Giles Parkinson On Australia’s EV Boom, Electric Utes & Solar Revolution! | Fully Charged Podcast

Summary

The Fully Charged Podcast: Giles Parkinson On Australia’s EV Boom, Electric Utes & Solar Revolution!

Release Date: February 13, 2025

In the latest episode of The Fully Charged Podcast, hosted by Robert Llewellyn, Giles Parkinson joins the conversation to delve deep into the electric vehicle (EV) landscape, renewable energy advancements, and the dynamic shifts occurring within Australia’s sustainability sector. Drawing from his extensive journalism background and involvement with influential platforms like Driven, Renew Economy, and One Step off the Grid, Parkinson provides a comprehensive and insightful overview of the current state and future prospects of EVs and renewable energy in Australia and beyond.

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Guest Introduction and Background

[00:00] Robert Llewellyn introduces Giles Parkinson, highlighting his credentials as a seasoned journalist with over four decades in the field. Parkinson has significantly contributed to the coverage of EVs, renewable energy, and sustainability, founding three pivotal websites: Driven (focused on EVs and electrification), Renew Economy (covering the transition to renewables), and One Step off the Grid (aimed at individuals striving for energy independence).

[04:01] Parkinson elaborates on his journey, mentioning his peak role as deputy editor of the Australian Financial Review. He underscores the importance of his platforms in filling the gaps left by mainstream media, which often overlook critical developments in sustainability and renewable energy.

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Tesla’s Declining Sales and Its Implications

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the troubling trend of declining Tesla sales globally, with a particular emphasis on Europe and Australia.

[08:01] Robert Llewellyn expresses concern over Tesla's sales drop, noting, “Everywhere I've read is reductions in sales of Tesla cars. It’s not to do with people not wanting electric cars, it’s due to the actions of the CEO, which is having a significant impact.”

[09:03] Parkinson confirms this trend, citing that Tesla's sales in Australia have plummeted by 33% in a recent quarter, dropping to a quarter of their level two years prior. He explains that Tesla’s dominance in the Australian EV market has been challenged by the rising popularity of other brands like MG and BYD.

[12:15] The conversation touches on the changing perception of Elon Musk. Initially seen as a visionary, Musk’s controversial behavior and statements have alienated many consumers. Parkinson shares that consumers are increasingly hesitant to purchase Tesla vehicles solely because of Musk’s personal conduct, despite the cars’ technical excellence.

[15:11] Parkinson points out the growing competition in the EV market, with brands like MG, BYD, Geely, LDV, and Xpeng gaining traction. He attributes part of this shift to Tesla’s once-unmatched Supercharging network, which other manufacturers are now striving to emulate and expand upon.

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Australian EV Market Dynamics

The Australian EV market is experiencing a transformative phase, marked by increased competition and shifting consumer preferences.

[20:54] Parkinson discusses the government’s emission standards and the pushback from traditional Japanese manufacturers like Toyota, Mazda, Honda, and Mitsubishi. These companies have heavily promoted hybrid vehicles, leading Australian consumers to develop a strong affinity for mild and plug-in hybrids.

[21:43] The introduction of the BYD Shark Ute, a plug-in hybrid, represents a significant move away from diesel and petrol-powered utes. While Parkinson remains skeptical about the long-term efficacy of plug-in hybrids in reducing emissions, he acknowledges their potential as a transitional solution in the absence of compelling all-electric ute options.

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Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G) Initiatives in Australia

Parkinson sheds light on Australia's exploration of Vehicle-to-Grid technology, which allows EVs to interact with the power grid to enhance energy efficiency and stability.

[25:17] He outlines the progress and challenges faced in implementing V2G, including the adoption of the CCS2 technology standard and the need for collaboration between car manufacturers, network operators, and energy retailers. Despite initial pilots using older protocols like CHAdeMO, the future of V2G in Australia hinges on widespread industry support and technological compatibility.

[27:29] The reluctance of Tesla to fully embrace V2G is examined, with Parkinson suggesting that the company’s focus on proprietary energy products like Powerwalls may be influencing this stance.

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Political Landscape and Policy Influences

The interplay between government policies and the sustainability sector is a recurring theme throughout the episode.

[30:27] Parkinson discusses the upcoming Australian elections and the potential impact on renewable energy policies. He highlights the precarious position of the Labor government, which relies on support from independents and smaller parties like the Greens and Teals. The rise of the Teals, a group of independent candidates, could significantly influence the formation of a minority government and subsequent energy policies.

[34:02] The conversation touches on the ideological shift within the Liberal Party, now aligning closely with conservative interests that are typically anti-renewable and resistant to change. Parkinson contrasts this with the progressive stances of other groups, emphasizing the challenges ahead in achieving meaningful policy advancements.

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Real Zero vs Net Zero: A Critical Perspective

One of the most compelling discussions revolves around the concept of "Real Zero" as opposed to the more commonly discussed "Net Zero."

[49:31] Parkinson critiques the "Net Zero" approach, arguing that it often relies on dubious carbon credits and insufficient measures like tree planting. He advocates for "Real Zero," which entails a more genuine and uncompromising reduction of emissions without relying on offsets or incomplete solutions.

[50:29] Llewellyn echoes this sentiment, expressing enthusiasm for the clearer and more actionable framework that "Real Zero" offers. Both hosts agree that real, tangible actions are essential to combat climate change effectively, rather than deferring responsibility through vague goals.

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Renewable Investments: The Role of Brookfield Asset Management

Parkinson highlights the significant investments made by Brookfield Asset Management in renewable energy, emphasizing that these moves are driven by economic sense rather than purely environmental motives.

[35:13] He notes that Brookfield's investments in solar farms and battery storage are in response to the high demand from industrial consumers seeking cheap and clean energy. This trend underscores the economic viability of renewables, dispelling the notion that sustainability measures are solely for virtue signaling.

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Mining Decarbonization: Andrew Forrest’s Vision

A notable segment of the conversation focuses on Andrew Forrest, a prominent figure in the Australian mining industry, and his efforts towards decarbonizing mining operations.

[40:34] Forrest’s commitment to achieving "Real Zero" by 2030 for his mining operations involves significant technological advancements, such as fully electric excavators and massive charging stations for heavy-duty trucks. These initiatives not only reduce emissions but also demonstrate leadership within the mining sector.

[41:19] Parkinson describes Forrest's innovative projects, including the "Infinity Train," which utilizes battery technology to efficiently transport iron ore. Such projects are lauded as inspirational models that blend technological prowess with environmental responsibility.

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Battery Storage’s Growing Dominance in the Energy Grid

The episode delves into the rising prominence of battery storage in Australia’s energy grid, particularly during peak demand periods.

[45:18] Parkinson explains that during evening peaks, battery storage systems have surpassed gas generators in providing electricity, trailing only hydro as the second-largest energy source after natural hydro power.

