Loading summary
Transcript68 lines
- [00:00]
A
Hi, this is Joe from Vanta. In today's digital world, compliance regulations are changing constantly and earning customer trust has never mattered more. Vanta helps companies get compliant fast and stay secure with the most advanced AI automation and continuous monitoring out there. So whether you're a startup going for your first SoC2 or ISO 27001 or a growing enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta makes it quick, easy and scalable. And I'm not just saying that because I work here. Get started at vanta.com shipping, billing, admin, payroll, marketing.
- [00:32]
B
You're managing all the things, so why waste time sending important documents the old fashioned way? Mail and ship when you want, how you want with stamps.com print postage on demand 247 and schedule pickups from your office or home. Save up to 90% with automated rate shopping. That's why over 1 million small businesses trust stamps.com go to stamps.com and use code podcast to try stamps.com risk free for 60 days. Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Everything Electric podcast, where today we are catching up with Tom Hurst, the UK country director for FastNed. Now, if you're not familiar with FastNed, you will invariably recognize them as the yellow beautiful structures adorning various charging locations across the uk. They have a fast charging network right here in the UK and also across Europe. And we're going to be delving into all of your charging questions. But before we get to that, a couple of things to tell you. 1 Please do like and subscribe and share with a friend. We really value it. We're not just saying that. It does help us out and make sure that we can have interesting conversations like the one you're about to listen to with Tom. 2 I've got a cold. I apologize, I am a little bit sniffly in this conversation. Three did you know that there are over 88,000 public charges right here in the UK? What an astonishing number. So thank you very much ZapMap for that particular stat. And three we are about to get into this conversation but first a very very quick advert break. Our three free YouTube channels on EVs and clean energy tech are funded by our fun packed test drive Tastic events and in the north west and Greater London and our events down under. Next up, everything electric north 2026 plus check out everythingelectric store for merch and much more. Tom, thank you so much for giving up your morning. This morning's chat to us on the podcast. According to LinkedIn, you are UK country director for FastNed, but what does that actually mean what would you tell your friends at dinner parties?
- [02:46]
A
So if my friends are ever interested, what I will say is FastNed is the company that builds and operates petrol stations for electric cars. It's that simple. We build locations where you can drive into a site, fill your car, your electric car, obviously, with as much energy as possible, as quickly as possible and get on the go again. And if they're a bit more interested or they know a bit more about the EV sector, I'll say, look, we're the guys that build the canopies. That's really what the business is. We do that, we operate them and we give customers a great experience. In terms of my role, yeah, I'm the team director, so I support the teams that find locations, design locations, build locations and then operate them and provide customer service. Branding, marketing, the whole shebang. As a company, Fastnet, it's worth noting we are operational since 2019 in the UK. We actually built the UK's first ultra rapid charging hub back then in 2019 in, in Sunderland and we continue to grow. We've got great ambitions for the uk.
- [03:51]
B
Well, we were discussing before we clicked Record, that we met at the Oxford park and Ride, where is there is a Fast Nerd site. And I know I've said this a thousand times on the podcast, so sorry for any of our regular listeners who are thinking, you're incredibly boring, but I always go to that charging spot because I don't have a charger at home and so what I'll do if I'm driving to a shoot, I will do my hair at home, drive to that charger, plug in, do my makeup in the car and then drive off. And I go to that one because I'm not going to get rained on and think, oh, why the hell did I blow dry my hair? What a waste of time. So certainly canopy alone and how visible they are definitely makes them extremely appealing to people like myself.
- [04:38]
A
Well, yeah, I mean, the general principle is, why should you as an EV driver be any wetter than a petrol driver?
- [04:44]
B
Yeah, why? I think that's a. That's a great. I hope you've got that as a mantra somewhere written on the wall. So I am guessing that you are going to have a extraordinarily busy 2026, but if you had to write it down on a, on a Tom's to do list, things that are your top priorities, what's on there?
