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Everything Electric Podcast
Clean Energy in a Divided World: The Global Power Struggle!
00:31:18
This episode was recorded live on stage at our Everything Electric Farnborough show during the panel Tariffs, Tensions & the Race to Electrify: How Global Politics Is Shaping the Clean Energy Transition. From trade barriers and protectionist...
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- [00:00]
A
Hello and welcome to the Everything Electric podcast. This is a bit of a special episode. This was recorded live at Everything Electric in Farnborough and that stage there has some very, very clever, well informed people that you will see in a few moments. So sit back, get your popcorn ready and enjoy. Our three free YouTube channels on EVs and cleantech are funded by our fun packed test drivetastic events in Farnborough, London, the Southwest, the North, Melbourne and Sydney. And next up, Everything Electric Melbourne and new for UK viewers. You can now buy a battery, EV and much more at EverythingElectric Store. Now back to the episode. That was embarrassing. Sorry. That was a good start. I walked on with a pen instead of a microphone. The microphones. The microphone in the pen is quite good if you're a lunatic. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome. And our first panel today is obviously very, very timely and it's a very important topic. So it's the title. Tariffs, Tensions and the race to Electrify. How global politics is shaping the clean energy transition is a topic that we internally discuss quite a lot because there's obviously a lot of positive and negative news in the news cycle. Obviously the negative news obviously catches the editor's attention and so they'll go with that. But every now and then a little bit of positive stuff leaks in. So I'm sure you, many of you will be aware of this, but there was a very recent report, I think, from the International Energy Agency that renewables produced more energy around the world than coal for the first time, which is a kind of fairly important tipping point that actually got into mainstream news. Was mentioned on the BBC totally impartial broadcasting channel and they said all those things, but they obviously not at night or when it isn't windy. Well, thank you for that because none of us had ever worked that out. We all thought solar panels work really well when it's pitch black at night because we're complete morons. Sorry, I'll move on. So I'm joined thankfully by really nice people who actually understand things and are very intelligent. Right next to me is AJ Alawalia. Thank you very much. Who's head of supply chain@ren renewable UK. Next to AJ is James Cort, Public Policy Director for Octopus Electric Vehicles. Next to James is Tim Dexter, Vehicle Policy Manager at Transport and Environment. And next to Tim is a very, very sudden arrival. Hence no slide because we had a bit of trouble with all our panels. This is Tanya Sinclair from Electric Vehicles uk. Please give him a welcoming round of applause. Thank you very much for joining us. So, AJA Can I start with you? I mean, how do you feel the situation is at the moment? I think we are seeing a sort of kickback, a pushback against, you know, being virtue signaling, tree hugging renewable nonsense. It's all garbage. Let's start fracking.
- [03:11]
B
Thanks, Robert. Look, I think some of the key messages I wanted to get across, recognize in terms of the context of things, is how over the last 10 to 15 years we've all benefited from the cost of energy or particularly things like solar PV or wind turbines and the whole supply chains have seen this massive reduction in cost. And now what we've seen is since conflict in Ukraine and other supply chains and commodity prices and cost of energy increasing as well in some parts is how the cost of that supply chain is increasing as well. So this great and fantastic journey we've been on with particularly micro renewables, if you think about people's homes from a domestic perspective, is that cost profile has reduced and that's enabled this transition to happen. I come from that sort of larger offshore wind space and now we're pushing. Now what we're seeing is the cost of some of these installations and these assets increasing now. And there are various different reasons in and all around that. But one of the other things to take into consideration is how, yes, we want low cost energy to feed things like our batteries and our EVs, but we also want to make sure that there's positive stories of local supply chain content in the UK as well. And there's great evidence for those factories and facilities coming online at the moment in the uk. But also we want to see so much more. And recognizing the new government and understanding what their interests are in creating those things is something that's very much part of my role.
