Taking Australia's temperature? And can its '2nd city' overtake Sydney's EV uptake?

Summary

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Everything Electric Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Taking Australia's temperature? And can its '2nd city' overtake Sydney's EV uptake?
Host: Robert Llewellyn
Guests: Sarah Aubrey (Electrify This), Tom Gann (Ludicrous Feed)
Date: November 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

Robert Llewellyn sits down in rainy Sydney with EV experts Sarah Aubrey and Tom Gann for a wide-ranging, lively discussion focused on the rapid evolution of Australia’s electric vehicle (EV) market. The conversation covers major EV adoption milestones, ongoing policy challenges, shifting public perceptions, and Australia’s unique position straddling global trends and local realities. The episode is peppered with humor, personal anecdotes, strong opinions about big vehicles and beeping dashboard alerts, and several key data points on infrastructure and clean tech adoption.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rapid EV Shift in Australia (03:00–05:00)

• The guests reminisce on how dramatically the EV landscape has changed in just a few years, with a flood of new brands and models now hitting Australian roads.
• Quote: “Even in the family... they had electric cars, and [I was] going what's happened to this country?” – Robert (03:37)
• Key vehicles like the BYD Atto 3, BYD Dolphin, and Tesla Model Y have catalyzed adoption.
• Charging infrastructure has notably improved, but public perception lags behind reality.

2. Charging Infrastructure: Myth vs. Reality (05:30–08:20)

• Expansion of public charging, Tesla opening up its network, and new high-power sites from traditional companies like Ampol.
• Quote: “The general public who don’t own EVs still think it’s not there yet … but people who own EVs really don’t complain about that.” – Sarah (05:54)
• Ongoing misconceptions in both Australia and the UK about insufficient charging for “ordinary families.”
• Counterpoint: “It’s so much easier having an electric car out of a city.” – Robert, on rural charging vs. city constraints (07:11)

3. EV Sales Data & Market Trends (09:22–10:31)

• Latest figures: 12.1% of new car sales are pure EVs (not including hybrids)—up from 9.6% last year.
• Market plateauing, but still positive growth; recent months have seen consistent double-digit sales.
• Surge in brands and models available across Australia.

4. The BYD Effect & Big Utes Debate (10:31–12:21)

• BYD’s growing presence—through service centers, sponsorships, and new releases—has boosted adoption.
• Introduction of large electric utes like the BYD Shark sparks mixed feelings, especially regarding suitability for urban environments.
• Quote: “It is almost as high as my head. That bonnet, it’s just huge.” – Sarah (11:44)
• Concerns about large vehicle fit in city streets and parking.

5. Regulation, Noise, and Emissions (12:21–14:41)

• Notable lack of strict exhaust or emissions legislation in Australia until recently.
• Discussion on vehicle safety standards: some large US-imported trucks on roads without full ANCAP ratings.
• Quote: “Is that because they just know they would—if the hood is as big as my head—fail so badly?” – Sarah (13:49)
• Annoyance about modern cars’ excessive safety alert sounds (“bings and bongs”) due to safety standards.

6. Safety Features: Help or Hindrance? (14:41–18:24)

• Universal frustration over incessant, sometimes overly-sensitive driver alerts, especially lane-keeping assistance.
• Quote: “If I spend that much money on a car, I should have the right to turn it off completely.” – Sarah (18:24)
• Some improvements in more recent model EVs with customizable driver profiles, but challenges persist—especially for those test-driving or using press vehicles.

7. Hybrid & Plug-In Hybrid Debate (22:08–24:48)

• Explosive sales jump in plug-in hybrids; marketing often positions them as “electric cars you don’t need to worry about.”
• Frustration about resources being locked into transitional tech rather than full EVs.
• Quote: “I just wish that we could just embrace … I feel like there’s a lot of narrative pushing that fear still.” – Sarah (23:46)

8. Long-Distance Driving and Real-World Needs (24:05–24:40)

• The average Aussie drives under 42km a day; ‘range anxiety’ often fueled by perception, not reality.
• Quote: “We have this perception that we’re still a very big country, that we need to do two laps of the continent every second day...” – Tom (24:04)

9. Electric Scooters, Bikes & Urban Mobility (26:36–29:18)

• Australia’s lag in electric scooter/motorbike adoption compared to China and Europe.
• Explored possible reasons: competition from e-bikes, lack of supportive infrastructure, risk perception in SUV-heavy city traffic.
• The “arms race” towards bigger cars making smaller EVs or scooters less attractive/viable.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On BYD and EV Brand Growth:
  “I think they’ve done a phenomenal job. Their footprint is growing by the day … a sporting sponsorship is the key to brand recognition in this country for sure.” – Tom (10:31)

• On Big Utes in Sydney:
  “Those narrow streets, sharks in my neighborhood … these are roads designed before the car was even invented. That is bold.” – Sarah (11:55)

• On Safety Tech Overload:
  “I just don’t want to be reprimanded for minor infringements in my car. Oh, 1k over the limit—no, no, I just don’t want that.” – Sarah (17:01)
  “The lane keeping assistant is suicidal.” – Robert, on his MG4 (19:46)

• On Perceptions vs. Reality:
  “Average Aussie drives 50 to 100k—not even that. 50ks a day. That’s ridiculous.” – Tom (24:19)
  “That is universal around the world. In America that’s the average mileage...” – Robert (24:32)

• On Urban Air Quality Improvements:
  “The air quality in London has … improved really noticeably … and then I get out, walk out of a house in Sydney and go, well, a bit stinky. I really noticed it.” – Robert (32:00–33:36)

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Renewable Energy & Home Storage Boom (35:45–38:51)

• Breaking news: Over 100,000 home batteries installed since July 1, 2025, due to a federal rebate.
• Quote: “Every nine days, a South Australian-sized Hornsdale battery is installed in Australia just by the rebate alone.” – Tom (36:04)
• Rapid growth has triggered coordinated opposition online by anti-renewables groups and politicians.
• Uptake of rooftop solar remains highest in the world—now covering up to 40% of Australian homes.

