Australia's EV BOOM: Affordable Cars, V2G & Why the UK is Jealous | Everything Electric Podcast

Summary

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Summary: Australia’s EV Boom: Affordable Cars, V2G & Why the UK is Jealous

Podcast: Everything Electric Podcast (The Fully Charged Show)
Date: November 24, 2025
Host: Robert Llewellyn
Co-host: Jack
Location: Everything Electric Melbourne event

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Episode Overview

This vibrant and freewheeling live episode, recorded at Everything Electric Melbourne, sees hosts Robert Llewellyn and Jack reflecting on Australia’s rapid EV (electric vehicle) transition, why the UK is jealous, and what’s driving such spectacular change down under. They share observations from the event, discuss affordability, charging and solar benefits, innovations like vehicle-to-grid (V2G), and field audience questions on policy, market obstacles, and the future of cleaner mobility.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Australian EV Landscape: Rapid Change, Accessibility, and Attitude

• Expansion beyond Tesla:

  • Six to seven years ago, Australia was primarily “just dripping with Teslas, the occasional Nissan Leaf,” but now “this is really starting to change” with a diversity of models and widespread adoption.
    Robert Llewellyn (02:20-03:35)

• EVs are Becoming “Just Cars”:

  • EVs are now mainstream enough that average drivers think of them simply as cars, not tech novelties—“my niece…plugs her car in and then she drives it and that’s the end of it.”
    Robert (03:35-04:18)

• Affordability & the Chinese EV Influx:

  • Australia skipped the “expensive and rubbish” phase of EVs; they’re now “super affordable” compared to the UK, aided by a flood of high-quality Chinese EV models targeting the Australian market first.
    Jack (04:19-05:20)

  “You guys get the really, really, really affordable stuff first… and then you combine that with the fact that there is this… thing called sun.”
  — Jack (05:18)

2. Solar Power, V2G, and Energy Advantages

• Solar + EV = Major Benefit:

  • Abundant rooftop solar makes running an EV “so cheap here… It’s just such an exciting thought to have your own little generator on your roof.”
    Jack (05:24-06:01)

• Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G) Potential:

  • Trials in Australia likely to outpace those in the UK due to solar resource:

    “I think you’re going to be ahead of anywhere else in the world… your [V2G] tests are going to be earlier and more effective because of the amount of solar you can generate.”
    — Robert (06:02-07:00)

• UK Jealousy:

  • A Nissan Ariya is AUD$55k in Australia vs. AUD$70k equivalent in the UK—despite being made in the UK.

    “It’s just the most ridiculous, weird thing.”
    — Robert (07:00)

• Solar Yields Comparison:

  • Australian solar blows UK out of the water:

    “There are probably people here with a sort of panel on their roof the size of one of my shoes that are harvesting more energy than you are on any given day in the Cotswolds.”
    — Jack (07:15)

  • Robert’s best UK solar day in summer: 64 kWh; worst in winter: 2.7 kWh. Australia’s yield is far steadier.

3. Experiences with Full Self Driving

• Test Drives of Tesla Full Self Driving (FSD):

  • Both Jack and Robert are impressed:

    “Terrifyingly good.” — Jack (09:33)
    “It was truly impressive… it steered round a little roundabout better than I would have done.” — Robert (08:48)

  • Awareness there are already even more advanced systems in China and the US.

4. Reflections on 15 Years of Fully Charged

• Humble Origins:
  • Robert recalls bringing his Nissan Leaf to a village fete in 2012:

    “That’s how I started out with car shows… parked next to the coconut shy.” (10:40-11:40)

  • Surprised and grateful at the success of live events.

5. Audience Q&A Highlights

a. Why is EV Uptake Still Relatively Low in Australia?

[14:35]

• Barriers:

  • Electric cars face economic and industry inertia (“potent forces”) including the oil lobby and negative press.
  • Many myths persist: fires, battery issues, range anxiety.
    “Stories in the press… hold people back.”

• Critical Mass Needed:

  • Word of mouth is crucial: once neighbors see EVs in regular use over years without problems, curiosity overcomes hesitation.

  • Charging infrastructure perception (and reality) remains a barrier, especially public and on-street charging.

    “No amount of advertising or YouTube videos... will really push those numbers. What happens is there’s a bloke over the road who’s got a Renault Zoe… and they’re still driving them four years later. That... word of mouth… is where you’re at in this country.”
    — Robert (14:56-17:43)

    “Be a good ambassador for it and bring your most cynical friend next year.”
    — Jack (18:20-19:07)

b. Which Policies Should Australia Adopt/Adapt?

[19:11]

• Norwegian Example:

  • Huge purchase tax cut for EVs, high tax for high-emission ICE cars—makes EVs clearly the smart financial choice.
    “You have to make it make so much sense to people’s wallets.”

• Subsidies: Pros and Cons:

  • Jack is pro-incentive (“more stick with the carrot”), Robert is wary of “subsidies for rubbish cars.”

  • The biggest shift in the UK came not from incentives, but a blossoming used EV market as corporate lease vehicles became available.

