Episode 11: The ever after

Summary

The Frankston Murders - Episode 11: The Ever After

Host: Casefile Presents
Released: March 29, 2023
Created by: Vikki Petraitis
Episode Title: The Ever After

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Introduction

In Episode 11, "The Ever After," host Vikki Petraitis delves deep into the enduring impact of Paul Denyer's horrific crimes in Frankston. As Denyer applies for parole after serving nearly three decades, the episode underscores the profound and lasting repercussions his actions have had on victims' families, the community, and law enforcement.

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The Reign of Terror

Host Commentary ([00:55] - [02:48]):
The episode begins with a reflection on the extensive trauma caused by Paul Denyer’s seven-week killing spree in 1993. Denyer targeted vulnerable individuals, specifically women, children, and babies, creating an atmosphere of pervasive fear. Petraitis highlights the brutality of his crimes, such as ramming women with shopping trolleys in a Safeway car park and murdering Natalie Russell while she was carrying a school bag. The escalation of his violence notably impacted families, leading to Denyer’s life sentence, which was later reduced to a 30-year non-parole period on appeal—a decision that devastated the victims' families.

Notable Quote:
"We can never underestimate the effect his bid for parole has on the people who knew and loved the victims, but also on every woman who felt personally threatened by Denyer." ([00:55])

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Enduring Grief and Trauma

Host Commentary ([02:48] - [06:23]):
Petraitis explores the enduring nature of grief experienced by the victims' families. Sam, a co-host, emphasizes that violent loss leaves a permanent emotional scar. Families like Elizabeth’s cousin Rebecca express ongoing sorrow and anger, compounded by feelings of guilt and the unending fear of Denyer’s potential release.

Rebecca’s Testimony ([04:43] - [05:38]):
Rebecca shares personal memories, highlighting the constant emotional turmoil within her family:

• "I remember Auntie Rita just becoming very sad. I remember Uncle Paul being angry. I remember my mum being angry and sad and angry and sad and angry and sad." ([04:43])

She also notes a sense of solace in knowing Elizabeth was not sexually assaulted, which, while not mitigating the trauma, provided a small measure of comfort.

Host Commentary ([06:23] - [07:47]):
As Denyer’s parole application surfaces, Rebecca expresses skepticism about his rehabilitation:

• "I mean, 30 years seems like a long time, but it's really not. I just feel if someone has the capacity to do what he did, that's not normal." ([06:43])

This sentiment reflects the broader fear among victims' families that Denyer remains a threat despite his incarceration.

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Unseen Consequences

Host Commentary ([07:47] - [08:13]):
The podcast underscores the broader repercussions of Denyer’s crimes, noting that many relatives of the victims passed away shortly after the murders—likely exacerbated by the immense stress and grief.

Rebecca’s Reflection ([08:13] - [08:30]):
Rebecca recalls the loss of her uncle Paul Webster at a young age, illustrating the cascade of tragedies stemming from Denyer’s actions.

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Law Enforcement Perspectives

Detective Chris McCann ([09:47] - [12:06]):
Detective McCann provides insight into the investigative challenges and missed opportunities in early Denyer encounters. He reflects on the unusual and escalating nature of Denyer’s behavior:

• "If it's something that's unusual... that person doing it has obviously got serious mental issues, and they need to be found sooner rather than later before they do something else." ([10:30])

McCann ponders the "what ifs" of the case, suggesting that earlier intervention might have prevented some of the murders.

Notable Quote:
"We all have to live with the fact that had something happened early on and we were able to connect him, that he was the person responsible for killing the cats, imagine had we had the ability to connect information at that time and at least get to him and speak to him, it would have probably changed the course of history because he would have suspected, oh, somebody's watching now. May not have ever stopped him." ([12:06])

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Personal Stories of Loss and Resilience

Jake’s Story ([17:48] - [37:54]):
One of the most poignant segments features Jake, Debbie Freeme's young son, who lost his mother at just 12 days old. Raised by his father Gary, who later became a quadriplegic following a motorcycle accident, Jake recounts his struggles with grief, depression, and substance abuse. Despite these challenges, Jake has worked towards healing and now advocates against Denyer’s parole, connecting with families of other victims to strengthen the fight against his release.

Notable Quotes:

• "Over the years, it did make me quite suicidal. I went through a lot of depressive and anxiety issues, and I guess they still linger today." ([24:16])
• "I will be there and I'm gonna fight against it as best as I possibly can. And I hope to not just fight alone because obviously it's something that I can't do alone." ([36:32])

Jake’s Reflection on Denyer’s Danger ([37:02] - [38:34]):
Jake passionately argues against Denyer’s release, emphasizing the enduring threat he poses:

• "He can only know the power of what he'd done and the power he felt doing it. And that's where that sickness will never leave him because he will always have that power within him." ([37:54])
• "Do it. And that's all. Just do it. Because there's no way that anyone like that should deserve to breathe the same air that we as humans should have to worry." ([38:03])

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Community and Ongoing Memorials

Memorial Efforts ([50:25] - [52:01]):
The community’s ongoing remembrance of the victims is highlighted through annual commemorations and the efforts of the Frankston SES in search operations and memorial events.

Brian McManus’s Account ([51:04] - [52:01]):
Brian McManus shares a deeply personal memory from a 25th-anniversary memorial, emphasizing the persistent presence and support of emergency services during times of grief.