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Future Outlook & Key Takeaways

• Australia’s EV transition has accelerated dramatically but faces unique challenges: urban vehicle sizes, slow rollout of urban-friendly mobility, persistent misconceptions, and policy lag.
• Home energy storage is booming, and large-scale battery installations are outpacing grid-scale “big battery” records.
• Electrification of public transport—especially buses—emerges as a crucial and achievable next step.
• Behavioral, regulatory, and cultural factors (size, status, regulation skepticism) still shape much of the EV and clean tech debate.
• The hosts and guests express hope, but also impatience: Australia is surging forward, but much remains “still to be done.”

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• 03:00–05:00 — Explosion of EV brands and infrastructure in Australia
• 05:30–08:20 — Charging infrastructure growth and persistent misconceptions
• 09:22–10:31 — Current EV market share statistics and new models
• 10:31–12:21 — BYD’s influence and the arrival of big electric utes
• 12:21–14:41 — Regulation, emissions, and the culture of large vehicles
• 14:41–18:24 — “Bings and bongs” of safety tech—drivers’ frustrations
• 22:08–24:48 — The hybrid/plug-in hybrid surge and concerns about transition
• 26:36–29:18 — Why electric scooters haven’t exploded in Australia
• 32:00–34:12 — Anecdotes about air quality changes in Sydney vs. London
• 35:45–38:51 — Home batteries, renewable energy uptake, and the social media backlash

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Tone: Engaging, witty, conversational, data-driven, sometimes exasperated but ultimately optimistic.

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign welcome to another episode of the Everything Electric Podcast. Coming to you from the lucky country down under from Australia. And today I am joined by two really, really fascinating guests who know a thing or two about not only the global electric vehicles market, but also the specifically Australian electric vehicle market, which is a fascinating case study. So please welcome to the Everything Electric Podcast, Sarah Aubrey from Electrify this and Tom Gann from ludicrous feed. Our three free YouTube channels on EVs and cleantech are funded by our fun packed test drivetastic events in Farnborough, London, the Southwest, the North, Melbourne and Sydney. And next up, Everything Electric Melbourne and new for UK viewers. You can now buy a battery, EV and and much more at EverythingElectric store.

[B]

Welcome both of you. This is so good to have you online. And we were just saying before we started that we almost look semi professional. We've all got proper microphones, proper cameras. I'm thrilled to bits. It's really, it's really good. Sarah, I'll start with you. I mean how. One, how are you? And two, how is Australia? Just a general.

[C]

It's a rainy. Do you know what? We had a 38 degree day. Just talk about the weather for a second, which everyone just, I mean I was wildly disturbed that that happened in spring and now it's like a cold winter day and it's raining. I'm like. So it's a bit miserable in Sydney, but one's spirits are buoyed by being here today, Robert. So thank you, thank you so much for having me.

[B]

And what about Tom? I'm not sure where you are. Whereabouts are you in the. Geographically.

[D]

Yeah, I'm also in Sydney like Sarah, just across the bridge. The bridge. And yes, it's also raining on the north side as well. But Sarah said It was, was 30s a week ago and it's like what teens now it's a 20 degree drop, which is crazy. Absolutely crazy.

[B]

And the other day we heard from people we know on the Gold coast, It was over 40 degrees for one day and then the next day it was raining and cold, which is. Yeah, that is not my impression of Australian weather. That's a bit weird. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Anyway, yes, that's.

[D]

It must be.

[B]

I don't know why we're talking about the weather.

[C]

That is, that was my fault. I brought it up. I apologize in advance.

[B]

No, no, it's fine. It's my fault. Can we just quickly do the one. I think that is interesting. So a lot of viewers will know, but I'm a sort of regular visitor To Australia. I'm married to an Australian so I have a strong emotional connection with it. Not all positive. Being married to an Australian woman, it can be challenging. She's married to an old pom and she knows that that is extremely challenging. But the one thing I've noticed I had a long gap when I didn't come because of COVID and all those things and then other work related stuff. So there's quite the longest gap been to Australia and in that gap the, the previous time we pre Covid we'd been there I noticed quite a few Teslas. There was a Tesla supercharging network that was about it. I mean there were one or two European made electric cars but it was really rare, it wasn't a big thing. And when I went back I think in 2023, first time I'd been there for a long time, I was like going around what happened. You know it was a really noticeable shift. Loads more Teslas but also loads of other cars. And that was when my sister in law, you know I didn't even know she had a BYD ATTO3. She was one of the first people to get one. My niece has got a BYD Dolphin, you know so the, and so like even in the family and it's a big extended lovely Catholic family from Queensland, you know they had electric cars and going what's gone, what's happened to this country?

[D]

It's gone upside down.

[C]

I reckon that jump from even 2023 to 2025 has been really massive, don't you reckon?

[D]

Yeah, oh totally. Like it's funny Robert brings up the BYD out of three. I reckon that car actually kicked things off that was launched in August 2022 and because I just recently reviewed the Ariya and Nissan General manager said in Australia that it wasn't launched three years ago in Australia because he didn't felt the market was ready at the time three years ago. And Sarah, you know, three years ago it was a huge. It was a different market, different world in Australia, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

And, and looking back three years, yeah it was only the Atto 3 Model Y smattering of European EVs, a couple of Korean ones. But Robert like now it's it everywhere you look there's a different brand coming to Australia, you know in droves which is great. Great for us.

