Frozen Robot? Artificial Sun? Sodium-Ion Batteries? It's TECH IN CHINA!

Summary

Everything Electric Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode: Frozen Robot? Artificial Sun? Sodium-Ion Batteries? It's TECH IN CHINA!
Host: Robert Llewellyn (C)
Guest: Elliot (D)
Date: February 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the front lines of breakthrough sustainable tech coming out of China. Host Robert Llewellyn and guest “Elliot” exchange vibrant, witty, and highly informed banter about China’s latest advances in sodium-ion batteries, robotics braving -47°C, and the headline-making artificial sun (fusion reactor) that just broke a decades-old scientific barrier. The conversation blends field reporting, personal experience, and context from the wider world of low-carbon energy and EVs.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Chinese New Year & The Lunar Slowdown

• [01:06] Robert greets Elliot, wishing him a happy Chinese New Year.
• Elliot explains the 10-day holiday: “The whole country shuts down... Factory workers stopped... TV watching, lounging around.”
  (D – [02:08])
• Tone: Warm and jovial, setting a personal context for the technical conversation.

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2. CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery Breakthrough

• [02:46] Elliot recounts a trip to Inner Mongolia for CATL’s new sodium-ion battery launch.
• Key Features:
  • First car features a 45 kWh sodium-ion battery, ~400 km range.
  • Crucially, it maintains performance in extreme cold: “With sodium batteries... you lose only 10%. So you retain 90% of your range. Minus 50.”
    (D – [04:07])
  • Energy density: ~175 Wh/kg, lower than lithium, but expects cost parity then dramatic price drop as production ramps.
  • “Sodium is so much more abundant than lithium. Much easier to mine.” (D – [04:44])
  • Up to 60% CO2 reduction in manufacturing. (C – [05:17])
  • Longer cycle life: “They’re much more robust... can be used in things like houses and factories... sliced... in half... nothing happened... still holds charge.” (D – [05:45], [06:06])
  • “All of those issues suddenly go away now. We’re going to see a slow ramp up this year, but it is quite a revolution.” (D – [06:35])
• Notable Moment: Demo of slicing a charged sodium battery in half, both halves still working, zero safety incident.
• Forward Look: Real-world cold weather, safety, and cost benefits could make these batteries transformative for EV affordability, especially in harsh climates (e.g., Canada). (D – [12:18])

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3. Real-World Small Electric Cars & Infrastructure

• [07:55] Robert describes a recent road trip through Wales in three of the cheapest small EVs on the market.
• Takeaways:
  • Modern budget EVs are “£8,000 cheaper than they would’ve been five years ago... [and] wouldn’t have gone as far, wouldn’t have had the heaters...” (C – [09:12])
  • Even budget models now have excellent range, efficient heaters, surprisingly pleasant interiors: “Made no difference to the [range] whatsoever... I do not know how they produce that much heat.” (C – [10:46])
  • Battery management: “As a normal human being... the range just went up and up and up... over 4 miles to the kWh... in a British winter.” (C – [11:11])
  • “You could buy three [Leap Motor T3s] for the price of one luxury electric car.” (C – [13:06])
• Connectivity issues persist, but are now more manageable (“...checked which chargers weren't working before we got there...”).
• Highlights how sodium-ion batteries could directly benefit these kinds of budget market EVs and cold markets.

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4. Frozen Robots: Unitree’s Arctic Feat

• [14:21] Both marvel at a story about the Unitree robot walking autonomously in -47°C, making 130,000 snowy steps:
  • “I don’t think I could walk 130,000 steps.” (D – [15:35])
  • “It was doing those big paces... actually drew the logo in the snow...” (C – [15:02])
• Robotics innovation is as much about batteries as mechanical design: “If that had walked the same number of steps on a smooth road, it would have gone for another two hours probably.” (C – [15:19])
• Potential for search & rescue, border patrol, endurance use.
• Banter about “box on wheels” robots with a single, multi-tool arm.
  • Amusingly, Robert fretfully considers the toilet-cleaning version invading through the sewers: “It understands the sewage network brilliantly... sends an autonomous probe.” (C & D – [18:01])

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5. Artificial Sun: China’s Fusion Breakthrough

