Ian Callum, Former Jaguar Designer, Unveils the Future of Car Design! | Fully Charged Show Podcast

Summary

The Fully Charged Podcast: Ian Callum, Former Jaguar Designer, Unveils the Future of Car Design!

Release Date: December 30, 2024

Hosts: Robert Llewellyn, Alec Jones

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Introduction

In this episode of The Fully Charged Podcast, Robert Llewellyn engages in an extended and in-depth conversation with Ian Callum, the renowned former Aston Martin and Jaguar designer, and Alec Jones, the head of design at Callum. The discussion centers around the integration of Artificial Intelligence (AI) in car design, exploring its potential and limitations through a critical examination of AI-generated car designs created by Robert himself using the Vizcom tool.

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AI in Car Design: A Critical Analysis

Robert begins by presenting several AI-generated car designs inspired by iconic models such as the Rivian R3, Porsche 964 RSR, Citroen AX GTI, Renault R5, and Ioniq 5. Despite his enthusiasm, the feedback from Ian and Alec is decidedly critical.

Notable Points:

• Form Language Discrepancies: Ian emphasizes the importance of a cohesive form language in car design. He critiques the AI-generated designs for their mismatched elements, stating, “The form language is completely different. You’ve got the form language of the Porsche, which is very positive and very deliberate and very well known, but the two together do not work and never will work” (04:30).

• Totality in Design: Ian highlights that effective car design should be perceived as a unified object from a distance. “When you’re about 200 meters away, you’ll be able to look at that object and see it as one, regardless of the details. That, to me, is called the draftsmanship of it” (05:01).

• Volume and Proportion Issues: Alec presents another AI-generated design combining elements from the Ioniq 5 and Porsche 964 RSR, which Ian critiques for its exaggerated proportions and misaligned parts. “The Porsche form language goes back years, but the fresh new form language is completely alien to it. Could you ever bring them two together? I don’t know” (07:26).

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The Essence of Human Creativity vs. AI

The conversation delves into the intrinsic value of human creativity in design, contrasting it with AI’s capabilities.

Key Insights:

• Creativity from Within: Ian shares a poignant analogy about Glenn Miller's quest for a unique sound, illustrating that true creativity stems from personal emotion and understanding. “True creativity comes from within... you have to really dig deep to find something original” (12:10).

• Limitations of AI: Ian argues that while AI can emulate existing designs, it struggles to create original forms rooted in human emotion. “AI can only really emulate. Yes, it creates an emulation, but it’s emulating from an infinite amount of information” (23:07).

• AI as a Tool, Not a Replacement: Alec and Ian agree that AI should serve as a co-pilot in the design process, enhancing human creativity rather than replacing it. Ian cautions, “Never, ever let that happen. Now, Alias is much more sophisticated, but you must never lose control of what you’re doing” (14:36).

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The Importance of Sketching and Physicality in Design

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the role of traditional sketching and the physical understanding of volume and space in car design.

Highlights:

• Essence of Sketching: Ian emphasizes that sketching is fundamental for designers to communicate their internal visions effectively. “You need to be able to sketch because that’s your point of communicating. That’s your language” (20:48).

• Human Touch in Physicality: Ian and Alec discuss how AI lacks the nuanced understanding of three-dimensional space and physicality that human designers possess. “That three-dimensional object you’re creating is something which is a joy to look at. And that’s an understanding of the skill that designers and modelers have” (16:43).

• Soul in Design: The concept of "soul" in design is explored, with Ian defining it as the joy and emotional connection embedded in a creation. “There’s a feeling and hopefully a sense of joy... that’s the soul that you give an object” (22:57).

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Future of Automotive Design with AI

The conversation shifts to the future implications of AI in automotive design and advice for aspiring designers.

Key Takeaways:

• AI Enhancing Efficiency: Alec mentions examples like Toyota’s AI model that optimizes sketches for aerodynamic efficiency, illustrating AI’s role in enhancing practical aspects of design. “Efficiency is, is sort of where I see AI really having its moment in the sun” (30:43).

• Balancing Control and Innovation: Ian advises designers to maintain control over AI tools, using them to augment rather than dictate the design process. “Keeping in control of your thoughts and how you want to apply them is key” (27:29).