[B]

No, it's incredible isn't it? And also the, the other thing I noticed because we drove long distances to see people was the, the growth in charging, you know the charging infrastructure and there was one charger that I went to. That was just extraordinary. And I don't know where it was, I wish I could remember, but it was somewhere between Sydney and Albury, I think, or Aubrey Wodonga and Melbourne. It was somewhere. It was at the back of a building where there was a, you know, fuel station at the front building and then around the back was the new chargers had been put in and the one at the far end. I said, I've got to use this one. There was no one using them and I. You reversed in and there were deep trenches in the concrete. So someone had used it when the concrete hadn't set out later from. And they said, oh yeah, we put up tape and everything. We'd only just laid the concrete. But someone wanted to really need to charge.

[D]

Desperate.

[B]

Really easy to park in the right place because they'd done it well. So you just fell into the troughs.

[C]

And reversed into those lovely grooves. There you go.

[B]

Yeah. And you were in the perfect place. But I mean that shows that there was. There is demand for it. But that was the most amusing one. But, you know, there's far more of that than there was when I first I drove a Tesla, you know, around Australia. I don't know when 20, 18, 19. And there were Tesla superchargers, but that was kind of it. And that's really changed as well. I mean that does seem to have grown a lot.

[C]

I still think the public, the general public who don't own EVs still think it's not there yet because we hear it in the mainstream, in the mainstream press a lot. And it just, it's just this constant rhetoric and it's like. I don't think people who own EVs really complain about that.

[B]

No. Yeah, yeah. I mean that's, that's. Sorry, you go, Tom.

[D]

Oh, I was going to say, I think, I think Tesla Supercharger network is still the most prevalent network in Australia. It's still the most reliable, which is good. And the fact that they can now open it to all EVs. I think more than half the charges now work for all EVs. That's made a huge difference if you don't drive a Tesla to be able to charge on those charges. But I think other networks are also coming. Like today I tried out a new 10 store ampole charger. I know it's ample, it's a fossil fuel company, but still, 10, 10 charges both sides of the motorway. Four pull through stalls. 400 kilowatts.

[B]

Wow.

[D]

So it's coming. I think, I think it is coming.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I think you're right, Sarah. The exact same thing still happens here and I can't, I wish I had the numbers in front of me, but it's like hundreds of thousands of chargers available. I mean many hundreds of thousands in the uk. And I had a comment the other day, I'd love an ev, but the technology just isn't mature enough yet. There aren't enough chargers for ordinary hard working families.

[C]

Just for cities.

[B]

Just for cities. Actually, that one is, I think the most amusing myth. It's so much easier having an electric car out of a city. Yeah.

[C]

Because they really thought about the infrastructure linking them.

[B]

Yeah. Having a, you know, all the, all the people who work on, on everything electric who live in cities, it's much more of a hassle for them to charge a car. It's easy for me, I got no problems. Yeah. So all those things anyway, we don't need to go on about that.

[D]

But if you've got a home charger that's like the gold standard right. In Australia, that's like perfect, that's like perfect case, use case for an ev. And Robert, I've done the road trip from London to Scotland right, in the UK last year and like you got charges everywhere. I don't know what you guys complaining about. Every petrol stop you've got 10 banks of 10, 20 charges. It's phenomenal.

[B]

I mean we now have a, we now have a hub which I went to recently. Thankfully it was almost on my route but I just wanted to go and see it outside Winchester, which has 44 ultra rapid chargers including drive through truck ones. So you can, a truck can charge there or if you're towing a trailer or a caravan, you can charge without unhitching. And it's got, it's got coffee shops, it's got really nice loo.

[C]

That's. You do those services so much better than us. We, we just, we just fail so badly. It's like.

[B]

And I feel, I mean I've been.

[C]

Crying out for that here.

[B]

Yeah, I've been to some. There was a lovely services we stopped at which we weren't charging but there were chargers there and, and it was all modern and very new. And then I came out of a different door than I went into and I wasn't, I was carrying coffee. This is an old man fail. This has got nothing to do with electric cars. And I walked that. I could see my wife in the distance. I was carrying coffee in a bun, balanced up whatever it was. And I didn't see the curb. There was a trip hazard. Bang. I went down, coffee went everywhere and lovely Australians helped me up. And it's. That is so embarrassing when you get helped up.

[C]

Someone help the man up, please help him up.

[D]

We like to help.

[B]

The old man said a fall.

[A]

Could you get him up?

[B]

You don't trip over now you have a fall.

[C]

No, I was going to say, when is that point, Robert, that you have a fall versus a trip?

[B]

I think for me it was about 5.

[D]

It's a long time ago. It becomes an accident. An accident becomes a medical issue, right?

[B]

Yes. You have a medical issue.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Oh, God. It's not fun, but I've got some figures. Increased market share. EVs now account for 12.1% of all new car sales. So that is EVs, that's not plug in hybrids, that is EVs, which is, it's much bigger. It was 9.6 last year. So it is, it is still going up, but. But apparently there's been a bit of plateauing in the last few months. But that doesn't mean the sales have gone down. They just haven't gone up as much.

[D]

I think we had a slow start to 2025. We were sitting around 5, 6%. But I think over the last three or four months we've seen definitely a big uptick. The last figures consistently over 10%. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. 10, 11%. So I think it's looking very promising. Definitely.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it's those new model Y's coming in, really. They just seem to have bumped everything up. But also we're seeing a share of other vehicles really filling that gap as well.

