Has London Cracked the Code on Electric Vehicles?! |Everything Electric Podcast with Michael Hurwitz

Summary

Everything Electric Podcast: Has London Cracked the Code on Electric Vehicles?! Episode with Michael Hurwitz | Released July 21, 2025

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of the Everything Electric Podcast, host Robert Llewellyn welcomes Michael Hurwitz, a seasoned expert in the electric vehicle (EV) and sustainable transport sectors. Michael brings nearly two decades of experience, having played pivotal roles in both government initiatives and the private sector to drive the adoption of green and smart transportation solutions in the UK and particularly in London.

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1. Michael Hurwitz's Background and Career

Timestamp: [00:05]

Michael Hurwitz begins by outlining his extensive career:

• Government Initiatives: Michael worked with the Office of Zero Emission Vehicles (Ozev), where he was instrumental in shaping the UK's first low carbon transport strategy. He led national programs on electric vehicles, driverless cars, and biofuels, navigating challenges like the Dieselgate scandal.

  "I wrote the UK's first low carbon transport strategy and set up and led the UK's program on electric vehicles." ([04:25])

• Transport for London (TfL): Transitioning to the local level, Michael served as Innovation Director at TfL, overseeing the electrification of London's transportation fleet, including the introduction of over 2,000 electric buses and thousands of electric taxis.

  "At TfL, I led the planning of London's EV infrastructure rollout and electrified the buses." ([04:53])

• Private Sector and Consulting: After TfL, Michael ventured into the private sector, co-founding EV Challenger Arrival and later joining PA Consulting to lead their Clean and Smart Mobility division.

  "Since 2022, I've been a partner at PA Consulting, advising global investors and fleets on transitioning to clean and smart mobility." ([06:32])

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2. London's Transformation to Electric Vehicles

Timestamp: [02:31] - [07:26]

Robert highlights London's remarkable turnaround in air quality, attributing significant improvements to the city's shift towards electric transportation. Michael confirms the measurable progress:

"Cumulatively, over the five-year period, NOx oxides were 24% lower and particulates were 29% lower." ([08:25])

He emphasizes that these changes have not only improved air quality but also addressed equity concerns, as marginalized communities often bear the brunt of pollution.

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3. Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) and Its Impact

Timestamp: [07:26] - [19:24]

Introduction of ULEZ: Michael explains the implementation of the Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) in central London, initiated in 2019 to curb vehicle emissions.

"The headline is that petrol and diesel cars from certain years onwards must comply with high emission standards to enter the zone." ([08:24])

Impact on Emissions: The ULEZ has led to a significant reduction in harmful emissions:

"NOx oxides are 24% lower, particulates 29% lower, and in some parts of London, NOx reduction is up to 39%." ([08:24])

Equity and Controversies: While ULEZ has been effective, it has also faced criticism regarding its impact on lower-income individuals who may struggle to afford newer, compliant vehicles.

"Forcing you to change a car is a big expense, especially if you're on the edge of the emission standards." ([17:42])

Future Extensions: Michael notes that while there are consultations underway regarding the future of exemptions and charges, expanding ULEZ will require careful political and social considerations.

"It's a brave decision to expand ULEZ, and there's ongoing consultation about maintaining van discounts." ([18:52])

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4. EV Infrastructure Challenges in London

Timestamp: [19:24] - [28:15]

Charging Infrastructure: One of the major challenges discussed is the lack of off-street parking in London, which complicates access to EV charging for many residents.

"Approximately 70% of Londoners don't have access to off-street parking, making home charging unattainable for a large portion of the population." ([26:14])

Solutions and Innovations: Michael highlights TfL's collaboration with Fastned to develop up to 25 rapid charging hubs across the city, strategically placed where there is available land and sufficient grid power.

"Transport for London owns significant land and has partnered with Fastned to build rapid charging hubs." ([27:01])

Economic Factors: The cost structure of EV charging is another hurdle. Michael explains how VAT rates and standing charges impact the affordability and scalability of charging infrastructure.

"Domestic electricity is charged at 5% VAT, but commercial rates are at 20%, complicating the economics for charging stations." ([29:35])

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5. Battery Technology and Cost Trends

Timestamp: [28:15] - [33:56]

Advancements in Battery Technology: Battery costs have plummeted by over 90%, and energy density has nearly doubled since the early days of EV development.

"Battery costs have decreased by more than 90%, and energy density has almost doubled." ([21:11])

Longevity and Reliability: Innovations are also enhancing battery life and reducing degradation, with some manufacturers like CATL developing batteries with minimal degradation over 90 years.

"There are techniques now being applied to hugely mitigate battery degradation, allowing batteries to last much longer." ([21:19])

Economic Imperatives: As battery costs decrease and operational efficiencies improve, electric vehicles become more financially attractive, even for low-mileage applications like urban delivery vans.

"Electricity is generally cheaper, so despite lower mileage in dense cities like London, the total cost of ownership often favors EVs." ([12:08])

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6. Grid Capacity and Energy Storage

Timestamp: [33:56] - [47:57]

Current Grid Status: The UK's National Grid has an installed capacity of about 116 GW but typically only uses around 60 GW at peak times.

"The UK grid installed capacity is approximately 116 GW, but only about 60 GW is used at peak times." ([46:41])

Future Needs: Projections indicate that by 2050, grid capacity will need to approach 400 GW to support the electrification of transport and increased renewable energy usage.

"By 2050, the grid capacity needs to reach closer to 400 GW." ([47:14])

Energy Storage Solutions: To manage the intermittency of renewable energy sources, the UK requires around 38 GW of storage capacity, which can be achieved through hydro, large-scale batteries, and vehicle-to-grid technologies.

"The UK needs about 38 GW of storage to provide demand response and flexibility." ([47:52])

Vehicle-to-Grid Integration: Electric vehicles can play a crucial role in energy storage and grid stability. By intelligently charging and potentially discharging back to the grid, EVs can help balance supply and demand.

"A small selection of EVs, regularly plugged in at night, can contribute significantly to grid stability." ([49:11])

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7. Consulting Role and Future of EV Fleets

Timestamp: [24:44] - [51:17]

Advising Stakeholders: In his role at PA Consulting, Michael advises a diverse range of clients, including global investors, fleet operators, chargepoint companies, and startups, on transitioning to clean and smart mobility.

"I work with global investors and fleets to make the shift to clean and smart mobility operationally and commercially viable." ([06:32])

Economic Case for EVs: Michael presents compelling economic arguments for businesses to adopt EVs, focusing on total cost of ownership, which often favors electric over diesel due to lower fuel and maintenance costs.

"Electricity is cheaper, and EVs have lower maintenance costs, making them a financially sound choice for businesses." ([12:08])

Scalability and Impact: Using Lloyds Banking Group as an example, Michael illustrates the massive potential impact of fleet electrification on energy consumption and the grid.

