Can Miliband Clean Up UK Energy AND Lower Bills, Or Is Net Zero Over? | Fully Charged Show Podcast

Summary

The Fully Charged Podcast: "Can Miliband Clean Up UK Energy AND Lower Bills, Or Is Net Zero Over?"

Hosted by: Robert Llewellyn
Guest: Ed Miliband, UK Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero
Release Date: June 30, 2025
Location: Kew Gardens

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1. Introduction

In this episode of The Fully Charged Podcast, Robert Llewellyn welcomes Ed Miliband, the UK Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero. The discussion centers on Miliband's ambitious plans to transform Britain into a clean energy superpower by 2030, aiming to reduce energy bills, create jobs, and ensure energy security through the deployment of zero-carbon electricity. The conversation delves into the feasibility of achieving clean power within the tight timeframe, the persistent high electricity bills, the rollout of renewable technologies, the role of carbon capture and storage, and strategies to depoliticize the energy transition.

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2. Ambitious Goals and Current Progress

Cut Britain into a Clean Energy Superpower

Miliband outlines the government's objective to achieve 95% clean energy by 2030, a target he acknowledges as a significant challenge. He emphasizes that setting a stringent deadline acts as a catalyst, accelerating progress and signaling the government's commitment.

"If you say we've got to do it in essentially five years, it puts a rocket up the system and that rocket is so important for us."
— Ed Miliband [03:16]

Policy Actions Initiated

In the initial phase, the government has:

• Overturned the Ban on Onshore Wind: Recognizing it as one of the most cost-effective energy sources.
• Approved Numerous Solar Developments: Including mandates for solar panels on all new build homes.
• Advanced Offshore Wind and Nuclear Projects: To diversify and strengthen the clean energy mix.

Miliband notes that initial skepticism from industry players has shifted to cautious optimism as the government demonstrates genuine commitment.

"Now people are saying, oh God, they really do mean it. They really do mean it."
— Ed Miliband [03:16]

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3. Encouraging Adoption Among House Builders

Future Homes Standard

The Future Homes Standard mandates that all new homes built from 2025 must be highly energy-efficient, aiming to reduce emissions by 75-80% compared to current standards. Despite this, Miliband acknowledges resistance from many house builders who are hesitant to incorporate solar panels and heat pumps.

"We're saying, well, everyone now needs to do what the best are doing."
— Ed Miliband [05:26]

Strategies to Shift Mindsets

To encourage adoption:

• Policy Phasing: Gradually implementing requirements to allow house builders time to adjust.
• Incentivization: Emphasizing the immediate benefits of solar panels, such as lower energy bills and utilizing a free resource—sunlight.
• Positive Framing: Highlighting that these changes are not just about avoiding future disasters but also about improving lives today.

"We're in the better lives business. We're not in the hair shirt business."
— Ed Miliband [05:26]

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4. Addressing Systemic Challenges in Clean Energy Transition

Grid Connection and the Connection Accelerator Service

One of the significant hurdles in the clean energy transition is the grid connection process, which has traditionally been first-come, first-served, often delaying vital projects. Miliband introduces the Connection Accelerator Service aimed at:

• Prioritizing National Interest Projects: Ensuring essential clean energy projects aren't stuck at the back of the queue.
• Facilitating Industrial Connections: Supporting industries in obtaining necessary grid connections to transition to electric technologies, such as electric arc furnaces in steel manufacturing.

"By reordering the queue to get the right generation we need, we can also open it up to industry."
— Ed Miliband [10:41]

Desire for Accelerated Implementation

Miliband expresses a strong desire to expedite processes, emphasizing the need to move beyond bureaucratic hurdles to achieve rapid progress.

"My magic wish, it'd probably be true across the board. It's, let's go faster."
— Ed Miliband [10:53]

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5. Market Reforms and Decoupling Electricity from Gas Prices

Reducing Dependence on Natural Gas

Miliband discusses the vulnerabilities businesses face due to fluctuating natural gas prices, which set the marginal price in the UK's electricity market approximately two-thirds of the time.

"By 2030, our department estimates that only about 10% of the time natural gas will set the price of the system."
— Ed Miliband [15:06]

Mechanisms for Decoupling

The government employs Contracts for Difference and other mechanisms to ensure that renewable energy sources like wind and solar set prices independently of natural gas, providing more price stability and predictability for businesses.