• Advice to Future Designers: Ian encourages young designers to embrace AI as a tool while honing their fundamental skills like sketching and understanding form. “I do think I’m still sort of of the belief that this will become a really powerful tool going forward for all designers so long as there is a tangible way to recapture the human input back into whatever the output is” (27:29).

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Conclusion

Robert concludes the episode with a cautiously optimistic view, acknowledging that while AI can assist in the design process, the unique human elements of imagination and emotional depth remain irreplaceable. “I’m cautiously optimistic that the wonderfully intangible spirit spark of human imagination and skill remains irreplaceable. Of course, AI might be great at wrangling that imagination into something tangible, but replacing it? Not a chance” (30:59).

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Final Thoughts

This episode provides a profound exploration of the interplay between human creativity and AI in the realm of car design. Ian Callum and Alec Jones offer invaluable insights into the irreplaceable aspects of human-driven design, emphasizing the importance of maintaining artistic integrity and emotional depth in an increasingly AI-influenced landscape.

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For a visual accompaniment to the discussed AI-generated designs, please refer to the YouTube link provided in the podcast description.

Transcript

[Ian Callum]

Foreign.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Hello and welcome to another episode.

[Alec Jones]

Of the Fully Charged show podcast where.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Today we're doing something a little different and I'm excited, a little nervous and very intrigued to get your reaction. Now, a while back we featured the legendary Ian Callum, former Aston Martin and Jaguar designer, alongside Alec Jones, head of design at Callum. And this is the extended interview from that episode. Now, given their extreme car design talent, obviously I deemed it sensible to get their expert opinions on some car designs that I whipped up using an AI tool called Vizcom. Safe to say the feedback wasn't glowing. Far from it, in fact. But their critiques opened up a far more existential conversation about creativity, AI tools and whether we'll harness them or be led by them. Ian and Alec are incredibly eloquent when it comes to the world of car design and for me this conversation became a fascinating reflection on the future of design versus function and the irreplaceable magic of human skill. AI, of course, is the top of du jour. It dominated 2024 and for good reason. Beyond its impact on design, its energy intensive nature is going to shake up systems like microgrids, renewable energy, co location and even district heat networks. And we'll dig into these game changing topics in more detail in 2025. But for now, sit back and enjoy this delightful conversation with Ian and Alec. If you're listening rather than watching, we'll be discussing some images in the first five minutes and you can find the link to see them on YouTube in the description. And if you're already here on YouTube, I can only apologise in advance for the abominations I dared to call Car Designs. What was I thinking? Let's dive in.

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[Alec Jones]

Alec and Ian, thank you so much for I'm actually very nervous. I'm very worried about what you're going to say because I need to give you a couple of caveats before we get into this. First of all, I need to tell you my inspiration. So I decided to bring together some of my favourite cars. So that's the new Rivian R3, the Porsche 964 RSR, the Citroen AX GTI, the Renai R5 and the Ioniq 5. So, you know, quite a spread of stuff there. But then I wanted to kind of mash those things together, make it a little bit more cyberpunky and a bit more sort of.

[Ian Callum]

Cyberpunky.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Cyberpunky, love that.

[Alec Jones]

And then a bit more swoopy and angular at the same time. And this is what I've got. But critically, I wanted to do this without having any real kind of Photoshop skill. So my only Photoshop that I've really done is mashing two things together with some real botched cropping and then spending about five minutes in Viscom trying to get something. So here we go. I've got a couple of things to show you, but I think I'm going to start with my favorite one. Now, this is. Well, I'll see if you can recognize it, but what do you think of this? That's not a good laugh.

[Ian Callum]

It's hilarious. It's a cartoon car.

[Alec Jones]

So I have a slightly more.

[Ian Callum]

It's a cartoon car. Right, okay.

[Alec Jones]

What's your initial impression when you look at that?

[Ian Callum]

It's. Yeah, it's completely out of scale, isn't it? The whole thing.

[Expert Designer]

Portions are all a bit off.

[Alec Jones]

How so? What's sort of really key giveaway?

[Expert Designer]

Well, I mean, just looking at it, the side doesn't feel like it lines up with the front. There's a lot of fresh air underneath it. Yeah. I mean, there's volumes that are slightly odd. This rear arch is all a bit strange. I mean, it's slightly better there, in fact, but I don't know what you're thinking.

