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Everything Electric Podcast
Australia’s EV Battleground: Tesla, BYD & the Electric Price War!
01:10:19
In this episode, Robert Llewellyn sits down with Feann Torr from to unpack the electric vehicle revolution transforming Australia. From BYD and MG to Tesla and Hyundai, they discuss how Chinese automakers are shaking up the industry and driving EVs...
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign welcome to the Everything Electric podcast. Pretty clear over the last few years that electric car sales have increased around the world wherever they are on sale. Who's absolutely not universal. There's plenty of countries that have either very few or no electric cars cars but the ones that do those numbers are constantly increasing and it's really fascinating to follow this around the world. It's not uniform. Some countries are advancing very quickly. The obvious ones being Norway where they're now over 90. I think it's over 95% of all new cars sold in Norway are electric and their percentage of their electric fleet is just ridiculous. China very close second on a which is a colossal market. I mean Norway is very small. China is mind boggling the amount they're selling millions of electric cars every month. Literally. I'm not making that up, that is an actual fact. This country, the uk the market is still growing at a very healthy rate. Even was actually gone up a bit because there's now some government grants for some cars. There's I think a general state of anxiety and pessimism around the world regarding just everything, just regarding this survival prospects of the human race. But if you focus your, if you put your big blinkers on and just look at electric ground transport, it is growing which is fantastic and really important and it does make a difference. And the amount of oil we are burning every day is reducing it's by infinitesimally small amounts but it is now measurable. And I like to look at other countries around the world and the one, the two markets I'm most familiar with I suppose are Europe, the European, the broader, broader European market and Australia due to my family connections with Australia. And so today I'm talking to Fian Tor who is involved in an amazing company in Australia called Car Sales Australia and they sell cars, they sell all sorts of cars. They're not exclusively electric but they have noticed a marked increase in interest in electric cars plus a massive increase in the range, the types of models, the different, you know, different cars that are available now and becoming cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. So I've just driven a car, I'm not going to talk about it now, just driven a car today where the electric version is the cheapest of its range of drivetrain. So there's a hybrid version, 2,000 pounds more expensive than the electric one. This is what we're going to see, the petrol ones, they don't even make them. That's what is happening now. But from now on electric cars will be the cheaper option. If you go into a showroom and you look at the flashy, brand new twinkling cars. The electric one will be the cheaper one. And that's what they're seeing in Australia. They're seeing this enormous uptake in it. It's heading against all the headwinds that all economies are facing at the moment with the prospect of who knows what coming over the horizon. But we, we live in hope anyway. So Fian is really good, fun to talk to, really informative, very entertaining. I think you'll really enjoy this episode and we will be of course, by the time you've probably seen this, we'll be very shortly after this we'll be in Melbourne doing our first show in Melbourne, Victoria in Australia, which is very exciting and a massive array of electric vehicles on display and available for test drives at that event. I think it's going to be huge and we're really looking forward to doing it. So without more ado, please welcome to the Everything Electric podcast Fiantor. Our three free YouTube channels on EVs and cleantech are funded by our fun packed test drivetastic events in Farnborough, London, the southwest, the North, Melbourne and Sydney. And next up, Everything Electric Melbourne and new for UK viewers. You can now buy a battery, EV and much more at EverythingElectric store. Now back to the episode, Sophie, and thank you so much for taking time to talk to us. This is a fascinating topic. I think I should explain both to you and also to all our listeners that I probably know after the uk, I know the Australian, I know the Australian market and what's going on there. Second best, being married to an Australian and having spent a lot of time there. So, so, but I'm hoping to cover all the, all the bases because, you know, you think you know what's going on there until I meet someone like you and then I go, okay, I've, I've seen some electric cars on the road and I've used a charger. That's about, that's about the top level of my skill set there. But I mean, can you, can you just give us a quick background of what you do and what you have done and what you're doing now and about the car sales, Australia, etc.
- [05:03]
B
Yeah, for sure, for sure. I'm the managing editor at Car Sales and despite the name, it's, we have a big editorial presence and you know, we're, we're fiercely independent with that and, and I actually started off my career way back when reviewing video games. Would you believe?
- [05:24]
A
Wow.
- [05:24]
B
And, and then it moved into consumer electronics. And Somehow the last 20 years I've been writing about cars and it's been very interesting in the Last few years, 10 or so years witnessing this, this change and this evolution with, with electric cars and electrified cars and, and beyond as well. I mean last mile vehicles, I mean flying cars. I was talking about that the other day. It's, it's, it's been a wild ride. So yeah, it really feels to me like this is a really exciting juncture in the automotive industry. Yeah. And certainly from where we sit in Australia we kind of like, we'll probably get into this later but we, we're getting a lot of Chinese metal so there's a lot of really interesting, really different products coming in and yeah, it's pretty, pretty cool to be able to drive a lot of these. So.
- [06:20]
A
Yeah, because I think I'm, I'm wondering how on a kind of global level because of the, you know, the restrictions on sales of Chinese cars in certain countries, we don't need to discuss, you know, whether they've gone. Okay, let's focus a little bit of attention there because it does feel like from, from my visits to Australia that, that you've got a huge range of Chinese cars in particular.
- [06:43]
B
Yes.
- [06:44]
A
That are coming there, that we still have, that we might get here one day. But because they're right hand drive, I mean that's often the restriction I think for a, for smaller markets if you want a right hand drive car, you know, in Australia, New Zealand, it's, it's more, you know, they're going oh, are we going to really rejig all our manufacturing to do right hand drive?
- [07:01]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [07:02]
A
It's quite a challenge.
- [07:03]
B
Yeah.
- [07:03]
A
But they seem to be.
- [07:05]
B
The retooling of factories in the past has been expensive and time consuming and that's why we don't see it happening from say American and European brands in, in certain ways. But the Chinese have shown a real willingness to jump into that. And I mean it started off with the likes of GWM and MG and Cherry and that sort of thing but now we've got Xpeng, we've got Leap Motor, we've got, I think we have about 10 new brands that have started here, Chinese brands in the last 12 months and we're probably looking at another 10 coming in the next 18 months. So it's huge. Yeah, yeah. GAC. I mean it's a big one. They've just recently confirmed as well.
- [07:51]
A
So they've got right.
- [07:52]
B
Several brands. But yeah. Sorry, you were saying?
- [07:55]
A
So I was Only going to say that. I mean just anecdotally and I believe nothing to do with me or my influence on my Australian family. My sister in law and niece. My sister in law has a byd Atto 3 my niece has a byd dolphin and they just, they what is interesting and I think this is something I think you and I can discuss, but the psychology of that is that they caught their just cars, they got a new car. Yeah. It wasn't any big deal. They both live in Brisbane, so they both live in an urban area. They can. No one can't. My niece can't charge her car at her apartment.
- [08:29]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [08:30]
A
But my, my sister in law can charge hers at her house. But they cope and they just go, they're like not interested to talk about it. They're both very arty.
- [08:38]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [08:38]
A
So when I go there and I get all, oh, oh, you've got an electric car. Yeah, shut up, whatever. Look at my new painting.
- [08:45]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it is interesting that, that whole mindset of. I mean we're sort of steeped in the car industry here, so we're acutely aware of where they're from, where they're built. But I think you hit a good, you hit the nail on the head. I think the vast majority of new car buyers in probably a lot of countries, but Australia for sure. I think country of origin is probably known by enthusiasts but not by the masses. It's like, oh, okay, here's an affordable vehicle. I've heard the brand name before, but I'll go into the dealership, see what it's all about, have a drive.
- [09:25]
A
Wow.
- [09:26]
B
It's pretty good quality. It's got loads of tech. It's. Yeah. And another thing that, you know, these Challenger brands are coming out with is very, very potent warranties as well. So there's peace of mind there. But, but yeah, I think, I think you touched on an interesting point there where I don't think a lot of people are too concerned about country of origin anymore. Yeah, yeah, we used to.
- [09:50]
A
I think that's probably, I think that might be a bigger thing here. There's certainly. I get a lot of pushback going. Oh, oh, you support the CCP and you're a communist and you, you know, and all that stuff. And I don't want them spying on me. And I go, did you write that on a phone?
