Joe from Vanta (3:04)

Our three free YouTube channels on EVs and clean energy tech are funded by our fun packed test drivetastic events in the north west and Greater London and our events down Under. Next up, Everything Electric Sydney 2026 plus check out EverythingElectric store for merch and much more.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (3:23)

So James, thank you very much for giving it a time to do this. This is really useful for us to get a really good picture of what's going on in Australia. You know, I've waffled on about it as a casual observer and occasional visitor. Oh my God, there's loads more electric cars than they were last time. You know, that's about the depth of my analysis is that. But I mean can you, can you give a bit of, or a bit of your personal background if you don't mind, just like a bit of how you've ended up being interested in the topic and involved in the aeva?

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (3:55)

I think probably the two aspects to that. So my background, I'm a IT person, I focused on the technology industry and technology transitions for a number of years now, for a few decades now and that sort of plays into electric vehicles on a personal side. And really it's been about 30 years since I first saw the Solar Challenge cars roll into the finish line near where I was working at the time. New out of university and, and seeing these remarkably engineered cars that had driven literally the, the height of Australia without having to go and burn fossil fuels and thinking this seems like a really good idea. Yeah. But then experienced, I was working in the US technology companies based out of Australia experienced the Tesla Roadster in Silicon Valley in 2011, I think it was and just said, all right, yep, this is what I need. And I really have had a strong focus on sustainability, emissions reduction and the technology and aspects that are, that are associated with that from an AVA perspective. And I think this is probably a common, common with many people who are now buying electric vehicles. I bought an EV the moment there was one that supported what I needed to do. So I needed it to get me to work and back. I needed it to carry the family. I needed it to get me to Canberra from Sydney on the weekends, drive Sydney to Adelaide a couple of times a year, things like that. So the moment there was one and would fit in my garage, that's probably another point. The moment there was one on the market that fit that need, that mission, that was when I was bought in and that's around about the time that I joined AEVA and started participating. But interestingly, when you reached out about this conversation, I checked and I'd actually been a patreon member since 2016 of your channel. So I guess that puts a point in the timeline as well. Yeah.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (6:02)

Oh, that is about when we started doing it. So you've been there right from the beginning. That's amazing. We're very. Well, we wouldn't be doing this if you hadn't done that. So. Yeah, because it is. In fact, I've just been reading through a huge. There's been a page. What are we going to do about Patreon meeting that they've had? And I've got to respond to it because, you know, we don't do enough, as everyone knows, we don't do enough on Patreon for our wonderful supporters. But, you know, it's been amazing to have that, you know, support. But the, I mean, in that time, I'm just intrigued to know, you know, I'm very aware of that, say 2015 to now, the last 10 years, the changes I've seen in the UK and in Europe in particular, and I have seen them here, but in a much more kind of, you know, I've just had little glimpses, I feel. But there's been a fairly fundamental big shift in Australia. I mean, I don't want to overblow it, but there's definitely, it's. Electric vehicles have made an impact. There's no one in Australia who doesn't know what you mean when you say electric vehicle. They may hate them, but they know they exist.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (7:09)

Well, and, and I think that that certainly has played into that. They're a lot more visible, they're a lot more everyday as well as, you know, they were a bit more specialized. I think there'd be very few Australians who haven't sat in the back of A, an ATTO 3 as an Uber or something like that. So there's a, and certainly the, the cost savings of running one for, for drive ride share is, is, you know, compelling. So pretty much everyone's experienced them at least as a passenger. There are many, many now on the street. When I bought my first car, I was the second EV in the suburb in the postcode. Pretty much not saying I was early as well. And now, I mean there's, I think seven on my block. So there's been a distinct change and you can see that in terms of the numbers, but also just, you know, I was blown away the last few weeks, the number of sea lion sevens I've seen on the road, and they've really only came to market here less than a year ago. So just seeing the way that Australia is adopting and happily choosing to drive electric, I think is very exciting. And the last year has shown some big leaps and bounds and we've really seen manufacturers bring new models and new different segment vehicles as well. So now we're seeing a big diversity. So when you go to the car park, it's not just four Teslas in a row and a Ioniq 5. There'll be many. There'll be BYDs and MGs and IMs and all of the above and. And the occasional one that you have to sort of stop and think. I thought I knew what EVs were on the market, but that one doesn't have a tailpipe and I don't know what it is.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (8:53)

Yes, I do that. That definitely happens here. Every time I come here, I go, I don't know what that. Why is that one? The most embarrassing one is. I think I took a picture of one, sent it to the team back in London and said, back in the uk, so, you know, what's this? And they said, you've already driven one. So that's. That's when you know you're getting on a bit. I can't remember what it was. I forgot. Oh, no, it's gone well. Yeah, there you go. I can't remember. I did know for a moment what it was, but that. But also that said, I think that's the big shift, because I think. I think I. I can't even remember when it was, but possibly 10 years ago, I contacted someone at Tesla in Sydney and they said, we want. We. Do you want to go to Brisbane in a Model X? Because we need it delivered there. And I went, oh, my God. Yeah, all right, we'll drive it up there. Know. So that long ago there was a Tesla superchargers up right up the coast. You know, you could do it. It was easy. It wasn't a struggle to do it, it was very easy to do. But that. That was the only electric car I would think I saw on that trip. Or it may be some other Teslas. It would only have been Teslas then, you know, so I'm thinking around 2015, when I was visiting that. But that has changed so much now that the route that I know well is Brisbane to Sydney and back. And it's just extraordinary how many chargers there are, how many different electric cars, how many different brands there are. That's a big shift. It feels like you've got More choice here than we have in the uk, which I'm not sure is true, but you've certainly got a lot of a wide variety of cars available that would.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (10:30)

Be interesting to look at. Actually. We have a lot of models and a lot of manufacturers in the market now and, and it's significantly increased in the last year. So the last 12 months, since maybe the last time you had a really good look at the market, it's significantly expanded with new models and new manufacturers.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (10:49)