"If Lloyds Banking Group were to electrify their 1.1 million vehicles, it would consume approximately 2.4 TWh of electricity annually." ([45:58])

Future Prospects: The integration of EV fleets with grid technologies, such as smart charging and vehicle-to-grid systems, is poised to revolutionize energy management and sustainability in urban environments.

"As battery technology and grid integration advance, EVs will increasingly contribute to grid stability and energy efficiency." ([50:00])

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8. Air Quality and Health Impacts

Timestamp: [38:15] - [41:08]

Health Statistics: Poor air quality remains a significant health issue in the UK, contributing to thousands of deaths annually.

"Air quality in the UK is responsible for approximately 28,000 to 36,000 deaths each year." ([39:28])

Personal Anecdotes: Robert shares a poignant story about Kissy Deborah, the first individual in the UK to have air pollution listed as a cause of death, underscoring the human cost of environmental neglect.

"Kissy Deborah was the first to have air pollution as the cause of death on her death certificate." ([40:06])

Ongoing Concerns: Despite improvements, the fight against air pollution continues, with ongoing measurements and studies highlighting the persistent risks to public health.

"Professor Chris Whitty reported significant morbidity linked to air quality, emphasizing the need for continued action." ([39:30])

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9. Future Challenges and Conclusion

Timestamp: [51:17] - [55:30]

Maximizing EV Utilization: Michael emphasizes the importance of leveraging the fact that most vehicles are not in constant use to benefit the grid through smart charging and energy trading.

"Vehicles are in use only about 50-60% of the time, presenting opportunities for grid integration and energy management." ([51:37])

Policy and Economic Incentives: For sustained progress, policies must focus on reducing energy costs and incentivizing businesses to adopt EVs not just through regulations but also through economic benefits.

"Lowering energy costs is crucial to unlock the full potential of EV adoption and grid benefits." ([51:17])

Technological Integration: The future lies in sophisticated systems where EVs, especially fleets, interact seamlessly with the grid, providing both mobility and energy solutions.

"Future mobility involves vehicles that can both consume and supply energy, enhancing grid flexibility and sustainability." ([53:03])

Closing Remarks: The episode concludes with a reflection on the tremendous progress made in London's EV transformation and a hopeful outlook on overcoming the remaining challenges through innovation, policy, and collaboration.

"The transformation in London is amazing, but there are still miles to go, especially when compared to cities like Shanghai." ([38:15])

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Key Takeaways

• Substantial Progress: London's shift to electric buses, taxis, and delivery vehicles has significantly improved air quality.
• Policy Impact: ULEZ has been effective in reducing emissions, though it presents equity challenges that require careful handling.
• Infrastructure Challenges: Limited off-street parking in London poses significant hurdles for widespread EV adoption.
• Technological Advancements: Continued improvements in battery technology and grid integration are essential for future scalability.
• Economic Imperatives: Lowering energy costs and demonstrating the financial benefits of EVs are crucial for broader business adoption.
• Health Benefits: Reducing air pollution through electrification has profound positive impacts on public health.

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Notable Quotes

• Michael Hurwitz on ULEZ Impact:

  "Cumulatively, over that five-year period, NOx oxides were 24% lower particulates, I think 29% lower." ([08:25])

• On Battery Advancements:

  "Battery costs have decreased by more than 90%, and energy density has almost doubled." ([21:11])

• On Air Quality and Health:

  "Air quality in the UK is responsible for approximately 28,000 to 36,000 deaths each year." ([39:28])

• On EVs as a Solution:

  "Vehicles are in use only about 50-60% of the time, presenting opportunities for grid integration and energy management." ([51:37])

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Conclusion

This episode provides a comprehensive look into London's ambitious journey towards becoming an electric vehicle hub. Michael Hurwitz's insights illuminate the successes achieved, the challenges that remain, and the technological and policy-driven paths forward. For anyone interested in sustainable transportation and the intricate dance between urban planning, technology, and environmental stewardship, this dialogue offers valuable perspectives and food for thought.

Transcript

[Robert]

Hello and welcome to the Everything Electric podcast. This week's guest, really interesting man. I've known him for quite a few years. He used to work for Ozev. That's when I think I first met him. The Office of Zero Emission Vehicles which was a British government run arm of government to encourage and develop the uptake of electric vehicles of all site of all types. That was many years ago, that was not recently. He's since worked for TfL Transport for London where he introduced now over 2000 electric buses. The introduction of electric taxi cabs of which there are now, I don't even know, probably tens of thousands in London. The encouragement of fleets to use electric delivery vans and trucks in central London. What's happened in central London is remarkable. Turnaround in air quality really is noticeable. London used to be, you know, one of the dirtiest cities in Europe. It's a big city, millions of people live in London and hundreds of thousands of diesel trucks, vans, buses were on the roads every day in London and it could really stink. It was really bad. That has just been transformative. How, how much that's changed. And this guest was very much at the very epicenter of all those decisions. He's also just an extraordinary man and his knowledge of how you can facilitate charging in cities, how people who don't have anywhere to charge out, you know, they can't park a car off the street at their homes, all those things are very much at the forefront of our discussion. So I think it's a really fascinating topic. Before we dive into that, can I just say that we've been now going over 15 years, years. We're hugely grateful to the response that we've had for this show over the years. Anyway, that's enough. Please welcome to the Everything Electric podcast, Michael Hurwitz. Our three free YouTube channels on EVs and cleantech are funded by our fun packed test drivetastic events in Farnborough, London, the southwest, the North, Melbourne and Sydney. And nextup we're in Canada for Everything Electric Vancouver and new for UK viewers. You can now buy a battery, EV and much more at @everythingelectric store.

[Host]

So Michael, thank you so much for finding time to do this. I'm going to be, I think we should be honest about it. We've recorded this podcast once before with the aid of, I'm not going to mention their name, a world leading audio visual electronics brand and we recorded something in their wonderful studios and it was all marvelous and none of it worked. They had one job and they let us down and so we got. It's not. That was a few weeks ago.

[Michael Hurwitz]

It's a pleasure to talk to you again though.

[Host]

Well, that's very kind of you and vice versa. So I really do appreciate it though, because it is. That was an extra frustration. But can you kick us off then with a quick resume of what you've done and how you've. What? Yes, your career. I just don't like using the word career because I've never had one. I don't know what they are. But you have. So can you tell us about your career?

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, sure. Well, thank you for having me here. So look, I guess the headline is that for nearly 20 years now I've been lucky enough to have led some of the UK's biggest shifts to green and smart transport. And that's either through high impact programs in government, so nationally or here in London, but also in the private sector. So is startups and bigger commercial organizations. So the steps on the journey. I'd started in the private sector but then I moved into national government and I guess it was like as the ex private sector guy and I became the most senior government official on clean energy and future tech in transport. So I wrote the UK's first low carbon transport strategy. I set up and led the UK's program on electric vehicles. I did the same on driverless cars. My remit was also biofuels, giving out R D funding and then regulating the automotive industry, including at some interesting times like Diesel Gate.