- [10:05]
B
Well, that's it. I mean that's the dichotomy. It's like, yeah, you know. Yes, you might have a Chinese car that may or may not record what you're doing or where you're going, but if you've got Facebook or Instagram, you've already signed the terms and conditions.
- [10:21]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [10:24]
B
There's already a digital footprint of what you're doing when you're going.
- [10:26]
A
It's.
- [10:27]
B
Yeah, it's, it is a bit of an issue in Australia as well. We certainly see some comments that are not going to be around the bush. They can be quite, quite racist and.
- [10:40]
A
Yes.
- [10:41]
B
And that is starting to settle down a bit and not be as much as of an issue. It's nice to see that there's not just inflammatory comments left, right and center.
- [10:51]
A
No. And actually, interestingly, I mean you may experience this too. One of the things that we've really noticed and increases of American people in America watching our episodes about say a new Chinese car going, why can't we have those 100%?
- [11:04]
B
Yeah, it's spot on.
- [11:06]
A
I mean that's more common, I think.
- [11:07]
B
Yeah, yeah it is.
- [11:08]
A
But I mean is. No, you go, I was going to say.
- [11:11]
B
Yeah, we, we noticed that too. And on quite a few of our YouTube videos they're like, oh, this would be really interesting in Australia especially models like the, the BYD Shark 6, the ute, the pickup truck. Yeah, this is, this is a huge, huge seller in Australia. It is massive.
- [11:29]
A
Right.
- [11:30]
B
It's their top seller.
- [11:31]
A
And that's, that's a plug in hybrid.
- [11:33]
B
Yes.
- [11:33]
A
It's not a full, it's got a fairly chunky battery.
- [11:36]
B
Yeah, yeah. From memory I think it's about a 30 kilowatt hour. And right out with our testing we, we, we've got an 80km, maybe a little bit more 90km out of it.
- [11:47]
A
Right.
- [11:47]
B
But that sort of, you know, it sort of works like a range extender as well. It can use the, the petrol motor but it's, it's using those electric motors most of the time.
- [11:58]
A
Right.
- [11:59]
B
I've completely gotten off topic here. I can't remember what we say. No, that's good.
- [12:04]
A
But I mean, well actually, I mean, I suppose the thing that I've noticed here, very, very. It's a thing we've really registered. We've just had a, a big live event here last weekend which had on one day the biggest audience we've ever had. So there's a lot of talk in some parts of the press where the, there's no interest in electric cars. People are getting rid of them, they hate them. That's what, that'll be the headline. Then you go, well there's quite a few of them queuing up to get in this morning.
- [12:29]
B
Don't forget that they explode as well.
- [12:32]
A
They always explode. Yeah, constantly. I mean we had about 800 electric cars on display and about 799 of them burst into flames during the day. Just happens, you get used to it.
- [12:42]
B
Yeah.
- [12:44]
A
So ridiculous. But I have noticed a really marked shift say in the last five or six years of people, you know, more and more people. This is, and this is not through my professional. It was like my neighbors, my family, my extended family here, people I know here, they've gone. I think we're gonna, our next car will be electric or we've just got an electrical complete shift in mindset about it. But I don't know whether that same is happening in Australia. There's still resistance but it feels like it's diminishing. Yeah, no, is that the same there?
- [13:15]
B
I would agree, yeah, yeah. I mean I think at the moment we're about 8% of the market is right is EV. If you move to hybrid it's a fair bit higher but. Yeah, but yeah, there is definitely a bit of a change of, of viewpoints and of people's mentality towards it. I think one of the biggest issues for a lot of people and again I'm like you, I'm talking anecdotally here, although actually I can talk to some stats that car sales has got after about 3,000 people survey. We'll chat about that later. But anecdotally it's, it's because it's, it's. They're landing on people's radar, they're cross shopping, they're going, oh, I'm looking at, you know, whatever a RAV4 from Toyota but also maybe an MG4 as well or something.
- [14:05]
A
Right? Yeah, that's, yeah, it is interesting, isn't it? And that, I mean is there because it. Are we seeing. Because I think we are here. But are you seeing a gentleman diminishing of cost, a lowering of cost of a new electric car and particularly a narrowing of the, of the gap between a new petrol or a new diesel car and a new electric car. It does feel, it feels like that here. It's hard to tell.
- [14:32]
B
Yeah, definitely, definitely. We're seeing, we're seeing some sub $30,000 EVs from the likes of GWM, BYD and who's the other one? There's another one in there but BYD is going to bring the atto one here which apparently is going to go, you know, another 30% below that. So we're going to See proper entry level cars for, you know, that are relatively affordable and that's going to be really interesting to see how people respond, how buyers respond in the market to these sort of, these vehicles. Because BYD has a very, a very positive brand awareness. People know of byd.
- [15:21]
A
Yeah.
- [15:22]
B
More so than some of the other challenger brands.
- [15:25]
A
Yeah. But I can. Yeah. Because I'm always surprised when I'm like driving in downtown Brisbane or Sydney or Melbourne.
- [15:33]
B
Yeah.
- [15:33]
A
And I'm behind what, what to my eyes is just the most enormous pickup truck I've ever seen. Oh my God, look at the size of that thing. You a big ute. But then I go, oh, it's gwm, it's Chinese made.
- [15:44]
B
Yeah.
- [15:44]
A
It's not, I'm assuming it's a Ford or you know, big American brand. It looks like that. I mean it's a big chunky ute, you know, and it's actually a Chinese one. I go. And it's got a petrol. It's not, it's not an electric car. But that thing sort of, you know, the amount of Chinese cars I see on the road, just regardless of drivetrain, is, is extraordinary. I mean it really.
- [16:07]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [16:08]
A
Change.
- [16:09]
B
Another boring, useless stat for you. I think is kind of interesting to me. It's. The Chinese built cars have now moved into third spot. So that's the third most imported car into Australia. So it goes Japanese and then Thai and then Chinese. It used to be Korean. So they've overtaken the Hyundai and the K who have a big.
- [16:32]
A
Wow.
- [16:33]
B
Big footprint here. So yeah, it's a, it's a significant, significant change. I think that happened earlier in the year. So, so yeah, there's, there's, there's a lot of movement and I think, yeah, I think Australia is seen like almost like a bit of a test market because it's a mature. I was gonna say, yeah, it's a mature market. But look, we have something like 65 brands here. Like, it's phenomenal for what is a relatively small market. About a million cars a year, give or take. Yeah. So yeah, it is, it is interesting to see and for whatever reason, I think it's viewed, yeah, it's a bit of a test bed, but it's also viewed a little bit like a badge of honor. If you can make it in Australia, then, you know, perhaps it goes on from there. But I think as you were saying before, like the tariffs, I'm not sure. Is there still tariffs on Chinese EVs in Europe to protect the local manufacturing market?
- [17:32]
A
I think There are. Yes, there is a bit. I mean not here, very, very little here, but in the, in the eu there are some, but they're nothing like the American ones.
- [17:40]
B
I mean it's 100 or something. In the US it's.
- [17:42]
A
Yeah, yeah. No one's going to bother, are they? You're not, not going to try? Yeah, yeah. This, because there's been a big, I mean it's a, it's a big challenge really for Germany and France, I guess, because when they've both got a big manufacturing base of, you know, a large car industry which we no longer have in this country. So we have, we, we can make luxury cars really. Well, we can make really, really expensive cars. Rolls Royces, Bentleys, Aston Martins. Those are Range Rovers, you know. Yes, they're all flying along. But. Yeah, no, but I think in, particularly in Germany, I think they're kind of quite threatened by it. And I mean we. Anecdotally again. But it was. I went to the Shanghai Motor show this year which was mind boggling.
- [18:26]
B
Yes, I was there as well.
- [18:28]
A
It was. Yeah. It's just so overwhelming.
- [18:30]
B
I think I looked at two holes and there was six. Yes. And I was there for two days. It was.
- [18:35]
A
I said to Elliot who was showing me around, I said, I really need to sit down. He said, you've only done two halls, there's 14 more.
- [18:43]
B
It was, it was phenomenal. And yeah, yeah, sorry you were saying.