[Ian Callum]

The form language is completely different. You know, you've got a form language, you've got a statement there, which kind of in itself works. Then you've got the Porsche form language at the back, which in itself works. We all know very well. But the two together do not work and never will work.

[Alec Jones]

See, this is where I was like, but I love the front of the ribbon and I love the rear of the.

[Ian Callum]

But they're two very different things.

[Alec Jones]

So when you say the form language.

[Ian Callum]

It'S like putting jelly on. On a stake, isn't it?

[Alec Jones]

But then that's where I think this is really interesting because that is a totally subjective thing through your sort of. You know, expertise. So is there a way that you can express that in words, why the two form languages don't go together?

[Ian Callum]

Yeah, because when I'm thinking about a car design, I think about a totality and that's actually one of the strengths of what I do. I can edit well, when we're going through a design process and get a totality where the whole object looks as one, that's very important to me because when you're about 200 yards away, 200 meters away, you'll be able to look at that object and see it as one, regardless of the details. That, to me is called the draftsmanship of it, I.e. drawing the composition in the picture. And if you don't do that correctly, it will never be right. Like these two cars, I'll never be right.

[Alec Jones]

So I'm going to show you another one before I come back to that, because I think it's that totality and that idea of physical space and volume that I really want to kind of dig into a little bit more. But before then, I've got another horror to show you. Well, I don't think it's a horror, so it'll be interesting to see what you think. Now, this is the starting point was an Ionic 5. And again, my favourite, the Porsche 964 RSR. Now, I want you to ignore some of the things that are clunky and a real consequence of my poor initial Photoshop and more. Think of this as a kind of very first concept, that silence isn't good either.

[Ian Callum]

Yeah, I mean, I suppose it'd be. You blend them together, it starts to make up a car. And I've seen a bit of this in real cars, actually. It makes me cringe slightly to think that people have copied the elements and tried to bring them together. But again, the form language is not correct. You've got the form language of the Porsche, which is very positive and very deliberate and very well known, goes back years. And then you've got this fresh new form language which is completely alien to it. And could you ever bring them two together? I don't know. I mean, I never say no completely because creativity is about accepting new things. But they have to work.

[Expert Designer]

They do have to work.

[Ian Callum]

Yeah.

[Expert Designer]

It needs to be a homogenous design. I mean, just, again, looking at this from experience, I know that the second you extrapolate that into, you know, you start looking at it and the side view is going to look a little bit like a shoe. And I don't mean that as a slight on anything. You've done here. You know, you've got some really odd. You know, Ian always says, you know, when you're designing cars all about speed and where the lines are going, and if you imagine where these lines are heading, it's not. It's not anywhere you want them to go. So, yeah, it's an interesting, interesting shape.

[Ian Callum]

It's not working.

[Expert Designer]

No.

[Alec Jones]

I'm really enjoying the sort of gentle brutality of your feedback here. Okay, one more before we get into a little bit longer.

[Expert Designer]

The interesting thing about here is you might have had a little bit more success because your A post here isn't aligning up with that a post. So you've got this really weirdly exaggerated length to it, which is probably. I mean, all I can see here is if you move this further forward a bit, you'd ended up with a proportionally something that made a bit more.

[Ian Callum]

Sense, I think, and also the scale this way as well.

[Alec Jones]

But it's not a no. So, okay, this one, it's not a.

[Ian Callum]

No, but it's very unlikely.

[Alec Jones]

I think this one may give you the biggest nightmares. I absolutely adore the original Citroen DS. I also have recently seen the Renault R5, which is also quite a nostalgic design, particularly at the rear. So those were my two sources of inspiration. And again, ignoring some of the things, both French, maybe that's where the similarities stop. But oh, dear.

[Expert Designer]

It'S funny because obviously DS has got quite a lot of length to it visually, and it's got a lot of speed to it and it's a beautiful car. And then the Renault R5 is almost the opposite side of that spectrum, where it's a little bit more compact, a little bit more fun.