[Host]

Yes.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And then I went to Transport for London, so innovation director there. So I led on.

[Host]

Can I just explain? So previously your. You were sort of, you were working in the national government as a civil servant. That was your role. I mean I just want to. Just for people overseas might wonder if you were an elected representative, but you were, you were work for the government. And then TFL is Transport for London, which is the local London Transport Authority.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Exactly right. Integrated transport.

[Host]

I've got that right.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. And so yeah, I mean in a way, same kind of stuff, but a sort of megacity rather than national level. So micro mobility, so E bikes and E scooters, planning the capitals EV infrastructure rollout, electrifying the buses. We ran a bunch of really cool innovation projects. But I was also involved in the crisis management mechanisms at Transport for London. So I was something called a Gold Commander for major incidents and that particularly during COVID that kept me really busy. We set up this big temporary field hospital in the Excel exhibition center called the Nightingale Hospital, which was an interesting time. So yeah, so at this point though, at the end of my time at tfl, I was itching to get back in the private sector because I've done this sort of market creation side of it. I'm quite mission driven about this agenda and I genuinely believe to shift the dial, you do need creative businesses to make things happen on the ground. So I rolled the dice. I had my startup adventure with the EV Challenger arrival, which is quite a wild ride. Maybe we can talk about it. But since 2022 I've been a partner at PA Consulting and I lead part of their business called Clean and Smart Mobility. So that is advising global investors, ambitious fleets, some of the big government programs, chargepoint operators, technology, energy and startups on how do you make this shift to clean the smart mobility actually happen? So it sort of moved from vision into okay, how can we get this operationally commercially working? So that's, that's me so far.

[Host]

But I mean that's what, what is fascinating about that is in that period. So for people who don't live in the UK or haven't been to London, I think it would be fair to say that 20 years ago London wasn't like super toxic city. It wasn't like horrendous because we'd stopped burning coal in the city many years before that. But you know, it was certainly, there was, it was very noticeable air pollution from road transport, you know, you could smell it. And if you didn't live in London and you arrived at like Euston Station, Paddington Station, you go, bloody hell. Yeah, it was noticeable, you know, and it was, it was pretty toxic. And I must, I've got to say now, and I've just been in London over the last weekend. It's, it's really transformational. I mean it really is a noticeable difference. So you've had a real, I mean I know it's not just you, but there's a definite impact it's had. The air. Well, I think it's measurable, isn't it? The air is definitely clear in London.

[Michael Hurwitz]

No, I mean it is. And by the way, I've heard other people say that as well. Friend of my brother in law, he's living in South America and he came back after like 18 years and I said, what's changed? You know, because there's so many new developments.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And it was like, it's quiet.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And it's clean, you know, and like everything, and he felt like everything's gone electric. I mean, I guess we'll, we'll come on to talk about the the ultra low emission zone. Right. Maybe that's, that's a good thing to start with, but it's quite a controversial policy and it started in 2019. I didn't lead it. There were some great colleagues at TFL that did that, but it happened when I was there and headline is that you need a car, if it's a petrol gasoline car, has to be from 2006 onwards and if it's a diesel, it needs to be from 2015 onwards. So it gets, you know, reasonably high level of emission standards. And last year they did the monitoring report on it and it's really made a difference. So.

[Host]

Right.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Cumulatively, over that five year period, NOx oxides, nitrogen were 24% lower particulates, I think 29% lower. And in year, depending on where you were in, in London, it was I think 33 to 39% lower knocks than it was. So. So yeah, you know, you probably can smell the particulates going down.

[Host]

Yes.

[Michael Hurwitz]

But overall it's better and there's a good equity angle on that actually as well because often it's the most deprived areas that have the worst impacts. So that's part of the argument. But it is controversial and you know, I've been out of TFL for a while now and you sort of see the amazing thing about TFL and the mayor and the mayors is that they're happy to be brave and they're happy to be strong. You know, like these, these are, they're quite, they can be quite polarizing, these policies, but they've stuck with them and they've done it. And it's not just on emissions, right. You know, talking about transport, they've reallocated a lot of road space to cycling, cycling and walking. And here's a fact for you, the Tube Underground, London underground network is 402km long.

[Host]

Right. That's all the different lines.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, all the different lines. Last year, end of last year, 2024, the length of cycle lanes overtook that.

[Host]

Wow.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Amazing, you know, which is amazing. And there's half a billion cycling trips now a year in London, which is, you know, it's not, it's not like northern Europe, certain cities there, but it's growing.

[Host]

It's transformed though, from when I used to live in London and cycled everywhere.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, yeah, totally. And, but you know, it is, I would say that it's very, very human centered the way TFL does its strategies. But if I was to offer one thing, there's two things I was very good at talking about strategies for people but in a city you have to move a lot of stuff. Freight servicing, which I don't think always gets the priority and it's really good at the sticks side of it. You need to be brave, you need to sticks sometimes. I kind of wish there might be a little bit of carrot. I do a lot of work now with fleets and you know, if you look at like last mile deliveries in London, you know, huge growth in that. It's not just, yeah, it's not just deliveries, you know, responsible for the vans. There's like servicing, you know, you're like plumbers and you know, electricians and stuff. But if you help these companies work out their like, their asset strategy. When are they going to shift from diesel to electric? Yeah, one of the key drivers. It's a completely unemotional decision. It's commercial and finance and operation, that's it. And they look at the total cost of ownership of moving from one type to another. And normally because electricity is cheaper, if you do more miles, you're spending less money on diesel. It's a great idea. But in a place like London, it presents a really interesting challenge because it's so dense the delivery van will come out of the depot and it'll drive around and do its 130 drops in a day or whatever it is. You do like 20 miles because it's so dense and you're actually not doing enough mileage to get necessarily all the benefit that you could in other places. And the congestion charge for Ulez, you do get that there's a discount for electric. There was actually an exemption for electric and TFL was meant to end that this year.

[Host]

Right?

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah.

[Host]

This is for electric delivery vans, not private cars.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, yeah, well, also for cars, as you know, it was meant to end this year and I mean, I'm really pleased they are now consulting that maybe we don't turn it off altogether.

[Host]

Right.

[Michael Hurwitz]

But they're saying, well, maybe we keep the van discount to 50%. I'm a bit worried it's not enough because, you know, the market hasn't produced enough vans and you know, very low margin businesses, highly optimized and I think they might need a little bit more chucked at it to make the decisions. Right. So anyway, but look, yeah, TFL is great and it is brave and it does things that, you know, are often the envy of the world. But yeah, it's, I would say a few more carrots I think would be.

