Sandy Munro on Telo, Redwood, and Ford’s Bold Play Against China’s EV Giants!

Summary

Everything Electric Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Sandy Munro on Telo, Redwood, and Ford’s Bold Play Against China’s EV Giants!
Host: Robert Llewellyn
Guest: Sandy Munro (Automotive Engineer, Munro & Associates)
Date: August 18, 2025

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Overview

This episode features a wide-ranging and lively discussion between host Robert Llewellyn and renowned engineer and automotive expert Sandy Munro. The conversation dives deep into the realities and challenges of electric vehicle (EV) manufacturing, cutting-edge developments at exciting new companies (Telo, Redwood Materials), Ford’s strategic moves against China’s EV dominance, and the urgent skills crisis facing American and European manufacturing. With trademark wit, irreverence, and a touch of indignation, Robert and Sandy examine not only technology, but also the social, economic, and educational currents shaping the future of sustainable transport and industry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. EV Uptake in America and Market Realities

Timestamp: 05:02–08:27

• Despite political and media pushback against renewables, sales of electric vehicles in America are rising.
• Sandy highlights that direct experience with EVs tends to convert skeptics:

  “If you get people into an electric car… It’s very difficult to get them to go back to, ‘Hey, let’s put a little more gas in.’” (Sandy, 07:57)

• Anecdote: Sandy leases a Ford F-150 Lightning Platinum, praises its luxury and performance, and tells a story about convincing his chiropractor to test-drive it—ending with genuine surprise at the EV’s appeal.
• Battery storage demand in Canada is so high that some are buying up cheap Canadian batteries for export to the U.S.

2. Ford’s Secret Announcement & Reactions to Jim Farley

Timestamp: 08:42–10:40

• Robert references a compelling recent talk by Ford CEO Jim Farley.
• Sandy can’t share details but hints at a major, game-changing Ford announcement:

  “It’s completely contrary to everything that everybody else is saying… You’re going to get a kick out of it. I was super blown away.” (Sandy, 09:53)

3. Telo & The Next Generation of Compact EV Trucks

Timestamp: 11:01–15:50

• Munro passionately discusses the Telo truck, calling it a “step change” in EV design—compact but ultra-capable:

  “Two inches shorter than a Mini Clubman... but I can put 4-by-8 plywood in it laying flat, and close the door.” (Sandy, 12:07)

• Praises Telo’s innovative engineering, “everything is engineered and it’s brilliant.”
• Sandy cryptically references a breakthrough Telo battery system he cannot yet disclose but says it’s something he’s advocated for 20 years:

  “Gobsmacked… That vehicle coming in at the price they want to sell it for—All day long.” (Sandy, 14:08)

4. Slate: Modular Vehicles for the Next Generation

Timestamp: 14:08–15:50

• Slate impresses Munro with its upgradable, convertible platform:

  “I can buy it as a pickup truck… add seats, turn it into an SUV… turn it back… as my family grows, I can add more stuff. This is the perfect—like the Mini, only on steroids.” (Sandy, 14:33)

• Asserts it could be an ideal lifelong vehicle for young drivers.

5. Trades Skills Crisis in the US and Europe

Timestamp: 16:03–21:29

• Both discuss a severe shortage of skilled tradespeople—toolmakers, mechanics, plumbers—in US and Europe.
• Sandy skewers the US/UK education system’s bias against trades:

  “Why are we looking at anybody that goes into the trades as a dummy?... The only thing I can’t fix is a crack it [sic] on.” (Sandy, 19:00)

• Tells story of a young plumber making $150k/year, owning multiple vehicles and a house by 23.
• Blames the university-for-all push for eroding the manufacturing workforce:

  “It’s called milking the morons… You get these kids… lied to in high school…” (Sandy, 20:44)

6. Chinese Manufacturing Dominance & The Cost of Outsourcing

Timestamp: 21:29–26:33

• Both acknowledge China’s exceptional manufacturing prowess—“they’re really good at making things”—pointing out that America, Germany, and Japan helped train China’s industrial workforce.
• Concern that the West is repeating the mistakes of empire by outsourcing its manufacturing.
• Sandy draws a cautionary parallel with the Roman empire:

  “They outsourced.” (Sandy, 22:06)

7. Redwood Materials: Rethinking Battery Recycling & Circularity

Timestamp: 22:11–28:32

• Sandy describes a visit to Redwood Materials, lauding their innovative and surprisingly simple lithium recycling process:

  “[Redwood] take batteries in, roll them around, heat them up, gases burn off… they grind themselves down to nothing… Then they just use a skimming process for each density.” (Sandy, 23:03)

• Many batteries from crashed cars are simply redeployed for stationary storage.
• Emphasizes the near-absurdity of old myths about EV batteries being “thrown away”—real-world examples like a Rotterdam stadium using 15-year-old Nissan Leaf batteries for solar storage.
• Shares a practical tip: buy an old Leaf and cheap solar panels for DIY home energy, with his monthly power bill at only $11 thanks to solar and batteries. (27:40)

8. Solar Economics & Un-politicizing Renewables

Timestamp: 28:45–33:22

• Solar is often more affordable than traditional roofing; more UK homes now have solar “built in from the get-go.”
• In Australia, solar’s cross-party appeal comes from sheer economic sense:

  “Solar panels initially… were seen as a liberal progressive, blah blah… now you see a house without solar and go, ‘look, there’s one!’” (Robert, 32:00)

• Robert asserts wind, solar, nuclear aren’t political—they’re just technology.

9. The Fate of the Chevy Bolt and the South American Opportunity

Timestamp: 34:08–39:21

• The Chevy Bolt’s journey: “First Bolt was a piece of crap… then fix everything, then shut it down.”
• GM + Hyundai/Kia alliance aims to conquer South America’s challenging roads and exploit the continent’s lithium, cobalt, bauxite resources.
• Sandy predicts: “I know everybody’s saying, ‘Oh, well, we’re going back to diesel.’ No, we’re not… Teenage kids are coming up and they aren’t going to want that crap.” (Sandy, 38:25)
• Expresses excitement for the flood of next-generation vehicles from Ford, Telo, Slate, Aptera, etc.

10. Regulatory Gridlock and Automotive Innovation

Timestamp: 39:47–41:39

• Legacy auto companies are hampered by decades-old regulatory requirements and testing hoops.
• Newcomers like Telo and Slate are more agile, unencumbered by “standards for 1957.”

