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The End of The Beginning For Fully Charged As Fight for Cleaner Technologies Gets Dirty...
01:03:56
It’s been 15 years since Fully Charged first launched — and a lot has changed. In this special episode, Robert Llewellyn, Dan Caesar, and Imogen Bhogal gather in Robert’s kitchen to reflect on the journey from a YouTube side hustle to a...
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- [00:14]
Imogen
Hello and welcome to this rather unusual episode of the podcast. We're here in Robert's kitchen. I'm joined by Robert and Dan and we're going to delve into a bit of the history of Fully Charged show and keep one eye on the future. Very mysterious. So how are you both this morning?
- [00:34]
Robert
Very well, thank you.
- [00:35]
Dan
Good, yeah. 15 years of the Fully Charged Show.
- [00:37]
Robert
15 years. We just passed the 15th birthday.
- [00:40]
Dan
Makes me feel young.
- [00:41]
Robert
Yeah. Makes me feel that I've been doing it for 15 years. But it's, it is intriguing because of. It's a really good way of mapping what's changed, you know, that in that 15 year period. Because, I mean, must have been the time when it was 10 years old. I can't really remember that. Five years ago.
- [00:58]
Dan
Yeah, well, that was during the pandemic.
- [01:00]
Robert
During the pandemic.
- [01:00]
Dan
It probably didn't celebrate that from our men.
- [01:02]
Robert
No, that's right, yeah. So 15 years, it's kind of. But I mean, yes, when you think of, you know, if you compare. Well, the one that really struck me when we saw the BYD Dolphin Surf was the comparison between the Mitsubishi ime, which I still think is a genius little car, and they're similar size, but when you think of the technology in those two cars, it is literally worlds apart, you know, really. And then the price, because I think the Mitsubishi. I me, if you wanted to buy one, 38,000 pounds, 40,000 pounds, it was somewhere in that region and it would, if you were really careful on a day like today, and you had a lot of downhill and a bit of a following wind, you could maybe get 80 miles a bit and a bit of a push.
- [01:43]
Imogen
Well, I think. But that's the thing, because 15 years ago. So the year is 20, 25, 15. Anyone is listening to this in the future and 2010, I mean, no, we wouldn't have thought that technology was comparatively primitive at that time. But you look back at some of those early episodes and it is astonishing, the change. Now let's rewind because this is something that you and I have spoken about many times in the car on the way to various shoots. But I'm sure there's many people out there who are intrigued. Take us back 15 years ago.
- [02:11]
Robert
All right.
- [02:12]
Imogen
Why on earth did you start the channel?
- [02:15]
Robert
I mean, I've had to sort of think about it this year. I think there are two reasons. There literally are two reasons. So for the 10 years previous to that, so from 2000 to 2010, five, six years of that, I spent quite a lot of time In California, making Junkyard wars, the American version of scrapeap Challenge. We also made scrap eap. I'd forgotten about that because I had to talk about scrap eap. The other day we did a series of scrape where we flew all the team, the British teams to California and they made things there and they all burnt themselves on metal because they didn't know that if the car's been out in the sun and you lean on it, I learned it's like putting your hand on a night when you're ironing. Is this iron on? Yes, it's that hot. Anyway, so we did that and then we did Junkyard wars, which was for Discovery Channels of American. Exactly the same show, identical show and with other presenters. But I would do guest presenting on certain things they did. And in that time I now can see, and I didn't. It wasn't conscious that I met these engineers and people who were like consulting with us or coming in to do one of the shows were working on battery management systems, battery packaging, electric drivetrains. And I sort of came across these different people. And actually one of the. And I'm going to get his name wrong, so I'm not going to say it because a man who was very. A British guy, engineer, very involved in the very early formation of Tesla, came to the show in an electric car that was phenomenally fast, like a little sports car thing. So it was in the background, but I mean, I wasn't interested in it, but it kind of clicked a button and it was that. And also we got a visit from these three lovely young Californians who worked for this thing called carb. And I'd never heard of it, but all the Americans go, oh my God, they're from carb. Oh my God, that's awesome. They were really into it. And CARB was Californian Air Resource Board, which was the government funded organization that said when you drive a million pickup trucks past a primary school, the IQ goes down and the children are iller and they don't develop as fast and they're smaller and they've got breathing problems and they've all got asthma. And the kids that are in the mountains where there's clean air are fine and it's nothing to. And it was also nothing to do with economics or racial mix. They really managed to prove that it's because they're breathing poisonous air. And so that was the start of cleaning up the air of catalytic converters, of unleaded petrol. All those things came out of California. And when I kind of learned that Backwards. And I went, now I think that the Prius, first time I ever came across a Prius, was there. And then it's got to be said, the, the episode of Top Gear where Jeremy Clarkson drove the Tesla Roadster and they said it ran out of batteries and it hadn't. Which is, you know, but equal to that. The other man with the, with the hair and the flowery shirts.
- [05:10]
Imogen
Oh, James.
- [05:11]
Robert
James May drove the Honda Clarity hydrogen fuel cell car and said, our battery cars are never going to work. This is the future. And by then, because I'd spoken to so many engineers who worked in that region, I understood what. And I'd been in a hydrogen fuel cell car in America and I went, this isn't going to work. This is a fantasy. This is never going to work without really having an argument about it. So I just went, they're bloody wrong. Both of them are wrong. And they get huge attention and huge influence and massive impact on that industry. And I went, I want to do something that counters that gently and suggests that petrol cars aren't perfect and we're not going to use hydrogen fuel cell cars. And battery electric might be the answer, but, I mean, no one knew. In 2010, our three free YouTube channels on EVs and cleantech are funded by our fun packed Test Drive T events in Farnborough, London, the Southwest, the North, Melbourne and Sydney. And next up, we're in Canada for everything Electric, Vancouver and new for UK viewers. You can now buy a battery EV and much more at everythingelectric store. Now back to the episode.
- [06:19]
Imogen
Okay, so fast forwarding to when you met this lovely gentleman here, Daniel Caesar, CEO of Fully Child Show. Well, how did that happen? How did you guys meet?
- [06:29]
Robert
Well, can you remember the year that, that I did that? Was it 20?
- [06:33]
Dan
20? 16?
- [06:34]
Robert
2016, was it?
- [06:35]
Dan
Okay, I remember it because it was immediately after the Brexit vote had taken place.
- [06:42]
Robert
That's right, it was very soon after. So it was very raw.
- [06:45]
Dan
In London.
- [06:46]
Robert
Yeah.
- [06:46]
Dan
At the Science Museum.
- [06:48]
Robert
Yes.
- [06:48]
Dan
Where I was hosting an event and I asked Robert to compare the event. Which you very kindly did.
- [06:55]
Robert
It was a good event. It was really good.
- [06:57]
Dan
And I'd actually, you know, talk about, you know, your background in oil, both of you. Not really.
- [07:02]
Robert
Yeah.
- [07:03]
Dan
I'd come out of sort of the gas industry as a kind of a director of communications. Very grand. But in that industry. And I very quickly sort of fell in love with the notion of heat pumps, as everyone knows, and solar and batteries and things like that. And I'd spent a lot of Time, sort of promoting renewables and lots of time in industry meetings where we were all trying to convince each other that electric cars are the future, batteries of the future, solar was the future, etc. Etc. And I felt very, very strongly that we were all in a little bit of a bubble, talking to each other. And actually, at some point, someone's got to cross the Rubicon and talk to end users. I don't call them consumers anymore. That would be.
