeah. That's all, you know, loved it.

A (108:55)

But I'm not pushing Jagger to do it because bull riding is not for everyone. And I'm not gonna make him do something that could end up getting him killed. Yeah, he's gotta want to do it, and he's got to love it. So it has nothing to do with my decision. You know, people say, do you want Jagger to ride bulls? I was like, it's not my decision. Oh, you're going to let him? You're going to let the sport that crippled you up and did all this and done that? And I said, yeah, the same sport that gave me everything I have to my name? Yeah. So you want me to tell my son not to follow in my footsteps and if he loves it, no, you can't do that because you might get hurt. I said, he doesn't live in a bubble like the rest of the kids in this world.

B (109:36)

Yeah.

A (109:37)

I said, you know, I don't care what he does as long as he does it with 110%. Yeah. I've told him, like, he'll get on them calves, and he's hit that ground pretty hard a couple times. And, you know, I don't baby him too much. Like, you know, that's the one problem. I think parents baby their kids too dang much, and then they're babied their entire lives. And then they get out in the real world and the answer is no, and they don't know how to deal with it. And I told Jagger the other day he was wanting something, and I said, well, buddy, you better learn right now. You can want all day long, but what you give maybe a lot different. I said, so you better work your ass off if you want things. And he hit that ground pretty hard and how easy I walked out there, and it knocked the air out of him. He's kind of. And I put my hand out and he grabbed it, stood him up. I said, yeah. He's like, yeah, that hurt. I said, kind of looked like it hurt. I said, see that gate over there? I know I can whine about it on the other side of it. I said, better get to walking then. Because I told him, I said, in that arena, you're the toughest person alive. Yep. Once you walked out of that gate, you can lay down and cry if you want to. It don't make a damn out there. I said, but in that arena, you get up, you walk out like nothing ever happens. I said, inside the arena, you're the toughest human on the face of the earth. As soon as you walk through that gate and close it, nobody can see you. You can do whatever you want to do, but, I mean, that was drilled into my head also. You know, you get up, walk out of the arena unless your legs are broken, and if they are, you better crawl.

B (111:15)

Is that still going on in the sport?

A (111:19)

Somewhat. Like, I mean, it's, it's weakened.

B (111:22)

What's like the cowboy code is like you have to take the reride and you have to walk out of there.

A (111:29)

Yeah, I mean, a lot of people don't take the re rise now. They play the odds on and the team deal. That, that was the, that was the hardest pill I had to swallow. Because in a team, it's not a sprint, it's marathon. You got five guys getting on. So 90% of time. If they wrote three out of five, you were going to win that game. Well, like the first week, I'm co. I was at an event in the coaching position. One of the guys rode and was like 76 or 78 points. And they're like, well, he's got the option of a reride. And we already had three rides. And the CEO of the team was yelling from the top of the back there at me because he knew what I wanted to do. And I was sitting there looking at him. They said, coach, what is it? And I was like, no. Somebody said, how painful was that for you? I was like, I lost all my pride. I was like, man, it just went against everything I ever believed. Like, if I had the opportunity to win, I was going to try to win. If they were going to give me another one to get on to win, I was going to get on that one to win. If I was like I told you earlier, if I was sitting second, you know, all you got to do is keep your score. Well, I didn't come here for second. Let's go for first.

B (112:54)

And that's just the only way you've ever done it.

A (112:56)

That's how I went about it. Everybody said, oh, he's a gunslinger. He's this, he's that. No, that's just the way I wanted to go about it. It was. I went at bull riding more with pride than I did anything else, you know, and it didn't have anything to do with the other people or anybody else. It had to do with me. I wanted to prove myself, to prove to myself that they didn't have a bull there that could throw me off. And no matter how hurt I was, I could still ride them.

B (113:26)

Do you realize, you obviously know that's like a unique way to live life.

A (113:31)

Oh, yeah.

B (113:32)

Like, you speak about it like, it's like, well, duh, this is what you would do.

A (113:35)

Yeah. And that's.

B (113:36)

Have you been like, was there. Is that just how God made you?

A (113:40)

I guess that's how I was made.

B (113:41)

I mean, because it's. It's like all the story is, is like the most focused person I've. One of the most focused people I've ever talked to.

A (113:49)

That's. You know, I. Everybody always asks me, what's the plan after. After bull riding? I said, so you want to know what plan B is? They're like, yeah. I said, make plan A work. Yeah. You know, that. That's. That was the reason I took the coaching deal in the first place. When they called, I was sitting at home in a neck brace, and I knew my bull riding career was over.

B (114:13)

Yeah.

A (114:13)

And I was thinking, what the hell do I do now? Yeah. Because, I mean, there was no backup plan for jb. I put all my eggs in that basket, and that's the way we went. And, you know, I. And that's why I took it, because I was like, man, what do I do now? And, you know, I was kind of. I was worried. I had wife, kid, and I was like, man, I can't. The only way I knew how to make a living for the past 20 years of my life is gone. And I was like, oh. And so I took the gig. And then. But now, like, you know, I couldn't do it anymore. It's like having a job.

B (114:51)

Is it?

A (114:53)

You had to.

B (114:54)

Yeah.

A (114:55)

I never was good at having a job, so, I mean, I would do it long enough to make sure I had some money stashed back, so I'd go ride bulls. And then if the bull riding didn't get. Didn't go so good, I'd go find another job.

B (115:08)

You have Bucktown. Is there anything left in the sport or is there anything else in the sport you want to be a part of? Like, is there any. Is there any unfinished business anywhere?

A (115:18)

Not really. I would. I would rather stay right there and put on bull runs.

B (115:23)

And real quick, on the. On. Stephenville is Stephenville the capital, the cowboy capital. Just because all the cowboys are there.

A (115:29)

Yeah.

B (115:30)

And it's just like the Mecca.

A (115:31)

Like, if you're gonna ever. Every corner you turn's got a rope just getting out.

B (115:36)

It was like rodeos going on everywhere.

A (115:38)

Everywhere. Yeah, there's. You know, it's. There's. There's not as many bull riders around there, but there. There's a lot of team ropers, things like that, that are around there, and calf ropers. And so there's an arena on every corner you turn.

B (115:53)

I think I told you I been following for a while, but it was the Bushwhacker video that I was like, dude, Katie, can I just go meet. I just want to be friends with jb.

A (116:03)

You know, when they. They. They gave him. What'd they call it? The PBR does? Like, it's called a brand of honor. Yeah. And then I guess he got it. He received it, and Kent had passed away. The handler, Julio, called me, and he goes, hey, at Vegas, they're giving him, you know, the brand honor. Would you talk about him? You know, besides Kent, you know him, you got only more times than anyone. And Julio and I are really good friends. And I immediately said, yes. Well, then the closer I got to time, and we were going to Vegas, I was sitting there thinking to myself, I said, I got to get up there and talk good about a bullet. Kicked my ass 12 out of 13 times. And if I'd have had to write him 8.2 seconds, he'd have kicked my ass 13 times. And I was like, man, I don't know how to do this. So I got up there, and they had him on the stage because, I mean, he was a pretty gentle bull. But I didn't realize till that day that his brand was 13. Oh, really? I never looked at it. I never. Because he's just always bushwhacker. So I never looked at his brand. And I was standing there, and I hadn't looked, and I seen his. Yeah. I said, julia, I said, is this brand 13? He said, yeah. Why? I said, I got on him 13 times, and that's what I told him on the mic. I said, you know, I said, julio asked me to do this, and I told him I would because we're friends. I said, but then I got to thinking about it. I got to get up here and talk good about a bull that's kicked my ass 12 out of 13 times. And it went pretty good, though. It was pretty cool deal, like, you know, but I didn't realize his brand was 13 till that day. I'd been on him I don't know how many times, and never looked at his brand.

