Detroit's Dunne, China's won? How it happened & is it 'unstoppable'?

Summary

Everything Electric Podcast

Episode: Detroit's Dunne, China's won? How it happened & is it 'unstoppable'?
Host: Robert Llewellyn
Guest: Michael Dunne (Dunne Insights)
Release Date: July 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

Robert Llewellyn sits down with automotive expert Michael Dunne—Detroit native, fluent Mandarin speaker, and founder of Dunne Insights—to dissect the extraordinary rise of China’s automotive industry. Together, they chart China’s ascent from industrial backwater to global leader in electric vehicles (EVs), renewables, and automotive exports. They explore what this means for legacy Western automakers, local economies, and the world’s energy transition. The episode is rich in firsthand stories, candid insights, and a dash of trademark wit.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Michael Dunne’s Background and First Impressions of China

• Detroit Roots & Family Ties ([03:32])
  • Son of legendary car "spy" Jim Dunne—grew up photographing prototype vehicles for the American industry.
• Move to China in 1986 ([03:42])
  • First exposure: Shanghai 760—a primitive, party-official-only car based on a 1955 Mercedes, illustrating China’s early reliance on foreign automotive DNA.
• "Go Where Others Don’t" Ethos ([05:49])
  • Influenced by his father's advice to avoid the beaten path, leading him to China at a time when few Americans even visited.

Transformation of China’s Auto Industry

• Early Foreign Domination ([10:59])
  • Western brands (Volvo, GM, Mercedes) initially dominated sales and profits in China, with one GM president claiming, “We’re making more money than God.” ([11:15], Michael Dunne)
• Shift to Local Power ([12:49])
  • The disruption post-2020: Electric vehicle sales skyrocket from 6% to 50% of all new cars in China; Western brands’ factories face overcapacity, prompting massive exports.
  • "All those foreign automakers...there's no demand for those cars. We start shipping them overseas...from 1 million in 2020 to like 12 million this year." ([12:49], Michael Dunne)

Evolution of Chinese Car Brands

• From Derided to Desired ([10:13]–[10:38])
  • BYD and other local brands were mocked circa 2008—now leading innovation and value, with MG (Chinese-owned) gaining cachet in the UK and beyond.
• Design and Talent Importation ([20:05]–[21:11])
  • China’s auto firms recruit top global designers and engineers, especially from Europe; transition from “Receive and Duplicate” (copying) to true innovation.
  • "There's at least 2,000 foreign automotive designers now working in China...they innovate on top." ([20:05], Michael Dunne)

BYD, Tesla, and the Scale of China

• Unmatched Scale ([21:29]–[22:11])
  • BYD’s employee base dwarfs Western firms: 100,000 in R&D, ~1 million total, aiming for world #1 by 2030.
  • Cutting-edge infrastructure: BYD’s 1.5MW "flash charging"—full charge in 5 minutes ([22:22]), a feat as yet unmatched in the West.
• Role of Government Policy ([22:53]–[24:44])
  • "Made in China 2025" initiative directed investment and incentives—massive state backing for batteries, EVs, supply chains, and infrastructure.

Why Did the Tide Turn?

• Tesla's Arrival as the Catalyst ([24:44])
  • Entrée of Tesla (2020) catalyzed a consumer perception shift—software-first electric vehicles become aspirational.
  • "Something clicked right around when Tesla came in and there's been no looking back." ([24:44], Michael Dunne)
• Foreign Automakers Left Behind ([24:44]–[27:40])
  • Western automakers misread the pace and scale of change, only realizing around 2023 that the game had fundamentally shifted.
  • “It’s over for foreign brands in China.” ([27:36], Michael Dunne, quoting Mercedes’ ex-CEO)

Export Wave and Global Consequences

• Explosive Export Growth ([12:49], [14:14])
  • Rapid pivot: When Chinese domestic demand for combustion vehicles collapsed, exports filled the gap; gasoline vehicles now sent worldwide.
• Insight into the UK and Europe ([13:34]–[16:34])
  • Chinese-branded cars flood the UK and EU markets, often sold under legacy names (e.g., MG).

The Infrastructure and Consumer Landscape

• Charging Infrastructure ([14:44]–[16:34])
  • UK EV sales surpass petrol—charging infrastructure now “everywhere,” often unnoticed until owned ([15:22]).
  • Community acceptance: EV-only charging stations replacing petrol stations are more pleasant for residents.

The Subsidy and Supply Chain Puzzle

• State Support Defined ([45:12]–[46:33])
  • Subsidies go beyond cash incentives—zero-interest loans, free land, discounted power, direct state-bank support keep the industry competitive on the global stage.
  • “That’s their playbook and it’s working for them. It presents us with a real dilemma in the West.” ([46:34], Michael Dunne)
• China’s Battery Monopoly ([32:03]–[35:43])
  • Through strategic acquisition and policy (e.g., requirement to transfer assets/technology for market access), China locked up supply chains for battery materials and rare earths.

Challenges for the West

• Innovation vs. Scale ([41:47], [53:09])
  • Western auto industries struggle to compete on price/scale, but pockets of innovation (Tesla, Rivian, Waymo) may offer hope.
• Societal Impact ([47:13]–[49:33])
  • Looming risk of deindustrialization—echoes of Britain’s manufacturing decline as jobs and know-how are offshored.

The Unfinished Story

• Industry Consolidation? ([39:47]–[43:46])
  • Despite inefficiency, over 250 automakers still operate in China—government support at all levels sustains even lossmakers.
  • “Eventually, consolidation will happen…but not for a long while yet.” ([43:16], Michael Dunne)
• Outside Automotive: Wider Competition ([53:09], [54:41])
  • Chinese manufacturing advantage now expanding into buses, trucks, and global battery supply–the auto export surge may be just a taste of future geopolitical and economic disruption.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We're making more money than God.” ([11:15], Michael Dunne on GM’s China business 2000s)
• “Suddenly a lightning bolt came, a meteor hit, and things have completely transformed.” ([11:45], Michael Dunne on market disruption)
• “Byd have 100,000 employees in their R&D department. They have a million employees.” ([21:29], Robert Llewellyn)
• “By 2030 they expect to be number one in the world.” ([22:02], Michael Dunne on BYD)
• “Chinese R&D: Receive and duplicate.” ([20:05], Michael Dunne on the old days of Chinese car development)
• “It’s a little bit debilitating, a lot debilitating for incumbent automakers and jobs in industry and especially in Europe.” ([27:40], Michael Dunne, on global consequences)
• “The Chinese are laughing at us going, ‘Oh, you guys really? You're going to compete with a $7,500 tax credit? No, they're all in.” ([46:13], Michael Dunne)
• “From a consumer perspective, it's a beautiful thing. I'm getting a better car at a lower cost. From a social perspective, it is dangerous.” ([47:53], Michael Dunne)

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Important Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:32] – Michael Dunne’s Detroit/China Background
• [10:13] – Perception of Early Chinese Cars
• [12:49] – China's Market Disruption & Export Shock
• [21:29] – BYD Scale vs. Tesla Comparison
• [22:53] – “Made in China 2025” & Policy Blueprint
• [24:44] – Tesla’s Arrival and Market Transformation
• [27:36] – Realization by Western Executives: "It's over”
• [39:47] – The Frenetic Churn: 250+ Automakers
• [45:12] – What Chinese Subsidies Really Mean
• [54:41] – Trucks, Buses, and Beyond: The Next Wave

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Final Reflections & Takeaways

Both host and guest agree: We are witnessing just the beginning of China’s global automotive surge. The Western response is uncertain—can innovation outpace scale? Is deindustrialization inevitable, or can the West marshal new strategies to compete? And as mobility, software, and energy technology converge, who gets to own the future?

