From Gridlock In California to Car Free In Madrid - Ben Sullins' Big Move!

Summary

Everything Electric Podcast Summary
Episode: From Gridlock In California to Car Free In Madrid - Ben Sullins' Big Move!
Host: Robert Llewellyn
Guest: Ben Sullins
Release Date: August 4, 2025

---

1. Introduction to Ben Sullins and His Move to Madrid

Timestamp: [00:00]

Robert Llewellyn welcomes Ben Sullins, a long-time guest of the show, mathematician, and electric vehicle (EV) enthusiast. Ben shares his transition from San Diego, California, to Madrid, Spain, motivated by cultural appreciation, family considerations, and a desire to immerse his children in bilingual education.

Notable Quote:
Host: "Ben has been driving a Rivian for a long time... he's learning to speak Spanish and is enjoying his new life in Madrid."

---

2. The Iberian Blackout: Misconceptions and Real Causes

Timestamp: [03:02]

The conversation shifts to a significant event: a 24-hour blackout across the Iberian Peninsula, initially blamed on renewable energy sources. Ben provides clarity on the actual cause, attributing it to the failure of a gas peaker plant in southern Spain, which led to a voltage disruption affecting 50 million people.

Notable Quote:
Ben Sullins: "There was a gas plant, a gas peaker plant down in southern Spain that failed and that created a voltage disruption."

---

3. Renewables and Grid Reliability

Timestamp: [10:25]

Ben delves into the broader implications of the blackout, discussing the challenges of integrating high percentages of renewables into the grid. He emphasizes the necessity of incorporating large-scale battery storage to maintain grid inertia and enhance resilience against disruptions.

Notable Quote:
Ben Sullins: "They’re missing the problem, you know, the fragility problem. They're not creating the resiliency they need in order to make it through any of those disruptions."

---

4. Electric Vehicles in Spain vs. USA

Timestamp: [14:00]

Transitioning to personal experiences, Ben contrasts his life in suburban San Diego with urban Madrid. He highlights the minimal need for a car in Madrid due to efficient public transportation and compact city design, contrasting it with the American car-centric lifestyle.

Notable Quote:
Ben Sullins: "I don't need a car at all. I use the metro everywhere. It just seems easier and faster."

---

5. The EV Market Landscape: Companies and Competition

Timestamp: [23:01]

The discussion broadens to the global EV market, focusing on companies like Tesla, BYD, Rivian, and Lucid. Ben critiques US legislation impeding automakers and praises European startups for their innovation. He expresses optimism about Rivian and Lucid's future despite challenges.

Notable Quote:
Ben Sullins: "Rivian and Lucid are the exceptions... Rivian has cemented themselves as they're here to stay."

---

6. Autonomous Vehicles: Tesla's Robotaxi and the Future

Timestamp: [35:30]

Ben and Robert explore the current state and economic viability of autonomous vehicles, particularly Tesla's Robotaxi in Austin. They debate whether eliminating the driver role significantly reduces costs and whether consumers will trust self-driving technology enough to adopt it widely.

Notable Quote:
Ben Sullins: "Removing the driver doesn’t mean you can have a drop in the actual price a consumer pays by 80% or 50% at the most."

---

7. Power Grid Differences: Impact on EV Charging

Timestamp: [49:10]

A technical discussion ensues about the differences between European and American power grids. Ben explains how Europe’s 220V system allows for faster EV charging compared to the US’s 110V, making everyday charging more practical and efficient in Europe.

Notable Quote:
Ben Sullins: "In Europe, you could just plug your electric car into your garage and get 220 volts, which is almost enough for almost everybody."

---

8. Personal Anecdotes and Lifestyle Changes

Timestamp: [62:02]

Robert shares a story about a friend transitioning from a Range Rover to a Kia EV9, highlighting the shift from early adopters to mainstream users embracing electric vehicles for practicality and cost savings.

Notable Quote:
Ben Sullins: "I love the Kia EV9. I think it's phenomenal."

---

9. Future Outlook and Industry Insights

Timestamp: [65:35]

Ben speculates on the future of the EV market, considering the influx of European luxury brands into the electric space and the potential for American automakers to regain their innovative edge if legislative barriers are removed.

Notable Quote:
Ben Sullins: "Once the R2 really starts to hit the roads, their sales volumes will 5x what they are now."

---

10. Conclusion: Upcoming Events and Final Thoughts

Timestamp: [67:00]

Robert mentions the upcoming Everything Electric live event in Farnborough, UK, featuring live tests of Zaph Heap vehicles. Both express excitement about the future developments in electric vehicles and sustainable technology.

Notable Quote:
Host: "Please do welcome Ben Sullins to the Everything Electric podcast... We’ll see you there."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Cultural Shift: Moving from the US to Europe offers a different lifestyle with less dependence on personal vehicles, emphasizing community and sustainability.
• Renewable Energy Challenges: High integration of renewables requires robust backup systems like large-scale batteries to ensure grid stability.
• EV Market Dynamics: European EV startups are making significant strides, potentially outpacing some US companies hindered by unfavorable policies.
• Autonomous Technology: While promising, the economic and trust factors for widespread adoption of autonomous vehicles remain critical challenges.
• Infrastructure Differences: Europe's higher voltage power systems facilitate more efficient and practical EV charging compared to the US.

---

Listeners are encouraged to subscribe to the Everything Electric Show, Everything Electric Cars, and Everything Electric Tech on YouTube for more insightful discussions and updates on sustainable technology and electric vehicles.

Transcript

[Host]

Foreign hello, and welcome to another episode of the Everything Electric podcast. This week's guest, Ben Sullins. Amazing bloke, longtime friend of the show. He's been on the show many times. He's appeared at our live events in the USA and Canada. Longtime Tesla driver. Very interesting. He's a, you know, he's a mathematician. He just understands how things are made and how things work. Very, very clever. He's more recently been driving a Rivian for a long time. I'm not going to spoil what you find out in the the episode, but he has lived in San Diego for a lot, many years. He now lives in Madrid in Spain and he's having a very different experience of life. His family have moved there, his children are at school there. He's learning to speak Spanish. Already did speak quite a bit because San Diego is quite near Mexico. Don't know if you knew that, like next door. So there's a lot of Spanish stuff anyway going on in his life. But he's having an amazing time and it was just really interesting to catch up with him. I mean, for a start, one of the things we dealt with was the huge Spanish and Portuguese blackout. The entire peninsula, the entire Iberian Peninsula had a Blackout for about 24 hours a few months ago and immediately it was all blamed on renewables and solar. You will find out what really happened because they've now found out they know what happened. And it was just really lovely to catch up with him. He is hopefully going to be at our event in Farnborough in October and which would be fantastic to see him there. The other thing I want to mention that's going to be happening at our event in Farnborough in the UK in October is the tests, the live tests that we'll be carrying out of the Zaph Heap vehicles, the machines that the teams have made, made. We've already done it. So there's two, two, four teams have built four machines of bonkers abilities, all battery electric machines, but you won't think that was what it was. If you look at them, they just look absolutely barking mad. Really good, fun stuff. So it's going to be an amazing live test in front of a live audience. Colin Furze will be there. We'll be really having great fun doing all that every afternoon at the live event in Farnborough in. In October. All the dates and all the information about getting tickets, all the links are in the show notes of this episode. So hopefully, if you're in the uk, we will see you there. In the meantime, that's it. Please do welcome Ben Sullins to the Everything Electric podcast. Okay, so can you explain? So the last time. Well, the last time I saw you was in San Diego, but certainly last time I spoken to you, you were in the United States. You're now in Madrid, in Spain. I mean, can you just give me a little bit of it? Because as soon as you told me, I just went, oh, how fantastic. How so jealous. What a brilliant thing to do. But is what the reasoning was to go there as opposed to maybe Paris, Berlin, Rome, I don't know, somewhere.

[Ben Sullins]

Right. Well, my wife and I came here 10 years ago and fell in love with it. And one of my favorite American storytellers is Anthony Bourdain, who people listening don't know who. He has a great sort of travel, cooking type show. And he had something that stuck with me. He said, if you go to Spain for any amount of time and you do not fall in love with the country, something is wrong with you.

[Host]

Right.

[Ben Sullins]

And so we came here 10 years ago and just absolutely fell in love with the people and mostly I would say the culture and the way of life, you know. And here in Spain, it's very much like you're, you're, you're always about just spending as much time outside with friends and family, enjoying a meal, being in the park, just, just that's all you do. That's like your main motivation in life, you know, the siesta time, for example, is like sort of not a real thing in Madrid, like, you know, people, but restaurants and things do close like this city. And Madrid is like a, you know, big modern European city. It's not like some off in the country, little town. So the, the way of life here was something that we fell in love with and we started learning Spanish. Living in San Diego for 20 years almost, you know, Spanish is everywhere.