- [18:47]
A
But I was only saying that whenever it was. So there was a year after lockdown and after Covid, when he was at what I think it was Beijing, he was at the Beijing Auto show and he just followed this large group of European businessmen who he finally worked out were from BMW, vw, Audi, you know, Daimler, say all those. And they were looking around. He just said, they didn't even talk. They just looked at a car stand and five different brands with their mouths open just going, what has happened? How did this happen so quickly? And then particularly if you're there, you're in the business like that and you look at a car, you can tell, you know, even now I've got a bit, a bit of a better eye for it. You can tell that's not a rubbish car, that's really well made.
- [19:29]
B
No, agreed. And an interesting, an interesting trend I think we're going to see moving forward is we got to have a sneak peek at what is a. I think It's a Deepal L07. Yeah. So this is, this is a sedan and it's been basically re. Skinned by A very, I think I'm under embargo, so. Oh, actually no, this is coming out later, isn't it? I can talk about it.
- [19:58]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [19:59]
B
The Mazda 6E. Okay, so this is. Right, this is kind of like the Mazda 6 spiritual successor, but it's basically a re, skinned Deepal Chang', An, I think is the brand. And yes, so it looks like a Mazda looks fantastic. The interior, they've redone that as well. But the whole, the platform, all the tech, the, the electric motors, everything is from, it's, you know, it's alliance partner Chang' an and I think we're going to see more of this going forward. I think we're going to see. Right, because China does the best EVs, you know.
- [20:34]
A
Yeah.
- [20:34]
B
Simply put.
- [20:35]
A
And the best batteries from, from what.
- [20:37]
B
I've experienced so far, they are well ahead of the Europeans and the, the Japanese, the Americans. I think maybe the Koreans might catch up. They're pretty savvy crew.
- [20:49]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:50]
B
But I think that's what we're going to see. I think we're going to see the Toyotas. We're already seeing it with Mazda and a few other really big mainstream Japanese brands are going to go, you know what, this is too hard for us. We're just going to, we're going to take that and restyle it and sell it in our dealership that everybody knows and loves and put our badges on it. And I reckon that might, that might really kick on. It'll be interesting to see how this particular Mazda goes because it's, I think it's just been launched in some European markets and yeah, I think we'll be getting it mid, mid 26. So that's going to be one to watch.
- [21:28]
A
Yeah. Because I mean certainly that is, I, I, I believe that's what Toyota are doing. They're sort of testing that out in China because I kept seeing Toyota cars I'd not seen in Europe. Yeah, I was in China and I asked Elliot, I go, what's that? He said, well, there's actually a depal underneath that or whatever it was. They've just bought the running gear because I mean the other thing we saw, which I thought was really fascinating was at Catl's R and D department. They, they showed us around that, which was incredible. But they are manufacturing the, the skateboard chassis, the drivetrain, the suspension, the wheels, and you just build your car on top of it. So they're supplying a complete finished, you know, I mean Catl, biggest battery makers in the world. They kind of know Their batteries. They know how to package them. You know, we. We drove. We had a drive of the. The skateboard, but literally just with a steering wheel and a seat on it, like driving a quite large and extraordinarily powerful go kart. That sounds cool.
- [22:25]
B
I like the sound.
- [22:26]
A
That was. It was great fun. But that. And I think you're right. I think that's a thing. Will you. You might even see something that looks like, you know, a Prius on the outside, a new Prius, and you go, oh, my God, it's fully elect. Oh, it's. Oh, it's the electric. But I think because Toyota have got such a weird relationship with electric cars, such a. And they had that incredible advantage with the Prius when that, you know, that. When that finally caught on and became a popular car and they just. It is an odd thing. I mean, it's their management. I think they are sort of opposed to. It's. I mean, it's got to be something to do with Japan and their power system. I don't. Who knows? I do not know quite why.
- [23:06]
B
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's, It's. It is interesting that they sort of pioneered that hole with the Prius. I think that came out in the 90s. And. Yeah, the fundamental layout and engineering of that hybrid system hasn't really changed.
- [23:22]
A
No, a great deal. It was genius when it came.
- [23:24]
B
Oh, yeah.
- [23:24]
A
I was blown away by it. Absolutely amazing.
- [23:26]
B
Yeah, yeah, it really was. But, yeah, they kind of. You feel like that that's an opportunity to miss for them, perhaps by. By saying, oh, we're not gonna. We're not gonna jump into. Into EV straight away or, I mean, even, you know, what have they got the BZ4X, which is.
- [23:43]
A
Yeah.
- [23:43]
B
Certainly not a class leading EV.
- [23:46]
A
No, no.
- [23:47]
B
And see, you do.
- [23:48]
A
I mean, we're seeing them here. There. I'm beginning to see a few more in the uk.
- [23:52]
B
Yeah.
- [23:52]
A
But I think similarly, and it's not quite. I don't want to draw too many comparisons, but just from my experience of being in Australia. So it would have been. I was there in 20, early 2019, visiting family and all that, and we hired a Tesla, I think then, I can't even quite remember. And there, you know, there was a Tesla supercharger network in Australia that was. You meant you could drive essentially from Brisbane to Adelaide without thinking about it. Yeah, yeah. You know, I know the rest of the country wasn't covered, but. But it felt like that was the. If there was an electric car in Australia, it was that one. Well, then we didn't come for three years, which, because my wife's Australian, she normally comes to visit her mum, goes to visit her mom. And because we weren't there for three years, when we got back, the first time we got back, I went, oh, hang on, something's changed. So there still were lots of Teslas, but my God, there were a lot of other electric cars straight away. And also the routes that we knew well, where we'd driven a Tesla in the past, we. There were other charges that had appeared. So I was just going to mention that. I mean, I, I think the charging infrastructure in Australia is more challenging maybe than in Europe, but it's, but it's, it's. There's so much more than there was in 2019.
- [25:05]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's definitely pushing ahead that there's quite a bit of government input as well. You know, they're throwing some capital at it. But yeah, I mean, you've got the Tesla supercharging network. There's another one called ev, which is quite big. Evie. And then there's Charge Fox and there's a few others that are coming in as well. Weirdly, though, I'm not sure what the regulations are like in the uk, but I did a little video on what you can do with charging, where you can charge, and digging into the rules in where I live in the state of Victoria, you. You cannot, you cannot charge your vehicle on the street by running a, A cable.
- [25:49]
A
Okay, right.
- [25:50]
B
So I don't. Is that the same as in the uk Because I can't charge my. I can't charge cars at my house because I don't have off street parking. I just, you know, park on the street. So apparently it's a tripping hazard, but. There you go.
- [26:03]
A
Yeah, I think it is a tripping hazard, but for some reason it is permissible in the, in the uk. It's, it's very specifically in. I mean, it's most common in London. It's really, really common in London. So it's a lamp, A lamp post that's on the. The road side of a, Of a sidewalk, of a pavement.
- [26:22]
B
Yeah.
- [26:22]
A
So if it's like, if the lamppost is situated next to a house or next to a garden fence, you're not allowed to. You're not allowed to run a cable over the. The pavement.
- [26:33]
B
Interesting.
- [26:34]
A
But you. But if it's on the roadside, which most of them are, then it's allowed. And what it is, it's because they change the bulbs in the lights. They replaced the light fitting at the top of a lamppost. They now use LED lamps. They use fraction of the electricity that the old ones did. So there was this quite obvious excess amount of electricity available in the existing wiring. So nothing else had to be changed. And they just replaced the inspection door at the bottom of the lamp.
- [27:03]
B
Oh, so that's an outlet you can plug into that.
- [27:05]
A
So that's now an out. So you plug into a lamp.
- [27:07]
B
Yes, yes, yes. These are starting to appear in Sydney. I believe there's a couple of Sydney councils that have taken this initiative and I think that's a fantastic idea. I think in built up areas that would be a real godsend.