B (117:48)

And why did you. Why did it end? When was the last ride? Did it just end because they retired him or just.

A (117:53)

You just. Just retired him? Nothing. I don't. He wasn't hurt. He just old. Just got older and. And.

B (118:01)

And on and. And how they move bulls around. Did you know when you would see him? Like, how many do they skip rodeos?

A (118:08)

Like, yeah, depending on parts of the country. You know, like if in the northwest you'll see a lot of the same bulls. Central, you'll see a lot of same bulls. East coast, you'll see them, you know, they'll sprinkle ones in and out of there. But the thing is, like him, you didn't. You wanted to haul him enough because he was in running for bull of the year, but you didn't want to haul him too much. Yeah, he's just like. Those bulls are just like the bull riders or athletes, you know, you do something every weekend. Yeah.

B (118:44)

It's kind of.

A (118:45)

And travel that many miles between each one of them, eventually you're going to need a little break. Yeah. You know, there's quite a few times when I was rodeo and we were Cheyenne, the bullet hit me in the face in the short round and it. It looked like you'd put a golf ball on my cheek right here. It broke my cheek and it just stuck out of there. My face was swelled up. I woke up next day and Samantha's like, what time do we got? What time we got to leave to go to New Mexico? I said, we can leave whatever time we want because we're going back to Stephenville. She said, why? I said, I need a break. Like I was beat all to hell. And so we came home. I stayed there a week, maybe two weeks, and then we left back out and drove all the way to Kennewick, Washington. First bull I got on, stepped on my face, stepped right here, knocked me out, tore my dang face all up, knocked some teeth out. I said, gosh damn. But I think a month after that was, I was in Iowa. The rodeo and bus stopped me both back feet and my belt line. And God. And I finally went to the same kind of deal. Went back to the room and about five o' clock in the morning I wasn't doing so good. And little bitty hospital there. And I went in and they asked me what happened. I said, well, I stepped on my back right at my belt line. They said, do you have any bruises? I said I wanted to go ahead and tell you I don't bruise for some reason a whole lot. I said, but I don't really know because I can't see my back. And they pulled my shirt up and they swear you got two red marks. As I'm telling you, I don't, I don't bruise. Yeah. And they did the same thing. They run a die through me and stuff. And I was bleeding out. God. Kidney was lacerated. They come in there freaking Out. They said, sir, we're life flighting you to Iowa City. I was like, for what? You're bleeding out right now. Your kidney's lacerated, and we're not set up for trauma like that. So once again, Samantha was in Ellensburg, her and Jagger with the rv. I guess I should have just skipped Ellensburg.

B (120:56)

Yeah.

A (120:57)

Because when I broke my neck, that's where she was at.

B (120:59)

Yeah.

A (120:59)

Last year, at my kidney, that's where she was at. So I was supposed to fly back that next morning to Ellensburg. And so Samantha wakes up. I sent her a selfie. While I'm on the life flight, hooked up to all that, I took a selfie and I sent it to her. And I was like, I'm not gonna make that flight back to Ellensburg. I'm on a little different flight. Well, by the time she wakes up, she calls me, flipping out. What the hell's wrong with that? And she just, you know, scared her. And that's what I lacerated my kidneys. She said, what's that mean? I said, I don't know. Surgeon's about to come in here and talk to me. I said, I'll call you back. They did another test when I got to Iowa City. Quit bleeding. He said, well, as long as it stays like that, Just stay in here till lunchtime tomorrow. We'll turn you loose.

B (121:47)

You know, the funniest thing about you is, like, you speak about all these times where you just totally destroyed something inside your body, and then it's like a surprise. It's like, peekaboo. You're like, most humans don't go through life ever once. Like, you know, when you're hurt, you just, like, I broke a rib. Nope. I'm bleeding out in my kidney. Like, probably a dozen times. Throughout your career, it was like a surprise by the time you got to the hospital.

A (122:12)

Oh, yeah. Like, I always thought, well. Well, I didn't know I'd. I found out I broke my leg when I blew my knee out. I blew my knee out, and they were messing my knee, and they messed my leg, too. And they said, when did you break your leg? I said, I didn't break my leg. They said, yeah, yeah. Well, no, I guess that's why that thing hurts all the time then. I guess that's why it's sore. But I don't know. I just. I always looked at it like, oh, I'm just sore. I'll be all right. You know, just keep on going. And there's no telling the amount of. I probably have Broke that I don't even know about.

B (122:48)

Oh, I'm sure. You know, I bet something's broken right now.

A (122:50)

Probably somebody I know my dang toe probably is. A horse stepped on it the other night and just stood on it. But that's what somebody said, man. You need to just get them to do a full body X ray and MRI of your body. And I was like, I don't want to know what's all going on. I said, it still works. I can get up, I can walk around. I can use my arms. I'm good. I was like, we'll just leave it alone. But that's what I. A lot of people say that, man. You just talk about it like it's nothing. I said, well, I mean, I realized, you know, when I bought last shred of my liver, it happened early, you know, my. I was barely. I was right before I turned 18.

B (123:35)

Yeah.

A (123:36)

So, like, I see a lot of kids, you know, 16, 17, 18 years old. You're invincible. Nothing can hurt you. You know, you. You know the dangers of riding bulls, but you still got a chip on your shoulder. Well, I realized it real fast and like, okay, if I'm going to do this, I better mean it. That's not a joke anymore. This is for real. And, you know, because when you're. You're 16, 17, like, that, you're not doing it to make a living. No, you're doing it because it's fun and you love doing it. And that was a turning point. When that. When he last shredded my liver and they told me all that, I realized right then. I was like, okay, if I. If I do this, I better mean it and do it for real.

B (124:17)

So when you said that the guys that were Bucktown, how many of those guys are on the, like, come up? Like, are they even. Are those all professionals, or is it just like an open. Like anybody that wants to get on a bull?

A (124:27)

Well, it's not. I mean, these guys have been on bulls. Like, there's gonna be some young. The couple of them guys that was there when you were there, they were young guys. They ride really good, have a lot of potential.

B (124:36)

The guy that won't, what, 21?

A (124:38)

Yep. Lacey.

B (124:39)

Yeah.

A (124:40)

And he rides bareback horses and bulls and rides really good. And he rodeos. He's going to bunch of PRCA rodeos. But, you know, like, next week or whenever the next one is, John Kramer's coming court, McFadden's coming case will be there again. Those guys are all on tour in the pbr.

B (124:57)

Yeah.

A (124:57)

And Then, you know, you got. You got some younger guys. You know, Daniel keeping. He's on. He's on tour in the pbr. He'll be there. Then I got some younger guys that we invited to come that. That ride really good, and I think would enjoy coming, like, everybody we talk to, because I, you know, would ask everybody, what'd you think of the board? And that was. That's the most fun I've ever had. You know, even the bull riders, that was so cool. Like, that's badass. Like, we had fun.

