Imdra Bogle (2:45)

benefit of the audience, interrogating how Chinese automakers are spending big or cutting back. And last but not least, a little bit of clickbait from the I paper. So all of that to come. But first, a very quick advert break.

Dan Caesar (3:03)

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Imdra Bogle (3:30)

All right, so let's get into story number one, EV Avalanche, which you're absolutely right, written down. Evalanche spelled with EV does work out loud in a spoken medium. Let's go with EV Avalanche. But what are we talking about here and what's the headline?

Dan Caesar (3:45)

Well, as you know, I love to crucify an analogy. And from, from my standpoint, you know, the classic marketing curve is kind of like a. It's kind of like a big hill, basically. And at the beginning, you see the pioneers and the early adopters. So that was people like Robert Llewellyn and Quentin Wilson getting in their evs many, many moons ago. And then you see the kind of early adopters, the early mainstream, the late mainstream, and the laggards. We're firmly in the early mainstream, which is why it's actually quite tricky, because the mainstream isn't one amorphous mass of people, and there's a huge group called the laggards who will not buy an EV until they absolutely have to do so and will do so under the COVID of darkness. And delete all their comments that were negative about EVs in the first place. But actually, I think you could look at that kind of hill as a bit of a mountain that we have to climb. And, you know, crucifying that analogy, we're dealing with the front edge at the moment of the mountain. We've seen a big landslip recently, a big avalanche recently, in that the oil crisis that's unfolding in the Middle east, the cost of oil has put the cost of motoring right in the consumer's mind eye. And quite a few consumers already aware that actually EVs are cheaper to run. Not everyone is. Most people still don't realize that and to what extent, but a lot of people are, and they've accelerated their EV purchases as a result of this news. But my point is, I guess that there's still a huge mountain, still a lot of greens to eat, still a lot of hard work to be done over the next decade to actually get as many people into battery EVs as possible. And what we've seen is the front edge of that mountain sort of fall away. Make no mistake that it hasn't changed the market structurally, permanently. There's a lot of discussion about that at the moment. There has been a huge amount of euphoria, I would say, and giddiness in the kind of the EV community that, oh, okay, surely everyone's going to move to EVs now. And there's been some extraordinary anecdotal stories of used car lots and in Australia, for example, being unable to get any stock or their stock has gone, huge backlogs, etc. Etc. And while some of that is true, the reality is that the market is up, but petrol cars are still selling, diesel cars are still selling. That is not going to go away anytime soon. So the idea really is that there's a huge amount of work to do and actually there's a huge amount of inertia in the system. How often have we talked about the fact that there's industrial scales and misinformation about EVs out there, that that is going to take some serious undoing over a long period of time by making people realize that these vehicles are cheaper and better. We're hardwired by advertising over decades to get in cars, and we're hardwired to get in combustion cars in particular. So unwinding that is going to be a long process. So. So I don't know if you've seen the stats over the last month or so, but the invasion of Iran actually was right at the end of February, February 28th. And we've. So we've seen the whole month of March now in terms of sales statistics for cars new and used start to come through. We start to see what happened in the entirety of March. And it is quite interesting. There has been some change, some movement, but not perhaps as much as some would like to see. I don't know if you've seen some of the stories, so I have seen

Imdra Bogle (7:12)

some of the stats, but I do have to wonder that actually that upswing that we're seeing in the March sales, and there is an upswing, is much more likely to be driven by anticipated oil shocks coming later in the year as that sort of trickle effect of shortages unfolds. So I wouldn't be surprised if we see another big uptick in September time when we're really feeling the crunch of the oil crisis. And also then we've got new, the new number plates as well. But, yeah, I mean, the numbers are pretty telling. Do you want to walk us through some of them?