[Host]

Yes, would be, would be handy. But I mean it is, it is that, you know, the, the Change is very noticeable. And I mean, I've. I'm not sure of it, but it's certainly a. Something that's happening in many European cities. You know, the same kind of basic trajectory. Paris being obvious. Amsterdam is very good. I think Berlin has done a lot of that. But more recently New York, which I'm really interested because you'd think that would be the hardest place to instigate anything. But they've instigated quite a lot of legislation recently that has become very, very popular with the people who live there and very unpopular with people who drive into Manhattan. So I think they have put some restrictions on driving in Manhattan, but I don't know enough about it too.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, well, I mean, there tends to be a thing where any major intervention that jolts people out of what they used to do.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Is resisted and. But in the end, you know, there will be government analysis. They'll talk about benefits and dis. Benefits, you know, but this benefits is like things that, you know, don't go well. But, you know, you do often find like one of the key things and it's in most places where it's happened where. Where you pedestrianize areas, there's a real sense of fear before it happens for local businesses.

[Host]

Right.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And more often than not, not exclusively, but more often than not, it's just reshaped in a different way and you have higher footfall but less vehicular traffic. And, you know, in doing Times Square in New York, that was pretty brave.

[Host]

That's pretty close, the whole thing.

[Michael Hurwitz]

But the place feels so different now. Yeah. And has a different quality, so. Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Because actually on when it was that Saturday afternoon, my wife and I were in London and we went to an art exhibition, like a. Like proper boomers should do. And then we walked it. We just were going to. Going to see a friend and we walked across Regent street, which had been closed because of pride. And it was so lovely.

[Michael Hurwitz]

It was so amazing.

[Host]

I mean, it's sort of painfully obvious, but if you have a big wide street like that in the center of a city, there were thousands of people walking up, down. There was no traffic at all. There were no buses even. They must have rerouted the buses because I know that's a popular bus route. And it just was transformative and you can't help it. As a pedestrian, you go. I don't care about the complexities right now and how difficult this is and how much it's making lives awkward for other people. That is taxi drivers, bus drivers, et cetera. This Is really nice.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, no, it's. But again, it's that equity point. Equity is not just about people. I mean, it's obviously about people. Not everyone can walk. Right. And yes, people need the vehicles, but actually part of that wider equity is the emergency services and the, and the servicing and the supply to those shops and cafes and restaurants and. Yeah, and the waste and moving aggregates in and out for building and, you know, so it's, it's a tough balance. And I think, yeah, if you want to have a people centered city that people want to come and live at and live in, you want to make it human centered, but you've also got to find a way of dealing with fitting all that other stuff in there as well. So. Yeah, it's a tough gig being an urban planner. Yeah.

[Host]

Oh, it's got to be. It's got to be horrendous. I mean, what were the sort of major resistances when Ulez. ULEZ stands for Ultra Low Emission Zone. Just remember to explain what those mean. Which, but what were the main pushbacks when that was first introduced? Was it, I mean, was there any kind of trade group? Was it taxi drivers, was it delivery people? Was it angry bankers who wanted to drive their Range Rovers?

[Michael Hurwitz]

Well, do you know something? Everyone has an opinion and everyone has a view of how it could be done. I think some of the hardest bits were it was the, it was the equity side of it, you know, so if, if you have a geographical based system, you have to draw a boundary somewhere.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And it's the people who are just on one side, just in or just out, you know, that. Hold on a minute. I can't do what I used to do now without paying. But, you know, but for example, through that consultation, you know, there's. For the congestion charge, for example, you know, resident discount is one of the things, you know, they get a big discount if you're in the area. But yeah, I would say that's probably the biggest thing is that the people that just fall the wrong side of.

[Host]

A line right on the edge of it.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And particularly if you're in a, you know, if you've got less money to play with.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Forcing you to change a car is a big expense. You know, even, even if the majority of cars are secondhand, it's still. Yeah, it's still hard to do. So, yeah, I would say that's probably the big one.

[Host]

So, I mean, is there, are there plans to extend it though? So at the moment. So at the moment it would be what I would describe as the center, the central part of London is the Ulez zone. And then is the congestion zone bigger than that? I'm not, I'm absolutely.

[Michael Hurwitz]

No. So the congestion charge is the central. Right, right.

[Host]

That's very central.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah. So that's, that's an extra 15 pounds. They're talking about increasing the amount per day. So that's, that's really central London. And then the wider one is the ultra low emission zone. It's not quite, but it's quite close to the, the M25 is a highway motorway that goes in London. It doesn't go all the way out to it, but it's most of that area of Greater London.

[Host]

Right, so that's the bigger area.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yes, that's the bigger area. Look, as far as I'm aware, not at the moment, I'm not, I'm not in, I'm not in the gang anymore.

[Host]

Yes, you're not in the room whether.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, exactly. But all I do know is that it is, you know, it's a big decision and a brave decision to expand it. And yeah, there will be a very careful political judgment about when the conditions are right to do anything more ambitious. At the moment they're consulting on what happens to the exemptions and the future charges. So that's probably enough political debate for the next few months.

[Host]

But I mean, in some ways I suppose it could also be, you know, this is, over the next 10 years, the, the improvements that I certainly witnessed in terms of battery technology in particular when I was in China, the cost and the, you know, the energy density of the next generation of batteries could mean that a delivery van that could replace a diesel is actually cheaper to buy anyway and it's much cheaper to run and it will last longer. You know, those economic imperatives might start to make people go, we'll have electric anyway because it's better rather than we've been forced.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Oh, I mean, I think, yeah, it's going to get there. I mean, we've spoken about this kind of stuff before, you know, but like, you know, the battery, it's already sort of tracking 90% lower battery cost than it was.

[Host]

Extraordinary.

[Michael Hurwitz]

I mean, like, we've been speaking about London, but like when I was in national government, I remember in the early days, you know, this is the beginning of the low carbon transport program. I remember having a study done about, okay, where could batteries be applied? Because it looked that, you know, if you're looking at a curve that somebody says is going to go down and down and down, you're not quite sure, but we did this study. It must have been published. Will have been published by Ricardo. They're the engineering consultants. And broadly speaking the exam question was, okay, cars, Yeah, I can see vans. I can see for a heavy goods vehicle, how heavy would the battery need to be and how much would it cost to have a, like a truck, long distance truck have the same range. You know, in Europe it's about 40 tons. These vehicles. The answer was 40 tons of battery.

[Host]

So you have to double the weight of the truck.

[Michael Hurwitz]

You know, clearly ridiculous but you know, since then, energy density almost doubled.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

You know, battery costs down more than 90%.

[Host]

Yeah, because I mean that's the other thing. Back then the cost of that battery, if you did buy a 40 ton battery would be mind boggling. It would be in the millions.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, absolutely. But also the reliability, you know, there's been, there's been this kind of tradition like this growth curve. Every year it's got better and better and better. Like the amount of degradation reduces. But in the last couple of years, you know, there's, you know, catl have been talking about this sort of no degradation battery on, on lfp, those batteries, there's various techniques now they're starting to apply to, if not completely remove but hugely mitigate battery degradation. So these things are going to last a lot longer than anyone ever thought.