11. Can American Startups Compete? Rivian, Lucid & The Tariff Threat

Timestamp: 41:39–44:16

• Lucid’s future is secure thanks to funding from Saudi Arabia’s PIF.
• Rivian, despite early success, faces existential threat from new tariffs targeting Chinese-made components:

  “The tariffs are going to kick the daylights out of them… They’ve got a $3 billion problem.” (Sandy, 43:32)

• Cites the dangers of outsourcing knowledge and manufacturing:

  “If you don’t manufacture, you go out of business because manufacturing is where you find out the rules and regulations for… the next generation of design…” (Sandy, 44:57)

12. The Lost Art of Making Things: Historic Perspective

Timestamp: 47:48–54:20

• Both mourn the loss of domestic manufacturing capacity in the US and UK.
• Sandy tells how, growing up, all household goods were made locally.
• Criticizes the legacy of GE’s Jack Welch and a profit-over-production mindset.
• Warns that ceding core manufacturing (like ball bearings or magnet technology) for cheap imports leads to strategic weakness.

13. Only Manufacturing (and Agriculture) Create Real Wealth

Timestamp: 53:54–55:10

• Munro’s worldview:

  “There’s only one way, as far as I’m concerned, to generate wealth, and that is with manufacturing… Without manufacturing, you have a service economy that’s doomed to failure. And just ask the Romans, they’ll tell you all about it.” (Sandy, 53:54)

• Says “service economies create peasants,” and that reluctance to discuss these uncomfortable truths gets him labeled a bigot and outdated.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Telo truck’s design revolution:

  “This is a step change from everything else… 2 inches shorter than a Mini Clubman, but I can put 4-by-8 plywood in it laying flat.” (Sandy Munro, 12:07)

• On trades skills & education failure:

  “The only thing I can’t fix is a crack it [sic] on… This is the biggest problem we got in the States right now. No tool makers means, hey, no tools.” (Sandy Munro, 19:00)

• On recycling batteries, not throwing them away:

  “Batteries will last longer than the car… even when it has worn out we’re still not going to throw it away, it’s too valuable.” (Robert, 22:29)

• On the importance of manufacturing:

  “If you don’t manufacture, you go out of business because manufacturing is where you find out the rules and regulations for… the next generation of design…” (Sandy Munro, 44:57)

• On wealth creation and economic doom:

  “Without manufacturing, you have a service economy that’s doomed to failure. And just ask the Romans, they’ll tell you all about it.” (Sandy Munro, 54:20)

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Key Timestamps for Segments

• 05:02 – Start of EV sales and cultural dynamics in the US
• 08:42 – Ford’s secret announcement and Jim Farley’s leadership
• 12:07 – Telo truck: size, design, battery innovation
• 14:14 – Slate’s modular EV concept explained
• 16:03 – US/European trades skills crisis
• 21:29 – China’s rise as manufacturing powerhouse
• 22:41 – Redwood battery recycling process
• 27:40 – DIY home solar, battery economics, Sandy’s $11/month bill
• 34:08 – Chevy Bolt’s failures and South America’s EV opportunity
• 39:47 – New vs legacy automakers: regulation bottlenecks
• 43:32 – Threat of tariffs to Rivian and Ford
• 47:48 – Reflections on the collapse of domestic manufacturing
• 53:54 – Manufacturing as the source of real wealth

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Tone & Style

The dialogue is frank, witty, at times indignant, but always passionate and laced with practical anecdotes. Both host and guest are unafraid to criticize industry leaders, policymakers, and cultural attitudes, but do so with humor and a desire for real-world solutions.

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Summary for Listeners

This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the future of EVs, manufacturing, and sustainability. Sandy Munro shares hard-earned insights—from the shop floor to the boardroom—reminding us that technological progress is inseparable from social systems and human skills. The episode provides hope in new products and recycling breakthroughs but warns of the need to rebuild the skills and manufacturing capacity that make true progress possible.

Transcript

[Sandy Munro]

Foreign.

[Robert]

Welcome to another Everything Electric podcast coming to you, as you might have noticed, from my new studio. Slightly different. It's all changing a bit with all the changing names and I've changed. It's not quite finished yet. Needs a bit of. A bit of refinement and polishing, but nonetheless, I've had the. This is the first podcast I've recorded in my new studio and I have to say it was enormous fun. Now, there are elements of this podcast where two quite old men have a bit of a whinge, but I think it's a legitimate whinge. You know, they're having a bit of a moan. We both are. So we are gentlemen of a similar age. My guest today is Sandy Munro from the United States and he is just an extraordinary figure in the world of. Of engineering primarily, but in specifically automotive engineering and now specifically battery electric vehicles, he knows a thing or two about battery electric vehicles. He's a really extraordinary guy. But I just. Before we dive into that, I just want to remind you that because they are extraordinary events. So there's three extraordinary events. I'll do the. That we've. That we're involved in. There's four. Four extraordinary events. The first one is going to be Everything Electric Vancouver, which is going to be amazing. Absolutely incredible. I won't be there. First time I've missed a show through planning and logistics. I'm. I'm not going to be in, in Vancouver, which, you know, I really regret now saying, all right, I won't go to Vancouver because it's just most beautiful city and it is the most extraordinary event as well. Really, really good event. So that's happening. That is on the 5th, from the 5th to the 7th of September. So that's quite about a month's time. Then after that we've Electric south, which is at Farnborough in the uk. And adding on to that. So that's two events. And adding on to that event is the Zap Heap Challenge tests, which we're going to record in front of a big audience at that event. We've got it. We're building a huge test arena. Oh, my God, it's going to be incredible. And Colin Furze will be there along with the teams, along with Jack Scarlett and Imogen Bogle, presenters. And we'll all be there and they will be amazing. And the, the two team, the four teams have built four incredible machines. But you will sort of. At each day you will see one test with two teams and all the Mach. All the machines are electric and they're powered by batteries and they have wires and they have a bit of software and we hope they work. They will, they will work. How long they'll last because some of them are quite extreme. And then we have. Which I am very much looking forward to, Everything Electric Melbourne in Australia in November, the 14th and 15th. I haven't done the dates of Farnborough. The 11th and 12th of October in Farnborough and then the 14th and 15th and 16th of November in Melbourne, which I'm really excited about. And apparently that is going very well because it's the first time we've done one. So it's a bit of an experiment, but we're really thrilled to be doing it. So that's. I'm looking forward to that. And I will be at both Farnborough and Melbourne. But that's. That's enough about all the live events and Zapheap Challenge. Oh, my God, it's so exciting because we've now made the. Oh, it's. It could be incredible. You might not like it. Who knows? I wouldn't want to judge. That's it. I want to dive into Sandy because Sandy is amazing. He's an extraordinary man. We've known him a long time and he's been at our live events, he's talked to, he's been on stages. He's such a great communicator about the importance of engineering and how we don't have enough engineers. It's kind of. That become. That's a kind of thread of this, this particular episode. I'll shut up. Please welcome to the Everything Electric podcast, Sandy Munro. Our three free YouTube channels on EVs and cleantech are funded by a fun packed test drivetastic events in Farnborough, London, the Southwest, the North, Melbourne and Sydney. And next up, we're in Canada for Everything Electric Vancouver and new for UK viewers. You can now buy a battery, EV and much more at everythingelectric store. Sandy, this is such a thrill for me and thank you so much for finding time to do this. Getting well. Have you got up early today to do this?