B (125:28)

Well, I've only ever watched it from the side, too, to see it from up above, looking.

A (125:31)

Oh, looking into the shoes. Totally.

B (125:33)

Well, and just watching. That's a totally different experience. I mean, it is chaos.

A (125:39)

Yeah. Them bucking shoes, that's what. Watching them in there, you. You. When you look down on them, you can see how muscled up they are, them bulls. Because, you know, standing back, looking at them, you can tell they're big, but you can't really see. You look straight down on them boys, back about that wide, big old shoulders on them, and they go to mashing on you. That hurts.

B (126:01)

And they're doing that. They're. They're. They're messing with you.

A (126:04)

Oh, yeah. Some of them, the young bulls, they. They just. They get fired up. You know, they're ready to go just as much as a guy is. So sometimes they'll go to bucking in there and hair triggered what we call it, you know, they'll. They'll kind of pull the trigger before it's time to go. But that's why a lot of guys send them to me, because that's what we work on. Get them to where they're calm and stay calm until the gate opens, which was like bushwhacker. He.

B (126:30)

That's like, you would always. You've said that multiple times. Like, he just didn't move in the shoot.

A (126:34)

No. And I kind of hated it.

B (126:36)

It was kind of his way of going, just wait. Yeah.

A (126:38)

It was like slapping you in the face. Like, okay, get wherever you want. I'll move wherever you need me to. Whatever. I'm still going to slam your ass. Yeah.

B (126:47)

That whole time you were tipping, you had your, like, piece of paper in there. When in Bucktown, when they're ready and you're just getting their chin up.

A (126:55)

Just. Some of them. Some of them, I wouldn't. You know, some of them, I stay back. But, like, you can tell them bulls, if they look at the back of the chute, you. You want them looking out. So if that gate opens, they don't turn out backwards, things like that. And I try to not use that paper as much, but I don't want to stick my fingers in there because boy got his finger cut off a couple weeks ago over there.

B (127:18)

Oh really?

A (127:18)

Horn, they smash your finger between that gate and that horn, your finger, you might as well just kiss it goodbye. I've seen a lot of guys get their finger just popped off.

B (127:28)

How many times did their horn get just stuck in there and break?

A (127:33)

Not very often. I've had a couple.

B (127:35)

You have to trim their horns.

A (127:38)

The regulation size is 50 cent piece on the end of their horns so they don't stab in you. Because their horns are like, like your fingernails or toenails. They continuous, they continually grow. So like.

B (127:52)

Do they bleed if they get torn off?

A (127:55)

Yeah, like when you, when you tip them, they'll bleed a little bit. Some of them, all of them are different. Some of them's got solid horns so you can tip them and there won't be anything. Some of them, you can tip them in the ends, you know, you cauterize them, close them back up. But it's, you know, that's what the horns are, man. You got to watch them because their horns hook to their sinuses. And so if they get a. Oh, you tip one and it's. We call it hollow. You get saline flush, stick it in that horn and flush it. It'll run out their nose.

B (128:34)

Oh really?

A (128:35)

Yeah, and that's how they get horn infections and stuff like that. So if you get one like that, we'll flush his horn like every day. Keep him on penicillin so no infection sets in. Keep flushing that horn and eventually it'll start growing the good tissue back in there and close itself back up.

B (128:53)

Do they have a peak age where they're just in their prime?

A (128:56)

Yeah, usually when they're three year olds, depending on their size. Is when you usually start putting guys on them? Yeah, that's when they're, they're kind of, they're developing, their muscles are getting big enough to hold the weight of a guy up. So about between three and four is when you put guys on them and their, their peak, like Holland, ages 5 to 7 probably some of them make it longer. Someone don't make it as long. It's kind of like, you know, athletes. How much wear and tear can you handle? Some bulls handle it way better. Some bulls, you know, don't.

B (129:32)

And it. And there. Is there any. Can you give them steroids or anything or. It has to be all natural.

A (129:39)

Yeah. They'll test. They'll test your.

B (129:42)

Born out of a cartoon.

A (129:44)

They'll test you so you can't.

B (129:46)

They have to be all natural to ride.

A (129:47)

Supposed to be, yeah, supposed to be. Yeah.

B (129:51)

Sometimes it happens.

A (129:52)

Yeah. I mean, like, I've gave them stuff, like, not steroids, but like, you know, like multivitamins, like that. We all the time give them that.

B (130:02)

Yeah. What do they eat every day? Just hay.

A (130:05)

Hay and grain. I got a special feed built for mine. I make a pellet out of the company.

B (130:12)

Is your goal to put these bulls in rodeos and have them be competing bulls? Do you have a goal with them, or is your goal to get them good enough and sell them to somebody else that might go do something with them?

A (130:25)

Bingo. Bingo. That's the industry, you know, like, that's when I broke my neck. Danny Reagan's a guy that lives in East Texas, and he owns a rodeo company. And before I had shoulder surgery, I went and worked a rodeo for him, picking up bucking horses. And he called me. He said, hey, since you broke your neck, you're gonna get. Said, you want to get you a set of pickup horses. Work my rodeos? I said, no. And he said, well, you want to be the bull guy on my card? That's what you mean? He said, I. I'll just put you on my card and you haul all the bulls to all my rodeos. I said, no. He said, why? I said, well, you just want me to be broke the rest of my life, man. I said, you can't make a living doing either. Yeah, you know, I said, I like staying at home, and I like working bulls. That's my thing. I like figuring them out, you know, being able to, like, you step off in there and you go in the. Load them. When you open that gate and you go to step in that pin, you got to be able to tell which one's going to come at you, which one's not going to mess with you. You got to be able to read them before you get in there. And, you know, that's the part I like. And, you know, I like getting them calm. And I. I always say everybody sends me their problem bulls, you know, bulls that are bad in the chute. Yeah, we can't do anything with him. Well, they'll send him over there, and we'll just. We'll work them every day. You know, we try to get them calm, and some of them, they flip the switch, and they're good. And then some of them, it takes longer, and some of them don't ever get out of it.

B (131:55)

But what's, is there, is it, is it a thousand different ways to calm them or is that all right?

A (131:59)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the way you work on this, like any animal, the slower you work them, the quieter you work them, the calmer they stay. Yeah. And you know, you go to hooping and hollering and moving too fast, it ralls them up, they get fired up and they go to tearing gates down and things like that. So. And that's what I've told Jagger. I said when you're around here, I said, just calm and easy, buddy. I said, don't be hollering and carrying on, just slow and easy. And you know, it's, it's funny because sometimes you don't listen so good. But when he's over there and I'm working bullets, he lists everything. I say, stay right here and don't move. Yes, sir. Because he knows, like I'm telling him that for a reason, make sure you don't get hurt. And because it's pretty easy. Like I've told him, that's when you come over here. I said, you better pay attention. Because one knocks a gate open, better be paying attention, you know.

B (132:54)

So what time do you wake up in the morning?

A (132:56)

Just depends, like.

B (132:58)

Well, we don't count today.

A (133:02)

If I'm in the bed at 7 o' clock in the morning, I'm.

B (133:10)

I'll slip in and then you're getting up.