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Rehabilitation and Public Safety Concerns

Prison Insights ([39:34] - [43:04]):
Former prison officers and law enforcement officials discuss Denyer’s behavior in prison, reinforcing the belief that he remains a significant threat. Bill, a former prison officer, criticizes the system for not adequately containing Denyer:

• "He did very bad things and should be punished accordingly. And he stole three lives. Potentially more, we don't know. But he stole three lives that we know about." ([54:34])

Senior Sergeant Peter Bull’s Perspective ([53:47] - [54:03]):
Peter Bull rates Denyer’s dangerousness exceptionally high, underscoring the impossibility of rehabilitation:

• "On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd easily put him as a 20. It's that far off the scale." ([53:47])

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Victims' Friends and Families Speak Out

David Lindbrick ([43:17] - [47:29]):
David, Natalie's boyfriend, describes the profound impact her murder had on his life, leading him to pursue a career in politics to foster positive societal change.

Tracey’s Tribute ([45:13] - [46:12]):
Tracey, a friend of Elizabeth, honors her memory by naming her daughter after her and maintaining commemorative rituals. She firmly opposes any notion of Denyer’s rehabilitation:

• "Tracey... they are universally united in wanting to keep him in jail... He's not only destroyed one family, he's destroyed three families." ([16:20])

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Conclusion

Vikki Petraitis powerfully conveys that Paul Denyer's crimes have left an indelible mark on the community and the lives of those affected. The episode emphasizes the urgent need to ensure Denyer remains incarcerated to prevent further tragedy. Through personal stories, authoritative insights, and emotional testimonies, "The Ever After" serves as a compelling plea to remember the victims and protect society from Denyer's continued threat.

Final Thoughts:
"Until the government makes a law to keep Paul Denyer in prison, it is torture for the families of the women he murdered. The fear they have that he will get out and destroy more lives is palpable."

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Notable Moments

• Gary's Motorcycle Accident ([26:11] - [33:54]):
  Jake recounts the tragic loss of his father Gary in a motorcycle accident, further illustrating the series of traumas faced by Denyer’s victims’ families.

• Commemorative Reenactments ([52:01] - [55:05]):
  Reenactments of commemorative events highlight the community's solidarity and the enduring pain of loss.

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Key Takeaways

• Persistent Fear: Denyer’s potential release continues to evoke deep fear and anxiety among victims’ families and the broader community.
• Unyielding Grief: The emotional toll of the murders remains as acute today as it was decades ago, with families struggling to find closure.
• Authority Insights: Law enforcement and prison officials unanimously agree that Denyer poses an ongoing threat, reinforcing the call to prevent his release.
• Community Resilience: Despite the immense hardships, families and friends strive to honor the victims’ memories and advocate for justice.

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This episode serves as a somber reminder of the far-reaching consequences of violent crime and the imperative to safeguard communities from individuals like Paul Denyer.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host 1]

It'S impossible to put a figure on the amount of people affected by Paul Denyer's seven week killing rampage. It is our hope that the Frankston Murders podcast will show the wider effect of his crimes. One pattern that became clear when piecing together the stories for this podcast is just how often Denyer targeted women, children and babies. He's known to have rammed at least two women with shopping trolleys in the Safeway car park who had either very small children or babies with them at the time. When he broke into Donna Vanes flat, he knew she had a baby and the fact that he stabbed into the baby's bassinet strongly suggests that the baby would have been murdered as well. We have the attacks on pets at the kindergarten left to frighten the children who found them. And then, in the kidnapping and murder of Debbie Freeme, Denia crouched down in the backseat of her car next to the baby seat. It also struck us that two of the victims were carrying school bags when he killed them. This targeting of women, children and babies should be a cause for deep concern. Just when we thought we had finished making this podcast series, the unexpected happened. Paul Denyer applied for parole after having served just 29 years and three months. It was a blow to the families and friends of Debbie, Elizabeth and Natalie when Paul Denyer was given a 30 year non parole period after he appealed his life sentence. Nobody expected him to appeal before the 30 years was up. We can never underestimate the effect his bid for parole has on the people who knew and loved the victims, but also on every woman who felt personally threatened by Denyer.

[Podcast Host 2]

Sam it's easy to imagine that after 30 years, the loss of a loved one gets easier. But when they're taken violently, there's a weight that never seems to lift. And this is what struck me most about revisiting this case. After so many years, the loss doesn't get any easier. Losing a loved one to murder means that you have to live forever knowing that at the whim of a vicious stranger, you lost your daughter or your friend or your mother. The grief today seems as raw now as it did when I first interviewed the families 29 years ago. And then when Dania's non parole period is up, it adds an unimaginable weight onto everyone involved. For some, it's been too much to bear. In the wake of the Frankston murders, the families were all left to cope with the loss. Elizabeth's cousin Rebecca shows how this looked in her family.

[Rebecca]

I remember Auntie Rita just becoming very sad. I remember Uncle Paul being angry. I remember my mum being angry and sad and angry and sad and angry and sad. I remember there was a level of guilt for wife. She had have stayed with us, that wouldn't have happened. Why didn't she stay with us?

[Podcast Host 2]

Guilt by those who are not responsible is a common thing. I was relieved when Rebecca told me that she had read my book as a teenager. And in a strange way it brought her comfort. We talked about how important it was to present the facts because when people didn't know the truth or they could imagine much worse. But the truth also has to be respectful to the victims.

[Rebecca]

I think you did it very well because I felt it was respectful. And I remember one thing that brought so much comfort to us was that she wasn't sexually assaulted. And we kind of clung to that almost. It was like, okay, it was bad, she was killed. And as horrific as that is, it was we just clung to that fact that she hadn't been raped. And I think you're right, imagination is so much worse. And as hard as it was to read the book, I do think there was a little bit of comfort there in actually knowing what happened and knowing what didn't happen.

[Podcast Host 2]

With the end of the 30 year minimum sentence approaching, I asked Rebecca for her thoughts. Of course, when we did this interview, Dania hadn't applied for parole yet and we spoke theoretically he shouldn't be released.