    “The percentage of secondhand vehicle sales went up… a lot… A lot of people have bought secondhand cars [and] are raving about them.”
    — Robert (20:22-22:38)

  • Battery health checking is straightforward now, giving buyers more confidence.

c. The Role of Secondhand EVs

• Used EVs make up an increasingly big share; their affordability and reliability help accelerate mass adoption.

d. EVs vs. Traditional Cars: Price Parity

• Mention of the first all-electric version of a well-known car being cheaper than either the petrol or hybrid variants.

  “The cheap version is the electric one… about a thousand pounds cheaper than the petrol or the hybrid version.”
  — Robert (23:33-24:08)

• Shift away from “distracting” electronics/interfaces in cars; legacy automakers and even Tesla reverting to simpler, physical controls.

e. Mileage Charges and Taxation

[27:05-31:49]

• Governments are starting to grapple with how to replace lost fuel tax revenue as cars electrify.
• Mileage-based road charging is under discussion, but with tricky cross-border questions (e.g., do you pay mileage tax on kilometers driven abroad?).
• Robert sees a period of “massive setbacks in some countries, support in others… I don’t think we know [the answer].”

f. Weight-Based Taxation for Cars

[32:01]

• Paris has set a precedent with city-based charges targeting large, heavy vehicles (especially SUVs).

• Jack and Robert favor taxing based on weight to discourage “car obesity” in cities and promote smaller, lighter, more efficient models, with caveats on fairness for those with genuine needs for bigger vehicles.

  “Electric cars just get better and better when they are smaller and lighter... It’s just absurd…a normal sized vehicle for one person is a two and a half ton box.”
  — Jack (33:53-35:06)

6. Tone and Notable Banter

• The duo keep things informal, witty, and candid, poking fun at themselves, manufacturers, and cultural quirks—there’s plenty of “squeaky bum time” football analogies, “sustainable Bond villain” jokes, and friendly jibes at Norwegian wealth and Aussie solar luck.

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Memorable Quotes

• “You skipped the bit where everything was just really expensive and a bit rubbish. You’ve got really high quality EVs. Super affordable cars are so cheap here compared to back home. Really not fair.”
  — Jack (04:19)

• “My niece… plugs her car in and then she drives it and that’s the end of it.”
  — Robert (03:50)

• “It can be free to run [an EV] and it could almost be… you could reach a point where your electric car is free to drive and also makes you money. That is weird… the fact that it’s plausible is crazy.”
  — Robert (08:17)

• “Terrifyingly good.”
  — Jack on Full Self Driving (09:33)

• “Be a good ambassador for [EVs] and bring your most cynical friend next year.”
  — Jack (18:20)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:01-04:18]: Observations on Australia’s EV market evolution
• [04:19-05:20]: Affordability & Chinese EV influence
• [05:20-06:02]: Solar power and EV synergy
• [06:02-07:00]: Vehicle-to-grid potential & UK price envy
• [08:48-10:30]: Experiences with Tesla Full Self Driving
• [10:40-11:55]: 15-year reflection on Fully Charged’s journey
• [14:35-19:07]: Q&A—Why is EV uptake >10%? Word of mouth, myths, infrastructure
• [19:11-23:33]: Policy Q&A—Norwegian incentives, UK used market, subsidy debate
• [23:33-25:12]: EV price parity and the rise of “digital detox” vehicles
• [27:05-31:49]: Q&A—Road taxing, charging for mileage, policy complexity
• [32:01-35:06]: Q&A—Taxing vehicles by weight & right-sizing cars

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Conclusion

This lively episode captures Australia’s unique position as an emerging global leader in EV adoption. Key drivers include affordability (especially via Chinese imports), abundant solar energy, and a population growing ever more comfortable with EVs as “just cars.” While challenges remain—policy, charging myths, and declining fuel tax revenues—the future looks bright. The UK’s lingering jealousy is offset by lessons learned about the crucial role of word-of-mouth, used markets, and simple test drives in winning public trust.

Listen to this episode for an enjoyably frank, funny, and insightful perspective on where the global EV revolution is headed—and why Aussies just might get there first.

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Transcript

[Jack]

Foreign.

[Robert]

Ladies and gentlemen and listeners at home, we are recording this wonderful Everything Electric podcast at the Everything Electric Melbourne event. And it's a lovely day and there's lots of people here and there's lots of cars and there's thousands of test drives taking place as we speak. And I think all in all for a first show in a new location in a new city that we've never done anything in before. I'm not that depressed.

[Jack]

So it's come off all right, hasn't it?

[Robert]

It's been pretty amazing. I know because they are the first shows or, you know, the first show we did in Sydney, it looked okay, but it was. I know what was going on behind the scenes. There was a lot of. What is that when the ducks do paddling or something? You know, it was a lot of anxiety and worry and it's really.

[Jack]

The term in football is squeaky bum time. It was definitely that major squeaky bum time the day before the first Sydney show and then everyone came. It was fine.

[Robert]

Yeah. Yes. It's not about the public, it's often about the motor vehicles, but we won't go into any details on that.