A (133:13)

Usually I, I get up about him. A normal day between 5, 30, 6, 30, like I, I don't even set an alarm anymore because I can set an alarm in 15 minutes before it goes off. I wake up and it's like clockwork,

B (133:30)

you know, it's like that mental thing. Do you eat breakfast?

A (133:34)

Sometimes, but most time not. So Samantha and Jagger, they'll still be asleep and I leave. So there's a little country store, the BNB country store, and I'll pull in there and I go sit in there and I finally got me a rain gauge. So I get to talk to the, the man that owns it and the farmers around there about how much rain it got and give me a big old cup of coffee. And some mornings I give me a sausage basket, some days I don't.

B (133:58)

So what time are you at the spa?

A (134:01)

Do it.

B (134:02)

What time are you at the farm?

A (134:03)

Oh, I'm usually there by 7:30, 8 o'.

B (134:06)

Clock. Do you have a routine? Like as soon as you get there, you know exactly what you're doing that day or Is it kind of like what today got?

A (134:12)

Yeah, I pretty much. I'll have a plan in my head of what I want to do and what order I'm going to do it. So usually I'll get there and Genaro, he'll be feeding, and I'll go in the office, go through papers and crap, get everything ready and make sure everything's straightened out. Wait on him to get finished feeding. Once he's finished feeding and we start, either work this set of bulls or turn the this set into a bigger pen. Let them exercise, move around, play. Or if we got to run something through a shooting doctor on me, whatever needs to be run. In the past week, we've made trips back and forth from the vet because I got to take some bulls to the. It's the T and J Buckenstock sale. It's a bull sale in Texarkana, and it's the 22nd, 23rd, and I've got to take 29 bulls there. We got to get all the health papers, all that stuff on them. So always back and forth from the vet, you know, taking loads, dropping them off, testing them, picking that one up, taking another load, dropping them off. So you take them one day, they do all the testing, and then like two days later, you got to take them back so they can read it. And so that's what we were doing last week, pretty much all week. And of course, one bull that I put in the sale, he was fine. I consigned him to that sale, and the next day was cripple, just like, I'll cut his foot on something, ain't no telling what it was. But I got him up, he'll be fine by the time the sale comes.

B (135:49)

You just can't.

A (135:50)

That's.

B (135:50)

That's either live animals, they're.

A (135:53)

And I guess about like anything else, the good ones, you might as well put them in bubble wrap and they'll get. They'll still get hurt. Yeah, a sorry one. No, you could turn them out and a pasture full of barbed wire just laying everywhere and they wouldn't get a scratch on them.

B (136:13)

Isn't there something called like the acci or something? It's like a bucking.

A (136:17)

It's all the Abbi.

B (136:19)

Abbi.

A (136:19)

Yeah.

B (136:20)

Do you do that? And that's basically competition of. You just buck your bulls. There's nothing. There's nobody on them. But it's how.

A (136:26)

Well, they do have rider competitions also. Oh, they do. They're called classics. So they would be the American bucking bull. Yeah, whatever.

B (136:36)

You do that.

A (136:37)

The Registry and everything. No, I don't, I, I mean if I come across a calf like a 2 year old that I think could go win, I would, you know, send in his blood, get all the lined out and that way I could enter him in that. So they got yearling for charities, they've got two year old for sureties and then classic bulls are like three to four year old bulls and you enter your bull just like a bull rider would enter. So they pay his competition. But for a guy to go and win one like a two year old futurity, you better have a double rank ungodly bucking Samagun to compete with Bart Few trail and HD Page. Like it's not, they're, they're on point when they come and Brandon Stewart, Brandon Stewart's got a bunch of them. Like you better have the top of the line like this son of a gun better be short round material with a dummy at two years old or you're not going to place. So I don't really mess with those. They're going to have one, they're going to have a classic at the house. So at your place. They did them last year. Jay, the President A.B. i asked me if they could do them there. I said yeah. He said do you want to hire the back, back pen help or you want me to hire it? I said, I said you hired. I said because this is your bull riding. It's just at my place so I don't have to do a damn thing but sit around and drink beer. So you know the next bug jams the 18th and April 1st.

B (138:28)

Okay.

A (138:29)

We'll have it within the, the Abbi classic is the 4th. They're going to have it on April 4th and then the 15th, the next 15th and then 27th will be the, the other two buck jams in April and then we'll have two in May.

B (138:45)

And the final one is the, the final one in May is the championship.

A (138:49)

Yeah, pretty much. We're just, it's just the same, it's the same as all the other one. It's just whoever's got the highest average out of all six of them will get a $20,000 bonus.

B (138:58)

And do you have to have competed in all six to make it to the final? How many do you have to compete in a minimum amount of them.

A (139:06)

Not right now. Because the guys at rodeo. Yeah, like that's the problem because rodeos are, you know, like Fort Worth. You can be up a Tuesday, Wednesday night.

B (139:14)

Yeah.

A (139:15)

You know there's another young guy. No Lee Mike Lee's son rides really good. We'd. He was originally supposed to ride this coming Wednesday. And he called me, you know, I think it was yesterday or day before and said, man, I'm not going to be able to be able to come Wednesday. They. They put me up in Mercedes on Wednesday. And I said, man, don't worry about it. Thanks for letting me know. But I said. And he said I should be able to come to the rest of them, though. I said, all good, man. Like I'm not. Like I understand things like that. At least he had enough respect to call me and tell me, not just not show up like the other ones did. You know, that kind of irritation.

B (140:00)

We have them on a list.

A (140:01)

Yeah, there's a blacklist for that list, for that one. Gotta use blacklight to read it.

B (140:07)

I want to come to the one on the first. Come on, it's April Fool's day. Are you gonna do something?

A (140:12)

I don't know. I don't know. We gotta figure that out. I was thinking about that too.

B (140:17)

Yeah?

A (140:19)

Yeah. I thought about having like a, you know, spring breaks this coming week.

B (140:24)

So that's why I can't go this week.

A (140:26)

Yeah, I thought about having like a wet T shirt contest, but my wife probably wouldn't like put a hard no on that. Yeah, I was gonna let her be the judge and everything.

B (140:36)

That. That just didn't make it through the committee.

A (140:39)

Yeah, that. That didn't make it past hr.

B (140:45)

So you bake it to the very end. That'll be the first series. And if things go well, this could obviously a season two. And this picked up.

A (140:52)

Oh yeah.

B (140:53)

Because the social media around it is unbelievable.

A (140:55)

We've already had guys calling us, wanting us to. Yeah, go put them on like at other places. Hey, I want to do yalls bull riding. Our deal.

B (141:06)

I was going to say you'd have to move it out of. It couldn't be there the whole time.

A (141:10)

Not the whole time. But that's what I told Randy. I said, if everything goes like we want it to go. I said. Then we started another series. Bucktown on the road.

B (141:19)

Yeah, Bucktown roadies.

A (141:22)

Yeah. And that's what I said. I like Buckingham here at the house because we don't have to go anywhere.

B (141:28)

Yeah. And most people brought in. Those weren't all yours. People were bringing them in too. Nice lady, she was standing up top. Her husband. I can't remember her and her husband. She had a son that was Jagger's age.

A (141:41)

Brandon and Kenzie Stewart.

B (141:43)

Yeah, they were great.