[46:26] Llewellyn highlights the transformative impact of battery storage, referencing Tesla’s Megapacks as a pivotal technology. These modular and scalable battery systems have revolutionized grid management, enhancing reliability and reducing dependence on fossil fuels.

[48:26] Parkinson reminisces about the pivotal moment in 2017 when Tesla’s Big Battery in South Australia was rapidly deployed to mitigate blackouts, showcasing the potential of large-scale battery solutions in stabilizing the grid.

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Miscellaneous Stories and Anecdotes

Towards the end of the episode, Parkinson shares personal anecdotes that underscore the practical realities and challenges of EV ownership.

[51:19] He recounts an incident where a truck collided with his parked Tesla Model Y, dispelling myths about EVs being easily written off in accidents. This story contrasts with mainstream media portrayals, highlighting the durability and resilience of modern electric vehicles.

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Conclusion and Forward Look

As the podcast wraps up, both hosts reflect on the progress and hurdles in the journey towards a sustainable future. Parkinson underscores the importance of technological innovation, supportive policies, and corporate leadership in driving the EV and renewable energy revolution.

[53:26] Robert Llewellyn thanks Giles Parkinson for his invaluable insights, emphasizing the significance of informed journalism in shaping public understanding and policy-making. He also promotes the upcoming Everything Electric Live event in Sydney, encouraging listeners to engage further with the sustainability community.

Final Thoughts: This episode of The Fully Charged Podcast offers a thorough exploration of Australia’s evolving EV market, the critical role of battery storage in the energy grid, and the intricate interplay between politics and renewable energy initiatives. Giles Parkinson’s expert analysis provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of the current landscape and the promising directions for the future of sustainability in Australia and globally.

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Notable Quotes:

• Giles Parkinson [04:40]: “We feel that we're playing a really critical role in education, not just the people, we're actually educating a lot of the politicians and the policymakers.”

• Robert Llewellyn [08:00]: “Carbon capture and storage is basically a boondoggle. It means we can carry on burning fossil fuel.”

• Giles Parkinson [15:17]: “The rest of the charging network in Australia is improving and it's getting better and it's getting bigger and it's getting more reliable.”

• Giles Parkinson [25:17]: “There are so many infrastructural and industry hurdles to sequential vehicle to grid implementation.”

• Giles Parkinson [49:31]: “Net zero relies on carbon capture. It relies on you getting credits for planting a few trees here and there. Look, planting trees is great, but a lot of those credits which are created are really doubtful and dubious and can't be relied on.”

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the multifaceted discussions between Robert Llewellyn and Giles Parkinson, offering listeners a clear and engaging overview of the critical issues shaping the future of electric vehicles and renewable energy in Australia.

Transcript

[Robert Llewellyn]

Foreign welcome to another episode of the Fully Charged show podcast. Coming to you today from a lovely house in Brisbane, Australia with today's guest is, has been on the show before and is an absolute wonderful mine of information about electric vehicles, renewable energy and particularly in Australia, but very much with a very global view as well. Giles Parkinson is a proper journalist, not like me, like a proper one. So he's worked on proper newspapers in, you know, as a trainee and then he became an editor and then he's done also he explains a bit of it, but he is, he has a really good grasp on it and we have a fascinating conversation about the state of the world, the state of electric vehicles, Tesla sales decreases around the world, which is slightly worrying. Go into that in some detail. Giles is that one of the contributors, the founder and one of the contributors to three amazing websites, the Driven, which we refer to very often, Renew Economy, which we also refer to very often, and One Step off the Grid, which is essentially aimed at people who are trying to be fully off the grid and produce all their own energy. So a lot of, a lot of crossovers with the Fully Charged. So they're obviously going to be at Everything Electric live in Sydney on the 7th, 8th and 9th of March this year, which is really good. Giles is always an amazing speaker at those events and they, they just know everything, they know everything about Australia and what's going on here and it is really impressive. I have driven back in a Xpeng G6. It's really nice. It's got such good air conditioning I had to turn it down. I got cold sitting in the car. And it's not a chilly day, let me tell you that. Anyway, I won't waffle on anymore. Please welcome to the Fully Chart show podcast. Giles Parkinson. Love the Everything Electric Show. Then join us live in Sydney in March or London in April or in Vancouver, Farnborough and Melbourne in September, October and November 2025. So, Giles, thank you so much for joining us today. It's kind of annoying because I would love to have done it in person with you because you're only just down the road. But I think we should explain to people who've never been to Australia, just down the road here means sort of three or four hour drive, but at least we're in the same time zone.

[Giles Parkinson]

Well, that's right, yes, it's kind of like London to Glasgow, but warmer. But yes, no, it's great to be, it's great to be back on. And look, you know, we've got, we've got video now, so that's a bit. It's a bit unsettling. I should have worn a clean pair of clothes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But anyway, it's all good, it's all good. But there's so, I mean, actually, can you just briefly, because you have been on the show numerous times and you're going to be at the live event that's coming up in Sydney. But can you just give people a bit of your background? Because I think it's, it's. I like the fact that you're a proper journalist as opposed to someone like me sort of stumbled into what I'm doing rather haphazardly.

[Giles Parkinson]

Yeah, look, I actually went through a cadetship about four decades ago. It was over four decades. Proper cadetship. Old Jim Dunbar, he's a inscrutable Scottish man who used to sort of take us through all the sort of the, the do's and don'ts in journalism and there was a group about 18 of us and it was really, it what seems now sort of old. So I've been a journalist all my working life, I guess I peaked at deputy editor of the Australian Financial Review and sort of led their online strategy and here I am, quite untech savvy, but hitting a sort of an online conglomerate, if you like to call it that. But we've got, we've got. We've got three websites, we've got Renew Economy which focuses on the transition to renewables and you know, well, sort of.

[Robert Llewellyn]

The economic aspects of that as well, which is really interesting.

[Giles Parkinson]

Yeah, it is interesting. Look, policy, the economic, the regulatory and the technology part of it. And of course we've got the Driven, which just focuses on EVs and the EV transition and electrification now and One Step off the Grid, which is kind of more consumer. So we've got sort of three different websites there and a bunch of podcasts and, you know, more than half a million unique visitors a month on the two major websites. So we're attracting a bit of attention and it's actually a lot of fun doing it and it's a really important thing to do because for reasons best known to them, the mainstream media are just not covering it properly. So we're glad to fill in the gaps.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes, absolutely right. And also, I mean, I think the thing that I, when I go down a bit because the news is so depressing, I'll then see something often on one of your websites or elsewhere, just a piece of news about a next step, a bigger step, a breakthrough in technology or in scale of renewable energy in sort of and I go, oh, God. So it hasn't stopped, it's still going. There's so, I mean, basically it's a very exciting area. There is so much happening all the time, it's really hard to keep up.

