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Everything Electric Podcast
Collapse or Consolidation? Does America or China hold the trump card on electric cars?
01:06:15
Robert catches up with Elliot Richards for an in-depth discussion on the global automotive market, exploring China's growing influence, the current state of the U.S. industry, and the impact of tariffs on American manufacturers. They discuss the...
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. Welcome to the Everything Electric podcast. Very excited to introduce today's guest. Not really a guest because he's one of the family, Elliot Richards, who's in Shanghai at the moment with his gorgeous three babies, who stayed up extra late to record these episodes and who also, I will point out now, this was a technically very difficult episode to record, and I think it's down to a very, very old set of earbuds that I've got that do something to. I don't even know. I have no idea. It's way above my technical pay grade, but it's screwed up. So this, this episode comes in. It's in one thing for you, but it was made in three different sections for us, so if there's any repetitions, that's possibly one of the reasons. And also a slight change in clothing because we recorded it over more than one day, so it doesn't. It's irrelevant to the topics we cover. But that was just to explain what was happening. So it was a technical challenge, which I think we've now solved, which is a great relief. I just want to say that the next show is in Vancouver very, very soon. Everything Electric Vancouver. And after that, which is interesting I've just heard today, I shouldn't really go on about it too much, but I'm very intrigued. We're doing Everything Electric at Farnboroug in, just outside London in the uk. And I've heard that our ticket sales are very, very good. They're much higher at this time, at this stage before the show than we would normally expect. And that could partly be down to the fact that we have now recorded two episodes of a new show called Zapheap, which is like scrap heap challenge, like I used to do, except it's with electric batteries and motors. We're doing the tests live at those events in October at Farnborough, October 11th and 12th. And they're going to be either spec. They're going to be spectacular regardless. But they may be spectacular disasters as well as spectacular successes. We're really looking forward to doing that. So the entire cast of the shows are going to be there. Colin Furze will be there. Imogen and Jack and myself will be presenting those. Those. The tests for those machines. And then we will release the first episode in November, early November, when it's. The edit is finished. They're kind of more complicated edits than the fully charged crew are used to because there's more. Hundreds more cameras. So it's a big project. It's a really exciting project. I'VE seen the first cut of the build of the first machine and it is, it's like classic scrap heap but without engines. But it's not like, oh, why can't you have engines? Because it's, you know, they make a noise. Yes, I know, but it's different and it's an experiment and we would beg your indulgence because I think it's pretty amazing. And the teams that make the machines are extraordinary, really, really talented and really, they come up with some amazing stuff. So that's very exciting to look forward to that. But enough of that. We're going to be talking about the global automotive market, the impact that China has had on the rest of the world, the situation in the United States with the cessation of import reports of Chinese things, of tariffs and how that's affecting the American auto market. Elliot's very, very tied into all of this. It's a fascinating conversation. So please welcome to the Everything Electric podcast. Elliot Richards, live from Shanghai. Our three free YouTube channels on EVs and clean tech are funded by our fun packed test drivetastic events in Farnborough, London, the southwest, the North, Melbourne and Sydney. And next up, we're in Canada for Everything Electric Vancouver. And for UK viewers, you can now buy a battery EV and much more at EverythingElectric store. Elliot, thank you very much for carving time out of, from your, from your parental duties now that you have some more fresh new babies.
- [04:07]
B
Yeah, yeah. If people don't know the news, we had twins over the summer, so we now have three children here in Shanghai. So it's. Yeah, it's been quite a roller coaster this summer. Yeah, A lot of babies in the house crying and a lot of high emotions. But it's been really good. Babies and mama healthy and happy and we're just about surviving. So. Yeah.
- [04:36]
A
You'Ve just shown me. They are ridiculously cute. They are really extraordinary. So you're very. No, congratulations and thank you. No, they look lovely. They do look lovely. So I, I missed it. So your wife Jenny was pregnant When I was in Shanghai, I remember the last meal. We went out on the last day and that amazing place, I don't know where that was. Some sort of bizarre village, Rivers and people.
- [05:00]
B
Yeah, there's like a, A watertown close to where we live here in Shanghai, close to where the exhibition was.
- [05:05]
A
Right.
- [05:05]
B
And we had a traditional kind of cuisine from this area. It was very nice, wasn't it?
- [05:11]
A
It was lovely, yeah, it was great. Yeah.
- [05:14]
B
Yeah. Have to get you back there again.
- [05:15]
A
I know it was Amazing. So, I mean, because I've been trying not to talk about China too much to people here, you know, but every now and then, you know, if people are foolish enough to ask me, what, what, how did you get on? I do go on about it a lot, but I mean, it was. Out of all the countries I've been to in the world, you know, I had so many, you know, pre. Prejudices, I suppose I had so many, you know, my. And my. Because of my generation and you know, we hear the, The Cultural Revolution and the big, you know, all those things. It was just a thing, it was a story. Then to suddenly turn up at this incredibly modern country with the vastest buildings, the, the amazing. I mean, all the infrastructure, just the physical infrastructure, I mean. And you know, to be fair, I only saw Shanghai and where was the other time we went to on the train? It was that Hangzu or.
- [06:10]
B
Yeah, Hangzhou.
- [06:10]
A
Yeah, Hanjo, Hangzhou. So I didn't see like the whole of China, but it was genuinely remarkable experience to go there and it was made much easier, thankfully, having you there to guide me. I think even though once you've set it up, going through turnstiles at a train station, very simple. If you don't know what you're doing.
- [06:32]
B
You'Re in all sorts of trouble. You end up in Mongolia or somewhere. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think I'm obviously very happy that you guys got out here because I think we've always said, all of us have said that for people to understand China a bit more and especially in the early days when we started doing this and yeah, showing videos from China, people are very much like. People are like, oh, this is great. This is very nice, you know, great to see what China is really like. But there was a contingent of people who were like, you know, more negative comments. Yeah, I think in the last few years we've seen those kind of comments disappear as I guess China becomes more mainstream, more people visit and more people actually understand that what they've managed to do here is out. It's just remarkable, you know, growth of this mega. These mega cities and everything's clean and the infrastructure works and. Yeah, yeah. So I'm glad you guys got in and you enjoyed it and you got back safely as well.
- [07:33]
A
Yeah, no, it was amazing. It was truly amazing. And actually, one fact I just read the last week was that just the rate of change and the scale of change, I think those are the two things that stayed with me was the, you know, what had happened even in the last 10 years though. So since you've been living there it's been transformed. But one of the things that happened last year was last year in China they installed more solar than America has in total, ever. And America is not sluggish when it comes to solar. They've been installing it for years. You know it's not like they, you know, they've been very, very keen to do it but in one year they, they installed more than America ever has. And, and, and that. And I can't remember how. It's over a thousand gigawatts of solar now in China. It's just mind boggling.
- [08:23]
B
It is, isn't it? And you know we've seen this multiple, in multiple industries that when China really puts its mind to doing something.
- [08:30]
A
Yeah.
- [08:31]
B
They, they set to achieve it within, you know, 10 or 15 years. So the bullet train that you went on.
- [08:37]
A
Yeah.
- [08:38]
B
10. How long ago? Like 10 years ago. That, that didn't, or 12 years ago. That didn't really exist. Right now it's the largest high speed rail network in the world. Of course.
- [08:47]
A
Yes.
- [08:48]
B
You know the electric car industry, everything really.
- [08:52]
A
Yeah.
- [08:53]
B
It's, it's just boggling mind, mind boggling. And I think for me it's really nice to get your perspective because I've been here and when you're in somewhere you don't see that much change but then you get, people come here and they say oh wow, okay, this is, this has changed because of this. And so it's really great to get outsiders perspective into China.
- [09:13]
A
One of the things that has stayed with me, a memory that's very clearly stayed me is, is Chinese guys about my age. So the older generation who generally seem to have a cigarette hanging from their mouth.
- [09:24]
B
Yes.