[D]

BYD sea line 7. There's quite a few new ones.

[B]

Yeah. And that was. I mean, I actually interviewed the man from BYD recently and it's the amount of service centers and showrooms is just mind boggling. I mean, I can't remember, but it's a lot. I mean, I remember seeing a couple last time I was there and I was going, oh, there's. Oh, look, there's a BYD showroom. You know, why was I excited about that?

[D]

I think they've done a phenomenal job. Their footprint is growing by the day. Yeah. Their service centers all over Australia. Yeah, exactly. It's no mean feat. They sponsor, they sponsor one of the NRL teams here in Australia and that's. I think a sporting sponsorship is the key to brand recognition in this country for sure.

[B]

Right, yes, that's true. And also as we've discussed briefly, Sarah, the byd shark, which, I mean, so I've got a nephew in law in Australia who drives a ute and he's. He's sort of comically Azaz, as my wife would call him. Oh, mate Z. He's. He's lovely. He's a lovely, sweet, gentle lad. But he's a giant monster. He's big and loud and he's a builder and he's got a ute and he swears at his uncle. And he gave me a hug last time.

[C]

A shark, do you think?

[B]

Well, I think he might do, yes. I'm going to tell him to. I will see him at Christmas, I think. But. But when he gave me a hug last time I saw him, I pretty sure he cracked a rib.

[C]

Oh, I needed that back adjusted.

[D]

Thank you so much.

[B]

It's so funny, but I mean if he. That, that would be this sort of. I can see. I can see the argument with something like that. I know it's a big SUV and a big pickup truck.

[C]

I mean, it is almost as high as my head. That bonnet, it's just huge.

[B]

They're also big.

[D]

Yeah, they're quite.

[C]

I'm just not a fan of big vehicles.

[D]

I mean, Sarah, you're part of Sydney. You wouldn't want to ute too often, would you?

[C]

Those narrow streets, sharks in my neighborhood. And I'm like, really? These are roads designed before the car was even invented. And I'm like, that is bold. That is a bold choice right there, my friend.

[B]

And you're making a.

[C]

Do you spend your entire life worrying where the hell you're going to park it? Because I would be.

[B]

But sure.

[D]

The weeks that I have like a large car, like a ute or a van, I just, I just stress because shopping center car parks in Sydney just got that low clearance, just tight spot. It's just a nightmare.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, it's not. It's slightly off topic, but I mean, it's something I really became aware of last time I was in Australia is exhaust noise legislation. And I just want to know. I want to know if there is any in Australia.

[D]

Oh, I don't think so.

[B]

We lived on quite a steep hill in Britain.

[C]

What do you mean, the louder the better?

[B]

Yeah, the noise. Sometimes I'd be. Well, it's like if I was recording podcasts in there and every now and then. Sorry, we just got to stop for a minute.

[C]

So obnoxious.

[B]

And I was at the back of a house behind a garden in a house. Like not. I wasn't on the road. It was quite it was still definitely loud.

[D]

I think for some people it's their God given right to be able to produce that kind of noise and know everyone else. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And we all have to listen to it.

[B]

But there was a. I think it's changed this year. I don't know if you know anything about. There was legislation about emissions, but there is some emissions legislation in Australia because up until I think this year there were two countries with zero tailpipe emission legislation, which was Russia, no surprise there, and Australia. Yeah, I mean that was, you know.

[C]

What, people are still complaining about it. They still want it gone.

[B]

It's restricting my freedom, you know.

[D]

That's right.

[C]

A lot of pushback against it and I don't even think it even covers certain very large vehicles. Have I got that wrong?

[B]

No, probably not.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. I think some are exempt, Sarah. That's right. I think, I think even the youths, I think I have to check that up. But yeah, it's weird, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Actually I found out the other day and I was so shocked by this. So ancap, which is our version of ncap, the safety standard, I didn't realize that it's not compulsory. I was like, what? So there's vehicles on our roads right now I'm looking at you Ram 1500 and Ford Raptor that have no ANCAP rating. No ANCAP rating. And I'm like, is that because they just know they would, you know, if it is as the hood is as big as my head. Yeah. Maybe it's because it would fail so badly. And even so you see cult vehicles like say a Jimny 3 star ancap, people don't care. They just don't care. But also we have the issue and maybe this, maybe you would agree with this, Robert, in terms of all the cars you review. And you, Tom, are you tired of the bings and bongs?

[B]

Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

And that is the ANCAP thing, isn't it? About that. It's just got to beep at you incessantly. Incessantly. I am just.

[B]

Yeah, it's a difficult one. I mean I got criticized for a review I did the other day a few weeks ago where it. You can turn them off. But I hadn't turned them off because I needed to. It's when you've got a car for two hours.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

I've got time to spend an hour turning off all the bings and bongs. So I was driving along going, this bloody thing's bringing at me.

[D]

And it's just.

[C]

But you should experience what the car is truly like, you know.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[C]

And that's turning it all off and going, that's fine. Especially if you.

[B]

And there's some super subtle bings that I think are really. So there was one in. I can't remember what it was a car where. When you went over this. And I was driving in Spain, so I wasn't used to the speed limits. It was a little bit different. And it went. It sort of went like that. And you go, oh, I've gone over the speed limit by 1km an hour. You know, it was like that. And I went, that's okay. That doesn't annoy me. Then when you. Then when it went. Then when the speed limit changed. So you were in a 40k and it went up to 80k or whatever, something like that. And it would. It would do a slightly.

[D]

It was a slightly different.

[C]

But I noticed in the gear you can turn that off permanently. Because I'm driving the EV3 at the moment and I noticed that you can. And where the speed sign changes. But I just. I just really stress.