[Jack]

Indeed, it's been a really enjoyable show. We've had a lovely time. We hope that you have as well. This is going to be very informal, which will not come as a surprise to you if you know much about my and Bobby's style of presenting. But we thought we'd just have a little chat, share some thoughts about what we've observed here in Australia with regard to the EV transition, the state of affairs here. And we might do a little Q and A at the end if that's of interest. You can ask anything you like. Yes, don't ask when Red Dwarf is coming back because every time someone asks it goes back by one year. So I swear to God, don't do it.

[Robert]

Currently it's 2098.

[Narrator]

Our three free YouTube channels on EVs and clean energy tech are funded by our fun packed test drive Tastic events in the north west and Greater London and our events events down under. Next up, Everything Electric Sydney 2026 plus check out EverythingElectric store for merch and much more. Back to the episode.

[Jack]

Robert, what have you observed? Because the fascinating thing about getting to do these shows in different parts of the world is we get to observe how this EV transition happens in a different way in different places. So what are your thoughts on where Australia is at? Because they started late, but they sure are making up for lost time, aren't they?

[Robert]

I mean, I think the big change that I've observed say like from six or seven years ago when there were really, there were a lot of Teslas in Australia that was very common. There was a supercharger network that was, you know, well established, that's grown, you know, noticeably since I've been coming here. So I'm a regular visit. For those of you don't know, I'm a regular visit to Australia because I'm married to an Australian and that has enormous benefits and no drawbacks whatsoever. It's absolutely wonderful. And she's not here today, so.

[Jack]

So you can get away with saying that.

[Robert]

Yeah, but, but I, you know, I noticed there were a few Nissan Leafs and there were Teslas and that was very. And then I. Obviously we couldn't come for a couple of years over the COVID and everything. And when I came back I went, oh my goodness, that's. I keep, kept seeing these other cars. And I went, this is really starting to change now. It's very different. And that's what I've noticed sort of in the last couple of visits. You know, definitely in Sydney, in Brisbane, which is where my wife is from. Brisbane is just dripping with electric cars. I mean there's a lot more than I would have. I would have assumed it would be Sydney and Melbourne that would be the sort of centers of it. But there's a lot in Brisbane. My sister in law and my niece in Brisbane Both have an ATTO3 and a dolphin and they call them cars. I think this is really interesting. I think we're at this point now where we're starting to see the transition from these are weird new techno electric cars to these are cars. And then you can also get cars that burn petrol or diesel. You know, I think that's so, you know, when you see people who aren't, aren't like for instance, Jack and I and maybe one or two people here who are kind of very focused on it. We're obsessed with it. We know about ranges and battery size and charging speeds and all that. My niece is an artist. She's an amazing and creative woman. She didn't give a toss about any of that. She plugs her car in and then she drives it and that's, that's the end of it.

[Jack]

Absolutely. And I think another thing that's interesting to observe here, another part of the reason why it's happening so quickly, having started quite late, is affordability. Because you guys skipped the bit where everything was just like really expensive and a bit rubbish. So you've Got really high quality EVs. Super affordable cars are so cheap here compared to back homes. Really not fair.

[Robert]

We are very bitter, but I want.

[Jack]

You to know that, yeah, we're not happy about it. But in addition to them being quite affordable, they also have all the Chinese stuff. Yeah, all the Chinese stuff. Because you guys are basically the sort of test bed for the Chinese auto industry. And I know that most of you don't mind that at all because you benefit from it massively. China will send these new models, these new brands here and if you guys like them, they send them everywhere else. And if you guys don't like them, then they tweak them according to your feedback and your responses. And what that means is you get the really, really, really affordable stuff first and then you combine that with the fact that there is this. They got this thing called sun.

[Robert]

I know it's weird. There's a bit of it now. It's leaking now. It's terrible.

[Jack]

One of our team members got heat stroke yesterday because she just forgot that if you outside for long enough in certain parts of the world anyway, when you combine the affordability of these like really, really, really high quality, often Chinese EVs with the abundance of solar, with the fact that many of you have solar panels on your roof, you can run an EV so cheap here and it's just such an exciting thought to have your own little generator on your roof, feeding power into your car. And then one day in the not very distant future, you'll be selling some of that power back into the grid and making a bit of pocket money from your car when you're using it. That's going to be the reality for Australians very, very soon.

[Robert]

It's extraordinary. I mean, I was on a podcast on this stage yesterday about vehicle to grid developments in Australia and I think you're. I think you're going to be ahead of anywhere else in the world that you know, in a sense what is a time when it should have been America that was doing this technology, but that just. Let's just draw a very thick, heavy velvet veil over that. That's not going to happen. But I think we are starting to see the rollout of tests of vehicle to grid systems in the uk, similar to yours, but I think yours are going to be earlier and they're going to be more effective because of the amount of solar you can generate. It. It just is unfair. So the two unfair things that I get bitter about is how cheap electric, how much cheaper electric cars are. We just had an example the Nissan Ariya, was it $55,000 here in the UK, it's $70,000. We pay the equivalent of for the same car and. And it's made in the uk, so we should be getting it cheaper than you. I mean, it's just the most ridiculous, weird thing.