- [07:44]
Robert
No, I've always hated the term consumer as well.
- [07:47]
Dan
People, People, end users. I prefer that because I think that's. I think that's where we're heading with AI end users. And so I, I'd sort of realize, been made aware of the fully charged show and I watched it and I thought, you know, this guy has got it. He understands the topic, but he's able. Right. But he's able to communicate it at a level which makes it understandable and interesting. And so that's when we met. And I think that at that point, is it fair to say that, you know, you were struggling to make it work financially?
- [08:20]
Robert
Oh, it was a nightmare. Yeah.
- [08:22]
Imogen
And I think that is so that people are like, oh, wow, YouTube is so glitzy. It's so glamorous. You must be loaded. And you think, oh my God, if you could only see.
- [08:31]
Robert
Because I remembered that the two. So there were two times, period, short periods of time before I met you, where it was sponsored by. First by ecotricity.
- [08:41]
Imogen
Oh, yeah.
- [08:42]
Robert
No, first by British Gas.
- [08:45]
Dan
No.
- [08:45]
Robert
Yeah, for eight episodes by British Gas. And the people I worked with at British Gas were amazing. So they were installing solar car chargers. They were for their customers. And that's why they, they, I got. But then I had to do smart British Gas smart meters. And I don't. And I have huge respect for the people who work at British Gas, but their smart meters were as dumb as a box of spanners. I mean, they weren't smart. They were the most annoying thing. So I had to promote something that I really didn't feel. We had one here and it was hopeless. It was kind of 1990s tech in a box.
- [09:20]
Dan
It was awful.
- [09:21]
Robert
It was awful. So that. It was so painful. And that was the only time where we actually had a budget. And that's when I went to Dubai. We did a very successful show about the sustainable city. Well, that was because we had enough money to fly to Dubai with a camera operator and do it and make it. And you know, and then I knew that wasn't going to work. And then we got Ecotricity. So Dale Vince from Ecotricity, very keen supporter of what I was trying to do. You know, very, very limited, very small support, but really generous of them to do it. And so I did all my weird Ecotricity opening title sequences, hand drawn, cut together. I mean, boy, you know, talk about cottage industry. So that would all have happened before I met you, I think, and it was unsustainable. So the only way it was keeping going was because I had other work, thankfully, that I would then be able to do another two episodes. So it wasn't every week. It was probably maybe twice a month we'd put out something or whenever something was launched, like when the Leaf came out, obviously I could do an episode about the Leaf and the Renault Zoe. So there were, you know, I'd finished off.
- [10:29]
Dan
Well, I finished off working on something called the Renewables Roadshow, and I also was doing a renewable heat incentive roadshow for the Department of Engine Climate Change, shortly axed after Brexit. And so I'd come off the back of doing lots of different events to promote these to technologies. And I was sick of events. I'd done so many around the country. And when we first met, we were thinking, how can we kind of, you know, turn this into business, enable it to grow? And I kind of avoided events as a possibility. But as it. As it happens, that was the kind of the path we took and the right one. And it's really interesting, I think, because there's been a huge cast of hundreds, if not thousands of people that have made the Fully Charged. I'd certainly name check Dale Vince at Electricity. Yeah, not only did he support you then, but also he was one of the first sponsors of Fully Charged Live. Yeah, we announced that back in 2017. The other first sort of mover was a chap called David Martell, who led Chargemaster and then became BP Charge Master, became BP Pulse. So he was kind of very involved. Also, we worked internally. We had another great presenter, Johnny Smith, Great, you know, fantastic, great creative camera operator. It's difficult to describe him in full. Mark Taylor. Hank Taylor.
- [11:50]
Robert
Hankins.
- [11:51]
Dan
And there are many, many people over the years, far too many to kind of name check in this, but that sort of formative stage, we said, well, how can we make this into something? And I think what was really, really interesting about the technologies we covered is that is they were so new and they still remain new, that people wanted to come and see them in situ. And so actually, it played really, really well into. Into the events because you actually could have Test drives for EVs and maybe, you know, test rides of different micro mobility, you know, options. And also you come and look at heat pumps and solar and you actually talk to people. And quite often the companies that were exhibiting those will bring in their experts, with no disrespect equally to dealerships. For example, if you go into dealership, it can be a mixed bag. I noticed Kia were one of the best sort of dealership, you know, for EVs recently. They were kind of really, really good at that. But it is a mixed bag when you talk about EVs.
- [12:43]
Robert
We've definitely heard some slightly less than perfect stories about people, but people come.
- [12:48]
Dan
To our show, they're getting the guru. So actually, us doing events was a kind of a big, big step forward. And it was at the Electric Vehicle Experience center in Milton Keynes, in.
- [12:59]
Robert
That's where we.
- [13:00]
Dan
December 2017, where we announced the idea. And then we did our first show at Silverstone. And our next show in Vancouver is our 20th show around the world. So it has been, you know, a successful formula for us.
- [13:14]
Robert
But still that, that first one is still the, you know, kind of a proper, like, pivoting moment when we were waiting for everyone to come in and you said, can you come down the front and welcome everyone? And we all stood there and that was Johnny and Maddie Mote. I think I can't remember all the people there.
- [13:30]
Dan
Helen was there as well.
- [13:32]
Robert
Helen was there, yeah. And we. And. And I think you. Because that's when I think, because I'd said, look, this is a night. I got more and more anxious about it. I thought, no one's got. It's in bloody Silverstone. So difficult to get to. Who's going to come to this? This is ridiculous. And I think, because the day before, I remember pushing huge trolleys with like, IKEA furniture that we had to build to put merchandise. Just like, what are we doing? This is insane. Everyone working so hard. And I just think we're going to be standing here with five people and Jack Russell coming in, you know, and a man who wants to moan about the charging infrastructure. And then I think there was about 5,000 people waiting to get in that morning about you leant over my shoulder and you said, we'll be okay.
- [14:15]
Dan
Well, I'd run events where we didn't. We didn't have a star name, we didn't have an audience. And I built the audience from scratch. So I was fairly confident that given Robert's star power and having that audience, we would be able to do well right from the beginning, but they have been tremendously successful and love to kind of, you know, talk a bit more about what we've got coming up from that perspective. So one of the best things about the events, I think, is it enabled us to chart our own course. We didn't have to do sponsored content or commercial content. We were able to, to, you know, avoid that. And it's not like we've. We've never done sponsored content. We do it occasionally, but it is very, very occasionally. And within your YouTube rules, you actually have to say, yes, that it is sponsored and we do that. We know other YouTubers who, who don't do that. But if we've got something sponsored, you'll see in the top portion of the screen, actually, this is, you know, this.
- [15:07]
Robert
Is paid for content.
- [15:08]
Dan
Paid for. Paid for content. But we have largely managed to avoid doing that. And I think I wanted to say that because actually Robert recently reviewed a car and it did. Another YouTuber didn't mention us by name, for example, but basically said that actually this is paid for content. And quite a lot of comments underneath that video then jumped to the conclusion that we'd been paid for that content, which we hadn't. So that was a recent launch that you went to. You were there as well, Imogen.
- [15:38]
Robert
Yeah.
- [15:38]
Imogen
So actually, just. Just on that, Robert is driving and I am sat in the passenger seat like this, so that I'm out of.
- [15:44]
Robert
Shot, but also feeding me vitally important information. I think you weren't just sitting there for fun. So when you hear me confidently talk about the car, it's because Imogen just told me, and I've got a memory of a goldfish. I can remember quite a lot of data for four or five seconds.