[Sandy Munro]

Well, I didn't get up early. I got up at the normal time, but there was a little confusion about what time I was supposed to be on.

[Robert]

There always is. No, I'm sure whatever is wrong, it's going to be my fault. There's no question of that.

[Sandy Munro]

Well, as long as we got someone to blame, everything's good.

[Sue]

That's good.

[Robert]

That's what it's all about.

[Sandy Munro]

That's the way business works. Yeah.

[Sue]

Yeah, yeah.

[Robert]

But it's great to talk to you because, I mean, there's a lot of topics that I really want to catch up on that are happening in the United States. I mean. Very well, let's start with the very first one, because the most recent figures I've just seen, literally last week from Kelly's Blue Book, show a fairly marked increase in sales of electric vehicles in.

[Sandy Munro]

Yeah.

[Robert]

In America, which I think as an. As someone outside the country would go. Well, I'm surprised because it feels like there's been such a huge pushback against wind, against solar, against all those things. But clearly it hasn't affected the electric car market yet.

[Sandy Munro]

Well, it hasn't affected the electric car market because quite frankly, the more people. I believe. Anyway, I'm not 100% sure here, but I believe the more that a government or any kind of ruling party or whatever wants to cram something up here or. Sorry, you know, whatever. But, but at the end of the day, the more they push, the more people get skeptical and the more people that get into an electric like. Okay, so I, I had to give back the Tesla Cybertruck that I was driving, right? And, and, But I need a truck, okay? So guess what? Yesterday, Yesterday I went down to the Ford dealership and I, I didn't buy it. I leased it. Because we're going to be talking about some cars that I'm going to want to buy in the future, right? So I went down and leased a F150 Lightning Platinum. Oh, my God. Okay. Does it have self driving? No, but I drive mostly myself anyways. I like to drive. I mean, but everything else. Oh, my God, the thing is so luxurious and it's smooth and it's cool and it's quiet.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

How could you walk away from something like this? And It's. Give me 300 miles of range. I got my little adapter plug and I can get into any, any Tesla Charger.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

I mean, once you drop. And so I. Yesterday was a big day. I got the truck, but I also went to get my back adjusted. Too many airplane rides.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And. And so the guy that adjusts my back and whatnot, he says, oh, wow, cool truck. That's a Ford, right? Is that. Did you get an F150? I said, I got a Lightning. It's an EV. You know, I've never driven one. Threw him the keys, right. He went around in the parking lot. Okay. I saw him go around in a parking lot. Then he disappeared. He disappeared. Hey, so I'm paying for this what's going on here? So anyway, he sent a message and the next thing I know I got Brand X squeezing my back. So, okay, fine. So he comes back, parks it and says, I really like that.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

I mean that's what happens if you can get, if you get people into an electric car. Yeah. It's very difficult to get them to go back to, hey, let's put a little more gas. And the kids are all, the kids are all puking. Well, that's okay. You got to tough it out. I mean, electricity is the way to go. And as far as the other stuff, it's all quiet. You can't believe how many people are putting him. I've got a friend of mine in Canada, he's trying to buy up as many, as much battery storage as he can get.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

I mean, and in Canada it's cheap. But he doesn't sell to Canada. He sold back to the States.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

So there's tons and tons of stuff going on right now with wind and, but it's all done on a qt.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Robert]

But talking of Ford, because I saw the amazing, amazing talk that Jim Farley, CEO Ford, did recently at some conference in Phoenix, I think it was, and he was just so articulate and erudite and clear and, you know, not very kind of calm. His arguments were based on things like scientific fact, logic, experience.

[Sandy Munro]

Yeah.

[Robert]

Engineering know how. But isn't that, they've got a big announcement coming up then. Ford have, I mean, do you, do you know anything about that?

[Sandy Munro]

Well, yes, I do. It's going to be on Monday. I highly recommend you watch. But, but I like Jim Farley. I think he's one of the two or three guys on the planet that I, I'll listen to, but they nailed my, my lips shut. I'm gonna be there actually for this announcement, but I can't, I can't go into any depth. But it's going to come out tomorrow. Oh, sorry, Monday. And, and I, I, I recommend you, you stay tuned.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

I think it should be on many, quite a few of the channels.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And it's completely contrary to everything that everybody else is saying.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

That's, that's about it. I can't, in fact, I shouldn't even have said that last thing. But, but at the end of the day, watch it. I really, I, I, I mean it, you're, you're going to really get, you're going to get a kick out of it. I really think it's going to, and I was super blown away.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

And there's video of me in there looking at this vehicle right while it was being developed. And you can see what kind of clothes I've got on. And I'm, this is like March or something like that, right?

[Robert]

Okay.

[Sandy Munro]

So, yeah. And I wanted to do a video but they, they held it back. So this is, this is a really, this is really big, big stuff for, for Ford, but I can't talk about it, so let's move on to something.

[Robert]

Yeah, yeah, no, that's fine.

[Sandy Munro]

Before I get myself in a world of hurt here.

[Robert]

Yeah, the good, the only good thing from your point of view is this will go out after the announce, so it's fine.

[Sandy Munro]

Oh. Oh, cool.

[Robert]

Yeah, so. Yeah, I think so. Or it'll go out on Monday anyway, whatever it happens.

[Sandy Munro]

But he's earlier than mine.

[Robert]

We, we have, true, we have an early Monday.

[Sue]

You're right. Yeah.

[Robert]

But the, the, because I'm sort of fascinated by the vehicles we can't see or we're not going to get over here. The Aptera being one of them because I was there when they launched another, the latest version. We don't talk about that yet. But the Tello truck, I've seen so much stuff about the telomeres, hello truck that it just looks like a, it looks like a, a generational step in automotive thinking. You know. You've seen it. You've been to see it, have you?

[Sandy Munro]

I, I, I'm telling you what. Okay, so the Ford vehicle that I saw, watch for that on Monday. I'm pretty impressed with that. And that's one of the main reasons why I didn't buy the F150 Lightning is because of what I've seen.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

So that's one thing. But Tillo, oh my God. Blew me completely away right now. We should save Tillo actually for the end. Okay, but, but nobody, nobody cares about that because dessert is what you eat first, right? You could, you could die. Maybe there's a fish bone or something and you could die. You might never get jello.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Two inches shorter than a mini Clubman.

[Sue]

Wow.