[B]

I think it's the phase we're going through because the other one I've just driven, which is the Vauxhall Frontera, which is really an interesting car. So it is. The electric version of the Vauxhall Frontera is cheaper than the hybrid petrol version.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

And they bring that up. They've done that across. So Stellantis, that's their ambition, is that all their electric cars will be the same as or cheaper than the petrol. The petrol petrol, hybrid equivalent.

[C]

I'm so here for that.

[B]

But the other thing is they've done a. They call it a digital detox. So it's, you know, it's very standard looking. It's not an exciting car. It's not fast. It just gets you where you're going. And it's got the screen and it's got sat nav, but it's got really easy Wireless Android Auto CarPlay just comes on. It's just so simple to use. There's one button that I'm glad they did show me because I would have taken me a long time. When you get in the car, you press one button. There's no beeps of any sort. There's lane keeping assistance, there's cruise control.

[C]

All those things I have no problem with if I'm about to be in an impending accident.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

I want my car to alert me. I don't want to be reprimanded for minor infringements in my car. Oh, 1K 1K. No, no, I just don't. I don't want that.

[D]

And some are quite harsh. Like, some will really pull you away from the lane or. Yeah, you feel like someone's actually driving it for you. Like my wife calls it, like, as if there's like kind of romantic dramas where someone's coming behind you to mold the clay pot or something. But it's not romantic at all, just a robot doing it. So. Yeah, exactly. So I don't mind if it's gentle, bit of a nudge, that's fine. Gentle beat. But if it's really rough, I just. I just want to turn it off.

[C]

But 1k over the speed limit is so dumb because if you're sitting, if it's. The speed limit's 60, you're trying to keep the speed around, you know, 59, 60, 61. You know, if it was 5Ks over, that would be more sensible.

[B]

It might be. It might be that. It does. I think, you know, it might be that if you're fanging it, as my wife would say, then, you know, then it does. Bing. I don't know that it comes in at 6, you know, 61. It might be 63.

[D]

Some of them do.

[B]

Yeah. 1k.

[C]

1K.

[D]

Anyway, it must be an end cap NCAP requirement, right? I mind that, but yes, there must be a button you can just a link to your profile where you just go, okay, Tom's here. He doesn't want this and that. He wants the emergency stuff, that's fine.

[B]

But I mean, I think the thing is, if you, if you're buying the car, then you'd spend that. You know, it's when it's that difficulty when you're just driving it for an hour, you know, like effectively a test drive.

[C]

You know, what annoys me is you have to do it every single time. If I spend that much money on a car, I should have the right to turn it off completely.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And you know what? Pedestrian deaths in Australia are rising, Road deaths are rising. Our transport emissions are going up. Primarily it's because our vehicles are getting bigger and bigger and they're buying dirty vehicles, vehicle. So all these things, plus you get reprimanded for looking away from the road at the screen where everything is in the screen. And I'm like, well, and then you have to dig into menus to turn things off or to do things that are essential. It's not actually making our road safer.

[B]

No.

[D]

And Sarah, you make a good point, because who's still ultimately responsible for an accident? You are. I AM Robert is right. It's your car, you're driving it, not the company, not the manufacturer. So we should have the right to be able to fix or turn off whatever we want and let it stay off because we still take responsibility if something happens.

[B]

Yes. No, I mean, that's. Yeah. And that goes into the whole debate around autonomous vehicles, which I don't want to get into. But, yes. I just want to quickly mention my beloved MG4, which I've had for a few years, which is everything about that car I really like. It's really comfortable, it's got amazing range, it's like unbelievably cheap in comparison with, like, the first generation of electric cars. You just couldn't imagine, like, in 2010, there'll never be anything like the MG4. But there is. But the lane keeping assistant is suicidal.

[C]

It's a bit Yankee, isn't it?

[B]

Insane.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Oh, my God. I've been very close to serious accidents with that thing and you have to turn it off every time you get in and it's about a three button down in the menu item and that is just once that's off, I can love it again. But when I get in that car, if I forget to turn that wretched thing off, it is really shocking.

[C]

Apparently when I reversed and there was someone coming down the road, but I wasn't near it, it slammed on the brakes.

[B]

Yeah. What, the MG4.

[D]

That.

[B]

Yeah, it's very sensitive.

[D]

But actually we just bought the MGS5, the up the. So the MG4's newer brother. We just got the MGS5 as our second car and you can now, with the MG software, flick down a shortcut and then just press MG Pilot. Pilot and you can actually select the ones you want and it's. It's a one or two button flick, you're done. So.

[B]

But then it doesn't come back on.

[D]

That doesn't come back for that drive. Yeah. So it's a much better experience. So. Sorry.

[C]

But it is literally swipe, down, boom, swipe, push. So that's.

[D]

That's good.

[B]

Yeah, I don't mind that.

[D]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

No, I wouldn't mind that at all. No. And I think it's a fantastic. I just love the car, you know, that's the thing, when I've done long drives in it and it's set, it's. It's brilliant.

[C]

It's drives so well, that car.

[B]

For the, for the cost of it, I. I do take a cushion with me that I've stolen off the sofa. Because my, my leg, my left leg rests against the sort of center console bit and it's like really sharp.

[C]

It's hard plastic.

[D]

Put a hard plastic.

[B]

It's a very hard plastic thing in the way of an old man's knee. So I need a little bit of padding, but a little bit of cushioning there.

[C]

That's what you need.

[B]

I need a little cushion.

[D]

Did that cause the fall of the. In the service station? No, that was in Australia, wasn't it? That's a different issue. Can't blame MG for that.