- [27:23]
A
Yeah, it does work. I mean, I've parked a car next to one, you know where there was because it's very, from my experience in London, it's very rare that there's a space anywhere and it's even more rare that there's a space by one of the lampposts. But on two occasions I've gone, oh my God, there's a lamppost down this way. But then you, you sort of forget about it. You plug it in, you have to. It's very, thankfully really easy to use. You don't need an app, you, you just use their QR code and it just, you know, it doesn't matter, it, it works easily. And I'm really, I get really annoyed with apps and, and those systems because I'm old. That one just went, it just went, it just worked. And very simple to use. But then I'd forgotten then in the morning I got up and go, oh yeah, I've got to get to, I've got a long drive. Oh, car's full. You know, I just left it. And that is what you want with electric cars. You want to not think about it and then you get in it and it's full and you drive somewhere. Yeah, but no, I'm going to try and go back to my original point because I'm intrigued to get your opinion on this. So Tesla, miles ahead of everyone else in, let's say just in Australia, I mean there was no, there was no competition, there was no, you know, that was it. If you wanted an electric car in 2019 and you could afford one, you'd get a Tesla because that's.
- [28:34]
B
Yeah, that's it. That was the class leading product at the time as well.
- [28:38]
A
Yeah. But I mean, I feel that they haven't really innovated in the way that, for instance, like BYD or Shanghai or all the xpeng, all those Chinese brands are bringing out new products. With longer range that are cheaper, blah, blah, blah, you know, different designs and it's sort of like, oh, you can still get a Tesla Model Y. Yeah, yeah.
- [28:59]
B
I mean, they.
- [29:00]
A
Which is brilliant car. They are brilliant car. They are good products.
- [29:02]
B
They are very good products. And there has been a cup or there has been facelifts for the 3 and the Y that add a couple new features. But yeah, fundamentally same car. Yeah, they're, they're, yeah, that. I, I'd have to check the stats, but I'm pretty sure they still.
- [29:22]
A
Lead.
- [29:23]
B
The market in Australia in terms of vehicles. But we are seeing BYD catch up there. Yeah, they're pushing in there. And there's another brand that's been doing quite well. I think Geely has been selling quite a few of these little EX5 SUV's that have been very popular. But yeah, the next, the next five years is going to be fascinating because.
- [29:46]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:47]
B
I think even if some of these Chinese brands actually don't make profit in Australia, they're still going to push, they're still going to sink cash into it because I think there's, there's, it's almost like they want that prestige or they want that, you know, they want to be there, they want to be successful. But at the same token, I think we're also going to see attrition as well. We're going to see not all of them will survive. So. Yeah, but it is, it is interesting seeing Tesla is still plotting along. But you're right, I mean, I expected to see a Model 2 or a Model Q or whatever it's going to be called that would be smaller and more affordable to take on some of these Chinese challenges. But it's.
- [30:36]
A
Yeah, we don't, we don't need to go there.
- [30:39]
B
Well, yeah, we don't need to discuss the politics of that, but. Yeah, but yeah, one thing I did want to discuss with you is I believe you and the team might be coming to Australia.
- [30:54]
A
We are, yes, very soon.
- [30:56]
B
Yes, very soon.
- [30:57]
A
Yeah. Yes is alarmingly soon seeing as we've only just done a show here. Everyone's slightly exhausted. No, but I'm really looking forward to it. So it's a, a brave jump to see if we, you know, because it'd be the first one we've done in Melbourne. So we're quite. Well, we've sort of got quite a well established name in Sydney, but, but we haven't done one in Melbourne and my wife is thrilled because all our mates are in Melbourne. That's fantastic.
- [31:22]
B
Nice, Nice.
- [31:23]
A
And Y know, because she lived in Melbourne for many years before I met her. And so that's, you know, I think even though she's Brisbane born and bred, I think she considers Melbourne a second home. Yeah, but, yeah, no, it's going to be really interesting because I think in a sense I. And this is from your. Please correct me on this, but I've got the feeling that New South Wales and actually even Queensland sort of politically adopted electric cars or allowed them. And whereas Victoria, it feels like there's been a slightly. It's been a slight amount of friction between the Australian, the Victorian government and electric vehicles. I mean, there was the sort of road charge.
- [32:01]
B
Yes, there was.
- [32:02]
A
Thing. And yeah, you know, that was.
- [32:04]
B
That was fascinating. That was. You had to pay a tax per km driven because the idea was, well, you're not paying the tax on petrol and yeah, we need to, you know, the government needs to pay for roads and infrastructure and what have you. That got taken to court and the government lost and that.
- [32:26]
A
Right.
- [32:26]
B
That tax is no longer in place. So, yeah, there were a few other. I think there was a couple of other states that were looking at bringing that in and after the court case.
- [32:38]
A
I mean, I think in the long term. So let's jump forward 50 years and say 90% of cars on the road are electric.
- [32:45]
B
Yeah.
- [32:45]
A
I think you're going to be paying a. You know, you'll be paying a form of tax. They should be. It's absolutely right. It should be. I mean, it might have been a bit early in Victoria when there was only 300 electric cars.
- [32:57]
B
Yeah, yeah, exactly. But so the Everything Electric show. I went to my first one in Sydney last year. Was it November last year?
- [33:10]
A
No, no, it would have been early March this year.
- [33:13]
B
Sorry, March. Yes, yes. And I met some of the team, Elliot and Engine, and that was fantastic. And. But what really stood out to me was the, the test drives, the fact that people come in, there was so many cars.
- [33:27]
A
Like I walked around going, I've driven.
- [33:29]
B
Some of these, you know, we drive a few cars here. And the fact that, yeah, you're not. You're not in a dealership. There's no pressure. It's just going. Drive three, four, five different brands right there. Yeah, I think that's. That's a huge, A huge bonus and a good benefit of a show like this. So. Yeah, so, yeah, I'm looking forward to. To seeing that again and how it goes in Melbourne.
- [33:54]
A
I mean, I think we've just passed. I'm not. I can't confirm this number but it's very near it. We've, we've done over130,000 test drives. Wow. Around the world. Which is bonkers, isn't it? It's crazy. I mean that's why. Because often at those events I don't see any of that. That's at the other end of the hall or whatever.
- [34:12]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [34:12]
A
So I'm not actually aware of that going on. So that was, you know, when I heard that figure I went, that is crazy. I had no idea because it's just. But yeah, it's a big, it's a big part of the show.
- [34:23]
B
Yeah.
- [34:23]
A
I think the other thing we always try and do is get other stuff that isn't cars, particularly in Australia. I mean the adoption of rooftop solar of battery. I mean the recent news about the batteries. Over 90,000 new batteries have been installed which is the kind of capacity of a mid sized nuclear power plant for a couple of hours if you want, if you need it. You know, if they're all connected to the grid. I mean it is a remarkable step change. That stuff is fascinating.
- [34:51]
B
It is. And there's. Yeah, there's some, there's some reasonable rebates and incentives too in certain states in Australia. So yeah, it's good to see some of this stuff. And yeah, getting back to the, the, the non cast stuff that you have at the show, I was, I was flabbergasted in Sydney seeing there was a candela boat there and apparently they sold a couple of these. And these things are full carbon fiber. They're like hundred. I think they're half a million bucks or something. Like not cheap.
- [35:21]
A
No, no.
- [35:22]
B
But there was also like there was a submarine. There was, there was power tools. There was.
- [35:27]
A
And like the, the loads of mobility. Loads of.
- [35:30]
B
Yeah, yeah. The last mile stuff. I love that stuff. Yep. Scooters and I think they even had go karts and stuff. Like it was, it was pretty cool. Yeah.
- [35:38]
A
So definitely a. I think we can confidently say it's a good family day out because we had a real surprising amount of families at the most recent show in the uk. I was amazed at how many, you know, loads of kids there and we do put on a lot of that. I mean that was the frustration for me. I had to go and do. I was walking through the venue, I had to go and present a talk and there was a big table full of Lego like different colored bricks. There was a box full of yellow bricks, a box full of red. The box. Oh and like really tons of bricks. Like you when you were a kid, you only had a little pile and this was like a monster box.
- [36:14]
B
Nice.
- [36:15]
A
And that was surreal. Typically loads of kids doing stuff and quite a few dads.
- [36:20]
B
Nice. I love that. Yeah.
- [36:23]
A
Weird spaceships and things. Yeah.