- [04:34]
A
Right, right, James. I mean what I feel is that if there has been any kind of negative PR or spin or kind of pushback against electric vehicles in particular, it really hasn't worked. I mean we're just seeing this constant increase in demand for electric vehicles. You can just witness it on the, on the roads. I mean there's more of them on the roads than they were five years ago.
- [04:58]
C
Yeah. And I think it has almost been sort of a constant line up. And I think we're now into, I think it's 36 months in a row that electric vehicle sales have gone up. We're nearly now one in four cars, new cars sold in the UK electric and we were so close last month and I think it might happen in the next couple of months is that electric vehicles are Going to overtake petrol. I think petrol is around 26, 27% last month. This is new cars, These are new cars. So within the next couple of months we could see the EVs overtake petrol in car sales, which is huge. And if you try and think back to sort of 2015, 2016, 2017, actually me and Tanya were still working around Tenna at that point was sort of still. We were both these two. It was really new. It was like. And there was discussions going on about whether it was going to be electric or whether it's going to be hydrogen. And then you sort of Fast forward to 2018 and there was a 2040 target and a 2050 target and you think, God, those are ambitious. And then you even look at the EV target, the ZEV target, the targets that are in place for sales that were passed in 2019, 2020. But we're hitting these targets year on year. And I think the other thing to look at is the cost of cars and we're seeing a lot of them. I should probably. I'm not quite used to. I've only been in corporate for a year, so I should probably say there is a lovely Octopus EV section where you can see a full range of cars but names that you would not have heard of five years ago. You look at BYD and they are overtaking some really established brands and that's because they are now cheaper. We are beginning to see now that equivalent cars from petrol to EV, we're beginning to see the first time that EVs are now cheaper than petrol and that is going to become the norm in two years time we'll probably hit price priority around on average and then the whole thing's going to kick off. So probably I'll tempt sort of my thinking and some of my next answers is if you see the pushback from OEMs and certain governments, the big question you have to ask is do you think that EVs are just going to be the norm in 10, 15 years time? Do you really think there is going to be a market for petrol cars in 10 to 15 years time? If your answer like me is yes, that sorry, no.
- [07:22]
A
Oh, he's just been fired. Is the ex electric vehicle man from Octopus.
- [07:27]
C
Well, I should say my new contract starts for. Yeah, I'm starting for Stellantis tomorrow. I forgot which way I pondered the question there. Yeah, I believe that in 10, 15 years time there will not be petrol cars, there will not be a market for it. If you think that too, some of the moves coming out of the governments and the OEMS is mad. You see the future of 10 or 15 years time and you're desperately trying to cling on to what is going to be a dead industry. It doesn't make any sense to me.
- [07:52]
A
I mean, just very quickly before we go on, I was in China earlier this year and I think I witnessed, in a sense, the future in many ways, in terms of technology, not necessarily in terms of human rights and politics, I'll leave that there. But in terms of technology and the way that their logistics run and their infrastructure is extraordinary. But we were walking down a very busy street in the middle of Shanghai. All the vehicles were electric. The buses, the rubbish vans, the delivery vans, the scooters, all of them 100% electric, all the cars. And then we had. And it was a Ferrari. And what you saw was what will happen in the future is really, really wealthy people might buy petrol cars in 20 years time. They'll be incredibly expensive, they'll be really difficult to refuel because there's only one refilling station per city, you know, because who's going to buy petrol by then? And it's the exact opposite of the beginning discussion around electric vehicles. Oh, they're only for rich people who want to virtue signal and blah, blah, blah. That's. That will be turned on its head. Only wealthy and slightly annoying people. Oh, maybe they go together naturally. Not all of them, you know, will buy petrol cars. You know, I think there will be a few left.
- [09:04]
C
I think it will. You will look a bit kooky.
