The Scrapheap Story and Why We Should Be Optimistic About The Future with Dr Cathy Rogers!

Summary

The Fully Charged Podcast: The Scrapheap Story and Why We Should Be Optimistic About The Future with Dr. Cathy Rogers

Release Date: October 28, 2024

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Introduction

In this inspiring episode of The Fully Charged Podcast, host Robert Llewellyn welcomes his longtime friend, Dr. Cathy Rogers, to discuss her newly released book, "Future Vision: Stories of Our Brilliant Tomorrow." While typically delving into sustainability, eco-news, and renewable energy, this episode takes a unique turn by exploring optimism and the potential for a brighter future through the lens of children's literature. Dr. Rogers brings a fresh perspective on fostering hope and creativity in young minds, aligning seamlessly with the podcast’s mission to highlight positive advancements in our world.

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Background and Connection: Scrapheap Challenge

Robert and Cathy reminisce about their shared history working on the groundbreaking television program Scrapheap Challenge, a precursor to the internationally acclaimed Junkyard Wars. Their collaboration on the show spanned over 25 years, beginning with a pilot in 1997 and leading to multiple series that celebrated engineering ingenuity and resourcefulness.

Notable Quote:

Robert Llewellyn [03:10]: "We worked together on that for four years. I think the pilot was in '97, and then we did two or three series together."

Notable Quote:

Dr. Cathy Rogers [06:43]: "Scrapheap Challenge had an enormous impact. Hundreds of people told me they got their jobs in engineering and science because of it."

Their partnership not only shaped their careers but also inspired countless individuals to pursue STEM fields, demonstrating the lasting influence of positive media representations of science and engineering.

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Dr. Cathy Rogers' New Book: A Beacon of Optimism

Dr. Rogers introduces her book, "Future Vision: Stories of Our Brilliant Tomorrow," aimed at children aged 8 to 12. Unlike the often grim narratives surrounding the future, the book is steeped in optimism, showcasing how the world can evolve positively through collective effort and innovation.

Notable Quote:

Robert Llewellyn [00:05]: "It's about optimism, it's about the possibilities of how we can change the world for the better."

The book employs a narrative device featuring a character named Kit, who in the year 2070 reflects on past developments with wonder and admiration. Each chapter combines engaging stories with scientific insights, encouraging young readers to envision and contribute to a sustainable future.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Cathy Rogers [25:11]: "We wanted to show that there are reasons for optimism based on the millions of fantastic people working all over the world to make the world a better place."

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Fostering Optimism: The Neuroscience Behind Hope

A significant portion of the discussion delves into the psychological impact of fostering optimism in children. Dr. Rogers highlights the detrimental effects of fearmongering and negativity, which can lead to feelings of helplessness and depression among young minds.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Cathy Rogers [24:00]: "Fear mongering is really counterproductive as a. I don't think you hear do me messages or fear mongering and think I must really try and do something to overcome that. You feel helpless and you feel depressed."

She explains that incorporating optimism and positive visions for the future can empower children, enhancing their mental well-being and motivating them to engage in proactive behaviors towards sustainability.

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Educational Initiatives: Futures Club

Expanding beyond the book, Dr. Rogers discusses the development of a Futures Club program for schools. This initiative aims to engage children in creative thinking and problem-solving, encouraging them to imagine and work towards the future they desire.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Cathy Rogers [28:09]: "We’re developing a program of activities that just gets them, asks them questions that they don’t often get asked. The things they think about and the ideas they have inventions...that’s our real hope."

The program offers activities that stimulate imagination and critical thinking, allowing students to explore innovative solutions to global challenges, thereby fostering a generation of forward-thinking individuals.

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Sustainability and Positive Change: Real-World Examples

The conversation transitions to real-world examples of positive environmental changes, emphasizing that significant progress is achievable. Robert shares the optimistic news that the last coal-burning power plant outside Nottingham is set to close, marking a pivotal moment in the UK’s transition to renewable energy.

Notable Quote:

Robert Llewellyn [34:52]: "Next week, literally next week from when we're recording this, the last coal-burning power plant will be closed down. It's just outside Nottingham."

Dr. Rogers echoes this optimism, highlighting the collective efforts of engineers, scientists, and policymakers working tirelessly to foster sustainable advancements.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Cathy Rogers [33:28]: "There’s loads of work that has already been done, which if we keep doing it and accelerating, it has got the potential to turn into amazing things."

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Inspiring Future Generations: The Role of Media and Literature

Both Robert and Dr. Rogers emphasize the crucial role of media and literature in shaping young minds. By presenting science and sustainability through engaging and positive narratives, they aim to inspire children to take an active role in building a better future.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Cathy Rogers [51:23]: "We really wanted a book about the future that kind of is green and has pages, lots of flowers...it’s actually as much about nature as it is about technology."