- [15:58]
Dan
I thought you were very sharp in that video.
- [16:00]
Imogen
Now that explains why driving in London, that is stressful.
- [16:03]
Robert
It is quite stressful.
- [16:04]
Imogen
Remember, if you're saying 160 kilowatts or 160, it helps when you've got something.
- [16:09]
Robert
Oh, God, it makes such a difference.
- [16:11]
Dan
So that was the launch of the BYD Dolphin Surf Alexandra Palace. And, you know, though, certainly from our point of view, it's quite interesting to see insinuations like that online. And unfortunately, those online rumors suddenly become, you know, perception becomes reality. The honest truth is that car companies have forever basically said, do you want to come and film things? Yeah, it's no different with. With a byd. But we were not paid to be there. We felt it was an important car, one of the most important cars ever, because it's actually serving that kind of more affordable end of the market.
- [16:47]
Imogen
Yeah.
- [16:48]
Dan
And also, we aren't paid what to say. We, we say it as we find it. But actually, unfortunately, another YouTuber had said basically that he had been sent a contract.
- [16:57]
Robert
Yeah.
- [16:58]
Dan
And that he was only able to go if he was speak about the BYD in positive terms. And categorically we have never done that. We would never do that. And I actually would dispute whether he was telling the truth.
- [17:12]
Robert
It's very questionable. Yeah.
- [17:14]
Dan
So I won't mention him by name because I can't remember his name. But, you know, the reality is, the reality is with, with online information, be very, very cautious about what you do or don't believe.
- [17:24]
Imogen
But I think the positive I would take from that is that if people are absorbing content or consuming content. Consuming content.
- [17:33]
Robert
Consuming videos. If a person is watching a video.
- [17:36]
Imogen
If a human being, if an end.
- [17:38]
Dan
User is end user is consuming content.
- [17:41]
Imogen
And they're asking that question, is this sponsored? I think in today's day and age, it is very important that people are scrutinizing what they're watching.
- [17:48]
Robert
Yeah, yeah.
- [17:48]
Imogen
But we do find it funny because of how we're funded and because of the events, we can be more authentic, we can say what we want. Oftentimes we are positive because we've actively chosen the things we feel positive about and we say many no's to many, many things. But the other thing that is kind of funny in all of this, and I wish people could get this insight that car companies often, you know, they put on these quite luxurious events, they'll put people up in hotels and it's not paid for. But I think, you know, in the spirit of transparency, they make it very easy.
- [18:20]
Robert
We couldn't make the show without them doing that because you wouldn't go to wherever it is. Yeah.
- [18:24]
Imogen
But when we cover the stuff that isn't cars, it's much, much more bootstrapped. And often we'll have conversations with people and they'll say, you know, how does this sort of work? And I say it's editorial. We always welcome a sandwich. And they'll be like, I think we can stretch to a sandwich. But just, just coming back to the events as well, because I feel very smart that I was there at the 2018 event. But as a panelist.
- [18:48]
Dan
Yes.
- [18:49]
Imogen
And Andy, who is behind the camera, you were there. One of the sort of fully charged og. So I think it's nice that we've kind of all have that.
- [18:57]
Dan
And isn't it interesting that we actually Spoke about. I think we, I met you there and we'd seen you in a, in a. I think it was an in house Jaguar Land Rover.
- [19:08]
Robert
Yeah.
- [19:08]
Dan
Video. And we had both said, I wonder if Imogen might. In presenting in the fullness of time. And you went on a slightly different journey and we ended up making that, making that happen in the fullness of time.
- [19:19]
Imogen
The stars aligned. Very grateful. I mean those events though I think for anyone who hasn't been to one, they are weird and I find it so funny that you. I will caveat that statement. I find it hilarious that you're like, no, I don't want to do events. And fast forward now, we've done two.
- [19:35]
Robert
I'm so sick of events.
- [19:37]
Imogen
But what is extraordinary about them is that they're very hard to describe because they are simultaneously for any Joe Public on the street, but also industry. And you have this mishmashing of worlds of people who are deeply interested in this technology, forming the next frontier of it, or just want to find out more and actually can get their hands on stuff, get in a car, talk to a heat pump expert and actually have all the information in one place. And also for people who've been sort of banging this drum, they get that sense of being part of this.
- [20:07]
Robert
Yes, there's something actually happening.
- [20:09]
Imogen
Everything that show community, I mean, it's.
- [20:11]
Dan
Been really important for us because we try to avoid YouTube comments, for example. And there are many nice commenters. Of course there are. But then of course there is some, you know, how do I put this? Some detritus at the bottom. And if we just read comments alone, I don't think we would have kept on doing what we, what we're doing. So actually going and meeting our people, meeting our audience, meeting industry regularly has been hugely valuable and there's a really special feeling about these events. They were fully charged live for the first 10 or so. The last 10 have been everything electric. And we made the brand, the brand decision to change the brand there. And what that's actually given us is more and more people who are coming from outside the fully charged tension who are just seeing that it's everything electric. And they're, you know, through the graphics etc, they know it's about electric vehicles, electric tech and they're coming in. And even to the extent that Sydney earlier this year we had quite a lot of people saying, I never heard of Robert, I've never watched Red Dwarf, I've never watched. I'm not. It sounds like I'm really raining.
- [21:13]
Robert
I know that's Very true.
- [21:15]
Dan
I don't even know what fully charged.
- [21:17]
Robert
Never seen you. I've never seen it. I don't watch YouTube and they were.
- [21:20]
Dan
Coming in and that was a really good of crossing the Rubicon moment for us. But I think what we found to be interesting, interesting about this change is that you cannot see the consumer market. I'm going to say that as a single monolithic block, people are coming. You know, a few thousand here, a few thousand there and they're coming in their own time. There are people you could argue with online who will never get an ev, but there are lots of people who are getting ready and these shows are a great way of them coming and actually in a very non judgmental, non salesy environment, speaking to people, testing the kit and speaking to other EV drivers, other solar panel owners, etc. To actually kind of make that, make that move. So they've been really, really powerful. And yeah, I should be remiss if I didn't say we're in Vancouver next.
- [22:07]
Imogen
Yep, we love Vancouver.
- [22:09]
Dan
Vancouver in September. Really excited about that. That's sponsored by BC Hydro, who provide huge amounts of hydroelectric power.
- [22:18]
Robert
I still work. That's my favorite. My damn good. My damn good Pete. I haven't lost it, do you know.
- [22:25]
Imogen
And I often worry that you might.
- [22:26]
Robert
Yeah.
- [22:27]
Imogen
And I think about we need to get a second one just in case.
- [22:29]
Robert
Well, they offered me a second one. I said I don't want a new one this because it's really horribly worn.
- [22:33]
Imogen
Oh, it's lovely.
- [22:33]
Dan
You'd have to disclose that under bribery and corruption, I think, but. And it's been amazing to have them in our camp. They actually have millions of homeowners in British Columbia and they're able to promote that show to them. But equally there's a lot of ground roots support as well for that show. And we've got a lovely guy, if you saw the email, a lovely guy called Dave who has.
- [22:55]
Robert
Dave. Thanks Dave.
- [22:56]
Dan
Thanks Dave, who has basically volunteered up his own money to put a huge banner along the highway in Vancouver island promoting Everything Electric Canada. Which is just.
- [23:08]
Robert
What I loved is he was concerned that he hadn't used the right colors. I was going, mate, you don't need to worry.