- [05:05]
A
So I think my summary would be, we are looking to catch a few of our white whales. The best way to describe that we've got a number of locations that are super exciting in our pipeline and they've been in our pipeline for a long time, because for some reason, building these canopies is quite challenging at times. People ask you, why would you build a canopy? When you submit a planning application, for example? And we spend a long time convincing them. And they have very big grid connections and there's lots of fun associated with grid connections, which I'm sure everybody's heard lots and lots about before, so I'm not going to go into detail there. But finally, some of those white whales are coming to fruition. Now. We're starting on site on a number of them in the coming weeks and you're going to see a lot more of the stuff that we at fastnet really focus on, that we're really proud of and that our team members are so invested in delivery. So the mission is to slay those dragons to catch the white whales and really help kick up a notch. The charging experience in the UK for EV drivers.
- [06:06]
B
So I think we almost have two narratives here in the uk. We have the narrative of people who are EV drivers and largely they would say it's fine, it's good, it's getting better, but there will inevitably have been a couple of experiences where they've had just a terrible experience. And then there's the other narrative that maybe we see in some popular tabloid newspapers and amongst non EV drivers who assume that it's absolutely terrible. Where would you say the reality is? And I guess not just for fastned, but more broadly as well.
- [06:41]
A
Yeah. So certainly from my perspective as an EV driver. Right. So not just from fastned and as a member of the charging industry, I'm very clear that the industry continues to invest in head of demand. The infrastructure is there ahead of the demand, but we need to continue to do so. Right. We've got 5% of EVs on the road today, of cars on the road today being electric. A further 95% need to be addressed and that needs continued rollout. The good news is the charging sector as a whole is committing 6 billion in investment to 2030. That's investment that the taxpayer doesn't need to make themselves. This is really, really next stuff. But you know, you mentioned the media, you mentioned all these sorts of things. Perception is really important and the media plays a role in shaping perception. And perception then can very quickly become reality. And that, you know, that's the thing. Right. What we're trying to do at FastNed and across the industry, of course, is to really improve driver confidence and improve prospective driver confidence. And our role, particularly at FastNed, is to, to be the ones making the investments in this sort of stuff that you see behind me, right, the stuff that you can see on the motorway alongside your daily commute, even if you're in a petrol car. And you think, yeah, actually I can see myself making the flip, you know, when my next. When my lease comes to an end or when my old banger finally kicks the dust to buy a secondhand car, whatever it is. I can actually see EVs as being a valid alternative. But we've all got this role in shaping and building this perception.
- [08:19]
B
What do you think are the core ingredients in building that perception, that trust and confidence?
- [08:24]
A
I think consistency is key. Reliability. I mean, the buzzword is reliability, right. But the word is consistency. Consistency and quality of experience. So coming to a location and knowing, for example, it's a fast insight. I know how it's going to feel. I know the interface, I know the charges are going to work. There are going to be enough charges. It sounds like bread and butter, but too often it's not. We need that consistency across the whole landscape of charging.
- [08:52]
B
And in researching this podcast, I think you'll be able to tell me the correct number. But there is a sort of regulation that charges need to be above a certain percentage, reliable. I think it's like 99% or something. And for FastNed, you're like, yeah, but we've already been doing that for quite some time. Boring.
- [09:09]
A
Yeah, no, it's an interesting one. So, again, it's so important to have that, know, commitment to reliability because your customers feel that they experience that and that 1%, you know, any customer that hits that 1%, you know, that unlucky 1%, their whole perception of your network will be shaped.
- [09:25]
B
Yeah.
- [09:26]
A
From that one, that, that one experience. So on our side, you know, we've, we subject to confirmation from government because it's, we've just been reporting to this. We've. We've hit that 99% milestone quite considerably, actually. I think it's worth noting that our own internal metrics of reliability and uptime are even stricter than those of the government. The difference is we don't fine ourselves up to £10,000 per charger if we get it wrong, for example. But yeah, it's really important and drivers deserve this.
- [09:58]
B
And I suppose there's also an element that there must be a minimum number of charging columns that you need per site in order to drive that, that confidence as well, because you Know, if you've only got two and one is down, that, that's a real headache. If you've got six, you can kind of get away with it. Is there a magic number that you've landed on?
