A (2:27)

E HongKook proves its EV technology is.

C (2:30)

At the highest level of performance and brings that same innovation to every ion tyre on the road.

B (2:37)

So, Dan, before we get into our stories, how are you? How's your first few weeks been?

A (2:42)

Good? Yeah, I'm pretty good, actually. I'm trying to kind of tune into the news once a day rather than hourly, which was my kind of modus operandi, sort of the start of last year. I'm trying to, I guess, New Year's resolution, be good to myself, not read the news too much because it certainly is changing fast and it's not always in a good way. So I'm very well. I've just been to the Brussels Motor show, which I'm sure we'll touch on. Last week, actually, I was with Department for Transport in the uk, they just started. TRUMPET BLARING They've just started a new EV promotion campaign in the media called get that Electric Feeling. Yeah, it's just started this week and I was with them and they're kind of agency Saatchi in Golden Square in London to talk through the campaign they're running to see if we can help amplify that campaign. So that was good. And Germany's announced it's going to start subsidizing EVs again, which is good. Although I think they're adding plug in hybrids and EREVS into that. And Canada has just said it's going to start accepting about, I think, 59,000, 49,000, something like that, EVs from China over the next year. So amidst the gloom, there is actually some, some, some bright, bright news as well.

B (4:03)

Well, those are three incredibly positive things, but I suppose we'll reserve judgment until we've seen the campaign from the dft.

A (4:10)

However, I have seen it, I have seen it.

B (4:12)

How did you rate it?

A (4:14)

Yeah, it's good. Yeah, it's good. I, we had a sneak preview last week, so I was with them last week and it's good. I mean, is it, is it, is it great? I think it's really, really good. I mean, the reality is that when it comes to how you talk about something, there's always going to be dogma, there's always going to be some people going, I don't like it, I do like it. I thought it was good. I think one of the key things about advertising, it needs to be disruptive and to be memorable and I think it, it genuinely is. So I'm quite optimistic about that and I'm just pleased that they're being so pro ev and obviously they've got electric car grant, which is, even though Some people might say that that's got its flaws as well. It's out there. They're funding it out to 2030. So I think we're in a much better position than some other countries I might mention.

B (4:57)

And we are in discussion with the Department for Transport to try and get a minister onto the podcast at some point. But as is often the case, their schedules are not necessarily that fun to try and find a little slot in. So I'll watch this space and that should be in the next couple of weeks or a couple of months. So shall we get into it? We have three, three stories today starting of course with Solid State Donuts, Holy Grail or Holy Fail. Now you might need to see that written down. The second Holy, of course had an E in it. We're referring to a hole in the ground. That's a little bit of a. What did we, what do we call you in the trade here? Captain Dan?

A (5:40)

Captain Clickbait? Well, I think, I think it's, I think really that's true. That's fair. But actually it's also just dad jokes really. That's, that's the, the time of my life is I'm right in dad joke territory. And you know, for me I delight in coming up with a really bad joke and then watching my kids faces fall as I tell it in front of their friends. So yeah, that's right up there. Holy grail or holy foul. I mean I came into the energy storage market probably about 15 years ago and you know, the development of lithium ion batteries hadn't really taken off at that point and there was obviously speculation that, you know, lithium ion was going to be the, the holy Grail of energy storage. And so it is proving, you know, it's moving very, very fast. But the reality is new chemistries are coming all the time. Solid state being amongst those touted. But we're already into an era of LFP and sodium ion and things like that. Very, very exciting times. Follow all of the battery manufacturers really, really closely, including CATL, who produce best part of 40% of the, the world's EV batteries. BYD, obviously, huge mover and shaker in that market as well and many others. And we do look at all these battery headlines with a degree of skepticism as to what's coming. But one really caught our eye, not least because it's called Donuts Lab, which I think is a, a good standout name. But it talks about a five minute charge battery with a hundred thousand cycle life, 400 watt hours per kilogram energy density, a battery effectively that can last for 100 years. So clearly that caught our eye. I don't know if you saw that story as well. I know Robert has been down under and he, he, he caught sight of that as well and was fascinated by its veracity and whether it's true or not. But I mean, it could have enormous ramifications for a whole range of different sectors.