- [09:25]
A
On, on the trice, on the kind of battered old tricycles that would clearly have had a two stroke engine on but they've been converted to electric. But they still, they're actually, they're still the noisiest electric vehicles on the roads there because they're kind of clanking and grinding and there's old chains rattling around them and they've usually got a load of old metal, you know. That's right, scrap metal on the back. But I love that. So they're wearing what I would consider were sort of Chairman Mao era suits.
- [09:50]
B
Yes.
- [09:50]
A
And they got the cap on and they got a cigarette.
- [09:53]
B
Yeah.
- [09:53]
A
But they've still got an electric vehicle still that really took away. I saw, I saw a few, quite a few of them and I just really, I went, look at you, I'll Do Fantastic. You've still got the cigarette going.
- [10:05]
B
I mean, it's funny, they're moving with the time in. In one area of their life, Right. With their transport, but in other areas they're still sticking to what they know. Right?
- [10:14]
A
Yes. Yeah, yeah. No, that was extraordinary. But, yeah, the train. I think the train stuck with me. The scooters, you know, walking down a busy central city in a massive city, down a really busy central street with loads of traffic and loads of scooters and you could hear birdsong and people's footsteps. Yeah, it's uncanny, isn't it?
- [10:33]
B
I mean, we stood outside the hotel and there was. There was no sound or smell. And you guys. Like, this is so strange. We can hear everything. We can hear.
- [10:41]
A
Yeah.
- [10:41]
B
The birds. You can hear the. The river nearby. And this is in the middle of Shanghai. And you.
- [10:47]
A
And also another one that I cannot believe, but I've had to look at video footage that we shot. There was the. The flowers in flower boxes along the highways. And you go, well, you can imagine it being a little bit near a posh building or near a government house. There might be a bit of that. But this went on for hundreds of miles.
- [11:05]
B
Who.
- [11:06]
A
Who's gardening it? Who's planting it and looking after it? I mean, it was really well maintained. Miles and miles of beautiful flowers. It was just. That was extraordinary.
- [11:15]
B
It was, wasn't it? And I think even. That's why I think it's important we went out to the countryside of China as well, just to see what the other side. But even there it was. The roads were amazing. You know, there was street lights everywhere. 5G was everywhere.
- [11:30]
A
Yes.
- [11:31]
B
Food was great. Yeah. So because it's quite easy to get kind of a Shanghai goggles on you.
- [11:37]
A
And think in the city.
- [11:39]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, all of China's like this. But I think we got to Hangzhou, we got out to the countryside and I think. Yeah, yeah, you can see a little bit of a different perspective as well.
- [11:48]
A
It was, you know, that was a lovely moment, like looking up at terrorist farming, you know, up a mountain with bamboo forest around. And then I could actually hear people.
- [11:58]
B
Yeah.
- [11:58]
A
Chatting with each other up on the farm. And you're going, oh, that's. That's very different. That's not like Shanghai. Scruffy people growing vegetables up. Exactly, yeah, yeah.
- [12:09]
B
So what have you been telling people? What's been your. Like? They say, oh, Robert, you've been to China. What was it like? What have you been replying? What have you been saying?
- [12:18]
A
I mean, it is Generally in this, the kind of realm that we talk about, you know, obviously the traffic, the shift in that stuff. I mean, talk about Catl, which we must talk about, you know, amazing going to see them and their next generation of batteries and the fact that they must have made their announcement about the $10 battery. They must have known about that when we saw them because they didn't mention it then.
- [12:39]
B
No, they didn't.
- [12:42]
A
Because that's quite a big thing. But anyway, we can talk about that in a minute. But you know, I mean I, I think the, the general attitude I've got from. And this is just a random selection of people I've met since I've been back, it's quite a, A positive response to that. They're quite pleased to hear that. And I think what's shifted globally in the. Of the world's population outside of the USA is that the USA was deemed by, certainly by European countries, particularly by the UK as a friendly, ally, supportive country that would stand up for us against, you know, friend or foe. That is. That is so changed and it's been a real trauma, particularly in Europe, I think, you know, Europe has depended on the USA since World War II. And suddenly China looks kind of attractive. Yes, they're very stable, you know, they don't go crazy. They've not invaded hundreds of other countries in the last hundred years. I mean, that may change, I'm not saying. But you know, as a, as a general rule, you look at China, you go, well, they're not, you know, they're making really good cars and nice. They've got really good trains.
- [13:52]
B
Huge progress with solar and yeah, wind and everything. Right.
- [13:56]
A
So, yeah, it's a complicated political shift that we're going through.
- [14:03]
B
Very much so.
- [14:04]
A
You know, but anyway. Yeah, no, I mean, I would say it's, it's been a generally, it was a generally positive experience for me and a quite an interestingly positive response from people I've spoken to. And I'm actually going to a. An afternoon at home, as it's called, amongst more OSHA members of society in a couple of weeks time. And I'm really intrigued to meet them because they, I mean they are sort of very traditional conservative people.
- [14:29]
B
Okay.
- [14:29]
A
In a. With. In a small C. Conservative in a good way, but very traditional. And I'm intrigued to know. And also two of them are ex military, so I'm wondering.
- [14:36]
B
Okay.
- [14:37]
A
I do want to ask them about it because, you know.
- [14:39]
B
Yeah, that'd be interesting.
- [14:40]
A
Yeah, I might have a different perspective.
- [14:42]
B
I don't know but yeah, very much so.
- [14:45]
A
But that, I mean there's a lot of things we, I mean, can we start with Catl? Because that was a remarkable visit. And what I think we. There was nothing we could have done about it. What caught people's imagination was us driving.
- [14:57]
B
Around in the ridiculous skateboard chassis.
- [15:00]
A
The skateboard chassis, which was great, but in a sense, you know, what they're actually doing there is remarkable. As, as in, I mean, you've presumably heard the news about the $10 battery, the sodium battery.
- [15:12]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's funny, isn't it? Because you, you don't think, I mean, a battery company doesn't sound very interesting, right? You're like, oh, batteries, like, okay, fine, you know, they do one thing.
- [15:26]
A
Yeah.
- [15:27]
B
But what CATL are doing is so many things in so many different areas. So building their own skateboard chassis, for example, is insane. So they're almost becoming their own kind of manufacturer. Then they've got these wild breakthroughs with batteries. So I remember a few months ago we saw the. I'm going to get all my facts mixed up, but you remember seeing at the CATL stand they had the, the 1224 volt battery for trucks.
- [15:54]
A
Yeah.
- [15:55]
B
Instead of using like the old lead up acid battery for trucks which, you know, lasted a huge amount of time, longer, etc. Etc. Then they've also got the super fast charging and then now it's all about sodium ion, which we've been hearing about for a long time, very long time. And now they're offering it and saying, well, this is going to be the cheapest battery you can get, is going to, you know, decrease the price of cars by, well, who knows, 30% maybe. Yeah, yeah, I think it's.
- [16:25]
A
And for sort of, you know, massive storage for like multi gigawatt batteries suddenly become economically plausible because it's, you know, they're not, they're not $700 million, which they would have been a few years ago, you know, there might be a million dollars for a massive, you know, battery array that would power a city. It's that kind of, that it's just absolutely groundbreaking. And also it's made of salt. Yes, effectively, yeah.
- [16:54]
B
You know, one of the most abundant materials on earth, you know, easily available anywhere it doesn't have to really be mined.
- [17:00]
A
Yes.
- [17:00]
B
Like some of the other materials. So yeah, I think, you know, and I think, you know, what the whole company are doing is that it's very engineering focused but for the good of everyone. Obviously want to make money. But yeah, you Know, I think I just love Catl.
- [17:20]
A
But let's move on because there's things that on my list of topics there's wind rose trucks, I've never even heard of windrows trucks so I don't know what that is. But they're, they're in trouble. Are they? What? That's a Chinese company.
- [17:34]
B
So yeah, it's kind of a.
- [17:37]
A
I.