- [10:20]
A
Yes, but what I would say is that magic number evolves with time. So the magic number used to be two. You know, we've been building these hubs since 2012 in the Netherlands, right. At the time people thought we were crazy for installing two chargers on the side of a motorway, so for putting a canopy on top of it. Even then when there was just the Nissan Leaf on the road, you know, the 22 kilowatt hour version. Right. With a range of 60 miles on a good day, that number, the minimum number of charges to be sensible, to give that comfort and confidence, that grows as the market grows, as expectations grow. So I would say it was probably six a year or two ago. I think it was probably a minimum eight these days is what you're looking at. It does depend where you're building. It depends on the type of location. Is it a real on the go site? Is it an urban hub or something? And what are the typical users going to be? Is it transient traffic? Is it regular users who rely on this for their day to day or their business or whatever it might be? But I think it'll continue to grow to some extent. The real challenge for ChargePoint operators is to, to manage, let's say, the over capacity. How far do you go beyond that minimum level? Because that is a cost, it's a fiscal cost, it's an operational cost and generally you want to avoid that too much redundancy. But again, that's a challenge as well, because if people don't see your availability on the great summer getaway, or in France, for example, we have the great winter getaway, that will still lead to those negative experiences. Right. If you have to queue at a location, for example. So it's a balancing act.
- [12:03]
B
Gosh, that's interesting because yeah, you're right, redundancy adds a huge amount of cost. But it does add, there's the benefit of being perceived to be available, reliable people ultimately don't like to wait. People hate queues. Yeah, what an interesting equation that must be.
- [12:21]
A
So for us, I mean, our little secret weapon, let's say, is we invest in the underground redundancy, the future proofing that lets us for a successful site, pivot to more and more charges very quickly. Sometimes just overnight, we can install another charger. So if we see a site that's performing well or it's tracking well and it's going to be hitting some form of a peak or a threshold. We can then respond to that very quickly and maintain that level of that sort of minimum degree of redundancy, let's say.
- [12:50]
B
Well, I've definitely got questions on power availability and that kind of future proofing. But before we get to that, I want to ask you a little bit about the site at Newcastle because is pretty exciting, not least because it's outside of London as well, which we know is pretty well served when it comes to charging compared to the rest of the uk. But also whilst it has all the tropes that we see in all fastned chargers, the Newcastle site is a little bit different. Can you tell us a bit about it?
- [13:15]
A
Yeah. So first of all, it's the same charges as you'll see on any of our fastnet sites, certainly on newer ones, but it's our favorite kind of station at Newcastle. We love building drive thru sites, we love the full canopy, we love the amazing customer experience that comes from you driving in with your trailer, with your caravan, with your long wheelbase vehicle and not, you know, annoying a number of other EV drivers. For example, because you're blocking 20 bays. Yeah, it's a 12 charger hub. It's. They're all 400 kilowatt chargers. The solar canopy is making a great difference to the driver experience there as well. It's also in our favorite region. It's worth noting. Let me come back to that in a bit. But we're very committed to the northeast and so we're always very proud to do more and more in that area. And yeah, it's part of the. What I think was interesting for me is it's still in its early days actually it's worth noting but it's part of a sort of a new multimodal transport development for Newcastle Airport. So we've got the high power charging hub, the holding pen for Uber taxis is there, there's a cafe coming in, there's a new sort of park and ride facility on the opposite side. There's a metro station right there. People will be dropping their families off at the location and for all these different types of users it serves a use. And yeah, I'm very interested to see how that evolves in the coming weeks and months.
- [14:47]
B
Basically it's really interesting because when I read this and doing my research, when looking at it's a drive through site like it is in a petrol station, you're like, yeah, why aren't more chargers like that it feels like such an obvious thing and especially invariably a lot of charging stations there sort of plopped in a tiny corner of a car park and actually reversing into them is a little bit tricky. It seems such an obvious way to make the experience that much easier.
- [15:16]
A
Yeah, no, I totally agree. And for us it is obvious. But as every other charge point operator in the UK will have found, land is expensive in the uk, there's a lot of competition for it, for land, for other uses indeed, like cafes and drive throughs and these sorts of things. And the sort of path of least resistance to getting infrastructure in the ground has been to install these parking bay charging arrangements. And in the UK we're not immune to that. I think There must be 32 of our hubs that sort of parking arrangements. But we've now, you know, we've got four, sorry, five. I correct, corrected, five drive thru hubs in the uk. So one down in King's Lynn, the Newcastle Airport, one our first one in Sunderland and two in Northern Ireland that we've just opened as well at the start of last year. And it really makes a difference, it really makes a difference to customer experience, to utilization. Yeah, we love it.