[Rebecca]

I mean, 30 years seems like a long time, but it's really not. I just feel if someone has the capacity to do what he did, that's not normal. That's not just get out and go and go back into society and Live normally. I don't see how he could do that. It's not just something that happened 30 years ago. This is something that people live with. This is something that people, their whole life and the lives of people around them have, have been changed. And if he was to be released, how does that impact these people? Trauma is revisited over and over and over and this would be another time where it's revisited. And what would that do? What's the ripple effect of that?

[Podcast Host 2]

Another unseen effect of Denia's crimes was that so many of the relatives didn't survive long after the murders. Natalie's uncle Mick and Aunt Bernadette died just a couple of years after Natalie, Mick from a heart attack on his 50th birthday, and Bernadette from cancer. And that's what happened to Rebecca's uncle, Paul Webster.

[Rebecca]

I was. I was about 18 or 19 when he died, so five, six years, he had a heart attack. He was 50, early 50s.

[Podcast Host 2]

If we are to learn anything from the Frankston case, we must learn the most important lesson. When women report their suspicions about a man, we must listen. Because an offender like Denya is dipping his toe in the water. He breaks into his next door neighbour's house and slashes her throat on all her photos, slashes her clothes, carves messages into her furniture. He goes in and out of her place for weeks and nothing. The police don't come knocking, or if they do, nothing came of it. Then he can break into the home of another woman who he's met at his block of units and slaughter her cats. Still nothing. No cops, no arrest. And then it's like he cracks his knuckles like a prize fighter and says to the world, here I come. Every police officer who I've spoken to about the Frankston murders was affected by them. But Detective Chris McCann called in to investigate Donna's break in. He could see straight away that this offender was a long way from the run of the mill, break and enter type.

[Chris McCann]

If I think back over the 20 years that I spent, despite going to dozens of murder scenes, going to dozens of violent crimes, this sticks out in my mind as being something that was just particularly sickening because of what he did. And he was obviously completely out of control when he did this and it still sticks with me. I don't forget about it. And this is the thing that none of these things for police ever goes away.

[Podcast Host 2]

Chris believes that if there's a lesson to be learnt from this, it's to take notice of the out of the ordinary.

[Chris McCann]

If it's something that's unusual. Like an event like this, then you need to treat it with the seriousness it deserves. I mean, there's so much happening in the world still, and there's crimes happening every day, but it's not normal for a human to do what they did in this way and dismember an animal and write death threats on a wall. The person doing it has obviously got serious mental issues, and they need to be found sooner rather than later before they do something else.

[Podcast Host 2]

And it's not just the jobs the police remember, it's the people, too.

[Chris McCann]

It was a horrible incident, but, you know, after that, I saw hundreds of other violent, horrible incidents as well, but I never forgot about it and never forgot about the people involved. And now, knowing that Donna's since passed away, I feel for her. The fact that she went through being terrified almost her whole life over that incident is. It's a horrible thing to think of.

[Podcast Host 2]

We can't go back and we can't change history. No one stopped Paul Denyer. No one read the signs or connected the dots. Chris McCann is left to ponder the what ifs.

[Chris McCann]

We all have to live with the fact that had something happened early on and we were able to connect him, that he was the person responsible for killing the cats. Imagine had we had the ability to connect information at that time and at least get to him and speak to him, it would have probably changed the course of history because he would have suspected, oh, somebody's watching now. May not have ever stopped him. Still having the thoughts of wanting to kill as he had had since he was a child. But it still may have stopped one or two of the murders happening. But I'm only surmising. I mean, who would know?

[Podcast Host 2]

Angela Butts, who spent the night with the Russells while they were waiting to hear if the body found off the bike track was that of their daughter, has never forgotten that night. I've got goosebumps right now. Just. It's 29 years ago, but it's as. It's as real as it was then. Now. Just that. Yeah, Just remembering how I felt was. Yeah. Wasn't just a job. It was something that has stayed with me through the last 29 years. When I began making this podcast series, I don't think I fully appreciated just how many women there were who were dreading the possibility of Denia's release because they feared he would target them again. The loss of the families of the victims was so profound that I didn't think much beyond that. The families didn't want him Released because they didn't want him to do to another family what he'd done to theirs but all the while there were women out there who were worried that he would come after them again because he'd done it before the ripple effect of the actions of Paul Denyer is wide there's also a subtlety that people might not think about much unless they've been directly affected by crimes like this Lives are taken but around all the victims other lives are diminished as a result of their loss for this reason, we can't limit our understandings of what Denia did just to his victims so many people would not live life to the fullest People who loved Elizabeth, Debbie and Natalie led very different lives in the wake of their murders Elizabeth's friend Tracy still finds it hard to speak about the loss 30 years hasn't dimmed that.

[Tracey]

Even now it fix I haven't spoken about it but in her memory I've named my daughter her name is Ebony Elizabeth so I've put her in her honour and even now I still put a candle on there and I still have her pictures I have a couple of pictures of her as well around the house Sometimes I just. I don't know whether it's a bit crazy or something I just say oh hello I hope happy up in heaven.

[Podcast Host 2]

Tracey can't think about the way Elizabeth died It's just too painful I prefer.

[Tracey]

To just remember her the good times, not the way she died so I don't want to remember anything like that because she was such a. She was a beautiful self that would do anything for you her family, her friends she only had a small circle of friends but those friends were her life and she would do anything for them she was a sweetheart and she's one of those friends that you never.

[Podcast Host 2]

Forget Thinking of Denyer is beyond hard for those affected by what he did like Tracey they are universally united in wanting to keep him in jail don't.

[Tracey]

Think any rehabilitation whatsoever will help that individual and that's why I reckon he needs to stay in there for life to protect the community and to protect other people in the area where they put him if he is released be the worst decision they ever make I just hope he rots as far as I'm concerned because he's not only destroyed one family, he's destroyed three families and when you think about it it's just not the families, it's the friends and everyone else associated with those three girls as well like was it. There's Elizabeth of course there's Deborah she just become a mum. So that young boy. So I don't hope that young boy is doing very well.