- [17:37]
B
Think it's run by a Chinese guy who set up, and they've set up this like a Tesla Semi kind of alternative and they've taken it to New Zealand and tested it. I think Roger's met them and Roger Atkins has met them and tested it. Yeah, Gavin Shoebridge in New Zealand has met them and tested it.
- [17:54]
A
I haven't seen that. Okay.
- [17:55]
B
And making a huge splash because they were coming onto the market very quickly. I think within. I'm gonna get all my dates wrong but within like two years they bought a product from concept to market. I think it's cheaper than the Tesla Semi and they were getting orders but they've basically announced I think a few days ago that they're allegedly insolvent. So we don't really know yet. But apparently they've, they've basically gone bankrupt. They've run out of money. You know this, this is very typical I think of the industry at the moment. There's a lot of hot money or was a lot of hot money going into EVs and EV development, new companies. But they're failing very quickly now and we're starting to see a bit of a contagion I think through throughout the industry. Through throughout the industry where there's companies that are going under because they don't have enough sales, they don't have enough investment. So I think this year we've already seen one of Geely's brands, Jidoo, which was like the right joint venture with Baidu, which is the Google of China. They had like a self driving robo car, just wasn't that popular, didn't sell particularly well. And so Geely basically closed them down.
- [19:07]
A
Right.
- [19:08]
B
And so I think this is. Windrose is kind of one in a long list of companies that are probably about to collapse because I think the pressure now is so high, especially in China. Like you know, people have bought their EVs maybe a few years ago last year. They don't need another new ev.
- [19:25]
A
Yeah, they last quite a long time. That's one of the problems.
- [19:29]
B
And they don't really go wrong. That's the problem. So I think yeah, everyone's feeling the pain. Even BYD themselves, I think, are. They're facing headwinds, they're not struggling, obviously, they're still selling huge amounts of cars, but even I think that they're seeing a bit of a slowdown, so there's a big worry about what's, like, what's coming. And I think Windrow is kind of the tip of the iceberg.
- [19:52]
A
Yeah.
- [19:54]
B
You know, so that's why they're expanding so much into overseas markets. Middle east especially, you know, Europe, the uk, Australia, New Zealand. That's why we're seeing such a big push from these automakers, you know, with amazing finance discounts. You know, I think in the uk, BYD have said, oh, we'll match the government grant. Right. And just take that off. Yeah.
- [20:16]
A
Extraordinary. Straight. They said that on day one. You know, everyone else was reeling going, oh, what do we do? What do we. Well, it's a lot cheaper. We'll take seven grand off it or whatever. You know, it's like three grand off it, you know, going, my goodness, that happened so quickly. Yeah. But I mean that. I think the thing we got to remind ourselves is that, say, 25 years ago, 90% of the car companies that we can now talk about didn't exist.
- [20:38]
B
No.
- [20:39]
A
You know, they're all really new and that was, you know, I think that we've seen those kind of explosive bubbles in technology in the past. Well, in fact, when cars first started, the amount of car company names, I remember Googling it once, there's about 600 names of American car companies that were in the functioning about, about 1910. Well, I've heard of probably five of them.
- [21:00]
B
Yes.
- [21:01]
A
So 99 of them went under, you know, which I think we're going to see something like. It's. It's kind of inevitable, isn't it?
- [21:07]
B
Yeah, it is. I mean, you know, I don't think it's. And people say, oh, legacy brands are just going to go under. No, it's not. I mean, it's.
- [21:14]
A
No, they're not.
- [21:14]
B
There's going to be a lot of Chinese brands going under in the next, I don't know, maybe six months. Potentially. Having spoken to a few in the last few weeks, I know that, you know, cash is very tight. You know, a lot of automakers have made people redundant.
- [21:32]
A
Right.
- [21:33]
B
Sales, even though they're still reasonable, they're just, they, they're just burning cash. They can't, they can't keep up. And I think, yeah, we're reaching that point now, saturation point, whatever it might be, where we're going to start seeing all of a sudden probably a lot of companies going under, being taken over, being consolidated. And this is probably when we'll see maybe some overseas Western OEMs either taking over these Chinese companies or the other way around.
- [22:02]
A
Right?
- [22:02]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think everything is up for grabs and this is really about to be the wild season of, of evs, I guess.
- [22:12]
A
Yeah. I mean, it's just incredible how the, the, it feels like the technology is rumbling on regardless of what any individual political leader might say in any particular country. I mean, what Ford have just announced with their next generation of. And that is, that is so inspired from Ford executives and chief technology officers going to China going, oh my God, look what they're doing.
- [22:37]
B
Exactly.
- [22:37]
A
I think we might need to do something about this, you know, and their announcements recently, you know, are extraordinary. What the, you know, the level of investment, the scale of investment that Ford, you know, you just think, well, that is, that is, if you want to talk about legacy, that's probably as much legacy as you can poke a stick at. You know, they've been around quite a long time.
- [22:56]
B
Yeah. And I think what, you know, what Ford are doing is, is remarkable. I think they're a little bit slow. They have been obviously quite slow. You know, you know, Renault have shot out the gates with an amazing product and people love it and the sales are, you know, doing really well.
- [23:12]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [23:13]
B
I think I saw Jeremy Clarkson has said that he likes, raved about it. Yeah, yeah. And you know, Jeremy Clarkson who, yeah, famously doesn't really like evs.
- [23:23]
A
Yes.
- [23:24]
B
So if Ford can, you know, borrow some of that magic, then there's, there's still everything to play for. It's not over, it's not going to become the China show in a few years time.
- [23:34]
A
No, no.
- [23:34]
B
You know, people still want good quality cars from well known brands that have been around for a long time, I think.
- [23:42]
A
Yeah.
- [23:42]
B
If Ford can get it right and they've been known to get it right in the past, then they should stand, stand in good stead in the future.
- [23:50]
A
Well, I mean, I think we, on the flip side of that, we can't underestimate the impact that the Chinese brands had. I mean, I'm aware of it in Europe and the UK and it is enormous and it's the fact that, you know, I've blabbed about it for years, but now people that aren't the least bit interested in cars or know nothing about it, I mean, they've done it, they've done one of them's Done it wrong, have you? Do you know much about those BDY cars? But the fact that that's leaked in this was someone who's not, that's not the slightest bit knowledgeable about carbon. You know, I always think sensible, why should they know? But you know, they fact they've heard that there's this car company that is coming that are selling cars here that are. People are buying and use, you know, starting to see them. Yesterday I saw three seals, you know, in a days driving on British motorways in. Well, I saw one in the middle of Wales. Yeah, that's a BYD seal. Oh my God. Like a normal person, not a journalist with, you know, with a camera stuck in the car. Just a person going somewhere. So yeah, I think they've arrived definitely here.
- [24:51]
B
Yeah, I mean I, and I wasn't around during the 80s when the Japanese automakers really came in in a big way. And in the 90s I didn't really notice when like the Korean car makers came in in a big way with history repeating itself and very similar. Yeah, hopefully what it does and what it did before was spur on the other automakers to actually innovate a bit more, you know, come up with better cars. You know, it's simple. If you want to compete then, you know, make a better car. It's really, really straightforward.
- [25:22]
A
But then you've been in the. Is it the. The P70 XPeng, the Xiaopeng P7?
- [25:27]
B
Yes.
- [25:27]
A
Is that.
- [25:28]
B
I'm technically at time of recording, I'm still under embargo. I can talk about it. I don't think I can talk about how it drives, but yeah, so Xpeng, you know, have had great sales success over the last year. Yeah, they had a bit of a down period about three years ago where things weren't going very well. They've changed their management, they've changed the design, they've changed their cars and now they bought out this P7 which looks like something out of the future. It's a fabulous looking car.
- [25:59]
A
Oh, nice. I've just found pictures of it.