[Giles Parkinson]

Well, it's actually true. And look, that's one of the most common bits of feedback that we get from readers. We really like your website because it is so positive. We actually see things that are happening because if you get caught in mainstream media and you only got that, and then if you went to social media, you get like a lack of information in mainstream media and then just misinformation and disinformation on social media. And we're just sort of pointing out, you know, we're not making stuff up, we're just pointing out that, hey, South Australia is a state which is at more than 70% wind and solar and there are no blackouts. It's going fine. The rest of Australia is going really well. Households will very soon be providing half of the energy requirements of main grid. So we're seeing this amazing, amazing consumer growth in energy assets, which really should be laying the groundwork for a shift to sort of power to the people, apart from all the regulatory market and still policy hurdles, but we're just sort of seeing it. It's inevitable, but there's just a few hurdles to jump and we feel that we're playing a really critical role in education, not just the people, we're actually educating a lot of the politicians and the policymakers. So when people come into the industry, into the market, they go, well, where do I find out about this stuff? And people say, well, go to renew economy, go to the driven, because that's where you can find out about what's happening in the industry, in the market. And that's what people do.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I mean, I think that' you're absolutely right and that is a crit, I've realized in the last few years, a really critically important part because, you know, we've had this change of government in the UK late last year and, you know, which was after 14 years of, you know, stuff, we don't need to talk about it. Some good. It's not all bad. Nothing's ever all bad. You know, some positive, very generally positive attitude towards renewables and particularly offshore wind and electric vehicles. But, you know, let's move on to that. But what is interesting is when you will hear a politician, politician, particularly recently a particular case would said, you know, we're going to go, we're going to go more for renewables and more for electric vehicles and more for carbon capture and storage. And my, my little alarm bell goes ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. You know, carbon. So they have been sold, you know, they have. Someone is lobbying, as Pete has talked to them and they've been at meetings where they've talked about the advantages of carbon capture and storage. And, you know, you know, I've looked at it in great detail. I know a couple of really clever atmospheric scientists and engineers and physicists and they. I've never met anyone who works in the field which could enable something like carbon capture and storage to work, to say, oh yeah, we can make it work. Like it's basically a boondoggle. That means we can carry on burning fossil fuel, you know, it's simple as that.

[Giles Parkinson]

Absolutely.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And so we need. You do. Yeah, you're absolutely right. They're. Politicians need as much education as any, any of us. I mean, they're, you know, they're the ones making the decisions. Well, they used to be.

[Giles Parkinson]

Yeah, they used to be.

[Robert Llewellyn]

They used to be. Although we've got rather an exception happening at the moment in the United States. I mean, I do want to mention this just because it's kind of all over the news as we speak. Everywhere I've read is reductions in sales of Tesla cars. And it's not to do with people not wanting electric cars, it's to do with the boss. And that's a really, I find it really upsetting and a difficult topic because of the incredible achievements that that company has made and that man has done in the past with. Not with SpaceX and with, you know, with Tesla and everything, you know, like that. It is a really difficult one, but it's clearly having an impact. I mean, I don't know, is it having an impact on sales in Australia? I know it is, particularly in France, really dramatic impact. Basically no one's going to buy a Tesla in France now.

[Giles Parkinson]

It was actually interesting to see that Tesla's fallen in all those European markets, including in Norway, where I think Model Y was the best selling vehicle. Now it's fallen to number six. And the top selling vehicle, EV in Norway is a Toyota and followed by some vws. And you're just going, hang on, what's going on there? But look, in Australia, look, Tesla sales have absolutely plunged. Last year they were down 17% overall when the overall EV market grew in January, this year they're down another 33%. So they're actually just one quarter of their level in January two years ago. Now, it should be said that the Australian EV market in January was not healthy, so a lot of companies fell. But I don't think there is any doubt that Tesla is on the nose with a lot of consumers. And because Tesla has always accounted for more than half and up to two thirds of the Australian EV market, because we simply. I was looking at the top 10 models in, in Norway and eight out of those 10 we just, you can't get in Australia. So, you know, so we're still way behind in a lot of those models. So what Tesla does has an impact on the rest of the market. We've got one contributor who worked, who works for us. He used to work at Polestar and he said that even four years ago he was in the Polestar showrooms in Australia and people would walk in saying, I really like Tesl, but I'm not going to buy one of those cars because of Elon Musk. And that was three or four years ago. So, I mean, he's always been a, he's always been a divisive figure. People haven't liked him for whatever reason. But I think that's intensified now that he's come out in such. Well, it's just, it's just really quite striking what he's doing. I just think his political views, his misogyny, his hand gestures, his interference, his conspiracy theories, his disinformation, misinformation, it's really quite disturbing. I got my doctor into a Tesla a year ago and he's now complaining that he's been harassed in his home village around where he is. We know people who are not buying Teslas because of Musk, and we know people who own Teslas who are thinking about, I don't want to be driving these anymore. And that, as you say, is a shocking thing because I actually still think they're the best EVs best.

[Robert Llewellyn]

They're amazing cars. Yeah, yeah.

[Giles Parkinson]

You know, Tesla has made its battery products. I mean, they've basically changed the whole industry in Australia. They've underpinned the renewable energy transition because of the popularity of battery storage. They're not the only player, but they're probably the biggest and one of those most popular ones. So, you know, look, I was going back and, and looking at my articles from 2015. I was at the Climate Paris, the Paris Climate Conference, and Elon Musk talked at the Sorbonne. And I was sitting there in the front row and going, oh, this guy's really interesting. And this is even before he's produced his first Model 3. It's before we've seen the power Pack or the, or the, the model Y.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I suppose you will. Yeah.

[Giles Parkinson]

Yeah. And, and people were just fascinated. He had a great vision for the world. He wanted to basically save the planet, to sort of get rid of fossil fuels and the world. But now he does seem to want to change the world, but not in a way that a lot of people feel very happy about. And, you know, I was sort of thinking, I think, sort of thinking of writing a story the other day, thinking, you know, you know, a decade ago we thought you wanted to save the planet and now we'd very much like you to leave it. Yes, because he does want to go to my house.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Can you. Yes. Can you concentrate on your rocket and get on it and. Please. And.