[B]

Although we did. We did. We were given an MG for the really crazy fast one.

[D]

X Power.

[B]

X Power.

[C]

You just have to look at that thing in your speeding.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Hunter Green.

[B]

That was when we were in Albury and there were some friends of Judy's that had never been in an electric car before. Before at all.

[C]

Did you terrify them?

[B]

Well, I just gave them a lift in it and I said. And they said, oh, do they. Does this go fast? Is this. Don't. We don't need to do it. It's fine. We're just going up the road. Oh, go, go, go. They were sitting in the back. That scream could be heard in the other side of Wodonga, you know.

[C]

Was this before or after lunch?

[B]

Yeah, but they're still talking about. Oh, my God, that car was crazy.

[D]

That's a decent fang.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that was. It was stupid.

[C]

Totally fanged.

[B]

Love it. Yeah, yeah, that was a proper fang. Yeah, I found it. Yeah. I had a thought before that. Darkness. Oh, well, I mean, yeah, let's. Let's talk plug in hybrids because. Yeah, but I mean, the thing is, whatever you, Whatever our opinions about it is the two things that work. The one thing that works is the marketing. This is an electric car that you don't need to worry about ranging.

[C]

They do. Like, that's the sale or EV all over them, don't they, to try.

[D]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Like an electric car, which I personally.

[B]

I mean, clearly the sales of those have been that. That's. Oh, my God. The first six months of 2025. This is the figures from this report. It's. It's seen more than a tripling. It's 218 growth from the same period last year. So clearly of hybrids. It's working. The marketing is working.

[C]

Do you think all three of us were in China at the same time back in April? Are you frustrated? Because I feel frustrated that I have seen the future in China. China is the future I have seen. I've had a glimpse of what the future looks and sounds and smells like. But it's frustrating that there's all these amazing, especially Chinese electric cars but now they're having to meet where we are, not where they are. I just wish that we could just embrace because I feel like with all these resources that are going to go into buying these plug in hybrids or hybrids and then people are going to realize anyway, oh, I could have just bought an electric car. And then you've locked in that fuel consumption for all those years and then those cars are going to be on our roads for all those years. I just feel really frustrated that we haven't, that we just haven't made that full step or that some people think not quite there yet. I'm not quite sure but I feel like there's a lot of narrative pushing that fear still. Would you agree with that?

[D]

Yeah, I think in Australia for sure. Like, you know, we have this perception that we're still a very big country that we need to do two laps of the continent every second day and that's where the hybrid comes in handy with the extended range.

[C]

But in reality towing a cattle every week.

[D]

Yeah. At full pelt fanging it, we just, we just, we just need average Aussie drives. 50 to 100k is not even that. 50ks a day, that's ridiculous.

[C]

36 and 42, it's even less.

[D]

Exactly.

[B]

And that is universal. That is absolutely universal around the world. In America that's the average mileage. In the uk it's probably even less any European country.

[C]

That is how far playing upon the fears of. But what if I want to, you know, drive across the Nullarbor or drive to Perth or whatever and it's just.

[D]

And it's a very, very western concept because. Because now the Chinese brands are going global. Every single one of them going global has to create a plugin line. You know, everyone's doing it. Xpeng, Zika, byd, you name it. They are creating a plug in line because they know that's what the market wants in America, in Australia and Europe and Britain, which is sad. The question is, is it, is it a transition plugins or is it part of our future? That I'm still not sure. Hopefully not. Hopefully just a transitional period.

[C]

I think it'll be a transition.

[B]

You're right. I mean it would be lovely to think, well after my time on the planet that there would be some old plug in hybrid cars that people polish and look after because they're classics but everyone drives electric. I mean that's what, you know, that would be the best outcome from this. But I got a feeling they might. I mean, I think we. I think my motto is over is never under mass underestimate the tenacity and sheer bloody determination of the oil industry to keep the claws in and to not, not give. And so they've had to give in a bit. And I think we've seen a ramping up of that simply because of what we all saw in the thing that struck me first, and in fact the most in Shanghai, was the scooters, because that market in Southeast Asia is giant and it's Now. It's around 400 million electric scooters on the roads in Southeast Asia and China. 400 million electric scooters using petrol will use quite a lot of it in a few sense. One uses very little, but 400 million use a lot. There has been a 1% decrease registered in fossil fuel use globally in the last 18 months. It's a report I read earlier this year. So it's gone down by 1%. It's not due to a pandemic or war or any economic. It's down to lack of sales. And that will freak them out because that's a sign of things to come.

[C]

I do wonder why in Australia we haven't. I've literally just written an article on this for the Driven. And I do wonder why we haven't embraced electric scooters and electric motorcycles as much as, say, China. I mean, you do have those fantastic separated lanes.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So it's very, very safe to ride there. But I wonder if it's E bikes have sort of eaten into those sales because. And then maybe there's no insurance costs, there's no registration costs, you get a bit of, you know, illegally modified electric bicycles that go stupidly fast and you've got a bit of that going on. But yeah, I do wonder why we've kind of missed that trick as maybe a second vehicle or maybe your only vehicle. I rode around the scooter for years and I didn't own a car. That was my only way of getting around.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it's just this opportunity that we're just sort of missing completely now.

[B]

I think you're right. I mean, that is very. I've not even thought of that before. That is very similar in this country that there are. In, like, in London, there's thousands of electric pedal assist electric bikes. That's really, really common. There are some. I've seen them. There are a few electric scooters, you know, like what I would think of a scooter like a traditional, like a Lambretto style scooter. But they're electric. But there's. They're very few, very, very few electric motorbikes. There's still thousands of combustion engine motorbikes and scooters. You know that is still a common thing in London. Generally speaking, the number the percentage of electric vehicles in central London now is mind boggling. I mean it's really, really. The buses are all electric, the taxis are all electric. The car. The huge majority of the cars you see on the road are electric in, in the center of London. I mean there's a lot of monetary restrictions of driving in central London. So when you see for instance the, the Mercedes G wagon in Mayfair which is in the super ultra congestion zone, you have to pay a fortune to. They're happy they're still driving it.