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6. Balancing Long-Term Goals with Immediate Relief

Energy Bill Discounts and Home Upgrades

To address immediate financial burdens on households:

• Energy Bill Discounts: An additional £150 discount for 3 million families during winter.
• Home Upgrades: Plans to upgrade 5 million homes with energy-efficient solutions, including heat pumps and improved insulation.

"We're extending it basically to another 3 million."
— Ed Miliband [16:58]

Integrated Approach

Miliband emphasizes a dual strategy of pushing forward with clean power initiatives while simultaneously providing direct support to vulnerable populations through home improvements and financial relief.

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7. Public Charging for Electric Vehicles and VAT Considerations

EV Infrastructure Expansion

Acknowledging the challenges of public EV charging, Miliband highlights efforts to accelerate the rollout, aiming to add one public charger every 29 minutes and fostering competition to reduce costs.

VAT Discussions

While reducing VAT on public charging to encourage EV adoption is considered, Miliband notes the complexities and potential budgetary constraints, indicating ongoing evaluations rather than immediate implementation.

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8. The Role of Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS)

Necessity for Hard-to-Abate Industries

Miliband clarifies that CCS is not intended to overshadow renewables but serves as a crucial tool for industries like cement manufacturing, where decarbonization options are limited.

"It's not about displacing renewables, it's about having a backup."
— Ed Miliband [19:34]

Supplementary to Renewables

CCS provides dispatchable, low-carbon power from gas-fired power stations, complementing renewables and ensuring a stable energy supply.

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9. Depoliticizing the Clean Energy Transition

Overcoming Negative Media Portrayal

Despite facing harsh criticism from certain media outlets, Miliband remains undeterred, focusing on the tangible benefits of clean energy, such as reduced bills, job creation, and improved quality of life.

"Climate first, party second."
— Ed Miliband [22:39]

Bipartisan Collaboration

Miliband highlights his collaboration with figures across the political spectrum, including former Conservative officials, to foster a unified approach toward achieving net zero.

Power of Example and Community Engagement

He believes that personal experiences and word-of-mouth endorsements from individuals who have benefited from clean energy solutions will drive broader public acceptance and adoption.

"Every person in their own way has power. Just talking to your friends and neighbors about it."
— Ed Miliband [24:21]

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10. Conclusion and Future Outlook

Ed Miliband reiterates his confidence in the collective efforts of government, industry, and the public to achieve the clean energy targets. He emphasizes the importance of empowering individuals through access to renewable technologies and maintaining momentum despite political and systemic challenges.

"The power of ordinary people to change things. That's what has happened in history, and I think that's what's going to happen on this issue."
— Ed Miliband [27:16]

Robert Llewellyn acknowledges the depth of the discussion and hints at a follow-up episode to address remaining questions, signaling an ongoing exploration of the UK's energy transition journey.

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Key Takeaways:

• Ambitious Targets: Achieving 95% clean energy by 2030 requires accelerated policies and robust government commitment.
• Policy Implementation: Overturning bans on onshore wind, mandating solar panels on new homes, and advancing offshore wind and nuclear projects are critical steps.
• Systemic Challenges: Improving grid connection processes and decoupling electricity prices from natural gas are essential for stabilizing energy costs.
• Public Engagement: Depoliticizing the energy transition through bipartisan efforts, community engagement, and highlighting immediate benefits can foster broader acceptance.
• Comprehensive Approach: Balancing long-term clean energy goals with immediate financial relief and home upgrades ensures both present and future benefits.

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This summary encapsulates the core discussions and insights from the podcast episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened. Notable quotes have been included with proper attribution and timestamps to highlight key points.