[Giles Parkinson]

Yes, something like that. And it's. Look, it's, it's such a, it's such an awful thing to say and it's an awful situation to be in because he's created these companies which have done quite amazing things. But, you know, but look, someone said to me the other day, okay, so what are you going to do that. And you go buy a car made in China, you know, their government.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Well, yes, exactly. But I mean, you kind of. It's a kind of known and an unknown, isn't it? I mean, I, you know, like, what if I think, what, what, what are the political opinions of the boss of Mercedes Benz? I have no idea and I'm not the slightest bit interested. Or the political opinions, the boss of Toyota. Anyway, I don't care. That's not the point. You know, don't. I'm not bothered by that. I cannot even. And I have genuinely tried to ignore the opinions of the boss of Tesla. I've tried to avoid them. I've closed down my news feeds, I've stopped looking at those things and it's still leaks in, I guess, because it is so extreme and therefore newsworthy. Which is what? That whole, you know, that we have similar figures in the uk, you know, who will get on the TV all the time. You think, well, they haven't done anything, no one voted for them. But they. Because they, they'll say something incredibly offensive and outrageous. The sort of media go, oh, we must show people this. You go, well, yeah, okay, but maybe show a bit of balance, the other side as well, which is the argument that's going on in the uk. It. I think that's. Yeah, I mean, I don't think there's anything you and I, or I can say other than I feel it's a great pity because the car's Great. I mean, you know, I'm in Brisbane at the moment. It is full of Teslas. It's just there, everywhere. It's so common. You know this, I would say the second most. I'm really surprised to see the second Most common is MG. MG4 is. There's just dozens of them and then B1E. So we're, we've, we're borrowing my sister in law's BYD Atto 3 at the moment. I've got to say it's an amazing car. I am really surprised but I like the car and the software works and the sat nav takes you to where you want to go and it's really good. The, you know, the interior is quirky but it doesn't offend me. But it's the range we just can't believe. We keep forgetting to charge it because it goes, it just goes for days and we go, I suppose we should charge the car. Oh God. It's just, it's just incredible. I'm really impressed with it.

[Giles Parkinson]

Yeah, well look, it's interesting. And look, the MG4 actually grabbed top spot for one month last year.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Wow.

[Giles Parkinson]

Yes. And that was on the look, that was on the back of some fairly aggressive price cuts. So it went below 30,000 for a bit and that's great. And that's what we are seeing a bit more in Australia now. We're seeing more competition so we're seeing the MGs, we're seeing the BYDs as you mentioned. You know, we've got the Geelys and the LDVs and the Xpengs and they're all coming in. I, you know, I mean one of the things that Tesla did extremely well and which would make it hard for me to, to, to shift is the network. I mean their supercharging network is just fantastic and that was really a really smart idea. The rest of the charging network in Australia is improving and it's getting better and it's getting bigger and it's getting more reliable but it's still, you know, it's still just a, you know, it's still a thought in the back of your mind.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, absolutely right. I mean we had a classic example in. We've just been filming in New Zealand and I tried to use, you know, with an Australian SIM and a British phone to. We couldn't even download the app that we needed. So it would not, it wasn't, it just did, it just wasn't there. We'd look at the, you know, we'd scan the barcode and nothing happened. We just couldn't do it. And we eventually saved by two very friendly New Zealanders who. Who had the app. And they charged our car for us, which is. I bought them a coffee, but it felt like a bit of a. It was in our favor, certainly, that deal. But then we went to a Tesla supercharger that's open to any car in. In Auckland. Works straight away, absolutely no problem. Charge the car really fast. You just go, why? Why is that happening? But I think Australia is 10 steps ahead of that. You're, you know, I've used chargers here far more easily now, and I've got. I've even got a card that I go, beep and it charges the damn car. It's annoying to have to have the card, but it works. So that is a, you know, the important thing. I mean, isn't it crazy? And I'm sure you've thought this as well, but you go, you. I mean, that was a classic example where the gas station, a filling station, there's two chargers built by B. You know, installed by bp. It's a BP charge station. When you buy fuel, you put it in your car. Liquid fuel, you put in your car. You go inside, you pay for it. That thing. You've got to go through a hideous rigmarole of nightmare data acquisition, like, you let me buy the electricity. You absolute pillocks. Do you actively want me not to be able to do it? Is that why you've put in these charges? You know, I could. Why can't I go in and pay the man in. In the garage? I'll give him, look, here's $10. Give me $10 worth of electricity. It's a switch. Oh, God. I had. I was frothing at the mouth and it was really, really hot. Everyone warned us New Zealand's really cold. Take lots of thick clothes. We were steaming. We hadn't got anything cool to wear. It was horrendously hot, though.

[Giles Parkinson]

Oh, dude, that's climate change for you, Robert. Yeah, look, I got caught at a charging station a couple of months ago and I was trying to use it and I couldn't work out which app I had to use and this little football team got off. Oh, electric vehicle charging.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Giles Parkinson]

Show us how that's done. I said, oh, yeah, it's pretty easy, actually. Until five minutes later, I'm still sort of going, they went off. Yeah. Had enough.

[Robert Llewellyn]

You know, I mean, it's a. You know, I don't blame anyone who's never had had, particularly here, because it has, thank God it's really moved on in the uk so we. They're now all new chargers are tapped to pay. So with your debit card, so you don't need anything special. You don't, you know, you can join and it will be a bit cheaper if you do and all that but you can at least always, always charge and they tend. They're now way more reliable and I think the, the, you know when you people see that, that you plug the car and you go and it just starts and in two seconds it's on and it's charging.

[Giles Parkinson]

It's got to be so easy.

[Robert Llewellyn]

It's got to be so easy. Anyway, we've gone off on a tangent. The thing that I've been. Oh yeah, so yeah, I wanted to talk about EV sales because I don't understand what's happening here, so. Because I've just literally heard yesterday that the EV sales in the UK in January in the uk, which like, why would you even go outside in January in the uk? But they've been way up on January last year, so really big noticeable increase, same in many European countries and are obviously insane in Norway. Well, they're then 98% of new car sales are now battery, not even hybrids, battery electric. That's pretty close to 100, isn't it? If my maths is not good. But 98 is most of them.

[Giles Parkinson]

Yeah, it's most of them, yeah. I think you can actually sort of count them. I think there's about 20 something petrol cars or diesel cars sold in Norway and you could probably, you know. Yeah, it's just ridiculous. Look, I'm not too sure what's happening on in Australia. Look, the overall new car market was down in January, but what we have seen in Australia, we've just seen this massive pushback over the last year or so, particularly by the Japanese LED manufacturers and they've really sort of had a stranglehold over the Australian market. You know, Toyota, Mazda, Honda, Mitsubishi and people like that. They've really pushed back at the new sort of vehicle emission standards which have been introduced by the Federal government. There's been a big brawl over that. It's caused a split in the peak body and so Tesla and Polestar have gone back to Electric Vehicle Council and the rest of the car lobby has sort of, you know, been pushing it back against these standards. They have been introduced. They're not as strong as some were hoped but they basically oblige car makers to sell a certain amount of electric vehicles or cut emissions over a year, period. Remarkably though, there's been this big campaign by these Japanese makers towards hybrid cars and I just think that Australian consumers have kind of bought the hybrid hype. Bought the hybrid hype. So we're seeing the mild hybrids.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Which.