- [26:00]
B
Yeah, very kind of iconic, kind of future looking. And this for me captures the Xpeng of five years ago. I was going to say the Xpeng of old, but it's not that old. They're only about 10 years old as a company but it really captures kind of a sophistication in the Chinese automakers which I think they have been lacking before. You know, this car has some pretty cool, neat features where you can use your voice to control it from outside the car. So you can get out the car, tell it to drive backwards into a parking space. You can tell the car to open your boot without pressing any buttons or anything. It can hear you from anywhere around the car. But it doesn't go over the top with karaoke microphones or silly gimmicks that people don't really use. And it feels much more like a European car or a car that definitely European consumers or Western consumers or consumers from outside of China are really going to like. And I think the looks are really make it stand out against the competition. So we shot the review, we're doing the editing right now. It will be coming out next Tuesday, but I don't know when this podcast is coming out. It's coming out very soon, basically.
- [27:11]
A
I think it's the day after. I think it's. This goes out next Monday, I think so.
- [27:14]
B
Yeah. It should be the day after this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [27:17]
A
But then very impressive because Jack's done, done an episode about the P7. But is that, Is this a different. Is this an updated version? Ah, right, okay, that explains. Yeah.
- [27:26]
B
So Jack. So well, my very first video for the fully charged show, as it was known before was the XPENG P7. The first one. That was my first ever video. Right back in 2020, I think it was. Right, yeah. So that Jack reviewed that one when it came over to the UK or the Netherlands and I said this is the up, like seriously, like upgraded.
- [27:48]
A
It does look noticeably different.
- [27:49]
B
Yeah, it's completely new. Completely new. So. And I like it because it shows a maturity in the Chinese brands that, yeah, they don't have to have wacky designs, they don't have to go crazy. They can actually just make a really well designed, well built, sophisticated car. And it should sell really well. We don't know the price yet, but it should sell really well.
- [28:17]
A
So I think we've got to be transparent about this, Elliot. We can't pretend because I. I've got a different shirt on. There's reasons for that. And also this is now the following day. Even though it all blends together without any seamlessly, seamlessly, seamlessly joined together. But we did have technical nightmares yesterday that have driven me bananas. And you very patient.
- [28:40]
B
So we've recorded a bit each day or a bit each session. This is our fourth session.
- [28:45]
A
So I quite like. Let's do it. We should have done it over 10 days where we do like five minutes a day, you know, just slowly build it up.
- [28:51]
B
Great idea for next time, just split over ten evenings.
- [28:56]
A
Anyway, let's. Because we got We've just finished talking about xpeng.
- [29:00]
B
Yes, we did.
- [29:01]
A
And all that sort of stuff. So the. Oh, let's do. Can we do the J. Is that all right?
- [29:06]
B
Yeah, yeah, of course.
- [29:07]
A
Jump into that because that is intriguing because it's coming to the uk. So it's a.
- [29:13]
B
Yeah, yeah, it's.
- [29:15]
A
Tell me about the J. Cuz I've not seen one and. Did we see one at the motor show? I can't. If we did, I can't remember it. Oh, it sort of feels like we should have done.
- [29:22]
B
Yeah, I think we should have done. We probably did in. In the blur of all the cars we did see.
- [29:26]
A
Yeah. I think it's forgivable for both of us to not quite recall exactly which one we saw.
- [29:31]
B
And the jq, it doesn't particularly stand out for its design. It's pretty, it's okay, but it's. Yeah. So it could have easily blended in. But you remember when we went to the ICAST stand and we saw that pink fluffy car, we stood next to it. Yes. So their parent company is Cherry. So JK is part of Cherry. So the company which produced. That produced the new E5. So this is. I think it's probably going to be one of the most affordable new EVs on the market in the UK when it arrives.
- [29:57]
A
Wow.
- [29:58]
B
It starts at £27,505. Oh God.
- [30:02]
A
But it looks kind of flash and big.
- [30:05]
B
Yeah, it looks a bit Range Rovery. A little bit.
- [30:08]
A
Look a little bit that.
- [30:09]
B
And that's, that's interesting because Cherry's joint venture partner here in China is jlis. You know, they, they build them here. So they've obviously learned a lot from that joint venture and now they're bringing a lot of that knowledge back to the UK with these kind of soft rotor EV SUVs and it, you know, it's fine. We've, we've tested the Omoda on the show. We've had it at the. I think at Farnborough or at London.
- [30:35]
A
Right.
- [30:36]
B
You know, it's a perfectly fine, it's a pretty normal car. It's proving to be quite popular. But it kind of makes you beg the question, so if JLR's partner can bring out an electric car in the UK but Range Rover still have delayed their new SUV. It kind of makes me scratch my head a little bit because. Yeah, you know that like you said, I think in our previous recording, you know, Jaguar really fast out the blocks, weren't they? They had the.
- [31:07]
A
I pace, I pace. Fantastic. Yeah.
- [31:10]
B
But since then it's kind of all gone a bit slow. And, you know, they really do need to bring out this Range Rover because a lot of these Chinese competitors are coming thick and fast with SUVs, electric SUVs, and at really affordable price points.
- [31:22]
A
Yeah, because, I mean, that's one of the things, you know, that I think that's that. That JLR really have got down. So. I've heard a lot of criticism about the electronics in Range Rovers, you know, and I've certainly not. I've only ever had Land Rovers, very basic old ones that had very little electronics in them. So I haven't had experience that problem firsthand. But one of the things that they excel in is drive trains. And that was what blew my brains out when I drove the I pace the first time in Spain, going up, I mean, stupidly steep slope on a rough mountain side, you know, and this thing just sailed up. It was like it wasn't there. And I know from having driven a Land Rover enough, a Land Rover probably would have got up that same slope, but it would have made so much noise. You'd have been thrashing the engine to bits, you'd have been going down the gears desperately. It would have done it, but it would have made this. The ipace just went. And every now and then you could see that a wheel slipped and it stopped spinning as soon as it. The other one took the strain. Incredible. Incredible road, you know, traction on a road car that was with road tires. And this is going up a slope you and I would not be able to get up without a stick or some. Someone pulling up. I mean, it was proper steep. All I could see was sky. And that was incredible that they managed to do that. Well, that feels like what an amazing step. Now start making all your Land Rovers.
- [32:42]
B
Exactly.
- [32:44]
A
Your Range Rovers like that.
- [32:45]
B
Exactly. And I think there's something to be learned from probably their joint venture partner, Cherry. The pace of bringing out cars to market in China is very quick. So, yeah, 18 months to two years and perhaps it's maybe a bit rough around the edges in places, or it's not 100% perfect, where I guess Range Rover can't really afford to get this wrong. So they're just testing and testing and testing to make sure they get it fully right. And then the market's there, people want to buy them and it will be exceedingly popular, which is good. I just. Just wish they'd hurry up a bit.
- [33:15]
A
I mean, I know they exist because I've seen them driving past our house. So they Range Jlr test out a lot of cars in the area. I'm not far away from their headquarters, about 30 miles away. But I've also seen them. I'm not allowed to talk about it. I may or may not have seen them at Millbrook which is a, a very secretive vehicle proving ground. I've recently driven another car and I may or may not have seen them pulling a very heavy trailer at unimaginable speed. So not like sensible. I'm just moving this stuff down the road on a trailer. I'm tearing along 20 miles an hour with the trailer bouncing around on the back anyway, so I might not have seen that and it may have been a different vehicle and I don't know because they're all camouflaged anyway. You're never really sure.
- [33:59]
B
Yeah, I mean I have to ask the question, is that really important test that. Driving at 150 miles an hour with a caravan on the back, is that, is that really, you know. Oh, we need six testing for this.
- [34:11]
A
You might be on the autobahn late to get to the camping ground. You need to really hammer it anyway. But the jcoo, that is, I mean is that because there's so many brands now and I'm forgiving myself for not remembering all of them. I used to be very anxious about it. There aren't other JK for sale in the uk. Is this the first one they've done?
- [34:35]
B
I don't actually know. I know that I think it's the second one. I know there's a. Well, I don't know. So I've tested a J here in China but it's a kind of more boxy, very fun looking car. I loved it and that that was meant to be the first JQ going overseas. So I think that jcu, which I can't remember the name of, has gone to other countries first.