Dan Caesar (7:44)

Yeah, I think it is interesting. I think you're right. I think, you know, one month's numbers does not summer make, you know, that's the reality. And I think, yes, the cost of energy is going to get, you know, higher as a result of what's happened. That is going to impact families, economies in general, not just their motoring, of course, but in a whole range of other reasons, which is why we think cost savings you can make by driving EVs are going to be more and more important. So, yes, this is going to play out over quite a long period of time now. I don't think it's any exaggeration to say actually what's happening now will play out over at least a year and we'll still be feeling the ramifications of this over the next 12 months at least, possibly longer. But in the short term, there's a limit to what you can see in the new market. You can understand that, right? The new market is different to the used market in the uk, the bulk of sales, for example, and most markets are used, most people are buying used and a relative few people are buying new. But the new market tends to be a slightly longer process. It's not just about being glib, but walking onto a forecourt, kicking the tires and choosing something. It does take a little bit longer because you're spending more money, for example. But the reality is that quite often orders are placed, deliveries awaited. So actually, you're not going to see huge difference in the new numbers. In the uk, actually, as a percentage of car sales, in March, we saw a record number of battery EVs sold, but it's still at 22% of the whole market, which is roughly where it's been all along. I agree with you. I think that might go up to 25%, maybe 28%, 30% over the next few months, as those kind of orders that are being placed in March actually come to fruition in the numbers in April, May, June. So I could see that happening. But in Australia, you're actually seeing a bit more of a bounce. Actually, it was a bit more immediate than that. So in Australia, actually it was 11% new car sales in February, in March it was 14.6%. So actually quite a noticeable amount. And I think what's going on in Australia is a little bit different to the uk. Yes, they are a landmass kind of out on their own, but actually they're very, very, very reliant on diesel. They're also, the war has prompted, you know, fears of, you know, resilience, what does that mean for Australia, etc. So and then there's a few, the fear of actually running out of fuel, which is not to be conflated with the cost benefits actually there's actually a fear of not being able to get around at all. So in Australia we've seen new market bounce and we've seen all sorts of stories from all across the world. In America, used EV market is up significantly. Same in the uk, but also in Australia we've heard some incredible stories about, you know, as I said, car lots full of used cars, all the EVs selling out very, very quickly as people go and grab those while they can. But the reality is that there's not a structural shift taking place. It's quite a big upswing and it will last over a period of time. But there's still a huge amount of people back in that, back in that mountain, back in the hills who are kind of in that kind of late mainstream and laggard position who still need to be convinced over a long period of time. So things have changed, but not quite as much as some of the euphoria might have suggested.

Imdra Bogle (11:07)

I think the other interesting dynamic is that the people who we're seeing purchase EVs either secondhand or firsthand now are people who probably a, were largely considering it and then the invasion of Iran just sort of tipped them over the edge and were like, okay, well now is the time to do it. Or they're people who are very affluent and can make that snap decision. And so I do think the dynamics are going to be interesting as we go through the year. And actually the availability of affordable EVs either in the first hand market or indeed the second hand market becomes even more prescient. I'm sure you watched the video that Roger Atkins posted on LinkedIn about why diesel in particular is so expensive. And Ed Conway did, as ever, the most wonderful explanation on Sky. So we'll definitely link to that as well because I think it's just, it paints a very, very clear picture why Diesel in particular is so expensive, but also why Australia is so exposed to it and indeed so is the uk. But Less so than Australia.

Dan Caesar (12:08)

Yeah. I mean, the reality is we're gonna have to chisel away at this mountain for a long period of time. Quite often the, the headwinds have been against ev, politically speaking, lots of incumbent money, trying to slow the move to EV down, misinformation, etc. So this is something that actually is pushing people towards that decision making. But I agree, probably quite a lot of people who've bought EV in the last month have done so because they're already quite close to buying one or they had the means to do so. So it's probably brought forward some demand, but not necessarily change the market permanently. But it's certainly an interesting time. And it's certainly putting EVs and the fact that they're cheaper to run and cheaper over total cost of ownership, it's putting that in the news on a regular basis, which is not unhelpful to our cause.

Imdra Bogle (12:57)

Yeah, there's been a lot of headlines that have said things along the lines of there's a lot of smug EV drivers right now. And yes, there are, and we are some of them. Shall we move to story two?