Closing Thoughts

“From a consumer perspective, it’s a beautiful thing…From a social perspective, it is dangerous. It’s like Warren Buffett used to say, the farmer who keeps selling his land…eventually the land is gone. Now what?” ([47:53], Michael Dunne)

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For Further Exploration

• Michael Dunne is preparing a new book, Cloud Wars, covering the historical sweep of China’s industrial strategy ([33:10]).
• If you haven’t seen one yet, MW4 (MG4) and other Chinese EV models are likely coming soon to your local roads.

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Engage with the full episode for more wit, banter, and industry insight!

Transcript

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[Robert Llewellyn]

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Everything Electric podcast. We are very much focused in this episode on China. I just had the most incredible conversation with a man called Michael Dunn. He runs kind of an organization called Dunn Insights. He has a very, very long history of interaction with China. He speaks Chinese, he's American. He was brought up in Detroit in the middle of the car making culture of the USA and you know, around about my age, a bit young, bit younger than me. He's a young man and just has this incredible knowledge of the history of how China got to the position it's in today and its incredible market dominance in terms of electric vehicles and renewables and a lot of other stuff, electronics in general. Really interesting conversation. Amazing man, very entertaining. I know you're going to enjoy it. Please do subscribe to this channel because we get the most amazing people on here and it's a real privilege to talk to them. Tell your mates about it, you know that all that gubbins. And also we've got, if you're in the uk, we've got a show coming up in September where I've just found out there's a couple of new Chinese vehicles being really revealed there, launched there. You won't have seen them anywhere else. We haven't seen them, so, you know, very exciting. And then we're also in Sydney where the same vehicles will be on display along with thousands of others. The Sydney show is going to be huge. So that's. I won't go on about that. That's all. Please welcome onto the Everything Electric Podcast Michael Dunn from Dunn insights. Our three free YouTube channels on EVs and clean energy tech are funded by our fun Packed test drive tastic events in the UK and Australia. Next up, everything electric Greater London and then Sydney. All events include a B2B EV day and commercial vehicles too. So Michael, thank you. This is. I won't bore our audience with the battles we've been through to get here, but it's so good to see you. I'm really glad you've done this. I mean what would be good is to explain to people a bit of your background and how you got to where you are now. I think people would be interested to know and where you are now and all the rest of it.

[Michael Dunn]

Tremendous. Thank you first off for having me. It's, I've been looking forward to this conversation for weeks now and we did have some that we had to, we had to connect with the technology gods to make this happen. So I'm just grateful to be with you today. Briefly, background credentials. Street cred. Grew up in Detroit, Son of Jim Dunn, legendary car spy. Used to take, accompany him to take photos of next generation cars before they got out into the public. So I grew up around cars. Straight out of school, went to China 1986, 1986, as a graduate student. The very first car I saw was this powder blue model called the Shanghai 760. And when I looked at it, I had said, what is that? It doesn't look like what I expected. It looked like a German car. And sure as hell it was based on a 1955 Mercedes that had been transplanted to the Soviet Union, retransplanted to China. So that, that's my first impression. A big blue lumbering bench seats, huge steering wheel, no seat belts, radio. It was, that was one of two cars that China was making at the time and they only made a few thousand and only the party officials got their hands on them. So that was First Impressions, 1986.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But I've got to go back to that. I mean my, bizarrely, my wife went to China in 1986, but she was. Yeah, yeah, but. And she was with her, she was a circus performer. This is, this, this is so off topic. But just briefly.

[Michael Dunn]

Oh my God.

[Robert Llewellyn]

She, she went and studied with the Nanjing Acrobatic Company and she learned to do amazing circus tricks that no other, you know, European person of European descent has ever done before or since. She's the only woman, I'll just quickly inform our audience of this. The only Caucasian woman in the world who can balance three eggs on a chopstick on her nose. She can't do it anymore. I saw her do it. She could do it.

[Michael Dunn]

Three eggs.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And they're rear legs. They're rear legs and there's no glue involved. I don't know how she does it. There is a trick, but it looks amazing anyway. We don't need to go there. But that. But what I'm intrigued is what. What drew you to go to China then? Because it was a very different country.

[Michael Dunn]

It really was very. To imagine, I grew up in Detroit. Detroit. Through all my colleagues, all my classmates. They'd work for Ford or GM or Chrysler. And my dad was a little bit of a, you know, he'd always encourage Robert Frost, the Road Not Taken. Go find out where everyone's not going, and take that one. So.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right.

[Michael Dunn]

I studied some Chinese at University of Michigan, and straight out of school, bought a ticket and landed myself in China. And naturally they. When I got there, when I got to China, they said, what are you doing here? Are you doing here? Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Wow.

[Michael Dunn]

That was. That was ancient history. We can go back. Just bringing us up to date and where we are today, because really, there's serious action happening in the world and arguably none bigger than what's happening where you are. The uk.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Michael Dunn]

So today I run a company called Dunn Insights. We advise investors on the future of cars, in particular, what China's trying to do with the global auto industry. And, yeah, the transformation is just. There's no words for it. Right. The things that are coming out of China these days.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. Now, I mean, the skit. Because I was. I went for the first time I visited Shanghai last year.

[Michael Dunn]

You were. And okay.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, yeah. And that's my first visit ever. And I just, you know, basically my. My face looked like this for 90% of the time.

[Michael Dunn]

All right, so take us back to that moment. You're stepping off the plane, you're getting into the airport terminal. What were your very first impressions? What did you see in film?

[Robert Llewellyn]

I mean, super modern, super clean, super efficient. Everyone that I interacted with, every single Chinese person I interacted with, was incredibly courteous, kind, spoke English. I mean, I'm sure, you know, I spoke to a tiny percentage of the population of China, but I never had one bit of, you know, I don't know what. Grit in the gears. It was always very, very smooth. I had the advantages.

[Michael Dunn]

There's good energy, amazing energy. Motivated. Yeah. Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But I also had the benefit of Elliot, who I. I think you. You know Elliot, don't you?

[Michael Dunn]

But.

[Robert Llewellyn]

So he'd lived there for a long time. So I was with someone who's an English guy who lived there a long Time and understood how it all worked. I think if I'd been on my own, it would have been just. I'd just be stumbling around. So he got me, like, all the kind of phone stuff and the, you know, your past to get on trains and all that kind of thing. You know, I would. I would have found that probably quite challenging on my own.