- [23:15]
Imogen
Any font. Comic Sans.
- [23:17]
Robert
Yeah, it could be anything.
- [23:18]
Dan
So that's, that's fantastic. And then after that, shortly after that, we have Everything Electric south at Farnborough and we've, we've done that show a few times. Well, that's a very exciting show. That's, that's looking really, really strong. Already. But additionally we have got the.
- [23:36]
Robert
A little add on event.
- [23:37]
Dan
An add on event.
- [23:42]
Robert
Sorry, that's perfectly queued up.
- [23:45]
Dan
You can see we don't actually prepare this at all.
- [23:48]
Robert
Hand him the shoe zappy challenge. So zappeap. So this. I'm going to blame Colin Furze. This is all his fault.
- [23:55]
Imogen
All his fault.
- [23:56]
Dan
So we'll talk a bit more about that.
- [23:58]
Robert
We'll do that in a minute. But we're doing the tests live in front of an audience at Farnborough, which is two things. Amazingly exciting and brilliant and terrifying.
- [24:08]
Imogen
Yes, a little bit terrifying. And there's, I would say the atmosphere within the company at this point in time. Is this just nervous energy?
- [24:15]
Robert
Yes.
- [24:16]
Imogen
So excited.
- [24:17]
Robert
Yeah. But also there's like a lot of.
- [24:19]
Imogen
This is outside our comfort zone.
- [24:21]
Dan
Yeah, yeah, it will be fun. I'm sure it'll be.
- [24:23]
Robert
I think it'll be fun. Yeah, it'll be great fun and amazing teams. The teams that are making the things are just incredible. So that's. So we're very blessed with that anyway. Yeah, that's. That will maybe mention and then just.
- [24:33]
Dan
Just very, very quickly. Then we go to Melbourne.
- [24:35]
Robert
Yes. Yeah, very exciting.
- [24:37]
Dan
In November, first time back to Sydney, which has been a huge success. So they must be doing in March.
- [24:43]
Robert
There must be PR going out in Melbourne because we're hearing from Jude. So just to explain those who don't know, my wife is Australian. She lived in Melbourne before we met. She's from Brisbane originally, but she lived in Melbourne and she's hearing from her contacts there. What's that thing Robert's doing here? So that isn't coming from us, it's coming back to us. So there must be something that's.
- [25:06]
Dan
That's sort of gearing up nicely now. Then we have a bit of a hiatus in December, then back to it with everything electric. Sydney in March, back to London in April. April, not Easter. And then we will be going north again next year. I'm so say too much about that. We're going north again next year. That's been a great show for us. And we're also, for the first time we are going. I'm not going to name the venue yet, but we also going to go into the southwest as well with everything electric next year. And we're really, really excited about that because actually our production business is actually headquartered in Bristol. Yeah.
- [25:43]
Robert
So that's probably over June, Northern gateway to the southwest.
- [25:48]
Dan
Yes. But anyway we're gonna. We'll announce exactly where we're going and when soon. And then Yeah, I mean the events have been, you know, fantastic for us and we really, I do enjoy it. Yeah, it is amazing. But yeah, I mean, certainly a tiring.
- [26:07]
Robert
Yeah.
- [26:07]
Dan
Endeavor.
- [26:08]
Imogen
Yes, they, they do have, they are a slog like that. We work, everyone in the organization works incredibly hard but we all get that huge sense of, yeah, it was a success, it was great. But I think, you know, everything that we've spoken about so far points to what an amazing journey that this has been. And it has, it really, really has. But I would say in terms of the heat turning up a little bit in more recent years about how this is becoming increasingly politicized, a complete, increasingly divisive topic. It just feels like we're in a slightly different part of this transition and I know that a lot of the stuff that you've been evolving the brand and evolving the different tranches of the brand are trying to address that. So perhaps we should talk a bit about Electric Vehicles UK and maybe what's next for the channel.
- [26:55]
Dan
Well, I think we're in the kind of the white hot period of the energy transition. I certainly feel that the last two or three years the misinformation has ramped up very, very significantly. These issues have become incredibly political and from our perspective it's extremely unhelpful to obviously, you know, have to clear away all the white noise before you even start to talk about the benefits of these technologies. There are times where it's difficult to watch, you know, politicians be negative about these technologies. For example, you know, press get the wrong end of the stick or maybe deliberately misinform, who can say? But the reality is we remain very, very confident of the end point, as I think does the fossil fuel industry. It actually knows what's going to happen, but obviously it's doing its absolute utmost to delay that. And the reality is that' hard to watch. But one of the reasons we're confident is the technology is not mature yet. So if you take an electric vehicle, for example, you'll know we talk about electrochemistry a lot. There's been huge developments in that area in just in the last couple of years. Now, LFP is the actual, the majority chemistry that's being made around the world and that actually is much cheaper than lithium ion. It's also much safer. And then we know that solid state and sodium ion, all these other technologies are coming along. We've seen a story recently which insinuated that, you know, a Chinese manufacturer might be able to develop a 1200 mile range electric vehicle. So the battery chemistry piece is not over. That's still developing. The charging is getting much, much quicker. The technologies, which are already safer than combustion engine vehicles, are getting much safer as well. And the same applies to solar. It is getting more efficient. People are understanding better how to deploy it. There's a lot more talk about rooftop and housetop solar now than there was before.
- [28:51]
Imogen
Compare perovskite, Whichever it is the new.
- [28:56]
Robert
Material in solar panels.
- [28:57]
Dan
Yeah, wind turbines. Well, wind has been, you know, a huge success story, particularly in the uk. Heat pumps are going to have their day. They're already commonplace in Scandinavia, much colder places around the world. So we know the technologies are getting better, we know they're getting cheaper as they scale. We know that the network effect will kick in. The more EVs there are out there, for example, the more people will go, well, what is their to be worried about? So we are very, very confident of where we're going to get to in time. But it seems to me that there is just so much noise about this topic now that the opportunity to delay it is real. And we as a business have had to kind of mature and say, well, how do we best address that? Can we play a role in that? And so from our perspective, I think we'd always staunchly tried to avoid anything political.
- [29:51]
Robert
Yeah.
- [29:55]
Dan
We were anti establishment almost as a channel a few years ago, but as time's gone by, I think we see the value now of being within the tent, explaining to very, very senior policymakers, for example, senior members of the press, that actually these are the realities of these technologies and actually we do understand it really well. So I think it was a bit of a. Not something we necessarily wanted to do, but for the sake of these industries continuing to grow, we felt we could play positive alongside lots of other people, but we felt we could play a positive role in helping continue to educate.
- [30:28]
Robert
Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that I understood a while ago, but not that long ago, say four or five years ago, was the power and influence of lobbyists and fun and the funding and the money behind them and the influence and the political leverage that, for instance, the fossil fuel industry has. And I don't think it's wrong or bad or evil, that's business, you know. But they will, will dig in the levers with politicians who really do want to change things and not do it, and they've got the force and the power and the leverage and they've got that. And the electric vehicles were a dissipated group of people, some of whom were very influential, some of whom were unheard and there wasn't any thing that you could. However, however successful Electric Vehicles UK is, it's literally a whisper against a 5 million ton machine that is the fossil fuel industry. It's like, hang on a minute, I don't want to waste your time. This is the truth. We've got to burn more oil. It's kind of, that's a kind of cartoon.