[Host]

Right.

[Ben Sullins]

We're on the border with Mexico.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

So we've been raising our kids bilingual, learning Spanish back home. My wife and I have been learning it and so we thought, well, what better way to really advance our learning and all that then just to go to the source of it. Right, let's go to. And then from here we can see the rest of Europe. We can travel, I can come see you, we can do all these fun things together. So that's kind of was the motivation, was the culture, the experience and one big thing. Maybe it's a little bit mushy, but to give our kids a sense of how big the world can be, how, you know, being in America, it's Very insular. Right. Everybody. You're sort of raised a certain way, and everybody believes in the same thing, which is work to live. You know what I mean? It's not like. Or, I'm sorry, live to work. Like, that's the only reason to be alive is to make money. And that is, if we had one national religion in the us that would be it for sure. And life doesn't have to be that way. And you would know far better than I. But from everyone I've talked to, Spain is one of those cultures or one of those European countries that absolutely embraces the, like, the life as a priority over making money and working as a priority. So we wanted to bring our kids here for some amount of time and learn the language and all that. So lots of reasons packed in there.

[Host]

But what age. You've got two. Two children. What age are they?

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, 5 years and 10 years.

[Host]

Right. Okay. So, I mean. And they're both at school then, or they have been both at school. Will be both at school in Spain.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, yeah. It'll be regular public school. But now a lot of schools here are bilingual, so they've been learning English, you know, back home. My older son is in a bilingual program there as well, so it's fully Spanish immersion. You know, half of his day is in Spanish back home.

[Host]

So he.

[Ben Sullins]

Here, it'll be the same thing.

[Host]

Isn't it annoying that. I mean, because I know this from personal experience when I was 12, spending a long time in Germany, I know I spoke German there simply because I've been told by people I've met, that I met then, and I can't speak German now. But you pick it up. You pick it up so fast. So your kids will be, I'm sure, very fluent, but, you know, very quickly.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, we think. I mean, maybe this is weird of us, but we think speaking multiple languages is a good thing.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

You know, and so. I know, yeah, it's very un American of us. Yeah, I know, but so we thought, like, that's a huge one, and so let's do that. And what better place to do it than here, you know?

[Host]

Yeah, no, really exciting. I mean, that. So the. Well, the one thing that you'll know about then from firsthand, because that was a story. It was a few weeks ago now from when we're recording this. But the. The massive. I mean, it was a pretty major incident. The massive blackout of Spain and Portugal was like. I sort of read it and I went, does that really happen? It just sounds that's too big. It must be one part of Spain or one part of Portugal. But it was pretty much the. Was it the whole country?

[Ben Sullins]

It just seemed it was the. The whole peninsula. Yeah. So including Portugal and I think parts of southern France or somewhere that touch, you know, kind of on the border there. Yeah. I did a video looking at it initially because you know, all the typical talking heads came out saying solar panels are to blame or Robert plugged his EV in or something and that just tripped. Yeah, whatever. So something happened and you know, like I said always, like a lot of these things is always for me has been, well, let's wait and see until we have actual facts.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

And which is not at all how the, that's not the incentives for how the news or media work in general. So a lot of people said that. I did a video looking at it going. Doesn't seem like that's the answer. And now we actually do have the answer that there was a gas plant, a gas peaker plant down in southern Spain that failed and that created a voltage disruption. But yeah, 50 million people without power, something like 10 hours. So it wasn't like a very prolonged, but a pretty shocking thing. I think some people did, you know, unfortunately perish because of their medical equipment didn't work or something like that. So it wasn't just an inconvenience. But of everyone, all my friends that are here, it's kind of funny because of all the places in the world to like be without power, Spain was the has to be. Everyone just went outside and just had a beer and sang and it was like totally. You know, you see the videos of it online, there was, you know, some people had a rougher go of it, but mostly it seemed pretty relaxed.

[Host]

But I mean what's fascinating is. And that's so often the case, isn't it? I mean the sudden spike in prices of electricity in the UK for a while was entirely blamed on all the silly wind, wind turbines and solar panels. And it was 110% due to the gas. Due to gas. It was after the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The price went off the stale. And so everything was to do with the price of gas. Well, that is nothing to do with renewables is to do with a gas peak of plant that didn't work. You know, which is.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, no, I mean it's always like people, people want to take the thing that they. So whatever the talking point is, whatever the narrative is and then use any shred of evidence over here and spin it into this story like I just posted a video an hour ago now, morning back home in San Diego. But it was, it's about. Basically there was a big black. Sorry. There were a bunch, bunch of Fires in 2007 in San Diego that led to. The reason the fires happened were because of the negligence of the utility companies not maintaining their power lines. And it's hot, it's dry, it's windy, all bad conditions for, you know, and then a power line gets knocked over and bang. Now, you know, a million acres burned, you know, some insane amount of land. And after that the utilities commission in California said because what they wanted to do was pass on the costs, the lawsuit that they got, they got convicted of, they wanted to pass those costs onto the ratepayers, the people paying electricity. And the CPUC said, no, you cannot do that. You have to pay it. The company, shareholders, owners of this company. And so they said, okay, fine, but now what we're going to do is we're going to throw on a charge later to people's bills after this payment's done, increasing the cost of delivering electricity because now guess what, we have to maintain those telephone poles or those, those power lines because otherwise we're going to get sued. So electricity prices rise and rise and rise and what do people do? They want to blame solar and whatever else, but really it has everything to do with maintaining the stuff which are supposed to do anyway.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

You know, and if, and if the company was really struggling, I think it would be fine. You could make arguments of like, but no, they're having record profits year on year and raising rates while saying, oh, it's this new requirement. You're like, no, none of that is true. So it's like the typical media thing. Right. So Spain had the blackout story was solar panels and whatever, didn't have enough grid inertia. I learned a lot about.

[Host]

Yes.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah. None of that was true. Now, to be fair to the people in Spain or the people that run the network here, they should have more batteries, is the answer from everybody I know. That's really why there was a, it was a peninsula wide problem, is because they do they have the most. You might know more than me. I think Spain's percentage of renewables on the grid is extremely high.

[Host]

Very high. I mean Portugal is even higher. So they're both very high.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, yeah. I don't know if it's the number one in Europe, but it's up there. The challenge I've learned from all my research here with this is that when you have that because of the intermittent nature of it and how the grid operates, like at a specific frequency. And if it, and if it deviates even for a split second, this is what happens. Yeah, so the way you, the way you solve that is you have giant batteries and they absorb that blow and they can create the inertia and keep it humming, you know, which makes all makes total sense. So, you know, if there's one criticism I think that's fair of what happened in Spain, it seems to be that, yes, they're pushing really hard into renewables. That's all good. We want to do that. There's probably laws that say you have to do that, but they, they're missing the problem, you know, the fragility problem. They're, they're not creating the resiliency they need in order to make it through any of those disruptions.

[Host]

I mean, that's certainly the, I mean, I know about this mainly from Australia, but it is that thing where, you know, if you just do some rudimentary mathematics about, you know, how much energy we use and how much we produce and the intermittency of, you know, it's, it's terrifying. You think, well, we need a 400,000 million petawatt hour battery so we can run the country for three months non stop on battery, you know, and you absolutely don't. And what they've learned in Australia quite a few years ago now is sometimes they would realize after the event that they would have had a power cut, but the batteries kicked in so fast it didn't even register as a problem. So. And then they go, why did the battery kick in? And they go, I don't know. Let's have a look. Oh, that power station failed. Exactly the same situation that happened in Spain happened in, happened in South Australia and Victoria. I don't know, we're talking maybe six, seven years ago, I remember, and they really didn't know about it until they looked at it afterwards. There was no problem at all. There was no, you know, the battery coat that was the first huge Tesla battery. And, but it doesn't need to be that big because what it's doing is it's got to deliver an enormous amount of power quite quickly. But it doesn't have to do it for 10 hours, has to do it for one hour, two hours maybe at the most. You know, which they're all.

[Ben Sullins]

Exactly. Yeah. It's a part of the whole system. Right. And it's a key part, but it's not the only part.

[Host]

No, no.

[Ben Sullins]

So, you know, yeah, I'm with you. I think that. So it looks like in Spain, that's sort of what happened was they need more batteries, you know, now it wasn't. Hadn't the, the, the reason that there was a blackout had nothing to do with renewables at all.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

But definitely because they don't have enough battery or backup systems like this. It seems like that, you know, made it worse.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

So.