[Jack]

We're not bitter about it.

[Robert]

Well, that's the other thing, is the amount of solar you get off the same number of solar panels in the UK with the same inverter. I've done a test with a mate in Sydney and I just couldn't look at his results. It made me so sad.

[Jack]

But Robert has like a sort of sustainable Bond villain set up in the Cotswolds at his home. He has this incredible solar array. I mean, amazing setup. But there are probably people here with a sort of panel on their roof the size of one of my shoes that are harvesting more energy than you are on any given day in the Cotswolds. It's so unfair.

[Robert]

I actually looked Yesterday. I got 2.7 kilowatt hours in the day. I mean, it is November in the uk. It is a bit dull and overcast. It's been very cloudy still, but it's still 2.7 more than I would do. I'm the best in the summer. In the middle of the summer, I would get 64 on a good day. So that's the difference between our summer and winter. And that difference is much more muted in Australia. You know, there is more obviously in full sun and summer. But it drops, but it doesn't drop in the uk. It goes, oh, look at that. And it bang to nothing. So you have that advantage. So if you've got a roof that you can put solar panels on and you've got a car that you can plug in at that house, and with those systems that I was hearing about from the. It's not that it's cheap to. It can be free to run and it could almost be. You could reach a point where your electric car is free to drive and also makes you money. You know, that is weird that. I don't know how long and sustainable that would be, but it's. The fact that it's plausible is crazy.

[Jack]

It's a nice idea. It's something Elon Musk has been promising for a decade, isn't it? You push a button, your car goes and operates as an AUTONOMOUS Uber while you're in bed and you wake up slightly wealthier than you were when you went to bed. It's a lovely thought. Yeah.

[Robert]

Yeah. Well, I mean, I Think just briefly. Want to mention I haven't. I have been in the full self driving model Y this morning for the first time I've experienced it. I've been driving Teslas for 10 years. It is, it's so annoying. I always get annoyed when I have to agree with everyone that's done it before. How amazing it is. It is amazing. I mean, it was truly impressive and we didn't go that far and we didn't go that fast, but it was. We had a man pushing two bikes across a road ahead of us and he kind of stumbled a bit and he was nervous and he was sort of right because there was a car coming and it saw the bikes, you could see the bikes on the screen and it slowed right down and we didn't. Yeah. So it's very. It went round a roundabout, it steered round a little roundabout better than I would have done. I'd have curbed it. So it was, yeah, really good.

[Jack]

I had my first experience of full self driving a couple of days ago and I would describe it as terrifyingly good.

[Robert]

Yeah, it's.

[Jack]

It's so dialed. The guy, when he gave me the keys, he said, it's better than adaptive cruise control, it's smoother, it's more, it's so confident. It drives like a really good driver that really knows what they're doing. It's not tentative and cautious and skittish. It's just, it's, it is astonishing. It is absolutely astonishing. And someone was explaining to me that the level site, level 12 or 13 that you get here, they've got one up from that already in China and the U.S. so there's more to come. It's just I'm. I'm not the biggest Tesla fan. I'll be completely honest with you. If you've watched my videos, you'll know it's a, it's a brand that I'm very quick to take the mickey out of if there's an opportunity to do so, just because I'm a contrarian. And they were sort of everywhere initially and it annoyed me. But I have no qualms with telling you that it's the most impressed I've been with the car in a very, very long time. Experiencing that full self driving.

[Robert]

No.

[Jack]

Yeah. I think we should do a bit of a Q and A. But any further thoughts before we do any sort of profound nuggets of wisdom? What's on your mind?

[Robert]

I think it's, it's. I have used this year slightly self indulgently, mainly privately. To reflect on what's happened over the last 15 years. So the show turned 15 this year and it is. It would have been so unpredictable to. To imagine any of the live shows we've done that was not even on the. There was nothing remotely like that. In fact, I took my Nissan Leaf to a village fete in 2012 and parked. You know, the vicar invited me in a village near where I live and I put it in the. That's the first car show I did was my Nissan Leaf. And, you know, people could sit in it and look at it and some of them did. And that was next to that where you throw the coconut shy and the. Bring it the bric a brac sale and the cake competition. I did have a cake in the cake competition. I got second prize. I'm not going to go on about that. There was only two cakes in the contest. It was a very small fate. So that has. That's how I started out with car shows. And it's very much thanks to Dan Caesar, who's not here, who initiated the idea of doing events like this. And I said, don't be daft. No one's going to come. And I think it's fair to say I was wrong.

[Jack]

We remain pleasantly surprised every time that they do.

[Robert]

Yeah, yeah. But anyway, that's. Yeah, that's enough reflection. I don't want to go on about it too much.

[Jack]

Who'd like to ask us a question? Are we coming back next year? I think we're pretty much. Certainly.