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[Podcast Host 2]

Like everyone, Tracey hoped Debbie's young boy was doing well, but the odds were not in his favour. Every time I did a talk on the case, people would always ask, whatever happened to baby Jake? Anyone from Frankston back then will remember pictures of baby Jake in the arms of his bereft father, Gary, on the front pages of newspapers, just 12 days old when he lost his mother. I first got in touch with Debbie's son Jake when I was updating the book for the 25th anniversary. Jake was living in Mount Gambier and we exchanged messages on Facebook for months before we spoke. We ended up arranging for Jake to come over to Frankston for the anniversary and I will never forget the way people reacted to him at the gathering. I introduced him to people who'd come to pay their respects and people hugged him. But that afternoon, he was the son of Frankston. He was beloved because of who he was and what he represented. Jake has recently made the move to Melbourne for a fresh start. I asked him about his childhood growing up with Gary.

[Jake]

For the better part, it was quite a positive one, I guess. I mean, motorbikes, like he was always trying to keep me distracted, trying to make me find something that I really enjoyed. I guess he just wanted the best for me at the, like, every moment that he could.

[Podcast Host 2]

Jake remembers getting his first motorbike when he was 2 and having his first race at 4.

[Jake]

That I can remember was when I got the motorbike, obviously. First ever motorbike that I'd own. 1995 model Peewee 50 Yamaha I think. First time I ever rode that on my own as well. Just the way he was reacting, the way he was smiling and then 4 years old I think was My first ever race and I did pretty well in that, fell off and I think I landed on my bum at that stage and did some pretty bad damage to my bum during the race, but got back on, managed to finish the race.

[Podcast Host 2]

Even at such a young age, Jake knew that motorbikes were a way he and his dad could bond.

[Jake]

He was always tinkering with his own motorbikes, trying to build his own. We never really had the same motorbike. His bikes were always changing, whereas mine was a constant, constant bike until I was too big for it.

[Podcast Host 2]

Jake and his dad moved around a bit when he was young, but wherever they were, they'd find places in the bush to ride their bikes.

[Jake]

I think at that stage we were in Castleton still for a bit there, and then we moved to Warrnambool after Castleton, but during the Caston period we would always go out to Longlead, which is a quite big area of just bush and scrub and absolutely everything you could want while you're on a motorbike.

[Podcast Host 2]

As anyone would in this situation, Gary found it beyond difficult to tell Jake about his lost mother. He had partnered again and Jake called his partner Mum.

[Jake]

I don't remember asking him, do I have a mum? Till. I think it was when I was about six or seven years old, when he was trying to break up with my stepmother, who I was calling Mum at the time. He had said to me, when we walk into this house, don't call her Mum because she's not actually your mother. And I just. I got a bit confused as to why he had to tell me that. And I think that's probably the first time I ever just said to him, why can't I call her Mum? Isn't she Mum? And that was pretty much where it all started.

[Podcast Host 2]

It wasn't until a couple of years later, when Jake was in school, that some kids asked him why he didn't have a mother.

[Jake]

I was talking to a couple of children and they wanted to know where my mum is and why I was only ever dropped off by my father.

[Podcast Host 2]

Jake began wondering about his mum and rather than explaining it, his dad gave him some magazine articles to read.

[Jake]

It was when my father and I were living alone together in Warrnambool and he'd come out with a few magazines that were Women's Weekly, New Weekly, which had had a couple of stories in there. He told me to read the stories as best as I could. And being at that age, there is no real true understanding as to what you're reading. There's only what you can learn over time from what you read. For me at that stage, I didn't become emotional over it. I didn't know how to take it.

[Podcast Host 2]

There were even a couple of articles in the years after the murders featuring Gary and Jake as a small boy.

[Jake]

The photo was taken in Castellden at the Castellden showgrounds. Yeah, I was probably quite young then as well. There's also, I think might have been one of the other ones had a photo of me, my father and my dog sitting on a couple of rocks in a big paddock or like on a cliff.

[Podcast Host 2]

So as Jake looks back on his younger years with his father, how did he see Gary coping?

[Jake]

I guess the best way he was coping was through distraction, through alcohol and pretty much anything that made him not feel like his true born self, like he just wanted to feel like someone else, to be able to not think like himself and not think like he would through each and every day. Waking up probably with the same thought, going to sleep with that same thought, probably even sitting at a dinner table and trying not to think that same thought of, there's that chair there that should be filled, but it's not. And yeah, I think he just kept trying to move on from the fact by distraction and anything else that made him feel different.

[Podcast Host 2]

I asked Jake if his dad ever talked about his mum.

[Jake]

Not really, actually. He would never say, like, this is what me and your mum done. This is what me and your mum done together, or me mum and a bunch of friends had done. It was always just more or less not trying to speak about that because obviously it would hurt him more to think about the positive things and not being able to go through those positive things or to even be able to sit there and talk with her about those positive things and have that life.

[Podcast Host 2]

In essence. Jake was raised in a house of grief.

[Jake]

Over the years, it did make me quite suicidal. I went through a lot of depressive and anxiety issues and I guess they still linger today. But I have a bit more of a control over it now that I sort of realize happiness is a choice and so is sadness. So like really, if you want to get over it, it isn't something you can fully get over. You just gotta get over it for that time being, until the next thought comes, you go through that next thought and then once you're over those thoughts again, you just sort of find a way to look for the positive and the negative and then pull yourself out of it.

[Podcast Host 2]

But watching his father seek solace in drugs and alcohol, Jake Got the wrong message.