[Host]

Yeah. So now, because I, I first came across you very much connected with Tesla, very much connected with electric cars. And now, I mean, if you're in the mid. Have you got a car in Madrid?

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, no, I, I do not. No, I do not. It feels insane. Yeah. I mean, so I went from suburban, you know, large home, cul de sac, which is like at the end of a street where there's no, you know, and then, you know, swimming pool. Like all the stuff that you would imagine, like typical American type setup, two cars, all this great stuff. Sold the cars. And now we're living here in the middle of the city with no, I mean, public transportation. We use it endless. Every day almost. So I haven't taken a bus yet. I just take the metro everywhere. It just seems easier and faster. But yeah, we walk. I mean, but I mean, you would know, right? Like, Europe is seemingly designed correctly.

[Host]

Yeah. Well, not all of it, but bits of it are Madrid. Madrid is. Yeah. It's amazing.

[Ben Sullins]

So, like, where I live in the city center, you know, downstairs. Okay. On my block are four grocery stores. Right, right. And a pharmacy and a fruit store and probably six restaurants. Just so. I mean, even like, I needed a new TV for that. So there's an appliance store across the street. I just go there, get the tv. So, like, I don't need a car at all. I do play golf, which is the only time where I have to like, I need a car because it's just not a train that goes to the golf station or I'm sorry, not a train station at the golf course. But point being. So, yeah, so I don't need one. I am going on a road trip soon, though, and I'm probably going to rent one.

[Host]

Right.

[Ben Sullins]

I've had actually a hard time finding electric options. It's kind of weird. I thought they would be plentiful. But car rental places, it's not really. Like, I have to click 15 times to find the electric cars. And it's like just a Fiat 500E is all they have. That's like, basically it, you know, it is.

[Host]

That is strange because that is not universal. I think it would Depend which country you're in. In. In. In Europe. But I mean, certainly, for instance, in Norway, you'd have to do exactly the same thing to try and find a gas car.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, right.

[Host]

Really difficult. It's all electric. But. And in Australia, I mean, I've rented electric cars there without any hassle. The first two or three that come up, one would be a super economic economy, little petrol car.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah.

[Host]

And the next one is a Tesla Model 3. You know, it's like, oh, there you go, I'll have that, you know, whatever. But the. But that is so interesting, isn't it? Because that whole, like the movement in Paris, if you're aware of what's been going on in Paris, but it's genuinely extraordinary. So I lived in Paris quite a lot, you know, many years ago when I was young, and it was a terrifying. And I cycled a lot in London and cycling in London was pretty challenging. Cycling in Paris was lethal. It was really terrifying because the drive, it was so many cars and it was so congested and they were such crazy drivers. It was just terrifying on a bicycle. So I kind of gave up. You go to Paris now, it's mainly bicycles, it's mainly walking. The people who live on a particular street will have a referendum, if you like, and they go, no, we don't want cars on the street anymore. So they close it. So it's like locally decided that all the shops that said if we stop cars, we'll lose all the business are doing so much more business than they ever did with their headcar.

[Ben Sullins]

Right.

[Host]

All those things. So the. And I love the fact that I'm sure there's lots of Parisians, I'm sure will correct me on this, but the mayor of Paris was really having a lot of kickback from the press, from the car industry, from the oil industry, from the all manner of people before the election. So she put in place a lot of this, the restrictions on cars in the middle of Paris. And there was a general local election for the mayor and she won by a much bigger majority the second time. Because actually, if you live in Paris and you walk out of your door and it smells quite nice and it's quiet and you can. And your kids are safe, it's a very different experience, you know, And I was there last year for the first time in years and I could not believe my eyes, you know, the fabulous Antonore. A road I remember cycling down that was just living hell on a bicycle. There's no cars on it, you know, it's. Yeah, it's just bikes and people walking and it's quiet and you can hear birdsong. It's just.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah. You know, that's amazing. It reminds me, I've been to the Netherlands once and you know that's like their main mode of transportation, right?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

You don't need a bike lane, you need a car lane because everybody's on.

[Host]

Bike is on the bikes.

[Ben Sullins]

The car has to have a special lane because that's, it's rare to have a car. Yeah, no, yeah, I love that. Biking in Madrid. I don't. It doesn't seem to be a super common thing.

[Host]

I don't see it.

[Ben Sullins]

But where, where I'm at, the roads are pretty small and narrow. So I mean, I guess I'm less worried, like the cars aren't going very fast, you know what I mean? A couple, there's a couple big streets that kind of go through the city, but otherwise it's just small little. So, yeah, a bike is a good idea for some of the longer things. I've quickly adjusted to this Madreo lifestyle where like if it's more than a 10 minutes walk, I'm just not going.

[Host]

Right.

[Ben Sullins]

I just, I cannot, cannot be by. Are you kidding me? Something that's that far? No, there's had to be one closer. There has to be. Whatever it is, there has to be one closer. So it's, it's been a really big adjustment these past, you know, six, seven weeks.

[Host]

But then where you've been living in the US is I'm, you know, I've been there. It's quite, it can be quite warm in summer. I mean, what. Have you had any, like, because I know Spain has had a lot of really high temperatures recently. Has it been very hot there? Or you have you.

[Ben Sullins]

It's been. The first few weeks were basically you stayed inside. Yeah, I mean, I grew up in Phoenix, Arizona where it regularly reaches 110 degrees. So what is that, like 40 Celsius or something like that? Yeah, yeah. Do you guys have Celsius?

[Host]

Yeah, we do Celsius here.

[Ben Sullins]

Celsius. Okay. Yeah. So, so for here, my first few weeks were in the high 30s.

[Host]

Right.

[Ben Sullins]

I think it may have hit 40, 41, one or two of the days. So it was very, very hot. So back for Americans listening, that's like 105, 107 degrees somewhere around there. But yeah, it was, it was very hot. But the past few weeks have been fantastic. We actually, we tried to escape the heat. We went down south for, for a week down to Malaga. Loved it. Made us miss San Diego even more because, you know, it's like a bit of, we've got some, we've just got some of the best beaches, waves to surf and the Mexican food is as, it's real Mexican, it's right there. So yeah, so that. And then you know, we're going on this road trip up to the north, up to San Sebastian in the Basque country and yeah, that's where we're going to try to see some more of that too. And hopefully it's a little bit cooler but it hasn't been too bad. I mean there's so much shade and so much trees. Like so I mean by, like they designed the city perfectly well. Yeah. I mean you can totally get by. Even when it's 40 degrees Celsius out, it's, it's not, you know, that bad.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

You know, unless you have to be working or doing something physical, you're just hanging out. It's not bad. I don't think.

[Host]

Yeah, that's always, I always remember that the first time I was in Australia and it was very high temperatures, it was in the 40s and we were driving in an old but an air conditioned car which just about the air conditioning just about worked and we had to stop like in a country lane on where there was roadworks and there was guys digging holes in the road. And I suddenly went, oh yeah, it's quite nice if you're in an air conditioned car.

[Ben Sullins]

Right.

[Host]

If you're digging a hole in the road. And they weren't they no shade, there was no trees around. I mean, God, it's just. That is tough.

[Ben Sullins]

Brutal.

[Host]

It's very brutal. But I was going to say one of the things I thought was, you know, you lived by the sea for many years and now you're living in a city that I mean it's not the furthest city from the sea in Europe, but it's pretty close. A long way to the sea, isn't it? To the coast?

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, it's about I think a four hour drive or more or less, you know, either way. So yeah, it's, it's not close at all. That's why that's probably the one big thing we miss from back home. That and spicy food which does this.

[Host]

Right.

[Ben Sullins]

Just I think there's a law against it in. Honestly, I think Spain has a law against spicy food.

[Host]

I don't know if you, I'm sure you, you've probably done this but one, we had very good friends that lived in Madrid for a long time and we went to visit them. They were actually Australians, but they were living. They lived in Madrid for a few years. And we went out on, you know, a ramp. A ramp. I don't even know what you call it. I've forgotten all the words. But in the evening we'd go to one place and eat a little bit of stuff and have a drink. Yeah, Tapas, tapa. So we do that. The thing I clearly remember is we went to one where they made lovely fried potatoes and a little egg thing. And that was run by communists. And it had communist hammer and sickle flags. It had clinches.

[Ben Sullins]

Wow.

[Host]

You know, all about like, like honest.

[Ben Sullins]

To God, proper, full on Communist party. Not like a pejorative, like an actual.

[Host]

They were members and active members. But then you walked like 200 meters around the corner and it was fish and chips, it was battered fish and, you know, potato fries. And that was run by actual fascists. So people who supported Franco. And you go. And I went, oh, that's quite extreme. You know, I'm trying to think this is probably 35 years ago, so maybe that's faded out now. But I mean, those places were crowded with a wide variety of young people who clearly didn't give a flying boot about anything.