[Michael Dunn]

But that's true. That's true. You get into those trains and it's all Chinese and it's moving and.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But it's incredible. I mean, all that stuff.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And then the hotel we stayed in, you know, I can't even remember getting on. It all happened. Got off the plane, got to the hotel and then I just went out for a little walk on the street outside the hotel. You know, the first day I was there and it was really quiet and I could hear birdsong and I could breathe air and there were tens of thousands of scooters going past me on a scooter and hundreds of thousands of cars and trucks and buses and it was so peaceful and quiet. You go, that is, you know, every now and then. Well, the one I really remember, that was the following day, I was walking along, talking to Elliot and I heard a Ferrari and I went, oh. And I could hear this engine. We sort of looked around.

[Michael Dunn]

There was a red Ferrari. There's a Ferrari. Yeah. I'm guessing you were in Shanghai.

[Robert Llewellyn]

We were in Shanghai, yeah.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah. And all the cars are primo, right?

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes, yeah.

[Michael Dunn]

Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, Lamborghini. And then you've got the Chinese electrics, which are so impressive in their own. Right, yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Anyway, yeah, so that was. It was amazing. So, I mean, what I'm fascinated by then is my experience of Chinese cars is much, much shorter than yours. But it would have been about 17 or 18 years ago that I was at the Geneva Motor show, when there still were things like big motor shows, and there was a BYD stand there. Yes. That in comparison with Volvo, Audi, Mercedes, Ford, you know, all these companies have big, big, you know, flashy things with glossy cars. And there was in this. There was this three BYD taxi. Things that looked, you know, my esthetic sense of motor vehicles is pretty limited, but I could tell these looked a bit weird.

[Michael Dunn]

They're just not now, not attractive. And you ask a Chinese consumer, and at that time, they wanted nothing to do with byd.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right.

[Michael Dunn]

At my office in China, the joke would be, oh, engineer Gong Lee Gong, he just. He had to buy BYD because he didn't get his bonus this year. Like, you bought a BYD when you couldn't find. You couldn't find anything else, you couldn't afford something better. That was what it was at the time.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right. But that turnaround then. So that. The other key moment I do remember is I was at the Volvo factory in Gotterberg in Sweden, and there were all these Volvos, big SUV Volvos, coming off the production line with gold wheels, gold door handles, sort of salmon pink or. Or shrimp pink color, you know, just

[Michael Dunn]

like, where are these cars? Like that?

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. Where are they going? Oh, they're all going to China.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah. Which was.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But that was. That was probably 20 years ago. And then you think, well, that market, that was huge for European brands. I've got a sneaking suggestion that's changed a bit.

[Michael Dunn]

You're. You're absolutely right. They used to say. I used to ask, you know, check in with the president of General Motors, which in itself had a huge market there. And I used to say, how's the business? And you say, we're making more money than God. It was for two decades, Robert. It was growth and profits, growth and profits, automatic, enormously profitable. Whatever they put out to the market sold, and they sold well. And they couldn't build factories fast enough. And that would seem to be like, well, Chinese consumers love foreign products. We're building foreign products. We're making a lot of money. Let's do this forever. Let's do this forever. And as we know, when somebody wrote the song All Good Things Must End, and it's ended very abruptly, Robert. Suddenly a lightning bolt came, a meteor hit, and things have completely transformed. And people talk about disruption. I don't think the word disruption begins to describe what we're experiencing and witnessing in China since, let's just say since 2020, the last five years, I think, of two major earthquakes. One was. And these will be familiar to you and to your audience. But the first one was in the world's largest market, China Electrics went from about 6% of total sales to last year, 50%. Like, it's. I don't know. I don't know. Imagine if, like, Guinness, no one's buying Guinness in the UK except for Ireland, of course, but no one's buying Guinness. And all of a sudden, half the people are drinking Guinness five years later.

[Robert Llewellyn]

What. What.

[Michael Dunn]

What is that about? And then the second earthquake is related to the first one, is that all those foreign automakers had these big, beautiful factories all over the country that. That suddenly there's no demand for those cars. And so the foreign automakers and their Chinese partners said we need to do something with these factories and the workers in the factories. What do we. Oh, we start shipping them overseas and we've seen Exports go from 1 million in 2020 to. It's on track to be like 12 million this year. One to 12 million in five years. Just phenomenal changes. And I know you're seeing the consequences of that in the UK with. Tell me what you're seeing on the streets these days, the Chinese cars pouring in.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I mean, it is that. I think it's. This is in a way why I wanted to talk to you is to kind of explore that because I think the British, the general public in the UK are now aware that there is such a thing. You know, the general, like, everyone understands that, like byd, they will have heard of it, they know it's Chinese. They might not know anyone who's got one, they might never have seen one. But that information has gone into the, to the general consensus. And I mean it is that everywhere you look, everywhere you go, you see Chinese built cars. They're not all electric. I mean, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of them makes a, you know, a motor and jk, I think are the ones that have done it. Yeah, I just see them everywhere.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Oh my God, they're just so common.

[Michael Dunn]

Yes. In another country, Robert, they might say cherry. That's cherry. Jaycob.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Cherry.

[Michael Dunn]

Exports are, as you say, not electric, they're gasoline. In another market they may say, oh, we had our time. Chinese people don't want, elect, don't want gasoline powered vehicles anymore. Our business is done. But the Chinese pivoted very quickly and said, our business in China is done, but guess what, we're going to start shipping these worldwide. And it's just been phenomenal, the traction because.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, I mean, that is interesting because the one lot of sales figures I've seen very recently for the UK is we've just overtaken. So sales of electric cars have just overtaken pure petrol cars. Pure petrol cars going down. I mean, diesel, forget it, no one's buying diesel. But electric cars, it's literally they've just passed in the UK already in the uk. But the. But what is interesting is still the most common sales are hybrids, plug in hybrids and hybrids. But they've completely flatlined. They're not going up. Electric sales going up by an extraordinary amount.

[Michael Dunn]

Is the infrastructure in place for that or. It doesn't really matter. People just like the product.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I mean, they like the product, but also the infrastructure is there. Once, you know, I've spoke to someone recently who's recently got an electric car and thought there was nowhere to charge and now everywhere they go, all they see is places to charge because you don't. If you're not using it, you don't notice it, you don't.

[Michael Dunn]

It's not visible and there is a difference here in the States, where I live, the, the gas stations are very visible, very visible. And the electric charging centers are there

[Robert Llewellyn]

but they're around the back usually.

[Michael Dunn]

Yes, yes. Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

We need kind of. I mean there are a few examples in the UK of. There was one very sort of well known one in the middle of London which used to be a gas station, as you'd call it. A petrol station we call it. Yeah. And that was.

[Michael Dunn]

I forgot where I was

[Robert Llewellyn]

but that was completely gutted and rebuilt and it's now electric vehicle charging station corner and it's very urban. It's right in the middle of London in a very. And it was a very small gas station. It would have been. But the two things I've learned about that one, it's in use all the time. It's got phenomenal use levels. It's run by, I'm going to say the wrong one. It's either Shell or bp, they still run it. It's got a nice shop, it's got

[Michael Dunn]

toilets, it's got to be the new, new thing.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But the other one is the local residents have. There's been some research with all the local residents and they all say it's so much nicer here since it's not a petrol station because you could, you know, no matter how well you run it, you smell it. You know, if you live next door, which people do literally like overlooking it then so. But anyway, that's.

[Michael Dunn]

Tell me something. So you know, normally it. When the Koreans came in or the Japanese before them.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Michael Dunn]

Early buyers, you might have some early movers but there'd be a question mark hangover.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Oh yeah.