A (141:44)

He doesn't live very far at all. Yeah. And that's the good thing about being in Stevenville. All those guys that brought bulls, none of them drove over past an hour and a half to get there.

B (141:57)

And then they just take them to their house that night and that was it. That's just life. Bring your bulls.

A (142:03)

Take your bulls. Yep.

B (142:05)

The thing I kept looking back at is the way y' all must have had them fenced off. Everybody news whose bulls?

A (142:10)

Who?

B (142:10)

I mean.

A (142:10)

Yeah.

B (142:10)

It gets dark, there's 30 black ones. How do you know those are yours? I guess it's the brand.

A (142:17)

Brands. Yeah. Never mind. But I had them all stagged. Like that's before. Before you got there and everything. That's why, that's why I was so hot sitting in that office when y' all got there.

B (142:27)

You were out of breath when we got in there.

A (142:29)

I had been sorting them both, stacking them in, which pins they went in. And because you got to kind of pay attention, you got to have a list.

B (142:35)

What?

A (142:36)

Because I'll ask them guys when they're bringing bullets. Well, send me your list. Tell me which deliveries and which bulls will pin together that way. Because you put three bulls in a pin and add a fourth one to him that don't pin with them. And there's going to be some messed up around there because they don't intentionally tear up. It's when they go to fighting with each other, they're so big they'll just push through crap.

B (143:03)

And do they usually do well when they're around bulls they're familiar with. Are you like, would you put two strangers together?

A (143:11)

Probably not, right? At a bull riding. Yeah. You know, like you try to mix them together before you go anywhere. Like at the house, if I got a new one that I think, you know, he doesn't. Doesn't act like he wants to fight because you can tell. You can put them in a pin next to another bull.

B (143:26)

Yeah.

A (143:26)

And see if they fight through the fence, whatever. But you know, and then I'll try to mix them with them other bulls and I put them in a small trap, kind of let them mangle around, see if they're gonna fight. And sometimes they'll push on each other and they kind of figure out the pecking order and then, then I just turn them out and they're pretty good. Then it's. It's like having a 17, 1800 pound three year old children that can kill you that want to just tear every damn thing up. Those fences out there. That's what I told Somebody said, oh, well, those fences out there. I said, those fences don't stop. Yeah, that's what you mean. I said, they just respect it. I said, if they wanted through that fence, hey, let them say the next county over by now, I said, that's not stopping them. They respect it. You know, if they want to do every one of them, go walk up to it and jerk and mangle at some all over the place and then just keep going.

B (144:22)

Is that probably why you love the sport so much, is because you respect the bull as. Probably as much as it respects you?

A (144:29)

Oh, yeah.

B (144:30)

Do all the riders respectables for the most part, some people. Are they just animals that I have to get on or is it. Is it kind of a.

A (144:37)

Well, a lot, A lot of. A lot of guys now, like, you could tell some of the guys, hey, go load that bull. They wouldn't know how to do it. Why? Just, you know, they're more athletes that ride bulls. Yeah. You know, a lot of them do know, like. And I. I think your better riders are the ones that do know. Yeah. Because. And I've told Jagger, like Jagger talking about fighting bulls, you know, and he's got a little bull fighting dummy. Kai had it made for him. And I get out there and it's. It's got like a bull head on the front of it and it looks like it's got wheelbarrow, like handles. It's got one wheel and I chase him around with it, you know, And I told him, I said, you need to learn. Like, he was. Won't do tricks like all them, the guys that freestyle do. And I told him, I said, you don't do all the tricks, bud. I said, you got to learn the right way first. And so I was showing him and I said, you know why this is important? He's. I said, if you're not scared, scared of them standing in front of him, you're damn sure not scared of them on their back. Yeah. You know, and I wasn't no great bullfighter or anything like that, but I wasn't scared of them, you know, I'd. When we'd buck practice bulls and stuff like that, like, I'd step around them, get their attention and stuff like that and. But, you know, I wasn't no Cody Webster, nobody like that, you know, or I wasn't as good as the guys that were fighting bulls the other day at the house. But I could, I could get by. I could make it work. But that was the thing, I wasn't scared of them.

B (146:18)

And what makes Them good is like, they can anticipate what the Bills bulls gonna do, but they're willing to get, like, close enough to them because, dude, I mean, you're watching. It looks like it's. That's a game of inches, too.

A (146:29)

Oh, yeah.

B (146:30)

But for most, it's like, they always miss. Every now and again, you'll see one get trampled.

A (146:34)

That's. That's the thing. Good bull fighters, you don't really notice them.

B (146:37)

Yeah.

A (146:38)

Because they're smooth. They slip in, they slip out, you know? Yeah. They get the bull's attention and they're gone. And if you're not paying attention, you don't even really notice them.

B (146:48)

But their job is as soon as you've hit dirt or as soon as they see you coming off, there's three of them. Right. Always. Well, and they all know their spots.

A (146:58)

Yeah. They work in, like a triangle. And they all rotate the same way.

B (147:05)

Yeah.

A (147:05)

Yeah. Like, one will get. One will hit that bull's head, get his attention, and if he keeps going, the next one will grab him and then on, on and on. But they. They. You can tell Clay and Colton Scoob, they've. They've been fighting those bull runs at the house together because they work good together.

B (147:26)

Is there a best of all time?

A (147:29)

There is.

B (147:30)

I can put you in trouble by making you say it.

A (147:32)

I don't know. I'm friends with all them guys. You know, like, in rodeo, Dusty Tuckness, he's won I don't know how many bullfighter of the year awards they call him. It's voted okay by the boat, by the bull riders.

B (147:50)

So you vote.

A (147:51)

And that's the thing about the, like the NFR and the PBR finals. Those bullfighters have to be voted in.

B (148:00)

Really?

A (148:00)

The riders vote who they want.

B (148:04)

How do you even know? Like, if you were. If you had never seen the bull riders before and you just wrote a road, one ride, would you know in that eight seconds plus however long you're in the arena, who is the best bullfighter? Like, are you seeing it real time, or is it usually watching video after

A (148:22)

where you're seeing what could see them a little bit? But sometimes it's like hearing things, hearing music. Sometimes I could, sometimes I couldn't. You know, just if everything's going right, then it's smooth and just flowing along. You can kind of hear stuff. But if you're a little out of shape and everything's behind, it's a damn dog fight. You don't hear shit. And, you know, I've. I'VE seen them bullfighters. I've talked to them. You know, when the whistle blows and I grab my tail, if they couldn't get a bull to jump out of the spin, they would be talking to me like, hey, go ahead, jb. We got you. I'm like, all right, here I come. And, you know, like, I. I got a lot of them in racks, though, because my horrible dismounts. And I got. I got a video somewhere of Dusty Dougness and Cody Webster. Like, those two are pretty much top of the pile right now. But, I mean, you got the three guys that were at the house. Claymore, Cole, Carlisle, Scooby. They're all jam up. It's hard to decipher who's the best. And, you know, they're all good. And there's even more than that. There's a bunch of young guys that fight bulls really good. And. But we were at. I think it was Cody, Wyoming, and I got through off, and I knew when I was coming off that I. I was probably going to land right in front of him. And when I hit, I felt the bull and I felt somebody else. So I knew somebody was getting hooked on top of me. And, well, when everything cleared in that bull run, I roll up, Dusty rolls up, and we're looking at each other about. From me to you sitting on the ground. I said, hey, Dusty. He said, hey, jb. We just got up and walked out of the way. Like, it was funny because it was like every other rodeo, we both, like, I got him in a wreck. Yeah. He's like, well, yep, there's one down. We should be good next week, you know.