- [31:34]
Dan
No, no, but I, you know, it is, you know, and I have to smile about it sometimes because it's actually very, very difficult. Yeah, we can see the technologies that we, we believe are really, really important being completely misrepresented and often within social media you get short sound bites and you can't fully adequately put across the counter argument. You know, ultimately we understand that, you know, if we, if we talk about the climate a lot on the channel, for example, quite a lot of people don't want to hear about that. And, you know, that's a shame. You know, it's a real shame. But the reality is that what we're really aiming for is cleaner technologies and air pollution is a big unifying topic that we think is a way of actually making people aware that this is a problem. So the Royal Society of Physicians, I believe that got that correct, said last week that actually the cost to the health service of air pollution is about £28 billion a year in the UK alone and it's costing about 500 lives a week. And so, you know, whenever we sort of think, you know, feel maybe sort of slightly disillusioned about the fact we're having to, you know.
- [32:48]
Robert
Yeah, these technologies.
- [32:49]
Dan
So there's a, there's a really strong reason behind it. And these technologies are in often cases cheaper.
- [32:55]
Imogen
Yeah.
- [32:56]
Dan
And almost invariably better. And we want to better put the case across at a variety of different levels. You've got this kind of, of vicious circle where maybe there are some overseas owners of tabloids who would be quite happy to denigrate, to denigrate newer technologies and actually, you know, to perpetuate sort of fossil fuels. And unfortunately, that information is where a politician may well feel influenced by be reading that information. So it's a vicious circle. And so from our perspective, we didn't feel we could sit on the sidelines and not participate in that. So about a year ago we set up something called Electric Vehicles uk. We have a Patreon page called Stop Burning Stuff which allows EV drivers to contribute. And part of that is us tackling misinformation, tackling it, you know, particularly the major sources where it's the Mail or the Telegraph, GB News, even very sadly, occasionally the BBC, we can get out there and tackle it. But actually beyond that, we felt there was an opportunity to influence the press and to educate the press. There are some brilliant journalists out there, some fantastic journalists who really understand this subject matter and there are some others who simply just want to create a clickbait headline and, you know, get as many views as possible. And unfortunately, EVs, heat pumps, those technologies are sadly a lightning rod for those sort of criticisms. Equally, we want to be able to influence a political level and we also want to play our part in driving demand because actually if we market EVs and clean tech to everyone, it's a very expensive, very expensive path to go down. And actually we want to be more efficient. We know there are people who are open minded to these technologies and that's who we should be talking to. So we've done some interesting things under the Electric Vehicles UK banner already. We created a Cost of Driving Electric report, brilliant. Earlier in the year which showed that a used EV is on average 2,781 pounds cheaper than a used combustion engine vehicle. So, you know, if you're looking to get into an ev, look at the second hand market. Secondhand market is fantastic. The bulk of people buy second hand. So the idea that EVs are no longer affordable is for the birds, you know, you can get into them now relatively cheaply and then if you get a new or a used EV, the running costs will be something like 5,850 pounds cheaper over a typical term of ownership, which is four years. So you could save on buying a used car and then save on the, at the cost of running them, or you could just get a new one and save on the cost of running that as well. So we're trying to make the point clearly that they are in fact cheaper. We are just in the process of running a ride along event with MPs in Westminster to get them into the car so they can actually understand that they are cheaper. They are better to talk to them about charging and any other issues to help build a relationship with them so we can keep educating them. So when they talk to their constituents or the constituents, see says actually this isn't quite right for us because of X, Y and Z. We give them the tools to be able to actually go back to the constituents and say, actually no, this could work for you. And here is why we are and I'll put a link to it in the show notes. We are creating a kind of a myth Busting masterclass infographic that I think, which will be really, really useful. And when you come up against someone who's very anti EV online, you'll just be to share this with them and I think it will really surprise them because I think there's a few things on there that people don't just don't under understand. And now we're trying to get companies in the industry to join us as partners. That's going very, very well. And ultimately we do want to help the industry drive demand by better educating press, better educating politicians, better educating end users as well. All under a single mantra. So make America great again. Love it or hate it.
- [36:50]
Robert
It definitely worked.
- [36:51]
Dan
It catchy, right? It's a slogan. And I think one of the things that we struggle with as EV drivers often is there's so many things we like about EVs.
- [36:58]
Robert
Yeah.
- [36:59]
Dan
Sometimes we get incredulous that people can't see that what we can see. And sometimes you have to get in.
- [37:03]
Robert
Them to try to have an enormous hat with an enormous amount of writing on it.
- [37:07]
Dan
Yeah, exactly that.
- [37:09]
Robert
Like 40 pages. They're going, what the hell is that hat say?
- [37:14]
Dan
That's exactly the point. You know, we, we will not, not win a communication competition by creating something that's too unwieldy and too complicated. So our whole strategy is very, very simple. It could just about fit on a cat, which is cheaper, better battery electric.
- [37:31]
Robert
Right.
- [37:32]
Dan
And then we want to evidence cheaper. We want evidence better and we want the whole industry to repeat that mantra until people understand it. The cheaper and better bit is important that they're together as well, because cheaper could mean inferior and we know EVs aren't inferior, so you have to have the better bit as well. Better could be more expensive, but the cheaper bit is cheaper, better battery electric.
- [37:55]
Robert
That's good.
- [37:55]
Dan
And ultimately, ultimately we do know, and I still speak to every people every week who know what I do for a living and they say, I do want one, but they're more expensive.
- [38:06]
Robert
Yeah, yeah.
- [38:07]
Dan
And so that is the single thing cost that will move more people than anything. Some people will move because they don't want to pollute, of course. Some people will move because they want new tech. But it is the cheaper message that is the key message above all. So we're making some headway with that. We do rely on people supporting the stop burning stuff, Patreon. We do rely on industries supporting Electric Vehicles UK to do that because as you say, it is a David versus Goliath task. But we think we can make Some progress with this message.
- [38:37]
Robert
And I think actually David's slightly bigger than I was implying. I was implying David. He's about there. I mean, the oil industry filled this whole room, but David's getting, you know.
- [38:45]
Imogen
Yeah, well, I think the thing that's fascinating, I think, in all of that is that we have an audience. We're so blessed that our audience is so engaged and so on the same page as we are. And I have a theory about whenever we talk about climate change and it sort of switches people off and I think it's because our audience, like, yeah.
- [39:00]
Robert
We know, yeah, they know about.
- [39:02]
Imogen
And we're doing the stuff, or we're frustrated that we cannot yet do the stuff because it's currently out of budget or the policies don't work for us. And I think the value of Electric Vehicles UK is exactly that of, like, how do we speak to the people outside of this echo chamber and equip the people inside the echo chamber with the tools they need to speak, you know, to those people?
- [39:22]
Dan
Well, that's exactly right. I mean, one final thought on this is that that's why misinformation is so powerful.
- [39:27]
Robert
Flooding the zone with negative stuff.
- [39:30]
Dan
Negative stuff is very, very powerful because then everyone just runs after, oh, no, that's not true. And I'll correct it, I'll correct it. And so actually, what we're doing, Electric Vehicles UK, is about 20% of our time is spent on correcting misinformation.
- [39:42]
Imogen
Yeah.
- [39:43]
Dan
Amongst the biggest sources. But 80% of our time is going to be on reframing a positive narrative, as you say, making it easy to understand, evidencing it, and then enabling people to actually sort of share that message. Because if we constantly chase negatives and we constantly reacting to the negative narrative, we won't get anywhere. We need to be much more single minded and I think that's the genius of misinformation.