[Robert]

I think we. I think it's quite lightly. It was. We were very anxious about it before the show opened on. On the previous week. But I spoke to Jo, who is, you know, none of this would be here without her incredible energy and input and the team around her. Amazing people who've worked properly. They do work really hard and for months before we get here. I mean, they're organizing everything before we get here. And I said to her this morning, do you think we'll do next year? And she said, I'm not going to say anything yet. But it's definitely not. No. I mean, I think they have to go through the spreadsheet and see what happens.

[Jack]

But yeah, it is important to remember that people put months and months of effort into these shows and we just swan in the day of. I said something slightly kind of misplaced to one of the events team on the build day. I was kind of going, God, they really just spring up out of nowhere, these shows. He was like, no, they don't.

[Robert]

They don't.

[Jack]

Spring up out of nowhere. I've slept in three months. Oh, God, this is easy, isn't it? Look at these shows pop up out of thin air, these shows.

[Robert]

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[Jack]

There's a microphone just over here. If you raise your hand, you're very welcome to ask us a question. The microphone will be brought to you.

[Robert]

I mean, one thing I wouldn't mind just getting a vague idea from you guys is how do you feel about the venue? Because we actually love this venue. I think it's really beautiful. Generally approving. Okay. And it's so easy to do test drives around here. I don't know if you've picked up on it. I occasionally get the smell of a small dairy room of cows, basically, which. This had 5,000 cows in it not that long ago, which I find really comforting and reassuring. I think some people have moaned a bit, but that's been the only negative comment I've heard at all. It smells a bit cow. Like it's not all the cow, like, at all. Occasionally you get a bit of a whiff. Have you not had a whiff of cow?

[Jack]

I can't say that I have. Whiff of cow.

[Robert]

Yeah. Yes, people have had a whiff of cow.

[Jack]

I've got a shit nose. Is that what we're saying? Okay. Didn't realize there's a question over here.

[Audience Member 1]

Yep, you've raised that. In Australia, we have some of the most affordable EVs. We've got a huge range of Chinese, but we're struggling to get above 10, 11% of the new market. What are your thoughts coming from Britain? What might be some of the reasons for that, particularly given we've got the sunshine and solar and everything.

[Robert]

I mean, I think it's just. It is a process and it's a painful one. I mean, I think we have to acknowledge that there are fairly potent forces that would rather we didn't drive electric cars, which is kind of odd. I mean, and I'm not talking political necessarily. I'm talking economic forces. So the oil industry is obviously very big, very powerful, very global. And, you know, it's not in their interest for us to stop buying their product. You know, which is completely understandable. It's not even portraying them as evil conspiracists, although occasionally they are. But, you know, that is. There is some pressure. So the stories in the press about electric cars, I think that's the key thing is. And that holds people back. They go, I wouldn't mind one of those. We can plug it in, we've got solar panels. And they'll go, oh, no, it'll burst into flames, it will blow. You'll have to throw the battery. After three years of all those things, the alarms will just go off randomly. That happens. All electric cars do that.

[Jack]

Catch fire over there.

[Robert]

Yeah, they're always doing it. And then. But then I think what happens. And I think we've seen this maybe five years ago in the uk, where it was very slow. It was growth, but it was slow. And then what you. What I've kind of worked out is no amount of advertising or YouTube videos or anything will really push those numbers. What happens is there's a bloke over the road who's got a Renault, Zoe. There's one up there up the street, he's got a Tesla and they're still driving them four years later. And you go, I'm just going to get a new car. But they seem to, you know, and that. That the word of mouth, we've heard it so many times. And that is where you're at that position now in this country, where there's enough people with them that most people will know someone or see someone that they see regularly that drives one and they're not in tears at the side of the road as it burns out or they run out of battery. I don't know how people run out of battery. It is an unusual phrase, but. And it's that confidence that's got to grow slowly. And the other one is the charging infrastructure. And people think there is no charging infrastructure. And there's nowhere I could charge if you can't charge at home. And that takes a long time. And we still get that now in the uk, where there's. Oh, there's nowhere to charge them with this. I don't know what it is. Now we're well over 18,000 public charge points with like 27 or 80. No, it's not. I'm way under. It's. It's. It's in the tens of thousands of rapid charges in the UK. They're everywhere. Every motorway services doesn't have one or two, it has 26, you know, so that. And yet still people will say, there's nobody to charge them. And we have on street charging in London is now over 150,000 on street charge point sockets in lampposts which I've used. Very easy to use if you can park there. The real alternative for electric cars in London is why are you driving a car? You're an idiot. It's the slowest way to get around, as you know, Jack.

[Jack]

Absolutely.

[Robert]

I'm not saying you're an idiot.