- [09:06]
A
You will look a bit kooky. Yeah, yeah, Tim. I mean, apart from cars and apart from the kind of very localized uk, I mean, where do you see the big changes in electric ground transport? I mean, is the UK and Europe, are we ahead? It's very hard to tell. I've just been in Denmark and you go, oh, my God, this just electric. I've just seen traffic jams full of electric cars. You know, there's. That adoption has reached real, really high levels. How. How are we doing in Europe?
- [09:38]
D
I think across Europe we probably have two different perspectives on this one, which is quite paternalistic in terms of. We feel that we're probably a world leader in this and we should be, and, and that we're far more modern than a lot of the rest of the world. I mean, we definitely are in terms of America, that's. That's definitely without a doubt at the moment. And then one that's also complacent, which I think James was getting at. As well, which is the fact that we're not. While we, while we kind of have access to electric vehicles, there's no real sense of urgency from government or OEMs about making sure that we're driving this out as fast as possible, because this is a real risk. As James said, this is a question of do we want to have automotive industries in the UK, in Europe, in 10 to 15 times, times 10 to 15 years time, or do we want to see that all vanish and just be subject to a load of cheap imports from China? And that's great to have those cheap imports and it's important for a lot of people. But unless we make sure that we've got something that's competitive across the uk, within Europe, then that's all going to disappear because there won't be a viable business model for those organizations to hold going forward. And then when it comes to that kind of paternalistic approach, we imagine that we're doing really well and maybe we're making so much progress, do we need to be going so far so quickly? But you look at some of the, some of the emerging economies, the, the rate of progress there is astounding. Vietnam didn't sell a single, barely sold a single electric car in 2021. They're reaching almost 50% of vehicle sales being electric at the moment.
- [11:08]
A
So they're almost, almost overnight. Yeah. Incredible.
- [11:11]
D
Straight to electric. And that's because Chinese OEMs are coming in. It's similar picture with Indonesia. We'll probably start to see it more with India soon. So there's a real risk that we start to fall behind, not just in terms of manufacturing, but also in terms of consumer markets too.
- [11:24]
A
I think it is the thing that really blew me away about China. I won't go on about China too much, but was this. It was the scooters in a way. The cars, I've sort of seen them, they're still cars that it was, the sheer number. So it's in the hundreds of millions globally of scooters. If you look at electric powered ground transport, the vast majority has two or three wheels. And then there's this sort of the icing on top of the cake is the cars. But the. And it was one time on the corner and it was not flash and it was not a tourist area. Bit of a scruffy shop on the corner of a street in Shanghai with a little battery exchange thing. And I was standing there with Elliot who presents some of our shows and people just come on their scooters, they get out, take Their battery out. This is like a 70 year old woman. She'd take a new one out, put it in, off she went. That was quicker than stopping at a garage, getting a. It was quicker, it was more convenient.
- [12:16]
C
What were you doing in this dodgy street corner in Shanghai?
- [12:19]
A
Elliot took me there. He said, you're like this very dodgy. It was a perfectly respectable street corner, Tanya. I mean you're that. This is an area that I find fascinating and terrifying is sort of the interaction between industry and government and the legislation that's going through and then the kind of hints I've had at the force of the leverage that for instance, the fossil fuel industry has over government. And that's what you're dealing with directly. I mean, are you still in the middle of that maelstrom? Are you still feeling overall optimistic about the shift to electric ground transport? For Justin, that.
- [12:58]
E
Yeah, this is a really interesting question because that terrifying space you describe, I've been working in it for 15 years. So I really would have thought in that time that we would have increased the education level of governments and people in positions of influence to be able to make policy in a way that understands kind of how quickly this industry is growing. That said, I think what we're actually having is due to, I'd say misinformation and disinformation out there is a kind of backsliding of knowledge and yes, amongst consumers generally, but also amongst politicians, councillors and other people that are in positions of influence to shape our policy. So part of the work that we're doing at EV UK is, is going out there and addressing that misinformation head on and ensuring that we can all enjoy a market that's continuing to grow and continuing to prosper.
- [13:51]
A
Right.