- [34:56]
A
Right.
- [34:56]
B
Perhaps this is the first one that's actually going arriving in the uk. I can't quite remember. But Cherry are still the biggest exporter of Chinese cars amongst all the automakers here in Tabaskill.
- [35:09]
A
Yeah, because I just would naturally assume it was BYD just because they've been in the news so much and you hear so many things about the.
- [35:15]
B
Wow. I think Cherry. So Cherry exports something like 2.4 million cars per year. Now a lot of those are still petrol cars.
- [35:22]
A
Right.
- [35:23]
B
And they're to markets, you know, South America.
- [35:26]
A
Right.
- [35:27]
B
Africa, you know, these other countries. But obviously BYD are catching up very quickly. So Cherry have been doing this for a very long time. They know how To, Yeah. Generally sell overseas and pitch cars at the right price point so they know what they're doing. So I expect this JK E5 will be just as popular as some of their other kind of petrol cars. Yeah, yeah.
- [35:50]
A
I mean it's certainly check. I've heard, I know I'd heard of Cherry as a car brand long before byd, Xpeng, Xiaomi, all the other, all the other. Dozens of them.
- [36:01]
B
Yeah.
- [36:01]
A
You know, I'm certainly familiar with that name. I don't know that I actually knew or I certainly hadn't driven one of their cars. But no, I knew of it.
- [36:08]
B
Cherry's a very, very interesting case study. I mean I'd briefly tell you a bit of the history because they were a little bit naughty when they started. So back in the maybe 90s, the only way you could sell cars in China was to be run by a state owned company, so basically government run and only those companies could produce cars. So Cherry kind of set up and said no, no, we're just a part supplier, we just supply. Supply parts.
- [36:33]
A
Right.
- [36:34]
B
And they kind of sneakily imported in old. Say it, I can't remember say at Leons or something from the 90s from, from Spain as the kind of knock down kits and just said oh no, we're just importing parts. Then they built them all in China and started selling them and the government like what are you doing? We're just selling cars now. So they were actually the first kind of private company to sell cars.
- [36:56]
A
Wow.
- [36:57]
B
And all based on this like kind of knockdown kit, say at lay on which they imported in, in a kind of gray area now they've become, you know, the biggest exporter in China. So it's very, very interesting story.
- [37:09]
A
Yeah, yeah. God. I mean that transitionary period in Chinese history is absolutely fantastic. Fascinating how, how you adjust from complete state control of absolutely everything.
- [37:19]
B
Yes.
- [37:20]
A
To sort of, you know, I don't really, I mean it's not, they're not completely hands off but they're massively more hands off than they were, you know, 25, 30 years ago.
- [37:29]
B
Yeah. I mean there's still a hand hovering around there, you know, just in case. But it's kind of, it's also the hands also pushing them say come on.
- [37:37]
A
Come on, get on with it.
- [37:38]
B
Yeah, yeah. And eventually 90% of you will probably fail but will be left with a strong, really strong five or whatever.
- [37:46]
A
Yeah, yeah. But then the other, the other one, which I think what we've got to remember now is what we have spoken about in the last Few days.
- [37:53]
B
I can't.
- [37:54]
A
What? We haven't. But we haven't. The Xiaomi. The Xiaomi just fascinates me. So if we have talked about it, do you think we have? I don't think we have.
- [38:01]
B
I don't think. I don't think we have.
- [38:03]
A
Well, I don't think we have. When it's worked.
- [38:05]
B
No, I don't think we have. But if, if we're telling the story again then great, you can listen to it again.
- [38:10]
A
Yeah, we're just doubling, we're making it ultra clear. But the shout, that store, the really of the sham of Xiaomi cars fascinates me I guess because of Apple and also Dyson here, you know, the various attempts of companies with a lot of money.
- [38:23]
B
Yeah.
- [38:24]
A
To make a new electric car and they they've flopped out, you know. But yeah. So I mean, just quickly, Xiaomi is one of the biggest phone companies in the world. I mean they must be.
- [38:34]
B
That's right, yeah. So they, yeah, they're primarily a mobile phone manufacturer but they've expanded into lots of other things they do.
- [38:41]
A
Right.
- [38:41]
B
Loads of home appliances, kettles, fridges, the whole lot now. But they primarily do mobile phones. So they're a tech company. Yeah. And they decided that after Apple said that they're not, they were not going to build their ICAR or whatever it's going to be called.
- [38:55]
A
Yeah.
- [38:56]
B
Xiaomi said, oh, we'll do it. And it's been an absolutely rip roaring success. I don't think even we thought it would be that successful. So they've only bought out one car up until recently, this sedan, that SU7.
- [39:09]
A
Right.
- [39:09]
B
And then they had the SU7 Ultra which went to the Nurburgring and it be every car in the world and you know, all these records and stuff. And then they bought out their YU7 SUV in June or July this year.
- [39:23]
A
Right.
- [39:23]
B
And they sold something like a hundred thousand units in about an hour. So and if I went into a Xiaomi shop today and the factory's at full capacity, they're producing about 30,000 cars per month.
- [39:36]
A
Wow.
- [39:37]
B
I would have to wait a year before I could get my car. And this is a car that's just come out a month ago.
- [39:43]
A
Right.
- [39:45]
B
So it's been a huge success and it's really taking up the slack where I think Tesla's been lacking in innovation recently because there hasn't been much in the way of new from Tesla, not much in the way of innovation from Tesla. And so Xiaomi's really taken up that slack and said, well we're bringing like this tech focused car which connects to your home, your phone and everything else.
- [40:07]
A
Affordable.
- [40:07]
B
Price point, looks great, you know, and it's, it's built for the Chinese market and so people have been lapping it up and they, at the moment they're just like, well, we're just going to focus on the domestic market. We're not too concerned about overseas yet. Although I've heard rumors that Europe's probably next. So we might find out if they're going to expand into Europe next year. But yeah, they've been so successful and to have a waiting list that, that big is incredible.
- [40:34]
A
Yeah. But the technological achievement of being a phone manufacturer in a kettles and fridges.
- [40:39]
B
Yeah.
- [40:40]
A
And then you, I mean, I think you could say that like a student, a good student, engineering group could build a car that could go in a straight line really fast. Yeah, that's, that's kind of, you know, I can understand that achievement very clearly and I could probably be a minor member of that team. But to make a car go around the Nurburgring at the speed they have and it not fall to bits, skid off, you know, the road holding the, the capability of that car is as advanced as anything. You know, I mean it's beaten, I mean it's set a completely new record.
- [41:10]
B
Yeah. I think if there's any doubt that Chinese automakers were not producing good cars or they just produced, you know, white goods, I think is what Jeremy Clarkson once said. I think that's been completely smashed now and I think if there were any automaker executives who are still asleep saying, who are not taking it seriously. Well, that, that car smashing around the Nurburgring in seven point something minutes, I think actually woke them up because here's a really kind of halo car for a brand. It costs about £70,000. You can buy it on the street here.
- [41:45]
A
What, the one, the same one. I mean, the high performance one.
- [41:47]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's called the SU7 Ultra. It's about 70,000 miles. We drove it on the, on the. Yeah. A few weeks ago and it's 70 grand. So it's going after that BMW M5 market or the M3 market and people are like, oh, this is the car we really want. We can't quite afford it. So we have a slightly lower one. But this is, yeah, they're just taking a, a leaf out of the German automakers, you know. You know, is it. It's a win on Sunday, sell on Monday. It's exactly the same thing.
- [42:15]
A
Wow. Wow. Yeah.
- [42:18]
B
So, yeah, a Big shock to the system for everyone, including the other Chinese automakers.
- [42:22]
A
Sure. Yes. They must have been freaked out by that.
- [42:24]
B
Yeah.