- [40:06]
Imogen
So I'm gonna make a chess analogy. I feel like I've made a weird amount of chess analogies in various podcasts, which is kind of astonishing because I'm very, very bad at of chess. But when I played my husband, he taught me in lockdown. He's very good. I am newer to the game and I find myself if I'm suddenly playing in a defensive mode, I will always lose. And that kind of 80, 20 rule is so important in anything because actually you've got to go out with as much pushing in the direction that you want as much as being ready with the defence.
- [40:37]
Dan
How often have you been online and someone said something negative about electric vehicles, a subject about which we understand a lot more than the average. At what point have you gone back and the person's gone, you know, you're right. Actually never.
- [40:52]
Robert
I've had that happen very, very rarely. Very, very rarely.
- [40:56]
Dan
Right, so why are we spending all of our time talking to these people when there are lots of open minded people who can be persuaded by the cheaper, better battery electric message?
- [41:05]
Imogen
Yeah. And you know, I mean I had just bring up two responses that I had that were quite amusing because I think it's always important to go back with kindness and open mindedness to say, well okay, here's the pragmatic information that I can share with you. And one person told me to get back in the kitchen, make me a sandwich. Brilliant. Thank you very much.
- [41:25]
Robert
So proud of men. We've really moved on.
- [41:29]
Imogen
And then the second one, I shared a really well researched article that the AA had done. They'd done it with Ewan McTurk, who obviously friend of the show, incredibly well researched thing about particulates and brake pads, etc. And I said, oh, this is my source, this is what I'm referencing. What's your source? And this guy said, my source is my eyes. I was like, well, I'm never gonna win with your anecdotal data that you're bringing to this. And actually that's okay. You need to come on this journey in your own time. And we should be spending our time.
- [42:01]
Dan
Sort of on the sort of universal infographic we're producing. We do mention particulates and actually there was a fantastic study done by Greater London Authority and Transport for London by a company called eit. I think it's the last word in particulate pollution. It came out in the last month or so. It's about non exhaust emissions. We already know that. You know, if you don't have an exhaust pipe or a tailpipe, there are zero emissions from the tailpipe. But actually what this shows is that brake dust emissions are 83% lower.
- [42:38]
Imogen
Wow.
- [42:38]
Dan
From EV, because obviously breaking one pedal driving. And what it does say, which I thought was very, very interesting, is that the tire particulate pollution is based on the average weight of the car, 20% more. You don't have to buy a bigger car of course, but I'll let that lie. 20 more because the weight of EVs is on average a little bit higher, but only 2 to 5% is airborne. So 95 to 98% is not airborne. Now I'm not saying that particulates going into the runoff and is unimportant. What I'm saying is when it comes to air pollution, respiratory diseases amongst children, for example, that is a red herring. So this infographic is going to contain a lot of that, a lot of that good stuff that you can actually push back. Because I think people believe what they see and it's shorthand, it's easy, right, to believe what you see and then you kind of get locked into a particular idea. But we've been doing this a long time, we're very, very close to it. And so from our standpoint, yeah, Electric Vehicles uk, we're hoping we can make more and more of an impact over time.
- [43:40]
Imogen
But I suppose all of this points to the fact that Fully Charged Show Everything Electric show has just grown astronomically in ways that I don't think anyone could have expected. And reaching out to the Electric Vehicles UK element of it, it talks of the way that all of these different bits of the puzzle need to connect in a very cohesive way, which I suppose segues perfectly onto what might be happening to Fully Charge show the future of second DRUM roll.
- [44:09]
Dan
Well, I think a bit more build up before the drum roll. But, you know, the reality is that we have grown as an organization. We have now, you know, Fully Charged Everything Electric Zap Heap. Electric Vehicles uk. Electric Vehicles UK is going to be spun off as a separate business owned by industry, not owned by Fully Charged. So it's been useful and helpful for us to begin it within our tent, but ultimately we are going to gift it to industry. But actually what you will see is it is confusing to have too many brands and it isn't obviously clear. You know, if you listen to the podcast before, when Robert introduces the Fully Charged podcast on the Everything Electric channel, you know, that's, that's not necessarily ideal. What we've done over the last three years is we started our second YouTube channel, which, if you can remember, began life as Fully Charged Plus.
- [45:00]
Robert
That's right, it was Fully Charged plus.
- [45:02]
Imogen
And I think it's just turned seven years old.
- [45:05]
Robert
Oh, right, seven years old. Because I always think of it as the new thing we do. It's not new at all.
- [45:10]
Imogen
There's little alerts.
- [45:11]
Dan
I think it's as a, as from a growth perspective, it's after seven years, it's ahead of where Fully Charged show was at the same point time. And we also have changed the name of our live shows at the start of last year to Everything Electric as well. And we were, I guess probably doing what corporate businesses do, which Kind of leading up to a bigger brand name change. And so you could do the drum roll now if you like it. Yeah, yeah. From today onwards we are going to line everything up under the Everything Electric brand. So everything that we do will be known as a fully charged show production. Whether it's that peep or Everything Electric.
- [45:53]
Robert
Etc, that's the company behind the Everything.
- [45:56]
Dan
Will be known as Fully Charged Show Productions. But even as of today, the fully charged show will become Everything Electric Cars. Everything Electric show will become Everything Electric Tech. All the exhibitions already Everything Electric followed by their location. Even the podcast, to your relief will become the Everything Electric Podcast. Podcast. So everything is a fully charged show production. Nothing's changing in that respect. But we actually think that's a positive, much clearer way of engaging with our current audience and our future audience as well. And as I said, what's interesting about the evolution of the brand is that people are now coming to our shows because they're seeing it's very obviously about electric vehicles, it's very obviously about electrification as opposed to Fully Charged, which has been an amazing name and is still our overarching name.
- [46:45]
Robert
Kind of a obscure, but if you didn't know. Yeah. If you don't know, you don't know.
- [46:49]
Dan
So I mean we discovered this a few years ago. We were, we were talking to people outside of our bubble.
- [46:54]
Robert
Yeah.
- [46:54]
Dan
And we had to begin explaining, explaining what we were. And obviously I think it was Reagan who said if you're, if you're explaining, you're losing.
- [47:03]
Robert
Right.
- [47:03]
Dan
Think.
- [47:04]
Robert
Yeah. So it's all the Republican presidents really set the agenda.
- [47:09]
Dan
So from our point of view, it's really what I exciting to do that we've been gearing up to that for three years now.
- [47:16]
Robert
I mean, for me, what's made me feel very comfortable about it is when we changed the name of the live events. You know, again, I'm sure I went through a night of the soul anxiety. Oh no, it's going to come, it's going to be over. It made it much better and much. Because that was the thing we did in Sydney. We changed the location of the event, the date of the event and the name of the event, which we really.
- [47:37]
Dan
Not supposed to do.
- [47:38]
Robert
Three things changing many variables. And the new show did so much better than the old one. But I think that it just, it's more all encompassing. I mean that's why, you know, Fully Charged just kind of came about. It wasn't ever really considered in any. There was no focus group where I sat behind a two way mirror Going, I wonder what they. You know, there was none of that, it was just sort of. That's what it became, you know. But I think everything Electric defines what we do so much better.
- [48:05]
Dan
But the spirit will always be fully charged, right?
- [48:07]
Robert
Yeah, the spirit is fully charged and.
- [48:08]
Imogen
The umbrella, it's not going anywh anywhere. It's still fully charged. Show productions is the umbrella.
- [48:13]
Robert
Right.