- [13:52]
B
Do you mind if I jump in?
- [13:53]
A
Please do. I was going to turn to you, yeah.
- [13:54]
B
And I guess if I can just build on what Tania said there, I think certainly in the EV space or where people are expected at a local level to make decisions or see different things happen in their vicinity or their locality. For us, in terms of where does the power come from to charge your vehicles, we talk about this social mandate that we as a country have as well, which is. Okay, well if you do want to build these onshore wind farms or these offshore wind farms, if you do want to have these grid connected energy storage systems and this massive amount of rewiring that we're going to see across the UK with regards to grid reinforcements, well, how is that also benefiting not just in terms of clean power, but how is that actually benefiting us as a society? And one of the key messages I'm going to keep coming back to it, which is that there's great opportunity in the UK to see new factories and new facilities which create those jobs for people in the UK as well. And there's already great examples that of cable factories being built in Scotland or the north of England, or new monopile factories being built in the northeast as well. It's a brilliant story that does exist. Just to say that it's happening today. But in terms of all of that production and all of those things coming to the uk, we are seeing more and more of it as well.
- [15:10]
A
Right. Because I think that is a critical thing. I mean my argument has always been do we want to import the fuel? I mean just importing fuel, which we do by the. Well, it's billions of dollars a week that goes out of our economy to pay for the fuel that we burn once in combustion engines. You know, there is that argument which I think crosses a lot of the political spectrum. It's not, it's not tree hugging. It's like that doesn't make any economic sense. If we can produce the fuel we need in this country and employ people to make that possible. That is a very.
- [15:41]
C
I mean it's one of the biggest geopolitical reasons why you want to move to electrification and why you want to move to EVs. It is sort of. I actually remember, God, this is going back in time, sort of. This was 2006, 2007, so still sort of Iraqi, George Bush sort of war in the Middle East. Yeah, thank God we've put all that behind us. And I remember this big scary sort of five star general coming over, a proper neocon American general. And he came over and he, you know, addressed a green sort of environment conference and he just said, every time you fill up your car, I'm not gonna do the accent. Cause I know this is being recorded. Every time you fill up your car you are funding terrorism and it's like, wow, wow.
- [16:26]
A
I've never dare say that.
- [16:27]
C
But it did begin to see. So you can see. And this brings a new political dynamic in. But it is a reason why a lot of countries are moving towards electrification and EVs is because they want to break that reliance.
- [16:38]
A
Yeah.
- [16:39]
C
From that to sort of. Another point that we also really need to crack though is that if we are going to be asking people to electrify, we need to make sure that electricity is cheaper.
- [16:48]
A
Yes.
- [16:48]
C
And that is the biggest thing because we are Beginning to see policy costs come on. Electricity is still getting more expensive. And I think for things like especially public charging, if you're like me and you haven't got a driveway and you haven't got your own charger, there is always going to be that premium. If you're on a low cost overnight EV tariff from, let's say, octopus.
- [17:09]
A
It's so unfair. I mean, in a sense, you're very privileged.
- [17:12]
C
I'm getting into the corporate speak. This is.
- [17:13]
A
Yeah, yeah, it's good.
- [17:14]
C
That's like ap where if you are on a public charger like mine, even through Electroverse, it is still about 48p. That's, that's a big old jump and trying. And that gap for the 40% of people that don't have a driveway, that is always going to be there. But there are so many things that we can do both trying to reform the electricity sector. So when AJ's beautiful wind turbines are blowing and nobody wants to use it, well, how can the electricity sector, how can EVs suck up all of that during the night? Can we get an electric system that really benefits and really promotes flexibility when it comes to charging? Can we get some of these tariffs and some of these taxes off of electricity and onto things that we don't want people using? There are lots of things I think that we need to see the government do because it's, it's always going to be there if we don't address that. And it's an unfair thing to make people move into if you're not doing everything you can to make it as cheap as possible.