Transcript

[Robert Llewellyn]

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Fully Charged show podcast, where today we're in the rather fabulous Kew Gardens, where we're joined by Ed Miliband, the UK Secretary of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, the man who is trying to make Britain a clean energy superpower to cut bills, create jobs and deliver security via cheaper zero carbon electricity by 2030. Or, and depending on which newspaper you read, he's the guy who's the Net Zero zealot with a messianic devotion to climate action. Now, in this conversation we're asking, can we really hit clean power by 2030? Why are electricity bills still so high even after the promises to cut them? Are we on the cusp of deployment of various heat pumps and solar panels? Why are we still talking about carbon capture and storage? And how do we keep the public on side and prevent this becoming such a deeply politicized topic? We're going to get into all of that, but I should caveat two things. First of all, this is a reasonably short conversation. We only had 30 minutes of the Minister's time, so there are so many questions that remain unanswered. We'll have follow up with round two and two. We are in a greenhouse, which means that the lighting conditions are challenging and definitely upsetting our videographer. There are of course some planes going overhead and I have to say for myself, I'm rather sweaty.

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[Robert Llewellyn]

You've got a very clear make Britain a clean energy superpower to cut bills, create jobs and deliver security with cheaper zero carbon electricity by 2030. How do you think you're doing?

[Ed Miliband]

Well, I hope I'm doing okay. I don't want to be immodest. We thought a lot about our plan in opposition because I had experience of being in government before and government is like a whirlwind. Opposition is karma. And so we thought quite carefully about what was the right mission to have, why was it the right thing for the country. And it came from really a lot, from the Russia, Ukraine crisis where people's bills went through the roof, businesses, families, government ended up paying out lots of money and the energy security aspect of that and lower bills of moving towards renewable electricity, the jobs opportunity and climate, obviously, which is a long term interest of mine. And so we sort of, if you like, had the framing and the plan in opposition and now we're trying to implement it and go as fast as we can in government.

[Robert Llewellyn]

It's so interesting because everything that you describe, job security, lowering bills, all of this sort of stuff is stuff that, you know, should seem completely cross party, completely partisan, and yet somehow this conversation has become quite politicized. Something that I do want to explore as we go through this conversation. But perhaps it's worth, before we get into that sort of describing what is the scale of the challenge and particularly with a clean power by 2030, which of course means 95% clean energy in just six years. How huge is that challenge?

[Ed Miliband]

It's a big challenge. What we've tried to do in the first year is within our first 72 hours, we overturned the ban on onshore wind, one of the cheapest forms of power we have as a country. I've approved lots of solar developments, some of which are not that popular, at least in some of those places. We've got now a policy of having solar panels on all new build homes as fitted as standard. That's sort of really, really important. Driving forward with offshore wind, nuclear, you know, it's all of the clean energy we can get. But it's a big challenge. But you know, there's something quite interesting about this, which is if you say we're going to do it in 10 years time, everybody relaxes, everybody's like, we've got 10 years, we don't need to worry, we don't really need to go that fast, it'll be fine. And then you end up missing the target. If you say we've got to do it in essentially five years, it puts a rocket up the system and, and that, and that rocket is so important for us. And having the Prime Minister's authority, it's one of his five missions, is really driving it forward. And what's interesting for me is that lots of people in industry will, when we first said this about two or three years ago in opposition, were quite like skeptical. And now people are saying, oh God, they really do mean it. They really do mean it. And I think that's sort of, that's kind of important. And there's no time to waste for climate reasons, energy security reasons and so on.

[Robert Llewellyn]

So interesting because as you say, it's a rocket up the system. And this is a paradigm shift which requires various components. It needs the carrots, it needs the sticks, it needs the targets, but it also requires mindset shift as well. And I wonder, you mentioned in there that the future homes plan and I'M just going to refer to my notes here, so I get this right, so future home standard. That means that all new homes built from 2025 must be highly energy efficient, reducing emissions by 75 to 80% compared to current standards, essentially making them net zero ready. But when we look at what house builders are doing today, apart from a few exceptions, they're not willingly putting solar panels on the roofs, they're not willingly installing heat pumps. How do we encourage that mindset?