Right. Because I've just seen there's a list in the best selling EVs in Australia according to carexpert.com au but I mean, and it's not surprising. The top sort of three or four, you know, you would know what you expect. Tesla, byd, Kia, mg, know they're in the top bracket. What is absolutely extraordinary is right down the bottom, I think they've sold. I think it was 16 is Rolls Royce.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (11:18)

I thought there was only one. I've only seen one.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (11:20)

Well, I would have thought there's only one, but it says 16. I can't. I'm not quite sure what that means.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (11:24)

That's fantastic though. I mean it's, it's not an everyday vehicle, that's for sure. It really shows that we're getting evs into, you know, really quite niche segments as well as broad expansion, which. Because, I don't know, something that's changed. Yeah.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (11:38)

What would the Rolls Royce cost here? I mean, it's insanely expensive. I can't even remember. A couple of million dollars, isn't it? I don't know.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (11:45)

Yeah. From memory there's a sticker price that starts under. But once you start adding, you know, wheels and seats and you know, starlight roof and things like that, it would go up and. But again, that, that's fantastic because that is a segment of the market that now we can electrify.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (12:02)

Yeah. But then, so the general kind of public attitude and this is something I, you know, experienced very strongly in the, like in the 2010s early sort of, you know, between 2010 and 2015, this really noticeable shift in, in, in attitudes, which was, you know, pretty universally negative to start with. And then it was sort of, you know. Yeah, they work, but I. They're not right for me or they're not there yet, but they weren't. There wasn't the same hostility. There was kind of real proper. They're rubbish, they don't work. And it's a con, you know, like a con job was the only thing. Where is Australia on that sort of spectrum of acceptance is it?

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (12:44)

I, I guess, I mean when the first cars came out they were the imeven and I mean the, I mean is a great little car, but it is certainly not for, for every use case and every driver. And they did look quite distinctive and people would have looked at them as something, you know, that's different from what I would drive as a, as a daily driver. And now they're, they're much more, you know, we still have distinctive looking vehicles, but we have ones that are. If you didn't know it was electric, you wouldn't know it. It's electric, you know, so I think that's helped in terms of we see the distinctive vehicles but we also see, you know, just the everyday vehicles. What, what I'd probably say is that we, we went from, from dismissive and you know, and probably fairly rightly so because we didn't have a broad offer here in Australia.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (13:35)

Yeah.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (13:36)

And then we went through. That's interesting. But you know, for the majority of people, relatively irrelevant to the point where we now have a fairly polarized I guess perspective on it. Which is interesting because the general, the general public, their, you know, they sort of fall into two camps. It's either, I don't care it's a car, you know, A to B, school run, whatever, or you know, very, very focused on what they're buying. And, and so the ones that are in that, that camp, you know, they're not really looking at, at what the propulsion is or, or the brand or anything like that. But we do certainly see a polarization that has previously aligned with brands and, and now I think is more aligning with, with powertrains. And so that from, from the perspective of the, the media response and social media response I think has probably shown more polarization and probably more activity as well on both the positives and negatives. I mean one interesting thing I'd say from the social media side is just, you know, we were talking about starting the channel back in the 2010s. The number of individual content creators in Australia who are doing EV related information just, you know, walk arounds, things like that has, has also exploded. So the amount of positive media in social media is, is enormous. But as well as that we're also seeing some quite strong perceptions and, and drive and, and you know, probably a stronger opposition is, is what I'd say than we've seen in the past.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (15:11)

All right, you think that's, it's actually increased a bit the, the opportunity.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (15:14)

I think it, I think it has and it's actually EVs are really starting to take market share now.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (15:21)

Yeah.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (15:22)

And we've seen that even the last few weeks with the numbers coming out, tremendous growth. EVs have been growing strongly. We now have a lot more options on the market and there's been quite a strong sort of. Wasn't really what we hoped it would be and things like that. I think that's deliberately chosen.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (15:44)

Yeah. I mean, because it's impossible not to see the phenomenal advantages for Australians. I mean, it's just something I've been doing. So last week I went to a really huge solar farm in, in New South Wales on a scale, you know, when you go. When you're actually in amongst. It was nearly a million solar panels. It's a lot. It goes on a long way and it's generating enough power, electricity. It's so quarter of a million houses, which I, I hate the way that, that, that sort of that's used. You know, what does it have? You know, there's so many variants in a house. But anyway, you know, but it's obviously a lot of electricity. But you know that also you. That chart. You can charge your car at your house if you've. If you're lucky enough to have a house with the driveway and you've got solar panels. You know, when the people I know who made. Made money, they've got an electric car, they've got solar panels, they've got a battery in their house and they get paid for doing that. Which is an economic model that is quite a challenge to the incumbent technologies of copper and coal or gas. It's difficult to argue with that and it absolutely is.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (16:56)

I mean, we could go into a whole conversation around renewable energy and the transition in Australia on that side. But I think we have such a high penetration of rooftop solar in Australia. Yeah, we have such a high excess of rooftop solar energy at different times of the day and as a result that means our power price goes on a wholesale negative. I'm in South Australia, so it is pretty much every day this time of year where we have more than the state demand just met from rooftop. So what do we need to do? Well, we actually need to consume that. So electric vehicles are a big part of. Of us consuming the abundance of effectively free energy that we have. And that's overall solar. Just in terms of. In individual houses. I mean, one in. I think it's one in four houses has solar in Australia. One in three. I might have got those numbers wrong.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (17:51)

I think it was one in four I've certainly seen that figure, which is phenomenal.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (17:55)

So it's phenomenal. And it does mean that not only do you effectively get to drive for free on yesterday's sunshine, but in certain wholesale electricity plans you actually get paid to charge. Yeah, not a huge amount, but it's kind of nice to say my weekly commute I was paid, you know, 75 cents for. And that's a real example from, from last week, I charged both my EVS and I got paid 75 cents for the privilege of it.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (18:23)

Wow. So, yeah, it is extraordinary, isn't it? Yeah, it is.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (18:26)

I mean, I think that does help. Yeah.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (18:28)