B (150:29)

Well, it's one thing to get bucked off and you're holding on and, you know you're screwed. Then there's probably. You get bucked off, and before you even know what's going on, you can feel it.

A (150:38)

Oh, yeah.

B (150:39)

And then there's probably. Sometimes where you bucked off, maybe you think you're safe. And then that bull comes back, like, comes out of left field and just smashes you again.

A (150:46)

Yeah, some of them bulls get smart there. And, you know, like I said, they're smart. Some of them know exactly who was on their back and. And they can decipher who's the bullfighter and who was the bull rider. Yeah, I've seen bulls do that. Run right by a bull fighter that was trying to get his attention, never even look at him and go right for the bull rider. I've seen them do that. Like, they're pretty smart. Some of them, I was unfortunately the. The victim of one that knew exactly who was on his back because I hung to him for a long time. They couldn't give me loose. Like, yeah, I was in a pretty good bit of a bind. And I finally did come loose. And when I. When I did it, I was out in the middle of this arena like I was in no man's land. And I looked back over my shoulder. When I finally come loose, I got up and started jogging. I looked over my shoulder, the bull was at the out gate to go out of the arena, and there was 10 or 12 people standing between us. It was. It was a long enough wreck. People were coming off the back of the bucking shoes to come try to help me, try to help give me loose because bullfighters couldn't get me. And so I'm thinking, bull's going out of the arena. He was by the outgate. I'm like, oh, okay. And I'm. And he had stomped my legs. My legs were beat all the hell. And I was kind of jogging, and something told me to look behind me and I'm out in the middle of this arena, kind of just jogging off. And I look over my shoulder. They said, he ran around people just to get you. And there he was. And I look, I take off running and I realized, like, I'm high stepping now, I'm trying to get some going. And I was like, I'm not gonna make it anywhere before he catches me. So I just slowed down and took it. And when I slowed down, he ran his head right up under my ass and throw my ass down 10 or 12 foot in the air. I hit the ground and as soon as he hooked me, turned and we

B (152:46)

got out and walked right out of

A (152:47)

his way of saying he was done. And I've had bulls do that. They act like they're mean as hell. Hit one person and then just trot out, turn, turn and walk out like a dog. Like, just general as I'll get out, walk right out of the gate. They just want to hit one person and then they just turn and walk out.

B (153:06)

They.

A (153:06)

But that's what. When. When he threw me up in the air and I hit. When I went to get up, when somebody got a hold of him, he's like, yeah, all right. I said, I'm glad that's over with. Gosh damn. They said, well, he ran around people to come hook you, because that's where they. I asked him, I said, when I looked back, he was on the other side of y' All. Yeah, at the out gate. And then I looked back over my shoulder and he was right behind me. And I said, yeah, he ran around. I said he didn't want to hook the one of 12 people back there that he has. He hadn't touched at all. But he ran me down and hooked me again after he'd done been stomping me for about 25 seconds because it was a kind of a bad deal.

B (153:52)

You've ridden how many times, how many bulls you think you've ridden? How many rides? Thousands. Is there one that stands out? Like, is there one ride that maybe you would want to do over? Or maybe it was the one that you crush? Like, is there one that stands out

A (154:06)

or is there a moment, the one that holds the most weights? Bushwhacker. Yeah. You know, I'm not saying his best ride ever made or, you know, that's right.

B (154:16)

You ever made.

A (154:17)

I don't. There's a couple of them. I think a couple of the bruiser rides were pretty good. And what I define as one of my best rides wouldn't be what you would think some of them, just because of the way that. The way I wrote them, like, I wrote a bull of hds and they called him Buck Autism.

B (154:43)

Buck Autism.

A (154:44)

And before I got on him, he had been manhandling everybody that had got on him. And I got in time with him, and I think I was 91 points on him. And, you know, somebody messaged me the other day and said, man, that ride of you on buck autism popped up. He's like, I forgot how rank that was. And from the video angle, you can't. Like, if you look it up on YouTube, the first couple of angles, you can't really tell he's bucking that hard. Yeah. Because they're kind of up, so you can't see how high he's kicking and things like that. And then. Then they show a third angle, and it's straight on at the bucking shoot, and you can see, like, this thing and his nose is touching the ground, and he is just straight up and straight down when he was bucking. And I got in time and. And the best part was when the whistle blew, I pulled my tail and I just stepped right off on my feet and walked. Like, I just stepped out of the pickup. And that's what HD told me. I walked back to. He said, good ride, but, man, you could at least got off hard. And it didn't ever happen that much like that. But my. Like, I pulled my tail. I felt it all Come loose and my. That pinky come out of my handle. So I knew it was going to come out, and I just picked my leg up and he kicked, and I just stepped off right beside him and just walked and I threw my hat and kept walking. And that's what, like, I watch.

B (156:14)

Yeah, I haven't seen that. I'm gonna go watch that one.

A (156:18)

It's buckholtism. Like, the dismount's the best part, really. Like, I felt like I wrote bulls pretty decent, but I was always pumped when I made good dismount, I was like, look, that's smooth right there. It didn't happen very often. Usually it was a wreck, but I don't know. There's a few bulls in that listed bushwacker. Always be the top.

B (156:40)

It will be the best.

A (156:41)

Yeah.

B (156:41)

Was that your high score ever?

A (156:43)

Yes.

B (156:43)

What was that? 93 and a half, 94.

A (156:46)

It was somewhere around there. I don't know. Yeah, okay. You know, that one meant the most because I've been on here so many times and.

B (156:56)

And, dude, it was close.

A (156:57)

Oh, yeah.

B (156:58)

I mean, you.

A (156:58)

Like you said 8.1.

B (157:01)

It was right on the nose.

A (157:02)

I mean, oh, for 13.

B (157:06)

And that's what nobody ever wrote him after that, or. Did anybody ever write.

A (157:11)

No. Yeah. They asked me when I retired him. Someone said, oh, I bet you you feel bad. You know, you hate seeing them retire Bushwhacker. I was like, no, I don't. I don't have to get on him anymore. I can start winning more money now because it just. I back myself in the corner. Is what happened with him. Like, I picked him. I couldn't. I couldn't say no, because I was the type, like, if I got on one, he bucked me off. I wanted him the next day. Yeah. You know, I might have to wait a week, but I want to get on him the next day to prove. To prove that I figured him out. You know, he may have got me one time, but we'll figure him out the second time with that one. That's. I just kept telling that I'll figure him out. Geez, I'll figure him out. And when I did ride him that night, I. I'd said all kinds of game plans on staying forward, staying out over him. Oh, and the night I wrote him, I said, hell with it. I'm just gonna nod and go with it, and whatever happens, happens. And it worked well. And, yeah, that was. A person asked me. Pitcher said they retired him. I said, nope, not at all.

B (158:23)

That is a. Like, that is a bull I wanted to see.

A (158:26)

Retired. Yeah, I'm glad he went out on top and he's not hurt or anything like that, but yeah, I'm very happy he's done. I'd have probably had to keep picking him if I had kept bucking.