B (7:35)

Well, that's it. And you know, I think the 400 watt hour per kilo number is worth pausing on for a second because that's largely considered this, this real target of energy density at the point at which things like electric flight become a bit more of a no brainer. You know, how much energy can be squeezed in a specific weight until that point, you know, there are, we're seeing incremental changes and certainly solid state generally is going to help create a bit of a step up with regards to energy density. But I always feel that if the numbers look a little bit too good to be true, they probably are. And there's no question that clearly they're doing something good at Doughnut Lab. But there is sort of a sentiment that perhaps some of their numbers are maybe slightly overstated or perhaps slightly premature in how they've said them. And there's a really fantastic article in Electric which we'll link to where he very fairly, the author that is, exercises some skepticism. Safe to say.

A (8:32)

Well, it's not like we're in an industry where people have made huge claims that haven't come true. Of course we are in that, that parallel universe. We've seen it time and time again. So, you know, part of me wonders how relevant it really is. You know, the degree at which battery chemistries have already improved. You know, the flash charging that's coming from places like byd, the ultra fast charging that's coming from, from Catl sodium ion, which degrades very slowly, etc. So part of me wonders how, you know, relevant or irrelevant this is, but it is a really interesting story because it would change things significantly. Yeah, I agree. That's a great article. It's kind of headlined this A battery is about to change the world in three months or make this guy a fool. Which is a great, a great setup for, for a story. And it's got a lot of different comments. I mean the, the guy who's actually behind it is actually also chairman of Verge Motorcycles, which we featured on Everything Electric. So he's a kind of a legit businessman, entrepreneur, computer scientist. It's been pretty successful. But yeah, he has set himself up for huge success or the opposite by announcing this kind of miracle battery. And it seems like it won't be too long before we find out whether actually that's, that's true or, or false. The article, which we'll put the link to as well, also does some digging as to, you know, the origins of this battery and what it might be. And it kind of basically points to a. A technology startup in Finland called Nordic Nano, which Donut Lab invested in, and actually the, the Doctor who. Who sort of leads the. The research there. Her focus is on amorphous titanium dioxide nanostructures. So that actually doesn't mean that much to, to me, maybe it means more to you with your kind of engineering background or with the husband who's in the battery industry. You can tell me.

B (10:29)

Well, I think what's very clear is that there's definitely some elements of truth in this. And yes, it remains to be seen whether this will be in the market and within those Verge motorbikes later this year. But I think what we've seen many, many times in the battery industry is that these numbers can be reached in the lab, but it's whether they can be scaled that easily and whether the economics of scaling them can, can make sense, really. Interestingly, last week we were in a battery recycling facility in Plymouth, which is absolutely fascinating because, you know, going into the future, there's going to be a requirement for more recycled content in future batteries and of course, more domestic content. And right now we don't have a single one of the critical minerals that we need for batteries being supplied here in the uk, should they be recycled here. However, suddenly we do have a domestic supply chain and it was really interesting because it was definitely a test of my science brain. So it remains to be seen how well. Or not. Well, I managed to convey that in the episode. But it's also interesting because they are having to recycle technologies that will lag by a few years, the next generation of battery technologies, because, you know, those batteries will exist in the market for some time. So, yeah, it was, it was a good day out. It felt very educational.

A (11:48)

Yeah, well, I look forward to seeing the edit of that before everyone else. That's one of the perks of my, my job. But yeah, I mean, batteries, I mean, isn't the end point here that we have moved so far in the last 10 years and there's still a lot of, a lot of ground to gain in the next 10 years that, you know, fighting vainly with, you know, inefficient combustion technology is a vain fight versus batteries. They've got to go much, much further, much, much faster. They're going to be much more energy dense irrespective. But we hope the donut isn't a theory full of holes. We hope it's real. But you know, we have been here before. So let's, let's, let's see what, let's see what happens over the next few months.