Yes, I think, and I think that sort of the argument that I've always used for people who are sort of going, you know, oh, I miss changing gear. And I go, that's fine, I completely sympathize with you. And you, I demand that you have the right to change gear. But just think about how we get the fuel that we burn in our combustion cars. And it doesn't mean where, you know, whatever the arguments are, you're not producing enough oil in Australia to, to run all the cars here. So. But you could produce all the electricity that, you know, that's. And that means that that money isn't leaving your economy. I mean, there are very good, like global corporate level economic arguments for electric ground transport.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (19:14)

I mean that. So that's a great sort of segue into AVA was actually started 52 years ago during the oil price shocks. So we're the world's longest continuously running electrical association. Wow. So, yeah. 1973, a group of concerned citizens looked at how oil price was being manipulated by the, the, the, the manufacturers or producers and exporters of it at the time and realized that as a nation, an island nation, you know, we really need to look at sovereign capability. We need to look at, you know, how do we ensure that we have fuel security? Because at the time, and significantly now, every bit of food, every, everything that comes into the country and everything that we buy or need or even sell has to be transported somehow because again, we're an island and we're quite spread out as well. So they looked at that in the 1970s and said, there's got to be a better way. And they formed either back then in 1973 specifically in response to national security, supply chain security, and increasingly since then, emissions. And now what we know very much about the harm of burning fossil fuels and also really realizing the cost difference as well. And we're just talking about that. So from the perspective of I'm here in South Australia. We have so much abundant energy at different times of the day that the ability for us to turn that into transport is incredible. So.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (20:56)

Yes, but that is just. I didn't realize that it had been going that long. That is incredible. A really important aspect of what you're doing then. I mean, what I also find a bit shocking is I can remember 1973 quite clearly, which I'm afraid age, you know, I do remember well, I remember cycling past like literally a mile long queue outside a petrol filling station with people waiting cars and they were pushing the cars because they had, they'd all run out. And that really, that's always stayed with me, that sort of, you know, I was completely very unaffected by being a teenager without a care in the world, you know, but I could see the impact that had on the world and the shops were empty and the lights were going out. I mean it was a pretty chaotic time in the uk, which as a teenager of course I loved. But I can see even then, oh, there's some people having less fun than me at the moment with all this.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (21:53)

Well, the streets are quieter when you're on your push bike, but yeah, yeah, that's for sure. You might not be able to get dinner at home that night. And no, I think that that ability to have fuel independence is, is a critical part of. Yes, broadly we are about electrification of transportation vehicles. Electric vehicles are, you know, generally considered to be the consumer vehicles that we drive. But yeah, we, we care about electrification of trains, we care about electrification of aviation etc and, and being so long running has allowed the association to evolve as opportunities have changed. Look at, initially looking at how, I mean, how would you get an electric vehicle in, in the 1980s where you'd build it yourself? 1990s you build it yourself. 2000s we started building it and actually selling it and then 2010, as I mentioned, is when the imeeve came to market and from then it's been a slow pivot and now rapidly more to focus on consumers and how consumers can capture the benefits of electrification and the transition that we're going through.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (23:06)

This episode is brought to you by Hong Kong. The Hankook Ion tyre is built exclusively for electric vehicles, engineered to deliver what EV drivers need most confident grip, quietness, energy efficiency and long mileage. As the official tyre partner of Formula E HongKook proves its EV technology is at the highest level of performance and brings that same innovation to every ion tyre on the road. Because, I mean that's when you think back to the the time that the. The association was founded there. I think I've got somewhere archive footage from the 1970s of just, I mean, really nerdy cars, but with lead acid batteries and they all look like a block of cheese. They're all very flat and straight and they got terrible doors and rubbish. You. I mean, they were. This is in the uk, you know, they were made by automotive engineers looking for alternatives. So that. And it was always kind of well promoted on the BBC going, in the future we could all be driving cars like this. And you look at it going, I don't think we will. That is 50 years ago. You know, it's terrifying prospect.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (24:22)

Imagine if, if 50 years ago we had access to, you know, the high performance, the luxury, the safety, the utility of the vehicles that are on the market today. It was probably better back then to be saying, one day you'll be driving an electric wedge of cheese to. Than actually saying. Because it really would have blown people's minds if they saw what the driver.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (24:43)

Yeah, if you could see. Yes. If you could see a Polestar 5.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (24:47)

Yes.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (24:47)

Which I've actually driven. I'm very lucky. I've driven my. They are extraordinary. But that. So that is. But that is fascinating. So the association has evolved in that time because I can remember I got given a lift, I think, in Melbourne and I wish you probably know the gentleman concerned who converted a Mercedes to electric drive and he wanted me to have a ride in it. He picked me up from a hotel and drove me to the airport when I was leaving Melbourne and I afraid I can't. And that was 12 plus years ago. But, you know, he'd done the conversion and I had to look under the bonnet, under the front was the batteries and he'd done the whole thing and it was. It did go wrong at one point. It did stop, but he got it going again. But was there quite a large movement of people doing that in Australia?

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (25:37)

There certainly was a significant movement of people who saw the vehicle that they liked but couldn't get the drivetrain they were looking for. And that still continued quite strongly within Ava. So we still have a lot of people now it's more about converting classics. So, you know, we have a large historical run here in South Australia called the Beta Birdwood. There are, I think it's a thousand cars.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (26:02)

It's.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (26:03)

It's a huge field of vehicles and, you know, all kinds of vintage vehicles and. And in the last couple of years, you know, we've seen the electric vehicle conversion class come through and some really amazing classic Vehicles which, which frankly 800 of the cars on the field that day would go back in the garage and then come out again in a year. Whereas the electric ones, they, they're driven home and then down to the shops. You know, they are in many cases not in all everyday usable cars.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (26:36)

Yeah.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (26:37)

Which may seem like it's, it's, you know, there's certainly some, some opposition to, to taking a classic, but frankly this is getting a car that would otherwise be a museum piece and turning into something that actually gets appreciated and enjoyed and delighted in and has utility and others. So that's a big part of the conversions that we've seen. But we've also seen members doing trucks and other vehicles that have special purpose and that is still a big part of the association and will be a great part of the association going forward.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (27:14)