- [42:24]
A
Because, I mean, I think that's the, that's one of the topics I really wanted to cover with you is the, is the maturing, I suppose, in the biggest, widest terms of the Chinese automotive industry, which, which, you know, in the last, say 10 years just spawned so many companies, so many different. Well, we saw it at the motor show. I mean, just staggering amounts of. The one I loved was, we walked, we both walked into a hall the size of Leicestershire and, and there were just dozens of cars and you said it was all one brand. They're just different things, you know, that it's getting your head around that is hard enough. But they were a staggering array of things. But is that one of the things that we know happened, particularly in America when they started making cards? So we're talking over 100 years ago, there were thousands of companies that no one's heard of now and that. And it ended up with what really two, I suppose in the end.
- [43:19]
B
Two and a half.
- [43:19]
A
Yeah.
- [43:20]
B
And yeah, I think that the Chinese, the market is about to go through that pain. I mean, they're feeling the pain already. There's been, there's been allegedly rumors of like layoffs at a lot of companies. Companies are not paying suppliers for either 90 days or six months, you know, late wages and everything else. So the car companies are feeling the pain. They're still hiding it at the moment. But, you know, if you've got lackluster sales now in China and you don't have the cash to go overseas, then your days are numbered. And I think we're going to see in the next six months some fairly big brands go under. Maybe they'll be rescued by a legacy automaker or maybe the other way around. You know, it's yet to be seen, but everyone is experiencing a lot of pain at the moment. So I, you know, I do worry. You know, we've seen that Geely, for example, they shut one of their new brands, their GDU brand, that was a self driving car, lots of investment, lots of money and they just closed it down. I think the start of this year. And that's Geely and they have a lot of brands, not all of them have been very successful.
- [44:28]
A
Yeah.
- [44:30]
B
So you have to wonder, what's the strategy going forward? You can't keep on investing, you can't keep on bringing out new models. I think we have actually seen a bit of a slowdown since the motor show. And the motor show didn't have anything outstanding like it did two years ago. There's lots of new cars, but there's nothing like amazing. This is groundbreaking. Apart from perhaps Xiaomi and I think we're starting to see that slowdown now. And to try and counteract that slowdown, they're expanding overseas in a huge way. So I know in Australia for example, they've seen New Zealand, they've seen the radar, that suv, that pickup brand just launched.
- [45:06]
A
Yes.
- [45:07]
B
Geely, SAIC have just brought out the IM brand into Australia, I think.
- [45:12]
A
Right.
- [45:14]
B
So they're all desperately scrabbling to go overseas. But you know, that's not a huge high sale market either.
- [45:19]
A
No, Australia is a small market. I mean by car sales standards, I mean. Yeah. Southeast asia is like 500 Australias, isn't it? I mean it's just sort of.
- [45:28]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [45:29]
A
I mean it's because, I mean it's partly, it's going to partly be sort of not necessarily global, but certainly a national economic shift in China's economy. I mean, I know it isn't grow. What the great thing is China economy has reduced the growth rate. You know, like it's a. Yeah, but it's 10 times more than any growth rate we've ever witnessed anywhere else on the planet. Yeah, gone down a bit. But I mean it has certainly diminished, hasn't it, in the last couple of years?
- [45:53]
B
Yeah, for sure. And no one really knows the true situation. But you know, seeing things on the ground here, you see that, you know, people are struggling, the economy has definitely slowed down. There's. People are less cautious about spending money. You know, automakers have had to lower their prices.
- [46:10]
A
Yeah.
- [46:12]
B
So there is, there's pain amongst the population with the economy. We don't really know what's the true picture, but things have been better in the past and we're definitely on a bit of a slowdown at the moment, I would say.
- [46:25]
A
Yeah. But it's on such a colossal scale. I mean the other thing I know we did mention was, you know, the installation of renewables.
- [46:33]
B
Yes.
- [46:34]
A
That doesn't feel like that slowed down. I mean that's an incredible, incredible changes and developments in that area. Well, I mean the one statistic I can remember is last year China installed more solar in one year than America has ever installed in its entire history. And America came up with the. I know we started making solar panels, you know, whatever it was 40, 50 years ago for NASA. And now. Yeah.
- [46:58]
B
And it's. And you think, well if that slows down a bit it's like, well, okay, we installed the same capacity as the whole of the European Union instead of all of America. And that's the slowdown. So.
- [47:07]
A
Yeah, yeah, it is. On a big scale. Yeah, no, it is. But then, okay, let's do. Because the, the other thing that I find really interesting is having had the privilege of interviewing Jim Farley from Ford a couple of times and him being incredibly honest and open about his reaction when he first went to China. I think 20, 21, wasn't it? I think it was very soon after.
- [47:30]
B
Yeah.
- [47:31]
A
And he just said they're, they're 10 years ahead of us in electric vehicles and all that. But their recent announcement that they're going to, you know, I mean, they're spending billions on that.
- [47:40]
B
Yes.
- [47:40]
A
But one of the little facts I found out, which you, I don't, I don't remember ever talking to you about, is there is an electric Ford Bronco.
- [47:48]
B
Okay.
- [47:49]
A
Have you not come across because. Okay, so there's Ford make a fully electric Ford Bronco. It's really popular. You can only buy it in China. So it's made in China.
- [47:58]
B
Oh, I probably should have known that.
- [48:00]
A
Well, I mean, I, as, when I read it, I went. I've got to ask Elliot about it because I, I am hoping the report I read was genuine, but I'll, I'll dig out.
- [48:08]
B
Okay. I mean, I've seen the Ford Bronco around. I, you know, I'm not a big SUV fan, but that doesn't look quite cool.
- [48:14]
A
Yeah, it does. Yeah, it's one of the cooler looking. If you're going to go there. That's a good.
- [48:19]
B
Yeah, exactly. You know, good on forward because, you know, they can either sit on their hands and, and just wait for inevitable decline and, you know.
- [48:31]
A
Yeah.
- [48:31]
B
And whatever happens. But they've really, you know, him being very open and especially with you on the podcast, I have to say that.
- [48:38]
A
It was extraordinary that clip of you.
- [48:40]
B
And Jim Farley went viral in China. Everyone speaks.
- [48:44]
A
Really? Oh, that's interesting. Right.
- [48:47]
B
Is that the Robert who spoke to Jim from Ford? I was like, yes, that Robert. That's how you're known now. So, you know, they do, they do have to be competitive. And Ford have always filled in that gap in the market, haven't they? They've always had things like Ford Fiesta, you know, good quality, affordable, normal car. And there hasn't really been much of that from many of the Chinese automakers or much in the way of legacy automakers, especially in terms of ev. So if Ford can tap into that Market.
- [49:18]
A
Yeah.
- [49:18]
B
And do a really good job. Then they do stand a good chance. I don't think they do particularly well in China. They never sold very well here.
- [49:26]
A
No, they're not a big European brand, American brand. Sorry, bigger pardon?
- [49:31]
B
No, they've never really sold here very well.
- [49:33]
A
Right. Australia. They have been present in the Chinese market.
- [49:37]
B
Yeah, yeah, they have. I think the biggest seller here is probably the Mustang, the new Mustang. So, yeah, I think fingers crossed they get it right. Because, you know, it's important that there's a U.S. automaker who is championing smaller, more affordable EVs.
- [49:53]
A
Yes. Yeah.
- [49:55]
B
There aren't many others, so hopefully it goes well for them. If they're learning from China, then they should do quite well.
- [50:02]
A
But that, I mean that whole. I don't, I really don't want to talk about the current, the current administration in America. But what is fascinating is we can talk about the Chinese market, Chinese car manufacturers, European market, what's happening with Chinese cars coming here and just not mention America at all because it's just not relevant to that, to a really huge global industry, which was never the case historically. I mean, in our lifetimes that's never been the case, been America number one.
- [50:34]
B
You know, but it's, it's literally shifted in the last year. Two years maybe.
- [50:41]
A
Yeah, it does feel like. Yes, it didn't just shift as soon as, you know, who got into it was already happening, wasn't it?