B (12:28)

Well, I'd say to Mr. Donut Lab if he is listening that, that yes, we wish you success. But just remember that you have a greater chance of people believing you and success if you share headlines at the right point and when you have sufficient levels of confidence in them. That is something that we've come across a couple of times in various episodes and we definitely have had conversations where we'll say this is amazing, but it would be better if we do this episode in a year's time when we can really showcase just how brilliant it is rather than at this point. So we'll see. But we could be all be proved wrong and Verge motorcycles could be boasting a 400 watt hour kilo battery which would be fantastic. Shall we move to story two?

D (13:16)

Hi, I'm Chris Gethard and I'm very excited to tell you about Beautiful Anonymous, a podcast where I talk to random people on the phone. I tweet out a phone number. Thousands of people we'll try to call. You talk to one of them, they stay anonymous. I can't hang up. That's all the rules. I never know what's going to happen. We get serious ones. I've talked with meth dealers on their way to prison. I've talked to people who survived mass shootings, crazy funny ones. I talked to a guy with a goose laugh, somebody who dresses up as a pirate on the weekends. I never know what's going to happen. It's a great show. Subscribe today. Beautiful Anonymous.

A (13:49)

Yes, so I think I have inadvertently become kind of Mr. Ev motor show over the last few years. I've spent time developing our own events as you know. You know, we go to a lot of those ourselves. I get to attend lots of events. Last year was unusual in that I traveled some pretty far flung events. We had our own fantastic Sydney show. Not long after that I went to Shanghai, which was mind blowing. I was at Goodwood in the UK with you, which is always a great experience. Munich not long after that. I'm missing some, I'm sure, but I've just been to the Brussels Motor show and at the same time, more or less, there was the CES Consumer Electronics and Technology show in Las Vegas. And I just couldn't help reflect on where we are in the cycle. And it's not just about tech, of course, it's about politics too. So ces, I haven't been to that one actually, and I was asked, are we filming there? We haven't filmed there very often in recent years and at the moment our focus isn't really looking in that direction, we're not really looking west at too many stories. At the moment, there seems to be less going on in the US for no reason I could think of. So we, we may have got an invite OR 2 to CES, but we, we didn't go this time around and we knew there would just be less interesting EV stuff on display anyway. Meanwhile, across the the channel, the Brussels Motor show is growing quite healthily. And there was a great article about CES which effectively said that Detroit had basically deserted Las Vegas and deserted that show. And in fact were more Chinese manufacturers at the Las Vegas show than US car manufacturers, including the likes of Zika and Geely and Great Wall Motors, all playing the long game, knowing that, you know, no wall stands forever playing the really long game and being out there, you know, talking to Californian consumers, tech journalists, etc, which I thought was, was, was fascinating in its own right. I mean, the tariffs are so punitively high, there's no way they can economically offer or sell cars in, in America at the moment. And that wall is starting to crumble with news about Canada. And so that will change and would be interesting to watch that over the next 18 months. But Brussels was fascinating. So if you go to the motor shows, you'll be aware obviously that the, you know, the Chinese ones, Shanghai last year be Beijing this year, they're, they're a big deal. They're very much the cradle of new EV technology these days. I thought the Munich show was fascinating. It was amazing. You know, loads of battery evs there from European brands and from some of the Korean brands and others as well. So that was a brilliant show in its own right. But in recent years, actually one of the other shows that was kind of quite well known as being a big show, Geneva, sort of neutral territory, if you like, has gone away and Brussels is starting to fill that gap as neutral territory where both the Chinese and the other brands can kind of come to play. And I think we're almost at peak Motor show again. It was big, busy, buzzy. It wasn't on the same level. As Shanghai, you wouldn't expect it to be, but it was big and fundamentally the Chinese were there in large numbers. But actually that has brought out all of the others to play as well. So it was really fascinating to, to walk around that show, see what was on display, but also to know is 2026 the last year where we have this many Chinese brands, Isn't consolidation inevitable amongst all brands? Is this kind of peak motor show or will that phenomenon last for two or three years while the Chinese are kind of bringing out the others out to, to play? I'm, I'm, I do think it's great the motor shows are back and they're big, but I do think the overarching trend that motor shows are a thing of the past may still be something that we see in time. But I mean, they're great to attend. Right. If you're a people watcher or you're, you're a car watcher, aren't they amazing to, to walk around these shows? We've walked around a few together.