Yeah. Now one of the peculiarities, which is, you know, I can keep it completely non political but you know, there is one very large country that has a lot of cars that won't allow any Chinese ones in. We don't need to go any further than that. But you know, the market here seems, I mean, can you correct me if I'm wrong, but are there zero tariffs on Chinese built electric vehicles in Australia or. I mean they're very low obviously, because I know they're cheaper here than they are in the uk.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (27:44)

I'm thinking it's dropped to zero due to a free trade. I'll confirm that one. But yeah, so we had very small tariffs on importing from a number of countries and through some free trade agreements, some of those have been taken away. But effectively a Chinese vehicle or a manufacturer from any other part of the world is on a relatively level playing field. Here in Australia we have high standards, we have unique Australian design rules which do make it harder for cars to come here. I know that's been a point of contention, but harder just means that, you know, we had expectations around then. They're not going to have blades at the front that slice the pedestrians and they're not going to have, you know, the wheels a meter out from the sides and, but, and, and also some boring ones like, you know, the brake lights work and they're a certain height and certain luminance and things like that. So, so we have those, so everyone needs to meet those. And we also have consumer standards, we have warranty standards and expectations as well. But broadly, once you're past that point, you're, you're in the market. We do have differential tariff, sorry, differential incentives around different types of vehicles. That are used for on road, off road, for commercial use. And currently we do have for full battery electric vehicles as well. And they are part of the government's ways of tweaking the tax base and providing support for different parts of the industry and markets.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (29:19)

All right, so if you live in Australia and you buy an electric car, brand new, do you get some tax? Not tax rebate, some government support?

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (29:31)

There are benefits up to a certain threshold if you buy it on a novated lease. So if your employer acquires the car for you, and the benefits make it not only less expensive for the employee, but they also make it easier for the employer, reducing compliance costs, et cetera. So that does exist at the moment is under review. It's one of those interesting things where it's like for example, solar and batteries and things like that. In Australia it's been wildly successful because Australians, pragmatically, we see the value, we go on to it. And at the same time, you know, you hear the media reports of it's wildly successful and too successful and also no one wants it.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (30:13)

Yeah, no one wants electric cars. And why are all these people giving government money? They met thousands of them.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (30:19)

All these is, I mean it, it the way it's applied, it's driving the secondhand market. So it's predominantly going into fleets. But it also means that people who have the access to this kind of structure that wouldn't otherwise be able to afford a new electric vehicle or a new vehicle in general are now able to do so because it makes it easier for their employer, it makes it less expensive for them. And that means that nurses and paramedics and teachers and other people have access to, or may have access to, not financial advice, may have access to a new electric vehicle and immediately reduce their running costs, immediately reduce their emissions. I mean, I love seeing EVs in school car parks, knowing that you don't have emissions within proximity, the classrooms, et cetera.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (31:13)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But that is, I mean that's something that I remember discussing when I was here last year was that it was around that time that we had the first really noticeable tranche of second hand EVs coming on the market because of corporate leasing. So they'd been leased for three years for, you know, employees of the companies and they got rid of. And it was quite bad planning because it was an enormous amount of vehicles very, very suddenly. But and the price of second hand vehicles, secondhand electric vehicles dropped and everyone said they got no residual value and all that stuff. And it's actually all it's done ever since then is it's gone back up the second hand price because there is a demand for it and if there's a demand for it then prices seem to rise in a capitalist economy. But that, but they, the amount of people I've, I know of anecdotally who've bought a second hand EV is extraordinary because I didn't, none of us knew anyone who did that because there weren't any, you know. So the second hand market I think is critically important. So is there now a sort of noticeable secondhand market in Australia?

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (32:21)

Yeah, absolutely, there's thousands. If you go to our main car selling websites, if you go to the auctions, there's, there's literally thousands of second hand evs available and you know, most of them are in the, it's been used for a few years, someone's moved on kind of phase. So there's, there's, there's, yeah literally thousands on, on the market and, and initially it was very much again the Teslas because they were the main ones on the market and now because of some of these cycles in the fleets are much shorter. You're seeing a lot more of the newer brands in, in, in the secondhand market as well. The other thing that was a thing and then everyone realized it wasn't, was a lot of noise around secondhand battery health. And you know what happens when I'm buying it and you know what's, what's.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (33:09)

I had to buy a new battery on day two. Yes.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (33:12)

And, and exactly. And I mean no one's ever bought a secondhand car and then had to replace the transmission the next day or anything like that. So very cleverly the battery health certificates and battery testing has come into the market and the auctions and the dealers that are providing that they've just wiped out the concerns because now you have a piece of paper, it's tested, you know about it and that's something that is really about the last 12 months where it's become ubiquitous in, in, in a number of those spaces especially around fleet sales and it's just taken that concern away and that, I mean that's been fantastic for driving the second hand market as well. And I mean frankly I, I've got, I've got a, a 2019 Model 3 that is not really worth a lot if I was to sell it now.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (34:07)

Right.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (34:08)

And you know if someone got that that would be an absolute bargain of a car at roughly what it, what it's for. But I think now with a lot more options on the market, and especially with less expensive EVs really filling out the bottom end, you know, we're really seeing that you've got the secondhand market, you've got some great choices at the different tiers there. You've got the new market. You can go from entry level all the way up to the Rolls Royce that we were talking about earlier. Yes. So there's the choices there on both sides.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (34:38)