[Host]

90 years. That's what they're talking about. A useful life of 90 years, which is.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah. So yeah, so look, if all things remain equal, who knows what's going to happen globally with tariffs and stuff. If the flow of, if the flow of batteries can, can, can be maintained and could be produced maybe more locally at good prices then yeah, for sure. I think the point that you were talking about, it will just become better for a lot of people. It's. Yeah, I mean it's not, it's not better for everyone yet. It really isn't, you know, and, but.

[Host]

It'S about, I mean the way you, you know, the way you explain that, you know, because if you don't work in that industry, you don't know about how deliveries work. You know, you're just in your house and a van pulls up and they give you a parcel, you know, but the actual logistics involved in that and how, how the short distances they travel, you know, initially you might think, well that's fine because electric vehicles can all do that. But that isn't the point because you're, you know, you're not, you're not taking, you're not getting the advantages of an electric vehicle when you're driving 15, 20 miles. Stop, start. I mean, there are a lot of advantages, I think, but is it that the actual fuel use of a diesel is much lower when you're doing that and you're not thrashing up and down a motorway? I mean, I'm guessing that might be.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, that's one of the key things. That's one of the key things. I mean, look, there's, you know, there's various things. How much does servicing, maintenance and repair, you know, smr. How much does that cost? You know, there's a lot less to go wrong on, on an electric van, which is a potential benefit at the moment, maybe because of a maturity of the insurance industry or, you know, the, the progress of the, of the, like, maintenance industry is not necessarily used to this technology. So when things do go wrong big. When they do go wrong with electric, they think it's big, you know, And I think, oh, gosh, you know, I don't. I don't know what to do with that battery. That's right. The whole vehicle off, you know, so there's actually a higher. There's a high percentage of EVs currently being written off after an incident than ICE. Whether or not that's necessary may or may not always be the case. So you're finding that there's a whole series of parameters to it. But the big thing, the big thing is fuel costs is a massive saving. Although again, in the uk, electricity is higher than horribly expensive.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But then, so now you're. You're working in a consulting role and that is. So are you presumably then talking to different companies about. And we're talking, you know, the fleets that you're talking about. This is. This is mainly like delivery fleet. Is that. Is that the area that you're dealing with?

[Michael Hurwitz]

That is some of it. So that's some of it. You know, it's all sizes and then it's all the way along the value chain. So it's, you know, some of the big, like leasing entities, you know, like, who finance all the vehicles on the road. Like, really big deal for them about how. Yeah, it's a really big deal for them about how you change your whole ecosystem if everything's powered differently, you know, do they engage in the right way? So, yeah, so then the chargepoint operators, a lot of investors, you know, who do you pick? Who's going to win? Yeah, you know, and this is an emerging market, right. So a lot of bets were made a few years ago. So there's the work with. Unfortunately, some of the companies are going to win, some of them are not going to win. And so it's a question of, like, you know, for the companies themselves, how do you get them fit enough to be the ones to survive for the investors, how do you pick the winners? How do you tweak the strategy so it's more resilient? But yes, it's all along the value chain, from financing the vehicles to running the vehicles to dealing with the customer relationships, to managing the energy for them for the future. Tech that enables the whole system and then. Yeah. And then other stuff like driverless as well. So. Yeah, so it's all along the future mobility value chain at the moment. Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Well, I was only going to say that London is a good example of. I don't know what the percentages are. I know the national percentage is it's about 60, 40. So 60% of UK households, you can park a vehicle off the street and 40% you can't. That's a government figure I remember from a while ago. So that may have changed, I don't know. But in London it's got to be 85%. You don't. You park your vehicle on the street. I mean, it's very cheap, more or less flip.

[Michael Hurwitz]

So, gosh, it was the, the RAC foundation did a study. I think they said something like 30 have access to off street in London versus 70% don't. And it's. And that's a real issue. You know, the, the, the key, one of the key squeeze squeezing points in London is land, accessibility to land.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And yeah, interestingly, you know, these things take time. Gosh, credit to the team that ran it now, Alex and the team there, but we did some analysis a while ago to say, like, well, what's needed on the EV infrastructure? And if you look at, well, where is available land? Like, where is Greater Lind Authority and tfl where they own land? Where is it in a good place that might be attractive for charging? Where does the grid have power? If you layer up these things. And Transport for London is actually a really big landlord and they've done a deal with Fastnet, right, to. To build. Well, it's up to 25 rapid charging hubs, places on the network because. Exactly. The reason you're saying is that for a lot of people, if you're living in a flat, if you're living in like London terrace housing, you're not going to have your driveway. And so there needs to be another solution. So, yeah, so the Real premium in London is land, but there's a whole range of things and we're into governments, like national government stuff now. There's a, there's a real issue about how electricity costs could be brought down for public infrastructure.

[Host]

Yeah. I mean, it is something. I spoke to someone over the weekend that they paid, you know, an absurd amount at a rapid charger and in this particular instance, I'm not going to mention any names of any companies, but in this. So I've got in a lot of trouble saying the wrong thing about charging companies. But on one side of this particular motorway services, there's a row of charges that are about 78 pence a kilowatt hour and on the other side they're 39 and people don't know that. So you go to the, you go to the one that you've used before, which is more expensive, and then you wind up. You could have just moved the car over the road and paid like all half, you know, getting on for half of what you paid and that. I think there was one charge, this is, I'm thinking with fastnet in London. I don't know if they'll do it, but we went to a supermarket in France recently where they had a sign up, like, just like at a petrol station and it, and it said, I think it was 48 cents per kilowatt hour, like in a big lit up sign with a lot. And there was hundreds of charges there and I thought, well, that's, we can't. That's quite useful because then you come see another one down at 36. You go there, I mean, like you do with petrol.

[Michael Hurwitz]

That industry, they talk about planning to deploy like 6 billion of investment in it.

[Host]

In the huge investment.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, but, but, but there are sort of three. Well, there's, there's two structural things and maybe another thing that's an issue. So one of them is that in the UK, domestic electricity is charged at 5% VAT.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

But commercial is 20%. Right.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And, you know, interesting question. Shouldn't, you know, if, if I don't, if I don't have access to that, because I live in a block of flats, because I can't afford a house, I choose not to have a house. Is that fair? Right. So that's number one. There's another thing about the electricity market, standing charges. So the way it works in the UK is that you get build for the standing charge, which is like your connection fee to the grid according to what you will eventually use. Right. So if you, if you're building a, like a rapid charging hub and you're building ahead of demand and your demand is going to build up over the next five years. The way it works at the moment is you're charged for what it's going to be straight away. So. Right, it would. And that's, that's pretty tough if these companies are trying to, you know, grow businesses. And the final thing is, I've always wondered, there is. There's this thing in the UK called the Renewable Transport Fuels obligation by the rtfo, which is it. So for liquid fuels, a percentage of that every year has to be from renewable, renewable sources, say biodiesel from waste. And it's actually this year the target is about. I think it's 14% of what you get on a forecourt is actually biodiesel. And there's another target for like fuels from waste, another 1% or 1 1/2 percent. And in Germany, E fuels count, they have this thing, you know, so essentially, if I'm an oil producer, you trade in these credits so they have a value. So if I can't produce enough sustainable fuel, I can go and buy credits from someone who takes a used vegetable or used cooking oil and turns it into diesel. And in Germany, they've included EV charging as a sustainable fuel, which to me kind of makes sense. So I think there are things that there's costs in the uk, I think need being reviewed, but there's also things you could do to give EV charging a bigger value in the uk, if you compare to what's going on elsewhere in the world.