- [16:13]
B
I guess it's sort of that much normalizes the experience as well, particularly for new EV drivers because it looks so similar to the petrol station experience is like you mentioned that the Northeast is a very important region. Why is that?
- [16:27]
A
So first of all, as I said before, that is where we opened our first station in Sunderland. It's the region that had faith in us back in the day. We first pitched for that land in 2018 when we didn't exist in the UK. But even back then that region was already leading the E mobility transition. The uk, you know, they've got an amazing academic cluster there, they've got strongly motivated politicians. Obviously the manufacturing base of Nissan is there and all these other advanced industries. So they saw what we were offering, which was certainly at the time, next generation stuff. Right. This was some of the, I think it was the first ultra rapid charging hub to be publicly operating in the uk and that's what we promised and that's what we delivered. And if there has to be, there's something I would tell our location partners and prospective partners. What we continue to be known for is that we're the guys that actually do what we say we will do. Digressing a bit here, but when we open some of these sites, we've opened one in Martlesham in Suffolk, working with the council there, they Came to the launch and they're like, you actually built it. We just thought that was like a fancy marketing rendering actually. Wait, it's one of these here behind me. Yeah, that's that one, that one. Apologize. But anyway, back to the Northeast, we've, you know, in starting there we were just, we loved working with, you know, the main local authority stakeholders in Sunderland City Council in the Northeast combined Authority. Their, I would say that their own pride was so infectious and you know, we delivered for them. And now as a result of that we are, you know, we opened another five sites there, six sites in the, in the first year or two of our operation we've got 13 operational in the Northeast now we've got two more that will be starting in Gateshead in a couple of weeks time or weeks and months time. And we continue to densify there because you know, we're not, we're not the company that builds charging hubs where the money is, let's say, or where, you know, public, you know, common perception is that that's where the most logical place is to build. Right. Are London and the Southeast. There are cars all around the UK and what we find when we open these hubs all around the UK is that they get well used, they're valued and they really, really help with connectivity for people's day to day lives. So whether it's Northern Ireland, which is, you know, banging right now, Scotland, the southwest in Cornwall, we're active there and we're being sort of rewarded for that investment that we're making. This episode is brought to you by Hankook. The Hankook Ion tire is built exclusively.
- [19:14]
B
For electric vehicles, engineered to deliver what.
- [19:17]
A
EV drivers need most confident, grip, quietness.
- [19:21]
B
Energy efficiency and long mileage. As the official tire partner of Formula.
- [19:26]
A
E HongKook proves its EV technology is.
- [19:29]
B
At the highest level of performance and brings that same innovation to every ion.
- [19:34]
A
Tyre on the road.
- [19:41]
B
So you've kind of mentioned it a little bit there, but I'm really curious to understand about land and ownership and it seems the part of the success of your of working in the Northeast is that you have a fabulous relationship with local councils there. But equally there are landlords involved in this as well. And there's a huge requirement for power on site, which can throw up some headaches as well. So I wonder if you could just walk us through who were the different stakeholders that need to be involved and where do the biggest sources of friction arise?
- [20:14]
A
Okay, okay, I'm doing my best in this one. So I mean, what, yeah, what you're asking for is essentially our, or the generic ChargePoint operators development model. So what, you know, first of all, our teams have got to find a location, they've got to, you know, strike a deal with the landowner there to operate the infrastructure for a number of years, decades in our case. Right. Because we are, we're investing in sites that will still be operational in 2015. So there's a lot of discussion there about how much land we need and, you know, how it'll be utilized and all this and, and what the returns will be for our partners in that. So that's one discussion that will lead you to some form of agreement to lease that land. You've got to also secure power one way or another. You've got to reach out to the grid operators and understand what your connection costs are going to be, what the length of cable is going to be that brings the power from the main grid to your location. We've then got to, generally speaking, sign up some form of sublease or other form of contract between the grid operator and either us and, or the landlord. It's also possible that there'll be a party called an independent distribution network operator involved, which is another third party, let's say. But there are good reasons for using them as well. And then you've got to go and convince the local authority that, you know, what you're proposing to build is worth building and actually adds value to the, the built environment and the transport ecosystem in the local area. And then you've got to build the thing. But, yeah, so a lot of these requisites, they involve contracts, they involve legal negotiations, commercial negotiations, and every negotiation is scoped for lag. You might shake hands with a landlord very quickly, in the space of a few weeks, for example, but then the lawyers get. And we've got great, lovely lawyers in fastnet and indeed, the arming legal external counsel that we use are fantastic. But you have got to deal with some, either skeptical landlords or skeptical lawyers in particular at each phase of this process. And yeah, if there's one big lag, it's not one of these. It's not, it's not. You know, you hear about grid reinforcements and all these sorts of things. Yes, sometimes that is required. I'm sure it'll be required more and more as we go on. But the biggest lag originates from those legal negotiations that have been underpinned the built environment in the UK since the Magna Carta, basically. Right. Like the property is king and all these sorts of things.