- [36:25]
B
I've just gotten into Lego with my four and six year old sons, so. Yeah, it's definitely, it's definitely a good thing. Now earlier I mentioned about this car sales did a survey recently. We had about 3,000 respondents. So you were talking about, you know, that shift in perhaps in a broader acceptance of EVs in Australia. So as well as generally speaking, consumer confidence being up, EV prices are dropping and we've seen a lot of Chinese brands as well. When you go and you buy your car, they'll often throw in like a wall box or a year's free charging, things like that. And I think those have helped seen EV consideration rise among the people we interview for the first time in three years. So that's a really, a really positive shift there. So it was something like 30% in November 24th. And we conduct these EV surveys two or three times a year and it's now 37% in the last one, which was mid this year. So that's gone up quite a lot from a third to, you know, a lot more than a third.
- [37:34]
A
Yes.
- [37:35]
B
My math sucks.
- [37:36]
A
No, no, me too. That's very dangerous. Whenever I mention figures, there will always be a comment. I don't think you meant 50. I think you meant 50.
- [37:46]
B
Look, I gotta put a. But then I'm gonna put a disclaimer. All my comments on percentages and numbers may or may not be completely accurate.
- [37:54]
A
But then do you, do you also do second hand sales through the company? Is that, is that something you do? So right.
- [38:02]
B
Car sales is, is first and foremost. It's like I'm not sure what would be in the uk. Is it, is it trader? Is there a.
- [38:10]
A
Yes, there are, there are companies. I'm trying to think now. Like I've seen the big, there's like big warehouse things that got.
- [38:18]
B
So this is.
- [38:18]
A
Yes, I can't remember.
- [38:19]
B
Car sales is basically, there's a huge amount of new cars for sale.
- [38:25]
A
So a lot of, a lot of.
- [38:26]
B
Dealers will put their cars on there. And there's obviously a lot of secondhand cars as well. And then, so that's the majority of the company. And then we've got our little editorial team which is about 10 or 12 of us and we do, you know, all the usual stuff. We do the YouTube and we do written and we do Instagram. We even got a bit of tick tock now. So I've had a go at that.
- [38:51]
A
Well done.
- [38:52]
B
Made a fool of myself there. That was awesome. But, but yeah, car sales has a, it's a very large, you know, it's basically number one in the space. And in terms of second hand evs, I think it's pretty similar to the rest of the world where you are seeing some pretty steep depreciation, which is great for secondhand buyers, not so good for the sellers. I think part of this is because you see a lot of discounting as well. You know, like Elon Musk will come out and go, we've slashed $10,000 off the price of a Model Y. And it's like, oh, it doesn't really help the dudes that just bought it.
- [39:37]
A
Just bought one the week before.
- [39:38]
B
Yeah. Yes. So. And yeah, a lot of the, a lot of the Chinese brands coming in will, will launch something and then maybe realize they need to add incentives or cut the price. So yeah, look, I think that those secondhand prices probably over time might bounce back. But at the moment, yeah, and maybe.
- [40:05]
A
Certainly that's the really big shift we've seen this year and the big change is the growth of the second hand market because I mean there was always a second hand market, but it was tiny.
- [40:15]
B
Yeah.
- [40:15]
A
Because there weren't that many cars. You know, back in 2012 you might be able to get a secondhand Zoe. Yeah, back in 2015 you might be able to get the second hand Renault Zoe. And that was about. Or a Nissan Leaf.
- [40:25]
B
Yes.
- [40:25]
A
There just weren't any. Whereas this year, I think what the peculiarity of this year, why it's gone up so much is there was a really large number of business companies that had a big leased fleet that came to the end of the lease. So they then went on to the market. So there was this sudden explosion of secondhand car sales that we hadn't really witnessed before. And then that really shows on the roads. So you were seeing a lot more people with. Well, just the other day there was a woman who was at my local supermarket where there is a charger and she'd never, she'd never used it before and she was on the phone to her husband who was obviously quite irate. And I mean, I know this. Oh no, I could hear him. I was standing. So I, I said, I don't want to get involved. But you know, I, I have done this before, I can show you how to do it. And I plugged the car in for. And it Was. And it went beep. And it started charging. But that. That was a good sign that there's people who've never, you know, she. That was the first time she'd ever driven it.
- [41:23]
B
Yeah.
- [41:24]
A
And. And she needed to charge it at the supermarket, or. I think he told her, it's really easy, just plug it in. But she was like looking at the two ends of the cable because it. If you've never done it before, I mean.
- [41:33]
B
Oh, it's confronting. It's not.
- [41:35]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [41:36]
B
It's. It's certainly not the easiest thing to do. And, you know, there's different. There's different plugs and there's. There's different types of charges. One thing I've noticed going to public, fast chargers, DC charges, is the. There's a weird sort of camaraderie. You rock up.
- [41:56]
A
Yes.
- [41:56]
B
There's. They're all full, but you go, oh, you know, how long are you gonna be, man? I don't like what you got there. I got this thing and. Oh, I'm a journalist. It's not mine, but. Oh, I can have a look.
- [42:04]
A
Yeah. Ye. Yes.
- [42:05]
B
Have a sticky beak. And. And. Yeah, it's. It's. I. I don't think I've had that too many times at the petrol station when I'm filling up with.
- [42:13]
A
No, no, actually, that was a. It was a few years ago. We drove a. We were. Tesla gave us a Model X in Sydney that they wanted delivering to Brisbane. That was a chore, having to drive that amazing luxury car.
- [42:27]
B
Yeah.
- [42:27]
A
Anyway. But there was a. You know, it's a. I think a thing that I've experienced in other countries, but it can be particularly acute in Australia because it's a long way. I was desperate for the gents. I was desperate. Comfort break. Yes, it's politely called. And we drove into the Macadamia Nut Castle.
- [42:47]
B
Oh, I know that. That place is cool.
- [42:50]
A
It's got superchargers.
- [42:52]
B
They've got superchargers there. Oh, my God. Yeah, there you go.
- [42:55]
A
Yeah, they've got six or eight superchargers. So we drive in. In a Model X, when it was. It was the first one or first or second one in Australia.
- [43:01]
B
That's in the middle of nowhere as well. That is like.
- [43:04]
A
It's in the middle of nowhere. And it was quite busy. It was probably school holidays or whatever. And we reversed in and then I was just so desperate and I jumped out the car and I said to Judy, can you plug it in? And then she opened the back door to get a Bag or whatever. And of course everyone then just went, oh my God, look at those doors. And they, both the doors went. And I'm standing there with my legs crossed going, there's people going, what is it? I've never seen.
- [43:30]
B
And you kind of, you kind of want to be polite and tell them about it.
- [43:33]
A
You don't want to be rude. But yeah, yeah, that's the curse. So yeah, experience, that was an extreme example of that. But that, yeah, yeah, but then I don't. I mean, yes, I wonder how. I'm fascinated by that sort of the initial depreciation and it is that thing I think with it is the battery fear. Is that, I mean, I'm sure you've experienced this. Or if I buy a secondhand. I've had so many people say that I'd love to buy a secondhand electric car but I'd have to immediately buy a new battery.
- [44:05]
B
Yeah.
- [44:05]
A
Because it will be more than three years old and you have to buy a new one. I go, how did that piece of information just become common parlance? I mean it's. Yeah, yes.
- [44:14]
B
I mean the average.
- [44:15]
A
And that was. Sorry, you finished only very briefly. One of the things that Catl showed us was what they call the 90 year battery. Oh wow. So it has enough, it has enough charge cycles effectively to last 90 years before it has a noticeable drop in capacity. Well that's ridiculous.
- [44:34]
B
That is.
- [44:35]
A
And he, and the guy, he's very funny, he said, yeah, in future you won't worry about buying a new battery for your car, you'll be worrying about buying a new car for your battery. Exactly the other way around.
- [44:45]
B
That is. That doesn't surprise me. I could, I could. No, I could believe that. And yeah, I mean the average battery warranty for an EV in Australia, even for a phev, I think is about eight years. And some of them do. And I mean I was looking at, before pre covered, I was looking at a second hand Nissan Leaf, you know, just for a family runabout because they were really cheap and they were still doing about. I mean the range had obviously dropped. You do lose. And that, that is, think about it though, that's earlier tech. That's like 10, 15 years ago. But you know, they were still getting 100ks or something to it. And then.
- [45:26]
A
Yeah.