Yeah, no, that is fantastic that that's happening and that also that, you know, when I sometimes will hear a criticism about I have to replace the batteries. I mean, you know, you have to kind of. I have to breathe, do a breathing exercise because I. You'll be the same. I lived with combustion engine vehicles for 40, whatever years and I know that they all went wrong all the time and they constantly needed servicing and oil filters and oil changes and timing belts and you know, the amount of stuff and money I spent to maintain vehicles that were quite cheap to buy, but they cost a lot of money to operate because of that, because of the constant breakdown. I mean, one very memorable thing is driving my mother in a. This is when I was very young in a Morris van and the whole exhaust, the whole exhaust fell off and it slid down the road behind me. I had to stop and I put it in the back. So I drove a Morris van with no exhaust with my 70 year old mother and the fumes in the car were so overwhelming we had to drive with our heads out of the window to get home. That stuff happened all the time with all the cars I had. I mean, they were disastrous.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (35:48)

I remember a similar incident. My father looked at my car once and said, I think your exhaust's got a hole in it. And he kicked it and then his foot went straight through it. And all of a sudden I had to budget for a new exhaust system which weren't che.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (36:02)

I mean even then they were. It wasn't a cheap thing to replace that. I remember doing it.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (36:06)

I think that that's, that's really become an advantage as well. In the secondhand side. There's certainly been some, some concern around the industry about, well, how do we maintain it, et cetera. And that's something else that's changed in the last year. We've seen the associations that look after mechanics and dealer networks, et cetera, supply chain really step up in terms of training their people. And we've had hybrids on the market for 25 years, so. So a certain part of the market has always known about high, high voltage battery, you know, management, things like that. But we've really seen the, the broader industry get training or access to training if they choose to take it up. And that I think will continue to increase over the next year or two as well. Because that's something in the secondhand market is, is, you know, managing through that, that life cycle of the car. Even if you're not worrying about oil filters and, and you know, blown turbos and things like that. There are still suspension components, there's still repair steering, brakes. Yeah, there's wear parts, there's, you know, seat frames, things like that, that wear over time and, and those are things that, you know, because it's much less complex because there's been less on the market, there's been less attention to it. And now with the, the influx of vehicles and reaching some critical mass points within the national fleet, you know, we're really seeing that, that step up as well. So that's really good news and great if you're buying secondhand as well.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (37:35)

Yes. And I mean it's also, I think that's the thing I've been saying for the last couple of years is to anyone you know that ever asks anything about secondhand vehicles, I go, don't worry, you know, all I ask is don't worry about the battery. The rest of the car, everything can go wrong. You know, that can all break. The battery is the least of your worries. You know, worry about the steering, the brakes, the stuff suspension, the lights, the electronics, the software, you know, there's plenty of stuff. If you want to be anxious about an electric car to be anxious about, but the battery isn't one of them, that's fine.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (38:05)

There was a big campaign last year about if you buy it as a secondhand ev, you'll have to go and get the brakes replaced. And, and that one lasted for seconds until everyone said no, you don't.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (38:19)

Yeah. It's so weird, isn't it? It is strange that that, I mean the weird stuff stories and ideas that come out about them. You know, the idea of it's electric cars that make all the potholes. Oh. So the, the 45 ton truck that has no impression as that goes along the road, you know.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (38:37)

Yeah.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (38:38)

Anyway. Yes. I don't want to get too, too moany, too whiny about it. The, the thing I think I've noticed particularly this year being here this year that has been reassuring is that charging it, the kind of public charging infrastructure, not so much that there's, I think there is more of it, but I can use more of it as a, as A visitor because that, you know, that can be very frustrating. But my worst ever experience was in New Zealand at a BP Charge Master charger at a BP garage. I have the BP Charge Master app on my phone, but my phone's British. You can't download it. I cannot download the New Zealand or Australian version. It won't let me because it's the wrong phone, you know, like what that just let me pay for the electricity, you know, I'll give you money if you let me.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (39:32)

Sorry.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (39:32)

Yeah, yes, exactly. It's this. And I mean that is so much better here now. So much easier to, to deal with. I'm not going to mention the charging people but you know, the ones that I've used have one, they've always worked and two, they've been easy to use and it's, it's got better. Yeah, I mean I had a general.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (39:51)

Experience in Scotland a couple of years ago. Can't download the app. You can't use a credit card Back then there were no credit cards on credit card readers, etc. New Zealand's an interesting one. There is the, the predominant charge operator there is fantastic. It's everywhere, it's fast, it's, it's brilliant. But if you're an Aussie, you have to remember how to put your phone number in and then, then everything works and I mean that's a really simple, really simple thing. And then, and then I mean I've driven Polestar 2 around New Zealand and, and you know, had no issues whatsoever.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (40:27)

Right.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (40:27)

Once I worked out that, that one secret trick for Australians to charge in New Zealand.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (40:32)

Right.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (40:32)

And I think so that there's a couple of things to, to unwrap there. I mean, definitely that visitor experience, that first time that you use an ev, you haven't got the apps, et cetera. I think there's opportunity for us to do more on that and we've seen the plug and charge approach which Tesla have taken, that works brilliantly. If you're a Tesla driver, they're pretty good if you're not Tesla, but you don't get that experience. Another One of the CPOs in Australia, EV has introduced that as well. That works great. Requires a little bit more effort to set up than just buying the car, but once you've done it, it's the same kind of thing.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (41:13)

So that when you say that, that's like you drive up to the charger, you take the charger off, plug it in your car and it starts charging and you do nothing.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (41:20)

Bill for the account associated with the car. Yeah. So, so that, that experience, I think the best experience is, is the tap and charge where there is a card reader. So you could be from anywhere as long as you've got a card, credit or debit card with RFID on it and then you just tap your card and fill the car up. I think that's the best experience for people who are unfamiliar. But I've got to say the best experience, if you were familiar, is the plug and charge experience. And the middle is having the right apps and I think over time we'll see more federation or consolidation on that side that will make that side of it easier unless we see a national requirement around tap to charge. But I think we've got a little bit of work to do on generally the layouts of charging. So here in South Australia, for example, the primary charging network here rea have a really big focus on disability access. They have dedicated disability spots at all of their charges where one of the interesting things about that is they don't have the wheel barriers, they only have bump stops. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. So. So by doing that you don't have to get your wheelchair over a, you.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (42:36)

Know, a big jump, a big lump. Yes. Crazy. Yeah.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (42:39)