[Ben Sullins]

They don't care at all if the fish is good.

[Host]

I'll eat the fascist fish.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, it's a heart, you know, I mean, that gets. In the broader point there is the art versus the artist kind of discussion, which I know a lot of people have struggled with with Tesla and Elon Musk. You know what I mean? It's one of those things, like, I still look at it like, I think Tesla makes great products, amazing cars. Objectively, I do think that. I mean, I've been in a lot of BYD's since I've been here and Ubers and things, and I am completely blown away. I thought BYDs were just like cheap little Toyotas.

[Host]

No, no.

[Ben Sullins]

And maybe they used to be. I don't know.

[Host]

They did used to be. Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

But now, I mean, the seal, I ride a lot in and I'm just like, this thing is phenomenal. And how much does this. And then what's the new one? The cheap one? The dolphin surf.

[Host]

Dolphin surf? Yes.

[Ben Sullins]

The tiny little guy.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

I mean, if we end up staying here long term, I'd probably buy one. I'm. What's like €10, €11,000 or something? I mean, it's, it's.

[Host]

We tested it a few weeks ago. Really good little car. I mean, really?

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, but, but Separating those two. Right. I mean, it's toug. Yeah. Back home, I mean, when Elon was doing the. I guess he's not doing as much political stuff anymore. I really don't follow him very much. Deleted my. My ex. My Twitter account in 2020 or 2019. I mean, years before any of this stuff happened. But I've always been a fan of their products, you know, I mean, their products really good. Maybe the point of the BYD thing was there that like the Tesla product line in terms of the cars do seem a bit aging right now. A little bit long in the tooth. Like, there's really not much. I know they just did a Model Y refresh and a Model X, but I mean, it's the same. I mean. Yeah, yeah. You know, they tend to do that. They do a refresh and I go, it costs the same and it goes just as far. Okay, sure. I guess it's better. I don't know. It doesn't seem that big of a difference, you know, which is actually a good. A good case for buying a used one. Right. Because if the new one is basically the same as the used one and you'll save 40% on it.

[Host]

Someone we know here who's bought a Model S that are done. I wish I could because the statistics are amazing. I think it's done about 70,000 miles. It cost them £5,000, which is about 8, $9,000. Yeah, it's in really good condition. They had to have what, something replaced. Not the battery. I mean, the battery is absolutely fine. I can't remember what it was. Maybe some steering stuff which cost a couple of thousand pounds. They've now got this car with 250 with. And it's old enough to have free supercharging.

[Ben Sullins]

Oh, wow.

[Host]

Yeah. And he just cannot believe it that he keeps going to supercharger. He doesn't charge it at home. Stupid waste of money. Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

Why would you.

[Host]

He only goes to supercharger, charges it there. And that when you think, well, that's incredible that that's possible. We now know for certain those, you know, everyone talked about the batteries years ago. That battery will outlast the car by probably 100,000 miles.

[Ben Sullins]

You know, I mean, no doubt. I mean, I've never had it. And you know, in the cases when you do see people having to replace them, it seems there's sort of a specific reason why something happened or something. Yeah, yeah. I mean, which, you know, when you make a million of anything, you're going to have some error rate, you know, I Mean that's why I worked in big data and tech for my whole career. And that was the whole thing. Right. When you're, when you're Google and you have 10 million hard drives to index the Internet, even a 0.005% error rate means you're going to have some of these hard drives failing. So you have to build a system that. So it's the same kind of thing. Right. Like when you make enough of a thing you're going to have flaws ahead. So if it was a real problem, I think it would be, you know, more mainstream and less like on the fringe. You know, the Daily Mail type people that are talking about it or whatever.

[Host]

Yeah. Why does the whole world know about the Daily Mail? I grew up.

[Ben Sullins]

That's right. I always get confused because it's like I know I ask you and Dan all the time, I'm like hey, so is this because there's like the Telegraph.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

And the Daily Mail. And I'm like, which one of these is the more like kind of non truth.

[Host]

There was a time when the Telegraph was the voice of you know, the majority centrist conservative, you know.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah.

[Host]

And it's very often very well written. They have very good journalists. It's sort of become a little bit more reactionary and I don't.

[Ben Sullins]

And the Guardian too. The Guardian is that a British Guardian.

[Host]

Would be as you would be by British standards, sort of center left but definitely left wing.

[Ben Sullins]

Okay. Yeah. But that's another pro.

[Host]

The Labour Party. It's the only newspaper that is. All the other papers are radically. They're either oh really center right or fanatically screaming.

[Ben Sullins]

Oh my gosh. The media is such a, such a weird.

[Host]

Well, I mean our press is mainly owned by multi billionaires who don't live in the UK and don't pay tax. So that's just one of those things that's just happened, you know.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

But tell the. What, what is the. I mean just sticking with Tesla but in Spain because we've driven around Spain in a Tesla their supercharger network that was absolutely fine. We used it without any trouble. But how. What's the take up like in Spain? I can't really remember. I know I saw some number of Teslas. Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

It's pretty small.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

I'll tell you what, I see a lot of EVs roaming around. Not a lot. Not a lot of Tesla. And I mean now granted I come from a city that has a tremendous like you know, every other car is a Tesla basically back in San Diego So, so my perception is a little bit maybe different, but I don't see. In fact, when I see one now, it sort of. It stands out to me.

[Host]

Right.

[Ben Sullins]

You know, I'm sort of like, oh, whoa, look. Yeah. Whereas if you ask me for like a Renault or something, it's like, no, that's every other car. Or, you know, a Fiat or something like these European brands. That's. That's. Yeah. But it is really interesting seeing how many evs there are.

[Host]

All right.

[Ben Sullins]

Because that's why, especially ones that I've never even heard of, you know, companies where I'm like, what is like, what was the. What was one I was looking at? Airway. I. Something. I'm like, oh, Huawei.

[Host]

Yes. Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

Who are.

[Host]

Phone company. So that is like the Apple car.

[Ben Sullins]

They actually like, what is this? Like. Yeah, I'm going, this is. I mean, on one hand I'm like, wow, it's brilliant. On the other hand, it just makes me mad about, you know, the thing looking at the, the, you know, the latest legislation in the US trying to, to wreck the transitioned. Is the, the way I see that whole thing with cutting the EV credits, cutting the solar credits and all these things in the us, all it's going to do is hurt the US Automakers. Yes. That's all it's going to do. If you go anywhere else in the world, EVs are dominant and they are just. And so, you know, and there's so many big places that don't make cars or make very little cars, so they import everything, so they don't care.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

They're not going to put a tariff on something that they. You have to import, you know, so, so I look at that and I go, that, that makes me frustrated because of how, how much potential there is. The US auto, automotive industry is phenomenal.

[Host]

Yes.

[Ben Sullins]

These guys are tremendous at doing what they do and the legislation they're trying to hold them back is. Is kind of how I see it. So. And, and that has been apparent to me walking around here just like all these car companies that don't even exist in the US and they're making these great products. I mean. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, man, we need more of this. We need more innovation. Because usually that's the one thing I would hold my hat on, you know, is that America's, if we're good at one thing, it's innovating.

[Host]

Innovating, absolutely.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah. Yeah. We may not. We're not going to beat China and the cost of manufacturing a thing, you.

[Host]

Know, Come up with it in the first place. And it'll be, I mean, well, Tesla is such a good example of that, but there's plenty of other ones where that.

[Ben Sullins]

Right.

[Host]

And historically an enormous history of that. That.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah.

[Host]

Incredible innovation in the United States. Extraordinary.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah. So that to me is when I, when I look around here, that's the biggest kind of aha moment is just like, man, it makes me angry because I'm like, God, how much better could these cars be that we have if we didn't have these politicians trying to get in the way.

[Host]

Yes. And I mean, I don't know if you saw Jim Farley, CEO of Ford Ford, at a sort of innovation event somewhere in, Somewhere famous in America. And I can't remember where it was, but I mean, his. I, I've interviewed him and he was, he's remarkably honest for a. Yeah. You know, a multinational corporation CEO. He's like, yeah. They had to say. And it was really interesting. One of the things, when I talked to him, one of the things that he spoke about Chinese EVs being 10 years ahead of anything in America and all that stuff and their battery technology, the innovation around the software, you know, and they, they, he and I think their CTO bought two.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah.

[Host]

Chinese imported them personally.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah.