- [45:26]
B
And then for whatever, whatever reason Covid comes along and used car prices went through the roof. So even crappy little Nissan Leafs almost doubled in price, you know.
- [45:38]
A
Wow.
- [45:39]
B
And so yeah, so that was unfortunately off the menu. But yeah, but yeah, yeah, that idea that you, you have to replace the battery. I mean batteries are often repurposed, you know, especially.
- [45:56]
A
Yes. You don't throw them away, whatever happens.
- [45:58]
B
No, there's. They're still going to work. I mean there'll be, there'll be. I'm sure there'll be cases where yes. The battery packs it in and has a catastrophe, not a catastrophic failure. That would be, that would be the.
- [46:11]
A
Drops in battery fire.
- [46:13]
B
Yeah, but.
- [46:14]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [46:15]
B
Ceases to work.
- [46:16]
A
A failure gonna happen. It's like you can get a brand new Mercedes and the engine blows up. You know, it's not like, you know, things go wrong with complicated technologies.
- [46:25]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [46:26]
A
But because that was interesting. I've just driven the new relief. The, the.
- [46:32]
B
Oh yes.
- [46:34]
A
Gen 3 leaf.
- [46:35]
B
What's the word?
- [46:35]
A
And it. Is that the weird thing because my. I have still have the 2011 built in Japan. Very first generation Nissan Leaf which we still have.
- [46:44]
B
Why.
- [46:45]
A
And that. And the, the range on that was a realistic 65 miles. You wouldn't worry about it at all. Up to 65 miles. Over 65 miles. You're really anxious particularly back then when there was no chargers anywhere. But the new one, I think they claim 385 miles. So I don't know what so. And I, I don't think you have.
- [47:05]
B
600 case that'd be.
- [47:07]
A
Yes, nearly 600k and then. But realistically, 3, 350 realistic, you know, with that in the rain, with a hill, with wind, you know, with weather lights, you would easily. Yes, exactly, exactly. It was extraordinary change. And it's also the battery's heated and cooled. It's all the things that the original Leaf didn't have. That technology's moved on.
- [47:29]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [47:30]
A
Really nice car. I was really impressed with it. I was, I was anxious that I wouldn't like it but because of, because of the kind of connection with what the Leaf represented. Yeah, but I think they've made a real jump. I mean I don't know whether. I'm not sure when, when or if it's going to be in Australia. I don't know if it's. Do you know if it's coming?
- [47:46]
B
Oh yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure it's coming.
- [47:48]
A
You'll be getting. I would imagine so.
- [47:49]
B
I'd have to, I'd have to double check. But I'm pretty sure they're pushing on with it. I mean it's a, it's one of the most recognizable name plates out there. Yeah, I do feel like Nissan again a little bit like Toyota probably A missed opportunity there because. Yeah, at one point in time the Leaf was the world's top selling EV partner.
- [48:09]
A
Yes.
- [48:09]
B
You know, that was. They had so much like brand equity or what have you and, and yeah, they. Yeah, that sort of. I'm not sure exactly what happened there, but I guess, I guess the competition got better. I guess it was just a case of, you know.
- [48:29]
A
Yeah, yeah. There were similar sized cars that went much further that were a few, you know, few thousand dollars cheaper. Yeah, basically.
- [48:36]
B
Yeah.
- [48:37]
A
That's when they emerge.
- [48:38]
B
Yeah.
- [48:38]
A
I mean, I think they've caught up with this Leaf. I just hope the company survives long enough to, you know, to make that work because it's, it's definitely on a par with any other particularly Chinese brands I've driven recently. It's, you know, it's good, if not in some ways better. You know that that range is really. Because it is hard to tell when you only, you know, I drove it for five hours, so you can't, you're not, you know, and I didn't recharge. But just judging on how far I drove and what was remaining in the battery, I went. That is like well over 300, 320, 330.
- [49:11]
B
Yeah. That's a real world figure. It's not that he's tested in the lab on a dyno, like, you know, all that sort of stuff.
- [49:19]
A
It's often a little bit.
- [49:23]
B
They're a little bit optimistic at times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [49:28]
A
But then. So, yeah, because that's. I think it's worth mentioning about. We'll round up in a minute. But the, the thing that I've forgotten, I actually looked it up this morning. I made a note in a diary that I keep about all the. To try and remember all the different cars and the brands and the changes because just it's such a lot. But one of the things I wrote was about. I was in Brisbane on a. Living in a house on a hill, quite a steep hill of which there's many in Brisbane. And every now. And it'd be quiet and I'd hear birds and I'd hear a cockatoo going in there and I'd hear the most deafening exhaust from either a motorbike or a. Or a low slung ute. And actually I now know, I've checked here. That would be literally illegal. You'd literally have the car impounded or the motorbike.
- [50:15]
B
Yes, yes. No, that's.
- [50:17]
A
I mean, it's so loud. I mean it really hurt. And we were in a house behind a garden and it was like. Ow. Rattling the windows, rattling the windows as it roared up the hill.
- [50:28]
B
Oh, dear.
- [50:28]
A
So that there is a big, well established, sort of really passionate petrol head, noisy big V8. I mean, that's much way more than we have in the UK or in Europe. But I mean, it's similar to America. I actually think even in America, in California, you'd still be arrested riding that motorbike that makes children deaf, forget the fumes, bleeding eardrums. It's just literally, it's like going to. Sitting in the front row, a Black Sabbath concert, you know, just.
- [50:59]
B
Yeah, yeah. I think the. The acoustic and noise regulations in Europe are getting quite. They're getting more strict, aren't they? Definitely.
- [51:08]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [51:09]
B
Because I remember there was something, I can't remember Audi RS3 or something, and it was. It was. They had to.
- [51:15]
A
Noisy.
- [51:16]
B
Yeah, they had to dial it down.
- [51:18]
A
Yeah.
- [51:19]
B
Interesting.
- [51:19]
A
I don't think. Yeah, because it was also very quickly. I mean, it's related to that, the actual tailpipe emissions. You know, I remember reading this story in many places, so I'm assuming it's. It's regularly accurate that what the two countries that had zero tailpipe emission standards were Russia and Australia. Yes, but that's changed, hasn't it? That's changed.
- [51:41]
B
It's just. Yeah, we've got this thing called nvs, which is. Yeah, but before that there was basically, we were probably a generation or two behind, you know, so if it was EU4, we were probably on EU2. You know what I mean?
- [51:54]
A
Yes.
- [51:55]
B
Like the emissions regulations were. Yeah, we're not great.
- [51:58]
A
And.
- [51:59]
B
Yeah, there's an argument to say that we'd almost become a dumping ground for dirty engines.
- [52:05]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [52:06]
B
But at the. Oh, that was what I was going to say. You mentioned V8.
- [52:11]
A
Yeah.
- [52:12]
B
GWM developing a brand new V8, which is almost unheard of when you've got all these other car brands that are dialing it back, like some of the German brands and even American brands, they're going, no, we're going to build this 4 liter twin turbo V8, but it's going to be. It's going to be super efficient because we're going to hybridize it. And I'm. I'm interested to see what. What happens, because I'm not sure it's going to be that efficient. But we'll see. We'll see.
- [52:40]
A
Yeah. But I think what that shows, though. I think it shows in a sense, the Australian market is more extreme, as in there is that definitely fascination and passion and I mean, there's a lot of V8, there's a lot of vehicles with throaty V8s in them in Australia. But the fact that electric car adoption has got the, you know, has made the impact it has now I think is really interesting. So that shows that there are, there is an alternative. It's not because you could easily do the stand up comic generalization. Everybody in Australia loves a V8, you know.
- [53:15]
B
Exactly.
- [53:16]
A
You know, you could do that. But actually they go. Actually, I don't know that they all do. Yeah, look, there's, and it's a big, you know, the jump from having a V8 ute with a really, with an exhaust pipe the size of a dustbin at the back to, to, you know, an Xpeng P7 or whatever it is. It's a big jump. That's a big change.
- [53:35]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's. Well, on that point though, I will say that, yes, the enthusiast market for high performance loud cars in Australia is, is, is very strong and it's big. I think there was something like, you know, like your BMW M cars, your, your Mercedes AMG cars, those top spec, high performance ones.