The illustrations and storytelling are meticulously designed to avoid the stereotypical "silver and streamlined" future, instead portraying a vibrant and nature-integrated world that appeals to children’s innate creativity and curiosity.

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Space Exploration: A Symbol of Human Achievement and Hope

The discussion also touches upon the significance of space exploration as a symbol of human achievement and collective ambition. Dr. Rogers advocates for the democratization of space, ensuring that space exploration benefits all of humanity rather than being dominated by a select few.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Cathy Rogers [37:14]: "I really hope that we will be able to have that feeling again sometime. Like if we discover life on another planet...space needs to be democratized."

This vision aligns with the optimistic themes of her book, promoting the idea that shared human endeavors in space can inspire global unity and progress.

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Conclusion: Embracing a Positive Future

As the episode wraps up, Robert and Dr. Rogers reiterate the importance of fostering optimism and proactive thinking in both children and adults. They encourage listeners to engage with Dr. Rogers' book and participate in educational programs that cultivate a hopeful outlook towards the future.

Notable Quote:

Robert Llewellyn [52:18]: "I want to thank you for being who you are and doing amazingly positive stuff for the world."

By highlighting the interconnectedness of science, education, and positive media, the episode serves as a compelling call to action for listeners to contribute to a sustainable and optimistic future.

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Key Takeaways

• Optimism is Essential: Cultivating a positive outlook, especially in children, is crucial for mental well-being and fostering proactive environmental stewardship.
• Role of Media: Positive representations of science and sustainability in media can inspire future generations to engage in meaningful change.
• Educational Initiatives: Programs like Futures Club empower children to envision and work towards a better future through creativity and critical thinking.
• Collective Effort: Significant environmental advancements are achievable through the combined efforts of engineers, scientists, policymakers, and informed citizens.
• Space as Inspiration: Space exploration symbolizes human potential and collective ambition, serving as a unifying and inspirational force for global progress.

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Recommended Action: Listeners, especially parents and educators, are encouraged to explore Dr. Cathy Rogers' book, "Future Vision: Stories of Our Brilliant Tomorrow," and consider integrating the Futures Club program into educational settings to inspire and empower the next generation.

Transcript

[Robert Llewellyn]

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Fully Charged Show Podcast. This is a very special episode because it's a talk with a very good friend of mine, Dr. Kathy Rogers, who has just produced an amazing book. This book is not the sort of thing we normally talk about on the Fully Charged show, but it is relevant. It is aimed at children between sort of the ages of around 8 to 12. And it's about the future. It's about how the future will be better, not worse, than it is today. It's about optimism, it's about the possibilities of how we can change the world for the better. And it is really lovely book. I just want you to check it out. If you've got children in your life somewhere that are of an age group that might appreciate this, it's definitely something that would inspire a conversation, future visions, stories of our brilliant tomorrow. And I just want. I will let Kathy explain it because it's a really clever book, but also, just so that you know, Kathy and I worked on a television program many years ago called Scrapheap Challenge, and we do mention that a little bit at the beginning. Anyway, please do subscribe to the Fully Charged Show Podcast. I like to say this early on and tell your mates about it. If you've got an annoying uncle that thinks we're all doomed and we're going to have to live on fossil fuels for the next million years, tell them to maybe tune into this and we might be able to shift their opinion. I doubt it. Anyway, please welcome to the Fully charged show podcast, Dr. Kathy Rogers. This episode of the Fully Charged Podcast is brought to you by OVO's Charge Anywhere. Charge Anywhere helps you power your car wherever you are, plan your route and pay. You'll have access to over 34,000 chargers across the UK's largest charging networks and more than 400,000 charges across Europe. Setup is easy. Just download the OVO Charge app, create your account, add payment details, hit the road and start charging. There's no need to be an OVO customer. Either simply pay as you go or benefit from up to 15% off your charging with monthly boost packages. Ovos Charge Anywhere Power your next journey with peace of mind. Kathy, hello. So exciting to do this. It feels like more of a treat than a job to come and talk to you about this. And I just finished the book on the train this morning and it's so genius, but I want to get to that in a bit.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Okay?

[Robert Llewellyn]

So I want to explain to our lovely viewers and listeners why we know each other and how long we've known.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Each other more than our maths can.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Probably do, I think 25 years plus, isn't it?

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes, let's just leave it at that because it makes us feel reasonably still.

[Robert Llewellyn]

So I met you in a converted fire station.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Upstairs above a fire station. In Fulham.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

In Fulham.

[Robert Llewellyn]

In Fulham. In London. And you were talking about a television program that went on to be relatively successful. Would you like to tell our viewers what that was called?

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

I think at the time it was probably called Scrap Heap.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Because it didn't get the challenge until a bit later. And also I think we were looking originally for highly qualified, scientifically knowledgeable presenters. But then we found you and that was so much better.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, but what. And that four years. So we worked together on that for four years. I think so, wasn't it?