B (18:11)

Well, I think the last one that I went to actually was Geneva Motor show, which was a very, as you might recall, it was a, the last one after its decades of history. And he was a real damp squib, apart from the Renault 5, which was almost embarrassing because that was such a successful launch. There was so much attention on it, but the rest of it looked pretty embarrassing. And obviously after that there's lots of, you say, oh, Geneva's, Geneva's dead. But it also proves that actually these motor shows have relevance and size and brilliance at particular points in time. And right now Brussels is so important because we've had all of the conversations around, and by we, I mean, you know, the European Commission around the introduction of perhaps a European equivalent Kei car. That's why the Twingo was there in such a huge way. So it was, it felt watching from afar, like a real statement of we are here and we are here to be very serious, but we require certain conditions in order to guarantee our success. For example, laws and regulations, European K car standard, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it was cool to see, really cool. Did you have anything that stood out to you that you saw?

A (19:22)

I mean, you're right, it is a real moment in time. There's lots of new products as well, so that's obviously a big factor. I mean, it's actually quite hard really for me to say all the different cars that I saw. I'm a big fan of the new BMW Neuer Classe cars that they've got coming out. But I looked around the hall, I saw loads of things. This is, you know, it's like being a kid in a sweet shop. A sweet shop where you can't afford any of the sweets, by the way. You know, you see all these different cars that you like. So I saw some fantastic cars, but from. From all of the different manufacturers, really. There's some amazing product out there. Even saw a new Tesla Model S that we can't get here right hand drive in in the uk. That look. Look pretty cool. But I was on the stand with Xpeng for a bit. They got the new P7 plus, which is. Which is great, as you say. Some of the more smaller, affordable stuff from. From Renault in particular. I mean, the Kia and Hyundai are knocking it out of the park at the moment. Some great stuff from. From byd. I mean, pretty much everyone was there, so it was, you know, from that perspective, it was great. But the one thing that stood out to me, I think, which I kind of had a wry smile on my face, was there's a Car of the Year awards that they have more of a European Car of the Year awards that they host the, the announce the winner there and it was busy. You know, they did a sort of live presentation and the excellent Vicki Parrot kind of hosted that and brought in different judges and it was kind of had a Eurovision vibe. They do the scoring. I don't know if you've seen them. Them do it. It was really well executed, really, really well done. Nine cars were up to win the, the. The one award. And I totally get this, by the way, I'm not being judgmental, but of course none of the cars on the list were Chinese. It really is the Europe's awards for, for, for, For Europe. And I find it fascinating we're in that kind of moment in time where there is a little bit of. There's a. There's a kind of a sort of a slight artificiality to the whole thing because the European car comes there on mass because of the Chinese. There's an awards where the Chinese don't get mentioned, but it is a huge elephant in the room. In any event, there were some brilliant cars on the list, I think all of them from European manufacturers, bar. Bar one aa. But the winner actually was the Mercedes cla, which has got a very, very long range. Yeah. So it was great to see that. But they did all the Eurovision style judging. You know, they went country by country, you know, how many points are Germany giving it, etc. Etc. And of course Germany voted for Mercedes, you know, UK voted for. I don't know, I think Mercedes probably won that vote as well. Mercedes won quite comfortably overall, but it was. I just had a rye smile on my face because I just thought. It's a really interesting point where we're at now where the debate, the fight for supremacy is still relatively friendly, but I think it could get a little bit uglier still over the next two or three years as people sort of start to realize that actually there's just not enough share to go around. So it was really, really good show and I'm sure it'll be good next year as well. But the long term health of these motor shows, like you said, they're a moment in time and I do think that it was great to see it kind of come roaring back and be so, so good. I had a. Well, it's not a hard day at work, is it? Let's be honest.