[Giles Parkinson]

Have been popularized, you know, made popular by, by Toyota and the like and we're seeing the plug in hybrid suddenly become very popular. So the old Mitsubishi Outlander. And we're actually seeing a lot of interest in the BYD Shark Ute which is a plug in hybrid. And that's actually quite interesting because that seems to be a positive step because it's away from those horrible diesel and petrol utes. I mean, I'm not a big fan of plug in hybrids because I just think it overcomplicates things. It doesn't reduce emissions nearly as much as people think, but it could be useful in some circumstances. That's in the absence of any really compelling electric ute. Then a plug in hybrid Ute made by BYD seems like a step forward. I don't think of that in terms of, you know, sort of cars because I just don't think you need to not be electric. But. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's an interesting thing.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. I was just going to ask you about the, the sort of technology in the, the Ute. I should know this because I have heard about it. But is it, is it in a sense of. Because there's, that's the trouble. There's some really complicated terms with hybrids. There's a serial hybrid and the other. It. Does the petrol engine in the, in the, in the Ute, in the BYD Ute have a mechanical connection to the wheels? Because I've got a feet. Because that's the big difference. Because there are some, you know, there is, you could argue that there are hybrids that, you know, effectively range extenders. That's, I don't know, like the London, London taxis are range. They've got a motor in them, but it never drives the wheels. It power, it generates power that goes to the battery in the motor.

[Giles Parkinson]

You can't have to say embarrassingly that I've done it at the end of the question because I haven't actually gotten. I haven't got to drill it really yet.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But no, I'm going to have a go in one.

[Giles Parkinson]

Now look, on a broad thing, I think they're sort of, you know, claimed as being at least 100km of electric range, range of full electric range. You know, they've got recharging vehicle load and all that sort of thing and they're reasonably priced so they're probably at the same price or even cheaper than the most popular utes in Australia. And the best selling. Three of the best selling. Three of the four best selling cars of any sort in Australia are Utes. We're just obsessed with utes. I don't know, maybe we've got a lot of trades people, but it seems like a lot of people who don't have tools in the back like to buy a ute anyway because. Yeah, why not?

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes, yes. I'm like, I've got a long list of reasons why not, but they clearly wouldn't have any traction here at all. But yeah, no, that is, I mean it is a. I think I would say that's had a bigger impact in Australia than say in the uk. I mean we've had all the sort of self charging hybrids commercials and Toyota certainly have been a big come, you know, a big car company in the uk. But I'd say they're on the, they're on the wane now and it's the China definitely Chinese cars are taking over and there's more and more of them appearing. But I mean it's a, what's a shame from our point of view and it's very much my fault is I've been a little bit too publicly critical of Toyota's advertising campaigns in the uk. So our relationship with the PR company, the Toyota's PR arm is a little, it's a little strained. So we don't get.

[Giles Parkinson]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

So in that. Which is a shame because then you don't get to see what they are doing. So the, the, the car with the funny name BZ, it's Beyond Zero. Relentless. BZ stands for Beyond Zero. The 4x bit. What's that bit? I don't know what that is. That's, that's. So that's basically they built it in cahoots with an Australian beer company, Castle Main.

[Giles Parkinson]

Well, it could be. Or they've got four wheels, I don't know.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Oh, they've got four wheels, yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

[Giles Parkinson]

Yeah, no, we have, we have the similar problems with the, with, with the Toyota media machine. So. But, so we have another pleasure. So.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, but it's so obvious from just, just watching traffic in, in Sydney and Brisbane that Toyotas are incredibly common and incredibly. Must be a really big seller here. I mean they've really got the market.

[Giles Parkinson]

They, they have the market. Yeah, absolutely.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But one of the things now I've heard about and I know nothing about and I'm hoping you do know something about is that I. But I read head. I've only read the headlines about the fact that the government are seriously considering some form of vehicle to grid somewhere in Australia. That's about, that's the sum total of my knowledge of it. But is there any reality in that? Is there some talk of experimenting with it on a bigger scale or whatever?

[Giles Parkinson]

Yeah, look, we've had a few pilots with it and most of them are with the old sort of Chademo protocol with Nissan Leafs and a couple of Mitsubishi outlanders and things like that. So what happened late last year was that after sort of months and months and months and months of sort of discussions they agreed a new standard with the CCS2 technologies. So the standards have been agreed and it was said by the government that these will be available and in place by the end of the year. What we then saw was a couple of sort of proactive makers of the charging equipment coming out and saying oh we're here, we've got it, we can plug it in ready to go. But they haven't got final approval yet from the body set up to sort of vet these things and to make sure that they've actually met the standard. The other hurdle is, is we haven't actually heard that much from the car makers themselves about whether they're going to be happy to allow this to happen because there's issues about sort of existing cars, existing batteries, the effective warranties and things like that. A lot of people like Polestar and others said well we're compatible with via to Autogrid and things like that and go well that's very well. But when will actually happen? Won't really say. We've got issues with some of the network operators too because you've got to get their agreement because it sort of feeds into the grid and then you've also got things like with the retailers, energy retailers. So there's a few hurdles to go but basically one barrier has been removed. I think there's a few other barriers to happen. We're going to get the equipment in. We need the car makers to be quite explicit about what they're going to do and what equipment that they were agreed to work with and, and whether they'll, and what sort of warranty conditions they'll put in the battery. I mean they shouldn't really be putting many or any but we'll wait to see. So there's been another project has been outlined in South Australia but mostly with Mitsubishi outlanders with a plug in hybrid that's still on the old Chademo one, but we haven't actually seen anything with the CCS2 which is the dominant sort of protocol for modern electric vehicles. And I even heard that sort of Tesla is actually considering something.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right. Because they've always been a sort of opposed to it.

[Giles Parkinson]

Well, yeah, I mean they had a motivation not to agree because they want to sell powerwalls and, and things like that. A lot of it's got to do with whether the people have the inverters technology within the car system, electronics or whether it's sort of exterior how they mix that up. And I think Tesla's still wrestling with this idea about will they allow it and what circumstances. Maybe it needs to be coupled with one of their batteries, maybe it needs to be coupled with, you know, something else that they've got. And I think all the car manufacturers are still working that, that out. So we're not going to see mass market vehicle to grid in the next couple of months. Hopefully we'll see some rolling out by the end of the year and then hopefully in a few years time we'll see an awful lot of it and we'll start to see energy retailers and other aggregators actually promoting this as some sort of technology because the possibilities are just extraordinary, particularly when you've got in a country where, as I mentioned at the start, half of all our power needs will actually come from appliances and installations owned by households. So rooftop solar battery storage, electric vehicles, all the other different electrification in the house, which can be sort of dialed in and sort of timed and controlled demand response. So so much of what we need for the grid will come will be owned by households. But how do we design a system that 1 encourages them to do that, 2 makes it worthwhile for them to engage with the grid and three, respects them as a customer and a contributor because at the moment all that ticket is being clipped by the big energy companies on the way through. So the benefits of rooftop solar and things like that, you know, if you send it back into the grid in the middle of the day, you get paid 5 cents. If you borrow it back from the retailer, you're probably going to pay 40 cents or, you know, nearly six or ten times that much. And they justify that with all sorts of convoluted economic arguments and modeling and stuff like that. But the basic premise is that the householder feels ripped off and thinks he's not getting a fair share. And unless that that feeling can be addressed by proper regulation and proper respect for these assets, then we're not Going to get too far down that track.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right, yeah. No, that's a. Yeah. I mean, it is. It is a colossal technological opportunity which is absolutely riddled with. Incredibly complicated. Exactly. As you said, incredibly. Because that's exactly, exactly the case in the uk. Incredibly complex market arrangements and structures. And it's, you know, it's not. I don't think it. I don't think it is a technological problem or it's a very solvable technological problem, but how you market it, how you legislate for it is mind. But there's so many people who might be disadvantaged by it, and some of those people are very wealthy and powerful and have leverage in political circles. I think that's probably has quite a lot to do with it.