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Dan Caesar (14:17)

the second story really is about Chinese ambition. It's hard to have a podcast about the future of the car industry and not talk about China's influence in it. But there are a couple of stories that I've seen this week that kind of interested me and I'm going to try and weave them together if you like. So one of the Stories comes from Automotive News, a very august title in the industry, which talks about the investment some of the Chinese cars car companies are making. And the second story is from the Car Expert, which actually shows to what extent Chinese carmakers are making inroads in the UK market. So what's interesting is Automotive News. The article actually focuses on a survey that's been done, large scale survey in Germany which talks about German consumer awareness of Chinese brands. Chinese brands know they need to invest in their brand. Most people won't buy a vehicle without first recognizing the brand and familiar familiarity is not enough. They also, these car companies have got to build positive associations. So the survey that was done by a gentleman called Martin Fasnacht said many consumers may have heard of Chinese manufacturers but only a few can name one. And it was quite interesting when they got into awareness of the different brands. Actually some of the newer brands that we know, Chang', An's, Deepal, Cherry, Zmoda and JKU is only about 1% as it stands. Leap Motor, a bit better known as is Lynk and Co which has been in Germany for a few years at 11%. But BYD stands out with a massive 64 recognition and I think we all know why that is. They've spent big, but also they were the headline sponsor of UEFA's European soccer tournament in Germany in 2024. So it's really interesting to see that that money was I think very, very well spent. By comparison mg, which is obviously well known here in the UK and well known in Australia is also quite well known because it's already got a bit of a head start. So that's got 26% recognition in Germany as well. So that's really kind of interesting to, to me to, to see that the market will not be won easily and this is a big part of it is getting your brand out there, making the sales on the ground, but also making sure people are aware and trust, trust the brand in the first place. And BYD has done a very, very good job of that. We can also see some other brands, particularly a Moda JQ which is part of the Cherry Group and I'll come on to them in a minute. Also spending big to make sales to get their brands out there, to get their name plates out on the road. Geely as well. Geely as a brand, as a parent group it's obviously got lots of different brands that sit beneath it such as the Polestars of this world, the Volvos, Lotus etc but actually Geely is now launched in the uk as well. And they are also spending big, going after this prize, if you like, but some others are not. They're actually not doing much activity at all. And it's hard to see, isn't it, how if three big companies spend a fortune on, on the market and start to gain traction and share, it's hard to see how the others will be able to compete with that or just resign themselves to maybe selling cars in, in much lower volumes. But scale is what the car industry is all about. So if you can't really leverage your, your scale, that could be problematic. But trying to segue it on just very, very quickly, Imogen, because I know you're dying to make a point as well, but what we've seen in the UK now is big impact from byd, Cherry, Jaco, Omoda in particular. And I wanted to go into some of the statistics on that, but I'll let you go.

Imdra Bogle (18:08)

No, no, you go for it. Go into the statistics.

Dan Caesar (18:11)

Well, I mean, I think so. The Car Expert, which website run by Stuart Masson, reported on some of details behind the SMMT's new car market that were released this week. And the market in total, all powertrains grew 7% year on year. But actually it's BYD and the Cherry Group, which includes Jaco Nomota, now accounts for more than the market's overall growth, meaning established brands are losing ground. And the point Stuart makes is 2 years ago byd was only just launching its first cars in the UK and Cherry Group did not yet exist here at all. Now they're combined year to date. Registrations are ahead of Volkswagens, which is the UK's biggest single brand and traditionally the dominant force in the UK market. Their growth is also greater than that of the market overall, meaning they are taking thousands of sales away from other brands rather than simply adding to total registrations. March was the clearest example yet of how this is changing the market. Spending big, employing the right strategies, having good cars is definitely an important part of that, of course, but it's not the only part. It's about your go to market strategy and we're seeing, think some clear signs that some of these brands are really, really starting to gain traction.