- [22:59]
B
God, and I wonder and this could be a really stupid question, but how is that challenge changing, given that data centers are becoming much more of a priority? They also need land that has good access to power. And yes, they're probably in different areas because where you drive and where you want a data center probably are different. But how is that changing the game.
- [23:20]
A
For you so far? Not, I would say, exactly as you say, we're in competition for land by good high traffic locations where our drivers are going to be comfortable, there's going to be amenities next door or we're going to be able to add amenities. Luckily, most data centers are going for old industrial land or completely in the middle of nowhere to limit their impacts. I think one of the great things to note is that there has been a real flushing out of, I think they call it zombie projects on the distribution network that were holding up grid connection capacity for years and years with no development prospects. And so what's happened now is that we've seen the distribution network operators make power available much more quickly and straightforwardly to basically on a first come, first serve basis as long as you've got a prospect that can be delivered in reasonable time frames. So maybe this will be an issue in the future and I suspect it'll be driven by the UK's role in the AI transition more than anything else. Right. But at least for charge point operators like us, it's not an issue that we've seen just yet.
- [24:28]
B
So in London you're working in a slightly different way, I think, with an organization called Places for London. Can you tell us what that is and why it is a little bit different?
- [24:37]
A
Yeah, for us it's a real, it's a monumental project. So Places for London is Transport for London's property business. It owns all the assets, all the land. You know, the fact that not the factories, the shops, the retail units, the arches that make up the transport network and the land associated with that. So we entered into a joint venture with Places for London last year to build and operate a growing network of charging hubs all around the capital. So we'll both co invest millions of pounds for some seriously advanced and exciting infrastructure, the likes of which we haven't seen in London before.
- [25:18]
B
Really? And why is it that that sort of really streamlines that process? I know that sounds like a really obvious question.
- [25:27]
A
No, so the interesting thing is it's still a commercial arrangement between us as a joint venture partner and Places for London as a property owner as well, but you're dealing with a single property owner and the most Important thing is we're dealing with a property owner that is motivated by more than just returns, you know, because often that that's a logical undertaking for anyone who owns land. How much am I going to make? But through its role, you know, it's ultimately answering to a public body. The joint venture and Places for London are specifically motivated to really enhance the charging experience for drivers in London to do more than just the bare minimum. It's not that it's not the charges around the back of parking bays like you mentioned earlier. So it's flagship stuff that really demonstrates commitment, it demonstrates availability and it provides large scale infrastructure for EV drivers. And beyond that, it's committed to its role in the community, it's committed to regeneration. It's not just a story of what percentage return am I going to make on this particular property.
- [26:36]
B
God, that's a mammoth partnership and I'm guessing that it's exclusive with Fastener. There aren't other charging partners involved?
- [26:45]
A
Yeah, we're their joint venture partner. Correct.
- [26:47]
B
Oh my goodness. How did you wangle that? That's incredible.
- [26:50]
A
I think really, as I said, they're not motivated just by numbers. If you want to make, well, in theory make a lot of money from charging, you plump down a charger and wait for the returns just to come rolling in. But if you want to build a long term business that is sustainable and generates returns that are long term as well, you actually need to focus much more on customer experience. You need to focus on the whole branding ecosystem. And one of the main reasons they chose us then was for our leading role in the transition, our long term commitment to this since day one, and our proven ability to build this kind of infrastructure in the UK and across Europe as well.