[Ed Miliband]

Well, you know what's quite interesting about this, because I was looking at the figures on this, it's. I think I may not get this perfectly right, but I think it's something like two in five house builders are doing it in the most recent period for which we have data. Solar. These are solar panels. So you're seeing a shift and what we're going to do, and it will actually be phased in this new policy to give people time to adjust. We're sort of saying, well, everyone now needs to do what the best are doing. And you know what's so interesting about this was you said carrots and sticks. I'll be honest, I'm in the carrots department less than the sticks department, because the solar panels is, in a way the most simple thing. It's like, what's not to like about the idea? What's that? You build from the beginning solar panels on rooftops. That means lower bills. We've got this free resource. We've got this great free resource which is the sun. Why not use it? And why not use it from the get go, not say, oh, well, after the event, we then have to spend lots of money replacing putting solar panels on with when it'd be so much cheaper to do it from the beginning. So I feel quite strongly, and I think this is the theme of your podcast too, that we're in the better lives business. We're not in the hair shirt business. You know, this is good for people. It's good for avoiding disaster tomorrow for future generations. It's disaster avoidance, definitely when it comes to the climate crisis, but it's also good for today. It's got to be good for today to get people to come with you, I think.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And the better lives point is really interesting because you can't help but notice so many of these challenges, if tackled in the right way, are totally intersectional. For example, if you have a future home standard with better insulated homes, cheaper electricity and a heat pump that you can have heating all day, that will have better health outcomes, better economic outcomes for families within your department. And this is sort of me sort of probing is how does this all work? Are you able to have that completely intersectional and joined up way of thinking, or does it still government really finds.

[Ed Miliband]

Being joined up a challenge And I think we are getting better. I wouldn't say it's perfect, but that's what we're trying to do. And look, in a way, I think it's partly about the role of politicians, which is to try. I'm a bit of a nerd, right? So I'm always in the detail of policy. But I think the thing I've learned over my political career is okay, be the nerd if you want to be, but, but don't squeeze out setting the overall frame and direction. And that's what the civil service is really good at. If you set the overall frame and direction and say, this is where I want to go, you know, people will come with you. You know, at the moment we're thinking, well, how do we do more to roll out solar on rooftops for existing homes? How do we make it worth people's while to do that? And it's such so interesting to me that, you know, the lesson I learned most of all is if you give that direction, you can then get the sort of the response.

[Robert Llewellyn]

So coming back to some of those bigger systemic challenges because whenever we look at what's holding back the clean energy transition, it often comes down to mindsets as we'll come onto skills and grid connections. And I prepared my notes last week and then thank goodness, you know, I was keeping an eye on the news yesterday because yesterday you announced the Connection Accelerator Service. Can you tell us what that is and what it's aiming to do?

[Ed Miliband]

Well, in order to do that, let me just go back one stage we've had because I think your listeners are very well informed and viewers, so they'll be familiar with this. We've got this big problem in Britain which is we've had this first come, first served grid process whereby people essentially get in a queue and get a grid connection date. And that means even the project, the projects that might be the most vital might end up at the back of the queue. So when you think about 2030 clean power that we talked about earlier, you might find a project that's really important to us, but they're being told when you can only connect in 2037. So we're saying, okay, that's enough of that nonsense. We know what we want to achieve, we know broadly the parameters of the different technologies we need. You Know offshore wind, onshore wind, solar, etc. We're going to now have a much more intentional process to say, okay, these are the people who are going to get to the front of the queue because this is what the national interest demands. These other people are going to have to wait a bit longer. Now what that then opens up is more space by dealing with some of the zombie queue problem. Opens up more space not just to get the right power connected for generation, but also this is where the connections accelerator comes in. Also saying to industry that wants to connect to create good jobs because it's not just a concern of power generators, it's a concern of industry that they can't get the grid connection. You know, I want to convert to electric arc furnaces. I'm a steel manufacturer, can I get the, can I get the connection data I need? I'm a business in another area, I'm a data center, can I get the connection I need? And so what the connections accelerator service does is then says, okay, by reordering the queue to get the right generation we need, we can also open it up to industry.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And if you could be granted a magic wish that would help the delivery of that connection accelerator service, just be a seamless rollout. What wish would you ask for?

[Ed Miliband]

Gosh, that's such a good question. Look, I suppose my wish is always to go faster. So I always want things done like that, you know, and, but because these things are complicated and you've got to make sure that everything balances and so on, it always takes a bit longer than I would like. So I'm always the person saying, well, can't we do that faster? Government has a lot of mechanisms of consultation and feedback and all that. And I think if you're a politician who wants to get things done quickly, that can be quite frustrating. Why do we have to go? You know, I often think, well, why do we have to go through this bureaucratic process? We know what we want to do. Yes, we want to bring people on board and so on, but let's just get on with it. So I think my, if I had a sort of magic wish, it'd probably be true across the board. It's, let's go faster.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, I had, I was at an event yesterday and there was a representative from the equivalent of the grid or equivalent energy provider in Ukraine. And fingers crossed when the conflict ends they will be left with one of the most future proofed, innovative distributed grids.