- [18:07]
A
I mean, I don't know. I'm going to ask you, aj, but if anyone else can explain this, why our wholesale electricity price is dictated by gas, by the, the cost of gas, because that does seem like that would re. I don't. I just feel like that's wrong. I don't want that to be the case. But is that the case? That is definitely what made electricity prices rise after the Ukraine invasion?
- [18:28]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And I think just to shine a light on it for the vast proportion of the audience and people who may be listening on the podcast. I think this is one of the key things that we do need to demystify or debunk, which is that people often reflect on the cost of energy, of cost of electricity, to be specific, and for some reason, perhaps it's in various media outlets believe that that cost is a direct resultant of the, of the clean transition in terms of the electrification of our energy system through renewable generation. But as you've said, Robert, as well, it's just that actually, the price increase that we're seeing in electricity is directly as a direct resultant of the volatile cost of gas and how gas sets the price in terms of when you burn the gas to set the price of electricity. So, first and big message I want to get across is that the cost of your electricity isn't increasing because of renewable energy. It's predominantly based on the cost or the volatile costs of gas. So that's message number one. But, yes, there is this question, this ongoing question of how can we potentially decouple? And that's where a lot of policy thinkers are at in terms of how do we try to make sure that this cheaper, renewable energy is actually being recognized rather than the perception being that it's still. It's still based on renewables rather than in gas.
- [19:43]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [19:44]
D
Just to come in on that. So a few weeks ago, I must have been subject to some kind of disciplinary action because I was made to go to a reform party conference as part of my work, which was a new place to go. And it was very interesting, but kind of tying it back to this thing about where are we at in terms of global politics? There is a huge narrative change here. Not just about kind of is it the right time, Are we doing at the right pace? But there is a huge push about the fact that the kind of the push towards green energy is being, well, in words of one other speaker, that it's being artificially manipulated by somebody sat in a cave somewhere stroking a white cat. This is what we're up against and this is what's causing a push towards another form of energy security. Because that side of the debate do see the need for energy security, but they see it through shale fracking, through North Sea oil extraction, and there's a huge push on this at the moment. And they're utilizing the fact of high energy costs at the moment to try and drive this political wedge and see it as a massive opportunity.
- [20:43]
A
I mean, just before Tanya, I mean, it's so much easier. I could easily make the argument against renewables, against electric. It's so much easier to do. It's all nonsense. The environment's fine. Don't worry about it. Don't even think about it. It's absolutely fine. Buy a diesel suv. It's brilliant. It's fantastic.
- [20:59]
B
It's fine.
- [20:59]
A
That's so much easier to go. Let's think about this incredibly complex problem that will take ages to try and work through and explain is much Much harder, which is what we've been doing. But Tanya.
- [21:09]
E
Yeah, I just wanted to bring all of that context, that global geopolitical context right down to this room and think about what that means for people thinking about buying an electric vehicle and what that means when they read information or hear information at party conferences without any critical thinking about whether that's a reliable source or whether that information is accurate. That puts them off buying an electric car that they might have otherwise been thinking about buying, or that puts them off thinking about an electric car that they might have been thinking about in two years. And so yes, the line is going up and yes, we're on the brink of some real record breaking numbers, but there's a huge population out there that are at risk of being put off because their understanding of the energy crisis and the world is something that makes them nervous about transitioning into a new technology.
- [21:59]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [22:00]
D
And also just Justin as well, bringing back that back down to kind of every individual. This is why things like access to affordable charging is so important. Because the stories that are going to influence these people aren't necessarily the big ones that kind of land in the Guardian or land on the BBC. It's the fact that they know someone on their street that's got an electric vehicle and they're saving money. If they've got know someone that's got an electric vehicle, wasn't able to access the kind of charging on the driveway but have to end up paying more than they do possibly for fuel from the fuel pump, then they're going to say why have they wasted all this money? And it's a negative story. And that has far more of an impact from hearing that from someone that you know than hearing the kind of us talk about it in generic terms.