- [27:25]
B
So I have to ask you the horrible question about cost, because if I don't, someone in the comments will say, why did you not ask about charging costs? What we know, and this is not unique to fastned, this is the case for every rapid charger across the uk. It's expensive, it's really expensive. I think currently it's around, well, somewhere between 79p and 98p per kilowatt hour, depending on which charger provider that you go to. We also know that there's been so much debate around the fact that you pay 20% VAT on public charging versus 5% VAT on home charging. And I'm just kind of curious to know what sets that price in the first place. What are the mechanisms that determine that that's what you need to charge in order for this to be a profitable business.
- [28:10]
A
Yeah. Okay, well we can definitely delve into that. Right. We can look at what makes up the price. So looking at fastned, looking at just about any other operator of ultra rapid charging infrastructure, there's a few key elements to the price. First of all, there's the actual cost of buying the energy. When you break it down to the wholesale cost, it's not different at all or barely between the different operators. Right. So our input costs are the same. You've then got the cost of building. Well, it's not building, just operating a substation, a transformer on that particular location because if you want to be charging at speeds of up to a megawatt, for example, you also need a transformer of up to a megawatt or, and beyond. There are grid fees associated with that. So they start to lump on quite significantly and they differ quite significantly between sites. Some were talking a couple of hundred pounds a year, others were talking the tens of thousands per year with no real rhyme or reason. From a infrastructure sort of perspective, you've then got all the costs associated with maintenance, you've got the costs associated with having built that in the first place and making those investments. And then we get to these. Yeah, I mean some of these more unnecessary costs like vat where you know, if you're obviously, if you're lucky enough to benefit from the driveway discount, you're paying quite a different sum that is entirely out of control of. Out of the control of the charge point operator. It's an inequality that's, you know, unnecessary and we, we don't like to see. And we're. Yeah, we're obviously still very keen for government to, to levelize.
- [29:46]
B
Yeah. What needs to happen then to ultimately see that cost come down? Is it a case of actually they just need to be in the ground for a long time to recoup some of those initial CAPEX costs or what happens? What do you need?
- [30:01]
A
What do we need? What's the best way to describe this? It's part of that. Right. I think a big piece here is that we are investing in advance of the transition. So we're investing for scale and levels of utilization and usage that we know are coming and we know are going to be on the roads in whether it's 2, 4, 5, 10 years time, because we believe these sites are valuable and they're going to continue to be valuable. So that investment does indeed need to be spread out over some depreciation period. It needs to be then recouped through charging revenues that's a key part of it. But, yeah, again, what also needs to change is these escalating grid fees. They've been going up year on year and again, penalizing Those operators like FastNed, who are having to invest in a big transformer now, a big substation, to be sure that these sites can continue to grow into the future and be valuable. So we're definitely keen to work with, whether it's offgem or just the government themselves, on balancing out and being a bit more fair and proportionate with these particular costs.
- [31:15]
B
That's really fascinating and I mean, it's also interesting to me that, you know, FastNed and others also offer various. The rate is cheaper if you get a membership, for example, which, you know, for someone like myself, who my fastnet is the charger I use the most frequently, that makes total sense for people who are, you know, using all sorts of different networks, perhaps less so. But then when you look at someone like, I think it's Bev, they have a crazy price of like 39p per kilowatt hour. And I can't wrap my head around how they've reached that. Do you have any guesses?
- [31:49]
A
I don't think it's one to sort of speak to any particular network. Right. Like, as I say, underlying costs are very similar. They really are. I think, you know, whatever network it might be, you know, lowering your prices at certain times is a good way to drive up low utilization. Right. In theory, it doesn't necessarily guarantee that you're going to see more revenues, but it does help you justify and demonstrate certain things to your investors. So that can be a particular driver for this.
- [32:18]
B
So you've not been in the role for a million years, I think, have you? How long have you been with FastNed?
- [32:26]
A
Eight years.
- [32:26]
B
Oh, it actually kind of is a million years. Yeah.
- [32:29]
A
When I started, and I'm not even a veteran by the scale of the UK industry, but when I started, there were 22, 2000 EVs on the road. I was like, oh, my God, this thing is happening. It's going to be huge. And we're selling 20, 22,000 EVs in a couple of weeks here in the UK. Now it's. It's. It's fantastic.
- [32:44]
B
Oh, my goodness, I have got that so wrong. I thought it was three years because I was going to ask about your experience at. I can never say this word, arup. I always want to say arup. I can say Arab. What? When you sort of stepped out of that world and into the world of charging what was the thing that surprised you the most, perhaps?