Imdra Bogle (19:25)

But it is such an interesting thing, we've definitely spoken about this before, that you can have a great product at a great price. But ultimately cars are not just rational purchases, they're deeply, deeply irrational. And we are a funny market as a UK market that we have, we're creatures of habit and we're snobby about certain brands. And you know, just to, I remember being at school, age like 10, and people being like, what supermarket is your lunch from? And even having that kind of judgment back then. So let alone when a new entrant comes into market, we don't see a new entrant as a thing to be like, oh, that's cool, it's new, it's shiny, let's go for it. We see it as like, oh no, we'll double down on the things that we know. So these brands of course have to spend extremely big in order to gain some kind of brand awareness and brand traction. But what I find interesting is that I can well imagine the conversations in traditional OEMs where I know just how bureaucratic those organizations can be and how painful it can be to get sign off on even the most minuscule amounts of money. They must just be looking at these big campaigns thinking, oh for God's sake, how on earth do we go beyond just leveraging our legacy and our reputation?

Dan Caesar (20:37)

Well, just this year only, you know, we've seen BYD become a sponsor for Manchester City, which will win them some, some sales in Manchester. The blue half of Manchester, maybe not the red half of Manchester will win them sales globally. I'm sure. We've seen Denzer join, join up with Daniel craig the last 007. I mean these are, these are big moves, right? And then we see in their go to market strategy, we see, you know, the likes of BYD do a very good job in terms of getting out into the market from a dealership perspective selling. The likes of BYD and Cherry, Omoto, JQ and Geely are all present at our Everything Electric shows which are coming up shortly. But as you say, to the bureaucracy point, we can't even get a response out of some of the legacy manufacturers who don't seem to want to be present when there are thousands of battery evidence buyers wanting test drives and looking to put money down. They won't even respond to our outreach. So, you know, that's not a subtle plug, but it's an interesting dynamic that we're seeing play. But yeah, certainly some of the ambition being seen is great. But it's not just about China, right? There are some great legacy brands, the likes of MG who are backed by China as well, are also making great strides in the market. But you know, our friends at Renault, haven't they done brilliantly in recent times, what a lineup they've got. And I haven't got time to mention all the different carmakers, so it isn't just about China, but it's, it's playing a bigger and bigger role in the UK market. And that statistic that they're effectively together outselling out registering Volkswagen already is just astonishing.

Imdra Bogle (22:22)

So before we started recording this podcast, I was telling you that Rob and I had started to talk about Daniel Craig's collaboration with the Densa GT9. On the podcast of an hour Monday, however, one of our editors had to kindly say, I think we need to cut it. And I was like, oh, why? He was like, well, you just both definitely got incredibly confused between Mission Impossible and James Bond. Okay, that's totally fair. Thank you for making us look less like idiots. So, yeah, but we're talking about it now. But I do think they must have paid. I would love to know how much Daniel Craig has been paid for this collaboration because it's got to be a hefty fee. I'm not sure it's entirely something that he'd have, he'd have said yes to willy nilly no.

Dan Caesar (23:13)

But yeah, another, another coup. And I'm sure you can expect more collaborations of, of that type to, to come. You know, there is no doubt about it, there is some serious ambition and the point that I think sometimes is missed. We talk a lot in the car industry about, you know, conquesting, so one brand conquesting sales away from another. So every time BYD sells a car they will be asking what brand the previous the owner had previously and they'll be making a record of who they're conquesting most away from. And that loyalty is up for grabs at the moment. But my view is strongly that it will cement again, it will coalesce and it will cement over the next five to 10 years. But if you were, I don't know. One of the interesting things I think to me is that the JKU 7, I believe it is, is the best selling car in March in the whole of the uk. It is a phev, I think it's a plug in hybrid, but it's outsold everything else. And I would say that it looks quite Range Rover. Ish. Totally different price tag and internal quality. But yes, yeah, well, anyway, it is, it is that they're two very different products, I will say that. But the reality is that in the absence of Range Rover having a product in the market, people are going towards that. Or there are people who've always wanted a Range Rover but could never afford one who are, who are going towards that. So for that to be the best selling car in the UK in the month of March and by a distance you tells you everything this conquesting is going on. But ultimately if someone likes the JQ or they like the BYD and they maybe buy one, maybe buy a second one, they might be quite difficult to shift out of those cars in 5, 10 years time. So I think it will, it will crystallize around certain brands. And actually how much of the Chinese brands cars improved already? There's no reason that a jq, byd, etc won't get even better while keeping costs down over the next five to 10 years. So that conquesting piece is an interesting one.