[Host]

Yeah. And I mean, also, I mean, it's not off topic because it does directly affect it, but the discussion that's going on at the moment about the wholesale price of electricity being defined by the cost of gas, I mean, particularly recently, we did a 69%. We had a day where it was 69% of all our electricity was from renewables. But the cost didn't go down to what it should do. It's still. Because there was a tiny bit that was being produced by gas and that's what defined the cost. And then you go, that's. How did that happen? What incredibly successful lobbying was done to create that ruling, or how did that come about? I mean, I'm not necessarily asking you to explain because, I mean, I certainly don't know, but it is. Yeah, well, I mean, look, I think weird now.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Well, it's changing. I think the system was designed when it really was, kept everything going. Right. And if you needed to turn something up and down it would. It was going to be gas. But yeah, you're right. I mean, I think. Watch this space. I don't know what's, what's happening. I mean, the UK government announced a couple of weeks ago support for some energy intensive industries. The big thing is though, is exactly what you say. Can you decouple.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

The gas price from the renewables price. And how's that set? I think, I think the, the Secretary of State was on the podcast with Imogen. Right. And he was saying they wanted to flip it by 2030 so it's far less reliant on gas. But they're going to have to change something. Whether it's regional pricing, whether they completely decouple renewable prices from gas, I don't know, but I think we're all waiting to see. But I agree with you, that's the biggest thing, to be honest, up at national policy level, I think that is the most important thing because it has a real, it has a real commercial impact. Yeah, a real commercial impact.

[Host]

But then the other big thing I think it's worth mentioning about London, the Transport for London. Well, a couple of things I want to cover the buses being electric. I know they're not all electric, but there's a lot of them that are. Now, I went on one the other day, 27, it was electric. I was very pleased. But I just think the public transport infrastructure, you sort of realize, especially if you spend a bit of time in other cities, it's actually not. I mean, everyone moans about it, but it's actually amazing. The public transport infrastructure, which predates all of us. I mean it's old. The underground system is extraordinary. The, the new Elizabeth line, you know, I've almost become. I start praying and worshiping it when I go there because it's so good and you know, those things really do make a difference. But, but I mean, can we just quickly do the buses? Because I think that's fascinating.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, yeah, well, buses. So there's like, there's 8, 700 London buses, 2,000 are fully electric.

[Host]

Wow.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And that's pretty big. I think when I joined TFL there were 30 for the electric in 2016 and now there's 2,000, which is quite cool. And 3,800 hybrids.

[Host]

Right.

[Michael Hurwitz]

So that's pretty.

[Host]

When it's a bus. Are they a plug in hybrid? Do they still get plugged in at the depot or do they. Are they just mild hybrid?

[Michael Hurwitz]

No, no, hybrid buses. That's, that's just. Yeah, I guess more mild. And yeah, there are 20 hydrogen as well.

[Host]

Yeah. And they're still running. Are they still operating?

[Michael Hurwitz]

I believe so, but. Yeah, but I mean, that's quite a remarkable transformation. I think one of the key things again is how do you move it all? How do you move it all? And one of the systems there is that there's this transport for London, sets the routes and then private operators bid to use. It's this like giant sort of rolling procurement where they're kind of relet in time. I've always thought that changing the whole lot is quite, is quite difficult.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Because you've got to maintain this operation going.

[Host]

Yes.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And it's. And actually, you know, shout out for all the bus depots and the bus operations companies like these, you know, they are properly the workhorse in London and, and they are. You, you know, they are used by a lot of people. Like compare and contrast. The Tube carries, I think last year's report, 949 million trips a year.

[Host]

Right.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Buses. More buses. 1.2 billion.

[Host]

Kidding. Wow.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cycling half a billion. But, but interesting. I. Okay, let me finish. The, the public transport, I think national Rail and like the overground is again, it's about similar to the Tube, you know, just, just under a billion. But if you add up my personal trips in cars, so if you're a driver or a passenger or in a taxi or mini cab.

[Host]

Right.

[Michael Hurwitz]

That is 3.4 billion a year.

[Host]

Wow. So that's kind of way ahead. Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Now, now, obviously you need to encourage as much active travel and walk and cycle as you can and encourage as much public transport as you can. But you know, that gives you a couple of imperatives for all of the public services. You've got to find a way of moving it to zero emission as quickly as you can for that. Plus it's on for taxis. And there is also this sort of recognition, which is sometimes tough for, I guess orthodox urban planning is you've got to do something with the car. There's going to be. Even if you, you know, even if you get rid of a billion trips, there's still going to be two and a half billion in cars. And that's a lot. So you've got to. Yeah, you've got to try and do it all, which is, you know, that's the impossible challenge. But yeah, yeah, it's amazing progress. I mean, I do remember my daughter who's now working, you know, she's got a job, very proud, started last week and she. I remember, you know, as a little kid once we were standing by a Bus stop and there was that like puff of soot and she turned around and it was probably like. Like a slapstick.

[Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And that was. And that was, you know, 20 years ago. 22 years ago. So the transformation is. Is quite amazing. But, but miles behind China in many cities.

[Host]

Yes. Well, I mean, I don't. Because I don't know about. I mean, certainly miles behind Shanghai, it's the only place I've been. I don't know about all the other cities, but I mean it's still. But I mean, to be fair, miles ahead of New Delhi, which has recently had some truly horrific. And Mumbai has been really bad recently, hasn't it? So what was it?

[Michael Hurwitz]

World Health organization? Is it 7 million deaths a year from poor air quality?

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Which is like pretty shocking. Professor Chris Whitty, who's the Chief Medical Officer, he did a report on air quality in the uk. This is a bit. Oh dear, I'm going to get morbid. So. So, so he. It was the end of 2022, he did this study about air quality and there was a bit in it. I don't know why I was. I'm focusing on this, but it was going through the causes of morbidity, morbidity in the UK, so that the top killer in the UK is like dementia, 66,000 and then it's like heart disease, 58,000 and like strokes, 30,000. And air quality, it's a diffuse impact, so, you know, but it encourages morbidity. And you put the annual figure in the UK, as I think it was between 28 and 36,000 deaths in the UK a year.