[Host]

And then drove them and then to. Probably told them to bits and had a look how they were made, whatever. But then he also said. So he said all that. And then he also said he went to their skunk works in Los Angeles and went around that. And that was amazing. And he wasn't even allowed in, but they let him in. And when after I didn't, I almost didn't notice him talking about that. I was just thinking, there's no way they're going to let him say the stuff about Chinese cars. So his people got in touch and said, would you mind removing the bit about the skunk works, because we don't even acknowledge it exists. Everything else is fine. But he has been very vocal about how the tariffs are making the lives of the people who run big car companies.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah.

[Host]

Increasingly difficult, if not impossible.

[Ben Sullins]

You know, I mean, and it's, it's. We only have to point back to Trump's last administration for data on this. I mean, this is not like science fiction here. We're not making things up. And coming up with this isn't economic theory. Right. Look back to. Because in the first Trump administration, he put, I believe it was a 25% tariff on Chinese made aluminum and steel.

[Host]

Right.

[Ben Sullins]

And that same year, GM, I think, laid off over 14,000 people and closed five factories because of that. And then Ford, I believe, lost over a billion dollars in revenue or profit, I believe, because of the tariffs. And it's not like they were mincing words. They said because of this, this is what happened. And so, I mean. And that was only, what, five years ago or something. Whenever that. Six years ago. So you're looking at it going, guys, this isn't. Yeah, we don't have to look too hard here. You know, a guy like me that just looks at numbers, it doesn't think too hard and just. I could just point at the numbers and go, look what they say.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

And so, yeah, it's really frustrating. And now the biggest deal with that stuff, I believe, is in fact, because there was, you know, Trump made a deal with. With the uk, I believe, about importing cars.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

And it was an incredibly low tariff. I forget, like 10, 15% or something like that. Meanwhile, the US automakers, which import steel and aluminum from all these other places do not get any reprieve. And so they're looking at it going, guys, you know, you're tariffing the US companies more than you are the UK ones.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

And now, now there's a. Now there's the Japan deal. I haven't looked at it, it just happened. But it's same deal, you know. So I completely get this beef that the US Auto industry has with the administration going, what the hell? Like, I thought the idea was to help us. And look at what you're doing. You're killing. No more taxes or tariffs on them. But we still have to deal with it because we, you know, there's one company in Mexico that attaches the seats or something. It's like, like. And by the way, this supply chain going from US, Canada, Mexico has been alive for 70 years. It's not new. So that to me, soon you'll be able to.

[Host]

You might be able to buy an Aston Martin cheaper than an F150.

[Ben Sullins]

Yes, I will. I will take that deal. I will take it.

[Host]

I think it'll do very well.

[Ben Sullins]

I would. Yeah, I want the Rolls Royce Specter or whatever. Right.

[Host]

But I mean, well, I've got to take. I've just got. Because you. I've seen a video done recently about the robo taxi and I'd like to talk about that, but I've just got to tell you, I went into the showroom. There's one of the showrooms in London when the robo taxi was first launched, and they had one in the showroom. And I had a look at it and they'd invited me to go along and it was all fun and I looked at it and kind of, you know, I don't, I, I've, I'm trying to remain completely neutral on the concept of self driving cars, the whole notion of it. But when I saw that car just went. If that had a steering wheel and it was the, it was The Tesla Model 2.

[Ben Sullins]

The $25,000.

[Host]

$25,000. You know, maybe three seater or maybe, you know, compact, whatever. It's a compact car. It would be amazing and everybody would be going bananas about it and the order books would be exploding. You know, they would be so popular and you've already got the charging network and it's a, it's a car, it only needs to do a couple hundred miles. It doesn't need long range because you can charge it so quickly and so easily, all that stuff. But let's put that to one side because you, I mean, you've got an interesting take on it. So just for the people who don't know, the Robo taxi is on the road available for hire in Austin, is that correct? Is that, is that the only place it is currently?

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, yeah, there's a small area in Austin and you know, Elon says a lot of things on earnings calls, but you know, for now that's the reality. It does exist with a safety driver in the front seat.

[Host]

So does it have a steering wheel now?

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, yeah. So the Robo taxi, the actual robotaxi is just a model Y. It's not actually a different car.

[Host]

It's not a different car. Right.

[Ben Sullins]

So the car I saw was Cyber Cab or whatever, you know, thing that they're promising in the future, which I do think that would be really cool again. Yeah, add a steering wheel. It doesn't have a charging port. The new. I'm like, just give me a damn charging port. Like that seems silly.

[Host]

How'd you charge it if it doesn't have a charging?

[Ben Sullins]

It's wireless charging. Wireless charging. Because it's completely automated. Right. So it'll like have a thing, place.

[Host]

To park and it will just charge.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, okay. But what actually exists is a model Y's that are designated as robo taxis and you can hail them with a Tesla app and then get in one. But there is a Tesla safety. I don't know, driver, I guess there's.

[Host]

A physical human being in.

[Ben Sullins]

There's a human being in the. Not in the driver's seat though, in the passenger seat.

[Host]

Right.

[Ben Sullins]

And they can Push a button if things are going wrong. And things are going wrong. You know that it's very early days of that. But the video that I did on it, my take, because I'm a numbers guy, was more asking the question or trying to explore the idea of do the economics of a robotaxi like this work?

[Host]

Right.

[Ben Sullins]

I think I could have done a better job diving deeper, but Uber and these companies don't actually release a ton of data about, like, the cost of the driver and commercial insurance costs and the cost of the vehicles. You know, over here, I've noticed that a lot of the Ubers are owned by Uber themselves and the people driving them are sort of like renting them for the week or something like that. So quite different than you owning your own car and driving it out. Right. So the net of it is though, that just because you remove the driver from the equation doesn't mean that you can have a drop in the actual price a consumer pays by 80% or.

[Host]

Right.

[Ben Sullins]

Like the most you could theoretically get is maybe a 50% reduction in price, which is significant.

[Host]

It is a 5 or a 1. 5. A 5. 5, 050. That's a, that's a difference.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, but, but that is, that is assuming that, like, the car costs $0 to Tesla, meaning a customer provides a car.

[Host]

Right.

[Ben Sullins]

Because there's capital costs associated with making the thing. Right now Tesla owns all of them.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

So if they're going to continue on that there is, even though they obviously pay less for it than the consumer, there is a cost associated with the vehicle making it. Then you have to deal with maintenance, it will need tires, it will need, you know, cleaning, repairs. If it gets into an accident, or let's say someone pukes in the back of it because they're drunk. You know, whatever. These things happen. There's real life meets theoretical. So the point is that right now, all of those things, when you take out the driver, it's not just the person moving the wheel and pushing the pedals, there's a lot more that goes into what that cost absorbs. And so you're not going to actually recoup all of the cost of having a driver. You're going to have to add back in all these other things that the driver currently does. So then that hurts the equation even more. And so if we look at the economics of it, I mean, it's sort of best guess, but I think you could probably knock off, realistically, 30% of what you currently pay. So that's good. That's still a Lot cheaper. But then you have to ask the question about do people trust it and will they? Is that a significant enough drop in price for them to go, oh, well, I'm definitely doing that one.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

You know, if you're going to take a taxi and it's, you know, $20 and you're going to take an Uber and it's $21, but you know, the Uber is going to be a much better experience. Would you pay for that? Yeah, probably. It's close enough. Right. So this is where I think you get into the behavioral, economic side of it, which to me is one of the most fascinating like areas to study is how we as people make decisions based on, on money and prices and things. And so that, that was basically the question is right now it doesn't seem like to me anyways, my opinion as a wannabe economist would be that we don't have enough room there to make a significant price reduction. That people would just overwhelmingly adopt it.

[Host]

Right, right.

[Ben Sullins]

That people do not trust self driving cars. From all the survey data I've seen, it'll be a long time until they do. And if, but if the price reduction was like 90%, I think you could get there a lot quicker. Yeah, so that's, that's my, that's what I'm very interested in, to see how this goes. Not like whether or not a car can do this. I mean I saw a video of you, I don't know, 15 years ago at Heathrow taking one from the car park over to the thing.

[Host]

Right.

[Ben Sullins]

The little laser guy. I mean, so these have existed in some, some fashion. Will people trust it and will it be cheap enough for them to choose it? I think those are the biggest questions in my mind.

[Host]

Yeah, I mean, more recent than that. I mean that was another episode we did which, and I was blown away by it was a Nissan, Nissan Leaf, fully autonomous on busy London streets. Buses, kids crossing the road, bicycles, pets, you know, everything you could throw at it. And then, you know, British roundabouts, fairly challenging even for British people. And then, and then like a highway. And it did all that in, in about, you know, 15, 20 mile drive and then came back to the base and they immediately plugged it in. And I went, we haven't been that far. Even for an old Nissan Leaf. We haven't been that far. But what was in the back, and this is what will have changed, I know, was what looked to me like five or six old school desktop computers. The big box that sat under your desk and hummed.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah.