• [18:24] Quick pivot: “Should we move on to nuclear fusion?” (D)
• China’s reactor in Hefei surpassed a “Greenwald limit” that capped plasma density for 40 years.
  • “They’ve now gone beyond that ... in theory they can get... more power using less energy in the future.” (D – [19:51])
  • Elliot uses an AI analogy: “Imagine you’re trying to start a fire by rubbing sticks together... Fusion works the same way—you want to cram as many hydrogen atoms in as small a space as possible so they fuse together and release energy...” (D – [20:26])
  • “It’s very exciting... potential for it to go two, four, eight times this limit... not limitless, but much more energy from less of an input.” (D – [20:40])
  • Robert: “Critically important is no—or infinitesimally small—amounts of dangerous waste. Completely opposite to nuclear fission...” (C – [20:53])
• Reflection on decades of slow progress:
  • Robert: “My entire adult life has been spent waiting for nuclear fusion to happen.” (C – [23:00])
  • They note, past attempts (Culham, UK, 1960s) were far away from today’s achievement.
• Fusion is government funded in China; possibly difficult for outsiders to visit (discussed in a light, self-effacing way).
• Contrasts waste from fission vs. fusion:
  • “With nuclear fusion, not fission... infinitesimal waste... fission is burning radioactive material... produces heat, degrades, and stays radioactive a long time.” (C – [25:59])
• Reflections on legacy waste storage, and comparison to coal:
  • “...if you look at coal ash waste... staggering amounts; nuclear waste is minute, but you still don’t want it in your back pocket.” (C – [27:22])
• Military implications:
  • “And I can’t see any military use of it yet... but I’m sure I’ll be wrong. There’ll be a nuclear fusion jet that flies at a trillion miles an hour.” (C – [30:49])

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6. Geothermal Energy & The Bigger Picture

• [27:37] Robert shares anecdotes from a geothermal industry dinner.
• There’s a global community of engineers and academics focused on zero-carbon energy solutions with “benign partnership” between geothermal and nuclear.
• Playful complaints about the economic complexity: “She spoke and I had a terrible headache... it was so complicated... but when she finished, the headache was gone!” (C – [28:38])
• China has long-established geothermal plants; the country is also quietly scaling all forms of renewables. (C – [29:25])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You lose only 10% [range]... minus 50°C.”
  • Elliot on sodium-ion battery cold performance ([04:07])
• “They sliced it in half... nothing happened... still holds charge.”
  • Elliot on sodium-ion battery safety ([06:08])
• “All of those issues suddenly go away now... quite a revolution.”
  • Elliot on sodium-ion battery impact ([06:35])
• “The difference, you know that you could buy three [Leap Motor T3s] for the price of, you know, a luxury electric car.”
  • Robert on new EV affordability ([13:06])
• “Unitree... minus 47 degrees and did 130,000 steps, this autonomous robot just walking around...”
  • Elliot marveling at robotics endurance ([14:44])
• “Fusion works the same way—you want to cram as many hydrogen atoms in as small a space as possible so they fuse together and release energy.”
  • Elliot, AI-explained fusion ([20:26])
• “My entire adult life has been spent waiting for nuclear fusion to happen.”
  • Robert’s reflection on decades of scientific progress ([23:00])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [01:06] – Personal intro, Chinese New Year context
• [02:46] – Field report: CATL sodium-ion battery in Inner Mongolia
• [05:06 – 06:22] – Technical specifics & demo: range loss, safety, battery slicing
• [07:55 – 13:06] – Road trip in affordable EVs
• [14:21 – 16:46] – Unitree robot’s snowy marathon and robotics use cases
• [18:24 – 25:59+] – China’s fusion breakthrough, energy analogies, legacy waste issues
• [27:37+] – Geothermal anecdotes, concluding positive reflections

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Episode Tone and Style

The episode blends in-depth, up-to-the-minute reporting with warm, occasionally self-deprecating humor. Both Robert and Elliot are candid about their awe at rapid Chinese tech progress—balancing technical details with accessible analogies and dry asides. “Fun packed,” but grounded in real-world experience.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a vivid tour of China’s outsized role in next-gen sustainable technology—showcasing how sodium-ion batteries, cold-defying robots, and major fusion milestones could soon reshape the global energy and transport landscape. The friendly rapport, genuine curiosity, and boots-on-the-ground observation make this a must-listen for anyone following the future of clean energy, EVs, and climate tech.