- [22:36]
B
And if I may, I think that's, I think someone talked about how we've regressed before and I think for me that's one of the saddest things is I'm a big fan of this event and I've been coming for several years, but it feels like historically we had won the argument. This concept of not only is clean energy good for the environment in terms of climate change, but also recognizing that as a consumer the costs are going to decrease and you know what, there'll be other things like job creation as well. Yeah, unfortunately I, I worry, and we can probably all see it, is that we've perhaps regressed from that point of view. So we've got to get back onto that front foot telling people those reasons. Sometimes evidence, facts and Statistics aren't necessarily the right way, but it's perhaps some of those empirical cases where someone on your advocates in this, in this audience as well. By the way, if you've got solar panels and ev and you're seeing your cost reduce, tell your neighbor who's sort of curious about why you're doing those things and explain why it's, why it's. Why it's cheaper. So we're all, we're all in this together and that's one of the things I like to, to communicate people is just the opportunity there is. We need to give people those facts, we need to give them the evidence and we need to really explain to them why it's benefiting them. Not, not just them on a personal level, but why it will help the country as well.
- [23:49]
A
Yeah, no, very good point. I've been very remiss. I usually do remember actually to say at the beginning, if anyone has a question they'd like to ask the panel, there is a microphone in the middle. So I'm doing it now and we haven't got very long left. So if anyone has a burning question that they want to ask, please do go ahead in your own time. We haven't got very long though, so do go there quickly. Can I ask you, Tanya, about the, the motoring industry? The, the, the arrival of Chinese cars? It's, it's, you know, I've been talking about it probably for 10 years because I could sense something was happening but I didn't know how long it would take. But I mean, it' such a, such a big thing that it's a general knowledge now that there are Chinese electric vehicles for sale in this country. What is the reaction to that amongst other European manufacturers, amongst British manufacturers? Yeah, I mean, can you. I'd love to ask this of all you. I mean, how the, how that's being.
- [24:49]
E
Received considering it's been coming for over a decade, like you say, and be before that, the components of the vehicles, which I knees before, the vehicles themselves, when the brands were. They've been caught off guard, their electrification programs are, you know, it's like trying to retrofit onto a, you know, not just a combustion engine factory, but a mentality, a corporate mentality of building combustion engine cars, trying to retrofit electrification onto that. And there's, it's, it's showing now that it's not possible to keep up in terms of market share, in terms of price competitiveness, in terms of technology and specification comparison. It's, you know, irrespective of where the other car's from. The companies that are built to deliver EVs en masse for the global market are going to win this when this market out.
- [25:42]
A
Yeah.
- [25:42]
D
And just on that, I'm going to actually steal a point that James normally makes so passionately, which is the fact that the zero emission vehicle mandate that's in place for manufacturers is the UK's largest decarbonisation policy. It's the one thing that's making us reduce CO2 more than any other policy that's currently in existence within the country. And not only that, it's fantastic because it's a great economic policy, it's a great way to make sure that we do have these industries here in 10 to 15 years. But at the same time that's kind of being weakened because when UK based manufacturers do sometimes go to the government and plead poverty or the fact that they may struggle to meet these, well, we can just change that regulation. So it's not really much of a stick because I think it's been changed twice in the last 12 months already. So how robust is that and why are we forcing some manufacturers to try and play by those rules, but then just moving the goalposts when we need to? It may be the case that some UK based manufacturers do need to kind of feel a bit of heat for a couple of years, but this, it's definitely by making sure that they're going about that transition as quickly as possible is in the long term interest.
- [26:44]
A
Did you?