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah, we were trying to remember. So we did the pilot, I think in 97.

[Robert Llewellyn]

97. And then the first series.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

First series was just you. And then from the second series. But we were working on it together. But I was buying camera. And then we did two or three series together.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Oh, I think certainly three, because it was 2001.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

2001 is when it became also Junkyard.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Junkyard Wars.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

And I then moved to LA and we did that funny thing where we made that whole series of scrap peep.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Challenge in LA with English teams that flew out.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

English teams and English scrap.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Like you remember we had to fly out like napkin old minis and things.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Like that to dress the set.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah, yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

We're just in Hampshire.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah. Hot in Hampshire, isn't it?

[Robert Llewellyn]

39 degrees centigrade in Hampshire. Yeah.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

So. Yeah, so that was 2001. Wow. And then I think we saw sense that that probably wasn't a long term solution. And then you. The British series carried on here and the American series carried on there.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, but that was. But what was amazing, I think that first year, just for people to know, we used to make. Didn't we make the whole episode in one session? Yeah, I was going to say one day, but it was more than one day. Long day over into a second day.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Well, there was a classic moment in. So we would. Yeah, the teams would build all day and then we'd have a bit of time to tinker.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

And to set the kind of like. Yeah. And we would shoot it then. I mean it was very dramatic because it was sometimes like it was in the dark and so it had to be all lit. So the one I remember is the power pullers one.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

That we filmed on the kind of like Slag heaps next door to the scrap heap. And I remember you disappeared when we were trying to do a piece to camera and I think were found asleep on some grade 3.2 graphic.

[Robert Llewellyn]

That was where I discovered. So there were piles of aggregate.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

That's what.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Aggregate, sorry, Piles of aggregate. They go like that. Big, huge piles. And I tried one and it was very rough and when you lay on it, it was really uncomfy and you slid down. Then I tried another, like almost sand, and that was just. You slide off it. So it was 3.2 mil aggregate. It's exquisitely comfortable.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

It's the modern Goldilocks story, isn't it?

[Robert Llewellyn]

So I fell fast asleep. But to say, like, oh, poor old Gay, he was already falling asleep. Then it was two in the morning.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

It wasn't like ten o'clock at night. So I think we did as. I think we did. There was six shows.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. We didn't do all the tests.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

I think three were that same day and then the other three were the next day.

[Robert Llewellyn]

That was insane.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah, that was insane. I mean. And that's us complaining. All we had to do was kind of like sit around doing our nails and doing the occasional.

[Robert Llewellyn]

There were people doing moving cameras and lights and making machines that worked.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Anyway, but that was. I mean, I'm sure you're aware of this, but the thing that still stays with me to this day is I will meet engineers and people who work in the automotive industry and in aerospace and in all sorts of stuff who said, I got this job because of scrap heap. You know, it's not one or two, it's hundreds of people like that. Yeah, it had an enormous impact.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

It is. Yeah, it is amazing. And I. Well, I think you've interviewed Hannah Ritchie for your show and I mean, she's a hero of mine. I think it's incredible the work that she does. And she, you know, that was her Sunday night with her dad watching Scrappy. I mean, not that we can really take all the credit from everybody, but, I mean, you. I think it's a little seed of something.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I think it's. I just wanted to sort of highlight the fact that it could have happened without any of the other people that were involved, that people might have seen on telly or the teams or anybody. But it wouldn't have happened without you. It was your idea initially. That was what. I mean, can you do that story about Apollo 13? That idea was. So. It was the catalyst of what became Scrappy.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah. And I have to credit somebody called Eve K who I worked with at the time. So we were. It was a time when we were doing lots of development in lots of different areas. And me and Eve and I think another researcher were kind of like the science and engineering sort of like trying to come up with ideas. And that film came out at the time and that scene that was so memorable from the movie was when they tipped out a load of what looked like a rubbish. Rubbish of what they had up there in the space capsule. And from this they had to generate something that was going to save life, you know, save their lives and save the mission. And there was something in that idea that got us. We went off on a few sort of red herrings of ideas.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Well, with people up the top of a tower, a crane tower. I remember once with a walkie talkie.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Trying to like, there's a bit of.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Wood over there, Go grab that. And saw it in half.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

And there was also a version where we were going to try and find real historical stories of when people were stuck in the desert and found that if they weed into the petrol tank and did such and such, you know, like. So. But they were quite hard to find. And then I think it was actually David Frank who just sort of said the word. It's like a scrap, people, something like that. And that opened up the idea of actually that thing of them turning out the bin full of bits. Yeah, let's just do that on a massive scale. Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Well, it's great, though, because you're. That's very modest of you and very humble of you, because all. Ever since I started Scrap Eva, I've always said it was entirely 100% Cathy's idea and it wouldn't exist without her. So there were other. It was very generous of you to do.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

I mean, I do think those things are never one. They're never one person. And it is just its little spot. It's very much like the show itself. It's like little sparks of ideas from lots of different people and suddenly you realize that you've got something. And even like the first series, I'm sure you'll remember, because we had you in all sorts of funny outfits doing kind of weird medieval proclamations, because of.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Course they have siege engines and all that stuff.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes, exactly. So we went a bit Vorsprung D technique. Do you remember that? As they said in another time, and you try things out. And I think it became clear after the first series there were lots of things that we wanted to change because.