Transcript

[A]

My name is Mackenzie and I started a GoFundMe for the adoptive mother of a nonverbal autistic child. The mother had lost her job because she wasn't able to find adequate care for this autistic child. So she really needed some help with living expenses, paying some back bills. So I launched a GoFundMe to help support them during this crisis. And we raised about 10, $10,000 within just a couple of months. I think that the surprising thing was by telling a clear story and just like really being very clear about what we needed, we had some really generous donations from people who were really moved by the situation that this family was struggling with.

[B]

GoFundMe is the world's number one fundraising platform, trusted by over 200 million people. Start your GoFundMe today at gofundme.com that's gofundme.com gofundme.com this podcast is supported by GoFundMe.

[C]

Well, hello Elliot, and it's lovely to see you again and I just would like to wish you happy Chinese New Year.

[D]

Oh, thank you very much, Robert. Yeah, we're just about to start Chinese New Year, going to the year of the horse. So yeah, if you were born 12 years ago, 24 years ago, it's your year. I'm not going any more than that. My maths is not that good. So the whole country shuts down for about 10 days from over the next few days. I'm not sure when this podcast goes out. Probably after Chinese New Year.

[C]

All right, maybe.

[D]

Yeah, but yeah, so it's going to be a nice time to spend time with family. We're heading off tomorrow on the bullet train to my wife's hometown for a few days. Lots of food, lots of fireworks.

[C]

Right? Wow. And I mean, does it. Because, you know, when my, my visit in China last year, which was definitely life changing experience, everything seemed so hyper vibrant and open and ready for action. And you know, in business and working, you know, there was no, I didn't see anyone lounging about. This is the, this really does close down, does it?

[D]

Yeah, completely. So even now I look out the window, I look over, overlook a big road and it's hardly any cars. You get to downtown in like 20 minutes, usually takes an hour. So it's already started. A lot of workers have already gone home. Factory workers stopped. Yes. There's a lot of lounging around, a lot of TV watching.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Amazing. Wow. But anyway, you've also, because you're about to do another trip, but you've just Done. The trip you've just done does sound extraordinary and, and properly like, this is a big shift in technology that you've just witnessed or. I, I think it is. But do you think it is now you've seen 100?

[D]

It is. So. So we've both done something quite interesting the last few days related to China. I was in Inner Mongolia last week, which is next to Mongolia, but it's part of China where it's minus 33 degrees. Oh, yeah, that's cold racing. You don't leave any skin exposed for more than about five minutes or you will lose that piece of skin. So just be careful. After returning from the toilet, you. Sorry. Yeah. So what we were there for was Seattle were announcing that the launch of their new sodium ion battery.

[C]

Right.

[D]

Which is going into mass production in the middle of 2026 and they're doing it with a changan, so they do a number of brands and they had the car there and they did the big launch ceremony. So they finally gave us all the facts about the battery. So, right. Promised around from the first car, which is a fairly plain looking sedan, 45 kilowatt hour battery should give you about 400 kilometers of range, which is okay. Yeah. But the most important thing is that it can operate in very frigid conditions and not lose any range.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

You take a lithium ion battery into, I don't know, deepest, darkest Siberia or Norway, you're losing about 50% of your battery. Right. And. And takes twice as long to charge. But with sodium batteries it takes just. You lose only 10%. So you retain 90% of your range.

[C]

Wow. Wow.

[D]

Minus 50.

[C]

Wow.

[D]

Yeah, it's quite incredible. So the energy density is not quite there. It's 175 kilowatts per kilogram. I think that's right. 175 watt hours per kilogram.

[C]

What? Hours per kilogram? Yeah.

[D]

So slightly less energy dense. And in the first few years they're going to say they're going to start ramping up. So the price will be about the same as lithium ion, but within a few years that price is probably going to get closer to half. And the basic economics of this is that sodium is so much more abundant than lithium.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Much easier to mine. And so the whole production process of making these batteries means it's, I think you say 60% CO2 reduction in manufacturing.

[C]

In the manufacturing. Wow.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Wow.

[D]

So, yeah, it's a really big moment for Catl. Very big moment for batteries in general and I think really very much a game changer. We talk about game changers a lot. When Catl does something like this, you know, it's actually quite serious news, I think.

[C]

Yeah. Did I not read that the charge discharge cycles, there's more of them in a sodium ion battery or is that. Is that correct?