[Jack]

I didn't actually take it that way until you clarified. I think that we have to remember that this technology is quite other. Right. It's new and hear all this talk about kilowatt hours and kilowatts and charging rates and it sounds a bit daunting. And if you only consume tabloid newspaper journalism, you may well genuinely believe that they are prone to catching fire and that you'll have to replace the battery in a few years time for an immense cost. And there's no chargers everywhere. You know, we're not blaming people for being misinformed. We simply have to give them better information. And that's why it's so important that all of you, all of you who drive EVs, who know what they're about, who know how beneficial this technology is, are ambassadors for it. We don't have to be moaning and preachy, we just have to politely correct when we hear false information and at any opportunity show them. Because that's the best way, isn't it? Just shut up and drive that. Yeah, it's good, isn't it? Yeah, great. Thank you. You know, we like to think these shows are all about us on the stage, but it's actually just about people test driving electric cars. Because there's nothing we can say that makes it more self evident than just experiencing it for the first time. Yeah, is there? Yeah, that's, that's my, that's my spiel is just, you know, be a good ambassador for it and bring your most cynical friend next year.

[Robert]

Oh, we got another question.

[Audience Member 1]

Just wondering if there's any government policy, regulation, sort of frameworks that you think Australia could adopt from somewhere else or the UK or vice versa.

[Jack]

Really good question. We don't have much more than you guys have here with your new efficiency standards, which is kind of the same thing as we have where certain percentage of vehicles have to be small and electric. Unsurprisingly, the Norwegians are quite good at this. They've got a really fun policy where they basically have just slashed the purchase tax off electric vehicles and then there's incrementally High purchase tax on combustion vehicles based on their CO2 emissions. So if you want to buy a Porsche Panamera V8 saloon instead of a Porsche Taycan electric saloon, the tax on that car is like 100%. You're paying double simply to sort of, you basically have to go out of your way to be like, look how important it is to pollute for me. And that's, you just have to make it make so much sense to people's wallets that, you know, they, they'll, they'll just buy it because it's the obvious financial choice. And then again they drive them, they're like, oh, this is great. Yeah, I'd like to see a little bit more stick along with the carrots, I guess, is what I'm saying, Bobby.

[Robert]

Yes. Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. I mean, I think I've always been slightly, slightly uncomfortable and hesitant. It might be because I'm not a, I don't know what it is. It worries me that I'm a rampant capitalist, but I, I'm nervous about, you know, government supporting and funding a technology. If the technology is good, we'll adopt it and if it isn't any good, we won't. And I think that argument is a very good argument that the, the forces opposed to what, what we're trying to achieve can use very easily. Oh, so you have to have subsidies for these rubbish cars that don't work just to please a tree hugging, holier than thou virtue signaling, you know, whatever the hell all those boring old terms are. And so that makes me slightly nervous. And our sales figures were increasing slowly, albeit slowly, but they were going up before we had the most recent government grants announced. And that has, the figures have gone way up. But actually the figures have gone up more than is justified by the grants. And the grants are very modest, like mostly 1500 pounds, so about $3000 towards the price of a new car. The big change that we've had in the UK that you will get here eventually and that really shifts. The market is secondhand. So when secondhand electric cars make a real impact and what happened to us really last year and this year is a huge number of leased vehicles. So corporate leased electric cars came onto the market. They were three years old. They, they've been well looked after, they're well serviced, they have. The percentage of secondhand vehicle sales went up, it was like 412%, which I don't understand percentages. That sounds like implausible, but a lot, and a lot of people have bought secondhand cars are raving about them, are going, this is so good, you know, and it's done 80,000 miles and it's absolutely fine. The battery is still at 97.9%. You know, you get your. Because you can get your battery health checked. Very, very. They are. But I'm in the second hand. There's now a sort of second hand dealership networks that have grown up that understand electric cars, that drive electric cars. Whereas 10 years ago, anyone you spoke to, oh, don't get a second electric car full to bits in two weeks and you'll have to replace the battery. Now they're not saying that and that's made a big difference, 100%.

[Jack]

You can now sort of plug a dongle into a used EV and get an exact readout of the remaining percentage of the battery capacity. There's an organization here this weekend who do precise that. But that's such a good point, Bobby. The used market has blossomed in the UK and you know, who buys a new car if they can avoid it? Right. Most. Most people buy second hand. It's just the obvious way to buy cars. It's so much more affordable. It takes time. They need to be new first in order to become used and that will come over the next couple of years. That's an interesting point you made about not incentivizing things with a sort of useful stick for your opponents to beat you.

[Robert]

Yes.

[Jack]

I suppose the argument is once upon a time they were just more expensive.

[Robert]

And it had to happen early on.

[Jack]

They're not really anymore, you know, equivalent petrol and EV are so similar on price now because battery prices have tumbled. So maybe the need for massive incentives is less these days.

[Robert]

I mean, the first. I've just driven it and it's not a. I won't. I'm not even going to mention the make or the car because it hasn't been the most popular vehicle in the UK in its history. But there's a recently launched vehicle where the full petrol one costs this, the hybrid version costs that. The cheap version is the electric one. It is cheaper, cheaper, not the same cost. It's cheaper, about a thousand pounds cheaper than the petrol or the hybrid version, which I think is. That's the first one I've come across like that. And that is a European built vehicle and I think it's good that I didn't mention what it is.

[Jack]

Vauxhall Frontier.

[Robert]

All right, thank you.

[Jack]

Right, yeah, that's a good car. That's all right.