[Robert Llewellyn]

It was the same teams as well.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

It was the Same people exactly. Yeah. One of whom was Dick Strawberry.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Dick Strawbridge.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

That's where we, I think you and I launched his very illustrious career.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

He's never thankful get a cut from everything he does. Yeah. So it was the same teams and also we realized, I think we learned a lot about the sheer level of skill that the teams need to be able to actually get through it. But yeah, then I think there were lots of things that we did differently for the second series, particularly like having it be a knockout and a bit more. All or nothing really made a difference and having a bit more time between building and testing and lots of stuff. But yeah, so everyone brings an extra bit that shapes it in any way.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But it was one of those ones where I definitely thought. Because I think that was. This is my own, my take, I can do it in one sentence and we're going to really try. Was that then I'd done quite a few Weird, Quirky Channel 4 One Off Science, ish, vaguely kind of related stuff that never would never seen again. Hollywood science. I remember that that was a correct. Actually that was BBC but you know, that was a short series. That was a really, I thought really good idea.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah, same.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And it was a one off and then when we finished Scrap Heap I went, it's just, why can't I do something that goes on? It's not fair. It's a one off. No one's going to watch it. It's finished, you know, I'll do something else, you know. And that was 10 years before we actually got to the end of it. Yeah, it lasted a long time.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

I know it is still. Well, I guess there were a few things because I think Time Team was around at the time and I think that had sort of tapped into a pool of really interested people who weren't normally the kind of people who were on telly. And I think that's. And there was Robot wars around the same time which again, it was like, oh, suddenly there. It's not just that this is a really niche interest. There are lots of people who really care about building robots and I think that we also just put people on screen and celebrated skills that hadn't really been celebrated before. And it turned out that there are loads of people and you, you know, you go outside still now and you see so many people who've got little building projects with their cars or in their drives or whatever it is. And I think that just is in Britain and elsewhere. I think that there's just a lot of people who have building because I do remember.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I remember. I don't know if you. I bet you wouldn't have this because you're too nice, but I was a bit snooty about Americans when we went to do Junkyard wars. So I did a few of. I can't even remember how it worked out, but I did some specials or something and I went, the Americans are all going to be. They want the right tools and they'll have to have them, you know, and they were. And I thought they'd be rubbish at it. It's a British thing. We can bodge things together. But they. What was it? Kluge. Kluge, Kluge, Kluge. Yeah, we can kluge. But they were amazingly good, hardworking, inventive, clever engineers. They were. We met extraordinary people there, didn't we?

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Amazing.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

And actually, I mean, I should mention this because you weren't in it. Robert, so obviously didn't succeed and come back for many series, but we. We did a show called Full Metal Challenge, which was like scrap people on steroids. And we had teams from 27 countries, I think, like from China, from Chile, from literally all over the world. And that made me realize it's not just a British thing, that actually probably there's a word for bodge in every language. Every single language.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But then, okay, let's leave scrappers there. It was a wonderful experience for all involved. But then before we get to that, then. So you carried on working in sort of television production for a bit after you stopped doing scrappy? I mean, when you did. Yes, you did other shows, but then I. Because I can't work out when you stopped doing telly.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

No, because I kind of stopped a couple of times. I think that's why. So I stopped first, I think, in 2005.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

And that was just. I don't know, maybe it was to do with scrap heap and Junkyard wars ending. And it was like. Then became the era of the infinitely replicable format show.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

The kind of wife swaps and those kind of things. And I wasn't such a fan of those. And I just felt like I've done, you know, I've had good time and then that's when my partner and I moved to Italy and had a Olive oil.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes. And you had children.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

You had children, had olives. I lived the dream. Did retirement for a few years. No, it wasn't retirement. It was kind of like trying to do a proper big change. Yeah, a massive change. But then I came back to telly.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I just Remember? Because actually, my wife Judy told me this morning. Didn't you meet Kathy in Rome? And I went, no. Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Oh, my gosh, we did.

[Robert Llewellyn]

You were living in Rome and I was filming a thing about religion in Rome.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And we had. We had a coffee.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Good memory, Judy.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes. I didn't. I'd not even thought about it.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Very good.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I don't know what you. I have no idea.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

That would have been about 2008, because child number two was born in.

[Robert Llewellyn]

In Rome. Really?