Imdra Bogle (25:22)

Super, super interesting. And certainly the Jaeger is the car that I see most out and about in car parks. I'm like, oh God, another one. There we go. It is interesting though when you go on these sort of press trips and you speak to various engineers and to various people within car brands that yes, there is this general sentiment of like the Chinese OEMs can produce cars very, very quickly that are very brilliant and their manufacturing quality has certainly improved. But when it comes to chassis dynamics, Europe is still seen as the absolute center of excellence. But then also Chinese brands are being wise to that and basing some of their operations to do with some of those aspects here in Europe as well. So yeah, very interested to see how, with a few years of ownership, how that changes things or not as the case may be for the likes of BYD and jku. But super quick question. If you were going to part with your own cash for an ev, what would you get?

Dan Caesar (26:19)

Right now that's a really, really good question. I, I currently am driving a Model 3 which I still think is very, very, very good. You and I drove the new sort of cheaper version of the Model 3 recently. I just think pound for pound they're excellent. I am actually, we didn't rehearse this question. I am actually kind of in the market at the moment. I'm pretty keen on the Polestar 4. I think we've discussed that before, but the other day I drove the XPENG G6 performance and that was astounding. So I'm trying to get another drive of that. So I am actually in the, in the market and then we've been very fortunate to be driving around a little bit in a Renault 5 recently as well, which is also a great car at a much lower price point. So. Non answer. But there's a few, there's. Well, I mean it's just like being a kid in a candy shop now. There are just so many good options, but those are, those are some of the ones that I really like, but I could go on. Like the Hyundai Ioniq 5N. I don't know if you've driven that, you've got the Oniq 5. Right. Which is great. The 5N is unbelievably fun. Anyway, I could go on, but there's. There's some amazing cars out there. Now, what would you. What would you get if you. If you. If you were forced to right now? The Ferrari.

Imdra Bogle (27:25)

Well, quite. You know what? So I'm seeing. We were doing a shoot with Ferrari at the end of May and the email came to me and I was like, I've currently got plans to see a friend in Yorkshire. And I was like, I'd like you to know that I've turned down Ferrari to come and see you in Yorkshire. And also, more importantly than that, I mean, that's something that. I could not take that from Robert. He needs to do that car. But no, not a Ferrari. I think the challenge that we have as a family at the moment is that I am 5 3. My husband is 6 4. I would go for something like, to be honest, like the Kia EV2, something pretty small and dinky, but is disguised as a bigger kind of car. He just. He won't serve that. He needs something like, actually quite big and largely because he's just got the longest legs in the entire world. So we definitely have a huge difference of opinion on that sense at the moment. But he is very, very keen on the Polestar 3. But in order for that to happen, it'd be quite nice if some mysterious person just wrote us a check and made that dream come true. But, yeah, we're. We're definitely having that debate at the moment. But I do love the Ionic 5.

Dan Caesar (28:46)

It is great.

Imdra Bogle (28:47)

Yeah, yeah. And we've had. I'm going to share this grievance. We've been really, really fortunate to have the Renault 5 as a production team for the past year. And it has almost been exactly a year. I had it for three days. That is it.

Dan Caesar (29:04)

I think Robert is similarly frustrated, I think. For two days. Yeah. But it is a good car. It's a very, very good car. I have to say.

Imdra Bogle (29:13)

We sacrificed the team and that's the kind of people we are. All right, let's move to story three.