- [50:46]
B
Yeah. And you know, I think China's been quite smart. There's been a lot of kind of soft culture, I think, spreading overseas. So it's not just the cars and things, but you know, the popularity of China is growing overseas and you know, we're seeing more and more Chinese influence in, in what they're doing. I think you were talking about the BYD Dolphin Surf launch.
- [51:06]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [51:07]
B
On one of our three other recordings.
- [51:10]
A
Yeah.
- [51:10]
B
Have you spoken about this yet? I can't remember. And you mentioned that in the morning was for like the, the YouTubers, the more traditional auto journalists, and in the afternoon and evening was for the Tick Tockers and the Instagrammers.
- [51:23]
A
Yeah.
- [51:23]
B
And that's kind of a very Chinese way of spreading news about a car. And it's very smart. So these young influencers have millions of followers, they produce a 30 second video, get millions of views and have a quite young demographic. And that's what the new BYD is kind of aimed for. But it's these kind of Chinese marketing strategies that are coming into an overseas market and just shaking up everything. So the way we do things, I guess, has been based on kind of a Western way of doing things for quite a long time. But companies like BYD are changing that and changing that narrative. So it's. I didn't think it would happen that quickly.
- [52:01]
A
Right.
- [52:03]
B
You know, cars is one element of it, but it's, it's so pivotal and it's happening so quickly. And when we get to the end of the current US administration and perhaps things change, who knows?
- [52:18]
A
Yeah.
- [52:19]
B
And maybe the borders open up again and tariffs go away, you know, whatever happens. And then maybe they start getting Chinese EVs into the country. That will be worrying because I think Americans will probably think, hey, these cars are really, really good.
- [52:32]
A
Yeah.
- [52:33]
B
Why haven't we had these? Yeah. I think they might get a bit of a shock.
- [52:37]
A
And that's, I mean, I'm sure you've seen it, but many of the comments on episodes you do first are from Americans who are going, I can't watch anymore. It's breaking my heart. I know I'll never be able to get this in America. Better variants on that. I wish we could get that here. Oh my God, why can't we get that here? And I smuggle one in from Mexico. That was of my favorite comments.
- [52:59]
B
Yes. But it'd be interesting to see what happens in Canada. So we have the, we have the show in Canada coming up in.
- [53:05]
A
Yeah.
- [53:06]
B
Short, short amount of time. Right. And there's a lot of talk around them ditching this rule that America has as well, that not important Chinese cars. If they ditch that rule, then all of these automakers will flood that market and there'll be this kind of pincer movement around America.
- [53:25]
A
Yeah.
- [53:25]
B
They'll be surrounded by Chinese cars that they can't get.
- [53:28]
A
Yeah. Because, I mean, I know BYD are big in Mexico, aren't they? But are other. There are other Chinese makers that are selling almost all of them.
- [53:35]
B
So I think Great Wall Motors are there in a big way. Jac. They, you know, these big kind of state owned companies who we don't really know that much of in Europe, but they're there in Mexico, Brazil in a huge amount, in a huge way. I think they're selling, I can't remember the stat, but they're, they're now selling more BYD cars in Brazil than they are GM cars. And I think there's a GM factory in Brazil.
- [54:04]
A
Right.
- [54:04]
B
GM have been the best selling car there for 40 years or something.
- [54:07]
A
Right. Wow.
- [54:08]
B
But already within two years, BYD is the biggest seller.
- [54:11]
A
Wow.
- [54:11]
B
So, yeah, it's that much panic, you.
- [54:14]
A
Know, if you're the. The boss of. Well, I can't remember her name now. Mary. Mary.
- [54:20]
B
Mary Barra Barrett.
- [54:21]
A
Thank you. Yeah. You must notice that, you know, when you look at the spreadsheet on a Tuesday morning, how's things go? Oh, we're selling plenty. Oh.
- [54:31]
B
Right. Ignore that. How's our truck sales? Great. More V8s.
- [54:35]
A
Yes. How big a V8 can we get in it?
- [54:38]
B
Yes.
- [54:40]
A
But those shifts are extraordinary, aren't they, in there? And that's where, you know, I have no ability to predict what will happen because, I mean, the other country we've not even mentioned is. Is Korea. I mean, there's more Hyundai's and Kias on the roads here than anything else now. They're so popular and they're so good. I'm just about to have a drive, I hope, with. In the ionic 5n. Oh, so Dan's got one at the moment. So our CEO has got his driving one and he said, I can't. I get in it. And I have. I want to wear a face mask because I'm grinning so much.
- [55:19]
B
Because he wants to rob a bank and make a getaway.
- [55:22]
A
The what, sorry?
- [55:23]
B
Not because he wants to rob a bank and make a quick getaway.
- [55:26]
A
He doesn't want people to see him smiling. I don't know. I've not. I've not even been in one. I've never. I've seen them, but I've not been in one.
- [55:34]
B
But no. Yeah, yeah. So there's this. I mean, so with South Korea and I think even Vinfast, who've been.
- [55:43]
A
Yeah. How are they doing then? That's because I remember when we had them in the show in San Diego.
- [55:49]
B
The Netherlands as well, I think.
- [55:52]
A
So I'm not seeing any here.
- [55:54]
B
No, they. They had a big splash onto the market and then it went a bit quiet because I think there were a lot of quite negative reviews. But apparently their sales in Vietnam and Southeast Asia have an absolutely booming. They brought out this new super mini car and the sales of that have gone really, really well.
- [56:14]
A
Right.
- [56:15]
B
So I think with a more stable footing, they'll probably start expanding overseas again in a probably more sustainable way.
- [56:21]
A
Right.
- [56:22]
B
But, yeah, here we are in 2025 and some of the biggest companies are in China. Not unexpected. South Korea and Vietnam.
- [56:30]
A
And Vietnam.
- [56:32]
B
So, yeah, the next few years, the one word that everyone is using is consolidation.
- [56:37]
A
Yes.
- [56:39]
B
So I think there'll be European brands which will have to merge together. There's definitely Japanese brands which are going to merge together. But they were already talking about it. We're going to see Chinese brands buying those struggling overseas brands. There's been rumors that I think Maserati might have been sold to Chinese in the future.
- [56:59]
A
Wow.
- [57:00]
B
You know, loads of rumors.
- [57:01]
A
This is all. Yes.
- [57:02]
B
Who knows? Hearsay.
- [57:04]
A
Yeah.
- [57:04]
B
But it's, it's very, it's very bumpy and whoever's not selling enough cars and pretty much up for grabs. I think. So yeah. We'll, we'll see what happens in five years time we have the same conversation.
- [57:16]
A
Yeah.
- [57:17]
B
Who's still left?
- [57:18]
A
Yeah, but the one other, the one topic I did want to mention which I don't think we've mentioned in our previous 800-7-1-2 recordings but this one's. I.
- [57:29]
B
Don't say it. Don't say it. Don't say it. Don't say it.
- [57:33]
A
Don't say anything. But no, the, the, the plug in hybrid and battery electric sales in China I think is a really interesting little stat because the general perception of. Not of people outside the motor industry, just ordinary people I meet is we're definitely going to get a plug in. You'll be pleased, Robert. We're getting a plug in hybrid. Oh okay. We're making one step. We've got rid of the diesel, the 7 ton diesel SUV. We're getting a plug in hybrid. But you know like that's the transitionary thing that's definitely being pushed by the big oil industry lobbyists. They're going oh well we really. And we got, you know our, our 2030 ban on sales of that was completely stymied because the government of course flaky don't understand. It's a petrol car with a great big heavy battery. It has to haul around. That's my attitude to hybrids. But they're not selling that well in China then. They're selling but not.
- [58:27]
B
Yeah, they're selling. So I think Bev pure Bev Sales are up 40% year on year for right. In China and PHEVs are up 14% so they're growing.
- [58:39]
A
But just like BEV sales, I mean that's pretty big growth. 40% a year.