[Host]

The range on The Nissan Leaf was reduced by about 45 miles, which didn't have that much range. So it used an enormous amount of energy for all this. The computing now, that has obviously shrunk down phenomenally since.

[Ben Sullins]

Yes, that will be your phone size.

[Host]

Yes, exactly. But I mean. But I have to say it was extraordinarily aware of its surroundings, including, you know, I had a. It was for press people, so they had a screen and that was highlighting all the potential hazards.

[Ben Sullins]

Right.

[Host]

Well, one of them was going like that was flickering. And I went, I can't see anything. You know, as a drive, if I was driving, right, there's nothing there. And then I went, oh, there's a kid running along and his mum is waving. So. And I went, that is. And it was a long way away, so I could say a child of about five, sort of untethered child, basically. And it was fine. It was on the sidewalk. It wasn't going to do anything. I've just used the word sidewalk without thinking pavement.

[Ben Sullins]

Oh. Oh, that's what we call. There we go.

[Host]

I've spent too much time in America anyway. All that aside, I still found it fairly terrifying. And there was a driver with me. I mean, he didn't touch the steering wheel. It was really impressive. But that, I mean, what about. Have you been in a Waymo in San Francisco? I mean, I've met a few people who have, and they. They seem to be very confident about those. And they were very.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, yeah, I've. I have a lot of friends that have. I mean, people just. I'm from Arizona, so that's where they sort of first launched in Chandler.

[Host]

Oh, that's right.

[Ben Sullins]

And, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's. It seems to be very good. And to me, that's where it's interesting because you look at the data and you go, oh, okay. So it seems like to me, based on my assessment, that the technology is. Is approaching, like, a confidence level that I think we can agree it's safe. You know, granted, there's a lot that comes along with launching a new city. It's not like you just flip it on. I feel like there was this idea years ago that, you know, a Tesla Model S From 2016, in 2019, you'd get a software update and bang, it would just work anywhere. You could drop it in Berlin or you could drop it in Beijing and it would just be fine. It would figure it all out. No, that's never. No, no, no, no. I think everything is very regional and it's going to be very Specific. Right. Because how the rules of the road work in different countries. Like you said, roundabouts are a good example. You know, we don't have a lot of them in the US and as I'm learning here in Spain, how you navigate them varies. Like we have roundabouts here with stoplights in them.

[Host]

Yes.

[Ben Sullins]

Okay, that's fast. You know, there's roads here that if you want to turn left first you have to like exit the road you're on to the right.

[Host]

Yes.

[Ben Sullins]

And you have to go in this little half circle and then stop and then eventually you'll be able to go to the left.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

So like if you're, you know, your car is, you know, learned all how to drive in California, that would be completely foreign as to what the hell is what. None of that makes sense.

[Host]

Right.

[Ben Sullins]

So I think that it's going to be a long road. I think along the way though, there's a huge opportunity for, for advancements in safety and, and even, even just cost. I mean like the best example probably is that thing in Heathrow that takes you from.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

The car park over to the terminal. Yeah. Because you don't necessarily need the most advanced technology in the world to say have like a little bus that drives around university or something. I mean that can be pre programmed. It can have all the sensors in the world, I mean and it can run 24 hours a day, whatever. So I think that there's a lot of fruit that we'll be able to bear along the way. But getting to that full blown thing I think is far off. But the bigger question to me isn't a technical one, it's a human one.

[Host]

Yes.

[Ben Sullins]

Will it be cheap enough and will people trust that's the bottom line? Because if we don't, then it doesn't matter how good the piece of technology is, you know what I mean?

[Host]

But I mean it's also quite interesting because I just remembered that like one of the really passionate TED talks I saw probably 10 years ago, I think was a German guy, but he had very good friend of his was killed by a drunk driver or what, you know, like it was definitely a serious motor accident caused by human error, not technical failure. And he was so upset about it that he was one of the initial people that wanted to devise autonomous driving because it was safer. So that was the drive. It's safer that human beings fail and we make mistakes and we screw up and we have crashes. But then it sort of transmogrified, if you like, over the years into. We don't need to have any people that we have to pay. Yeah, yeah, that seems to be the motivation. Let's get rid of the people. Which seems to be quite a popular concept in Silicon Valley and has become even more toxic in the last few years. But, you know that. Yeah, and in a sense I'd quite. I mean, I, I quite like getting in a taxi with someone. I have a chat with them, you know, sometimes they tell me to shut up, but, you know, often you'll have a little conversation with them.

[Ben Sullins]

Pass. Yeah, I practice my Spanish with all.

[Host]

Yeah, that's good.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it.

[Host]

But, yeah, so I don't. I mean, I'm not sure where that sits now. Like the, you know, what's the motivation? The motivation? Because if it's safety, and I believe, you know, a million completely autonomous cars would probably be safer over a thousand miles than a million human beings. One of them is going to drive off a cliff or drive into a kid or something.

[Ben Sullins]

Yep.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

But I think, you know, that goes back to the first thing we talked about. You know, if there's one thing in the US that we all believe in, it's making money.

[Host]

Yes.

[Ben Sullins]

And so I think, like, anything that, like all progress must be in the, in the pursuit of greater wealth in the us like, if you're doing something not to say this is right. I'm not saying I believe that, I'm just saying.

[Host]

But that is how it is. It's also not altogether wrong because you can have tremendous technological advances and success because the motivation is pulling you forward because you can make lots of money. I mean. Yeah, I think, I mean, if you.

[Ben Sullins]

Look at renewables and a big. To me, whenever I talk to somebody about climate change or anything like that, it's always, to me, I try to frame it in that light.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

Of like, yeah, not sure it'll save the planet, carbon emissions, blah, blah, blah. Yes, we all know that. But I'm not going to beat that dead horse. We're already, we already, we've talked, we've talked through that. The bigger thing is you're going to save money and you're going to have less blackouts, you know, because that is something that's more. I think when you have these big difficult concepts like a climate change or one of these things, if you can bring it home to people in a way that's relatable, all of a sudden the conversation just shifts and everyone wants to, you know, breathe cleaner air and have better water and things like that, you know, so to Me, I think that there is some good in that. You know, the, the thought of just making money to be greedy isn't really the, the full story. Right. It's like you make more money, but along the way you can do it in ways that are, that have many other benefits as well.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is. Yeah, it is. I mean, I think you're right that the, that I initially started wanting to explore this and talk about this topic of like for instance, electric ground transport from the point of view of the technology. But it quite, quite rapidly changed to, oh, this is. The problems now with electric vehicles are, I would say, entirely psychological. They're not, they're not technological. The technology works. It's like, it's not even that interesting. You know, you drive along and when you need to put some more electricity in your battery, you stop and you charge it. What is there to worry about?

[Ben Sullins]

Right.

[Host]

We've just driven, we drove down to Italy a few weeks ago. The charging, I can't tell you how low it came in. The list of worries, anxieties and priorities. Where's the nearest restroom to use an American? That's number one. That's the alarm. I'm an old man, I need to get out. The second was, where can I get a coffee? I. A baguette? What about. Are you going to buy some cheese for the people we're going to see, you know, and then let's, let's stop for lunch. Retired, you know. Oh, charging, you know, it's like, yeah, whatever. It's like.

[Ben Sullins]

I'm still wondering one thing, that that's so the, the electric grid here is different than the US in a lot of ways. But one key way is the voltage right here. You have 220v right. As the standard like all around the room. And me and I was trying to sort out why that is. Why in the US do we only have 110 or 120 and my guess, and you know, correct me if I'm wrong or feel free to slap me in the comments or something, but it seems like Edison, I believe was the one that created the whole like electricity in your house type system.

[Host]

Yes.

[Ben Sullins]

Like the light bulb and all that stuff. So we're talking, and I don't think Europe had it at the time.

[Host]

No, no, America certainly had that.

[Ben Sullins]

Right.

[Host]

Had the beginnings of a power grid way before anyone else way.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah. So I'm guessing that my thought is that because the U.S. sort of created this first, they did it in a, in a more an immature way. Immature in the sense of like they just didn't think that they would need a higher voltage.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

And then you come over here. So when I think about it over here, I'm like, well, I could just plug, like if I could just plug my, my, my electric car into my garage.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

And get 220. I don't know how many amps you.

[Host]

Get here, but 13, usually 30. In the UK it's 13amps, but, but.