B (22:34)

Well, whilst you were gallivanting around Brussels Motor Show, I was doing a shoot in Sweden with the Volvo EX60 which.

A (22:42)

That looks amazing.

B (22:44)

It is amazing. It is amazing. And there were a couple of people who, a couple of journalists who were there who'd been at Brussels, flew to Sweden for that shoot and then flew back to Brussels. So it was cool to sort of be there and get a bit of a, you know, a snapshot of how everything was going in Brussels. Obviously everyone was losing their minds about the Kia EV2 and I can't say too much about the EX6 because the video comes out tomorrow and it's embargoed until then, but it was, that was a great car. So I was very happy that whilst I wasn't at Brussels I did get to see this lovely new car from, from Volvo. So yeah, that was good.

A (23:20)

No, that look, it looks fantastic. And then they had the Polestar 5 in Brussels which was fantastic as well. They had Hyundai's Ioniq 3 to come, the Staria. I mean the list just goes on. I mean it really is, I mean for car design I think it's a great, great time.

B (23:38)

Yeah.

A (23:39)

You know, I know people sometimes label some of the EVs as being a bit samey looking, but actually I think this is a real kind of renaissance in, in car design. So yeah, it was a, it was a privilege to, to, to be there and have a look around but ultimately I know that when I go to Beijing in April I'm going to see a lot more new product because actually the flow from last year's Shanghai show, I saw a lot of that Then at our shows, I saw that at the Munich show, I've seen it, the Brussels show. I think actually the, you know, the beginning of a lot of this stuff actually is now China and so Beijing. I expect to see a lot more new products, but more products, more affordability, cheaper cars, all these sorts of things. It's got to be good for the consumer. It's got to be good for EV uptake.

C (24:23)

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B (25:24)

Your business HAP segues, perhaps seamlessly, maybe clunkily will remains to be seen. To our third story.

A (25:33)

Foreign.

B (25:39)

You wrote stressy Stellantis but the actual headline was Stellantis's European boss has admitted there is currently no natural demand for electric vehicles with car makers left burning cash. I imagine this headline made you a little bit cross.

A (25:55)

I am trying my best to remain level headed and calm. I think for, for me I identified long ago that being kind of a rebel rouser on the outside of the industry really serves no useful purpose apart from to ensure you're not invited to everything at the same time. I guess our role is quasi journalistic in nature and we need to be able to ask difficult questions. But I've taken the view of late that actually I really want to help all the car companies to, you know, access the audience that we have to, you know, I guess take the, the cleanest line of least resistance to, to selling these cars. And I, I do have a lot of sympathy actually. The closer I've got to the car industry, the more sympathy I have with the dilemmas that, you know, car executives face on a daily basis. So to see a story like this claiming those no natural demand for ev. Yeah it did. It sort of. It got the Neurons firing. I wasn't very happy when I read it because I thought that's kind of, that's kind of really lazy critique of what's, what's actually going on. And rather than just sort of kind of rage against that, I think for me it speaks psychologically to the pressure that is on some of these companies because that statement is so provably false, so utterly ridiculous that this is me pulling my punches. By the way, this, that, you know, from my standpoint, it speaks to a lot of internal strife at some of these companies. And again, I have huge sympathies. How do you make this work in a fast changing world? How do you make cars profitably? Full stop. But some of the stresses that Stellantis and others are going through are fundamentally down to the whole market and not just ev, but some execs have convinced themselves, convinced themselves that actually it's ev. That's the, the bug, it's ev, that's the problem. But there's a lot more going on there like in terms of the cost of supply chains and other things and the consumer very, very clearly wants ev. You know, we have engaged with Stellantis a little bit over the, the years and actually I think they're doing quite a good job bringing brands and new cars to market. There's some, there's some really, really good stuff. I have been told, you know, when I've spoken to them about doing the shows that we do, for example, that you know, there's never any kind of money in the pot and, and having seen them do a big motor show in, in Manchester recently, having seen the size of their stand in, in Brussels, I'm, I'm afraid so. I've been, you know, slightly gulled by, by, by that.