- [58:43]
B
Yeah, yeah. But we are seeing, what we're seeing is like these super hybrid re evs. So range extender electric vehicles. Basically an electric car with a full electric car battery plus a 2 liter petrol engine. So there's a car coming out soon with a 66 kilowatt hour battery which is huge. Yeah, two liter engine. I just think yes, you can go everywhere and do everything at every moment of every time. You know, no problems for you at all. But it's not a good use of resources, is it? And that petrol motor will eventually break down or go wrong and then you lumbered with this 66 kilowatt hour battery which technically you can still use. It's just. It's a desperate last gasp of an industry. I think, you know, with 40% growth of BVs year on year.
- [59:32]
A
Yeah.
- [59:32]
B
I think by 2030 we're going to have something like 70 or 80% market penetration of EVs in China. In China, yeah. That is millions of cars, hundreds of millions of EVs on the road.
- [59:46]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [59:48]
B
So that will have a huge global impact.
- [59:50]
A
Yeah. Well, it's also that, I mean I do remember driving the BMW i3 range extended thing and I thought it was great at the time. It's a little motorbike engine in the back.
- [60:00]
B
Yeah.
- [60:00]
A
And I have met for definitely three people who had those cars that bought them because of the motor and they've realized they didn't use the petrol engine. Then when one on the day that they wanted to, it wouldn't run because the petrol had gone stale and it all clogged it up. I mean it was fixable.
- [60:16]
B
Yeah.
- [60:16]
A
It wasn't like destroyed but. Because if you don't run a petrol engine every now and then, which he said he thought it was over a year, one guy that he'd never used it and he said, well, I'm driving up to Scotland, I've got the range extender. It wouldn't go.
- [60:29]
B
Oh no. Yeah, yeah.
- [60:32]
A
But I mean that. But that was at a stage where the battery pack in that car would have cost 25000 quid, you know, so you had to find a way of firm by today's standards, a tiny battery.
- [60:43]
B
Yeah.
- [60:44]
A
But now you don't mean. It's just.
- [60:45]
B
It's just we've moved on especially with sodium ion batteries. Right. I don't know. Spoken about this.
- [60:52]
A
I think we did mention it because of Catl, but I mean.
- [60:54]
B
Oh yes, we did. Yeah, we should.
- [60:56]
A
But we should say again $10 kilowatt hour. That's all I need to say. Yeah, we've done that.
- [61:00]
B
Yeah. Okay.
- [61:02]
A
Won't be awful if we go back and go. We forgot to mention that when we talked about Catl. But that one, I mean, what. Because there's. That was something else I read the other day where people are getting, you know, they're testing the latest electric cars for range, which I couldn't be bothered to do because it takes so long it does, but I mean there's someone who's done 700 miles. Miles, not kilometers. Miles in, on. In something I've heard of and I now cannot remember what it was. But it wasn't like a. Wasn't a lucid.
- [61:31]
B
No, it wasn't a lucid.
- [61:33]
A
What the hell.
- [61:34]
B
I can't remember what it was either.
- [61:36]
A
Yeah, but they did London to Inverness, I think they did, in one on one charge. So why do you want to stop to buy petrol?
- [61:44]
B
Exactly, exactly. Just top up your charge and you're done.
- [61:48]
A
Right, yeah.
- [61:48]
B
Especially with these super fast chargers where they add 1km every second. I mean.
- [61:52]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [61:53]
B
What more do you need?
- [61:54]
A
Because if you had to go on anything that will do that kind of up to.
- [61:58]
B
Yeah, yeah. I've been on a xpeng charger in a remote area in the south of China which had very fast charging. I think we added. I think it's 1 km every 2 seconds or something like that. It's exceptionally fast. So you literally plug it in and you do need to go to the toilet, get a drink of water and you're back and you've got 150km of extra range, maybe even more than that.
- [62:21]
A
Yeah.
- [62:21]
B
And it makes a huge difference. So you can just stop, you know, every couple of hours for a quick toilet break, plug it in for 10 minutes and you're done. Yeah. Game changing.
- [62:32]
A
Which you would do and you. That's the reality of it now is that you would stop for that long if you were in a.
- [62:39]
B
Yeah, of course.
- [62:40]
A
Because. Because, because human beings. I can't. I've asked my doctor, he can't extend the range of my bladder.
- [62:48]
B
Maybe you need a rage extending bladder.
- [62:51]
A
I think it's called a catheter. Yeah.
- [62:54]
B
Plug in.
- [62:57]
A
Oh, we should stop. That's wrong. We've gone over the limit. I'm not going to be able to forget that I've got a plug in bladder.
- [63:11]
B
Extends my range by at least another 100km.
- [63:14]
A
That's the only reason I stop. I don't stop for the car. I mean I've done that now. Earlier this year when we drove to Italy. I never had to. I never had to. Had to stop for the car, had to stop for me.
- [63:24]
B
Yeah.
- [63:25]
A
And there was a charger there. So we'll charge it while we're doing it and having a coffee, you know, and having a break. You need to get out the car and have a walk.
- [63:30]
B
Of course. Yeah. Fresh air and. Yeah. Stretch your legs.
- [63:33]
A
Oh, God. I'm just checking my printed out paper list which I know you were very critical of.
- [63:38]
B
Yes, I was.
- [63:40]
A
To make sure we haven't forgotten anything. But I think we have covered.
- [63:42]
B
I think we have three times Rivian.
- [63:46]
A
Yeah, that's the only other one we have talked about, but we have. Yeah.
- [63:50]
B
I think that. I mean, there's, again, rumors swirling at the moment. They're under a lot of pressure at the moment and struggling a little bit, which seems strange because they got an amazing product. But, yeah, tariffs have hobbled them.
- [64:02]
A
Right.
- [64:02]
B
And I think it's harder for them to sell in. At one point, they want to sell in China, I think wanted to sell in the UK and Europe and they're going to bring out that smaller. Is it the R3?
- [64:14]
A
Perfect. Oh, my God. Yeah. As soon as I saw that, I.
- [64:16]
B
Thought, so hopefully, hopefully nothing happens to them. Hopefully they survive. They're very kind of different automaker and I hope. Yeah, I hope they have a good success. But they, you know, again, these smaller automakers just simply can't survive in this cutthroat world of, you know.
- [64:32]
A
Yeah.
- [64:33]
B
Price discounts and lobbying and tariffs and everything else.
- [64:37]
A
So, yeah, it's very tough. No, it's a real. I written. I'm in the same. Yes, I. I endorse that sentiment because I really want them to succeed. I mean, they are. Yeah. Just because of the whole ethos behind the company is kind of.
- [64:52]
B
Exactly. Good.
- [64:53]
A
Anyway, look, Elliot, you have been a hero, a podcasting hero. It's now three in the morning in China and you've got three gorgeous babies to look after and you've done incredibly well. Thank you so much for persevering. No, we've got this far and it hasn't screwed up, so. Oh, my God, we're lucky.
- [65:11]
B
Don't say it. Hopefully this is all worked and we don't have to record this again.
- [65:14]
A
Yes. Oh, no, I can't do it again. No, that's. That's it. If this doesn't work, forget it. I'll never speak to you again.
- [65:20]
B
No, that's it. In the relationship.
- [65:22]
A
It's all over. Yeah. Brilliant to talk to you. Can't wait to see you again. Lots of love to the family and we'll see you soon.
- [65:28]
B
Thank you.
- [65:33]
A
Really hope you enjoyed that. It was just brilliant to catch up with with Elliot, as always. We'll definitely have him on the podcast again soon. Maybe we can have it live when he comes to the UK next time. Does visit family over here quite recently regularly. I can't wait to meet his two new gorgeous twin babies. But that's it. Please do tell your friends about the Everything Electric show, the Everything Electric podcast, Everything Electric Tech, Everything Electric Cars. And please subscribe yourself if you haven't done already. And that's it. As always, if you have been thank you for watching. Now visit Electric Vehicles Expert where you can follow Everything Electric and keep current with Clean Technica, the Driven Electrek and many more.