[Ian Callum]

It's like a contradiction statement, really. You know, as you say, the 5 is a very clunky, very positive shape, but it's about squatness, it has a cuteness about it. And the DS is all about aerodynamic feel. So the two very contradictory sort of form languages and statements and intentions. You know, the guy that went out to design the DS had this intention of creating something that floats through the air beautifully and it is beautiful as a result. It's very pure. The DS is really about a functional car that seats four or five people in a very functional manner. Very matter of fact, and it has a beauty for that, but they're two very different beauties.

[Alec Jones]

It's so interesting hearing some of your thoughts and feedback on my designs in a verticommas and you're sort of looking at how this doesn't make sense as an entire thing. The physicality of it hasn't really been considered. And from my perspective, I think what I've done is kind of extract my favorite things from various different cars, my favorite bits of design language, and tried to make them work together. And as a consequence, I haven't got anything original there. There's nothing individual at all. This is totally stealing ideas that already exist. And so I wonder, to get that kind of true individuality and personality in design, does that have to come from a human being? Can it ever come from AI?

[Ian Callum]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, there are two ways to create something. You do take stuff that exists and you bring it together, and it might be experiences, it might be physical entities, and that's most of the time how most designers work. They're being influenced by other areas and you bring it together and create something new. However, I think there's something much deeper than that. If you want to be really original, you have to get. You have to create something from within, an atmosphere and a feeling. Now, I'll never forget, I saw a movie when I was very young called the Glenn Miller Story. He was a composer, had an orchestra. He was looking for a sound. And I remember in this, he was saying, I'm looking for something. It's in my head. I can't get it out. I know it's there, but I can't quite find it. And eventually he came out with it, the Glenn Miller sounds, a very famous sound. And that's something he created personally through his own emotions and his own understanding of music. And I found at that point, I find that fascinating. That's where true creativity comes from, is from within. And I've used that ever since. An example to myself, to remind myself that you have to really dig deep to find something original.

[Alec Jones]

So I find that really interesting because you hear that a lot with any kind of creative discipline. You hear it from authors who are like, I have this book that was inside and it just needed to come out onto the page. And I wonder whether AI in that sense can operate almost as a kind of a mining tool. I've used AI in this instance to mine my own imagination and to Google translate my imagination onto a page such that we can have this conversation with some kind of fluency, rather than me saying, oh, well, you know, I kind of like the Rivian R3 lights. I love the back of the Porsche 900 RSR. It has given us that sort of slightly more even ground in which to have this discussion. So I wonder, Alec, I Know that, you know, you've honed your craft in when there's been different tools available. So is there a way that you are using AI to kind of. To lasso your imagination and bring it to life?

[Expert Designer]

Yeah, I mean, when I. Well, I've always known tools like Photoshop, 3D modeling, all that good stuff, and AI to me feels like. And I wasn't around for the dawn of Photoshop, but that's no slight but.

[Ian Callum]

Magic markers for me, it feels like that's.

[Expert Designer]

It's almost that level of resurgence. It's a new tool and I wouldn't say it's scary, but it's taking something that I know takes time, takes patience, takes skill and allowing people to create renderings. And in this instance, you've used Viscom, which is very much predetermined on its inputs. You get decent outputs if you put in really, really good inputs.

[Alec Jones]

What are you saying about my inputs?

[Ian Callum]

I'm not saying.

[Expert Designer]

I'm not. I think it's all some really interesting stuff. But the best way to use a tool like Viscom is if you have a sketch, for example, and then it very quickly renders it up and then you can very quickly churn out dozens and dozens and dozens of iterations of a very similar thing. And then I can see all these things you've done here. And with a bit more time and a bit more patience, we could put these through Photoshop and create something that's a little bit more homogenous and a little bit more in keeping with the design philosophy that we. We know so well here at Callum. But no, I certainly see it as another tool in the arsenal of designers. And, you know, I can see there's elements of design work that become easier using things like AI.

[Alec Jones]

Do you have a different perspective?

[Ian Callum]

Slightly. I don't disagree with any of that. I think there's a validity there and it's. At the moment it's a rendering tool or anything else. It's not a three dimensional thing. However, you must never lose control of what you're doing. I remember when the days of Alias appeared and we were 3D modeling.

[Alec Jones]

Alias is a 3D modeling.