[Sandy Munro]

Two inches shorter. Okay. So I put that in. That would be like whatever 60 millimeters or something like that.

[Robert]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Okay. So at the end of the day it's 2 inches shorter, but I can put 4 by 8 plywood in it laying flat.

[Sue]

Wow.

[Sandy Munro]

And close the door, the gate. Wow. Cab forward design. And, and it's engineered. They did absolutely nothing. That, that, that comes from the old spec. Everything, everything is engineered and it's brilliant. I'm telling you what I was so blown away. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. This is. This is a step change from everything else. And is it, you know, a diesel? No, it's electric. Oh, well, you can't get like. And they showed me some. I can't talk about that either. I got so many things. I mean, one of these days, somebody, some Russian guy is going to assassinate me or something.

[Robert]

But, you know, too much.

[Sandy Munro]

Their battery system, which I can't talk about.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

Just blew me away. I couldn't. I couldn't fathom. I've been saying stuff for about 20 years. Why don't we do this? Why don't we do this? Why don't we do this? And these guys said, okay, Sandy, we're going to show you something. You can't talk about it. Why is that? Well, you talked about it for a long time. We actually did it. And here it is. What's the old term? My dad used to use it all the time, gobsmacked for, you know, for an American or a Canadian. You never hear that term. That. That's because my dad was Scottish. So right at the end of the day, that's what I was. But that. That vehicle coming in at the price that they want to sell it for.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

All day long. And that's only one. The other one Slate, is that on the agenda?

[Robert]

Yes.

[Sandy Munro]

What. What a perfect vehicle for a kid, for starting out.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

I can buy it as a. Excuse me. I can buy it as a. As. As a. As a pickup truck, you know, Plain Jane pickup truck.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And then I can add seats and I can turn it into an suv. And then if I need to, I can turn it back into a pickup truck again. As my family grows, I can add more stuff to it. Things for the kitties. This is the perfect. This is like the. The Mini. When we, when we worked on the Mini with BMW, the idea was we want to have as many options as possible that they can buy and put them on themselves. Because the Mini buyer in those days anyways was somebody who was kind of like a mechanic that wanted to get things done. And that's exactly what Slate has done, only like. Like I say, on steroids. It's just amazing. Amazing. I watched them turn it from the Plain Jane pickup truck into the ultra SUV that you can get with it. And I saw it done in an hour and a half.

[Sue]

Wow.

[Sandy Munro]

Three guys. An hour and a half. All done.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

This is. If I would have had that as a kid, that would be my first and probably only car ever. Yes. I mean, why would I need anything else?

[Sue]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

So for me, that, that's a, that's a really big one till O. And, and, and Slate just blew me away.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

I mean it really, really and truly.

[Robert]

And they're both American companies that, I mean, I think this is relevant to the current climate. But they're both American companies that are making those vehicles in America. They're not shipping the manufacturing overseas. Is that their plan? I mean, they're going to.

[Sandy Munro]

Them in the usa, they're going to try and manufacture as much as they can in the usa. But there is a gigantic problem that most people don't even know. There are no tradesmen left in the States.

[Sue]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And, and it's, it's almost as bad in Europe when German guys saying that, you know, we have, we have a shortage of tool makers. Holy mackerel. We can't find a plumber around here. That's because the school system is so buggered up.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

I mean, oh, you have to go to college and get yourself a degree and blah, blah. No, you don't. You do now. So I, I can do anything. I was a toolmaker before I was an engineer and the only thing I can't fix is a crack it on. And I went down. My wife is complaining because there's a pipe leaking in the basement from the sump pump and I don't care. I don't want to do it. I'm old and it's plastic pipe and I hate that. So anyway, we call up a kid and he comes down, this guy's 20, 22, 23 years old.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

He is a certified plumber. And the reason for that, because when he was in grade school he was a big dummy. And then when he went to high school, he was a big dummy because why? Because they were teaching him. He didn't want to, he didn't care about.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

So his uncle said he was 16. His uncle said, why don't you come with me? And he started to trade. A plumbing trade. Illegal. It's illegal to do that. You can't train anybody for the trades until they're 18. Why, why is that? I was 16 when I, when I started out. Why, why, why can't you do that? Why? No idea. No reason. It's so they can suck them into going to university and getting a degree that'll make you suitable for a Walmart greeter. At the end of the day, this kid come in, sized everything up, gave us a bill that I, you Know, and, and then he, he finished it off. Then he started telling us about his. His life. Yeah, he's now making something like 160, 000 a year. That's in dollars, of course.

[Robert]

In his early 20s. Yeah, yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

So. And. And he's 22, 23, something like that. He has his own truck.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

He has two motorcycles. One of them is a classic, an old Triumph Bonneville, I think. Yeah, he has. And he has two cars and he has a house.

[Sue]

Wow.

[Sandy Munro]

23 years old and he's making about 150 grand a year. What are his friends make? And he graduated from high school at the bottom of the class, and the only reason he got out was because his girlfriend helped him cheat so he could get out of high school.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

Why is this? Why, why are we looking at anybody that goes into the trades as a dummy?

[Sue]

Yeah, really bad.

[Robert]

It's so bad.

[Sandy Munro]

Go and get a professor to try and fix his. His pipes.

[Robert]

His pipes.

[Sandy Munro]

Anyway, at the end of the day, this is the biggest problem we got in the States right now. No tool makers means, hey, no tools.

[Robert]

You can't make anything.

[Sue]

Yeah, yeah, can't make anything.

[Sandy Munro]

No dime, no molds. What are you going to do?

[Robert]

That is very true here too. It's very true all over Europe. I mean, somehow. It's somehow more shocking in Germany just because they've been at the forefront of manufacturing and making things, you know, since the end of World War II. They've been incredible. You know, they're well known for making things really well. You know, German stuff is well put together. And if they are short of engineers and tool makers and, you know, mechanics.

[Sandy Munro]

Now every tracement, every trade, it doesn't matter whether you're swinging a hammer or designing the next rocket ship, everybody's short. And the reason for that is because the school system is bent towards sending kids into, into universities and colleges with sugar plums in their head. I mean, Sue's got this great big long diatribe on some. Some girl that wanted to become an Egyptologist. Well, I bet you they need 50 of those on the whole planet.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And, oh, no, you have to have a PhD and then you can't get any money. Nobody will hire. You have to work for free. It's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous. The school system. And I, I gave a lecture at a big schooling whatever. And what did they call, the process is called milking the morons.

[Sue]

Wow.

[Sandy Munro]

Milking the morons.

[Robert]

That's horrible.