[Ben Sullins]

That right there would almost be enough for almost everybody. Well, especially in Europe when you don't drive, you know, 500 miles a week.

[Host]

I mean that, because. I don't know. All I know is the way I explain it to people is if you plug it in next to your toaster or your kettle, it's adding about five miles an hour.

[Ben Sullins]

Okay.

[Host]

In range.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah.

[Host]

So that's why I'm so late. Say 8 km, something like that.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah.

[Host]

If, and then, and then if you use a 7 kilowatt charger like we've got here, then that's about 30 miles. And if you use 22 kilowatts, about 50 miles an hour. Yeah. That's how to step up. But what I don't know is what 110 gives you. So if you plug into a three pin socket.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah.

[Host]

It's got to be really.

[Ben Sullins]

Barely anything. Yeah.

[Host]

It's probably one or two miles an hour range, isn't it?

[Ben Sullins]

Correct. Yeah. I mean, it depends on the vehicle. Right. So I did a video on this, geez, I don't know, eight years ago or so where I took my Model 3 at the time and it was still new, and I was trying to answer that question. Could you live without getting any high power thing, just a regular three pin socket? And during the week, the answer was yes, you could, because you get about maybe 2 miles of range per hour.

[Host]

Right.

[Ben Sullins]

So if you get home and you're home for, I don't know, 12 to 16 hours a day or something like that, it's probably fine. Like that's probably enough for your commute in the us it's certainly enough for your commute over, you know, in Europe or somewhere else. But. Yeah, but, but five miles of range, you know, and then if you plug a Rivian and it gets, you know, it laughs at you. It's just. Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

What are you doing?

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, this is cute.

[Host]

Stop wasting my time.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, exactly. So, but if you're getting five miles of range per hour and you get home at a, if you had, I don't know what a 9 to 5 type job is like over here, but if you get home and you're home for 12 hours, 60 miles of range. 60 miles of range is a lot. I mean, you know, what's that saying that in Europe, 100m, so to an American, 100m or 100 years seems like a long time, but to a European, 100 miles seem. Seems like a long distance.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

It's the reverse, right?

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

So, yeah, I think it's fine, you know, I think it would work without anything special.

[Host]

Yes. Yeah. Now that is interesting because I'd actually never thought of that because I knew, I knew the voltage is 110 in America. Never. Yeah, I never made that connection as to how slow it would charge a car.

[Ben Sullins]

It's very. It's not doable. I mean, it depends on your situation. I'd say, you know, America is a very big country. Right?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

So, you know, for some people it'll work, but absolutely, you want something more than that. And in fact, most of our hype, you know, our appliances will run off of like a 220 or 240 or something.

[Host]

Something. Right, yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

So, yeah, so that's where you're like, yeah, you just get one of those and it's fine. But that is something. That's big difference.

[Host]

Yeah. The. What that. I mean, we. We could talk for hours. I know, but I'm just trying to get. There's a couple of what I. A thing I've recently written. I recently wrote a thing about all the. The amazing, you know, ingenious, daring, brave car startups we've. I've seen since I've done. Done this show mainly in Europe, you know, but Swedish and German and Dutch and French. Brilliant ideas. And they look so exciting. And I went to the launch and they had the car there and all the journalists were there talking about. It's really exciting and it's going to be amazing. And they've all, all, without exception, have failed and just bit in the dust and they've sometimes kind of morphed into a different system. Like they. They've developed really effective solar paneling that they put on big trucks that. That will run refrigeration. I mean, some really clever stuff, but they've given up on cars. The two exceptions to that, from what I can tell, are rivian and lucid and I don't know, I mean, you're obviously, you're not there anymore, but I'm sure you're very aware of it. And you had. How long did you have your Rivian For a long time.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah. Three years.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah. I mean, I was one of the early ones.

[Host]

Yeah. But they seem to be. They seem to have got over that critical early stage where they need so much investment to be able to start actually producing the cars. That's what crippled all the ones we saw in Europe. But, I mean, they will survive, are they?

[Ben Sullins]

Oh, no doubt, no doubt. So Rivian and Lucid, very different brands. Right. Lucid has Saudi money, so just. They cannot go bankrupt unless they decide to not keep funding them. So there's that. I am surprised. Lucid's not in Europe.

[Host]

Are they not? I mean, I've seen one at Goodwood. I met. Because, Yes. I met Peter Rawlinson driving in his. In his Lucid. Yeah. So. But no, they're not. There's not. I've not seen one in the wild.

[Ben Sullins]

At all, it seems. I feel like they would do well. Yeah. I don't know. I mean. Yeah, yeah. Rivian, I know, has other challenges because trucks are, you know, at least where I'm at in Europe, are not a thing.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

And SUVs, they're extremely large by European centers. So I don't know, maybe the R2 will be a good one. But, yeah, Rivian's at that point where I do think they've cemented themselves as they're here to stay. They're sort of not too big to fail. But if anything, if, for whatever reason, you know, everything worked against them and they didn't have any more successes, you know, that Amazon or Apple or somebody would step in and buy them and keep them going, there's no doubt. But, you know, they got, what, a $5 billion investment from Volkswagen, Right. And now they're licensing their software into a lot of Volkswagens, which is where, I mean, Volkswagen knows how to make cars, there's no doubt about that. But software is not their strong suit.

[Host]

They've shown us that. Yes, it's a cheap device in a diesel engine and then it's brilliant.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, right, yeah. Sorry, didn't mean to put those people. Put those people on the actual software you use. So I think Rivian has enough strong partnerships and they have enough momentum that there's no doubt in my mind. I mean, I think they're doing relatively well financially and relatively well.

[Host]

Right.

[Ben Sullins]

With their production numbers. And they're still. They're still pre. Like their version of the Model Y, if you think about it. Yes, right.

[Host]

Yes.

[Ben Sullins]

Like, the cheapest Rivian is still very expensive. And as amazing as they are, I think they're totally worth all the dollars that they have. But you know, not everyone's going to be buying a 70 to $100,000 vehicle. It's just not practical. Right. So your market size is already limited. And then by the time Rivian actually came out with something, there's not a lot in the truck space. Right. There's only a few options in the US but in the SUV space, you do have a lot of competition from like Mercedes people that have been making really high end luxury vehicles since before.

[Host]

Rivian was much longer than anyone else on the planet.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, exactly. So the competition there I think is pretty stiff. And then now I think, actually I just think I just saw the Range Rover electric when it was delayed. But anyway, so when you have legit competition in the space and people are spending $100,000, I would guess that they're likely going to go with a brand that they know and feel like they can trust. So they have some serious headwinds in that space. But when there are r2 comes out, I think that they've built up enough brand value. Rivian as a brand, I think is worth a lot. Like RJ Scrivenge, the CEO is the nicest guy on the planet who, you know, has a, has a Ph.D. in automotive manufacturing. Like the guy there's. You couldn't, you couldn't, you know, cartoon draw a better person to be that guy. You know, maybe the one thing if you say he has any faults is that he's not controversial enough.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

You know, so he's kind of not in the news, you know, like he needs to.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

Come out swinging more. But anyways, so, so I think Rivian's in a really good place, you know, and the whole delivery van thing, that was always overlooked because that's the thing.

[Host]

I'm sort of, I forget that.

[Ben Sullins]

I mean, they got an order and I think Amazon's reduced the size of it, but they still ordered 100,000 of these delivery vans, you know, and they're not cheap to make and if you go back to San Diego or California, they're all over the place. They're everywhere. So it's not like they, you know, it's some, you know, theory. No, no, these are out there. They make a lot of them. So in fact, I think they sell more of their electric vans and Ford sells of its electric vans, which is, I mean, that's Ford you're talking about. Right. So, yeah, I think Rivian's going to do really well. Obviously the legislative environment, the political environment right now is not in their favor, especially with the tax credits ending. But I think once the R2 really starts to hit the roads early next year or whenever it happens next year, that will be their Model Y. And I guarantee that will, you know, their sales volumes will 5x what they are now. So, yeah, I'm really excited about him. I love Rivian. I think that they have a lot of teething issues still, but they're solid and lucid, I find really, really good as well. Peter Rollinson, one of my favorite people in the industry, and I know he's not there anymore, but I think lucid. It's the same thing when the Gravity suv, I think it's finally out or coming out. And then whenever they come out with a bit cheaper of a model, if they do that. Yeah, you know, I always, I've had many, you know, glasses of wine with Peter talking about this going, look, it works now because Mercedes and BMW do not make electric cars at the time. But as soon as the true luxury brands start making electric cars, I'm sorry, buddy. Like, it's going to, I think it's going to be too strong of a headwind for you. Like, you're going to have to really differentiate and it'll be a very niche kind of product. But if you could make something that is like, like the gravity SUV, like 500 plus miles of range.