[Michael Dunn]

The case of Chinese brands. It doesn't seem to be that. Is that accurate or what's going on?

[Robert Llewellyn]

If it was, it was very short lived. It was a blip. Whereas I do, I can remember as a child my dad making fun of Japanese cars that'll fall to bits in two weeks. You know that was his joke. He was driving a Ford, a British made Ford which were quite renowned for falling apart in two weeks. But you know, they always made fun of, you know, Japanese was rubbish. It wasn't. They weren't reliable. And then it was Korean, it was their awful. You Know all that, that's happened before and I'm sure it did happen with Chinese cars. I mean, the thing that we still see comments on now are people saying, I wouldn't buy Chinese, I don't want to support the ccp, you know, whatever, and, and that's still there. But they've also typed that on a Chinese built keyboard or on a Chinese made phone.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah, that's true.

[Robert Llewellyn]

One doesn't really like to point out,

[Michael Dunn]

do people in the uk, are they aware that mg, the MG brand, is Chinese owned?

[Robert Llewellyn]

For the most, Yeah, I think so. Hard to know. I think they probably do. But that brand has. I have an MG4. I'm about to drive it across the country now. It's such a great little car.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And, yeah, great value.

[T-Mobile Legal Disclaimer]

Yeah.

[Michael Dunn]

With. With GM and with Volkswagen over the years. They do a good job.

[Robert Llewellyn]

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[Michael Dunn]

Or of Jaguar, definitely.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, that had been a big thing, presumably of European and

[Michael Dunn]

American China does very smart recruits. Attracts recruits. Some of the best, talented, most talented designers. I think there's at least 2,000 foreign automotive designers now working in China. So up and down, you can't find a Chinese company without a foreign designer. And many of them come from the uk, Germany, Italy and so that's real. And the second thing is we used to have an expression called what is Chinese R and D? R and D stood for this is 15 years ago. Receive and duplicate. So they were always very good at copying. But now what's happening is they go receive, duplicate and then build on top. They innovate on top of that. They don't just copy anymore, they've really iterate and innovate on top of what they learn. So they're a force to be reckoned with. Like in my mind, people ask me, oh, they like the Japanese and Koreans before that. I think we're at a completely different magnitude. Yes, yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes. I mean, that was. Well, that was one of the, the facts I learned last year was, you know, I'd been, I'd, you know, been in a discussion on a, at a, you know, an event where someone mentioned that Tesla had a hundred thousand employees around the world. And I was going, that is amazing.

[Michael Dunn]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Considering I first met that company, you know, 20 years ago when there were seven employees or 10. You know, it's very small. But then you find out that when I was in China that BYD have 100,000 employees in their R&D department. They have a million employees. Incredible how that. And that. I mean, if you think back then to, you know, even Toyota's sort of heyday in the 80s and 90s or globally, did they have a million employees? I'm not sure they did. Maybe did, but they were.

[Michael Dunn]

I don't think.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I don't think they did.

[Michael Dunn]

And BYD makes no secret of the fact that by 20, 30. What's that, how many years away? Three, three and a half years, they expect to be number one in the world.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. I can't see how they won't be. I mean, it just. And I mean, we've recently had the Denza and the 1.5 megawatt charging, the flash charging introduced here. Yes. Just.

[Michael Dunn]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And that, you know, that bit of information, it doesn't matter whether anybody uses it or genuinely understands what it is or what goes in, is you can charge an electric car in five minutes.

[Michael Dunn]

That's all. That's all we need to know.

[Robert Llewellyn]

That's all. That's the headline. It doesn't matter whether, you know, whether there's the infrastructure to do it or we generate the electricity. Forget that, but that is it. But no one else, no one in Europe, no one in America has done that. You know, they, that is, that is not replicate and duplicate, whatever that is. Innovation.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah, innovation. They're, they're world, world class. Now, a little bit of backstory, because I was living in China at the time, and this may all be familiar to you, but as I said, the foreign automakers were just having their cake and eating it too. In China, for the longest time, Xi Jinping comes to power. 2012, 2014, August. He gathers with his lieutenants in an off site called Beidaihe, up near North Korea, across from North Korea. And they put together this blueprint now known as made in China 2025. And it's this document that says by 2025 China has aspirations to lead in next generation technologies from autonomous vehicles to electrics to batteries. And atop the list were these, let's make it go in electrics and batteries. And they put in place extremely generous investments in infrastructure, in batteries, in subsidies for manufacturers, in rebates to consumers. And here's where it gets interesting. Robert From 2014-2015-2016-2017, it's looking a lot like a top down government funded expedition that's not really going anywhere because for most of the decade Chinese consumers were still saying electric. I'm not sure, Chinese electric.

[Robert Llewellyn]

No, no, no.

[Michael Dunn]

The designs aren't that great. The range isn't terrific. I don't know about, I heard about some fires, I don't know about charging. So through the 20 teens, 2000 and tens. Yeah, there was a lot of wheel spin. There wasn't great immediate uptake by Chinese consumers. And it was only after Tesla entered in 2020 that suddenly consumers views of electrics seemed to be like transformed overnight.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right.

[Michael Dunn]

And they, in, in my mind what happened wasn't so much that they fell in love with an electric powertrain overnight, but they saw, oh, this is a totally new type of vehicle, software defined vehicle with over the air updates, a big screen. And as we know the car culture as we know it in the west really never sunk in, got traction in China. It wasn't about performance and handling and speed and cornering. It was all about the experience inside the car. So Tesla hit all of the right sort of chords with the Chinese consumer and, and then the Chinese consumers started looking at and go oh by the way, BYD designs have gotten a lot better. And there's these new companies called Nio and Xpeng and Li Auto. They're oh, look at their designs. So we saw this sort of something clicked right around when Tesla came in and there's been no looking back. It just took off. And if, if there's any defense for global automakers, they were lulled into a sense of complacency. But that complacency in a sense was well founded because until 2020 they're still killing it. They're still saying they love us as a brand and they, they love gasoline powered vehicles, and then they didn't. So it's been a real shock to the industry for anybody outside of Tesla and the Chinese automakers. Your Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Volkswagen, all taking it on the chin today. Gm, Ford, Stellantis. It's real.

[Robert Llewellyn]

It's real. I mean, that was an incredible conversation I had with Elliot In, I think, 2022, when Shanghai Motor show or the Beijing Motion, I can't remember which one it was, when he followed a group of European and American executives around the site because nobody else was that interested in them. But he just. He would get. They'd go to the BYD stand and he'd look at their faces and they're going. And he said, essentially what they were saying is, we're screwed. You know, they looked at that, they looked at the battery technology, at the drivetrains, at the software, and they just went. They've. It was like. That was when the rest of the automotive industry in the world realized what the Chinese had been doing.

[Michael Dunn]

Right. You're exactly. Shanghai 2023, they used to have it. When you walk into these huge auto shows and there'd be halls. Yeah. It would all be these western brands and then the side corridors. Maybe there's a BYD or a Chariot, but no one really is going to go over. And then in 2023, it was completely reversed. Right. I got a call from a good friend of mine, Klaus Meyer, who used to be the CEO of Mercedes Benz in their halcyon days in China. He got there in the first day. In 2023, I was boarding a flight out of California. He goes, mike, yeah. It's a shock. It's a. I go, you okay? Yeah. I'm telling you, it's over for foreign brands in China. I said, what?