- [26:44]
C
Yeah. I mean, I always saw the ZEV mandate both as a climate policy, but also as a kick up the bum to our OEMs when they were still about five to seven years behind the Chinese. And this was our chance, whilst it's still a nascent area that can we get this expertise and knowledge. The maddening thing is, is that the first mass produced electric vehicle was in the uk. We had the head start on this, we gave it away and we are struggling to get it back. And if you keep on listening to people who are worried about or this year's results rather than people that actually care if there's going to be manufacturing in this country in 10 to 15 years time, and that's what I hoped government ministers would be there for. Trying to give the long view, not oh my God, my bottom line this year means please can you relax the restrictions that we need for the EVs.
- [27:32]
B
I mean, just to add to what James said, that lithium ion technologies were invented in the uk.
- [27:37]
C
Yes.
- [27:39]
B
Going beyond electric vehicles, but just also recognizing how there is so much innovation and well, let's not forget this country has its part in the industrial revolution.
- [27:49]
A
Right.
- [27:50]
B
We can do these things and we shouldn't forget that we can do these things as well. What I would say from a renewable generation perspective is that there's great things that we are doing across the UK which is world leading, for example, with offshore wind, but part of it is understanding what we're good at and double downing on that. And through things like the offshore wind industrial growth plan, but also things like the UK industrial strategy, which helps different businesses and organizations really corral around what are the things that we should invest in. We need to make the concept of commercialization of industries and innovation. We need to really lean into these things as other countries have done and recognize what we're good at and hopefully get that out there so ultimately we can provide these products and services that consumers and other individuals need at a cheaper price, not just in terms of, of it being a UK made product.
- [28:36]
A
Yeah, yeah, we've got a question, We've got time for one question, so I'm glad you're on your own.
- [28:43]
B
So it's back to the gas setting the cost of the energy.
- [28:47]
A
But do the clean energy providers gain.
- [28:49]
B
From that so that helps them invest?
- [28:52]
A
Good question. Well, at the moment they can, can't they?
- [28:54]
B
It's not my, it's not my absolute area of expertise. But what I would say this is electrical engineer talking, happy to answer questions on that space, is that yes, for the earlier, earlier projects which were pre contract for difference, the rock systems or the renewable obligation certificates are indexed to the price of power at that moment in time. So there is admittedly a function where they are benefiting from those cost prices at that moment in time. So gas is actually helping us possibly to roll out faster? I think so. But what I would also just say is that those renewable obligation certificates do have a fixed period of time, so they will stop at which point then those renewable assets will be selling power at the market price.
- [29:34]
A
I mean it is, if you think back just a bit historically that I don't ever remember and I didn't follow it very closely because I was buying petrol. But if, but there was, I can't believe there was ever a time when the wholesale price of electricity went negative. When we were burning gas, nuclear coal, you know, those before wind turbines, before solar panel, there wouldn't have been a negative price. And I don't think it happens very often, but it has happened. I've, I've benefited from it with an, an Octopus tariff. Other. Other. Other distributors are available. But, you know, it made no sense. I charged the batteries in my house, did all. Put all my washing and my tumble dryer on, charged two cars and got paid to do that. I mean, it was for. Only for like a couple of hours, but the fact that that was even remotely possible gives the impression that there is. That there is something happening in that, you know, a disruption happening. But that's never going to be forever, is it?
- [30:30]
B
No, it's not. And I think some of those things that negative prices you described there are based on the system as it currently stands.
- [30:35]
A
Yeah.
- [30:35]
B
If we think about what the system needs to be in the future, hopefully and as quickly as possible, we'll see the expansion of the grid that makes sure that where power is generated, it can get to where it's consumed in as quick and as cheap a way as possible, which should alleviate some of those factors as well. But unfortunately, we've been a victim of our own success in the sense that renewable generation has come online quicker than what we've been able to roll the grid out in time of that as well.
- [30:58]
A
Yeah. On that very, I think, really important and also optimistic point, we need to. We've gone 37 seconds over our allotted time slot. I'm always told off when I ramble on too much. Thank you very much for listening to that. Can we just give a really big round of applause to this panel. What an amazing discussion. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you.