- [33:06]
A
I mean, when I was at arup, you know, I was involved in an energy and climate change consultancy. I've been advising, you know, whether it was local authorities, businesses, NGOs and such, with elements of climate strategy, emissions strategy, energy, you know, policy, etc. I was definitely quite to be. To be fed up of writing lovely reports, which I was thankful profusely, and that you watch the reports go on a shelf somewhere and say, thank you very much, job done. Okay, we've done our commitment here. I was really keen to get involved in an industry and make change in building things and making that happen. And, you know, literally back then, hydrogen was still something that was possibly, possibly a thing. Right. The next big thing is coming. These hydrogen cars are going to be great. EVs were also on the table and these, you know, renewables in particular, they'd already hit their boom, they'd already hit the mass market, they were highly investable by big institutions and it was not the sort of thing that you could, let's say, break into as a novice in some ways. But EVs was a different story. And hydrogen. But luckily I had plenty of time to understand the fundamentals of thermodynamics and all the challenges associated with, with making hydrogen work for passenger cars versus EVs. Knowing that you can plug in an EV at home, I mean, that's the simple game changer. It's the simple reason why we are today. Right? Yeah, I'll make this leap. And then it's one of these things. Like, I happened to look at a LinkedIn advert at the right time because I'm actually half Dutch. So I'd been driving down the Dutch motorways that summer, seen fastnet stations even then, which were not too dissimilar from these on the motorways, going, what is this infrastructure? This is really cool. These Dutch know what they're doing. But actually I thought it might be hydrogen when I first saw it. Right. But no, it was EVs and I happened to see the opportunity at the right time. But honestly, what really surprised me, and I think is still largely the case in the, particularly the charging sector, was the degree of collaboration and openness and positivity that you see, Right? Yes, there's a whole bunch, especially in the charging sector, there's a whole bunch of competitors involved. But I was really inspired by the degree to which everyone was working to build this sector, to put it all together to communicate to drivers the benefits, the logic of doing this and then creating something from nothing, creating something from an idea, from a vision, and bringing people on board with us to make that happen. And to the point where the sort of predictions we boldly made previously are all coming true. And it's hugely satisfying.
- [35:55]
B
I'm so glad I asked you that question, because I kind of knew that you'd give that sort of response. You are so evidently someone who gets a real buzz and joy from delivering something that you believe in. And perhaps that is the difference between working in an engineering consultancy and what you do today.
- [36:15]
A
I'm sure everyone working in the engineering consultancies believes in everything they're doing, But.
- [36:24]
B
Whenever I meet anyone who's sort of quite new to the EV industry, they always say the same thing, like, oh my goodness, people are so nice. People want everyone else to be successful. And of course, I'm sure there are outliers to that rule. I've not met them yet, but it is that thing of we've all come into this industry at a similar sort of time, really believing it, and it is that perfect case of all ships rising, et cetera, et cetera.
- [36:47]
A
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I'm sure it will turn horrendously cutthroat in 10 years time or so, but we have got to make that transition. There's 30 million more cars that need to shift one way or another, and they need to be provided for. So there's a lot of work to be done. And yeah, I'm much more in favor of growing the pie rather than fighting for slices of the pie.
- [37:08]
B
That's a perfect analogy. Now, you've mentioned a couple of them as we've gone through this podcast. So, for example, good relationships with local authorities, working more closely with OFGEM around the cost of transformers and powers, etc. And also the 20% versus 5% VAT. But if you had a kind of wish list of stuff that you could just write on a little bit of paper or announce on this podcast, and by the power of the podcast, it would just be fixed and sorted. What would be on your list?