[Jake]

I saw it as something that wasn't negative. I didn't see it as something that was killing me or deforming my brain or my thought patterns or anything like that. I just seen it as, okay, I feel different. I feel not like myself. Now I must be doing right because this is what my dad did. And obviously being a coping mechanism, over time, it just became more natural than it should have been to do. So I sort of learned through seeing and doing what he did. In the end, it was really damaging. Even till now, like, I'm still trying to put myself back together to be my own self and not like I am my father's son. I'm not going to say I'm not my father's son, but I have to be someone other than who my father raised me to be. It's honestly been quite difficult to raise myself in a different way to what my father has raised me to be. Because having that, it's like a computer, once you write that hard drive, it's very hard to wipe it and rewrite it again on your own or through other people. And, yeah, having to do a lot of it myself.

[Podcast Host 2]

The times Jake and his dad were at their happiest was when they were out riding bikes together.

[Jake]

It's a truly euphoric feeling to just be out there, be in the wind and just watching everything fly by without a care in the world. There's no thought of, could I hit that tree? Could I hit this pothole? Or anything like that? It's how much faster can I go so I don't hit that tree, so I don't hit that pothole, so I don't even feel that pothole. Just amazing to honestly to have him teach me that thing, because it's a very, very great way to distract myself even now. And I'm proud of him for that.

[Podcast Host 2]

As a teenager who'd been riding since he was a toddler, flying through the landscape on a motorbike without a care in the world never seemed dangerous. Until one day it was.

[Jake]

I'd just gotten a brand new 2015 motorbike probably two, maybe three weeks beforehand. The day I got it, my stepbrother, my dad, had rebuilt A85 or something like that. It was. We were both just excited to get out and ride these bikes. We would put them straight on the trailer, and my dad was the man when it come to strapping the bikes down, so we didn't even have to look back when he was doing, you know, 120, 130 down the road, swaying side to side on the byline. The potholes the road had and bikes would just stay there no matter what. So we were all just happy, giddy and just ready to go.

[Podcast Host 2]

Gary and 16 year old Jake, a friend and Gary's partner's son, went to a quarry outside of Mount Gambier for their ride.

[Jake]

It was a quarry along Mount Sinai road that now doesn't exist. It was quite a big quarry. It was just the absolute perfect spot for riding. I think we were about 45 minutes into a ride and usually we would spend up to four to six hours having a proper ride, just wasting as much fuel as we can and just if we hurt ourselves we'd just get back on the bike. But obviously there was just one fall too hard.

[Podcast Host 2]

Gary had gone up over an incline but didn't realise what lay over the crest.

[Jake]

Honestly, I thought it was just like any other hill. I hadn't even checked out the other side of it myself. So I thought it was just going to ride up, turn around and come back. But going around the corner where I was, I was completely across the other side of the quarry and he had just disappeared from out of view and I got a bad feeling but I didn't think it was anything too serious. So I had just casually rode over to see like is he or I hadn't heard the bike for a couple of seconds. On the other side it was just a straight 29 foot drop and by straight I mean you're walking down, having to stand on, well, pretty much lay down on the side and put your foot down with your heel and just dig it in and try and find your footing. Each step you're going down the bottom. There was just stumps everywhere and we are all amazed that he did not hit a stump because if he had us hit that stump he wouldn't have survive. He just was laying there, bike was just mangled on top of him. His friend managed to pull the bike off of him which we to that till this day we don't know if it was the best idea for him to have pulled the bike off or not. But we knew for a fact that that fall, the height of the fall, no matter what, would have done enough damage to make no difference whether the bike was on top of him or if we had left it there. We just did our best to make sure he stayed as still as possible. But for about 30 to 40 minutes he was not conscious and not moving at all and eventually got him to have a little bit of consciousness. But that Was just as the ambulance was rocking up and they got him to just basically sit as still as possible and they took the helmet off him and they put a brace on him. Just kept in there for about, I think maybe an hour and a half.

[Podcast Host 2]

Two hours after that, Gary was taken to hospital and the family waited at home.

[Jake]

We were at home wondering what's going on. We were all stressed and worried. We were all crying and distraught, just waiting for the call from the hospital to say, come up to the hospital, he's here. I think when we got that call, that was probably when everything started to really set in that this had happened. And it just wasn't something he was able to come back from.

[Podcast Host 2]

Knowing his dad was in the hospital badly injured. Jake couldn't believe this had happened on a motorbike.

[Jake]

He was the toughest person I could ever imagine. I thought he would never, ever die when he was on a motorbike. And I just thought if he was on a motorbike, he had wings. That was just who he was to me.

[Podcast Host 2]

Then the call came through from the hospital. Gary's partner spoke to the doctor.

[Jake]

I didn't hear the call myself. That was all given to my stepmother. She had just said, like, look, we're going up the hospital now. We're going to leave all you here. I didn't take that too well because I wanted to see him, I needed to see him. I felt just didn't know how to react at the time. I just couldn't stop crying, couldn't stop walking around, couldn't stop being distraught about it. We eventually ended up there. I think it was probably an hour or maybe an hour and a half had went by after my stepmother had got the call and went up herself. That was possibly the hardest time because by that time even my grandfather, my dad's brother and I think one of his sisters as well was there and none of us knew what to do. Even his, one of his best of friends was there as well. And yeah, they were all just kept reassuring me, which of course they would, to just be okay with it, to not take it too much on my shoulders and yeah, just be calm.

[Podcast Host 2]

By the time Jake got to the hospital, Gary was conscious.

[Jake]

He was just lying in the bed. He still had the plastic, like gurney sheet sort of thing underneath him. And obviously being on the morphine, he had no idea what was going on, but people kept telling him. So by the time I did get there, he sort of had an idea but still had to explain quite a bit that he was going to be okay. By that stage, they didn't actually know. There was no X rays that had been done yet. He knew fully well that he wasn't able to move from the neck down. It was kind of hard to see him only moving his head, trying to sit up. You could see within his eyes that he just really wanted to sit up and put his arms around not just me, but also the stepmother to just say, like, it's going to be all right. But there was no way he could really guarantee that he would be all right.