- [48:13]
Imogen
So it does live on in that capacity.
- [48:15]
Robert
Yes.
- [48:16]
Dan
So yeah, even, even Zapiefs are fully charged show production.
- [48:19]
Robert
Yes.
- [48:19]
Dan
Maybe it will lead to other fully charged show productions while the YouTube channels, the podcast, the events will be everything electric.
- [48:27]
Robert
Yeah.
- [48:28]
Imogen
Which it has led on to another thing. If, you know, if we didn't think the umbrella was big enough with our shows, with our two channels, with our podcast, with Electric Vehicles uk with everything, there's one more thing to add.
- [48:41]
Dan
Well, we are going to start for the first time. Robert's like, what is this?
- [48:45]
Robert
I know, I've read the email, but I've forgotten.
- [48:47]
Dan
I think you've built it up too much.
- [48:49]
Imogen
No, no, I'm there.
- [48:51]
Dan
We are, we are opening up an everything Electric store.
- [48:54]
Robert
Oh, I'm so excited about this.
- [48:56]
Dan
So we are starting to branch out a little bit more in that respect. We are asked, asked constantly about merch.
- [49:04]
Robert
Yeah.
- [49:05]
Dan
And T shirts and things like that. So we are going to do a little bit more of that, but actually it's more about offering the technologies that we promote and enabling people to, to get hold of those starting in a limited capacity. We have to, to test these things out. But you can go to everything Electric store and you could buy used or new ev.
- [49:27]
Robert
Yeah.
- [49:29]
Dan
Today, which is, which is great. We're really, we're really majoring on the used stuff and also the cheaper cars. It's not like we'll never cover expensive cars as a channel, for example. But isn't it so great now that there's affordable EVs available, whether it's used or new? So that's our, kind of our sweet spot, I would say. But we're doing that where people will be to buy it in the UK only to begin to begin with and then we'll expand out hopefully over time and then, yes, we would love to start selling the odds electric skateboard or heat pump, solar panel chargers, etc, under the everything Electric brand. So exciting times from our perspective. I cannot imagine how many people have bought electric vehicles, all shapes and sizes and clean technology because of Robert, because they're fully charged and at no point have we ever, you know, gained anything from that.
- [50:24]
Robert
I don't want to think about it, I had a nice lunch with Nissan many years ago and they paid for it.
- [50:29]
Dan
But in terms of actually, you know, growing the business, we want to have more baseload energy. I think that would be the, to mix the metaphors, you want more, you want to have other revenue streams, not just the, just the events business as well. So yeah, limited to begin with and hopefully that'll grow out over time.
- [50:45]
Imogen
So looking forward to, to the next 15 years.
- [50:49]
Robert
Yeah.
- [50:49]
Imogen
Where do you think we'll be when we're having this conversation in 2040? Hang on, had to check my math. Is that right will be 2040?
- [50:58]
Robert
I don't know. Well, for one thing I'm not going to say what age I will have reached by then. If I'm very lucky, I think it's going to be batteries. And I think the more, the longer we do this, the more you see the, the evolution of the battery. The fact that the technology and the science behind storing electricity is the real game changer. I mean one of the things I remembered when I was thinking about this, the stuff we've learned, I remember talking to a lovely man and I'm going to remember his name just after we record who worked for General Electric, who was with wind turbines and his estimate was 10 megawatts was as big as they're ever going to get. And they then a couple of years later they did a 12 megawatt and I think even a possibly a 14 megawatt offshore wind turbine. So, and just to put that in perspective, Battersea power station with four chimneys was 20 megawatts.
- [51:47]
Imogen
It's astonishing.
- [51:48]
Robert
So, so, but, so you know, nearly that size. But within the last six, six weeks, China have installed their first 24 megawatt single wind turbine of scale that we cannot even begin to imagine. And so that one wind turbine produces more electricity than the Battersea Power Station did in its heyday when it was burning tons of coal, which is so that there was no way we could like 15 years ago, you wouldn't see that. But also, why are people putting in massive battery packs all over the world? You know, they get bigger every time I hear about a new renewable energy storage thing, it's mind bogglingly bigger than. This is the biggest battery in the world now it's not as tiny. That one over there, that's 10 times bigger. The reason they are is because those batteries are so cheap now and they're getting cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. That most recent report of the $10 a kilowatt hour battery that's gone from $1,800 a kilowatt hour when we started making fully charged to $10. I don't know how true the $10 a kilowatt Hour is. Sodium, it's a sodium ion battery in China, but it's cheap in comparison what it weighs.
- [52:56]
Dan
I think there is, there's the stuff that we know is going to change and I think there's a few things that aren't going to change as much as we might have imagined. In terms of the stuff that will change, I think Robert's right. I think, you know, you could see solar becoming increasingly ubiquitous, right?
- [53:11]
Imogen
Yeah.
- [53:11]
Dan
More efficient. You can see wind becoming more ubiquitous, more efficient, bigger, etc. Energy storage, we used to talk about it about 10, 15 years ago as the holy grail of the industry. It's still in its relative infancy. We talked about all the different chemistries, talks about EVs suddenly having over a thousand miles range. Not that you need that of course, but you know things are going to change very, very significantly. Speed of charging, all those sorts of things. So anything I think with solar, wind, batteries and electric vehicles is going to change enormously over the next 10 years. And that's why I think people who are negative about technology are really not scanning ahead or really not aware of the progress we've made is actually going to probably be dwarfed by the progress we're going to see in the next 10 years. The additional thing is bi directional. That's really going to unlock it. Suddenly vehicles are going to become assets. We were at the Octopus EV event, Octopus, sorry Tech Energy, Tech Energy Tech Summit last week and what was interesting is they revealed that they were doing a package. You may be better articulating what that package is, can you remember? But it's it, it really has had a huge impact I think already.
- [54:25]
Imogen
So for £299amonth you can get a BYD dolphin and it will have bi directional capability. This is in partnership with BYOD and Octopus and owing to that bi directional capability, so you can give energy back to the grid, you can drive for free, you will not pay for your miles. And I think that's, and you kind of alluded to it earlier, this sort of intersectional ability that these clean energy technologies have. If we solve for tailpipe emissions, we're also solving for healthcare. If we solve for bi directional capability and home energy technologies and electric vehicles. The panacea is that people can have that access to travel, that gives access to other opportunities. They could have energy bills that Go to zero. That's phenomenal. And that's a systemic change that we are going to see in the next 10 to 15 years.
- [55:15]
Robert
So just to make that really clear to people so that we can understand it. So if you, if you can park a car off the street and you have a, an octopus charger, is that how. Because I wasn't at the event. So they've got their own, their own charger. So that's the bundle you're getting. So you're paying a lease on the, on the vehicle. You can plug it into your house. Can it run your house? Is it that or is it a big.
- [55:37]
Dan
I think it's going to be plugged in 240 hours a month.
- [55:40]
Imogen
Yeah.
- [55:40]
Dan
I don't misquote.
- [55:41]
Robert
Right.
- [55:41]
Imogen
Something like that.
- [55:43]
Robert
Right.
- [55:43]
Imogen
You are plugging in. So when you're home the kind of. The expectation is that you're plugging the current. But I mean you would do that anyway should you have access to off street parking. And because octopus are clever and they have Kraken.
- [55:54]
Robert
Yeah.
- [55:55]
Imogen
The sort of clever whizzy bit behind it, they can continually trade that energy in the car with the grid they're trading.