And there's more space around it and, and other things and it's accessible, it's visible. It's not always where you'd expect, it's not always on the main street, the petrol stations are. But they, they're more focus on good lighting and services nearby and, and I think that that's an evolution. So that's in terms of the charging experience but in terms of the number of charges. So I saw a number from Karlie, we've, I think we've doubled in the last year. And the really interesting thing is in 23, 24 and in through the 24, 25 holiday period, which is effectively a year ago, we saw a lot of news, a lot of press where people would show a line of cars and then, you know, 90 minute wait and things like that waiting year ago. And you know, a great example of that one is, there's, there's the. What was the last charger on the way from Melbourne to Adelaide was in Keith and that specific charger there was, you know, it appeared in the news a bit where there was a line of cars. It was put in in 2017, it had four dispensers on it. It was busy in the last year. There's now, if you just look, an hour and a half's drive on either side of it. There's now 10 new sites.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (43:57)

Wow.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (43:59)

Chargers.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (44:00)

Yeah.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (44:00)

So if that one's busy, the next one is literally three blocks away.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (44:05)

Yes.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (44:06)

And the next one is, you know, an hour at absolute most drive away. But really if you're going east, it's about 20 minutes drive away. So we've gone from, well, actually your only choice is to stand there at a queue to there's now lots of choice. And I think that's really changed in the last year. We've really seen the charge port operators and it would be fair to say in response to the market existing now and growing substantially. So they're obviously investing in a sensible way where the market exists, but we've really seen that investment and that growth of not just this charger now has more, you know, more, more handles on it. It's actually. Well, there's another charge network that's in the next block and another one. And so if you don't have that app, then that app is going to work. Or if you're. You have some, some reason why you don't want to use that one, then that one's your choice. Or yeah, if that one's busy and I love the Keith one because there's a really good coffee nearby, which is important when you're leaving early in the morning to drive to Melbourne or Sydney. But if, if that one's busy, you just drive on and. And that, I think, has been a really noticeable difference in the last year. And, you know, now if you want to circumnavigate Australia, with a couple of exceptions, and I can talk to them, that's so, so, you know, so much coverage that, that I think 60 or 70 people have done it in EVs.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (45:38)

Yes. Because I was, I was desperate to be the first person to drive around Australia, you know, in an ev. And I mean, by the time I finished saying that sentenced about 20 people had already done it.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (45:49)

I think the first one was 2011 or something like that. Inverted MG. Yeah, yeah, it might, might be, it might be a little bit late for that. But at the same time, you know, if you're feeling like 15 and a half thousand kilometer drive, I can highly recommend it take.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (46:07)

No, I would love to do it. I will. I haven't got a bucket list. I've got a sort of thimble list. It's very short, but I would love to do that. One of the things that I experienced, which I think is worth mentioning in relation to charging when I recently drove quite a long way more than I normally would to go and film at this Huge solar farm. And the night before that I'd found. I wasn't even looking for it, but I noticed a hotel had charges and I went, oh, I'll stay there. Or it was a motel and I can't even remember a tenterfield. It was somewhere around that area. And I went, oh, it's got charges. Oh, I'll stay there. That makes it easy. Stop there. There was a charger. I plugged it in. They. I said, how much is it? He said, it's free. I went, oh, it's nice. Thank you very much. Wasn't free because I paid for the. To stay there, but it was cheap. And then I. And then the next night I booked a hotel because it was on the, the route, you know, it was on the way I was traveling and I drove in and there were three chargers up on the wall and I said, can I use them? Oh, yeah, help yourself, mate. And so two nights I filled the car completely full and didn't, you know, so I. I don't know how many miles or kilometers it was, but a lot that I didn't, I didn't wait and I didn't have to pay for, which. But I mean, that is something we've. I've spoken to, particularly hotel people in the UK who, you know, who put charges in there, just. And I'm talking 22 kilo or 11 or 22 kilowatt charges, not rapid char charges, destination charges. And they said they're always full every night, which means that they've. They've got five or six customers, regardless of it, you know, because people will go, I'll go there because they've got the charges, you know. Yeah, but I haven't seen so much of that here. It's become quite a common thing. Restaurants, particularly restaurants and, and hotels will have, you know, somewhere in the corner of the car park, a load of charges.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (48:00)

Yeah, I think that. So destination charges started reasonably early. There was a program with Tesla, I think Porsche did some as well when they did the tycoon launch. So. And the. And tourism boards have been involved in that where it's a tourism destination. But there's. That was sort of then not really invested in for about five years. So we're now seeing the sort of second resurgence of that in hotels, et cetera, and most of the sites. If you go to Airbnb, booking.com, you can choose to filter. I'd like to have an ev. I do think that's. That's something that, that, you know, will probably be the Next year or so. So seeing investment in destination charging, New South Wales are doing grant around tourism related charging. So they're looking at, they've got a great charging network but if you're there for tourism as distinct for transit than for transit, then how do they make sure they fill that in? So it's certainly happening. Yeah. And yeah, exactly. Often when you see it, it's full. So where it's provided, it's full.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (49:07)

Yes, yes, that's true. Yeah.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (49:10)

There's still some disinformation, I'd say that. So there's still some, you know, early days you'd go to a caravan park with a powered side and you plug in there and stay overnight and you know, there's definitely opportunity to work with caravan park owners and say this is actually something you can offer to your customers as well without spending a cent. And so I think things like that are worth focusing on as well and they're certainly in discussion with us within Ava.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (49:38)

Yes. And I actually think because the last couple of times I've used chargers like destination charges at a hotel, I have paid for it. So I think the era of the free charger because you're a customer may, may come to an end sadly because, but, but anyway it was, it was free then. It was really good there and I, I don't know what the proportion. I mean the other aspect which we always hear about both here and in Canada everywhere is I've. I'd love an electric car but I can't park off the street and I've got nowhere to charge it. Blah, blah. But on equally I, I meet so many people who've got an electric car and they can't park it off the street and they still use it. So it is, you know, it depends on your attitude to it. But I can't, I mean it makes a huge difference if you have to charge it. If you only charge it using the public charging network is. It's just more expensive for a start. Nothing else and more hassle.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (50:35)