[Sandy Munro]

That's. So what you do is you, you get these kids that, that, that, Oh, I want to help the poor. Okay, good. You're going to get a master's degree in social sciences or whatever. How many do they need? Maybe more than 50. Yeah, but not, but not, not millions, that's for Damn Sure.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

60% of the people who graduate now say they were lied to in high school. Sorry, 70%. And 60% of them have a job that pays peanuts. Yeah, but they got degrees. I mean, it's ridiculous. So we have in, in the state, we have it on the planet, except for China, a huge problem with, with tradesmen. Huge.

[Robert]

Yeah, yeah, huge. Well, that's, yeah. No, you're absolutely right. And when, I mean, I've been in China this year and you just see such a different attitude there. It's, it is, you know, for all its, there's plenty of things you, we can be very critical of China very legitimately, but my goodness, they, they're, they're really good at making things, you know, that's become very, very obvious.

[Sandy Munro]

And, and we taught them, they, they got taught by the Germans and the Americans and the Japanese.

[Robert]

Yes, absolutely.

[Sandy Munro]

Man, you talk about, Anybody ever read, I mean, you know, what happened to the Roman Empire? They outsourced.

[Robert]

So obvious, isn't it? It's so obvious. But I want to move on just because the one.

[Sandy Munro]

Yeah.

[Robert]

Company I'm really fascinated by is Redwood. So. Have you been to Redwood? Yeah, I mean, because that's a, you know, because that argument, I think is critically important. You know, when I hear, and I still hear it a lot, oh, I'd love an electric car, but I'd have to buy a new battery or I'll have to throw away my battery. Oh, what a shame. You have to throw away the batteries after three, all this ridiculous stuff that people have been told for the last 15 years and you go, well, you don't you want. One, you won't throw it away. Two, the battery will last longer than the car. And three, even when it has worn out, we're still not going to throw away because it's too valuable. But you, but they are such a good proof of that.

[Sandy Munro]

Right? Well, that there's, there's, there's two proofs that are out there. So, so I was, I was out there, I looked around, I made a really quite a long video. I think it's out right now, but.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

A big video. I, I, I was blown away by what they were doing and how they're recycling. The recycling process is absolutely 100 contrary to what I thought. I thought, okay, dip Them into liquid nitrogen, crash them up, crush them up or whatever in an inert atmosphere. Went. Nope, they don't do that at all. They take them in, roll them around, and initially they have to heat them up. But, but as they're rolling around, they create heat. It, it burns away all the gases and, and because of this tumbling action, everything turns. I mean, it grinds itself down to nothing. And then they, they just basically use a, a skimming process. So everything has its own density.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And, and then they skim off what they need. And I was walking in a plant where they've, they're pulling, they're pulling lithium out tons. Big, giant bags of this stuff.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

I mean, this is the way to go. And then the, the batteries, a lot of batteries that were in car crashes and whatnot, they examine them and if they're not damaged, if they're, if they have no, you know, physical damage, they're not going to recycle them. They have a field. It's got to be, I don't know, it's in, it's in square miles. Right. I can't remember. 10, 15 square miles. Who knows? A lot. And they got one over here and one over there and one over here. And then they got solar panels and they're just laying on the ground.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And, and they, they, they pay nothing. They, they pay nothing for all the energy that they use. Yeah, everything.

[Robert]

They're using the batteries to store the solar overnight and all that sort of thing.

[Sandy Munro]

Yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. It's, it's totally mind blowing. So I, I don't usually want to plug things, but there is a, there is a thing with J.B. straubel and, and, and Redwood, if they're interested in how it actually works.

[Robert]

We'll put the link in the show notes. No, it'd be a really good thing to do. No, because.

[Sandy Munro]

Yeah. Anyways, that thing will really blow your mind. And quite frankly, that is what my friend in Canada, Randy, Randy Furlan, he is. That's what he's trying to do right now.

[Robert]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

So I put him in touch with a bunch of different people and there's others that are doing it, but everybody's doing it on a QT because it's not socially acceptable now, you know.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

So. So there's a lot of things going on in the, in a recycling.

[Robert]

Right?

[Sandy Munro]

A little bit. Because everybody's starting to find out now that why recycle when I can reuse? That's. Yes. A whole lot cheaper, better all the way around.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Robert]

I mean that's the thing that we, I saw many years ago. I believe we've got to get the city right. You know, it's Rotterdam. The huge football stadium in Rotterdam in the Netherlands has, you know, enormous amounts of solar on the big roof that goes all around the stadium. And they're using old Nissan Leaf batteries, but they've been using them for years. I think what's interesting about that was it was a big story when it first came out, I don't know what, 10 years ago, but they're still working. It's the same batteries. So they're like 15 year old Nissan Leaf batteries. They're fine and that, and they, all their spotlights and their heating and everything in that stadium is run off solar and batteries from old cars. You know, that's.

[Sandy Munro]

Yeah, it's not even the thing. I mean when people ask like there's, there's a couple of names of people that I have that, that are on my little list of folks to contact. And so people are saying, well, I'd like to get solar panels and batteries, but it's too expensive.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

How much is an old Leaf worth? What? Well, if you buy an old Leaf for maybe five, six thousand dollars, it's got a battery and. Oh yeah, but the Leaf, blah, blah, blah, forget it. Just buy that and, and, and, and, and build a little shed around it. That's it.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And then as far as solar panels, there's a ton of solar panels that you can buy that are not the highest grade imaginable. Slap that on your roof and the next thing you know. But get a real electrical engineer.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Okay. So. And the next thing you know, you've got a battery in a vehicle that right now. Okay. You're not going to drive it. But that thing is bigger than. I have batteries here. I, I got a Tesla wall.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

There's more batteries in the Leaf that I got in my basement and I did put up solar panels. And so my, my electric bill or my wife and I's electric bill is $11 a month.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

That's it.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And we charge our cars here too. Yeah. And we're not allowed to make money off the grid.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

But last year we got true up payment of 11 cents.

[Robert]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

So we got we 11. 11 bucks a month. Which is the, which is a line that comes from. We have to have a line here.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Which comes from the grid. Okay. And that, that rental fee for that one line is 11 bucks a month.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

Okay. And that's where the $11 is otherwise we pay nothing.

[Sue]

Zero.

[Sandy Munro]

And we run on solar pretty much all the time.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

So it's there, it's available. I don't think big business is real interested in hearing, hearing that you can do these things on the cheap. But, but at the end of the.

[Robert]

Day, but also, I mean it make. If you are a big business and you've got a big. Where, you know, this is finally happening in this country where there's like a big distribution center, a big warehouse and they're going, oh, if we put. Oh, I see. If we put solar on the roof, you know, it's like, yes, that's been the case for a long time. I think it's because we passed that point where this was the building industry in the uk. An event I went to where someone explained that for the cost per square meter of putting tiles on a roof of a new house is higher than putting solar panels. Solar panels are the cheapest way of covering a roof. So, you know, that has shifted thinking finally. But it's still not that much. But finally you now see new houses going up and they do have solar panels built in from the get go, which is, you know, and then it becomes very cost effective.