[D]

That's right. So they're much. They're much more robust as a battery. So, yeah, they will last a lot longer. So they can be used in things like houses and factories, energy storage solutions. And then we saw a demonstration of them cutting the battery in half and nothing happened.

[C]

Right. And it was a fully charged battery. It was, yeah.

[D]

Literally, they sliced it in half. Wow. Nothing. And then they plugged it in. It said, oh, yeah, it still holds charge. And this portion of the battery. And this portion of the battery. Wow.

[C]

I was like, what?

[D]

Yeah, so it's incredibly safe as well.

[C]

Right.

[D]

So it kind of. It answers a lot of the issues that some people have with lithium ion batteries, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Mining safety range, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[C]

Cost, longevity. Yeah.

[D]

All those things, all of those issues suddenly go away now. We're going to see a kind of slow ramp up, I think, this year, but I think it is quite a revolution. If we can get cheaper batteries that can literally go anywhere, then. Yeah, yeah, I think that's really exciting. I did have to suffer very much going there in Mongolia in the winter, a beautiful place, very remote, but. Yeah, but that's why.

[C]

So that the reason they took you there was to show that this, this battery can work in those sort of temperatures.

[D]

Well, yeah, and to punish us and send us outside and say, right, do some filming outside. I don't want to,

[C]

but this is so weird. This is clearly a thing. So our most recent episode is about Jack up in Norway driving the Kia EV2.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, till it ran out.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And it did run out, but I mean, it still did. It got very close to 200 miles, whereas in a. On a warm day, that car would go very over 300. Yeah. So it cut a massive chunk off it. But it still went, you know, impressively far. But they only got. They were only at like -20, their coldest, when they actually got to the destination they would have gone to if it hadn't run out. It was minus 30 there. So that was up a hill and they've never got up the hill. Well, they did get up the hill, but they had to charge it before they had to top. Top it up before.

[D]

Up the hill.

[C]

Actually, one of the interesting things they said about that, because I was with Jack yesterday when they finally they, they charged it from another car. So that's how they topped it up.

[D]

Oh, okay.

[C]

It was just on the side of the road. It's all in the show. It's very. But then they got it to a rapid charger and the rapid charger charged it at the maximum rate that battery can charge it. And it was the temper. Body temperature of the battery was minus 30 then. And it still took the charge really quickly and then warmed up really quickly and then it was fine and it was. They drove it back and it was any. That is. But so there's that. Which is so pertinent to what you've just said because obviously if they'd have a sodium ion battery with say 200 mile range, they would have been able to do 199 probably quite easily, even in those temperatures. Exactly. But then the other one is that yesterday we finished a little road trip. So it was three of the cheapest, smallest electric cars on the market at the moment. A Citroen, the byd Dolphin Surf. A Citroen. Well, I can't remember the numbers and the letters, but it's Citron with some numbers and letters. That's small. That's how specific I am about model makes. And I was in the leap motor to three, which is the smallest. Yeah. And hugely the cheapest.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

And that was kind of one of the things we said was if we'd have done. If we'd have tried to do this even five years ago, the three cheapest cars would all have been about £8,000 more than those ones we drove. They wouldn't have gone as far. They wouldn't have had the heaters that, you know, there's a whole list of things they wouldn't have had. And, but, and yet we did it. And we also did this road trip through Wales which, from Glandidno to Cardiff on the A470, which is renowned for having the. I don't want to be rude about the Welsh. But not the most robust or plentiful charging infrastructure.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

So we took them on the. We took the smallest cars with the lowest range, basically down the worst road you could drive.

[D]

Good test then. And did it survive?

[C]

They all survived. They all did very well. They were chargers. We did a couple of them weren't more than a couple, but we checked before we got there the ones that weren't working. So we didn't even bother to go and see them. No, they did really well. And the leap motor just, just increasingly impressed me because when I first got in, I went oh, why have I. You know, it arrived at my house, I went, that's not going to make this. I wouldn't even be able to get to Grand Dudno. It's too far. You know, upper motorway. It's tiny little thing, you know, it's really petite, very spacious inside, very comfy, amazing heater. Just ridiculous. That makes no difference to the range whatsoever. It doesn't affect it at all. I don't know how. I do not know how they produce that much heat. I've. I had it down as low as it could be.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