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Wow. Yeah, we were there for about a year.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Wow. Amazing. Yeah, amazing. Really? I don't know. It sounds so. You know, I lived in Gloucestershire. My children were born in Gloucestershire. Oh, both of them.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah, I know she quite likes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

One of our children was born in Rome. One was. I can't even remember.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

But then I came back to work in telly for various educated reasons. Yeah. So there was a sort of like double X.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Which is why it is quite complicated. And in that period of time. So that was when I just remembered.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Coming to the RDF offices much later in a Tesla Roadster sports car.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes. There you go. So that was probably in that.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Much later. That would have been 2007. 2008.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

8009.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Might have been 2000, because I think we did a scrappy 10th anniversary special. There was something around that time anyway. Yeah. And then I came back. But at that point the TV company had become part of a bigger thing, national thing. So I was working there then and there was a good thing which jumped onto a next chunk of my life, which was a series called the Secret Life of Four Year Olds, which I don't know, I hope in our great tradition. You never saw.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I remember it. I don't remember seeing it. Should we explain that? Because a lot of people think that. We'll assume. Not assume, but they might think, oh, Robert did that because Kathy's seen him on Red Dwarf. You'd never seen.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Never seen Red.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Never seen Red Dwarf. And then you might still never seen.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

It on telly, but I did.

[Robert Llewellyn]

You did come and see it in recording. But then also you were in a band for a long time, which I never saw and never heard. I think you. I think I've got a cd but never listened to it.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

And I got several of your books on the.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And you've never read them. Never touched. Yeah.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

It's weird because I feel like we are quite supportive of one another, but just not in that way.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Not in that way. But I've read this. Have you? Yes. Yeah.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

You've broken all the traditional.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I should have not looked at it, I should have looked at the camera. But then you did. And then I remember when you were at somewhere clever with brains.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah, well, so that was the connection. So the series, the secret life of 4 year olds was basically a developmental psychology series, sort of masquerading as a soap opera about toddlers. Yeah. And that got me really interested in the idea of sort of understanding more about brains and creativity.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I mean, we should mention that you did a bit of medical training pre scrapheap.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

I did, yeah. Did a little bit. I'm pretty good on upper arm. I did upper arm twice. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. Oh, my God.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But you're sort of. You were Dr. Ish. Is that fair to say?

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

It's the Dr. Ish, yeah, yeah. Dr. Adjacent.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Dr. Adjacent.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

But, yeah, I kind of. I think having realized for the second time, I've kind of done enough of the telly thing and I particularly want to do it more. I wasn't sure what to do, but I had a itch to scratch, which was going back to studying.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

So that's when I did my PhD. And the connection was with that show was the PhD was in the area of educational neuroscience.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

So it was studying, like, how. How do we do creativity? Like, what is that in terms of the brain? Like, what is the process?

[Robert Llewellyn]

So, which is kind of being highlighted in a wider thing now with AI, it's that thing of what is creativity? What is. Are we more unique than an incredibly complicated and intelligent.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Absolutely. And I think a lot of things that we thought were absolutely true, like, I think even with people that had quite high hopes for AI, they also had quite sort of like solid lines between what AI will be really good at and what it won't. And creativity was always kind of spared.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

It was like a special, unique human thing which actually, I think when you look at how it happens in terms of brain processes, you realize, yeah, there are some things which are sort of unusual about it compared to normal types of thinking, but there's nothing that means that it's going to be spared from things that AI can do. Sorry to say. I mean, you've seen that.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

And actually now I find that one thing that from ideas, meetings to any kind of creative thing that I've ever done, one thing that I've always relied on is someone in the room who is like the dripping tap of ideas.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Like someone who doesn't censor themselves, but who just doesn't mind throwing things out, because that's what I Like is then like finding, like, what are the little spots works and Chat gp. But you would feel bad about sort of slightly exploitative of a person. Whereas Chat GPT, I'm happy to say, like, give me a hundred dripping tap ideas about such and such a thing and then I'll use. Take those and, you know, use whatever is useful and chuck away the rest with no harm done.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Which is quite extraordinary and challenging. I know, because I haven't. I have. I haven't done that yet. I know it's there and I know it's coming, but I haven't used any. And I'm surprised because in a way, you know, in our history with each other, you have been the one who's trying. Have you? I find Twitter really useful. Have a look or all those things. Or I'm going to make a thing on. Put it on YouTube. You know, it was like, that was all that I was really.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

And that blooming Palm Pilot you made me get a PalmPilot where you had to learn these weird hieroglyphics to turn into normal letters. Yeah, yeah. So you were always the leader. So I'm surprised that you.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I don't know why yet. It hasn't. And our team. So the production team are using it. They go. They're sort of. They no longer use Google to search for things. They use Chat GPT.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

They look up things. That's how they find it.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And I just haven't. I know I will.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

I mean, you don't. I'm not like, you've got to use it. I just think more like. Especially for younger people, whenever there's a new bit of fairly transformative technology, there's a lot of fear around it and there's a lot of. Kind of like, oh, my God, you know, we can't have these essays. You know, they need. We need to tell them we've got a chatgpt sensor that will. But actually, my take is more we need to be teaching people to use it. Well, there's a lot of people who use it really badly and just cut and paste very robotic answers. But actually, I think once you become skilled at using it, it's another tool. Like a Google search is a skilled thing that we're much better at now than we were.