[Host]

Right.

[Michael Hurwitz]

It's pretty shocking that really.

[Host]

Yeah, it is, yeah. So I mean, I think the other thing that I realized as I've got older is you've got to die of something, which is slightly morbid thing. You know, there's something's going to get you in the end. But. But yeah, no, I mean, it's so obvious that. Well, I mean there was the, the tragic case which I think we mentioned when we've spoken before of, and I can't remember her whole name. Kissy Deborah. The little girl who died of sort of asthmatic things and that was. She's the first human being to be or in the UK to have cause of death on her death certificate. Air pollution, which was really hard.

[Michael Hurwitz]

You know, for some of it there is no safe level. You know, it's just better not to breathe it in. Doesn't matter how small it gets, you know. No, it's better to breathe clean air. That's what I mean.

[Host]

Yes, yes, I think that's a general. A general. I do remember talking to a postgrad student at. Don't know if I've ever mentioned this to you. At Westminster University, which is on the Euston Road, as I call it. You started near Madame, to Swords, sort of that area.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host]

Very busy through route. And they have an air monitoring box, it's still there, with all the little sensors up in the air. And one postgrad student took one of the monitors and put it down at sort of knee level and up at the top it was reading. It was not good, but it was sort of, you know, tolerable. And they put it down at any level. It was. He called it a. A thick, toxic, carcinogenic soup. And of course, I mean, it was only a few months earlier I pushed my son along that road in a push chair.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Oh, gosh.

[Host]

So his, his mouth and his breathing was at like 2ft above the ground, which was lethal. Absolutely.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Robert, we got, we got to turn this positive. This is like. This is dark.

[Host]

Yes, but that was. I mean, my son is now 32, so he survived and he's also lived for 30 years. And it was 30 years would have been like 30 years ago.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Wow.

[Host]

So it has, you know, it has changed. I mean, what, I mean, what are the next biggest challenges? I mean, I think we've covered quite a few of them, but I mean.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Is there anything like salad talk it nationally? Right. Like maybe out of a London context? So there's, there's always going to be government policy, you know, so, like, look, national government, like, I don't know, we could talk about the past and we can talk about present. Right. So, you know, this agenda, where did it start? I mean, it started back in 2007, 2008, when the UK government was bringing in the Climate Change act, which was this sort of first legal structure that committed the economy to decarbon to lower carbon. And some of the things that drove it then are the same as now. So one of the drivers behind it then was reduced carbon emissions and improved air quality. Yep. And there was also this sort of energy system benefit, you know. So as the UK moves towards more renewable energy, more energy independence, particularly relying on wind, then there is this point that you're going to need a way of managing the intermittency of renewables. So, yeah, ability to take more energy when there's a surplus and then either charge or not charge or even provide energy back, electricity back when it's not Blowing at all. So there was this sort of systemic benefit, but I think the other big benefit was like jobs and economy. So back, back in then. This is the late noughties, you know, the more advanced automotive OEMs were deciding on where to build their, their first EV factory. So, yeah, Andy Palmer, friend of the pod, right. He was the CEO of Nissan and I guess I was on the other side of the government table to him.

[Host]

Right.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Trying to get that built in, in Sunderland. And by the way, you know, it's an amazing thing. I remember going there a few years later. You see the car factory working in Sunderland next to the battery plant, making the batteries there. I remember we put on hard hats and went into Gateshead College, who were building like a low carbon engineering college. You know, it's this holistic thing, it's job as an economic benefit. And a lot of that is still the same now. And I think you say what needs to come next is that you need to find ways of getting businesses to adopt this because it makes commercial and operational sense, not just because you're being told to by policy. One thing I've told. We've spoken about this before, but, you know, there's this question of how do you get the CFO interested? Yeah. Of a big business.

[Host]

Right. And that's the Chief Financial Officer.

[Michael Hurwitz]

How do you get them? How do you get, you know, the people who are responsible. Yeah, the money people interested. Because you likely you'll get a sustainability officer interested. Great flying a flag. But, you know, you've won the battle if you've won the cfo. Yeah. And there's a thing that. There's a sort of a strategy I have used sometimes, like if you talk about really big fleets. So let's take the example in the uk, the biggest in the UK in terms of putting vehicles on the road, either leasing them directly or financing them, is Lloyds Banking Group. Lloyds Banking.

[Robert]

I remember you saying that.

[Host]

I was totally.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, yeah. So either directly or finance, they lease on the road in the UK. Finance on the road, 1.1 million vehicles. Wow, this is a lot, right? There's 42 million vehicles on the road in the UK altogether. And they. And then you write, if you were to. And this is hypothetical, but if they were all to go electric, I play this game and say, God, how much energy, how much electricity is that? If they were to all get phenomenal. And so it's basically every year that would consume like with average mileage and stuff, that would consume 2.4 terawatt hours of electricity. So 2,464 gigawatt hours of electricity, which, you know. And what is that? Well, that's the same as the whole of the city of Manchester, the whole of the city of Glasgow. And that is a lot of energy. Okay. So that gets them say, well, that's interesting. Maybe do we need energy conversation. Why? So, well, if you were to buy that electricity, so for one year, current prices, that is about £175 million electricity.

[Host]

Okay.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And then it's like, oh, hold on a minute, that's a lot of value. So hold on, if there's going to be revenue and money flowing around the system, there's a growth in paying for electrons, then it's an interesting question of, hold on, can we finance something back? Is that predictable set of revenue? Could we borrow against that kind of revenue? What does it mean for customers? Am I going to get that benefit? Does it go just direct to my customers? And. And once you sort of start to talk about the scale of it, you know, in the uk, there's is quite well established now is that, you know, the nisse, which is what National Grid has become the National Energy Systems Operator.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

They say, you know, like, actually, do you know what this is? We're recording this on the 7th of July.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

I'm about to give you some figures which are about to be out of date because on the 14th of July they're updating them and I think, all right, forgive me, I'm going to get out of date. Right. But basically what they say the UK grid is, the installed capacity is about, I think it's 116 gigawatts now, only ever uses 60 at any one time peak.

[Host]

So that's the generating capacity is about 116.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Correct. They only hit about 60. That's, you know, when everyone's got their kettles plugged in and cooking dinner, it gets to that peak. But as you move to more renewables, you need more. And as everything electrifies, you need more. And they say, well, last year they said that 2035, it's going to more than double to like 260 odds by 2050 it's gonna have to get closer to 400, but it moves up. But what they say is you need storage.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And to provide like demand response and flexibility, they think in the electric, one of the scenarios, they say you're going to need about 38 gigawatts of storage.

[Host]

Of storage. Right.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And that can be hydro, it could be big batteries.