[T-Mobile Legal Disclaimer]

Wow.

[T-Mobile Advertiser]

What?

[Robert Llewellyn]

Wow.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah.

[T-Mobile Legal Disclaimer]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

That is extreme.

[Michael Dunn]

Just like that. So. So there is a. You know, we have to be mindful of the fact that this is all very good for China. It is a little bit debilitating, a lot debilitating for incumbent automakers and jobs in industry and especially in Europe. So. Yeah. But as a society and as an industry and jobs, we have to be mindful, like, yeah, what's the cost of having a better car out of China? That's. That's real.

[T-Mobile Advertiser]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Oh, absolutely. And I mean, is that thing now that. I don't know if it's. I mean, it is happening up to a certain extent, but, I mean, there's new car factories owned by Chinese companies. I know, in Spain, Hungary.

[Michael Dunn]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

The Czech Republic, you know, they're they're around because what I've been saying, I've been saying to, you know, the only politicians I know, which is very few, can't you get them to come here? We then have to deal with Brexit, which I don't want to talk about, but, you know, will they come to

[Michael Dunn]

the uk, do you think?

[Robert Llewellyn]

I. I mean, I can't. It's not happening at the moment.

[Michael Dunn]

They don't need to right now because

[Robert Llewellyn]

they don't need to. No, I mean, you know, I mean, for one thing, electricity in Spain is about half the cost that it is here and it's all renewable and they've got it right. They've done something right after. They went through a bit of a rough patch, but they've got it sorted. But the, that, that kind of change, I think I can't sense like a big resistance in the, in the public mind against Chinese cars. I mean, I think that the, the difference is that, and that might not be so obvious if you're outside Europe, is that there are companies. So I would say Volkswagen, Renault Citroen. Strangely, I mean, the Renault 5 is a hugely popular car. And you see. I see more of those than I see byds.

[Michael Dunn]

Oh, good.

[Robert Llewellyn]

You know, they're doing. They are, they've done well. They've had a 50 increase in sales since a certain gentleman decided to bomb a quite annoying country.

[Michael Dunn]

Okay.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I don't want to get into the details of that, but I mean that, I've got to say, I've said it publicly a few times. You know, we've spent 16 years promoting and trying to explain about electric vehicles and that, and, you know, we've had some success. I'm not going to be overly humble with that, but in six weeks, one man in America has increased global electric car sales by a phenomenal amount. It's just extraordinary.

[Michael Dunn]

No wonder he has such a. A giant ego.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, I think he's great. I love him.

[Michael Dunn]

You can intend to make happen.

[Robert Llewellyn]

He's the best president you've ever had. But no.

[Michael Dunn]

Anyway, tell me a little bit about your own decision. Like, how did you land on mg? Was that your first Chinese car? Is that your first electric car? What came before?

[Robert Llewellyn]

No, not my first electric car.

[Michael Dunn]

Okay.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I'm trying to work. I think I test drove one and I just went, gosh, this goes a hell of a long way. And look how much it costs.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

You know, just, you know. Yeah. So, I mean, at this time of year, it's realistic. 280 miles range, which is for a car that's that price and size is extraordinary. I mean it's very, very fuel efficient car. And they've got now newer ones, the MG4 Urban, I think is even more.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah, they keep getting better and better. Have they introduced their premium brand in. In uk, the im. Have you seen that?

[Robert Llewellyn]

I'm not sure about the art. The dentist. They are. Oh, sorry, not the im, the mg. Sorry. Yes, I think they have.

[Michael Dunn]

Just coming just. I was in the UK last fall and they were talking about. One of the dealers said we expect to get the IM brand in.

[Robert Llewellyn]

That's right. I think it was at Goodwood. Goodwood. The big festival which I went to and it was just too hot and I was too old and I couldn't cope. When we have a heat wave in Britain, it just. Everything kind of grinds to a halt

[Michael Dunn]

or you know, anyway, a heat wave is in the 70s or whatever. What's the 80s?

[Robert Llewellyn]

Oh, in Fahrenheit. Oh no, it was hot. It was about 38 degrees centigrade, which is probably 90, 90 Fahrenheit, maybe more. I can't remember. I grew up with Fahrenheit but I've forgotten how it works now. I can only do Centigrade.

[Michael Dunn]

Come back. We need more Fahrenheit people.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But the other one, I don't know. What if you're. I think is fascinating is that how, how far back it goes? So say your car maker, say your Mercedes Benz or Audi and you decide you want to make electric cars and then you, you know, as a company you go, well, where do we do we make our own batteries? And they go, well, you can. And they go, what do we need to do that? Oh, well, we need these materials. Nickel, cobalt. Where do we get those from? Well, the Chinese have bought all of them for the next. All of them?

[Michael Dunn]

Did you just say all? Yes, yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Have we got any analogy? A bit of copper.

[Michael Dunn]

You know, what did Henry Ford say? You can have any car color as long as it's black.

[Robert Llewellyn]

As long as it's black.

[Michael Dunn]

If you need battery materials, no problem. You can get it from any country. As long as it's.

[Robert Llewellyn]

As long as it's China. Yeah, but I mean that decision then to do that.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

If you just ignore the politics of the, of it for a moment. The decision to do that, when did that happen? That had to have happened 10, 15 years ago.

[Michael Dunn]

It didn't happen last time, so I'll share. As you may know, I'm just working on a book that'll be published early next year called Cloud Wars. And it goes into the history of this a little bit. I'll just share. One story that I found really, really fascinating is if you remember this, in the 1990s, China said, We're going to have a single luxury car program here in China. And the winner, we're going to have a bid. And whoever, whichever foreign company bids the highest will win the rights to be the exclusive producer of a luxury vehicle for our market. So they set it up beautifully. So who do they get? They got GM and Ford to bid against each other. So for the, over the period of three years, it was Ford saying, we'll promise this, and then GM coming in a little bit higher and then they, Ford, gm, Ford, gm. And then ultimately Jack Smith, CEO, said to the Chinese partner, whatever it takes, it's blank check, we want this. You just tell us what you need.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Okay.

[Michael Dunn]

Wow. So the Chinese at that time, this is 1995, they said, well, we understand you have the subsidiary called magnequinch. Magnequench. At the time, no one had knew about it, but it was the leading company with regards to rare earth magnets, which would later become huge in electric vehicles and many other applications. So GM went to the Defense Department, said, we've been work developing this with you for many years. It also goes into fighter jets, other stuff. Defense Department said, no way in hell. Not part of the deal. Can't happen, won't happen. Nuh. And then GM went to the State Department and the State Department overruled the Defense. They sold magnet coins to the Chinese.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right. Just to make clear, Magna Quetra was an American company.