If I turned it right off, I got a bit cold. So if I had it on. But if I had it on sort of medium, I was like, I should have been in a T shirt and shorts.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

It was 35 degrees, but it was great and it did. And the range just kept going. Because the other thing is, because it was a press car and I always forget this. You know, the people who've driven it before will have just hammered it. They would have absolutely found it every minute. So when I saw the range, I was going, oh, it's not very good.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

I drove it and as a normal human being, you know, I wasn't hyper minor anything. And the range just went up and up and up and up and up. The predicted range, because I was driving it essentially over four miles to the kilowatt hour, which is brilliant in. In. And this is in a British winter. I mean, admittedly it wasn't that cold, but it was like 6 or 7 degrees centigrade. It was not hot.

[D]

No.

[C]

And I mean, you know, it was about 6,7000 pounds cheaper than my co presenters cars that they were in.

[D]

Yep.

[C]

But they did have Android auto or Apple CarPlay and they did have really comfy seats and they had slightly better suspension. When we went over speed bumps outside Cardiff, I was aware of the speed bumps and so was my. So was my lower spine, which I think is now even further compacted.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, the TA3, we drove the TA3 for the channel, I think.

[C]

Yeah. A while ago, maybe four years ago.

[D]

Um, but even back then it was a really good car here in China.

[C]

Yeah, it'd be great. It's so small, it's so easy to park and get through narrow gaps.

[D]

Yeah. Like packed with just the right amount of features that you really need. Right. And I think, like going back to sodium batteries, those are the kind of cars which will benefit so much from these kind of sodium ion batteries. And I think what I've seen recently is a Lot of rumors on the Internet about, you know, the Canadian auto market opening up to, yes. Chinese EVs. Obviously Canada is very cold. Stellantis has a presence in Canada. It's all going to come together as, you know, Catl sodium ion batteries in Canada on small, affordable electric cars.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Which is what we want to see, right?

[C]

Yes. It's makes and when you drive those, you go what all. You know, that was the thing that really struck all of us was the, the journey was absolutely fine.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

It wasn't compromised. It was fine. It was all you would do. If we were in cars that cost 60 grand and had 100 kilowatt hour batteries, it would have taken the same amount of time. Because we're human beings, we had to stop, you know, we didn't. I mean we did it in a day, but it wasn't like insane rush. And by the time we got to Cardiff, where the plan was. I will film the last bit in Cardiff about four o' clock before it gets dark. We were there eight. It was very dark. You know, it took longer than we planned but we still managed it. But you know, the, the difference, you know that you could buy 3-3s for the price of, you know, a luxury electric car. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's a market obviously for luxury electric cars. I can understand it, but. But it wasn't. I thought it was. I thought I was going to go back to sort of 2012, first generation Nissan Leaf nightmare. It's going to run out. The heat. I can't have the heater on. I had so many coats with me. They're all in the back.

[B]

Our three free YouTube channels on EVs and clean energy tech are funded by our fun packed test drivetastic events in the north west and Greater London and our events down under. Next up, everything electric north 2026 plus check out everythingelectric store for merch and much more.

[D]

Talking about cold and difficult conditions. We've both seen the story, I think last week or recently about the Unitree robot.

[C]

Oh my God, that is it just in the snow.

[D]

So, yeah, again, Unitree. I think we covered cat on unitary on our last podcast, but we're doing it again because they've both had amazing bits and they do it.

[C]

They are doing such extraordinary stuff.

[D]

Yeah, they had their first walking robot which was walking in minus 47 degrees and did 130,000 steps, this autonomous robot just walking around and he actually drew the. Did it draw the logo of something?

[C]

It did, didn't it? In the snow? Well, it was walking in deep snow. Yeah, yeah. So it had to lift its little, its big legs up quite high to get to the next step. I mean that was, it was doing those big paces. It was absolutely extraordinary. But that is, that in some ways that's as much about the power storage that it has as it is about the actual robotics. I mean, the energy that's required for that. You know that if that had walked the same number of steps on a smooth road, it would have gone for another two hours probably.

[D]

I don't think I could walk 130, 000 steps.

[C]

No.

[D]

Just like a British fry up in the morning.

[C]

Yeah, no, I mean I think my record is probably at the Shanghai Motor show last year with you, but I think I did sort of 35,000 steps and I definitely needed to lie down.