[Robert Llewellyn]

You don't have to open. Open a drawer and go through the little cards.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah. And it's the same with all those things. And you need to. Yeah, you need to kind of get educated.

[Robert Llewellyn]

So that's okay. So let's go to that. Because that's very much. It's such a beautifully simple idea which, which good ideas are always the beautiful simple ones. But it's basically what I took from it is, I think it was pitch slightly older than I think you. I thought. But that might be because I'm thick. Just going, I wouldn't have understood this when I was 8. But I mean, you know, it's, it's aimed at children.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Under the age of what, 14, kind.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Of 8 to 12 is, I think, what we say. So it's kind of like late primary school age group.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Okay.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

But yeah, you're right, there are some ideas in here, but it's quite high.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I mean, it's. You've got to be. You've got to be aware of things. But can you tell me what inspired that? Yes. And explain what it is?

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Well, so what it is is a book about the future that is based on science but is really optimistic.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

And I think when you say that to people, a lot of people are like, oh, hang on, if it's based on science, it can't be optimistic, but it can. And the reason that we wrote it was because we, we big. Me and my sister. So my sister's a illustrator. Designer.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Beautiful illustration.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

It looks amazing. Thanks to her. We felt, feel that there is just an incredible amount of negativity and doom in how we talk about the future. And by we, I often mean adults. Like you even did it just when we were chatting, like, I'm glad I'll be dead. It's like quite gloomy, but yeah, you often hear, I was at the dentist with one of my kids the other day and the dentist was like, well, I'm glad I won't be alive in 2017. We kind of talk in this way as if that's all right with kids. And that's like, what are they hearing from those conversations? And of course, they know a lot about the climate crisis and they know a lot about, you know, the loss of biodiversity and all of these things they hear about and they feel, or I think there's a danger that they feel that it's doom and all hope is lost. And I think that for me. So there's kind of like a connection with some of the neuroscience because actually from a position of what helps the brain.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Act in a good way. Fear mongering is really counterproductive as a. I don't think you hear do me messages or fear mongering and think I must really try and do something to overcome that. You feel helpless and you feel depressed.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And miserable, and you run withdrawal and.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Depressed and surprise, surprise. Rates of anxiety and depression in young people, higher than.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But also anger as well. I think you can. You know, that it can fire up anger. It's very easy.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Absolutely, absolutely. So we wanted to show that there are reasons for optimism based on the millions of fantastic people working all over the world to make the world a better place. And if we'd spare a bit of time to sort of just imagine where that could get us, if we all kind of, like, join the fight and if things go well, then that's really important because that's something that is really going to energize people and make them want to get to that place rather than hide or run or whatever they might feel like doing when it all feels desperate.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, but then there's. So what I didn't realize is that there is a character and I can't remember their name, who. Kit, who is in alive in 2070. Is that right? So they're looking back at their history. It's like us looking back to the First World War or the turn of the last.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Exactly, exactly. So we wanted to have a character who was kind of like the kids who will be reading it, but who's speaking to them from the future. So in each chapter, there's kind of like a little sort of cartoon story, basically, of Kit and her friends and just them getting up to their normal business. But in the course of them getting up to their normal business, they might like, you know, one example, they are learning about fossil fuels at school in the orgy, which is like the augmented reality area, where they. Instead of just sort of like learning from a dry textbook and writing, they experience things.

[Robert Llewellyn]

So they go in a coal mine.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

So they go in a coal mine and they experience what it's like to be in a coal mine. And they're completely amazed that we ever used to have these things because they don't know them because they're gone. So there's. It's kind of a device for doing that sort of thing and sometimes for doing kind of like little silly things. Like, there's a bit where they go vintage clothes shopping and one of them finds a football shirt from when England won the World cup in 2038. So we can like, sew little seeds of, like, things like that in. So, yeah, that's one part of the book and then another part, because what we didn't want to do was just say, oh, look, 2070, it's all fine. We've sorted out everything. The oceans are Clear. You know, we've come to a really good kind of middle ground with AI where we use it for good but not for that. We wanted to be more to articulate the journey more than that. So each chapter has timelines which take us from now in the night in the 2000s through to 2070 with like, yeah. Examples of things that could happen which might be, you know, big international policy decisions, or they might be small changes in local areas, but that all add up to show a sort of pathway for how we can get there. Yeah, so, yeah, so that was always a really important ingredient, I think, of the book. And it's also that they're quite dense. Like when you say it's. You could imagine it being for older groups because actually within one tiny little bit of one thing on a timeline.