[Ed Miliband]

Interesting.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And it always seems so sad that innovation comes in times of crisis, when Actually, if we have five to six years, let's use them wisely to go.

[Ed Miliband]

But I think you're making such an important point here and I learned a lot from Patrick, Sir Patrick Valens, Del, Lord Valance, who chaired the Vaccines Task Force. And his point to me was, when we've sort of modeled this a bit for our Clean Power mission, because we have a Clean Power mission control, we call it, in a sort of Star Trek type way that's trying to drive this process. But he always said, look, if you have the authority of the Prime Minister and you have a sort of burning platform, you can really drive things through government. And you know, I think this is, goes back to this earlier point that if you really set an exacting timetable, you can break through some of the logjams. And, you know, it's amazing what human ingenuity and business together can, and government and civil society can do, working together.

[Robert Llewellyn]

The other thing you mentioned there was businesses getting an adequate connection to the grid. Here in the uk, businesses have had the dubious honour of having some of the most expensive electricity in the world. I know that that was also something released yesterday in the Industrial Strategy. How do you foresee the reform in the electricity market and aiding businesses to make this a great place to do business?

[Ed Miliband]

Well, clean power is crucial to this because, look, obviously some businesses face these costs of building the networks we need in the future and we took some action on that yesterday in the Industrial Strategy, particularly for the more energy intensive businesses. But the truth is that I was looking at what UK Steel said in response to what we did yesterday and they said now the big issue is our exposure to natural gas, the fluctuations. And it's quite interesting for your listeners, we what we call what you call a price taker, not a price maker when it comes to fossil fuels. So how much fossil fuels we produce, we don't have enough in the North Sea left to change the price. It's all price on the international market. That's why when Russia, Ukraine happened, when Russia's invasion of Ukraine happened, the price goes through the roof, both for what we produce in the North Sea and what we import. And that's the thing that business is now exposed to. When we've had real instability in relation to Iran, what we're seeing again is these fluctuations in prices. So the best thing we can do is just drive forward with clean power because then you're, you're taking the jeopardy out. You know, when it comes to renewable auctions or nuclear, it's a fixed price, at least for 15, 20 years, you know, so it's clear sort of what the price is going to be. People can plan on that basis. So that, that's why, you know, that's why clean power is for us, so.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Important, because with the marginal pricing that we have here in the uk, it's contingent on having enough volume of renewables on the grid so that you're less exposed to the price of natural gas dictating the cost of electricity. Do you think it's valuable to decouple the cost of electricity from gas?

[Ed Miliband]

And now you've got me right into Nerdsville because this is so exciting. So I can tell you, these figures that we've got because I've just, they've been crunching through the department at the moment, natural gas sets the price about two thirds of the time in the uk. That's the sort of marginal price. And because of the way the different mechanisms work, quite a lot of renewables are associated with that price. Even though they're not natural gas, it's renewables, but they take that price. So it means that for the majority of the time, natural gas sets the price for the whole system in the new world. By 2030, our department estimates that only about 10% of the time natural gas will set the price of the system, of everything in the system. It'll set the price about a third of the time. But renewables will be, a lot of renewables will be decoupled from that. That's the scale of gain that clean power can. We're achieving that decoupling because of the mechanisms, the contract for difference mechanisms that we have in place. And that's the key thing. So in other words, you know, not just getting off the power you use being from natural gas, but getting off natural gas, setting that price in that way.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But it seems to me you have two really huge challenges. I'm sure you have more than two, at least two, at least two worry beads. The first is obviously the fact that this has become highly politicized, which we'll come on to next. But the second is that a lot of your job is around expectation management, because 2030 for some seems like a very short period of time away. For others, when they're really struggling with their bills, it feels a life changing.

[Ed Miliband]

100% true.

[Robert Llewellyn]

So how do you square that? How do you bring people on this journey and continue to keep lowering those bills down in a more immediate time frame?