- [37:41]
A
I mean, I mean, the ultimate wish is, can we, can we delete contracts? You know, can we just make them not exist? And can we go to something that, like we have in the Netherlands, where whether it's a location lease or a grid contract, it's two pages long, it's embarrassingly short, it's straightforward to deliver, and it leads to lightning paces of delivery. So I would gladly find, you know, accept a wish that meant that we had less contract, that would change the whole legal landscape in the UK and a whole bunch of people would be without jobs. So let's not wish that. But yeah, you talk about barriers to deployment and it's crazy. This is a systemic thing for us in the uk. But then in terms of other wishes, practically speaking, what we need as a chargepoint operator to continue to make these investments is we need a degree of certainty around where EV sales are going to where the transition is going. And what's been so great about the UK is that for really quite some time, we've had clear commitment from government across, you know, across different administrations now on the direction of travel, on this commitment to phase out dates and all these sorts of things. And so my. If I had a wish, it's really that we do hold strong because the deployment of infrastructure depends on this. Jobs depend on this. And the UK's competitiveness in both Europe and the world and academically and technologically is also closely tied to this. It's been, you know, so the signals from government have been such great signals of intent. My wish is to keep them.
- [39:19]
B
Do you know. And from a consumer perspective, it's always the trope that your house and your car and your wedding are like the biggest purchases that happen in your life. And actually, if there's any degree of uncertainty that's created through those signals changing, it's annoying for household chitchat, let alone, of course, all of the ripple effect that that has to the economy, to planning, to jobs, etc. Etc. I cannot believe the difference between the contract process here in the UK versus the Netherlands.
- [39:51]
A
It is real.
- [39:51]
B
That's. I mean, I wouldn't have even known to have asked that question. That is crazy.
- [39:59]
A
Yeah, it's the uncomfortable truth. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of things, actually, it has to be said, in the uk, we do a lot of things right. And when I talk with my country director counterparts in France, Germany, Holland, there are definitely things that they envy as well. But contracts is one of the main ones, but the other, we've got differences between us, but the common thread is really the political will behind it. And so that's the main thing that we need. Whatever country we operate in, that we really need, we need this commitment to the transition, basically, because then we will invest millions into the uk, into whatever country we can to help drive this and really just maintain the standards and shape what drivers expect and what they feel that they should expect. I think my biggest concern for the future is, is that drivers themselves come to come to see it as acceptable, that they just, you know, plug in a dusty, dirty charger out in the rain, whatever it might be. Right. For all their needs. I don't think it needs to be that way. I think it's quite a depressing reduction in expectations. Right. That we're here to change.
- [41:11]
B
Well, the other double points that I will give fast is obviously not only that there is a canopy, but the screens are all at eye level. And that is not the case with some charges where it's really low screen. Like the screen is really low down and you see some people doing a funny squat or, you know, anyway.
- [41:29]
A
Well, no, it's a balancing act as well. Right. Because that is very important for those wheelchair users, for example, that need to access them as well. So we find a balance, make sure that our sites are open for everybody. And I think that that is the key for us as well. We cannot afford to either directly or indiscriminately, indirectly discriminate. It really matters to us that everyone is safe and comfortable using this infrastructure. Because we want to sell kilowatt hours of electricity, why would we exclude any particular party or driver? It's fundamental.
- [42:07]
B
Thank you so much to Tom for joining us on the podcast today and for dealing with my rather snotty voice as well. I really appreciate it. Before you go, as I said at the start, if you could, like, subscribe, share with a friend, we will forever be your friend. But also if you could also write a guest that you'd like to see appear on the podcast, that would be wonderful. We always read the comments. We always appreciate your points of view. So, yeah, write any names that you think of in there and we'll be sure to pursue them and get them on the podcast in the near future. But that is all that we have time for today. As ever, if you have been, thank you for listening and watching. Are you noticing your car insurance rate creep up? Even without tickets or claims? You're not alone. That's why there's Jerry, your proactive insurance assistant. Jerry handles the legwork by comparing quotes side by side from over 50 top insurers so you can confidently hit buy. No spam calls, no hidden fees. Jerry even tracks rates and alerts you when it's best to shop. Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year. Don't settle for higher rates. Download the Jerry app or visit Jerry AI Libsyn today. That's J E R R Y AI Libsyn. Feeling frugal and can't fathom forking over a fortune for 40 weeks. Forget the flim flam and shop the fantastic four day sale at Denver Mattress. That's four phenomenal days to fund your financial reserves with 100 bucks off every thousand you spend. Flip out over the first rate Colorado Twin for only 149.99. Find fierce savings up to $500 on select Tempur pedic mattress sets. Plus get a $300 gift and finance for 60 months. No interest, no down payment and free shipping. But hurry. The Fantastic Four Day Sale at Denver Mattress ends in a flurry.