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Dan Caesar (30:03)

is alive and well and we saw, we do see it. Still, I'm going to say with absolutely no statistical backup that we're seeing a little bit less at the moment, but maybe I'm just not seeing it. But we saw an absolute doozy in the Eye, which is part of a spin off of the Independent, I believe not to be confused with Independent because Steve Fowler, the Independent does a brilliant job if you don't go to that talking about all the new EVs, so not to be confused with them, but the Eye did a, a piece yesterday basically that, that said, you know, EV drivers shouldn't be so smug. I guess this is probably again part in, in part due to the oil cris of EV drivers saying actually it's much cheaper to run my EV than it is for you to to run a combustion engine vehicle. But not only was the headline, you know, an absolute masterclass in clickbait, so was the kind of the lead and the article and the end piece of the article, there was a little bit of an omission that actually EVs are 30 to 50%, you know, less impactful on the environment over the total Cradle to Gray. There was a brief admission of that, but it was surrounded by, obfuscated by a whole other range of bits of misinformation. Of course a lot of people just read the headline image and we know this, right? Or just read the first couple of lines. So job done. But I'm going to little read out a little bit for you. But so the, the, the journalist who, who I will not name. But the truth is that electric vehicles are much less environmentally friendly at the beginning and at the end of their lives than petrol and diesel cars. Yeah, well, the middle bit is the most important bit I would say. With their manufacture and eventual disposal requiring more raw materials and causing more pollution, carbon emissions are only a part of the environmental story, albeit an important one. And in some other key environmental regards, EVs are significantly worse than petrol and diesel vehicles. And actually the reality is that the BMW Neuer class of vehicles that we've covered recently, the ix3, you know, the payback means that actually after about 12,000 miles of driving, this is from BMW that actually is, is is much, much, much cleaner. So the reality is that EVs are cheaper, they are better, but they are much, much cleaner. And I felt this was sort of a slightly anachronistic throwback, this article, to, to a time when people didn't know that. And the one bit that made me laugh at the end said, all in all, they are certainly nowhere near the environmental panacea they are presented as by many, especially where the battery is concerned. And I have to, I have to take issue with that kind of very narrow thinking. An environmental panacea means we don't have cars at all. Right. You know, and I would love that. We were going around on bicycles and, you know, we were using public transport. No more than anyone. I would love that. But we live in a world that's been built, if you're in the UK and America and Australia, less so in the Netherlands. Lovely Netherlands. But we've been built around the car, it's been built around vehicles. Right. You know, things are a certain distance apart. You know, public transport isn't great often, it's very, very expensive. So we live in a world where we have to accept the cars are going to be quite a big part of that. And most EV evangelists aren't presenting evs as a panacea, they're just saying they are much better than the alternative. I can't. I've never met an EV evangelist who hadn't said, yeah, but ultimately, if, you know, if you really wanted to, to, to do the right thing environmentally, you would stop buying things in total, you'd stop flying, you'd buy, you'd ride a bike, etc, you go on public transport. So that kind of made me laugh because I've never heard anyone say it's the panacea. It isn't a panacea, but it's a much better option than a diesel or a petrol vehicle from an environmental perspective.

Imdra Bogle (33:58)

What also really bothers me about this article is that it's very much written in the sense of, you know, you're in year seven at school and they're like, write a negative article, 11 to 12 years old. You don't need to include any kind of statistics or any kind of references. You can just say something is bad and then leave it at that. And that's precisely what this does. It says, batteries are difficult to recycle at the end of their life. Well, try recycling burnt fossil fuels that have gone into the atmosphere, like back that up with something and actually we can prove that recycling batteries is actually very straightforward, not least because the first point of recycling is a second life. So therefore you're literally just taking it out, probably doing a little bit of a software update, putting it in a different application. And at the end of its life, it is also pretty straightforward to recycle. By their nature, they are an inherently much more circular item. So it's just like such utter tripe and there's just no adequate comparison in this article at all. It's total nonsense. And honestly, I read it and I'm like, you should not be proud of this, dear journalist. And I don't think you should send this to your mum or indeed your old school teachers because they would berate you for a lack of quality.

Dan Caesar (35:16)

But there we go, that's absolutely withering. I like that review, it was very good.