- [56:02]
Robert
So they, it is vehicle to grid rather than vehicle to home. It's about, it's about them taking some of the energy out of the battery.
- [56:08]
Dan
And of course you've recently filmed with we drive solar Renault 5 bi directional Renault 5 in Utrecht, that the business models, the bi directional aspect, that is going to change and it's going to make these things economically. It's going to be the ultimate no brainer for people. So that's going to change and then there are a few things that I don't think will change anything like as much as we thought they would. We still have the philosophy that there should be fewer cars in the world. But what we can see now, and we saw it directly after Covid, is that car culture is hardwired really tough into the way we think, but also where we live, the way we operate. And so it's been something of a furor to get people to change from combustion engine vehicles to electric vehicles. Can you imagine the change required to get people out of cars into bikes, into car sharing? It will happen. I'm confident that that will get better. But the days where we thought everyone would ditch their car.
- [57:12]
Robert
Yeah, just get rid of it, man.
- [57:13]
Dan
And maybe get.
- [57:14]
Robert
Share everything.
- [57:15]
Dan
Maybe get a micro car and an electric bike. I think the reality is that the future will look a lot more similar to what's gone before. We Also have to go through an intense period of change with the car companies. We know that there will be consolidation in China. We know that there are too many companies, it's too competitive. I think they know that and I think the whole, they've set up their whole market to be competitive, survival of the fittest, to come out with the strongest brands. I think it will obviously have an impact on legacy automakers as well. So that could change quite significantly. And then the other thing really is autonomous. What does that do in the next few years? And actually I'm quite bullish about that in the long term. But you asked about the next 10 to 15 years. I don't see huge change apart from in certain cities around autonomy, because I think that the reality is that getting people to give up, as I say, combustion engine vehicle to go to electric has been hard. Imagine how hard it's going to be to get them to give up cars, car ownership. Certainly younger generations are going to get more and more into autonomous vehicles. There's also the looming specter of can young people actually afford vehicles. What does that mean for the car industry? But if you talk about the next 10 to 15 years, I think the stuff that we cover has got a very, very bright future. And then the 15 years after that, who cares? We'll be too old, won't we? Not you, Imogen, obviously, but Robert and.
- [58:39]
Robert
I, I'll be 100.
- [58:40]
Imogen
But that's fine, I think. But everything that you both described there, it's like the technology exists. We can trust that it will get better. There's still a huge mindset shift change that needs to happen. And we've been chatting about Rory Sutherland. I met with him the other day, we want to get him on the podcast and he is an expert advertising sort of guru, but he writes a lot about behavioral science. And for example, wouldn't it be amazing if when you move to a new place, when you move to that new place, you get a month free bus pass so that you spend that month familiarizing yourself with like how it actually works and all these sort of little nuggets that we could could like utterly low tech solutions that could drive some of that mindset, mindset shift to see, you know, the things that we want delivered at scale, which yeah, I think.
- [59:27]
Robert
I do think that we will see and I think that's going to be generational like yours exists in Utrecht is a car sharing in cities. It makes so much sense, it makes it life much easier. And the people I spoke to and Utrecht who were kind of University graduate, you know, middle or upper middle class people by our standards who've chosen deliberately to sell their car. Because having the, the variety of cars on offer, really easily, it's not difficult. It's very, very. What's that word when it's not gritty? Frictionless. Yeah. There's a word anyway.
- [60:00]
Imogen
Seamless. Seamless.
- [60:01]
Robert
It's just a very seamless operation to go. I need to go to the shops when I need to take my three year old. Oh, there's a car with a car seat in the back and it's got enough room in the boot. Put the. I'll use that one and you use that one and you don't need a bloody car.
- [60:13]
Dan
Yeah. It's so much better to clarify. I don't think those things are not going to happen.
- [60:17]
Robert
No, I just think they're not going to be.
- [60:18]
Dan
Change is going to be massive. Slower than some.
- [60:21]
Robert
Yeah. Might hope.
- [60:22]
Imogen
Yeah.
- [60:23]
Dan
Industrialists might lead you to.
- [60:25]
Robert
Yes, yes. No, I think you're right.
- [60:27]
Imogen
I'll just leave you on, on one thing and, and it's so funny that on the one hand we want people to drive electric vehicles, but the sort of real shiny gold thing in the future is actually don't own a car, but if you use a car, you use an electric car.
- [60:39]
Robert
Yeah.
- [60:39]
Imogen
And I was with a friend yesterday and she was like, oh, you know, what should I be doing to be more sustainable? And I was like, well, what do you currently do right now? And she said, I do not have a car. And she said it with such like cry. That's great. That is amazing. And I think that could give us a lot.
- [60:56]
Robert
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [60:57]
Dan
I think that is, that is going to be a bigger and bigger part of the society that we live in. I think, you know, want to end this on a positive note, but when it comes to all the misinformation out there, I think we have ways of tackling that. I think the, the biggest thing I worry about is, is younger people coming through.
- [61:12]
Robert
Yeah, yeah.
- [61:13]
Dan
And what they're going to be afford, you know, ultimately, you know, from home ownership becoming less possible now, you know, similarly car ownership might become less possible.
- [61:23]
Imogen
Yeah.
- [61:23]
Dan
Does there, is there an end of the road for the automotive industry as we know it now in 15 to 20 years? Quite possibly. But I think the next 10, 15 years is going to be hopefully an improved version of what we've seen. If we can get through this period of rampant misinformation and the fossil fuel fight back is like I've ever seen before.
- [61:44]
Robert
I think One of the reasons, very couple of points I just want to make very quickly. One of the reasons they're fighting back is because of the enormous global uptake of electric transport. And I mean, I think in particular the thing I just saw in. We saw in Shanghai, the scooters, two wheeled. Show me one two stroke motorized scooter in Shanghai. There aren't any. They're all electric because they're easier to use, they're better, they last longer, they're cheaper to run. You go to the battery swap station, you take a battery out, put it in, take it. Takes you less time than to fill it with, with two stroke fuel and then it goes and there's thousand tens, millions of them, not tens of thousands of million. And that has resulted in an actual measurable drop in oil consumption around the world, which is, you know that you imagine the alarm bells going off in Exxon and Shell and everywhere else when that happens.
- [62:35]
Imogen
Okay, we have been wanging on for probably far too long. I can see out of the corner of this eye a beautiful frittata that you have made that we have to consume. We've also got.
- [62:45]
Robert
Which is cooked using solar power and an electric oven.
- [62:48]
Imogen
We've also got a caterpillar cake because it is.
- [62:50]
Robert
We've got a caterpillar birthday. We've got roasted peppers as well.
- [62:55]
Imogen
What a day.
- [62:56]
Robert
And. And freshly compotted cherries because it's cherry season with either ice cream or organic yogurt.
- [63:05]
Imogen
Do you know you live quite remotely, right. And I was going to buy some ice cream and I thought there's no way it could get here in time. And I then had this conversation in my head of how do you buy ice cream? But clearly you managed.
- [63:15]
Robert
Yeah, we did manage.
- [63:17]
Imogen
Let's leave it there. For anyone who is watching or listening and has made it as far as this point, well done. It was a marathon. But also please do all the usual things like comment, subscribe, share with a friend. We really do value it. We wouldn't have been able to grow to this point if it weren't for people like yourself. So that's all we have time for. Thank you for listening to the Everything Electric podcast.
- [63:42]
Robert
So exciting. Now visit Electric Vehicles Expert where you can follow Everything Electric and keep current with Clean Technica, the Driven Electrek and many more.