[Sandy Munro]

But okay, so here's, here's what happened at my house. Sue and I had arguments. I wanted to put panels up and, and, and batteries in the basement. Finally she said, hey, if you want to do it, you take it out. We have, we have our money and her money and my money. Yeah. So our money we don't touch. Right. My money went into buying this stuff. I paid, I think something like 45 or 50 grand. Solar panels, battery packs, everything else done. Right?

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

So anyhow, sue said, you're never going to get a return on your investment. Okay, fine. Then something strange happened. So we bought this house for $550,000. Now it was loaded with bushes and trees and vines and whatnot. We had to strip all that crap off and I had to put in a new driveway. The value of the house now because of the solar and batteries, $1.5 million.

[Sue]

Wow. Wow.

[Sandy Munro]

I got my return on investment not through electricity, but because now we've got something that people find desirable and are willing to pay for. Wow. And, and believe me, when I had a real estate, I just jerked the person around. I'll apologize to her one of these days if I ever meet her. And, and I, and she said, well, I would really like to sell your house. Oh, well, my wife and I are thinking, no, we're not. But what, what would You. Well, I drove by and I noticed that you have solar panels and blah, blah. What is, what are your utility bills? Eleven bucks a month. Well, I mean, what about in the wintertime? $11? Well, what happens when snow's on the, on the panels? I have a large broom. I just, I sit, I get on a ladder and I just pull the snow off.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Whoa. Really? I mean. Yes, really. Anyhow, that. She's the one who gave me the million and a half thing.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

Yeah. And she said this is the kind of house that anybody would want to have. And I don't know much about buying and selling houses.

[Robert]

No, me neither.

[Sandy Munro]

But, but it really worked out real well for us.

[Robert]

Yeah, that's, that's one of the things I loved when I was last in Australia. The, the, I had a discussion with someone who, who works, who has worked in the national grid in Australia and their whole grid thing, but who said that what they noticed, what he noticed was that solar panels initially, so we're talking maybe 20 years plus ago, were seen as a sort of liberal progressive, blah, blah, you know, green tree hugging, all that stuff. And then eventually the person who lived next door to the tree hugging green progressive was a kind of Republican and then went, but saw their utility bills. And that's crossed the political spectrum because you basically, particularly in Australia, their peak demand is mid, middle of the day with air conditioning, you know, and, and that's weak solar. So it's become the most solar intensity. You know, if you, if you drive around Australia, you'll see a house without solar panels. You go, look, there's one. Because they all, you know, it's really, really common there. And that's a, I think that's a fascinating. I mean it kind of gave me a bit of hope for electric vehicles. It's in a similar way because I've always argued nuclear power isn't political, solar power isn't political. Wind turbines aren't political. They're just technology.

[Sandy Munro]

Exactly.

[Robert]

Which either works well or it doesn't. You know, you can decide on that. But it's not, it's. There's, you know, the politics that's been sort of thrown at them is.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Robert]

Secondary.

[Sandy Munro]

Well, at the end of the day this is like. What is that term? If it bleeds. It leads.

[Robert]

It leads. Oh, absolutely, yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And, and that's, I mean people pick up their newspaper or watch TV and think, oh, oh, this is fact. No it's not. They've got it. They've got to sell cornflakes. That's what they're there for. They're not there to tell you the news. They're there to get you to buy the latest pair of sandals or a purse or something. Who knows? But that's it. That's their job. They're just an advertising station that happens to throw stuff out. And how do you catch people's attention? Easy. You just tell them that the world's coming to an end and they'll be white on rice.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Robert]

Sales of EVs that I'm just not aware of in this country that are doing really well. I mean, because I do remember seeing a lot of General Motors. What's, what's their little. Their sort of compact kind of hatchback, I call it. Really. The bolt. The bolt?

[Sandy Munro]

Yeah. Yeah, the bolt. The bolt is out of business. They.

[Robert]

That's, that's.

[Sandy Munro]

General Motors has drank the Kool Aid and they're moving, they're moving everything to, you know, big V8 or something.

[Sue]

All right?

[Sandy Munro]

So. But I am going to be seeing one of their vehicles. They've asked me to come down and look. Now, General Motors, as a rule, does not want me to do anything because, Right. I am not a, I'm not a paid commercial. I, Nobody, Nobody's going to buy my favor, period. I, I, I'm too old. I got too much money. I don't need anybody to tell me what to do or where to go. So they are, they are paying Monroe Live, right, to, to have me come on and assess one of their vehicles.

[Sue]

Right?

[Sandy Munro]

And I said, you got to be kidding me. They. They're out of their minds. If I see something wrong, I'm going to tell them.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And apparently, according to what? Eric, the guy that runs Monroe Life.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

He said, they, they totally expect that. And I said, well, what happens if we do this thing and they don't like it? Are they gonna, they're gonna take it down?

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And he said, I don't know, but they're paying us. So it, It'd be up to them to, to say, nope, you can't do it.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

So anyway.

[Robert]

But an electric vehicle, Sandy, it's an electric car.

[Sandy Munro]

Yeah, Right.

[Robert]

Okay.

[Sandy Munro]

It's an electric something. They've been very secretive about it and, and whatnot. But the bolt, the first bolt was a piece of crap.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Robert]

That was brought out.

[Sandy Munro]

The second one, oh, my God, the improvements. I couldn't stand that either. Then they brought out the third one. Sue and I went on and extolled the virtues of this car.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

We were blown away. Everything that we thought was Goofy or terrible, they fix, right. And then two or three months later they announced the closing and got rid of it. Because they came out with crap initially. Yeah, they finally figured it out and then they shut it down. Why? Why? I mean there's been tons of Kia. Remember, remember that? They used to be the worst piece of crap on the planet and now, I don't know if you're aware of it, but GM and Kia, Hyundai and Kia, gm, Hyundai, Kia are, are bound together now trying to take over the South American market. So the, the best minivan that I know of is the Kia Carnival.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Beats everybody. And, and, and GM makes great pickup trucks. Now if, if they hit South America with two vehicles that are really needed and wanted and can put up with the South America's got some incredibly bad roads and if they can survive those roads, I mean they'll dominate. They'll dominate. South America and South America is poised because they've got the, the lithium triangle is in Peru, Bolivia and Chile. Okay. That triangle, that's got more lithium than everybody else, period. And it's easy. You get to 2 kilos per town, per ton out of the water that, the salt water that they've got. I mean, so they've got lithium, they've got cobalt, they've got bauxite which can be turned into aluminum. They've got, they've got everything needed, right, that, that China and the United States in Canada don't have.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Okay. And if they get their crap together and they can, you know, keep one ruling party in before a hunter or whatever they call those things. Yeah, they could, they could be dominating the, the planet. They could take over for China.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And they, they've been training, they've been training tool makers and people like that all over the place. So I see, I, I know everybody is saying, oh well, we're going back to diesel. No, we're not. Yeah, we're not going to do that. And there are people that are working on small engines and stuff like that, but guess what? Kids don't like gasoline. I don't care what anybody says. You can, you can, you can go after the 45 to 60 year old market if you want to, but the teenage kids are coming up and they are going to want that crap. And these we talked about, well, Ford's going to have something that I think is going to be really impressive.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

And then you've got Tello and you've got Slate and you've got a dozen other. You were talking about Aptera. I love that car. I have one on order. I mean, great.