[Giles Parkinson]

There's a lot of vested interests of people who own networks, who own generators, who own energy retailers. And if you've ever seen the arguments and the submissions for these changes, even these oblique sort of really small changes in energy rules, and it's 150 pages long and there's about, you know, 150 submissions, and you try and work your way through that and you just go, oh, my God. Anyway, so. Death by submissions.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'd be interesting to hear what your. A proper journalist, unbiased take is on a potential. So you've got potentially an election coming up in the next few months. Am I. Yes. There's not been a date set yet, has there? I've not heard if there is.

[Giles Parkinson]

No, it has to be held, I think, by mid May. That's the last. So we don't actually have sort of fixed date elections as in many other countries. It's at the discretion of the government. They often go early for, because they see some advantage in doing so, or there's some blockage in Parliament. And we've been kind of waiting for the labor government to make a call. There was some speculation that might go as early as February, but that clearly, obviously hasn't happened. So the. I think the general expectation now is that they'll wait until May and we'll see how we go. I mean, the labor government, they're sort of ruling by, you know, one or two seats in the lower house, which is the decisive one. They've got to deal with a powerful crossbench in the Senate, and they're looking at best at a minority government because we've got the Greens and a new independent movement or group of independent people called the Teals.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes, yes. Now, I'm not aware of them.

[Giles Parkinson]

They're really interesting people, actually. And they may well hold the balance of power. So if labor or Liberals get to have the most seats, then they might have the opportunity to form a government. It's going to be really interesting to see what happens because I don't think the Greens and the Teals will want to deal with a Conservative government. The Conservative parties led by Peter Dutton seem to be sort of, you know, Trump light in the way that they're approaching everything thing. So they won't want to deal with them. But I'm not convinced either that the Labor Party and particularly its leader Anthony Albanese is willing or wanting to, to deal with him because he's like, this is a guy, he used to be my local member when I lived in his electorate and he hates these people with a passion and he just won't deal with them. I mean like he really, really, really, really, he doesn't like them. And I was reminded we were in Tasmania a year ago and a similar thing happened. The labor and the Liberals came really close in the election but neither of them had a majority and they saw a bunch of independents there that they could have talked to to try and form a minority government. And the labor leader said, made this wonderful speech. A lady, the woman, I can't remember her name now, she made this lovely speech which happened to be in the, in the radio, listening to, in the car, listening to the radio and I thought, oh, that's impressive. That seems, sounds, that sounds so reasonable, you know, and, and basically sort of raising the possibility of forming a minority government in certain conditions. A day later she was out of the job, sacked by central control, saying no, you will not have a minority government. So, wow, the Liberals now rule.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Oh, in Tasmania, do they?

[Giles Parkinson]

Right, yes, that's right.

[Robert Llewellyn]

So I mean, I think it'd be.

[Giles Parkinson]

Really interesting to see what happens here.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Oh, it's worth, it's worth reminding our listeners outside Australia that because so in the UK Liberals are the sort of very centrist, center left ish party and Liberals here are not.

[Giles Parkinson]

Well, they used to be center rightish but now they're really quite right wing. I mean anyone sort of described as a moderate has faded into the background or just left parliament and we're seeing, you know, another bunch and they're in coalition with something called the National Party which is ostensibly there to represent rural interests and farmers, but which in reality represents the mining industry and the coal industry in particular. And they are very much anti wind, anti solar, anti batteries, anti EVS, anti anything that was invented after about 1956 and you know, and starting to sort of, you know, you know, I don't want to get too much into politics and sort of Trump and Gaza, but you know, their leader said this, you know, the, the would be prime minister said that sounds like an interesting idea, right? Yeah. Okay. That's where we're going with this. Yes. Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But then, so like on a much lighter note, which I think is a really interesting, I think a story from Renew Economy. But, but I just thought this is really interesting because this is the, the background I think that you and I are always trying to highlight and promote is this company Brookfield Asset Management who are investing, you know, truly mind boggling sums in renewable energy installations and batteries. And you know, they are managing to sell that power to corporate interests because it's cheaper, you know, and they can also say it's green. Oh, we're very green. Our company is very green because we buy this. But the fact is it makes economic sense. So then you hear the arguments for like, you know, drill baby, drill. Yeah, go on, carry on, mate. No one cares. It's so expensive. You know, if the price of oil drops by a few cents now, no one's going to frack in America because it's just a waste of money. You're just throwing money down a hole. But that's really interesting that you know that I quite like it when clearly you know that, that you or I can have our own solar panels and we're all holier than that and we've got our electric car and we're all virtue signaling like mad down the road. There's a massive multi trillion pound investment group that are putting in solar panels because they make money, not because they are green or any, you know, any other business. It's a, it's capitalism in the raw.

[Giles Parkinson]

Yeah. And they're responding and they're saying that because it's true that the big industrial, industrial consumers want that clean energy and they want the cheap energy. And the obvious thing in Australia is wind and solar is the only thing that you can build quickly enough. There's a big push by the opposition parties here that they want to have nuclear and they think they can bring it in by 2035, which everybody else says is just ridiculous. It'll probably be another decade after that. But the big, you know, the future of some of Australia's big industrial assets actually depend on this transition. You know, Rio Tinto has made it clear, you know, they've got a big smelters up in Queensland. They've got these alumina refineries and they've got these other big energy consumption consumers in industrial centers and they're saying those are not going to continue beyond the rest of this decade unless we get wind and solar and lower. Behold. And they've already signed a couple of contracts with some gigawatt scale, you know, wind and solar farms, the biggest ever signed in Australia. But now those projects are in doubt because the new state government, which is lnp, which is conservative, have said no, we don't actually want this and we're going to subject them to more sort of policy approval. So you know, there's this big, there is this fig. You've got the Brookfields of the world saying yes, we can do this and we can roll it out as quick as, as quickly as we can because the, the demand from consumers and big industrial companies is, is there. But you're also getting this political interference on behalf, behalf of other vested interests who kind of erecting barriers.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, no, it's, it is, I mean it is a, you know, is disruptive technology and it disrupts some very big industries, isn't it? And so it's a kind of hardly, you know, it's, it's, it's bloody obvious in some ways. Yeah, but I mean it is because they've also, I mean we've been in touch with them a bit. We're trying to work out what we can do. Do with him. But I always forget his real name. Mr. Forest. Twiggy Forest.