[Michael Dunn]

I'm sorry. Yes, American company, subsidiary of General Motors, very tight with the Defense Department. Defense applications, advanced technology like you can't believe. And the Chinese said, we want it as part of the deal, but we're going to keep production in Indiana, so don't worry, we're not stealing it. We're not taking. Not. Don't worry, we're buddies. So they did. They kept it in Indiana for about seven more years and then they moved into China. And today China has a complete and utter stranglehold over rare earth metals. So that's just one. And then they continue. They did that with everything else thematically over the last. What's 95? That's like 30 years ago, right? Yeah. Huh.

[Robert Llewellyn]

That is incredible.

[Michael Dunn]

It's. It's been a plan from early on and here we are.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But that foresight, to have that foresight then. Because I'm trying to think when. Yeah, I mean, I didn't really See anything that resembled an electric vehicle until probably 2002. So. But a hybrids I was aware of then. But 2002 I got. We were. I was filming in California, had a. And some very excited engineers came over and this is for a TV show

[Michael Dunn]

called what About EV1 was right around.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I didn't know about the EV1. They must have been around. I was in California at the time. I just. It wasn't in my world. I'd been loaned a 19, a mint condition 1969 fastback Mustang. I was happy.

[Michael Dunn]

Okay. Okay.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. No EV ones were around. I don't. I mean I must have seen them. I was totally unaware of what they were built.

[Michael Dunn]

Only maybe a very few thousand.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I was in the middle of Los Angeles. I'm sure there was some around there. Yeah, but that. But what I'm staggered by is that understanding. So like 90 from 95 onwards. So say about the time that that company moved from Indiana to China was when I. When I first went in a little electric car, an experimental one. It was called the. The T0. It was a. You know, and it had. It was a company called AC Propulsion, an American company that developed the drivetrain which went into the Tesla Roadster. But this was way before Tesla, before Elon Musk, before all that. And it meant nothing to me at the time because it was just. It was a weird car that sounded like a vacuum cleaner, you know, that was all I remember from it. And it went very, very fast.

[Michael Dunn]

I do remember went very fast.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But there were people in the world that were going, this stuff's going to happen.

[Michael Dunn]

Let's make sure we. Fascinating when all these. Because they know the battery costs were high, the range low, there's no charging, there's questions about safety and it would take. That's why imagination is so amazing. Like people can imagine something that seems so unlikely. And here we are.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And I mean presumably was that, do you think, driven in a way in China by the fact that they had to import fossil fuel? And they were.

[Michael Dunn]

You're absolutely right. Just to fast forward that story in 95. By 15 years later, China became the largest car market in the world and they were importing $100 billion. I remember it was at a conference hosted by the Minister Science and Technology, a very impressive guy named Juan Gong. You may know him or you heard of him, Minister of Science and Technology. He said, we have a big problem. We're the biggest market in the world. We build more cars than anyone else, but we're also importing $100 billion a year in oil. And we don't want to get caught up in the same kind of quagmire as the US Is in.

[T-Mobile Legal Disclaimer]

Yeah.

[Michael Dunn]

And he was a big, big advocate of making the switch to electrics.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Wow. Yeah, that is, I mean, it is. Yes. It's the hardest thing not to say when you talk about China and electric. Well, and renewables and ground transport is,

[Michael Dunn]

wow, they're killing it. They're killing it. And then the other thing is that their domestic market, because of the property crash a few years ago, domestic consumer confidence is not high, is not great. So they're sitting on all this firepower and they're saying, well, our own consumers aren't ready to buy, but the rest of the world is. And we've seen them sort of systematically take over steel industry and solar panels, shipbuilding, and it seems like now they set their sights on automotive. And if we do the numbers, Robert, total automotive, like electrics plus gasoline, all the rest, they have capacity of about 50 million cars, vehicles a year in a global market of what, 90 million. So they could supply more than half of.

[Robert Llewellyn]

More than half. Wow. Yeah, that. And when you think 20 years ago they could have probably supplied 2% if that.

[Michael Dunn]

No, yeah, you're right.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, that. Because that, the other thing is that, that's that I, is like beyond my mental capacity. But I had a quick look on Wikipedia for Chinese automakers and it's about, I didn't even count, but it's around about 250 companies. They list 99 of which I've never heard of. You know, all the ones that we, that are common, but there were then about roughly around 70 that I also never heard of that have either gone bankrupt or been absorbed into bigger company. BYD bought them or. Yeah, you know, whatever. I mean, that, that the, the, the churn inside China of car companies seems to be frenetic or. And is that settling down now? Is that, is that, are they winnowing out the, the winners and losers?

[Michael Dunn]

So after graduating, came back to China in 1990, I remember one of my very first impressions is the minister at that time held a conference and he goes, gosh, we have too many automakers here. We have like at the time, they have about 26. And he said, look at the United States, look at Europe, look at Japan. They have four, five, six each. Yeah, that's our goal. And they had the slogan San Da San, the big three and the little three. We're going to have six. Within five years, we're going to have six automakers. And that's it, we're going to consolidate, scale, be efficient just like the rest of the world. So that was in 1990. In 1995 we have 33 automakers. Oops, it's going in the wrong direction. And these many years later, I can't tell you how many campaigns there have been by the central government to consolidate the industry. But it's gone the other direction. We have more than ever before. So people always, that's just very hard for us in the west to get our minds around. Like that's not, doesn't make any sense and it's inefficient, it's wasteful and a lot of them don't make money. And how can this go on? It can't go on as gravity. And yet the way China's economy set up, the reality is that the, all the local governments have incentives to draw investment and sustain loss making vehicle companies like everyone wants to have one in its backyard because it said I'm doing stuff and maybe it'll draw more investment and more jobs. So we have this, an amazing industry with a lot of companies either losing money or making no money. And they don't go away, they don't, they proliferate like rabbits, like, hang on, I thought you went, some of them will be gone for five years and oh, they're back. What happened? And so we have to sort of really do a big adjustment with our mind when we go into China and think it's not a market economy, it's not clearing like it might in the uk. You've got government at every level trying to sustain companies. And an economist would say that can't go on. And I, and I would go, yeah, I get it on paper it can't go on. But I also live this thing seeing it, it keeps going on even though I'm not supposed to. So will it settle? Will there be consolidation? I guess I don't know if you're a golfer, but my caddy used to say, I used to say like I'm out 160, can I get there with a seven iron? And she'd say eventually you'll get there with a seven iron. I don't know how many shots it's going to take you, but eventually we'll get to consolidation. Robert I, I don't know when, but

[Robert Llewellyn]

you're not seeing that happening now. That is, I'm not seeing it in

[Michael Dunn]

every, every generation is smart. Leaders of the car companies themselves say this is not sustainable. It's got, we got to have consolidation. But it doesn't happen because the governor of Fujian and the governor of Anhui and no one wants to give up and they get a state loan, a loan from a state bank to sustain stuff and wow. I, I guess one day. But look at the, there's 1990. How long ago is 1990? They've been trying to consolidate forever and 30.

[Robert Llewellyn]

A lot years. Yes.

[Michael Dunn]

And now, now they're, now they're exporting. So they're saying why would, why would we shut down? This is our glory years ahead of us. So yeah, it's, it's a very peculiar, particular, unique industry unlike anything else in the world. Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes, it is. I mean that doesn't. Because if you, My house is an example literally above me here I've got German solar panels from I don't know what, 15 years ago, but in my backyard I've got a ground mounted load of Chinese ones which were so much cheaper in like 15 years later. And there's more of those and they're really efficient. They're, you know, and so they have had very good. Not. Yeah, but not, but not in, in the same way. I mean the kind of, you know, the public debate around it and the public awareness people, people know about solar panels, they don't know where they come from and they're not interested. Right. And they don't ask.