[C]

They have no problem paying.

[B]

That is someone who is literally doing that to pedestrians and the rest of.

[C]

And actually you had so much pushback when you wanted to expand the U let's. Didn't you? It was yeah, yeah. Ridiculous again that 15 minute cities anti ridiculous what we call cooker movement of people who are conspiracy theorists and all that sort of thing. But yeah, I just think just, just.

[D]

Missing it back on the small car thing. I think you know, living in the suburbs of Sydney like I think we've kind of answered our own questions. We, we, we drive big utes in Australia. We drive big SUVs. Half our market is those kind of cars. So I suppose in suburbs like the outer suburbs of our big cities, we just. People don't feel safe driving a small car. People don't feel safe driving riding a scooter or a motorbike because you're gonna be up against a big ute next door. Yeah, the Rams, the F150s you know we talked about earlier. So I can kind of see why unfortunately.

[C]

And if that's a race to the bottom right. That's a race to the bottom of who can drive the biggest vehicle. And then we're all driving big vehicles and it's still gonna.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

And people ride SUVs because they, they can't see with a sedan like, because of the. It's like a.

[C]

Then everyone's on the same level.

[D]

That's a towering effect.

[B]

I think there's always been a lovely painful, you know, the contact point between technology and human psychology. It's always been. There's been a lot of friction there. There's always been a lot of just really bizarre behavior but that you're Right. I think it's more extreme in Australia and obviously North America in particular, where that, you know, where size is everything and it's, it's less common here. But as I was saying to Sarah earlier, It's the, of SUVs here that it's the big luxury SUVs. It's people who are prepared to, to pay for and go through the awkwardness and the hassle of driving something like a big Range Rover in the center of a city. You go, why would you do that? It's really stressful, you know, you can see, oh my God, you can see how close you are to everything else and it's terrifying. And yet.

[C]

And you can't park it. You'll just spend all your time stressing about. I'm gonna, I'm regularly going to a car park at the moment and it was clearly built for a different time and cars of a different. The scrapes going up these very narrow ramps and then these cars are so big they're sticking right out and you can't get the swing to go up the narrow ramp because these vehicles are so big. And I'm like, surely, where is it going to end? Where is it going to end? Because I don't really have a car.

[D]

We don't have a significant congestion tax. We don't really have a significant polluting tax for cars. You know, you're free to buy whatever car you want in this country without too much reprimand. Right. So, you know, I think that won't be taken away from us anytime soon. People will be up in arms if a political party said, no, we have to tax the political vehicles.

[B]

I mean, yeah, it's sad. You're not, I think you're not gonna, you're not gonna win a lot of votes if you say we're gonna smash the ute market.

[D]

Yeah, quite the opposite. We've got the EV tax coming potentially.

[B]

Right.

[D]

The federal EV road tax, that's quite the opposite.

[C]

Meanwhile, in New South Wales alone, the health costs or from air pollution are 4 point something billion dollars a year. Just New South Wales, we spend billions upon billions of dollars in health issues related to air pollution. But tax the EVs, go ahead. Yeah, knock yourself out. That's the problem.

[B]

I mean, it was. I'd forgotten, as you reminded me, that Sarah, that I, I did notice last time I was in Sydney, so I'd been in London for a few weeks before I went to Sydney and London, you know, the traditional notion, it was called the smoke. That's what you were Going up the smoke meant you were going into London. It was filthy. When I was a kid, it was unimaginable. All the buildings were black. I just thought that's what buildings were like, they were black. So St Pancras Station, which is red brick, was black. Wow. It's now red brick. It looks amazing. You know, they've cleaned it up. But the air quality in London has, you know, by literal statistics and research and monitoring has improved really noticeably. And really the last five years, I think it's really made a difference. And I think, interestingly, one of the things that really spurred it was Covid. So during COVID when there was no traffic in London and I really wish I'd been there, I wasn't in London when that happened. But there's a friend of mine, filmed his walk from Belgravia to Hampstead, which is a long way. But the middle bit is just freakish. I mean, he was walking through Regent Street, Oxford Street. There was an ambulance went past, two other people walking with masks on. There was no one there, there was no traffic and the air was like. And he said, listen to this. And he was on Oxford Circus and you could hear birdsong and you. That's the thing is never heard that. He'd lived in London all his life. He'd never heard that sound. Just from where BBC Broadcasting House was, you know, the old BBC. But that stayed with people in London. People were commenting, oh, my God, it smells like when I go to the country, you know, and that. That has lowered, you know, the. The general air pollution. And then I get. I get out, walk out of a house in. In Sydney and go, well, a bit stinky. I really noticed it. And I went, that is. And I was. I was in Coogee. So I wasn't in the middle of no Sydney. I was near the sea, you know, and that was like, my God, that is shocking.

[C]

And I haven't. And I remember you saying that at the Sydney show and dance at it as well. And I've not been able to forget that. And then when we went to China, remember, we could hear the birds everywhere. We could hear the birds Shanghai.

[D]

The air so clean. It was. It was amazing everywhere you go. Yeah, they really cleaned up with the evs. And. And the air quality has been really good, actually.

[C]

And I want that. I want that for us.

[D]

Me too.