[Giles Parkinson]

Andrew Forest.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Andrew Forest. Thank you. Who's the mining. I don't know why. Do you know why he's called Twiggy? I don't have no idea why but I don't know if that. Is that a cruel Australia?

[Giles Parkinson]

I'm just trying to, I'm just trying to think that now in fact. Yes. Interesting character. Yeah, he's an interesting character but I.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Mean he wants, he wants to, you know, electrify his entire mining floor fleet which is you're talking basically the biggest vehicles with wheels on the planet. And he wants them to all be. Well, he's got some of them I think already electric, aren't they? But that's, that's a kind of interesting mix of you know, in a sense two extremes. Although I just want to quickly say we all very much depend on mining. You and I wouldn't be talking to each other like this if some mining hadn't happened. It's pretty obvious.

[Giles Parkinson]

Well that's very true. And he's a very big miner, he's mostly iron ore and he wants to be an even bigger miner. Look, he is really interesting because he, he is like, you know, one of the richest people in Australia and he's just sort of calling it out. I mean he's basically, you know, let's, let's observe the science. He's very dismissive about net zero targets which other people have been using as excuse to delay action. He's talking about real zero. He wants the whole world to get to rezero by real zero by 2040. And he wants his own operations, mining operations to get to real zero by 2030. And as you say, that involves. They've already got these big excavators which are fully electric at their site. They've got these massive 264 ton trucks with a 10 megawatt hour charging station. No. Is it? No. Is it 6, 6 megawatts charging station? Sorry.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Wow. That's what goes through the wire into the batteries is 6 megawatts.

[Giles Parkinson]

Yes, that's right. So yeah, look, if he can get to real zero by 2030 as he sort of says he will, one, he will sort of get rid of annual consumption of about 2 billion liters of diesel a year which is currently used. So that'll save him like millions, millions of dollars.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Giles Parkinson]

And, and that'll just sort of show the way for the rest of the industry. And you can, you're actually starting to see those other big mining companies going oh, okay, we can move too. And that's the sort of leadership, at least on the corporate level that we really want to see. And, and look, he, he, he brought out the Williams racing team in, in, in the UK and they're doing some really interesting, amazing battery and stuff like that. He's developing something called the Infinity train, which is basically a train with a big battery. The iron ore mines are sitting up on the, on the, on the mountain and they'll come fully laden down the hill. By the time they get to the bottom, they've recharged the battery and the empty train can go back up the hill and start the whole thing over again.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Oh my God, that's incredible. I think that when you hear stuff like that you go, that is bonkers because I mean there's so many of those sort of weird experimental like gravity, gravity batteries and all those things all around the world and most of them never come to fruition. But occasionally someone with the, the science, scientific understanding and the money can actually make some of those crazy projects function, can't they? I mean it does, it has happened.

[Giles Parkinson]

Yes. It gives you some inspiration and some Hope that, you know, we still might be living in a habitable palette planet in, in a couple of decades time.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But I mean, just to go on about, I mean it's such an obvious one, the nuclear argument because, you know, we're doing it in the uk, it's all going gangbusters down at Hinkley Point C. But it's now, I can't remember how many years late it is, but it's, it's, it's probably a decade, it's probably 10 years later than it was meant to be finished and it's tens of billions of pounds over budget and it's the sister plant which is in Flamonville in France, France, which is exactly the same design, exactly the same position on a, on a coast. They started generating power and it was all working and then they stopped after about two months because there was a crack in something and they had to stop for safety reasons. And that's going to cost billions and billions of euros more to fix. And you go this, so for someone to say now we want nuclear power and it will be running by 2035, please go ahead, spend the entire nation's wealth trying to make that work. It's just, it's because, you know, I have nothing against nuclear energy. We should keep all of the stuff, the nuclear power station we got going now, we should keep them going, obviously. But it's so expensive and the electricity as a result is so expensive that by the time it's finished, you know, people at their houses go, I'm not buying that stuff. I'll make my own, I'll store it in my own batteries and I won't buy any. You know, it's daft, it's just a daft nation.

[Giles Parkinson]

Now look, I agree with you. Look, I used to live in Somerset and just down the road from the existing Hinkley reactors. I don't actually have a problem with the technology itself, but in Australia it kind of makes no sense. One what makes people think that they could build it as quickly as that is just daft. It's, we're so rich in wind and solar resources, we need, we need it now. And the proposal of the, you know, the conservatives here is to try and keep the coal fired power generators running until they could possibly build, build nuclear. But these are old, they're unreliable and they don't like the heat. And guess what, it's getting hotter, it's getting very hot, they're getting very old. And the market operators just made it very clear saying, look, if we Try hang on to these things too long, then we're just going to have blackouts and the costs will go up. It's just not a very smart idea here. But of course, now institutions like the market operator, you know, the, the grid experts and CSIRO are being attacked. It's sort of, it, it's, it's very sad to see. But.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, yeah, I'd forgotten that because I remember reading about that a couple years ago when I was here about how it just doesn't make any sense how coal plants don't operate very well in the heat. And you think, well, they're burning tons of coal, that's pretty warm. But they, they had real serious problems, haven't they, with high temperatures? And that's such a.

[Giles Parkinson]

Well, they've got problems with their cooling ponds and there just seems to be valves which just sort of, you know, dissolve and melt. Even with some of the gas generators, the things that you kind of depend on switching on in those huge summer heat waves, in late afternoon, as the rooftop solar starts to phase off, you want to switch on these peaking generators. And in some of the worst incidents, incidents we've seen, they just haven't been able to switch on, on. And what's really interesting now is that it's the batteries which are coming into class.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Well, that was what I'm just, that was a story I wanted to talk about because that, the fact that batteries are now the second biggest supplier of electricity is that. So is that after coal then? That would be, Is that what they've got? They've overtaken gas?

[Giles Parkinson]

Yes, in the peak period. So in that time, in the evening peaks, the early evening peaks when everyone comes home, so start switching things on in the house, put on their air conditioning, the rooftop solar started to phase out. So the evening peak when the big demand spikes and the supply starts to sort of contract because so much of our electricity during the day comes from solar, you need to switch on these sort of dispatchable generators. And it used to be just gas and hydro and now what you've seen is, now what you're seeing is batteries coming in number two between 6:00 and 7:30 in the evening after hydro. So they've overtaken gas and they've overtaken coal in those periods. It's really, really very interesting.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Wow. So it's after hydro. The two biggest ones then are hydro and batteries. Okay, that's incredible. Which also means at that peak time electricity is much cleaner than it would have been, say 10 years ago.