[Ian Callum]

Alias is A 3D modeling software. So designers started to model in 3D, and what I found was they were beholden to the capability of the Alias structure and they were creating objects which they would not have created by themselves because the tool was telling them what to do. You must never, ever let that happen. Now, Alias is much more sophisticated and people who can drive it are much more adept at Using it and therefore what they want out of it or what the designer wants out of it is much more under control. But through that period of, you know, instruction and discovery, I found that the alias was driving the driving the style.

[Alec Jones]

Which was interesting because around that time, that's when people were like, oh, we don't need clay modeling of full scale scars. And then obviously we've brought clay models back for this reason.

[Expert Designer]

I don't think they ever went away. I think it's probably similar conversations people are having about AI now were being had about clay models. Clay models are still used in every design studio that I'm aware of. And there are probably more money conscious ways of doing full size models and that smaller businesses are using. But there's no substitute for a representation of a design in full size 3D.

[Alec Jones]

And that's one of the things I want to ask you about that sense of volume and physicality. And that's kind of language that you hear a lot from designers, that you understand volume and proportions in a way that maybe I certainly don't. But if products live in the real world, in the physical world, do you think it's a vital skill for designers to be able to have that appreciation in order to create anything of substantial value? Or again, can AI eventually kind of take that away?

[Ian Callum]

Yes, because that three dimensional object that you're creating manifests itself is something which is a joy to look at. And that's an understanding of the skill that designers and modelers have. And I think it'll be a long time before AI can actually look at that and make a decision whether a form is a beautiful form and it might be millimeters or it's not a beautiful form. Now the big question is, does it have a validity? Does it have a value? Well, you know, if you're going to design something, let's design to the best of our ability. That's always been my philosophy. Now, if you make it slightly less, does it matter to the outside world? Does it matter to itself? Sales? Possibly not. But as a human being, you have to take the attitude that you're going to do the best job possible. And that includes the understanding of form in a very human way, a very emotional way. I really believe in that. I think it'd be a long time before you can show AI a clear model and say to it, well, why is that? They can work it out by highlights. Yes, but why is that form right or wrong?

[Alec Jones]

One of the things that we heard a lot about the, the Nye Bolt car that we've featured on the channel before is that you spent a lot of time thinking about the shape, the volumes, the lines, how it sort of has a. You have a beautiful expression. It's like a. The shape of movement or. I'm totally ruining that, aren't I?

[Ian Callum]

Shape of movement.

[Expert Designer]

You'll come up with sense of speed.

[Alec Jones]

That was it.

[Ian Callum]

Speed.

[Alec Jones]

Yeah, sense of speed. And it. It certainly does. And there is something innate that you say this person understands how to sign a car. Was that sense of physicality in space and volume, is that something that was. Has been a natural skill of yours, or is that something that's had to be learnt and honed over the years?

[Expert Designer]

It's definitely something that, you know, over the years designing things and, you know, working with various different designers, you pick up. I mean, I've learned so much working with Ian, with Julian, and even on that, or even on the NYBOC car where there was a point where we were all very happy with it and Ian walked in within 30 seconds, was like this and this are completely different and obviously there's loads of experience there. So I'm still learning and it's still something that we're working towards. But the Nyebolt was particularly good because we knew going into it that there was this beautiful core line that we wanted to maintain and that rolled into the rear arch. So that was kind of the goal going into it and we knew that stuff something that was going to drive a lot of the. The surfacing and the volumes of that car.

[Ian Callum]

But it's not easy. No, it takes time. It takes time. It takes a lot of scrutiny. And I think the other thing is this notion of self scrutiny is very, very important. I'm not sure AI would actually do that. You've got to look at your work and analyze it as if someone else.

[Alec Jones]

Has done it, which is hard in any discipline. But it's so vital that you actually get something that of value. I've got a few more questions just to manage expectations. I want to ask you about sketching and one of the things that you've mentioned before is that actually when you take Vizcom, you could do what I've done, which is terrible, Photoshop, or you could take an original sketch and then work with Viscom to kind of give you a set of different iterations. But how valuable is that skill of sketching? Is it still vital for designers today?

[Ian Callum]

I think so, yes. Because you're putting on paper, hopefully what you're thinking, not what you're copying. As I said before, you know, you can pull all these ideas from all sorts of different sources and put it on a piece of paper and try and make it work. But I think if you're designing from within and you have a feeling, an atmosphere you're looking for, you need to be able to sketch, because that's your point of communicating. That's your language. But you need to be able to speak it, that language without thinking about it. You're thinking about what you want, and your hand and pencil create something that you want to see, and that's what you hand on to somebody else. So it's very important to me, but.