[Podcast Host 2]

The injuries Gary suffered made him a quadriplegic.

[Jake]

He was in Hampstead Rehabilitation in Adelaide for, I think, two years, maybe two and a half years. And we were going up there every two weeks, maybe even every week. And obviously that took a lot out of the pocket for not just like the stepmother, but the whole family. It just diminished our happiness, really, at home. None of us knew how to treat each other as well. I know I took a darker side to life by that stage. Started to go through a lot of emotional difficulties, even just with the traveling. Eventually, like, as sad to say as it is, I did. I did give up for a while there. I didn't want to see him. I didn't want to be there because it was getting too hard. And it wasn't so much just getting too hard for that fact. It was. I was starting to feel his pain and starting to feel the future was starting to set in stone. I just wasn't able to face her. So I think that's when I started to really take off onto the drugs and try to just alienate myself from the family and everyone. And, yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

After two years in rehabilitation, Gary's partner appealed to the media to help her convince the hospital to let him come home. The financial strain on the family having to travel to Adelaide to visit him was too great. He was able to come home, but without the hospital programs to help him, he went downhill. Jake was at a friend's place when he got the call that his dad had died. He hopped on his bike and he flew around to his dad's house.

[Jake]

That's probably the fastest I've ever moved because I just wanted to know if it was real. And around that time, going through the drugs and stuff like that, I didn't know what was real, what wasn't. So to see him laying there still without the chest moving, nothing like that, as usual, it just really hurt.

[Podcast Host 2]

Jake did not cope well with the death of his father. At the tender age of 18, he had lost both his parents. Like his dad before him, he drowned his anger and sorrow in alcohol and drugs. His behaviour was self destructive. He had a difficult road ahead of him. Jake has recently moved to Melbourne for a fresh start.

[Jake]

My hopes, my future is to just become the man that I've always wanted to be for myself and that my dad would have envisioned for him to see. I honestly think he just wanted happiness. He wanted me to be happy, to be able to ignore the negatives, to just focus on myself, find a way to just cope with the past and negatives in the past so I could move on as well as he did, but even better than he did and just be successful. One day I'll be able to look back and say, look, this is what I've been through and this is where I am now. And I'm happy to have gone through what I've gone through and be as strong as I am in the mind frame.

[Podcast Host 2]

Perhaps the hardest thing for Jake was the possibility that his mother's killer might soon apply for parole. When Jake and I spoke, this hadn't happened yet. But now that it has, it's acted as a call to arms, not just for Jake, but for the many who loved the women Denya killed. Jake has now connected with Natalie's parents, sisters and friends to become a strong voice in the fight to keep Denya in jail.

[Jake]

I will be there and I'm gonna fight against it as best as I possibly can. And I hope to not just fight alone because obviously it's something that I can't do alone. I'm going to do all I can to make my voice larger than it is and make sure that he doesn't ever get out and see the light of day for what he's done.

[Podcast Host 2]

In the face of such immense loss, I wonder if Denya can ever know what he's done.

[Jake]

He can only know the power of what he'd done and the power he felt doing it. And that's where that sickness will never leave him because he will always have that power within him and that powerful feeling of being so what he would think is strength, but it's not a strength, it's a weakness to have fallen to that side of. I can do this, I can do that. When he should have really looked at himself and said, maybe I'm not like this, maybe I should find something else to do. But that's the reason that I'm going to stand there, whether I have to do it to his face or not, and make sure that he knows what he's done, what he's made of not just my mum, but of me through my life, through doing that. And my dad too, of course.

[Podcast Host 2]

I asked Jake what he would say to the politicians who, with the stroke of a pen, could enact laws to keep Dania in jail.

[Jake]

Do it. And that's all. Just do it. Because there's no way that anyone like that should deserve to breathe the same air that we as humans should have to worry, should have to look over our shoulder for that sort of person.

[Podcast Host 2]

And keeping Danya in prison would ensure the community won't ever be subject to his killing ways again. And if there is truth in the sexual assault allegations made against him, there would also be a danger he could add that to his repertoire.

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[Podcast Host 2]

When Denyer spent his youth creating fear in women and then thriving on the chaos he caused that he escalated to murder through surprised no one who'd witnessed his behaviour along the way. Retired Senior sergeant Peter Bull wonders how you can contain that once it's been unleashed.

[Jake]

On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd easily put him as a 20. It's that far off the scale. And if that's the way that people's minds work for an extended period of time, and then the escalation to where it got to by the end, you've got to say, how can that ever be turned around? How can something that is so far off the charts ever be somehow turned around and then contained within the normal boundaries of what reasonable people in the community live by, how could that person get so bad? And then how could they ever be risked in the community again? Because it is. It's just so far off the scale.

[Podcast Host 2]

On a smaller Scale denyer did the same thing in prison. He caused mischief among the other prisoners, always being in the centre of a drama. Prison officer Bill described how this didn't always end well for him.

[Bill]

I've on a repeated occasion laughed and joked and said that if I ever had to pull Denia's file into a meeting, I'd need a wheelbarrow. There's several volumes of a file where your average prisoner has one file. There are several volumes of Paul's. Not so much these days, but back in those days, everything was paper, everything was written, you were handwriting into files about case management and about the prisoner and what was going on. So these files just grow bigger and bigger and bigger. As far as his behaviour in prison is concerned, he was by far not head prefect. He was up to no good. He did get involved in quite a lot of things that had nothing to do with him. They talk about prison politics and they talk about things that happen in jail. And quite honestly, jail is no different to a really, really violent high school. There is rumour, there is gossip, there is what's going on here and people getting involved. And I can honestly tell you Paul was assaulted many a time for getting involved in things that had nothing to do with him.

[Podcast Host 2]

Having worked with Dania in prison, Bill offered insights into the sentencing.