B (28:58)

Yeah.

A (28:58)

But you know, excuses aside, I, I really would love to see everyone survive. I just don't see how they can. I'd love to see Stellantis survive. I think they're doing some really interesting things. They've got some great vehicles. It's good that they've got Leap Motors as part of their stable now as well. So I'm, I'm totally on their side. So I wonder how a comment like this lands internally. Because on one hand you've got Leap Motors as a commitment, you know, which really is only about selling pure evs or I think they've got some, some range extended electric vehicles as well. Hope to film with them soon. What I've heard they're really, really good. Equally, you've got lots of people within the Stellantis organization trying to sell evidence to say there's no natural demand, though to me is must be infuriate some of the people within the business itself. And that I think is the danger if the culture is not all facing in the same direction. You know, that really is a comment which says we want to go back to the past.

B (29:56)

Yeah.

A (29:57)

And that isn't true. We know when people get in EVs that 92% of them, this is Global EV alliance figures will never go back to combustion engine vehicle. We know the sales figures are up in almost every market. But what he's saying is they need stimulus and subsidy and incentive to survive. There is stimulus and subsidy and incentive, some of it over the long term, some of it's still there for fossil fuel industry, you know, and ultimately if you're going to moan about the fact that it would take subsidy and incentives, you should also be moaning about the fact that there's so much misinformation, industrial scale misinformation over a period of something like 15 years, that of course it's a little bit harder to sell pure EVs than you might originally have thought. But that's, that's the misinformation and I don't see people complaining about that. So I do find it to be a source of real frustration. So this is turning into, into a diatribe. But there is natural demand. It's sometimes being suppressed by doubt, fear, uncertainty, all those things which is just maybe delaying people. But if you really want the market to go a little bit faster in a way that car companies really want, I think because you've got to develop these cars over years product, lifestyle marketing, you don't want to chop and change. You don't want the market to be see sawing all the time. You want it to be more predictable. And the misinformation piece is a big part of that. So adding to that misinformation directly from the mouth of someone at a car company is really disappointing to see.

B (31:26)

And the thing is like with the benefit of the doubt hat on, when he's looking at the impact in natural demand, I do think that there is a reaction from consumers that should the rules change, for example the 2035 deadline or the nature around that 2035 deadline or if subsidies are removed, it does send a signal to the market to say, ooh, we've told you to go in this direction and now we're having doubts about that SOS and so it does instill that doubt or perhaps makes people a little Bit more hesitant to make those decisions. And especially for a brand like Stellantis who, you know, they, they cover a broad cross section of different price points. They're impacted at every single different point in the market. So that's my benefit of the doubt hat on. But the harsher hat that I'll now put on instead is like, well, if you don't think there's a demand and you don't think there's a natural demand, work harder to make that demand, make your products desirable. Like, otherwise you're just complaining. And we don't have space for moaning myrtles here in this industry, 100%.