[Ed Miliband]

So that's a really great question. So long term vision, also Medium Term Vision, 2030. In the meantime, what we're quite focused on is how do we take action now. So just give you an example. Recently, last week, the Prime Minister announced, alongside me, alongside the Prime Minister, announced that we were going to give an extra discount on energy bills this winter of £150 for 3 million families.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Ed Miliband]

There are already about 3 million who got it, and we're extending it basically to another 3 million. It's that kind of action. We're also going to upgrade 5 million homes over the course of the Parliament. Energy efficiency, heat pumps and so on. Another 5 million homes benefiting families, benefiting from lower bills. So the way I think about this is you've got to do this top down, which is dealing with the headline number of the bill and you drive forward with that through clean power. And at the same time, you take action underneath that for different groups in society, the most vulnerable people having their homes upgraded. I talked about solar, which is something else. We're working on giving people access to solar, more people access to solar panels. So I think you do both of those things and what it all amounts to is let's get the benefits of renewable energy. Excuse me, to people, as quickly as possible.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. There are two things which, if I don't ask these questions, I know that someone in our comments is going to say, excuse me, did not ask these questions. The first is a quick one. Public charging on electric vehicles. 20% VAT.

[Ed Miliband]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

At home, 5% VAT. What are your.

[Ed Miliband]

I think I'd be sort of vaporized by the treasury if I said, oh, I agree, we've got to cut the vat. Look, I know that public charging is an issue and the price of public charging is an issue. We're rolling out, I think, one public charger every 29 minutes. I think I'm right in saying. So we've got to roll more of them out. Great. More competition. Obviously, that VAT issue is something we continue to look at. It's got to make financial sense for people. I think it does broadly make financial sense, but there's obviously quite a big mismatch between charging at home and what happens at public charging points. It's a good point.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Second one, carbon capture and storage. We can absolutely agree that in any kind of future energy scenario we will need some degree of carbon capture. But I think something that frustrates our audience is that it seems like we hear more about the carbon capture and less about some of this rapid deployment of renewable projects. Is this a way of keeping the fossil fuel lobby happy?

[Ed Miliband]

You know, that's sort of not the way I think about it. I mean there's no bigger enthusiasts than me for offshore wind, onshore wind, solar. We've consented more nationally significant solar, I think in the last 11 months and the last government did in 14 years, a lot more. All of the renewable technologies. I think carbon capture though, actually what it gives you, it's two things. One for industry, it enables them to decarbonize. I was talking to somebody from the cement industry who's actually got a big carbon capture sort of cluster that he's overseeing, which is crucial for the cement industry. There's no real way for cement to decarbonize without carbon capture. The second thing it does is think about gas fired power stations. What they give you is dispatchable power so that you can turn them on and off. What carbon capture capture gives you is that dispatchable power in a low carbon way. And so, and it's not about displacing renewables, it's about having a backup, if you like, in the system which you can turn on and off in a way that is decarbonized. And you know, people talk about these big numbers, 21 billion over 20 years and so on. Compared to the amount that is going into renewables, it's much, much less. You know, renewables is the thing that is really going to be the backbone of the system. This is a really, really important supplement to the system, support to the system. But the core, the real heart of our system is going to be renewables alongside nuclear.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I mean, it's really interesting because I think it's especially important to note those hard to abate industries for whom it might be their only choice. And of course this is being explored at the same time as dispatchable power from grid scale storage as well. Okay.

[Ed Miliband]

Which is also very exciting. I think that's what's so exciting about this area. And presumably you find this in the podcast. Long duration storage batteries, potentially tidal. There's just such a range here and I sort of think you need all of them.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. And I suppose that's the sort of fundamental shift that we're exploring. It is this range of solutions, loads of different things and there isn't a silver bullet. And that's harder for people who are less engaged with this topic to maybe get their head around. Okay. So I think I want to turn this conversation towards how we bring everyone along on this journey because no question, people who can see those future targets of low energy bills, clean power jobs, it sounds fantastic. But there are others who are like retrofits are Messy and it's an inconvenience and it's a faff and it's expensive and. And equally, you've had. I was quite shocked by this and this is really going to expose which news outlets I'm reading. But you've had a lot of abuse.

[Ed Miliband]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

The articles which primarily appear in the sun, the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph, they love me.