B (158:38)

They've let you keep picking him.

A (158:39)

Oh, yeah.

B (158:41)

But once you've got him, you just. Or you wrote him two more times after.

A (158:44)

No, I tempted.

B (158:45)

Were you kind of trying to be a little like, I'm gonna get him twice now, obviously.

A (158:49)

Well, yeah.

B (158:50)

Did you pick him the next two times or did you draw him?

A (158:53)

I picked him where I was sitting in the. The round. The only way I could have won the event was to be 94 or 5 points. I had to pick him. You know, I was trying to win the event. It didn't really any. It didn't have to do with him specifically. Like after I wrote him, then I was, you know, if I needed him to win an event, you know, be enough points. That's what I picked.

B (159:18)

The one thing I didn't ask, I just said, is it possible for a bull? Well, maybe I didn't even ask. Can a bull get a 50?

A (159:27)

That'd be pretty hard.

B (159:28)

Can a guy. Can a rider get a 50?

A (159:32)

That's right. The PBR. I don't. Well, they're scoring systems all weird. They go into the intense. Yeah, Yeah. I think that's.

B (159:40)

Can't even do that math

A (159:44)

they came up with a while back. Rob rider over bull.

B (159:52)

Okay.

A (159:53)

So. And I asked somebody, I said, I don't see how that works. That's what I mean. I said, if I get on a 21 point bull and I ride him dead perfect, don't spur him, don't do anything fancy. Just sit up there, write him down. Perfect. Just easy. Dead. That's a 21 ride on a 21 point bull. I said, now if I get on that 21 pointer and you know, I'm sparring him and showing him I'm in control. Yeah. I could see being 22 or 22 and a half on a 21 point bull. I said, but I've watched some score people four points higher than the bull. I said, how can you be four points better than the animal you're on? I said, it makes no sense to me.

B (160:42)

That's. You answered my question. So it's symbiotic. You can't be a 50 point rider on a 40 point bull.

A (160:49)

Nope.

B (160:50)

By. By definition it would be impossible.

A (160:52)

Yep.

B (160:53)

What's the spread that. What's like the spread that Makes the most sense. A point or two points.

A (160:58)

Yeah, like, like if I get on a bull and just dominating, I could see you being a point and a half, two points higher than the bull because you just dominated him. Yeah, but I, like, I've seen them mark guys 3 and 4 points better than the bull they're on. And I say, I don't even see how that works. Like, well, you spurn them with both feet. Like, like, I don't get it. And because you're only as good as the animal you're on. Right. You know, so if you don't do anything fancy, you shouldn't be marked higher than your bull. Like, if you just make your ride and get off and that should be. Whatever the bull score was, should be identical, you know. And if you get a little out of shape, then your score goes down, you know. But the way they've got it now, I don't know, it's. I don't know if it's a way to justify higher scores. Like, I don't know.

B (161:50)

So, Bucktown, you have two judges. Is the score of. Is the score just an average of the two? That's how. And then the pbr, it's three judges or is it four? So it's just the average of the four. I would love to see what. Do you ever get to see how all four judges judged it?

A (162:05)

Oh yeah.

B (162:06)

I've looked at every big swings there.

A (162:08)

Like. Oh, yeah, yeah. I've had big swings when I was riding. Cost me winning an event. One time all the judges had the bull mark to be. It's 22 and a half, 22 point bull. One judge had him mark to be a 19. Cost me from winning the event.

B (162:29)

Wait, you're saying 21 and 19.

A (162:31)

How do you get. Well, they each judge. Oh yeah. You, you mark the bull.

B (162:36)

Two judges are person, two judges are bull. Are they?

A (162:39)

Well, they, they all judge the same each. They judge the bull and the rider.

B (162:44)

I gotcha.

A (162:45)

But it's, it's 1 to 25 because if you like at my house.

B (162:53)

Oh yeah.

A (162:54)

You got 1 to 25 for the bull, 1 to 25 for the rider from each judge.

B (162:59)

Oh, that's how you.

A (163:01)

Yeah, for two judges, you add them together. Four judges, you average them. I gotcha. I think that's how the people.

B (163:09)

And you've seen big swings.

A (163:11)

Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean it. Human error. It's going to happen. Yeah. But the way the PBR set up with the replay system and things like that, they shouldn't make mistakes.

B (163:22)

So that do the judges have to put their scores in after the replay system or. They put them in, then they replay.

A (163:29)

Like if. Like they. They have to put them in right after the. Then you replay it and then if somebody calls for a replay, then they replay it and sometimes they, you know.

B (163:41)

Do they ever move it?

A (163:43)

No, no. The replay is strictly for, like, if you slapped a bull or a bull fail or, you know, if you're trying to get a rewrite or something like that, but they don't ever change the scores. Yeah, because I've been on the back end of those replays before, too.

B (164:01)

Yeah, you've seen them. It's gone for you both ways.

A (164:04)

Oh, yeah. Cost me about 1.3 million one year.

B (164:08)

So does one team challenge the. Oh, it did,

A (164:13)

yeah. They said I slapped a bull in the short round at the World Finals.

B (164:15)

And you didn't?

A (164:17)

It was close, but I didn't touch him because.

B (164:19)

Is that your word against it or was it on video?

A (164:23)

You can look at the video.

B (164:24)

Is it on YouTube?

A (164:26)

I don't know if it is or not. I can't find it.

B (164:31)

But you can tell there's a gap.

A (164:34)

The angle they watched it from, you couldn't tell whether there was a gap or not. They wouldn't watch it.

B (164:38)

Which means they have to give you the benefit.

A (164:41)

The way the rule book states, if the clock says eight, no judge stopped the clock. If they call for a review on their own, it has to be conclusive evidence to overturn the call in the arena. And so they said it before the short round. I had to be over 90, win the short round. Two other guys get bucked off for me to win the world. Well, I was before the other two guys. I had a bullet hds and I wrote him clock. You know, I knew it come close, but I didn't slap him. Like I'd tell you. I'd be the first one to tell you if I did or not. And I didn't slap him. Whistle blows I get off, I throw my hat and everything, pick my stuff up. They call for a review for their on their own. The replay judge watched it twice from the same angle above it said, no score for I barely even got out of the arena. They had me marked to be 94 and a half. The other two guys that were in the running, they both got bucked off. I was one mad son of a gun.

B (165:51)

Oh, man.

A (165:53)

And me and a certain someone had a discussion about it and I told him, I said, I've watched y' all watch stuff in five, six, different angles, you know, all week out here for a guy to be 85 points. I said, I had a million dollars in a gold buckle riding on that one ride. And he watched it twice from the same angle. And he said, well, I watched it back when it was over with. And I said, how many times? He said, I'll watch it back, you know, four or five times. And I said, well, he said, I think you slapped him. That's why I'm glad you said that. He said, well, I said, because you read your rule book lately. He said, what do you mean? I said, plainly states in your rule book whatever the. The clock says in the arena, whatever the arena, the call in the arena was, has to be conclusive evidence to overturn it. And I said, last time I checked, that clock said eight. And I said, if you watched it four or five times and think I slapped him. I said, how's the replay, Joe? Supposed to watch it twice from that same angle. And no, I slapped him. What?

B (166:57)

They say it's over.

A (166:58)

Not a damn word. Sorry, Nothing.