[Expert Designer]

Not just that you're also trying to capture there's a character and a quality to sketches. There's a speed and there's a whole character to a sketch that often gets lost in if you go straight into 3D or if you go through AI, because there's this. There's this, as Ian was saying, the speed of form. Speed of form. And that you only really hone down on once you do that really sort of tactile pen to paper interaction.

[Ian Callum]

There's also something else interesting with sketching. Once you learn to draw competently, you have certain ways of drawing which are fairly spontaneous. It's not to say that should override what you're thinking. Sometimes it does. But that spontaneity that you create with a brush or a pencil, that sense of movement, is a wonderful thing. It's a very human thing to do. You know, where the emphasis is and where the flow is. And then the job of designers to contain that and keep it to the very end through all the processes, that's difficult.

[Alec Jones]

So it sounds like what you're describing is that when you are sketching, there is sort of a part of your brain that you are accessing somehow, and it is being translated into. Onto the page in a way that's so difficult to put words to. And what that also sounds like, and we hear this term a lot when it comes to not only automotive design, but anything that's been designed by people rather than AI, is soul. So I guess the question is, what is soul when it comes to design? And what is it about that that makes something intrinsically more valuable or lovable or whatever it might be, if it has that soul.

[Ian Callum]

So there's a feeling and hopefully a sense of joy. You know, it's something that you. You put down into, first of all into paper. Then it manifests as a car, and it gives people joy. And I think that's sort of the soul that you Give an object is that sense of wanting, people wanting to enjoy it, looking at it.

[Alec Jones]

And do you think we will always need people to embed that soul and joy in something?

[Expert Designer]

I hope so, 100%.

[Ian Callum]

Yeah. Because, you know, AI can only really emulate. Yes, it creates of emulation, but it's emulating from. It's pulling from all over the place, and it's an infinite amount of information. Now, however, it's still emulating. I mean, you have to ask yourself, could AI have created the worksheet, the. The work of Shakespeare, and could it have done it if Shakespeare had not never existed? I doubt it very much.

[Alec Jones]

So there is a slightly existential question, though, when we talk about Sol, because let's talk about mobility. And if we purely thought of mobility as getting from A to B in the most efficient way possible, in that instance, we're probably valuing utility, practicality, above and beyond beauty and art. And in that world, do we need soul in our physical objects? Do we need soul in things that purely serve as practical objects?

[Ian Callum]

You mean like an army truck?

[Alec Jones]

Yeah, or like.

[Ian Callum]

If you look at an army truck, it's an interesting look at. It's designed entirely from a functional engineering point of view. There is no aesthetic in it whatsoever. I mean, I do see them and I look at them with fascination. And that in itself creates an aesthetic which becomes appealing to some people, I think if you're. Yes. What you're talking about are a set of givens, a set of objectives which you have to adhere to. And they're numeric. You have to measure it. It's very geometric. You have to measure it. But when you bring all this together, there's no reason why you cannot and should not apply a sense of aesthetic understanding to that. So there's got pleasant. An element of pleasantness about it that would not be there had it been done just purely by numbers. There is a difference. There is a difference. And even when you look at the most practical objects of function, if somebody. If a human being has designed it, which inevitably they have so far, then it's got an element of beauty about it, if it's done properly, or it's got an element of ugliness about it because they haven't done it properly, you know.

[Alec Jones]

Alex, is that how you feel?

[Expert Designer]

Yeah. I mean, I don't think I could say any better than Ian. Ian has sort of. You're talking to the wrong audience here. I mean, we love cars. We love. We see cars as beautiful forms, and that's the reason why we do the job that we do. So I certainly hope that, that we're not ever going to go down the route where we're sort of 3D printing mass produced generic objects. But yeah, I think you sort of hit the nail on the head there.

[Ian Callum]

That glass doesn't have to have all these facets on it, does it?

[Alec Jones]

No, still does.

[Ian Callum]

It does and it's lovely for it. That's human input.