[Host]

Yeah. But actually that's less than I would have imagined, not more. Do you mean it somehow? I mean, once you know that are like. I mean, it's a hell of a lot. I'm not saying it's not very much, but you'd sort of think that the response, when you talk about batteries and storing, you know, grid level electricity, people go, well, it wouldn't work. You'd need a billion gigawatt hours in case it was dark for two weeks or something.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Well, you know, and it's not how.

[Host]

It works, is it?

[Michael Hurwitz]

Well, and so, yeah, that's not how it works because it's far. I mean, you know, battery energy storage is far, far more sophisticated than that now. But it, but they actually say they cut off that 38. I think 10 might be from vehicles charging at the right time or in time giving energy back.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And now that's hard, right? It is hard. I'm worried about the resilience of it. You know, like IBM say now 11% of all cyber attacks in the world are energy and utilities. Right. So, you know, so like, you know, like, if I don't want the hospital to be relying on whether I've got my car plugged in at home, you know. Yeah, but, but once you've got scale, you know. Okay, back to Lloyd's Banking Group. Right.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Again, average battery size at 1.1 million vehicles is probably what, 60, 65.

[Host]

Yeah, 50 and 65 kilowatts.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And National Grid are saying you just need 10%, 10 gigawatts from vehicles. So I'm not saying it's easy and it's really hard and how do you manage it? And. Yeah, but, you know, there's 42 million vehicles on the road.

[Host]

Yes.

[Michael Hurwitz]

In the UK and we need, okay, a relatively small selection of that to be just regularly plugging in at night, allowing the grid to determine when it's the sensible time to give or take energy. And this is kind of the original vision, I guess, at government level, is that rather than transport being the problem, transport is the biggest source of emissions and road transport is the biggest of that. So it's the biggest of the biggest and it's kind of problem child. And if you flip it to say, hold on, actually we can start contributing part of the solution. Yeah, you know, that's the thing to still get excited about. But as I say right now we need to do more things about making it make more sense for businesses. So, you know, the biggest systemic thing, and it affects the whole economy is getting energy prices lower because you maximize the benefits of people wanting to move to it. That unlocks the ability of trading revenues and trading value across the economy and across different sectors. So what's the big thing that comes next? We've got to find a way of, number one, making the energy cost lower and then B, it's this quite exciting time now where people are going to start coming to market with this, making the vehicles connecting with the grid. I think it'll start with fleets and depots. If you've got predictable cycle batteries, you know, buses, fans. I think it will start in earnest. There is already starting, in fact. And then when the system becomes more and more sophisticated, then you probably move into vehicles more widely.

[Host]

I mean, it's certainly a thing that I remember learning very early on when I started talking about electric vehicles and talking to the automotive industry and the AA and all those sort of people. I never thought about it, but I, as soon as you hear it, you go, yeah, of course that my vehicle, but I've got one here, is not in use for about 95% of the time. I own it.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah.

[Host]

Which is so stupid. And as soon as you realize, I would have, if someone had said, how often do you got, you know, every day. And so it's in use like 50, 60% of the time. No, it's not. Now when you actually look at it, it's very, very little. And I probably drive above the average rather than below, you know, and it's still. I might be.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And it's the second most expensive thing that you or I will ever buy after our house. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Host]

It's crazy.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah.

[Host]

But I mean that. And so when you do see examples, I mean we've just done a, an episode about Utrecht. You know, they have got like now quite big vehicle to grid system in their city and it, it's making an impact. It's actually, you can see.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Oh, it is. And that is, that is, that's the one with the Renault, isn't it?

[Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

That's really cool. No, but also like, you know, Octopus and byd, they've announced they're all stuck in, which is great. But it's that like it, you know, it is quite well established now, like pick your study, but it's all over the place that there, there is choosing when you getting the right tariff and then being smart about when you charge.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And then like the step further is maybe even giving electricity back to the grid when it needs it.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

You know, Cornwall insight. Let's talk about someone, you know as an octopus. They, they like, they. I think they reckon about 300, 320 pounds sterling per car per year of value by charging at the right time.

[Host]

By basically trading in electricity.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah. And then it gets. And again, if you've got a predictable cycle with a bigger battery like a commercial vehicle or a bus, it gets a lot higher. And there's an interesting question, who gets that value? Is it me as the customer or is it Octopus as the provider?

[Host]

I predict, I predict Octopus will actually rule the world and we'll all be dressed as octopuses in about five years time.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Okay, fine, yeah, well with like the fake like arms.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And pink, pink hoods will all be.

[Host]

You have to wear a pink hood or you get a fine and your electricity costs more. You know, there'll be some. No, I'm being very cruel because I think they're amazing, but it is, they seem to be expanding and growing and coming up with brilliant ideas. I mean, I've got to take my octopus hat off to Greg Jackson. I mean it is extraordinary what they're up to.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah, amazing.

[Host]

Michael, it's been a genuine joy today. I can say that without hesitation to talk to you and to. To get through that, I might. I will let my lovely viewers know that I'm actually suffering from quite severe toothache today. I'm about to go to the dentist and have a tooth removed.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah. Everyone should know, by the way, that when we joined, Robert was on the phone, I think to some medical practitioner.

[Host]

Oh no, that was to the producer of zapip Challenge. Sorry to dominate.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And he was basically in clear pain. Like, you know, I said, are you okay? Once I start talking I'll forget. So you'll probably now.

[Host]

Yeah, got through it. It's now beginning to throb again and I'm just getting it. Yeah. But I'm very lucky I can get to a dentist today.

[Michael Hurwitz]

And we haven't even spoken about the startup. We should. Yeah, we haven't get to that.

[Host]

Yes.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Another time when you're not in.

[Host]

Come back.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah.

[Host]

Oh God, yes, you're right. I've got my notes there and I missed that.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Oh yeah, you missed a whole page of them, Robert, I think.

[Host]

Oh my God. And I'm just. I am on some pretty hefty painkillers. I'm not, I don't. And I don't ever take painkillers normally. So I mean, I'm in quite a good mood. But yeah, I mean, I think we've covered quite a lot and it's been really good and I, and I do want to thank you for your time because it's been really interesting. I'm definitely. We need you back to explain everything else that's going on.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Listen, it's an honor and a pleasure. Always great to talk and. Yeah. And like, you know, we started talking in, what, 15 years ago?

[Host]

It's gotta be, isn't it? Yeah.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah. People thought we were mad.

[Host]

Yes. Some of them might have been right. But we kind of. We're less mad than we might have appeared then.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Yeah. Yeah, maybe.

[Host]

Great stuff. All right, take care. See you soon.

[Michael Hurwitz]

Great. Take care. See you soon.

[Robert]

Well, I really hope you enjoyed that. It was an amazing conversation. We'll definitely get Michael back on because we barely scratched the surface of his knowledge and his understanding of what's going on. The big challenges that we're facing and the big successes that we're having. Always worth mentioning those.

[Host]

That's it. See you again soon.

[Robert]

Next week, same time, same place.

[Host]

Don't touch that dial.

[Robert]

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