[Michael Dunn]

Right.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Whereas the cars, they do, they, they go. It's Chinese. And you know, because that's one of the other arguments which suddenly occurred to me then was it's not fair because they're all subsidized by the Chinese government, all these companies. And I mean, I don't know how is that still the case? Because I kind of think I've heard that they were definitely. But companies like BYD are so huge, turning over so much. They're selling so many cars. Are they. I can't. Are they still subsidized in some way by the government?

[Michael Dunn]

They are, they are. I know it's a very delicate and sensitive point on social media because people will say, well, if they measure this and subsidies are actually going away. But I, I'm just sharing my lived experience in China 26 years. And when the state decides we want to take over an industry and dominate it. Right, right. We will bring all of our resources. And the easiest example for it is, is state banks. So there's a directive given from the governor of a province, make the loan to this, to this company.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right.

[Michael Dunn]

Make it 30 years, make it zero interest. And if they need more, let me know. And so you have people go, was that a sub? Oh, it's free money. Then they go, well, this company needs some land. Do we have. Oh, yeah, you're going to employ people. Yeah, land, good. Put the, this company would need some energy. That's discounted at 50. Yeah. And make it, Is it going to help them win?

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right, so it's not necessarily like cash coming from.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah. Subsidies. 7, 500 tax. Tax credit. That's small potatoes. That's like the Chinese are laughing at us going, oh, you guys really? You're going to compete with a 7, 500 tax credit? No, they're all in. And so I don't want to, I don't even want to say it's fair or not fair. It's just different.

[Robert Llewellyn]

It's different.

[Michael Dunn]

That's their playbook and it's working for them. And it presents us with a real dilemma in the West. What do we do? Do we give them access to our markets? If so, we probably put our own industries at risk. Because how do you compete against an all in type of strategy? And that's, that's, I, I think one of the biggest questions facing us in the next 10 years in the west is do we sort of conceive, okay, China's gonna make all of our stuff for us, but I don't know, we need to have incomes ourselves. So.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, I mean, that was, I mean, it is, in a way, the, what I, I feel I've been banging on about, as we say here for the last 10 years, is I'm not saying Chinese cars are better or that we should, we should all buy Chinese cars. I'm going, are you aware.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

That this is happening in China and that their cars are better at the

[Michael Dunn]

moment and there are many very good cars. So that's where the thing gets a little bit blurry because people who don't say they don't like China, they would say the cars are bad and it's only because of subsidies. No, no, no. The cars are actually very good. But also it is true that they get a tremendous amount of support from the government.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Michael Dunn]

So what do we do with this? And what do we do with this? You know, it's, there's trade offs. From a consumer perspective, it's a beautiful thing. I'm getting a better car at a lower cost. From a social perspective, it is, is, it is dangerous. It is dangerous. It's like Warren Buffett used to say, the farmer who keeps selling his land in order to buy more stuff for his family, eventually the land is gone.

[T-Mobile Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Michael Dunn]

Okay. Now what? Yeah, yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

No, I mean, we've definitely inherited a legacy. You know, the current sort of working. Because I'm a bit too old now, but the current working generation, you know, what happened when they. Before they were born and when they were babies was that that massive movement of offshoring which I was aware of as a young adult because I grew up in a country that made diggers and trains.

[Michael Dunn]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And airplanes and cars and motorbikes. You know, there were fact. Everywhere you went. Oh, that's the Royal Enfield factory. It was in England now in India.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah. The ship building up in the ship building.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, yeah. Huge industry that employed tens of thousands of people. But also coal mining, which was, you know, you know, not a pleasant job to do, regardless of the other aspects of it.

[Michael Dunn]

But, you know, that's a great point. And today's coal mining is refining battery, the minerals that go into batteries, which is a very, very dirty business. China said, we'll take it. And the west said, great, we don't want that. Now we find ourselves in a pickle. So I think the pendulum swung really, really wide. And I think as a. As a globe, as a collection of nations, we have to sort of bring

[Robert Llewellyn]

it back to work out what to do.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I mean, it is desperately want to have. I mean, I've spent a huge lump of my career trying to encourage people to take up engineering and to study engineering and to become engineers because we. Even if we don't make the stuff, we need people around who can fix it.

[Michael Dunn]

Yes, it works. What?

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, yeah, we should be making this stuff. But it is. I mean, it is heartbreak. There's a. Was a huge factory not 20 miles from where I live, which was Honda's factory that they made cars in in England.

[Michael Dunn]

What was that?

[Robert Llewellyn]

It was in a town called Swindon, just outside Swindon, really. And it's still there. And if you drive.

[Michael Dunn]

Wasn't that.

[Robert Llewellyn]

No, that's. This is Honda. So Nissan. I've got a big factory in the north.

[Michael Dunn]

Okay.

[Robert Llewellyn]

In Newcastle, Sunderland. But this was a very big car factory that was operating not that long ago. And as you drive down the road there, it says. It's got a sign that says, you know, the name of three weird old English villages. And at the bottom it says Honda. And this is on a proper roadside because it was such a big thing. You want to turn left here to go. To go to Honda. Honda's gone. That's closed down and it's empty and it's. Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Dunn]

So did you see that? There's a headline the other day, Honda declared its first loss since 1955 last year.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. Which is bad. And I've just driven the Honda Super N. We've just done a review of it.

[Michael Dunn]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Which is a little K cart.

[T-Mobile Advertiser]

Great.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And the seats at the clever seats in the back and the storage space, tiny little thing. I parked it in one of our most annoying market towns that's very popular with tourists. It's quite near us and there's never anywhere to Park. There's 5,000range rovers all trying to park tourists and they're all like this. And I was in that little cat and I just found a parking space outside the post office. No one else would be able to.

[Michael Dunn]

How does it compare in terms of size with say a Fiat 500 or.

[Robert Llewellyn]

It's similar size, very narrow, very short, amazing turning circle. You know, it's not very good range, it's. But it's reasonably. I mean you just hope that they, that it sells well. It's a quirky looking thing, you know, but I mean, and for a city to be in a city with it would make so much sense.

[T-Mobile Legal Disclaimer]

Perfect.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But you're right though, I mean that is incredible. And they were, you know, and I do, I worry about Toyota and their solid state batteries, you know, will they do it? And you know, and you sort of think, oh yeah, 20, 28, oh, that's not too bad. And then you see Denzer now already with 5 minute charging and a completely different battery chemistry and you know, they, they. And that will have been developed five years ago, you know, they, they're so far ahead of the game.

[Michael Dunn]

There's such fierce competitors to the Chinese, like if they're coming to these markets and saying we're really good and we're going to hold our profit margins, but they don't mind, they compete fiercely with each other and they'll drive margins to nothing.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right. Yeah.