[Alec Jones]

And so what would your advice be then to say a 17 year old who wants to be an automotive designer or a designer in general, should they be hopeful about the future that maybe exists for them within this field?

[Expert Designer]

Yeah, certainly. I mean one of my. I was talking to someone about this the other day. One of my worries is for the younger, the younger designers, the ones who are in university, I mean university isn't so far away from me that I remember the late nights and the last minute deadlines and I worry that AI might become almost a get out of jail free card. And as we were discussing start, a lot of this we could take and using a lot of the skills that I've learned over the years, we could turn into what is perceived as a good design and capturing all of that lovely form language. But if going into university and if going into a car design job, your default is going into is using AI immediately without picking up the ability to sketch or the ability to, whether it's Photoshop, whether it's free, really any of those things, but ability to take the AI output and put in your own input and really capture that human element, then I'd worry along that route. But no, I do think I'm still sort of of the belief that this will become a really powerful tool going forward for all designers so long as there is a tangible way to recapture the human input back into whatever the output is.

[Alec Jones]

Which is interesting because some of the things that you've said is that it is that kind of co pilot, but making sure that you're still ultimately in control and not being led by.

[Ian Callum]

That's key. Yeah, Keeping in control of your thoughts and how you want to apply them is key. And never let the tool take over.

[Alec Jones]

I think that's a good point to end on anything that you think I should have asked you or you'd like to say before we wrap up.

[Ian Callum]

Yeah, I think the one thing that does concern me is imagery is very powerful as we know, we see it in social media all the time. It's very powerful. A lot of it's fake. And you know, with all respect to your images, these cars don't exist, they are fake. But it takes the unknowledgeable, the, dare I say it, the bosses of a business to say, well, that's good enough for me. So why do we need designers? And they do, because someone will come along and design a better one because they've thought about it and it doesn't just come from an image. I think there's a danger these images are taken too literally by people who are in control of a business or car industry and say, that's good enough, that's fine, because it's not, it's not good enough. I'm not saying it's protect our position in the world. I'm saying this because I believe we can do better through thought and through understanding and through emotions.

[Alec Jones]

Well, certainly one of the things that has come out of these discussions generally, not just with yourselves, but the other people we've interviewed for this, is that the fear that comes from AI is that it makes things totally reductive. It reduces things like this to say, that is good enough. We'll make that. When the reality is actually they are an opportunity to expand horizons, to craft or mine new bits of your imagination that were previously sort of slightly out of reach and to bring them and to make that much more valuable. But that is the risk that we are at this particular juncture. Let's not make it reductive, let's use it as a superpower to make us more creative.

[Ian Callum]

Yeah, it's a tool. That's it.

[Alec Jones]

Yeah. Alec, anything you feel you want to say before we kind of wrap up? He's worried I'm going to fire him, actually. A job interview? Yeah, exactly.

[Expert Designer]

No, I mean, a lot of AI is, is, you know, you can, you can bomb it down to efficiency. You know, AI is particularly good at things like generative design. You know, there are cars on the road. I think it's the Czinga 21C that has these beautifully gener. Generatively designed components and that's AI optimizing something for weight and stiffness, et cetera, et cetera. And I think it's Toyota, in fact, who are taking. Who have developed an AI model whereby you can input a designer sketch and you can optimize the sketch with aerodynamic efficiency and package. And so you, you sort of bypassed some initial feasibility elements. I mean, it's all early days from, from the, the article I read, but efficiency is, is. Is sort of where I see AI really having its, its moment in the sun. But it's, it's certainly not. I don't think it's replacing the process. It's just as you say, another tool in the designer's toolkit.

[Alec Jones]

That's such an elegant way to put it because say for example you take Google Maps, you want the quickest route from A to B, you'll get the quickest route from A to B. But journeys might. You might want a bit of green space or to stop at the coffee. And that nuance isn't necessarily going to be captured by something purely optimized for efficiency.

[Robert Llewellyn]

So there you have it for now. I'm cautiously optimistic that the wonderfully intangible spirit spark of human imagination and skill remains irreplaceable. Of course AI might be great at wrangling that imagination into something tangible, but replacing it? Not a chance. At least not yet. Let us know what you think in the comments. Please do send this to a friend or like comment or subscribe or all of the above and if you have been thank you for listening and watching.