[Host]

Yes.

[Ben Sullins]

And because the people buying it don't care about the cost. Right.

[Host]

At that point, if you're at that stage. Yes. The cost doesn't matter, does it?

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, yeah, so. So it was funny, you know, because, I mean. And he agreed. He said, you know, their competition wasn't Tesla, their competition was Mercedes and BMW. And I said, yeah, enjoy the lead while you have it, because as soon as they start coming out with them, I think it's going to be a really good.

[Host]

Because Jack has just been. I mean, you may. I don't know if you went, but Jack just went to see the new A Class A. BMW had to sign an NDA, couldn't take his phone in. They, they shot the footage. They've still got the footage. We're not allowed to have it until it's released. So I genuinely don't know anything about it. But I said to him, well, you're impressed? And he said, it's just, it's just, it's just the next step. He said, you will see this thing and you'll go, oh, my God. You know the distance between my little Nissan Leaf, that's still here.

[Ben Sullins]

Yes.

[Host]

And that is. He said, it's like model T with a Porsche 911, you know, it's that much of a gap, which is so. I mean, who knows, you know.

[Ben Sullins]

No, I mean, that's really the phenomenal thing about this whole transition. But you're right. I mean, most, you know, on my channel, you can sort of see I got kind of bored reviewing EVs a few years ago because in the early days, every new EV was, was exciting and different. It was like, oh, my God, what is that?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

You know, I can't believe they did that. Oh, what about this? And now it's just, oh, next year's version of the Kia.

[Host]

Yeah. Yes.

[Ben Sullins]

And not, not to bash Kia. I love Kia. I think they make great. Phenomenal. But it's like, I. I don't need to review the 20, 26 version of the same car or whatever. It's. It's all sort of just kind of now it just seems normal, at least, you know, I mean, I think.

[Host]

But I sense that is the best. So there's a very, very good old friend of mine. His. His partner has been a. I think it's fair to say, you know, a fairly wealthy Londoner who has always driven a Range Rover. So from when she was 19, I think her father bought her one, and she's always had a Range Rover and that's just who she is. And there is a specific type of woman in this country.

[Ben Sullins]

Yes.

[Host]

And they like Range Rovers and that's fair enough. I'm not. But, you know, a Range Rover in the middle of London is more, you know, questionable. Anyway, she has just bought the. I cannot believe she's on it. She came to visit us this weekend. She's got an EV9. The big, the big SUV. She. Absolutely. She's just obsessed with it. And it's first. So. Her first. She's gone. She's gone from no electric cars to this enormous tank. What she says is hysterical is that she was always, like, ashamed. She's got a garage and her Range Rover just about fit in it. This thing is too big.

[Ben Sullins]

It doesn't fit.

[Host]

Yeah. She said, I can't believe I've gone to electrical. It's even bigger. Yeah, but it's a seven. It's a seven seater. I sat in the no. 1. It's brand new. No, I sat in the very back row and she sort of shouted, what's it like back there? But I mean, it's an amazing car and they're what She's. She's had a kind of, I think six weeks and she's just looked at, back at her bank statements and seen how much she paid for petrol in a six week period and, and it's just gone. She said that we are paying for the electricity at nighttime, off peak at their house. You know, they're lucky they can charge it off the, you know, off the street in London. But you know, it is. And it's just, I just think it's interesting that it isn't like the first which you all have seen this as well. The first sort of few people that bought Teslas or bought Nissan Leafs or Renault, Zoe's were kind of in, you know, early adopters, enthusiasts. They would put up with the pain and the hassle and right. She's not prepared to do. And now it's gone to normal people just will buy a BYD because it's cheaper.

[Ben Sullins]

Right.

[Host]

And then. And that's why they've got it, you know, and, and then basically I don't want to blow her wealth up too much, but she's definitely not poor people have, you know, people like her who would normally buy a very high end Bima or a Mercedes or a Range Rover. She's now made that change and is obsessed.

[Ben Sullins]

I mean, and how is she?

[Host]

Yeah, she's also going to tell all her mates, you know, so her social circle are going to go, oh well, I don't buy petrol anymore, darling. Yes, I'm electric now, which is fine. That British.

[Ben Sullins]

I can, I can see it already. I love it, I love it. Yeah, no, that, that's absolutely right. I mean it's, it's amazing how quickly people become enthusiasts once they experience it for themselves. Right. I love the Kia EV9. I think it's phenomenal.

[Host]

I mean, extraordinary vehicle. Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

Whenever we find ourselves back in the US looking for a car that may be one of the ones that we buy. I mean that, that's on there. I mean, in fact, if you're looking at the Rivian R1s versus that. Yeah, I think it's a compelling, you know, Kia obviously been making cars a lot longer, knows how to do it. I mean and lately all of the ones I've seen out of them have been phenomenal.

[Host]

It's just the way that, you know, that sort of, that stuff that is. Has taken many decades to finesse. But it's like you open the back and you press the buttons and the seats go flip flop, flub and they go flat. There's no sort of. I can remember when we had an estate car and you'd put the Seats down. Well, they were still up. And that's just the way that's designed now is just amazing. The storage. You could move your house with the back of that.

[Ben Sullins]

Well, I've been talking to my wife about this because now we're here without a car and all the cars that are around us are relatively small. I mean, they're not tiny, like, you know, But I'm thinking about. I'm like, do we need a truck back home? I'm starting to question this whole thing. I'm like, I could just put a rack on top for the surfboards and the bikes. And I mean, you can definitely get it done without it. And we only have two kids, so it's not like we have four kids where we have to have that, you know, third row seating.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Ben Sullins]

So it's. Look at it might be, you know, my perspective's changing. Yeah, that's part of the whole idea.

[Host]

Oh, my God. You're getting sucked into the crazy socialist world of European.

[Ben Sullins]

That's right. That's right. You know, I'll tell you what, though. Free healthcare. I'm excited about this.

[Host]

Oh, my God.

[Ben Sullins]

I mean, free. I have to pay €80amonth or something for Social Security, but whatever, it's basically free.

[Host]

Yeah, no, it is. That is the most. I mean, it was one of the most terrifying things when I used to work regularly in America. It wasn't terrifying. It was only that I would see my medical insurance that the company had for me. I'll just go, oh, my God. I've never. I'd never seen that many figures in one. You know, just insane what they had to do. And thank goodness that was. We never called on it, but.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah.

[Host]

Yes, I know, it's not, it's.

[Ben Sullins]

No, it's. It's nice. I'm enjoying some of those services here. Yeah.

[Host]

I mean, Ben, we've talked for over an hour. Always try and do. Under an hour is so much. I just, you know, we've. We've covered all the main points.

[Ben Sullins]

Yes, yes. We've solved climate change yet again.

[Host]

Absolutely. Without any trouble at all.

[Ben Sullins]

No, but we'll take our Nobel Prize now. Thanks.

[Host]

It's been, it's been really good to catch up with you and I mean, I do hope, you know, if you're. If you are road tripping up into the damp island off the coast of mainland Europe, you'd be very welcome.

[Ben Sullins]

No, I'm hoping to come join you guys. When is Farnborough?

[Host]

Oh, that's in October. Oh, brilliant.

[Ben Sullins]

Oh, yeah.

[Host]

Yes. Oh, my God. It's going to be so exciting because also, you know, we've done this, this reenactment of Junkyard Wars.

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah. Zap heap.

[Host]

Zappy. We just finished last week the two machines. You will love them. They are.

[Ben Sullins]

No, that's amazing.

[Host]

You'll just look at them going, why the hell have they put those electric motors there? How the hell does this work?

[Ben Sullins]

Yeah, and so I'm about 90% that I'll be joining you there because I have to get one last. It's my identification card, basically saying. But because UK is not in Europe anymore, I need that. Otherwise if I try to return.

[Host]

They want you in Europe.

[Ben Sullins]

Well, I have to have. There's all this paperwork and. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so I need that card. But I think it'll be here before then, so about 90% sure.

[Host]

Oh, that's really.

[Ben Sullins]

So that'd be great.

[Host]

Excellent. We will see you there.

[Ben Sullins]

Okay.

[Host]

Thanks so much, Ben. Really hope you enjoyed. That was great fun talking to Ben. What an absolutely amazing dude. Really looking forward to seeing him later this year. Please do tell your friends about the Everything Electric show, Everything Electric Cars or Everything Electric Tech, both on YouTube. Do subscribe to them if you haven't already. Really worth doing, so you don't miss the amazing plethora of episodes we've got coming up. And that's it. As always, if you have been. Thank you for watching and listening.