[Bill]

And that's a scary thought too. But I can imagine what might be going through people's heads, because at the time, in 1993, 30 years was a long time and who knew where we were going to be in 30 years? But then when you think about it, time gets away from people and then they look at the calendar. I go, oh, my God, it's been 29 years. And that's a very confronting thought. And I don't think anyone ever thought in 30 years time we'd be having this conversation going, keep him locked up. He has not learned his lesson, he has not changed, he has not become remorseful, he has not repented or even apologised. He has not earned the right to be able to go, I've done everything you've asked me to do now I deserve to be out. You don't deserve anything.

[Podcast Host 2]

For David Lindbrick, his life was completely derailed when his girlfriend Natalie was murdered. It took extraordinary strength to get it back on track.

[J]

He robbed these girls of their future and the ripple effects of that continue to this day. Quite, very severe in many cases. I sort of dropped out of university afterwards and ended up unemployed, but I was lucky that I had family that helped me, supported me I was lucky in that I sort of just snapped one day and said, all right, I've got a make a choice of either let this define, control my life and ruin my life or I can choose to just start again. And I chose to start again. So I went back to uni, started from scratch and moved to the country and did all that and then managed to get things together. But, you know, not everyone did.

[Podcast Host 2]

For David, he had to make the heart wrenching decision to move away, which also meant not seeing Natalie's family. It's unfathomable to think of a 19 year old navigating these difficult waters.

[J]

I think that's why one of the reasons I moved away and wanted to leave, I felt like I had to just start again somehow. And I felt terrible about that at the time and I still do to some degree because I used to visit the Russells a lot and I just stopped. And it wasn't because I didn't care about them, it was just because I couldn't. I didn't think it was helpful for either of us. I was trying to think of it from their point of view too. Is it helpful to them to have, you know, constantly have me there and it's probably not great. So I don't know, I don't know what better decisions I could have made. I felt like things weren't going very well in my life and I had to make changes or I was going to go into a ditch.

[Podcast Host 2]

Natalie's close friend Karen saw the same thing. Once Natalie was murdered, it stopped all her friends in their tracks.

[Rebecca]

All of our relationships suffered. All of them, our relationships with each other suffered for lots of different reasons, probably due to the trauma and the reporting and what have you. But everything kind of changed, I guess as a result of it as well. Like I kind of kept them all right in my heart forever. They're still there. We don't see each other as often anymore. It's been years for some of us, but you're kind of forever 17, never actually moving past that point. Yeah. So absolutely it did. It diminished all kinds of things. No one really cared about what scores we were going to get for our VCE or anything. You just about anything anymore. So all of those career plans you might have had or what you were going to do for your tertiary education just became something that you just didn't care about anymore.

[Podcast Host 2]

Natalie's dad, Brian watched this play out.

[Jake]

Not only us, as you say. It's a ripple effector too. A lot of her school friends, they were good Students, et cetera. And they just stopped going to school. They didn't sit the final exams, went off to jobs, which they would have all gone on much better. I'm convinced we still bump into some of them now, as soon as they see us. Hi, how are you going? We remember with Natalie so and so and all this. And of course, they're women now, in their 40s, and they've got their own families. And we look at that and think, well, would Natalie have had a couple of children now? What would she be doing now? And it's heartbreaking just time and time again. And Dean is responsible for that. He should never be allowed out to do that to anybody else.

[Podcast Host 2]

For Natalie's boyfriend, David, her murder took away their innocence. It made them grow up and learn lessons much earlier than they otherwise might have. He wonders now if the things he learned in the wake of Natalie's murder moved him toward a career in state politics.

[J]

I feel like it took away part of a normal life experience, but not just for me, for everyone that was surrounded. And it made me aware of the concept of collective trauma, that an action that people take can cause such widespread effects. And I consider that in a positive way as well. I know that this is focusing on negative actions, but it also made me think about maybe I can do some sort of positive actions, and maybe that can have positive effect on things. And maybe that's what finally drew me to politics in the end, is I sort of had that thought that if I can do something positive, maybe there can be some positive ripple effects throughout the world. But it made me very conscious of the actions that people take and the consequences on the world.

[Podcast Host 2]

It's always been important to me to make this story about the girls, Elizabeth, Debbie, and Natalie. We don't know what they would be doing now had Denia not ended their potential. When they were young and brimming with life and possibility, Elizabeth's cousin Rebecca, thinks she would have gone far.

[Rebecca]

I wholeheartedly believed that she would have achieved so much in this world. She had already survived and made it to a place where she could really do something in the world. She'd escaped, and she was getting educated. She had a good support system around her, unlike a lot of people that have had a start to life like she had. So I have no doubt that she would have gone on to do great things.

[Podcast Host 2]

Rebecca felt the effects of the crime differently from her sister.

[Rebecca]

Trauma affects people differently. So while my sister has very limited memory of it, she obviously knows about it and that it happened and lived It. She kind of moved on and that was it where I obsessed over it. I became obsessed with true crime. I read everything. I stole the book that you wrote off my mother because she thought I was too young to read it. And I used to steal it from the bookcase and hide and read it. So we, yeah, we. We dealt with things very differently. I feel like other people would be the same. Everyone deals with it differently.

[Podcast Host 2]

Members of the Frankston SES are always at the heart of the searches for anything that happens in the Frankston area. They did the searches for Sarah McDermott, they helped search the crime scene at Michelle Brown's murder, and they were on hand for each of the crimes committed by Paul Denyer in 1993, just like they do for Sarah's anniversary. They also commemorate the Frankston murders on the anniversary of Natalie's murder on 30 July. And for Brian McManus, that date has another significance. It's his birthday.