[D]

Yes. A little nap at the end of that.

[C]

That was nothing.

[D]

I think it's starting to demonstrate what use these will start. Like these, like real use cases that these will actually have. So, you know, search and rescue missions or border patrols in remote areas or, you know, you could just send it out for three days and it does 130,000 steps and covers, you know, how many square kilometers.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And then you bring it back, swap the battery and off it goes again. I think, yeah. Beginning to see actual real world use cases of these, these robots. And I think that's what's really exciting. But again, you know, we've seen a robot kick a man in the balls now. We've seen walking 130,000 steps in deep snow. In deep snow. So what's next? What's going to be next month of robot? That's what I mean.

[C]

I mean the thing, because I've been looking at, I've been, you know, since we've talked about this, getting slightly obsessed and you have to kind of watch. I have to sort to go, don't look at any more robots. But there's some, there's some that both were being developed in China and in the United States that are kind of. I just find it's quite an interesting twist on it. So it's essentially a box on wheels. But it's got one arm.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

It's got one arm that's incredibly articulate. So it's got like nine elbows in itself and, and it has a different attachments on the top of the box. So the arm goes and it gets a brush and it goes. And it's a toy that was a toilet cleaning one. But it also can do, you know, it's got longer Proby things that can unblock drains. Okay, let's not go into any details there, but you then go, it doesn't look like a human being. It's a box with an arm. And it's got so many advantages because of that. I mean, obviously, if it's a box, an arm and it's got wheels, it needs a smooth floor. But I mean, if you're in a build, if it's work is in a building, and then you go, well, whatever else happens with that robot, it can't chase me.

[D]

No.

[C]

Forever. I've just got to go upstairs and

[D]

it's stuffed and it's stuck. Yeah. But it could get you through the toilet when you least expect it.

[C]

That is worrying. Okay, that. I wish you hadn't put that thought in there. I hadn't thought of that. It understands the sewage network brilliantly.

[D]

Sends a probe, get you when you least expect it.

[C]

Sends an autonomous probe. Oh, no, I wish you had. I honestly hadn't considered that. Now I will not be able to think of anything else. I will have to go to the toilet out in the garden. I can never use a toilet again.

[D]

I apologize for that thought. Should we move on to nuclear fusion quickly?

[C]

Can I just say, this goes in my bucket with carbon capture and storage, Nuclear fusion, hydrogen fuel cell cars, you know, it's one of those things that is going to be the absolute thing and it hasn't.

[D]

Well, yes, well, so I'm going to refer to my notes because this is quite complicated. But so I saw that this week there was a fusion break, fusion breakthrough where they went past something called the Green Walled limit. Okay. So China has got this big artificial sun project and there's always been this barrier. It's been there for about 40 years around plasma density. Scientists have been thinking, oh, it must be fundamental physics that we can't get any more energy out of this than what we put in, or something like that. Right. And so the reactor, which is in Hefei province here in China, it operated at 1.6 times the Greenwald limit without instability. So I think previously it got every reactor, got to this point and then made it unstable and everything fell apart. But they've now gone beyond that and They've made it 1.6 times this limit. Which means that in theory they can get, I think, more power using less energy in the future.

[C]

Right.

[D]

So I asked AI to help me try and explain this in a simple term, because I was like, I don't understand any of this. Yeah. So he says, imagine you're Trying to start a fire by rubbing two sticks together. So the more friction you create, there's more atoms smashing into each other, the easier it is to get a flame. And fusions works the same way. So you want to cram as many hydrogen atoms into as small a space as possible so they fuse together and release energy. And the problem was that when they packed it in like the stick would start getting unstable.

[C]

Right.

[D]

And kind of fall apart. But now they've been able to squeeze even more in and it still remains stable. So it's very exciting because it means smaller and cheaper reactors in the future and actually means that there is potential for it to go two times this limit, four times this limit, eight times, and really actually give us not limitless energy, but much more energy from less of an input.

[C]

But also I think critically important is no. Or infinitesimally small amounts of dangerous waste. I mean, it's completely opposite to nuclear fission, which is what we're doing at the moment.

[D]

Yes, correct.

[C]

Very important.