[Robert]

No, it was all right. It was all right. I'LL tell you what was interesting, man. It was D. It had a digital detox. You get in it, it's got a speedometer, it's got a radio, it's got air conditioning, it's got heating and a radio and you can plug your phone in. So that's the. It's got nothing. And I went, that is so delightful. You start driving and you, oh, I know how fast I'm going. That's all I need.

[Jack]

I think this is a movement. I actually think there's a got no apps, no fancy physical button and switch renaissance taking place. We reached critical mass in terms of how flipping distracting car interiors were, how massive and overwhelming the screens were and how many features were buried inside of them. And we're seeing it start to go the other way now because no one preferred that. Haptic buttons are much cheaper to manufacture than physical buttons on a steering wheel because it's one piece instead of lots of. No one prefers them either. So we've seen VW kind of put their hands up and go, we're sorry we messed up with those interiors. We're going back to the old way. Tesla brought back the stalk. Thank goodness for that. You know, fun to try stuff, but it didn't work.

[Robert]

Yeah.

[Jack]

So, yeah, buttons are back. I'm excited about that.

[Robert]

Don't know why bring back the stalk makes me. I think I want a T shirt with that on. Sophie, have we got someone? All right, correct me if I'm wrong, but back in the UK, your daily driver is a MG4 and a Polestar 2. If you came and moved to Australia, what would your daily driver be, do you think? Polestar 4, that's for shopping and, I.

[Jack]

Don'T know, V8 Holden Monaro. Is that fine to say? It's not, is it? That would be my weekend car. I had the Zika 7X for a couple of days before the show. It was absolutely delightful. That thing. This gentleman's making motorcycle gestures at me also. Yes, 100%.

[Robert]

Yeah.

[Jack]

I was very impressed by the Zika. I didn't really know what that brand was all about because we don't get them in the uk. And it's of course the brand of Polestar. Yes, It's a cop out answer for me. I'm going from a Polestar to a kind of nearly Polestar. But I'm a big fan.

[Robert]

The. The Xpeng P. God, you're so much better at them. The one I drove here a few couple of years ago, G6. G6. Yeah. It could be, yeah. Oh, I Mean, that was such a comfy car. That's when you're driving. I was driving with my wife and son and we're taking turns driving and I want to have a drive, you know, all that stuff. I didn't want to have a drive. I sat in the back, it was so comfy. I just slept the whole journey. We drove from Brisbane to Sydney in it and it was so easy. It was so. Such a great car. Something like that. I mean, I would definitely consider a much bigger car here. It's weird, isn't it, than I would in the uk. I'd want. I always want a smaller car there, but I would love some. Just want something that chews up the road in an environmentally sustainable way.

[Jack]

I have a question over this side.

[Audience Member 2]

Thanks for coming to Melbourne, guys. I've actually traveled up to Sydney in the past to see the show and I appreciate you being here, but the question I have is a sort of economical question and I'd be interested to hear your opinion just a tiny bit.

[Jack]

Closer to your mouth, please.

[Robert]

Different.

[Audience Member 2]

Different countries. So the state of Victoria, where we are now, attempted to put a kilometer charge on cars and the federal government made them stop and cease and desist on that. And so there's an obvious point in the politics where the police are going to turn around and say we're not going to finance these cars by giving discounts or, you know, incentives to buy them, but they're also realizing that they're not getting any fuel tax.

[Robert]

Yeah.

[Audience Member 2]

So what view do you have on that? And is this something to do with the 10 plateau or how do you feel this uncertainty is affecting the marketplace?

[Robert]

It could be you couldn't it? I mean, it's certainly something that's come up very recently in the UK and I haven't, because I've not been there, I've not focused it. But there was, there's been talk of a mileage charge in, in the uk. Now the only thing that I noticed, which is exactly the same argument that happened here, was at a Q and A with, with the Transport Minister in the uk, someone asked, what? I drive to France every year, you know, so I do three and a half thousand kilometers in France. Do I have to pay you for those kilometers? And they said yes. And then you felt a chill sink on the room and you went, oh, really? Is that how it works? And you know, because to be honest, France is not very far away from us and a lot of people go there. So it's a really complicated. Because I've always, you know, we've got to pay to use the roads. That's totally fair. I've got, I've never had any problem with that. But taxing electricity is really difficult. And I've. All the people I've spoken to, both in the electricity industry and the government, have just said there's no way we can do it, you know, so it has to be a different charge. And it might be that you reduce fuel tax but increase mileage. You know what it's going to make it bad and awkward is if some cars pay a mileage charge and some don't. And I just don't think that's going to. There's always going to be. There's going to be a lot of friction. So if your gasoline is cheaper but you're paying a mileage charge, that's the same as an electric vehicle, you know, it's still it. I don't know how that, I mean, that's a solution that all cars pay a mileage charge rather than a, than a fuel duty. I suppose that because, you know, one of the things I understood very early on, and I say I understood when it was explained to me by clever people in America, it's a disruptive technology. So it's. In a sense, it's like cell phones that we all had landlines and that there were companies that thrived because everyone had to have a landline and cell phones came in and it mashed that old industry to bits and it doesn't exist anymore and either adopted or died. And mostly they died. Well, in a way, electric cars, the same. They throw all the old ways of doing things really easy. Having you have, you have fuel, you have fuel duty. You know how much you pay on each liter you buy. And that's where the government gets their money to, you know, theoretically maintain the roads. They're not very good in England, but. And when you mess that all up and you suddenly bring in a new technology that doesn't need fuel and doesn't use and can use electricity from any source anywhere at any time, it messes the whole thing up. And so I don't think we've got an answer for it yet. I think it's going to be a long running debate. I think there'll be massive setbacks in certain countries. There'll be, you know, support for electric vehicles in other countries. I don't think we know. I haven't seen a system that I think, oh, that works. I mean, Norway, you can go. It's amazing what they've done in Norway. Norway sells more gas and oil than pretty much any other country in the world. And they're sitting there in their very, very nice houses with their lovely electric cars with a massive sovereign wealth fund. I mean, they've done it right. Every single Norwegian is worth about $700,000. You know, just from sitting in their beautiful handmade Norwegian chair with a hand knitted Norwegian jumper. You know, it makes me sick. I'm always very rude to Norwegians when I. That's why I don't get invited anymore, I think. So Jack often is presenting at the amazing Norwegian EV event. And I've always said, I hate all of you. You know, we give you all our money for our gas and oil and you just spend it on electric cars. You're scum. And they LAUGH POLITELY but then I don't go back.