[Robert Llewellyn]

There'S a massive conversation.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes, there's a conversation, but I mean.

[Robert Llewellyn]

That'S what it would be. Amazing. I mean, I'd love to, I want to try it. I'm trying to think of all our peers, kids, you know, they've either got grandchildren who are tiny or they've grown up. But I would love to sort of read it with a 10 year old and have that because I would think it would inspire conversations. I mean, that would be.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Well, so one thing we really are working on at the moment and talking to schools about is developing a schools program which is kind of Futures Club, which is just exactly this. It's like slightly reframing that thing about the future. So it's like not so. There's one thing that I think people do with, with kids when they're saying, oh, it's all doom and gloom and disaster is you're going to have to fix it.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

And we don't want to have that either because that's, that's not fair. But I think we do want to give them control in the sense of being able to think about and imagine what is the future that they would like to live in. What do they want, you know, when they're having children, what do they want the life of their 10 year old to be like.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

So that we, we're developing this program of activities that just gets them, asks them questions that they don't often get asked. Like, I think that children have such incredible ideas and when we allow them to think, which I think there's a whole sidebar here which is about our education system and I think problems with that because when we ask them those sort of questions, what you get back is just, it's amazing. And so when I was doing my PhD, I was looking at the creative process in children. That's what I was doing. And one thing I did is I got them to do drawings and paintings and different things, and I videoed them, and then we would play back the video after they'd finished, like, sort of like almost frame by frame, second by second, and they would talk me through what was going through their mind.

[Robert Llewellyn]

So they would watch it. They'd watch the video, we'd watch it.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Together, and they would. It was kind of like. I mean, I don't know if you ever found that in telly, but I always, like when we used to make documentaries, and sometimes you'd show it to people before it was going out so that they knew what was coming. And people would always be transported to a particular moment from seeing that footage. They'd know what was in their head. So it's kind of using that idea to get them to articulate, like, why was it then you kind of, like, were drawing a camel and then you started putting sweat on the camel. What was that about? And they'll tell you exactly why that. Why that was.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

And I think that what that made me realize is that there's loads of things that we just don't ask children. Like, we don't have the full range of conversation that we could and should have with them, because when you do. And I think that would be really true with the future, because we've just done it in a very little, kind of, like, piloty way. But the things that they think about and the ideas, they have inventions. I mean, sometimes they come up with things and we're like, yes, we got. We didn't steal their volumes. But, yeah, that's. That's our real hope, is that this is. I mean, it's just a book. There's millions of books. Who knows whether anyone will even buy it. But that our hope is that it starts a bigger conversation about thinking with the possibility of hope and optimism about the future.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But also, I think the important thing, which is, I think what we've both spent quite a lot of our lives doing is saying that the wood that's in that chair, that was cut down from a tree and it was taken to a factory and it was planed and milled and it was put glued together, and that glue came from this and that was used. You know, that what the world we live in didn't just happen.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And I can't. That's become my obsession in my latter years, is going, you know, all Every well is that. Someone said it to me a couple years ago and it's so obvious and I know, you know everything we use is either grown or dug up.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And I'd never really thought that before and I immediately tried to think of things. What about, what about honey? Well, it comes from stuff that's grown.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

You know, it's very silly.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

No, it's a notion.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But until you realize it you go, God, there's nothing in our lives. Everything in here was grown or dug up.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Which is quite a challenge.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Like to say that to a group of 10 year olds I think would be mind boggling.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I wish someone had done it when I was a kid because the world just became normal until. And actually for me it was through doing weird telly programs. So how do they do it?

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Go to an oil refinery. I never thought about that. And this is before I had anything to do with electric cars.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Filmed there for two days. Amazing engineering, amazing science, incredible skill of the people who do it. Phenomenal scale. And that, that's where pet. Oh, so there's that petrol doesn't come from a petrol pump. It comes from this vast, yeah. Toxic massive scale thing with ships that are the heaviest ships in the water that use the most fuel. I mean all those things, I just delivered them and an oil tank uses more fuel than any other ship on the ocean because it lies so low in the water, blah blah, blah, you know, all that stuff anyway.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

And I. But I think that thinking, understanding that the world is a series of processes I think can be quite overwhelming because you realize got to change this one little thing, you've actually got to somehow weave your way right back through that whole process. But I think it is also empowering in the sense that you understand the building blocks of what makes things and you can see where the kind of like the weak points might be or the points where you might want to intervene to change something.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Because I did love that about. I can't remember exactly but the kind of history of how fossil fuels were gradually eased out because I mean that the scale of that, of how we wean ourselves off the fuel that we've built, effectively built an entire world economy.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Totally.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes, quite a big thing. And I think you imagine a 10 year old or a 12 year old groking that if you like going oh God, yeah, everything.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