[J]

We were out celebrating my birthday when unfortunately we got the pager message that the police wanted us again because there'd been a young schoolgirl gone missing. I just left my birthday party and headed off down, and that's where we met the police. And it was unfortunate that it was my birthday, but it's certainly something that I'll remember for the rest of my life. SES always goes down there on Natalie's anniversary to lay some flowers. And Nat's Track. It's Nat's Track because when we go there on the 30th of July, then we commemorate the three of them at the same time. It's probably easier because I don't think there's any commemorative physician at Taylor's Road or Lloyd Parker or anything. So we just sent an SES crew down there to pay our respects. And we think of the whole three women at the same time. So we normally see Nat's parents there. I've spoken to them over the years as well.

[Podcast Host 2]

An unforgettable moment occurred at the 25th memorial at the track, which, as Brian said, has been renamed NATS Track. We were all gathered there with Natalie's family and Jake and around 100 others who'd come to pay their respects when over the rise in the road, we all saw the SES approaching. The sea of orange uniforms coming over the crest was such a powerful reminder that the SES are always there when they are most needed. They were able to meet Jake and one of the men who found Natalie on the track was able to share a private moment with Carmel And Brian, these are the precious moments that shine like the sun in the bleak landscape of the damage caused by Paul Denyer. When it comes to, when it comes to rehabilitation, there's a lot of public opinion and debate and so there should be. We should always be looking at the best ways to punish and rehabilitate those who choose to break laws. But what is different in the case of Paul Denyer is that he's not like other prisoners. He is an offender like we have rarely seen in Australia. As such, we need to look at his situation differently. In this podcast, we've heard from a lot of police who've described him as being so much worse than anything they've seen. I'm going to repeat what retired Senior Sergeant Peter Bull had to say.

[Jake]

It's only my opinion, but having seen a heck of a lot over time, on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd easily put him as a 20. It's that far off the scale.

[Podcast Host 2]

And here's retired Senior Constable Howard Hopper, who videotaped the reenactment with Denyer after his arrest.

[Jake]

I think letting him out on parole is absolutely fraught with danger.

[Podcast Host 2]

I saw no remorse. I saw a person that was quite.

[Jake]

Proud of what he did and just enjoyed what was going on.

[Podcast Host 2]

I'd hate to think what'd happen if.

[Jake]

He does get parole.

[Podcast Host 2]

And retired prison guard Bill.

[Bill]

I think the last thing Paul Charles Denny needs is hope. He didn't give hope to the families of his victims. He didn't give hope to his victims. He why should he have it? That makes no sense to me. He did a very bad thing and should be punished accordingly. And he stole three lives. Potentially more, we don't know. But he stole three lives that we know about. So why is he entitled to one?

[Podcast Host 2]

What I want everyone to understand is that until the government makes a law to keep Paul Danier in prison, it is torture for the families of the women he murdered. And I don't use that word lightly. The fear they have that he will get out and destroy more lives is palpable. And it doesn't get any easier. It feels as raw today as it did when it happened. And I have no doubt the 30 year minimum sentence or non parole period has a lot to do with it. After the original life sentence, there was a feeling that justice had been served and that Denyer had given up his right to ever walk among us again. The appeal crushed the families. The first I knew of the parole application was when Natalie's sister Janain told me earlier on the day it hit the media. The family wanted me to know before the news was made public. Janine said that when Brian took the call about it, Carmel was by his side, shaking. The parole bid came out of the blue. We knew it was coming, but we never expected it to be before the 30 years was up. I rang Carmel and Brian immediately. Brian answered and he sounded ok, which was a huge relief. My own heart was thumping with the news and I could only imagine how it must have made them feel. I offered to help in the best way I knew how with any victim impact statements. They needed to write other professions like doctors, doctors and paramedics, a great inner crisis. But chances are, in life, one day you'll meet a writer and I was happy to help. News like Dania's parole application acted in much the same way as the flooding that Eastern Australia was suffering the week it happened. You need to check in on everyone you know to see who could be bowled over by this. You need to take a quick course in how the system works. You need to reach out to people who you think might be able to help. Because what became clear to me in making this podcast was that Denya isn't just dangerous where young women are concerned. He is dangerous to all women, babies, schoolgirls, friends, strangers, older women, everyone. Unless there is a government guarantee that he will never get out. The families all fear he might and it's just not fair on any of them. A number of times during the police interview, detectives Rod Wilson and Darren o' Loughlin asked Denyer why he chose the women he killed.

[Jake]

Can you tell me why.

[Bill]

You attacked.

[Jake]

Her on that night? Just. Just had. Just had the feeling I saw. What sort of feeling can you possibly describe where you had this feeling?

[Podcast Host 2]

Just wanted.

[Tracey]

Just wanted to kill.

[Jake]

What caused you to select her? Is it at that time, just that gay feeling?

[Podcast Host 2]

The problem with even thinking of letting him out of jail is that we'll never know if that go feeling has stopped or has it just laid dormant for all the time he's been in jail. When I wrote the Frankston Murders book all those years ago, I wanted to end the book with a scene that Natalie's aunt Bernadette had described to me. Bernadette would visit Natalie's grave at the New Cheltenham cemetery to weed around it and lay fresh flowers. Natalie was buried with her grandparents and Bernadette talked to her niece and joked that she was buried with the oldies. But Bernadette took comfort in the fact that on one side of Natalie a 16 year old girl is buried and on the other side. A girl of 17, she thought it was nice that her niece had some young girls for company. Nearby was the grave of a policeman, Elbert Haag, who died in 1961 at the age of 35. Bernadette would say, nat, you have a nice policeman to protect you now. She weeded his grave too. Sam.

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[Podcast Host 1]

The award winning true crime podcast Crime Interrupted returns taking you behind the scenes of some of Australia's biggest criminal investigations drug syndicates, counter terrorism, forced marriage, tax fraud and cybercrime. Everyday people doing legendary work. Listen now on your favourite podcast platform.