B (167:01)

What year was that?

A (167:02)

16,

B (167:05)

which you didn't even talk about this. You won 13.

A (167:07)

15.

B (167:09)

You said 14 sucked.

A (167:11)

Yeah.

B (167:12)

Was that the only time in your career you just kind of lost it?

A (167:16)

Not really. I mean, there was a couple years. A couple different years I'd had, you

B (167:23)

know, is it more injury stuff or is it just like somewhat you just don't got it.

A (167:28)

Just fighting your head and then injuries build up. And I was always one. Like that was the hard part for me was to make it through a whole year healthy. I wouldn't stop going. I would be there all year, but I'd just be beat all the hail.

B (167:44)

Yeah.

A (167:44)

You know, and then I'd get to Vegas and when. When they had the finals at Thomas and Mac and somebody, when I made the NFR there, one of the other bull riders said, man, younger guys, you always wrote good in the Thomas and Mac. I said, evidently you're only remembering the good years. And I said, it went one of two ways in Vegas. I either rode really good and won a pile of money or I got wrecked out the entire time. There was no, I didn't. I never went to the finals and just did okay. Yeah, it was either I was. It was top or bottom. There was no in between for me. I either rode really good and I won a pile or I got wrecked out the entire time. Well, and that night I split the round. The first round at the nfr, first NFR I'd ever been to Kai, and I split First I walk in the locker room at night, and Boudreaux, boy, I guess it's going to be a good week. The next night, Bo hits me in the head, knocks me out. I'm dragging beside him, stomps piss out of me. They put stitches right here. Stitches beside this. Five staples above this ear. And I ended up. My groin was tore off my pelvis. I'd ripped it off, dude. And I walked back in the locker room after they'd sewed my head up and everything, and Boudreaux was sitting around looking at him. I said, see, I told you there's no in between. See that I'm on top or I'm getting wrecked out the whole time. And I went from winning first to, like, dead last. People text me, are you still alive?

B (169:30)

Yeah.

A (169:31)

And I finished the week out, though. That was the second bull. I got on eight more bulls that week, but I didn't ride any of them. I was trying, but that was kind of one of my deals. Like, even Cody Webster, he's like, man, you think you ought to sit out a couple rounds? I knew I didn't know exactly what was wrong with my growing at the time. I knew something was bad wrong with it.

B (169:51)

But that was another one of those surprise moments for you.

A (169:55)

And Cody's like the bullfighter, he goes, you think you ought to take a round or two off? I said, yeah, you think it's going to heal in a round or two? I said, probably get worse. Probably get tight. And I said, I know I'm putting you guys in a bind because I couldn't run. I had. I mean, I couldn't mash with it. I couldn't do anything with it. And so it was a slight snowballs chance in hell I was gonna make the whistle because I couldn't hardly. Like, I'd mash with it and it just give out. And I said, but, man, I know I'm putting you on a bad position because I, you know, I'm not moving very fast when they hit the ground. I said, but, hell, Cody, I said, I've never moved very fast when I hit the ground. I said, I came here to get on 10 bulls, and I'm getting on 10 bulls no matter what. And he said, okay. And, you know, I've watched guys. I've seen guys at the NFL National Finals Rodeo set out for, you know, a slight tear in something. I'm like, where's a pride? Like, this would be the last place I would ever turn a bull out, no matter what. Like, I Mean, I would have to be just some sort of bad, bad hurt not to get on there. That's just how I was like, you know, if I entered somewhere I thought I was obligated to go, I wasn't going to turn out hardly. And like, they're like, I want to prove like, I'm a tough son of gun, you know, it's an NF4, man, you know, like, heck, yeah. And I see guys turning out and that them boys were like, man, you're still getting on. I'm like, like, yeah, yeah. San Francis Finals Rodeo.

B (171:34)

And you're allowed to sit out some rounds if you want.

A (171:36)

Well, like, if you were hurt, like, if I would have told him I was going to sit out around, they would have been fine because my leg, you know, I was hurt. But the nfr, if you sit out one round, you have to sit up too. So you can't just skip one bull. You gotta sit out two. And I wasn't doing it. I was like, I'm getting on all 10 of them. And I got on altenum and I was a one sore bastard. Somebody said, I was in there at ice all over, my head's all swelled up. And they said, well, it's the last round, the day we've been looking for. I said, hell, I've been looking for this day for about eight days.

B (172:20)

I was hurting, thank God, because I

A (172:22)

like to play cards, you know, and stuff. And. And that's what they asked me. They said, was you sore? I said, you know, I was sore because we were in Vegas. We had a babysitter to watch Jagger if we needed to go out and do anything. And every night, Samantha and Jagger would meet me at the steps at the time of samac. And I'd walk out and she's like, what do you want to do? Go to the room now? Like, I was hurting so bad. I'd go in, I'd be stripping clothes off, grab a bag of Epsom salt, and I was headed to the bathtub.

B (172:51)

And you're just gonna sit there?

A (172:52)

I'd dump it in there and I'd sit in there and then I have to get her to come home. I couldn't get out of the bathtub. Like, my leg didn't work at all. And like, my girl one was about that big, I guess, swelled all week and just kept getting worse and worse. It's black around my whole leg. And, yeah, like, it was. I was ready for round 10 to get there. I was ready to go home. I was hurting pretty bad. But I wasn't gonna. That was not sitting out. I couldn't do it.

B (173:25)

And there was the same. What's the guys. Who was the team doctor or the.

A (173:29)

Tandy.

B (173:30)

Tandy. He's just the guy.

A (173:32)

Yeah.

B (173:32)

Yeah.

A (173:35)

They tried. They've put stem units on it and all that stuff, but that don't work very good. I had my own concoction.

B (173:45)

You did?

A (173:46)

Yeah. It gets you a little banamine for horses.

B (173:50)

That's what you get put in horses.

A (173:51)

It's not very good for your insides. Like your liver and stuff like that. Yeah. But. Well, you give it to bulls, too. That's what I gave Bullock. Cut his foot.

B (174:00)

Yeah.

A (174:00)

That's what I gave him. Banamine.

B (174:02)

Banamine.

A (174:04)

It's a painkiller, but you better be in some serious pain.

B (174:10)

Yeah.

A (174:10)

To drink it, because it is the nastiest thing you've ever tasted in your entire life.

B (174:13)

Really?

A (174:14)

I mean, what? Horrible. I'd mix it in orange juice, take me a couple ccs, and just shoot her back and keep on growing.

B (174:24)

What's it called? Can you just go buy it at, like, a feed store or is it like a prescription?

A (174:31)

I think you can.

B (174:33)

I didn't realize that you could do that with Ivermectin. Yeah, you just go buy it off the store.

A (174:37)

I can't. Yeah, I think it's just, like, trader supply. They should have it, but it's nasty. Yeah, it's horrible. It's the worst taste you've ever. It's terrible. But it would get you by long enough. It'd dull the pain long enough to get by.

B (174:59)

All right, man. This has been freaking awesome.

A (175:02)

Appreciate it.

B (175:03)

This is like we're gonna end on banamine.

A (175:05)

Oh, yeah.

B (175:06)

And we'll do a round two someday.

A (175:08)

Yeah. Come on.

B (175:09)

Thank you for coming out.

A (175:10)

Yes, sir. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.