[Jack]

Sorry, we're just about out of time, but we could take one more speedy question to finish the session. Hello. Just one moment, sir. Microphone incoming. I think I'm on the stage next, Robert, so we can just.

[Robert]

Oh, God. Sorry, Jack.

[Jack]

No, no, no, as in there's no rush.

[Robert]

It's just the chair's very comfy. Just a suggestion, it's not a word. Well, what's your response to it? What if you based attacks on the weight of a car or a vehicle? Sounds like a good idea to me. That drives it. Yeah.

[Jack]

Yes, they do something like that in France with their kind of inner city congestion charges, weight based. It's an interesting idea.

[Robert]

Certainly. Paris Mayor Hidalgo in Paris has brought in numerous bits of legislation that are, you know, have been described as anti car. I don't know that they are, but they're definitely anti SUV in a big way. And then the French are much more used to tiny little de Chevaux and Renaults and Citron.

[Jack]

Right.

[Robert]

You know, so it's a very different thing. But they are, they are taxing heavy, larger vehicles in Paris, this is specifically in the city, so not the whole country. But I think that is possibly a thing and that could be a challenge for the electric vehicle industry. But I think the one thing we know is that batteries are getting smaller, cheaper and lighter. And when I heard that 10 years ago, I went, not really. Now batteries are getting smaller, cheaper and lighter so that, you know, they're more, they're more energy dense, they're less big lumps and they will continue to do that. We saw stuff, I was in China earlier this year, we saw stuff being produced by Catl, Catl and other battery companies. Sorry.

[Jack]

Getting choked up thinking about getting Choked.

[Robert]

Up, just wanted to swallow at the wrong time. But, you know, the technology that's coming in the next five years is bewildering. Its cost is just so low. It's the size, the compactness of it is extraordinary and their longevity is extraordinary. Lovely. Catl are talking about 90 year batteries. They were talking to us, this is a 90 year battery. And you go, that just makes no sense at all. What use is that to me? But yeah, interesting to your, to your weight question.

[Jack]

I think there's a lot I like about that, actually. You know that we are massive advocates for smaller, lighter cars. Electric cars in particular just get better and better when they are smaller and lighter because they get more efficient, means they don't need as much battery, means they're better for the planet, more Fun to drive, etc. Etc. I mean, it's not without its issues. You know, people who. Wheelchair users might require larger vehicles in order to get their stuff in. People who have lots of children might need larger vehicles to ferry them around. Would you penalize people for having too many children? Lots of children, not too many children. Sorry, I misspoke. Slip of the tongue. But it's an interesting model and I would love to see us doing something about the endless sort of obesity crisis that we have with our cars now because it's just crazy. We did a panel about micro mobility yesterday and we were talking about. It's kind of weird to talk about scooters and mopeds and motorcycles as micro vehicles because the implication is that a normal sized vehicle for one person is a two and a half ton box. It's kind of weird, isn't it? Especially around town. So I think that it's a separate issue for a conversation for another day. But I would love to see something that pushes us towards more suitably sized vehicles for cities because it's just absurd.

[Robert]

And on that we are definitely over time. Oh, my goodness. Yes. It's now actually flashing.

[Jack]

Indeed.

[Robert]

So that shows that we've gone over and you've got to do a panel. I'm so sorry, Jack. That's very lovely to catch up with you. No, it's very nice. No, it's lovely. We always love it. We love a bit of a chin wag, don't we, Jack? Lovely. Young Jackie's marvelous. Give him a big round of applause. Isn't he marvellous?

[Jack]

Thank you all for joining us. Have a lovely afternoon.

[Robert]

Thank you.