[D]

It's because it's one of those things that you hear about all the time, isn't it? You think, oh, this is the future of. This is the future. Yeah, yeah, batteries, blah, blah, blah. And you think, oh, yeah, whatever, Graph. Batteries. Yeah. Okay, yeah, show us when it actually comes onto the market. But what they've shown here is that they've been able to break past that limit, which has been there for about years and shows that there is potential, still potential, a very bright future for nuclear fusion. So, yeah, what's happening in China, I think kind of shows that they're really pushing the limits of what we thought was possible.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And now coming up with, in these, all these three areas that we've spoken about, the actual revolutions and real progress.

[C]

Yeah, no, that is extraordinary. And it's also extraordinary. I think partly my cynicism is. Is from, you know, now a long life where I've heard about nuclear fusion. So I, I went to school quite near the Cullen laboratories in Oxfordshire and we went there on a. On a school trip where they were. So this is 50. Wait a minute, 60 years ago. Oh, no, 55 years ago.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

About. I would have been about 15. And it was AM. And they've got their donut thing and the. And it was all about. They explained what you've just said. But 55 years ago, where they were nowhere near doing it. But they did have. They did have robotic arms there for moving radioactive material. Yeah, really impressive. Human controlled and that. Because it wrote it, it wrote our names on a piece of paper. And the man who was doing the writing was 10 meters away. And this arm would come with a pen and go write our names, but, you know, a bunch of school kids. But I was bl away by that. I wanted one of those arms

[D]

in

[C]

my bedroom so I could send it down, get a glass of water, bring it back up. But, but you know, that, that, that was that long ago. So my entire adult life has been spent waiting for nuclear fusion to happen.

[D]

And if we're getting closer, I don't know if we're.

[C]

Yeah, it does seem we're getting closer. You do hear every now and then it's got, you know, But I mean, what's extraordinary is the sheer quantity of power that they put in.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

To the system, which is in the gigawatt. It's measured in gigawatts, isn't it? I mean it is phenomenal. And then they get, you know, as well, like this. I mean it's more than I've ever heard before. That's way more than anyone else has ever managed.

[D]

Yeah. So, yeah, watch this space, I think, I mean there's still lots of development work that needs to be done. I'll see if we can get an invite to there. I mean, that's amazing. You know, maybe difficult, but is that

[C]

a government funded project, is it? Or is that a private company?

[D]

No, it won't be private or be. Right.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So, yeah, let's see if we can get into there and have a look around and. Yeah, poke around.

[C]

Although I might want to stay a bit of a distance when it gets up to full thermal. Well, I mean it's the temperatures it's producing is like five times hotter than the center of the sun. That's very, very hot. Yes.

[D]

They call it the artificial sun, don't they?

[C]

Yeah, because that's basically what they're doing is extraordinary technology. No, I mean it is absolutely fascinating. And I mean my, because my gripe is always, you know, and I was with some very pro nuclear people the other day who work in the nuclear industry in the UK and I mean I'm, I've never been critical of nuclear power. I think it's been, you know, statistically, if you look at it, it's that one of the safest forms of energy generation and yet there is that fear because of Chernobyl, I think primarily and certainly in Europe. But the, it's. They never ever mentioned Sellafield, which is in the uk, which is our nuclear waste storage facility, which is. I've been there three times. I'VE done a couple of talks to the engineers there in the past and they're amazing. And you desperately want those engineers to keep doing it for a long and more generations of them, because there's nothing we can do. The legacy we've inherited from the 1950s and 60s is truly, you know, expensive to look after and we've got no choice. We have to do it. And that would have been, you know, particularly now I get angry because private companies build, as in Chinese and French companies building Hinckley points. They won't pay for the nuclear waste storage. We have to pay for that. The naughty taxpayers and that. I just go, guys, you need to sort this out. You know, this is not good. That was my argument, really, that. But with nuclear fusion, not fission, and that's annoying the terms. They could have come up with other terms. I get it now, but I've had to have it explained because they sound quite similar. Fusion is crushing things together. Fission is burning. Oh, okay.

[D]

I didn't know the difference. You've just.

[C]

Oh, no, well, no, that's. I mean, fusion is like where you're, you're fusing things together under a norm. Phenomenal pressure, you know, huge electro. Electromagnets and you're fusing tiny little things together and that creates the heat that requires a vast amount of energy to create that thing. Whereas nuclear fission is effectively, you're burning radioactive material, you're producing heat, but you are, you are changing the nature of those, those materials as they produce that heat, they degrade and they fall to bits and they stay radioactive for a long time.