I mean there's definitely. Is there. If you're always fast charging at a premium location, it will not be nearly as inexpensive as if your destination charging at your office or if you're charging from your solar panels at home.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (50:50)

Yeah.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (50:51)

So definitely it changes the economic choices and if economy is your primary driver, you know, you would, would have a significant swing there. Yeah, I think it's something like. We've got something like 70% of our houses are detached.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (51:09)

In the vast majority you can park off the street.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (51:12)

Yeah, yeah. So they Have a land with a house on the land. And in the vast majority of instances there will be a drive driveway or, you know, just drive up onto your front lawn sort of thing. Yeah, so. So there are a lot of houses that we can already cover and for the. The rest of them, the townhouses, semi detached duplex and apartments. There are a number of different solutions that are coming to market and this is really sort of that. That next step. So we're seeing a lot more of the younger families or retirees and others that are looking at, well, how do I go electric? I'm in an apartment or I'm in a block of flats or something like that. And so there's a few things in there. So we've seen some real innovation in Australia, predominantly in trial at the moment. So some examples of that. There's a company called VCSA that do a swing arm that.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (52:09)

Oh yeah, yeah, we saw it. It was at our show in, In Melbourne. Amazing. Yeah. What a good. And a friend of ours bought. Bought an electric car and the arm as a result. Okay. I've done a little news report about it. No, it was really, it was remarkable. It's a very old friend of my wife's never had an electric car. She test drove one and she bought the. I can't. What's. Oh, yeah, that. You mentioned the name of the company and they were there at the show and it was such an easy thing to use. Loads of people having a go and they. And the response. Response was. So everybody got it. Oh, and it's right out there. It's not gonna hit. No one's gonna trip over it. It's right out the way. Yeah, it's very clever idea.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (52:45)

It is. If your property has a frontage on.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (52:48)

The street, which she does have. Yeah, so, yeah, absolutely.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (52:51)

The other things, if your property has a frontage on the street. So we have galley charging. So yeah. A number of councils are doing trials, Gully Turbocharged. Other organizations that are doing where they'll either cut into the footpath and put a cover on it and you run your own cable from your property. Or alternatively the councils will let you run your cable across the footpath. But you need to put a thing. Barrier or something like that. Yeah. Over it. And those are predominantly in trial at the moment with the councils. But, you know, I really think it'll be a mix of all of the above. Yeah, there's. There's another. And. And if you don't have that, then there's also charge sharing like IDGO and others. That it's like, well, I don't have a charger, I can't park in front of my house. And that's another point is in Australia we don't have reserved parking places on the street with very few exceptions. So you won't necessarily park in front of your house every night. So being able to do things like share that charger, one of your neighbors says, hey, I got to your house first. Do you mind if I pay you some for use of it? Things like that. Yeah, I think all of these solutions have to come together to work.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (54:03)

Yeah.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (54:04)

Things like cutting through, cutting through footpaths you have, you need to use. Right. Contractors you might have, you know, some parts of Sydney and, and even near where I live have heritage registered curbs. So bluestone curbs which are terrible on wheels and tires I might point out. You know, you get very careful with them but you're not allowed to cut through them because they're 100.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (54:28)

Fair enough. Yeah, absolutely.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (54:30)

So, so we'll need all of those solutions as well as that in you know, an apartment charging and, and stratas the solutions around from, from different companies like Ready Steady, Plaga, Alchemy, Charge and, and, and many others that, that, that have different solutions for different ways of solving for that. But I guess what, what we've seen is and I'm not sure strata is a term that's commonly used outside of Australia, but strata common property management. So you know, right. Where you have a group of houses that have a corporation that manages the common driveway and common parking area and things like that.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (55:10)

Is that the, the body corporate? Is that corporate?

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (55:13)

Yeah, yeah.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (55:15)

We don't quite have the same in the uk. No. But I do understand it. Yeah.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (55:19)

Yeah. So, so that's, that's that they have different laws. Every one of those has their own, is their own association and every state has their own management of that. So working through with how those stratas and corporations can allow charging or support it. And what's really happened so far is usually the first person in the apartment complex or group that wants to put in charging goes and makes it for themselves and that's great. But then the next person, there's no room in the board or there's, you know, they've taken, they've done the wrong thing or something like that. So we've gone from solving individually to. Well actually now we really need to start solving more corporately. And so we encourage anyone who's in a strata or owners corporate. I mean Ava has resources around this and our members have Gone through this. We also have business members who consult and work in this space. But that's, that's a challenge in, in the next sort of group. Yeah. So I think all of those, and actually one I didn't mention is there's also pole charging. So there's a pole charging trial with EVX in New South Wales, Victoria and South Australia. They've rolled out 250 pole charges. And I was in London a couple of years ago and I was just stunned at the number of. You know, it's not the, there's one on the block. It's like this, the parking spot. This parking lot. In this parking spot.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (56:54)

Yeah.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (56:55)

And that's, I think, where we need to get to. But that, that has complexities in Australia around who owns the pole, who owns the charger, who has the retail relationship with the customer, who maintains, you know, make good and things like that, liability, etc. So, so I think that's really interesting that will sort of work through over time as well. So we have a lot of things that are happening around that next tier and I guess sort of the last point in that is about a third of all Australians rent. So even once you've solved for all of those, do you have permission from your landlord to do that? And so helping them through. Well, how do you manage that discussion with your landlord? I think that will get better over time and I think we're at a point where it's a lot of individual conversations. We'd love to see. Right to charge. We'd love to see, you know, tenants being supported through the EV transition, just as we'd like to see them supported through the energy transition with, if possible, solar and batteries, energy efficiency, et cetera. Again, a lot of states, all the states have their own approach to this, so that's something that we're really looking to as well. So. Yeah, but at the end of the day, about 80 to 90% of people can buy a car, park it in a driveway and charge it.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (58:19)