[Sue]

Okay.

[Sandy Munro]

Yeah. So I, I, I like the idea of not paying anybody to, for my convenience. Okay. I, I, I don't want to, I don't want to pay anybody for anything. But they are. Aptera is being chased down by some, I don't know, there's a whole bunch of people that want them all gone. And then you've got these smaller companies who've done marvelous things on a show stream.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

I mean it. So I believe that the, the imagination, the engineering, the lack of restrictions. The biggest restrictions for all of the bigger companies from Audi to xyz. I don't care who every, everybody there.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Is all these legacy rules.

[Robert]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

That, that were perfectly good in 1957.

[Sue]

Yes. Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

But they're no good now. Why are we still, why, why is it that you have to go through all these hoops to jump in and try and find materials that you can use?

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

These guys have already tested it. Well, they're lying. No, they're not. Why are you wasting your time, 10 years of development to figure out that you can use something that's been in the market for 20 years.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Where I don't see the logic there at all. And that's what these other guys are doing. They're doing Tello, especially Tello and Slate. Well, actually the Ford everybody that is going to be alive in the, in the next 20 years.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Is making decisions right now that say standards, forget it. And we're not gonna, we're not going to waste our time with, with, you know, what happened in, in 1957 or 67 or any of those days. I mean they're old. You don't, you don't look backwards to see the future as a rule. I mean you really, you can learn from history, but you shouldn't repeat history. Yes, that's, that's, and that's what, that's what really it boils right down to.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

The people who want to repeat history are always going to lose. Just ask anybody who had had bow and arrows versus. Yeah. Guns. Yeah.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Robert]

But I mean, I think it is interesting that, and I'm really got my fingers crossed, but companies like Rivian and Lucid in particular in the United States. So new companies, you know, when you think of how many new car companies were started up between say 1945 and 2000, there was very few, basically. And what we've seen is a huge number of them. Most of them have gone under. So all the European startup companies we saw when they first had A prototype and they launched it and it was a lot of hoo, haha. They've all gone under, you know, they've not survived. But, and I, I expected the same. Like what, there was a Faraday future, you know, But I remember when Faraday future launched and Lucid and I went, these guys are not going to make it. But Lucid, I think, I mean, I don't know. Are they doing okay? Are there, are they selling cars enough?

[Sandy Munro]

Well, they're selling cars, but not very many. The deal here is though that Lucid is funded by the Saudis under the right. The personal or sorry, private investment fund or something. I can't remember.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Anyhow, that they're not going to have a problem. And then Lucid is owned by Piff, but Piff also owns Siri, I think it's called Siri, which is a small car that's electric car that's being built in Saudi Arabia. And that car, that product line will probably also be manufacturing Lucid vehicles for the European or, or you know, the Arab, the Arab world. And, and I think that that's how they'll survive as far as, as far as Rivian. Rivian was doing fine. But the tariffs are going to kick the daylights out of them.

[Robert]

Oh really?

[Sandy Munro]

I think they could, they could live without, you know, the $7,000 that certain people would get if they bought one of those vehicles. Yeah, but, but the tariffs, and that's because they're announcement something like $3 billion it's going to cost them. That's the same as Ford. Ford is 3 billion from. Because of the tariffs. Yeah, they, they, they've got a, they got a. I don't know how they're going to do it. I don't know how they're going to bring back all the technology that they, that they need in order to, in order to escape the tariffs that are going to come from China and Europe and wherever else.

[Sue]

Yeah, yeah.

[Robert]

So there. I didn't realize that. So Riviana are using parts and components that are manufactured in China, I guess is that, is that they're manufactured.

[Sandy Munro]

It's like everything else. The consultants, 30 years ago when I was at Ford or 40 years ago, the consultants were coming in and they were saying, oh, you should outsource everything. So the first thing that happened at Ford was they outsourced instrument panels and seats and some of the electronics. And I said, you know what if you don't manufacture.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

You go out of business because manufacturing is where you find out the rules and regulations for Whatever the next generation of design should be and can work, if you don't have that, you, you lose profound knowledge. And as Dr. Deming used to say, profound knowledge is the only thing, only thing that you need in order to succeed, you know, to be profitable in, in the future. And so I had my little statements and I said what I said, but it's impossible to argue with the big consulting houses. The big house consulting houses said this. Sandy says that Sandy was so smart. How come he's still here? Why isn't he a consultant?

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And that's when I left Ford and I became a consultant. Guess what? Right after that, Sandy, we want you to redesign the 351W engine. And on and on and on. That was. So it kicked off my career.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

I was smarter when I left. And, but as long as you've got people that are saying, hey, you know what? Send it to China because it'll make it cheaper and you'll make more money, which means you'll get a bigger bonus.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Boom, you got their attention.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Hey, send that to China. These guys here are ripping you off. And you can control the Chinese. Yeah, got it. Again, there's a whole bunch of these snap phrases that, that the big, the big consulting companies use and hook, line and sinker, board members, CEOs, presidents, everybody jumped on that bandwagon.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

So now we don't have any tradesmen.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Now we don't have any tool shops. Now we don't have any. We, we depend heavily. I mean, where's the engineering done? India and China.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Getting done here. I mean, you can, you can find places like the, the companies we just talked about.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

They have a lot of internal, but they still, they still require.

[Robert]

Yeah. We live in a global economy at the end of the day, I mean, whether for good or bad, that is the way things operate at the moment. You can fight against that. And we, I mean, and it was, I feel, I've always felt that it was a mistake. We did exactly the same thing in this country. We outsourced, we offshored all the manufacturing. You know, they used to, I, I, it's so easy to forget because the actual physical remnants of it have gone. So where there was a huge car factory is now a shopping center or a housing estate is gone. So it's gone from history. You don't even remember it. You know, but we used to make, I mean, when I was a kid, and you, you would be the same. All the cars that my dad had were made within 100 miles of where we lived, because that's what happened. I mean, tens of thousands of people worked in those, in those industries and they've completely gone now.