[D]

There you go.

[C]

But, you know, so you effectively. It's called fusion, a fission. Fission because it's fissile material, it's burning effectively.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

Which is what's still going on. I've just heard an update about Chernobyl and the, the sarcophagus.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And the temperature inside is still thousands of degrees and will be for tens of thousands of years.

[D]

Oh, is it?

[C]

Oh, yeah, it's still going. Ben, put it out. It's contained. It's contained. But of course, it's in a war zone now, so it's under threat all the time. Just terrifying. I think that's the, I think that is the golden rule is when it's working, it's absolutely brilliant. And really, it's still the amount of waste, if you look at the coal ash waste that there will be in China, in America, in this country, staggering amounts of it, staggering amounts. And if you look at the nuclear waste, it's minute Amounts. But you still don't want it in your back pocket.

[D]

No, you don't.

[C]

No, a thing. That was a, you know, fascinating opportunity. I was invited to a special dinner last week in London of people who work in the geothermal industry around the world. I mean, this is specifically for the, the UK case for geothermal energy. But. And quite a few of the people there were also involved in the nuclear industry. And there seems to be a benign partnership going on there. It's basically, I think there's a collective movement of zero carbon energy generation. Academics, engineers, scientists that have kind of. They are now very confident that they're not having a fight or an argument. Well, I know we go. They go, yeah, fossil fuel's boring, it's just over. And this is what we're doing. And these are really. I mean, one of the women who spoke at this thing about the economics. Honestly, this is not. I'm not making this up. I was there, happy, healthy, fit. I sat there and she. I had a terrible headache as she spoke because it was so complicated and their economics arguments about it and the. How. I, I can't even do an impression of it because the language is totally alien to me. But it was that if you listen to sort of a report from a city financial institution on the radio or something and you just go, you know, it was, it was extraordinary. And I went, oh. But then I was worried as she was speaking. I go, oh, God, I don't. I've got to find a, you know, a painkiller or something. I don't think I can stay off. It was in real pain. When she finished, I was fine. I sort of realized about 10 minutes later, oh, my headache's completely gone. Now we're talking. I mean, I understand things like drilling.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

You know, pumping fluids down a hole deep into the ground.

[D]

Forget it.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was, it was really. I mean, because there are functioning geothermal plants. So I've just had a look. So there are, there's numerous ones in China in various places where there would be sort of low grade earthquakes and volcanic activity where the, you know, like Iceland, like various places in the world. So that. And they're old. I mean, 1970. Yeah. And they're about 40 megawatts, you know, which was, you know, back in 1970 was huge.

[D]

Surprising. They have it.

[C]

Yeah. You've got some exercises going.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

Very impressed. I thought he was doing a bit of tai chi there, I thought.

[D]

Yes, I think so. Should we, should we wrap it up?

[C]

I think we should wrap it up. Yeah, but that's, but, but that was a good little catch up on a lot of exciting stuff.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

I mean the fusion stuff. I'm really, I mean, I think. I'm sure we'll both keep an eye on that topic. It's really sure. I mean, it's very interesting that after I feel kind of slightly sad for all the scientists I've met since then, when I was 15 and then more recently who've been working for decades to do. And then they go, oh, the Chinese have sort of done it.

[D]

Yeah,

[C]

they needed about another trillion dollars here to get there. Exactly.

[D]

I mean, that's as humanity. Then I'm all for it.

[C]

Yes, no, exactly. Now that is very positive piece of technology.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And I can't see any military use of it yet. But I'm sure I'll be wrong. There'll be a nuclear fusion jet that flies at a trillion miles an hour. And you go, okay.

[D]

Someone will tell us in the comments.

[C]

Yes, they will. Oh, I'm sure someone will. Anyway, it looks like you've got a lot on your plate.

[D]

Yes. We're getting ready for Chinese New Year, so.

[C]

Yes, it's very exciting. Of course he's. And so it's like school holidays as well.

[D]

Yeah, basically.

[C]

Now I understand. Yeah. Yeah, we did well. We got. We did, we did well. Well done. Well, have a wonderful Chinese New Year and I will see you. I'll see you in. And I'll see you in the Year of the Horse.

[D]

Yes. Sooner.