- [53:56]
A
Yeah.
- [53:57]
B
We would be in like the top three global, globally, sales wise.
- [54:02]
A
Right.
- [54:02]
B
Despite the tiny population. Because we love these performance cars.
- [54:06]
A
Yeah.
- [54:06]
B
But I think we're going to see some, and we're, we're already seeing some of that innovation in EVS, the Hyundai Ioniq 5N.
- [54:15]
A
And I don't know if you, I.
- [54:17]
B
Don'T know if you've driven this, but this thing is off the scale. Like, it is just savage. Like, I remember getting in it for the first time and it, you know, I might have put it in the hardcore mode, but it just kicked sideways.
- [54:29]
A
And it was brutal.
- [54:31]
B
It was, it was brutal and it, but made me realize, okay, the, the, the enthusiast market can still, you know, have its cake and eat it in a lot of ways because there's going to be the cars like this and I suppose to a lesser extent, like the Porsche Taycans and things like that. Yeah, there is, there are options there. I mean, yes, they're not going to make the war, you know, V8 sound, but they're gonna give you. And I, I think they'll get smarter and they'll get more engaging and yeah, I think it's going to be, I think it's gonna be exciting.
- [55:08]
A
That was like, I mean, that car, the only, the car that I've driven that it reminded me of, the 5N was a, like a Subaru rally car.
- [55:18]
B
Yes.
- [55:19]
A
It had a roll Cage and all that stuff. Yes, it made similar. The sound was similar. But the thing is the sound, I just thought it was. It just really intrigued me. Made me. I couldn't stop laughing the first time I drove it with the sound on. Yeah. Just the most. And the gears, the gear shift is just, it's so simple because you get that little jolt of changing gears. It's extraordinary of the software in that car is mind boggling. That's all done with code. It's extraordinary.
- [55:44]
B
It's all software.
- [55:46]
A
What I thought was that, you know, I'd have a go with it on a country lane around where I live. Oh my God. Then I turn it off and just drive to the shop like a normal human being in a really quiet car. Yes. Then you're going up a hill. Oh, it would sound good here. But the great thing is no one else can hear it.
- [56:07]
B
Not outside but. But I think that's, that's going to be a really, I think for the EV brands that really want to get, you know, you'll have your mainstream buyers that are just looking for like your Toyota, your white could, something goes from A to B, it's affordable, it's reliable, whatever. But then there will be that other market that, you know, if you can have that super sexy high performance EV in the front of the showroom or what have you, I think that's going to be, that's going to be really useful.
- [56:37]
A
Yeah.
- [56:37]
B
And I reckon we're going to start seeing that from some of the Chinese brands soon too. I think won't be too long.
- [56:43]
A
But also I think critically for Australia, I mean it's the same everywhere and the same here, but really importantly there you have enormous capacity to generate all the fuel for all your ground transport in Australia. Yeah. Whereas at present you are. Because I always think, oh, Australia must have oil because it's so big. But you don't really, I mean you're importing all your, all your fossil fuels.
- [57:07]
B
We have gas, we have natural gas, but then. Yeah, I think we export most of that. So.
- [57:13]
A
Yeah, you do, yeah, that's the same for us, you know, because we must drill more in the North Sea. What, so we can sell more to other countries because we don't have it, we don't benefit from it here.
- [57:21]
B
Yeah.
- [57:22]
A
We're not like Norway, which is really annoying. Yeah. But that, I mean, I don't know has that, do you? I don't hear that argument here very much. I'm always using it, I'm always using it as a reason. But is that something that ever comes up in Australia. I've got an electric car because I can charge it off my roof or I use electricity we generate here which employs people in Australia and it's not going overseas to pay for oil. I mean, I don't know. Is that a common.
- [57:47]
B
I don't think so, no. I mean like I'm only really saying anecdotally and from all the feedback we get on our various, various verticals and channels, but not to say it doesn't happen, but I. Yeah, I think maybe a little bit, but I think that there's probably the more, the more common one is very much. I've got solar, I've got an ev. I'll probably get a battery soon as well, which is often a little bit more expensive and so I can be self sufficient in a lot of ways.
- [58:17]
A
Yeah.
- [58:18]
B
So I've got solar at my house but I don't have a battery yet. Yes, there was, there was really good rebates on the solar stuff. So. So. But that is certainly something that I'd like to get next.
- [58:32]
A
Yeah.
- [58:32]
B
And.
- [58:33]
A
Well, I mean the other one which, I mean I understand you wouldn't be able to do that but in your particular circumstance. But the thing that's just bubbling up and then Nissan Leaf already completely kitted out for that is vehicle not just vehicle to house but vehicle to grid. Yeah.
- [58:47]
B
They have developed V2G.
- [58:49]
A
There's a new Nissan wall box that will come with that car that is bi directional by default. And then it's then to do with. It's all to do with legislation but they're trying that here first, which is unusual for us. We usually get stuff last but they're doing a vehicle to grid test with the new Nissan Leafs. And this is a 7 kilowatt cable. It's not.
- [59:08]
B
Oh wow.
- [59:09]
A
They have done it before but that was chadamo, which is very restricting. Enough to run your house basically not enough to run your street.
- [59:17]
B
That's impressive.
- [59:18]
A
That would make a huge difference in Australia if that was the case, that you could power your house from your car, which, you know, you can sort of now, but it's much harder.
- [59:28]
B
Well, that would. Let's, let's use my example as a case there. Let's say I get this Nissan Leaf. I can have it plugged in during the day. I don't have a battery at home so I plug it in during the day it's coming off the solar panels, charging it for free and then at night I can switch the direction and I can charge my House from, from the car and use it like a battery that I have to pay, what, $10,000 or $5,000 for. So the idea is, is really, really fascinating and I think, yeah, I think if it's made easy like that, you can go into a dealership and just. They supply for you. Because I think we're just starting to get V2G inverters or whatever they are. The, the. Yeah, the various wall boxes, they're starting to come online here. But I think they're very expensive.
- [60:13]
A
Yes, they. They have been horrifyingly expensive. Yeah. So it's got. It. It's got to be one of those technologies that becomes a little bit more normal and cheaper. And also there's got to be deals where, you know, you don't have to pay upfront for it. You know, in a sense, like the battery scheme or all the different. There's different ways of doing that. There's a lot of discussion which we don't have time to go into now, but, you know, around how, how the grid, it's not the technology and it's not the wires, it's the legislation, how the, the legal aspects of the grid, which will be different in Australia to here. But, yeah, that's what's holding things up here. It's nothing. It's nothing to do with a grid or wires or anything like. It's to do with what, what the legislation allows you to do so that.
- [60:57]
B
The hardware can handle it by.
- [60:58]
A
The hardware can do it. Yeah, yeah. Which is, you know, which is often, you know, the, the. Interestingly, the argument we've had for years, and I'm sure this applies in Australia, is, you know, people would say, oh, if we all have electric cars, we'll melt the grid. There won't be enough electricity.
- [61:13]
B
Yes. Yeah.
- [61:14]
A
Which, you know, we knew wasn't the case, but then suddenly that is the case with data farms. Yeah, that is. That is like half of Sydney on 24 hours a day all the time. It never stops.
- [61:27]
B
Yeah.
- [61:28]
A
Oh, my God. And then there is. We do have a challenge with our generating capacity, but it's nothing to do with cars.
- [61:33]
B
No, no, it is, it is fascinating. What's the. I'm intrigued.
- [61:39]
A
What's the.
- [61:40]
B
The wildest, craziest, weirdest electric vehicle you've ever have.
- [61:46]
A
You.
- [61:47]
B
Have you.
- [61:47]
A
Oh, God. I mean, the thing is, I've had the chance to drive quite a few prototypes that never made it off the, you know. You know, some. I mean, like there was a Peugeot single seater, Peugeot city car, huge sports car thing. Just wow. And I drove that round the middle of London with them following me, with cameras, everything. I mean, it was such a strange vehicle to be in. It was huge, but it only had one seat. It was like a Le Mans racer from the 1950s. It had that, but it was a one off. They. I don't quite know why they did it, got a lot of press attention at the time, but I mean, I've got to say, the Hyundai 5N just blew me away because it was. I hadn't driven it. We've got a review of it that Jack did, but I'd never driven before.