A (32:31)

But you know, as soon as this issue, soon as this topic, as soon as the sector became political, that was a really super bad sign. I think any new market needs some pump priming, it needs some of that. You know, that's inevitable. We live in a world now where lots of people have platforms on LinkedIn and everywhere else. And you know, you can't help notice recently that BYD overtook Tesla for sales. Did you hear about that on LinkedIn? I heard about it 7,000 times on my feed in about three days. You know, so everyone's got an opinion. But the reality is that EVs are a cheaper, better technology and that's ultimately why they will win. Of course there's going to be fighting about that. Of course there's going to be people who try and resist that, but it is frustrating to see it from quite a senior figure because that is misinformation. There is natural demand for EVs and yes, there would be much, much more. So if we all work together to rid ourselves of misinformation, that has kind of blighted this subject. You know, the reality is that whatever you think, whatever the statements like that do, what they don't do is they don't deter the Chinese and other companies, other countries from making better products. They will keep coming, they will keep doing this ultimately. So if you don't take care of the future, the future will take care of you.

B (33:51)

Yeah. And so in a couple of weeks time, I'm going to Paris to interview the CEO of Renault Group, Fabrice. And I feel having read this article, it's perhaps time to reach out to the European boss of Stellantis and say, look, European boss of Stellantis, Emmanuel Capilano. Are you being a moaning myrtle? Let's have a little chat and see what we can do.

A (34:14)

But those are, I think I've made that harder today. But you know, from my perspective, you know it is frustrating. I actually have a lot of sympathy, like if you say something which is kind of real world and it's hard and I totally get that. But saying things like that, that definitely, that's triggered me, I have to say.

B (34:35)

Well, that does conclude our three stories today. Oh, but I have just seen. Sorry, I've just seen this at the bottom of that article that Tanya Sinclair, our lovely chief executive of Electric Vehicles UK was quoted in that article. So plot points to Tanya.

A (34:49)

Yeah, she was, yeah. No, I mean fundamentally that was running the Telegraph and GB News and elsewhere. But you know, her might be a good endnote really. She said, you know, the environment is challenging, but one thing remains consistent. Consumer demand for electric vehicles is real. And she reminds us that prices are becoming more competitive, choice is expanding and vehicle quality continues to improve. That's, you know, a good end note really. It's not like battery EVs are going to go away. They're going to get better and better and better and the sooner that people stop ostriching about that, start accepting that, the better for, for all of us, I think 100%.

B (35:31)

So we'll move to our last little segment which is now I've got the name. I've changed the name each time, but.

A (35:38)

Peaks and troughs, wins and fails, ups and downs. I mean, whatever you want, Imogen.

B (35:41)

You know, roses and thorns, but you know, you name it. But who, who, who's on the up? Who's on the down, in your opinion this week?

A (35:48)

Yeah, that's a really, really good question. I mean, I think for me, Canada's on the up, I would say. I think that is a very sensible decision to, to. To break from Trump is kind of looming, towering over the news cycle at the moment. I think Canada has had been given very little choice but to start to seek partnerships elsewhere. And we're seeing a lot of this, you know, America is the kind of lodestone of culture that's, that's changing and actually America's doing brilliant PR for China and Chinese stability and Chinese sort of future thinking. So I think for me Canada is, has made a really, really smart decision. Downs of the week. I'm trying to think of anything noticeable. I mean, I think I would just start on a positive note. I think years started quite, quite well in the EV sector. I think from, from my standpoint, Brussels Motor show was, was great. I, I think downs of the week. I don't know if I've got anything. I'm particularly feeling motivated inside the EV industry this week, but I'm sure if you ask me outside of the EV industry, I could, I could say what is going on with Greenland? But that, that's another, that's another subject. Maybe we need to tie about that to minerals and resources at some point. That is a whole nother kettle of fish.

B (37:14)

Well, on that note, we probably should leave it there, but I'm going to say that next week I will be in the Netherlands, so I'll be recording from the Netherlands where I will have just interviewed the CEO of Windrose Trucks. So I'll have more to report on that next week. But in the meantime, Dan, I hope you have a wonderful rest of your week. To everyone listening, thank you so much for joining us for this podcast. Please do like and subscribe and share with a friend and all of the things that honestly, we can't tell you enough how much we appreciate them. But that's it. If you have been thank you for listening and watching.

C (37:49)

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