[Michael Dunn]

So recently I heard Mary Barra talking about the China market, saying, we looked at the thing, what's happening there, it's not sustainable. And I thought it's not sustainable for gm. No, but it might be sustainable for the Chinese. They'll hang around making like nothing for 10 years and go, that's fine because 10 years later we'll own the whole thing.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. And in 10 years there'll be so many people around the world who've had a BYD for seven years and it was really good and it didn't break down, it didn't catch fire and the rest of it, you know, that's the. Yeah. It is, it is. I mean, it is a real dilemma. I think it goes beyond the car market.

[Michael Dunn]

It absolutely goes beyond the car market. So we need more. I drive a Tesla, I've driven Tesla since 2015. We need. In the west, we need more Tesla, we need Rivian to win. We just need more companies like that in our own backyards to innovate and go for it. Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I mean, I think. I like the fact that in the United States at the moment, where there isn't a lot of. Of. I think it would be fair to say there's not a lot of government support for electric vehicles, but the. Well, and I can't remember the name of it, there's a little pickup truck that's just come out recently.

[Michael Dunn]

Yes, Slate.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Slate. I mean, that's a brilliant, brilliant, innovative bit of technology. And. And it had. It does seem to have survived. A lot of young people,

[Michael Dunn]

they're into it in America because they said, we don't need all that complexity. We just want a vehicle with a little. We want to have our Apple CarPlay in there.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Michael Dunn]

As long as it does that. So I'll roll up windows, I don't care. Get the price down. Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, that's very true.

[Michael Dunn]

And I think that finds a way. I hope it finds a way.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, what do you. Where do you see it going then? I mean, just to round it up, you know. Have you seen products in China that, you know, so more recent electric vehicles and not just cars, I mean, because of the. The big change with buses and trucks and, you know, larger vehicles, is that. I think that, to me feels like that that's the next step, if you like, that we'll see more and more of those.

[Michael Dunn]

Absolutely. But buses, they. They quietly are. Are in many cities around the world, and trucks are coming fast, I think, for the West. And it's almost like if we're really honest with ourselves. I know. I think Jim Farley, you recently had a conversation with him about how to compete with them. I don't know. In basketball, they say you can't teach tall. Right. In the car business, I don't know that anybody can summon the scale that China has when it comes to manufacturing. So even we saw recently Tesla half of their global productions in China. Lexus is deciding to go. I couldn't believe my ears, my eyes. Lexus is going into China to build electric vehicles. Why? Because they looked around the world and they said, we cannot build it anywhere else in the world. So it's almost as if the west has to move on, I think, Robert, to autonomy, to software and autonomy and beyond manufacturing electric cars, because it's going to be very hard for any country in the west to hold its own.

[Robert Llewellyn]

It's interesting, in London at the moment, the Waymo cars are being tested. You see them everywhere.

[Michael Dunn]

Do you really?

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. Oh, really common. But that's.

[Michael Dunn]

What vehicle are they running?

[Robert Llewellyn]

Your Ipace? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Dunn]

Beautiful.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And they're. I mean, it's not like the first time I saw one, I went, oh my God, that's a Waymo. And I took a picture of it. I can't be bothered. There's so many. There's so many. I don't bother anymore.

[Michael Dunn]

It's really easy if you haven't done so yet, just very easy to download the app. Super cool. Just summon it and it's going to pull up a little bit. Spooky. I don't know in London, but I spent a lot of time in San Francisco. There's no hello, there's. Where's the driver? There's no driver. Just pulls over, you get in and you go.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Off it goes. I mean, they're not, they're still, they're not. You can't hire one in. In London yet. They're still testing it. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, it's a, it's causing a lot of debate. We're going through that phase of the debate. But that. What's interesting is that's not a Chinese company. No, that is an American and British companies.

[Michael Dunn]

Right.

[Robert Llewellyn]

In terms of the Jaguar and.

[Michael Dunn]

And Wave is in there. Impressive British company doing autonomy too. So they're just go back to the west is best when it's innovating and it can't hold on to the past. So the Chinese are best in class when it comes to manufacturing. Whether it's our cell phone, our iPhones or our Teslas or, you know, they're very good at manufacturing. They have the scale, they have the government support, they have the supply chains, they have, as you said, they have the batteries locked up. I mean, we can get, we can pull the. Even maybe 10 years from now, but that would be really, really a heavy lift. So let's try to move to the next thing. Which doesn't mean everybody's going to go autonomous, but in cities like London or San Francisco or New York or around the world where there's high density.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, it makes it. Well, yes. I mean, it just. What you want is no other cars. Don't drive a car in London. I mean, it's incredibly stupid to drive a car in London. You can walk faster. Right, right, right.

[Michael Dunn]

What's going on here? Why are all these cars, why are

[Robert Llewellyn]

all these people sitting in a metal box while people walk past them? Well, because that someone did that few years ago. It's not new news. I think the, the average speed of a, of a transport thing in, in 1850 was about seven miles an hour. It was a horse drawn carriage and now the average speed of a motor vehicle in London is about seven miles an hour.

[Michael Dunn]

Oh, great progress. Wow.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, that's, that's really so. Yeah, that needs some going the same speed. Yeah, that was the one thing, I think I mentioned this to you in an email. But the one thing that electric vehicles do not solve is congestion. I mean now you can, I can sit in a traffic jam in London. It's all electric cars, there's no petrol cars in sight. But we're still in a traffic jam.

[Michael Dunn]

It's still in a traffic jam. Still.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Michael Dunn]

Still bumper to bumper. Wondering how we got that.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But then, I mean do you. So from what I can judge then, you're not seeing the end of the Chinese, if you like the Chinese automotive invasion of the rest of the world. It's kind of the beginning.

[Michael Dunn]

It's the beginning. It's the beginning now. So as you said a moment ago, it may move beyond the business of cars to. Yeah very quickly to politics and saying hang on, wait a second, we have some big things at risk here. Our so called tentpole if we lose our auto industry. Yeah, that's, that's it.

[T-Mobile Legal Disclaimer]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Well any, because it is still a huge industry in the United States, it's much less here, it's much more, you know, if essentially we make what we're good at and I think we will continue to do is to make very expensive luxury cars. You know, the Rolls Royces, your Bentleys, your Jaguar Land Rovers are doing. I mean I think they're all struggling in their own way, but they're not, they've survived, you know and they, and they have a, that brand has a, still has a, a punch, doesn't it? I think.

[Michael Dunn]

Definitely, definitely.

[Robert Llewellyn]

If you're in a Rolls Royce in China, people know you're rich.

[Michael Dunn]

Oh yeah. I would imagine it comes with Rolls.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. But no, it's been fascinating talking to you. Michael, thank you so much for, for find where we got there in the end, which was great. But. And I would love to talk to you again, you know, about.

[Michael Dunn]

Tremendous. Yeah. Next time I hope we, we connect. I'll be who knows, maybe I'm in the UK or back.

[Robert Llewellyn]

If you're in the uk, let me know please. Yeah, no, that would be great to meet up. No, really, really good fun. Thank you so much.

[Michael Dunn]

Tremendous. And thank you so much for having me and we'll see you soon.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Really hope you enjoyed that. What a great man. What a fascinating thing. We will definitely talk to Michael again. It's been really good to to make contact with him, that's all. Please, you know, do come back next time. I'm not going to say anything else. As always, if you have been thank you for watching this summer there are

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