Yes, we shouldn't. We need to fill. There's a big gap there we can fill.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (58:23)

So we should absolutely focus on how do we help everyone. But as well as that, you know, there's a lot of people where you can right now go out and start driving electricity, saving money, saving emissions, you know, driving smoother cars. So I think that that's something we also need to keep in mind is we can actually do it now for a lot of people and we have a lot of things that we're working through, solving. And I mentioned Some companies that are all thinking about this from slightly different perspectives and coming up with really innovative ideas on how do we help everything work together.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (58:55)

Yeah. And actually one of the things that I was really impressed with, we filmed an episode about a really what in my eyes, huge tower, apartment tower in Brisbane. Brand new. And it was, and it was because they put a lot of focus on energy saving and, you know, you know, air conditioning management, so you didn't need it, it kept cooler, it was higher ceilings, all, you know, a whole array of things. But their car park, I did notice quite a few chargers as we looked around their car park. They put that, put in the wiring and the communications when they were building it so that the, so that if you wanted, if you got an electric car, you put a charger there. How do you connect it there? It was like six inches and you can connect it so. And that. But not just power, also communication, so that you can then charge for it. You know, you can have an account that is connected. And it was like, that is so obvious. Why isn't all, why don't all new buildings have that? And I mean, there are now some examples in the UK where with new housing development where they all have car charges. If you can park the car off the street, there's a charge already on the house, blah, blah. You know, it's in that kind of. I do feel that I'm probably, I know I'm not going to live long enough, but there'll come a time when there'll be a child who hasn't been born yet who goes, what, you mean you. They were like car parks with no charges? Well, what did people do?

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (60:19)

I, I find it funny because, you know, we talk about learning about how to charge and, and you know, how to, to deal with all of these different things that are so strange and unique in, in evs, my kids learned to drive in an ev. I had to take them to a petrol station and say, and you know.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (60:36)

This is how you buy petrol. Yeah, yeah.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (60:38)

And don't drink it, don't sniff it, don't, don't touch it, wash your hands and things like that. Because we just, we all assume that that's assumed knowledge and it's. Yeah, it's sort of like the, the smartphone, Netflix, you know, versus what the kind of discussion is. When you look back on it, you see the value of the change. When you're looking forward, you see the fear of the change.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (60:59)

Yes, yes, that is a very good. I like that as an end phrase. Change. That's very Good, because it's very. It's so hard. Well, one of example I had was I did a. I had a painting and decorating job. I was really rubbish in a very posh apartment in London when I was young. And they had a television with a tape machine, and next to the tape machine was a box which was a film. So they could put that in their machine and watch a film in their house. You know, no one, I. No one could do that. That was the first time I saw a VHS machine. And I was so utterly overwhelmed. Only really, really rich people with massive apartments in central London could afford that. And so, you know, that's, that's the, That's a boring old man anecdote, but in a sense, it shows how these things. I mean, that's what I feel. We're, we're now in a. Yeah.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (61:50)

You know, I think there was a.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (61:51)

You could have a debate 10, 12 years ago whether this, whether electric cars will actually get any traction and actually grow out of the sort of niche little corner. And I think we're so past that now. And what we're seeing now is this kind of constant development and change and, and growth and it's, and, and it's global as well. I mean, I think that's the very important. I was in China this year, last year, and then you go, I don't know why I'm even. Why are we even making a TV show about electric cars? There aren't any others. I think if you're. If I was in China, I'd be making a show about combustion cars.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (62:26)

Yeah.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (62:26)

Because they're so rare.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (62:29)

And I think, I mean, we've really seen many, many years of incremental change in vehicles, and now we're seeing a step change of innovation. And the things that have come with that, they're not all good. I mean, there's a lot of debate about touchscreens versus physical buttons, and I think that's a valid debate. There's a lot of discussion about, you know, electronic door handles versus physical door handles, and I think that's a valid discussion to have as well. And certainly, you know, as you get older and your hands get a little bit less dexterous, having more things to grip and hold on to rather than buttons to push is definitely valuable. Yeah. But, you know, broadly speaking, the transformation in drivetrain has just been incredible. And it's not a incremental improvements. And I think we've seen so many decades of, of incremental improvements that can't reach, you know, what we can do in efficiency, in emissions, in performance. And, and we're now seeing. Well, what happens if you put extra motors in the wheels. You can't do that in a combustion car.

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (63:33)

Yeah.

James Pickering, National President of AEVA (63:33)

You know what happens if you, if you have different motors for each wheel that, that you can talk back to. You know what happens. I think that the, the innovation that we've seen is remarkable and what we're going to see and the industries that will change are significant. I mean I love talking about. We have a motorsport group that, that drive EVs in motorsport and you know there's two. Two responses to that. One is that is amazing. Those things are so fast and, and they handle and you know, they stop and everything like that. And then the other response to it is yeah, how much did you pay for it?

Podcast Host (Everything Electric) (64:13)

Yes, that, that always happens. Look, we've gone over the. It's fine. We've gone over the hour change but that's. I really appreciate talking to you. It's been really good and I really want to wish the. So I can't even say Ava. I don't want to be able to say it. Yes, well, and what you've. I mean what is clearly obvious is that organization has done an enormous amount in this country for an incredible amount of time. I mean that is really. That's the big surprise takeaway for me is that you've been going for over 50 years. It's absolutely extraordinary. So yeah, all power to you and, and please keep. Keep at it. Really hope you enjoyed that. What a really fascinating discussion and how long it's been going. I didn't know that. 1973. That is proper old. There's no other electric vehicle association that old. Maybe there was one that was started up in 1901 when you had an electric car with a big baker like knob that you turned it on with. I've seen some of those. Anyway, that's all. I'm not going to do anything about subscribing because I've done that before we started. Really hope that some of you in Australia can get along to the show in Sydney in March. And we've got lots of shows coming up in the UK over the summer, the British summer, the Australian winter and that's all for now. As always. If you have been. Thank you for watching.

Joe from Vanta (65:38)

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