[Sandy Munro]

I mean, well, I, I talk every once in a while, somebody will ask me for, you know, big moments that I, I've lived through. When I was a kid, everything, everything we had in a house, everything we ate, everything came from either Canada, where I was living, or the United States.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

We made everything.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And one of the things that was really a big deal was General Electric, who made everything from light bulbs to nuclear power plants.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Everything was made by ge.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And then we got the savior of the universe. What was his name? Jack Welsh. And what did he do with ge? He got rid of everything.

[Sue]

Wow.

[Sandy Munro]

He turned it into nothing. GE now makes jet engines and I don't know if they make anything else. That's it. And, and they're probably going to lose that too. He sold everything down to nothing.

[Sue]

Wow.

[Sandy Munro]

Down to nothing. And that is the apex. When you, if you go to New York, there must be shrines all over to this guy. Oh, what a smart guy. Look at right. How he destroyed ge. And, but the, but the shareholders got some, some money.

[Robert]

Got money.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

That, that's the kind of mentality that we've got in the US and, and actually I, my, one of my all time favorite comments is, who invented the ball bearings? Who invented that? Great Britain.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And quite frankly, if they would have kept that to themselves.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

There would been no battleship that could have withstood anything that, that, that came out from, from a British battleship.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

There would have been. I mean, think about it. Ball bearings are everywhere.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Who invented the, who invented the modern magnet? The. Yeah. That was done here in the United States.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

But they, they shipped it out. Why?

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Was it the inventors that shipped it out? Nope. It was a bunch of financiers that came from New York.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Oh, we can get it cheaper in China. Yeah. And look at that. And we don't have to dig up any, any sand pit that, that might have, you know, neodymium or, or disposium in it. See, we, we've saved all these lizards.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

What's happening now? Everybody's kind of looking around for neodymium and.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And, and disposium. And guess what? We've got tons of it here in Canada and US.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

But you can't get a permit to dig a hole and you never get a permit to refine it. Oh, no. Think of the children. That's the other Big statement. I think it was in the 60s where we started using the term think of the children.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

That is the biggest farce ever.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

You just say that everybody melts and reaches for their wallet.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

It's a big lie.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

It may have been the truth sometime when it first came out, but now it's nothing but a big lie.

[Robert]

And, I mean, that's the thing about manufacturing. You know, if you've got the image of manufacturing being a dirty old factory with a big chimney with smoke coming out of it. I've. I've been to old factories like that that are now museums, which. So that would have been. Maybe then we should have thought of the children because they were working under the looms in the weaving mills and all that stuff. But, I mean, that's. That's history. You know, it's very. You know, you go around a modern factory now, for a start, it's very few people because it's all robots and machines whizzing about. And they're very clean. You know, they're not. They're not dirty environment. We got to wind up. Sandy. But I just want to. That is. I mean, your history and your knowledge of that, the way that shift has happened, I think. And I feel. I feel that I need to explain that to the younger generation, because if you've been born, say, in the last 30 years, everything was always made in China.

[Sandy Munro]

Yeah.

[Robert]

I think that's, you know, that's just your world. That's how it is. Even the last 40 years, really, the huge amount of manufacturing and of the thing like our refrigerator and the kitchen sink unit and the. The. Yeah, everything. It's just extraordinary how that's happened and that's happened in our lifetimes. And, you know, that this is. I think we mentioned just before we started, but that. That there are things that your current president is doing that I absolutely agree with, but I don't agree with how he's doing them. But, you know, manufacturing should be. There should be tool makers in America. America should be able to make things same as we should and other European countries should, you know, that we've lost that skill and we're paying the price for it now, and we're struggling to find a way out of it, you know.

[Sandy Munro]

Well, I have a fabulous illustration that I use in one of my presentations, and it's. It's a rickshaw with a Chinese guy sitting in the rickshaw and a British nobleman with a pith helmet on.

[Robert]

Oh, yes.

[Sandy Munro]

Pulling it. Okay. Yeah. And. And that. I got that illustration done in 1984.

[Sue]

Wow.

[Sandy Munro]

And it's in the title was when the. When the master becomes the slave.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And I, I tried to put that across when I was at Ford.

[Sue]

Right.

[Sandy Munro]

In the 80s and. Yeah, in the 80s and I, I was laughed at.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

Okay, fine. Laugh all you want now. Now tell me what's going on. There's only one way, as far as I'm concerned, to generate wealth, and that is with manufacturing. If you don't protect manufacturing, you can't create wealth with services.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

It just doesn't happen. And by the way, when I say manufacturing, I'm also including things like agriculture. And the reason for that is because you have to take the beans and boil them and put them in a can. That's manufacturing. And without manufacturing, you have a service economy that's doomed to failure. And just ask the Romans, they'll tell you all about it.

[Robert]

Yes, well, that's the thing. A service economy functions by taking money that already exists because it's been created by manufacturing, raking it in and giving it to a very few people. You know, that's how it's, that's how it's panned out. And that. Yeah, that's the.

[Sandy Munro]

Yeah, that's how you create peasants. And, and quite frankly, when I put that, when I put that slide up, people cringe and they. Well, that's just ridiculous. And, and I've heard everything from. I'm a bigot.

[Sue]

Yeah.

[Sandy Munro]

And I. Well, what the biggest one is. You don't know what you're talking about. You don't even have an mba. And right there. I mean, I mean. Yeah, I'm surprised I'm on your show, really.

[Robert]

Yeah, we should.

[Sandy Munro]

You're not listening to the right people.

[Robert]

Yeah, no, you are definitely the right people, Sandy. It's been brilliant talking to you and I love it. I love all that stuff. And I mean. Yeah, I. We will put a link to the, your redwood, your show about redwood materials. We'll put a link in the show notes for this because that is. Yeah, I really. I will watch that with great interest. But that's been fantastic. Thank you so much for your time, Sandy, today. It's been great.

[Sandy Munro]

Thank you. I'm glad that I, you know, you're still, you're still talking to me. I mean, thank you. Thank you so much, Robert. I really appreciate it.

[Robert]

Well, I really hope you enjoyed that. It was a great time. I love talking to Sandy. We, we actually, when we stopped recording, I thought we must stop recording because otherwise we, God, we talk for another hour afterwards. Maybe we should have just had a two hour podcast, but yeah, I thought. Anyway, it was great, that's all. Please do tell your friends about the Everything Electric podcast. And please do subscribe if you haven't already. And please do check out Everything Electric Cars, our main channel, if you haven't seen that. And please do come along to one of our live events if you're anywhere near where they're happening. And that's it. As always, if you have been, thank you for watching.