[Ed Miliband]

Really.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Well, they've labelled you as all sorts of terrible things. A net zero zealot with a messianic devotion to climate action, with calls for your removal. A, how does that make you feel? And B, how can we take the heat out of this discussion and depoliticise this?

[Ed Miliband]

Such a good question. I mean, how does it make me feel? I don't care, really. I think if you, if you try and make change happen in politics or in life, you get people who don't agree with you and that's so be it. I, I do care about the climate cause I also care about getting people lower bills and energy security and I am so struck by the good jobs we can create. How do we take the heat out of it is a harder question. I think my view is sort of climate first, party second. In other words, I like working with people from all political parties. You know, I praise Theresa May for having put net zero into law. Alok Sharma, who was a really good friend of mine, he was my, sort of. I was shadowing him, but he, you know, he was the president of COP26. I think he did a really great job and he's an incredibly good guy. I was with Greg Clark last night as part of our industrial strategy. He shadowed me and was the business secretary under the last Conservative government. So I want to reach out to as many people as possible across the political spectrum. I think in a way, though, in the end, the way this works is partly through the power of ordinary people passing on the example, what's going to make heat pumps popular? Your neighbor having one and thinking, oh, it really works quite well for me.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And you have your heating on all day. How lovely.

[Ed Miliband]

Yeah. And you know what's going to make, what's made solar successful? Solar panels on rooftops, people saying it's quite good, it just cuts, you know, cuts my bill. And so I think that that power of example, and, and I'm not just saying this, but I think, you know, the power of your listeners and viewers to. I think climate can make people feel quite powerless, but I think every person in their own way has power. Just talking to your friends and neighbors about It. And saying, well, actually, it's been really good for me. It's not just good because it's good for future generations or my kids or nephews or nieces, but it's actually good because it's saved me money or it's creating jobs or, you know, I've got a better quality of life or it's cleaning up the air, you know, all of those things. I think, I think, I think what's going to win this is partly word of mouth.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Ed Miliband]

And the sort of tide of people saying, it's been good. I've got a heat pump. You know, to be honest, lots of people said, oh, you know, it won't work, and blahdy, blahdy, blah, and it's been really good. You know, heat pump and battery. You know, the other thing is here, empowerment. You know, we're the people who want to empower people with a battery, a heat pump, solar panels, you know, to be able to control their energy bills when they use energy. All of those things in all of.

[Robert Llewellyn]

This anecdote is really, really important. And continuing that conversation. So, two questions and I promise you, no, it's fine. It's fine. For anyone who's listening, who maybe has. How should I describe someone, a son or Daily Mail reading friend.

[Ed Miliband]

Sure.

[Robert Llewellyn]

What would you say to them to pass on to their son or Daily Mail reading friend?

[Ed Miliband]

I think to understand that when change happens, people can be anxious about it, but to say, you know, don't believe the people who tell you that somehow this clean energy thing is bad for people. It is about people having better lives. It's about people having better lives today, and it's about doing the right thing for future generations tomorrow. And it's a simple, and if you want to know what it means, a solar panel on your rooftop cutting your energy bills. Who could possibly object to that?

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. Well, I think that is a perfect note to end on. I feel we need to continue this conversation because I've not asked you about supply chains, I've not asked you about, you know, various other bits to do with electric vehicles, but we will have to leave it there. But thank you so much for giving up your afternoon.

[Ed Miliband]

It's been great to be on it and thank you for what you're doing and your listeners and viewers on through your podcast, because, you know, the thing I feel most of all as a politician is that it's the power of ordinary people to change things. That's what has happened in history, and I think that's what's going to happen on this issue.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Oh well, we're very grateful to honestly our incredibly engaged and motivated audience.

[Ed Miliband]

Thank you so much.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Thank you, thank you. That is all that we have time for today. As I said at the beginning of this episode, we've probably generated more questions than we provided answers, so we will have to follow up with with a round two I think. But before you go, if you could do us the honour of liking, subscribing or letting us know what you think in the comments or all of the above. It is so valuable. We so appreciate it. It really does ensure that we can keep on telling the important stories in this clean energy transition. But that's it. If you have been thank you for listening and watching.

[Duracell Energy Representative]

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[Robert Llewellyn]

And the best installers in your area.

[Duracell Energy Representative]

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