[C]

I think we deserve that. There's no reason why we should be standing next to filthy, noisy diesel buses and truck. Huge filthy trucks and dirt like that. And that's my issue with those really big utes and big vehicles because yeah, they're filthy. They are.

[B]

So yeah, they have big engines.

[D]

I think the first step has to be electrification of buses. Every time I see an electric bus in Sydney I'm so happy because I don't hear it, it just silently glides past me. And some of the school buses are now electric so I mean gotta look after our kids first and foremost. Yeah, I've got school age kids still so I'm happy to see that. I think. Yeah, I think that's got to be the first step. Electric buses make a lot of sense.

[B]

Now the buses in London is now two and a half thousand red double decker buses. I think 80% of the population London don't even know know that they're electric. They look like the other red double decker buses, you know, and there's two and a half thousand of them and it's. The thing I desperately want to do is to go to the depot. We, I mean we are in contact with them. We will do it one day to see how you charge two and a half thousand buses at night, you know, because that's quite a big chunk. Yes, but of course, where are those buses from? They're all byd, they're all Chinese. Not all of them. There is one or two that are other manufacturers but. But yeah, the vast majority are. That was a.

[C]

We are electrifying them slowly here. But it is very slow.

[B]

I mean it makes. The thing is that I think that will happen simply because it makes economic sense, you know, that local governments will work out. Well, how much do we pay for diesel for 500 buses or a thousand buses? And it's a lot. And then how much would we pay if we would. If we had a solar canopy over the bus depot which is what they've done in South London and you know, you produce some of your own, you know, the running costs are dramatically reduced and once you see that then it doesn't matter about that. They won't even worry about air quality, they worry about the bottom line.

[D]

You know, we'll stick a battery by the solar charging night with the battery. It makes sense to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Sorry Robert, are your viewers aware of the Australian cheaper home batteries subsidy and the massive test this has been?

[B]

We are now please explain about over.

[C]

A hundred thousand home battery installs in Australian households since the 1st of July.

[B]

That is incredible.

[C]

And that is the 1st of July. Oh my God.

[D]

It's crazy.

[C]

Apparently every.

[D]

Every nine days. Every nine days a South Australian sized Horndale battery is installed in Australia. Just by the rebate alone, I think that's a phenomenal uptake.

[C]

Gigawatts, gigawatt hours, you know, that we've installed thus far. It is absolutely a rip roaring success. And I know it's a rip roaring success because I did a post on it a couple of days ago and it got smashed by bots and trolls and it was a coordinated effort. At the same time there are a lot of the politicians who are against renewables. We're seeing a lot of that here. All came out coordinated at the same time on the day that was announced to try and sort of flood the zone with anti renewable information to try and drown that message out. Because that is fantastic. Good news.

[B]

Incredible news. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I think we only heard 19,000 last week. It was like, where are we going to be? Okay, let's lay bets by the end of the year. What do you reckon? Last day of the year, what do you reckon we'll get to?

[B]

Is it still going, still happening?

[C]

Gangbusters. So what do you reckon?

[D]

It's about a 30% discount on installation costs. Costs at the moment. This first year it'll just. It'll decrease every year but at the moment it's as good as it'll get. 30 off your, your cost.

[B]

Right.

[D]

Or installation.

[C]

I'm laying a prediction we'll hit 200000 by the last day of the year. This is what I'm putting my hand up for. I'm just guessing.

[B]

I think it's worth. Just because you mentioned it, Tom, it's worth mentioning that the Horndale. Is it Horndale or Horns?

[D]

I think it's Horndale. I think.

[B]

I think the horned out battery was like the first, the biggest battery in the world, wasn't it when it was installed? It was installed by Tesla, Was it Got a lot of PR because of what he said about it.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Hornsdale.

[B]

No Horns.

[D]

Hornsdale. Sorry. It is Hornsdale. My mistake.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But we've got the Waratah super battery now, which is. Yes, Ginormous, which is still powering up as we speak. That's going to be huge.

[B]

But the fact that those batteries have outstripped what was for a while the biggest battery in the world in such a short time. I mean that is a. It is a really extraordinary thing and I think it's far more important in a way to have that distributed power storage all over a city. It will make a huge difference. And I think a lot of them, aren't they installed with the ability to deliver power to the grid?

[C]

Yeah. Virtual power plants. Yeah, yeah. And you know, I think you're with Amber as well, aren't you Tom? So we're wholesale market, so we're both trading energy and I think I like talking about that on my socials because I think it's important that people go, oh you can make money which means you pay off that battery much quicker but you're supporting the grid at peak, peak time which hopefully eventually that will bring down those prices for everyone else who doesn't have battery or solar. So it's. But the demand, pent up demand has been amazing. Obviously we have a huge uptake of solar in Australia anyway. I think it was a third of the country had solar or house, you know, residential households. One of the biggest uptake in the world I think.

[D]

And so I think I read 4 out of 10.

[B]

Yeah, that is extraordinary. No, I mean it's the highest penetration of solar, rooftop solar in the world.

[A]

Well, that was a really lovely conversation, really hope you enjoyed that. Tom, as he mentioned, is going to be appearing at the Everything Electric show in Melbourne. Sarah sadly can't be there but she'll be at the Sydney show in March next year and the show as Sarah remembered, is the 14th, 15th and 16th of of November in Melbourne and it's going to be a very wonderful event. I really hope you can come if you're in the area but even if you're not in Australia, I hope you enjoyed that conversation. It's fascinating what is going on there. The home battery thing is extraordinary. Really worth keeping up with Everything Electric Tech because we cover all those stories and many more. So please do subscribe, please do tell your friends about it and as always, if you have been, thank you for watching.