Imdra Bogle (35:21)

But I will just leave you with this. So my favourite fact about EVs is that if you take a petrol and diesel car, over the course of its life, it will burn. Imagine if you had a barrel of oil and you stacked them on top of each other, you'd get a stack about 90 meters high of barrels of oil. That's what that car would consume over the course of its life. That oil is obviously burnt, obviously. Petrol, diesel, it's burnt, it's out in the atmosphere, you can't get it back, whatever. And that's not even considering the energy that's gone into producing the car. Whereas for an electric car, the materials that you cannot recycle from the battery probably equates to about a football sized hunk of material. So let's say that's like 15 to 30 kilos of material. So suddenly we have a stack of oil, a stack of barrels 90 meters tall versus a football size shape in terms of waste that can't be recuperated. It's just like it's not even a comparison. And then of course, all cars, whether they're electric or whether they're petrol diesel, they all need to fit the same legislation of how much they can be recycled and how much the manufacturer is responsible for that. So it's just. Anyway, we could go on, but we should, we should not lose any energy to poor journalism.

Dan Caesar (36:44)

Absolutely, absolutely. Should we just finish off quickly with a couple of very quick wins and loses? I prepared some, so I feel like I kind of need to.

Imdra Bogle (36:52)

Oh, go, go ahead.

Dan Caesar (36:54)

Well, I think a win. I was gonna say, I think Australia's doing very, very well with its kind of, you know, promotion of evs. But I just wanted to say briefly that I think this is interesting. It's Got sales statistics from a whole variety of sources yesterday, but Tesla in the uk, we were down in Southampton recently, we saw a huge amount of Teslas waiting, we thought to be delivered. It looked like so many I was worried. But actually if you compare their. So they, they basically, their sales are often taken out of context as you know they actually do the bulk of their deliveries at the end of each quarter. That's the way that they've always done it. But when they have a first month result, actually journalists often warp that and say Tesla's down etc. And Tesla, you know, it has, it hasn't grown in the way that we might have expected it to a few years ago, but across Q1 2026, their registration figures have gone up versus the same quarter before by 32%. So actually they've, they've had a bit of, a, bit of a rebound in the first three months of this year and they brought out the, the cheaper versions, the knuckle standard. The knuckle standard, cheaper versions of their cars as well. So interesting to see them kind of rebound along with the story about how well the Chinese companies are doing too. And then in terms of losers, I've got, I cannot help mention the kind of the warmonger in chief really. The used EV market in the US is really flying. It's really, really starting to go well. And I got to mention his name because I know it would, it would wind the other one up. But many of the cars originally leased during the Biden administration when the federal tax credit helped drive adoption, those vehicles are now cycling back into wholesale channels, boosting availability. With more to come. And Experian reckons that EV is going to make up 15% of all off lease vehicles by the end of 2026 are doubling from the start of this year. And finally US fuel savings can be had there as well. And so a Seattle nonprofit called Cultura showed that as gasoline prices have surged, the average gasoline price is now $4.14, up from $3.41 a month ago. What that means is that someone driving 25000 miles a year in an EV could expect to save over $3,000 by annually by switching from an internal combustion engine to an ev. So that one's for, for the us the good things are still happening there,

Imdra Bogle (39:31)

thank goodness, because we need some hope to hold on to for sure. Before we wrap up, what is in store for you in the fully charged show multiverse?

Dan Caesar (39:44)

That's a great question. I think I'm going back to the Nordic EV Summit in May.

Imdra Bogle (39:51)

Nice.

Dan Caesar (39:52)

Which I always like to because you need those little moments of hope. And obviously everyone knows the Norwegian market is is very well advanced. I'm intending to go to the Beijing Motor show at the end of April as well, where we see a lot of new product. Always a fascinating watch. Get to see Elliot Richards in person, which we don't do often enough. And then we've got everything electric north in Harrogate in May and everything electric west in Cheltenham in June, which is shaping up to be great events. Then I might collapse for a bit before getting on with the second half of the year.

Imdra Bogle (40:26)

We will leave it there. As ever, it is wonderful to catch up. And as for everyone listening or watching, thank you so much for doing so. If you could do us one tiny additional favor by liking subscribing, sharing with a friend or any of the above, we so appreciate it. It really does ensure that we can continue to grow and continue to talking about all the important bits and bobs in the automotive industry. But that's it. If you have been thank you for listening or watching.