[Giles Parkinson]

Oh, absolutely, absolutely, yes. Yeah. And that's even before we are building so many batteries at the moment. So this time next year, year you might actually see battery storage overtake hydro and become the biggest provider at those critical moments in the, in those evening peaks which we're starting to see in California now. So California has about 10 gigawatts of battery capacity and you know, various durations. And we'll probably have a similar amount in Australia by the end of the year because we're building some really big batteries for a whole bunch of different reasons because they can do so many different things. But yeah, it's just really quite fascinating to see, see, to see that transition.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And how that impacts that is extraordinary because then it almost goes back to where we started from is that, that, you know, one of the, the, in fact the booming parts of the Tesla company is their power packs. You know, they're being, we're, we've got them in the uk. I mean they're, they're obviously a very, I would say, well, they're going to be the same in a sense as the cars. You know, the software will work, that they're, you know, that they're modular and you just put rows of them and they all join up together. You know, the technology, from what I've understood from a couple of people I spoke to, are involved in kind of that level of grid management. They go, well, they are, they're plug and play is how he described them. You know, you just stick them on the ground, wire them up and they start to work. That's.

[Giles Parkinson]

Yeah, they've actually called megapacks now. They've gotten bigger and bigger and bigger. Yeah, and yeah, no, they've, look, they, they probably the biggest in the market at the moment. There are actually a lot of competitors coming in now. But yeah, they're considered to be great, great technology. And they've played such a key role in the Australian transition. I mean you go back to 2017 after the South Australian blackouts in 2016 and basically, you know, Elon Musk in the famous tweet Twitter exchange with some people in Australia and we saw the Tesla big battery, which was the first large scale battery with Tesla machine. He said, I prom, I'll build it in 100 days or you get your money back. And, and he did, did and changed everything.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Those were the, do you remember? Those were the days when we could do positive Musk stories. Wasn't it glorious?

[Giles Parkinson]

Now we could do positive Tesla stories.

[Robert Llewellyn]

We can do positive Tesla stories. Yeah, I'm determined to keep doing positive Tesla stories. Yeah, it's very important. But one of actually. Well, we must wind it up in a minute. But one of the things you said then, which I can't believe I haven't heard before, which is Andrew Forrest, if that's. If he said that. But real zero, not net zero, is a really critically important thing because I get. I just sort of gave up thinking about what net zero meant it. But, you know, a very dull little alarm bell made me. Made me feel like it's probably a bit of a con, along with carbon capture and storage and clean diesel and, you know, gas is cleaner than coal. And all those arguments we've heard, you know, now they're so tired and sort of petty. You go, come on, guys. But there. So the idea of real zero, not net zero is quite a good argument. I just haven't heard it put in such succinct terms before.

[Giles Parkinson]

I think we should be. That's what we should be aiming for. Because I think net zero, I mean, Andrew Forrest says it's a con and I'm inclined to agree with that. Mainly because net zero relies on carbon capture. It relies on you getting credits for planting a few trees here and there. Look, planting trees is great, but a lot of those credits which are created are really doubtful and dubious and can't be relied on. And we should not be burning fossil fuels because we don't need to. It's going to be complicated in some parts of the economy, but. And net zero is. This thing in the Australian political debate is basically being used by some political people as, and literally admit this. We don't have to do that. We have to reach net zero by 2050. We will do that, but we'll start thinking about it in a couple of decades time. And so they're just. It's just an excuse used by some people just to kick the can down the road and. And not do very much. So I am actually very much in support of this. Real zero. Yeah, I think it's very important.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I'm getting my T shirt printed tomorrow. Real zero, not net zero. I mean, I don't. Is there. Have you got any other burning topics that you wish to bring to the table? Because I've sort of. Those are my key things I wanted to cover, which you've done brilliantly. Thank you so much. Dials. It's been really good.

[Giles Parkinson]

Oh, look, thanks. Look, it's been a pleasure. I think we've covered so much now and we have, you know, I'm getting old and exhausted, so. Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

No, that's very True. And I bet you've been surfing this morning already.

[Giles Parkinson]

No, I haven't. Do you know what came to. Now here's a funny story. Here's a funny story. We're actually in Sydney at the moment because we're waiting for our car to be repaired. While we were in Tasmania, our car, our Model Y was parked on the side of the street and a truck ran into it.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Wow. Okay. Oh proper.

[Giles Parkinson]

And another car.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Wow.

[Giles Parkinson]

Unfortunately some, some workers, the, the truck drive drove off and, and, and some workers hopped in their cars and chased it down and got his license. So we've got the insurance thing and my wife who owns the car was secretly hoping it was going to be a write off so she could then move to another brand. But it's, but it's not because the repairer told us these things are really hard to write off now. Which is really counterintuitive to what you hear in the ev in the mainstream media sort of saying oh, oh well as soon as there's a dent they write them off and they take them to the, to the car grave. And no, no, no, no, they're extremely hard to write off. So we're getting it back and we're gonna have to drive it back up the, up the highway tomorrow so we'll wave as we arrive in direction.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Because I, well I had it as I was thinking about you earlier this morning and I walked out of the door here. It's a very lovely overgrown Queensland garden's beautiful and it's not happened to me. I've done it ever before in any visit to Australia but I got completely covered in, you know, I can't even call it cobwebs. I'd call it a high tensile steel wire that stuck to my face and hands and I'm sort of going oh my God, there'd be some massive spider. I didn't see a spider but. And I've just been. There's still bits peeling off my skin. It's incredibly strong and sticky stuff. We have, we have webs in the UK that are the most pathetic fluffy stuff. I mean you just don't even notice it. But this was some serious webbage I walked into this morning. So I'm, I'm getting a bit of, you know, a bit of a refreshing Australian experience just to catch all the.

[Giles Parkinson]

Very big flies and mosquitoes that we have.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Must be, I mean some of them weigh two or three kilos the flies here. They're bloody enormous. I'm sitting, yes. Oh well, well that's good oh, well, I hope you get to surf again soon. I'm sure you will. And. And what? I will see you in early March in Sydney.

[Giles Parkinson]

Indeed. No, that'd be fantastic.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Looking forward to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Giles Parkinson]

Thanks very much for having me on.

[Robert Llewellyn]

No, it's been. It's been great, Charles. Thank you so much for all your. Your wisdom and knowledge. It's been really good to. You've clarified lots of confusion for me. It's been great. Thanks very much. See you soon.

[Giles Parkinson]

I'm still confused, but anyway.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Really hope you enjoyed that. Don't want to harp on about it too much, but seriously, everything electric in Sydney, 7th, 8th, 9th of March, really worth going to. If you're anywhere near. If you're anywhere near Australia, basically, it's worth going and clearly Giles will be there. That's all we've got time for this week. We're going to be talking to lots of other fascinating people, people in the next coming weeks on the podcast. Please do tell your mates about it. That's always a good way of doing it. And subscribe if you haven't. I'm sure you have. And as always, if you have been, thank you for listening.