- [62:29]
B
It's phenomenal. Like, it really is. It's. It's expensive, but for the money, you kind of go, well, this, this has the performance of a, of a supercar, you know, like.
- [62:39]
A
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, which is actually not that. Because I. When I was last in Australia, I had the MG for the performance.
- [62:48]
B
Yes, yes.
- [62:50]
A
Because I drive an MG4 here all the time and it's fine and I just use it. Don't think about it. And then there I got in that one and it was. If you had it on Eco, it's exactly the same car, there's nothing different. But then you turn out to sport and it's terrifying thing.
- [63:04]
B
It's quick. Yeah, yeah, we did a comparison, I think we did that versus a Golf GTI or something. And. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it is, it is pretty, pretty interesting how it's evolving.
- [63:17]
A
Yeah, I mean, that's, I think that's the thing for me is that one, the, the, you know, I'm waiting for when we call them cars rather than electric cars. And then you. I want it to be. This is a car. Oh, over there, there's a petrol car and that one's a diesel car and that one's a hybrid car. This one's just a car.
- [63:34]
B
Right.
- [63:35]
A
I don't think I'm gonna win. It's going to take a long time. But. But I mean, there's that side of it and then it is the kind of the, the choice, you know, in the experience I've had from. This is the, the range of cars, as you were saying, the amount of cars that were on show in, in Sydney and will be and will be in Melbourne. Melbourne show is crazy.
- [63:52]
B
Yeah.
- [63:52]
A
I mean, that's, that's massive explosion of. And I think what's exciting is it's a new technology that has kind of liberated car designers, car makers. They're kind of thinking about those shapes in different ways.
- [64:05]
B
Yeah, definitely.
- [64:06]
A
You know how you can, how you can build a car. We just had a review of the Kia PV5.
- [64:12]
B
Oh, is it a delivery van?
- [64:15]
A
No, it's a, it can be a, like a, it's like a minivan. So it can be a delivery van, a mini camper or a probably a seven or eight seater little van. And really. And Jack just, he can't stop talking about it because normally he's taught, he likes to talk about performance cars like the 5N. Oh my God. It's amazing that he just went on and on the PV5. That's it. And it's anything but a performance vehicle. But it's just a different approach because the technology allows it, you know, it's it. The technology allows you to shove the wheels right into the corners and have a big open, flat space in the van, you know?
- [64:47]
B
Yeah, no, like, like we said before, the. I think the Koreans are going to give the Chinese the biggest run for their money when it comes to tech design. Everything. Value for money. So. Yeah, that'll be fascinating. I rode, I got the chance to ride an electric skateboard for the first time.
- [65:08]
A
All right.
- [65:09]
B
Recently, which was, it was cool. It was cool. And I didn't crash, so.
- [65:15]
A
Right. I'm impressed. But yeah, no, I've been, I've been told skateboards are. My son is a big skateboarder or was. He does it less now but he's like held me as I'm standing on a skateboard so he's holding me up. I still fell over, didn't move at all. It just went. It just went. I am so not the person to go.
- [65:37]
B
They're pretty diabolical. They are. They are.
- [65:39]
A
Yeah.
- [65:40]
B
That was. So I was. Last month I was in the US just on a family holiday and we did, we did RVs all around, you know, the Grand Canyon and all that sort of stuff. And we're staying in an RV park and there was a New Zealander there who was pretty keen to talk to some Aussies and he had this electric skateboard and I was like, okay, that's pretty cool. And yeah, it was, it's amazing how many electric devices there are nowadays. You know, you can get these, you know, these electric surfboards and foil boards and all sorts of, of recreational, you know.
- [66:15]
A
Yeah. I think even when it's often. Yes. The shipping stuff. So last year we, earlier this year we went to see the, the big electric ferry that's been built in Tasmania. It's actually for, to, for use in South America, but I mean we're talking a ship that is 100 electric. It's a battery electric ship, it's not a boat. Yeah. I think it can do 900, 900 cars and 2 1/2 thousand passengers. So, I mean, so big brighty.
- [66:40]
B
That's massive.
- [66:41]
A
And we saw it, we saw it being built. It's now actually having sea trials. So I'm hoping I can go and see it again. But it was, you know, when you see that scale of development and that and the people who make that ship, they've been making ships for years. Yeah. They said even three years ago it wouldn't have been economically viable. The batteries would be too expensive. But the battery costs have come down now. They actually, it's, it's on the cusp of being cheaper than fitting diesel, marine diesel engines.
- [67:07]
B
Wow. Okay.
- [67:09]
A
You know, in certain technologies, in certain areas, it's much cheaper to have a battery like earth moving equipment. Now that's becoming. If you want the cheap digger, you get the electric one.
- [67:19]
B
Yeah, okay. That is, that is interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm also fascinated by, they're not really flying cars but they're, you know, they're, they're, they're giant drones that you can drive.
- [67:32]
A
Yes.
- [67:33]
B
These, these things are going to be, they're going to be super interesting. There's, there's obviously a lot. It's a bit like you were saying about the grid. It's all about the legislation and the.
- [67:43]
A
Yes.
- [67:43]
B
The legal framework.
- [67:45]
A
I really want you to test fly in one of those first before I do.
- [67:49]
B
No, no, you go, you go, mate. I'll be right. I want to watch, I want to see double check the safety systems first.
- [67:57]
A
Yeah, I want to see a lot of other people going on first. Yeah. But I mean, I'm sure they're, I'm sure they're, they've got more safety in a way than a single engined Piper, you know, with a, I mean engines go wrong, you don't want, and you really don't want an engine going. But Those have got 10 motors or whatever. You know, it's a different beast.
- [68:13]
B
There was, there was an X ping one and it shoots out parachutes when the.
- [68:19]
A
That's right.
- [68:21]
B
Start failing. But.
- [68:23]
A
Oh God.
- [68:23]
B
But yeah, the idea is interesting.
- [68:25]
A
But yeah, yeah, we could go on for hours.
- [68:29]
B
We could, we could.
- [68:30]
A
Should we?
- [68:31]
B
Probably not.
- [68:31]
A
No, we should. No, it has been and it's been really good to talk to you. Thank you so much.
- [68:37]
B
Likewise.
- [68:38]
A
I mean, really interesting insight into the Australian market and I, you know, looking forward to being there again. And being with a load of Aussies, you know, I feel very. I feel very at home in Australia, even though I'm not the least bit Australian. But having Australian kids and Australian wife, it's sort of part of my world and it's. So. It's a real privilege to be there. And. And it's just. It's just really love, you know, I think I get an extra buzz when I'm driving along a country road outside Albury, Wodonga.
- [69:06]
B
Yeah.
- [69:06]
A
And there's a. There's a kind of road stop and there's 15 charges. There I go. Oh, my God. And a big solar farm, you know, I see that. It kind of goes. Wow, that's fantastic.
- [69:14]
B
Yeah, it does.
- [69:15]
A
It is starting to happen.
- [69:17]
B
It is definitely, definitely. It's going to be. It's going to be really interesting to see, you know, the next five, 10, 15 years. It's. Yeah, yeah.
- [69:26]
A
I think big changes. Yeah, yeah.
- [69:28]
B
Yes. Well, thank you so much for having me. Really appreciate it.
- [69:32]
A
Really hope you enjoyed that. It was great fun talking to him. Please do. Do the normal things. Have a little look at our Patreon. We'll put a Patreon link in the show notes. Have a look at. Look at our Patreon page, because that is kind of getting interesting. We're starting to do more stuff on Patreon, which we should have done years ago, and we're now beginning to, like, do little tests and try out programs on Patreon. And we're getting a little bit of an increase in. A bit of. Getting a bit of a buzz around the whole Patreon thing. It really helps us. It's what kept us going through the dark times of lockdown. We wouldn't be here without our wonderful Patreon supporters. Please do subscribe. Doesn't cost you anything. Doesn't do anything. You don't have to watch the show ever again. You can just. If you just subscribe, that helps us and it cost you nothing. Please tell your friends, and as always, if you have been. Thank you for watching.