What about medicine? Yep, medicine. All plastics, all of that. I mean medical equipment. If you look in an intensive care thing, which I did in Australia last year, I was like, all of that is 90% of the stuff in this room is made by, from fossil fuels, including the drugs, including the actual, you know, the base materials that are in the pharmaceuticals.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

And again, I'd say it's kind of a two sided thing where you can think, oh my God, that's so overwhelming, there's so much to unpick. Or you can look at it. And what I like, I liked about kind of researching this and thinking on a slightly different level is if you think about the history of humans.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

You just see the fossil fuel period as an era. Like we did invent all of that. So of course we can uninvent it and we can invent something else and something better that can make us live better in so many different ways.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Next week, literally next week from when we're recording this, the last coal burning power plant will be closed down. It's just outside Nottingham. And that is, you know, when we met.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

We were 65% powered by coal.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Great fact.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And it's now zero.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

And we're still so young.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And as viewers will be able to tell as I throw back my thick dark locks, actually I did have hair when we met. I had proper hair.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

You did. I think you might. Do you have a little bit.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I don't think I didn't have a knowledge.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

I mean you should claim it now because you could been like 25 years.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I don't think I had a. But I might have had a bit of a quiff.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

But yeah, I find that really heartening in a way that we can make. And I think again looking at things on a slightly different time frame, like it's so like you listen to the news, of course you will get depressed like the news.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, well it's in a sense designed.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Designed, yeah, to upset us and. But when you look on a different scale you can see things like, my God, like change is possible. If you look back at how much change has happened, it makes you feel much more girded of the loins to think about the possibility of changing things for the future.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And I mean that's in a sense what the show, what this, you know, fully charged and all the rest of that is about is trying to find those positive, the sort of seeds of those positive stories. And we're constantly knocked back because we'll like for instance, we'll find a company that is making oh, that is brilliant, what a genius idea. And they go bankrupt.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, that's happened a lot. You know, it's really, really hard to get over that lip of actually becoming a Becoming a Tesla.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But it is happening, which is very encouraging. And I mean that is why the optimism in that kind of tied. As soon as you mentioned it to me. I really want to talk about that because that is. But the other one I really want to do is the space stuff, which I loved. Which in a sense is sort of the circular thing of my knowledge of you. You know, it started out with Apollo 13.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Oh yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I'm kind of.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Oh yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Totally unconnected. I'm sure I can make them one. But that stuff of, you know, it isn't next year that we land on the moon and have a city there or on Mars.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But it does still happen. But it takes. And those things take a long time. Ye, because that timeline I thought was great. I love that.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Oh did you. It's really interesting. So we had. My sister and I had big debates about the space chapter because I said we can't have a book about the future without having a space chapter. But she was like, but space feels like just full of billionaire boys and doesn't feel like something that is for everyone. And so in that chapter we tried to get something of a balance like in the whole kind of like techno optimist, where are you Thing. I think I am somewhere in the middle where I think that I don't think technology at all is going to solve all the problems. And there are much bigger problems of capitalism and justice and things. But I think within the space chapter what I wanted was when you see that footage of the first moon landings, the whole world watching their tails feeling like we as humanity have achieved this incredible thing. I really hope that we will be able to have that feeling again sometime. Like if we discover life on another planet, you know, like here we've got a little tardigrade, you know, like ugly bug, but like that, that sort of like re centering of humans in the universe should we've really failed as a species if we can't get excited about that. But in order to get excited about it, somehow space needs to be democratized. Like somehow we need to all benefit somehow from the. You know, what the exploration of space is doing. And I think in some small ways we have like there was. I think this was probably when we first like doing scraping things. But there was a project called, I think it was called Galaxy Zoo or something and it was a kind of like crowd science project where they would. It's before they had A.I. i guess that could do it. So real people could just go on a kind of NASA image bank and they had to classify different galaxies as, oh, wow, circular or something else. And it was like a mass thing. But it got loads of people involved in excitement about science. Seeing pictures from the Hubble telescope and things that you kind of get a little hint of excitement. But I think again on the news, what we hear is all about, you know, billionaire American tech people almost exclusively spending ludicrous amounts of money.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But I mean, what's annoying is because it's not just them. I mean, they facilitated it. But I mean, you know, the fact that they. That I don't even want to mention his name and I'm not going to, but the fact that there has been a rocket that went up and then it came back down. I mean, for the first 10, they all exploded and crashed.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But then eventually they didn't. And you cannot sort of not notice that. But then you also. What is not acknowledged, because that's what annoys me so much, is the brilliant engineers and scientists who we would have met, you know, two of them would have worked on Scrappy, who made that work. It wasn't one man.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah, I know.

[Robert Llewellyn]

So annoying.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

It is so annoying. It is so annoying because they only get.

[Robert Llewellyn]

You could argue that what he did do was find them and get them to work on it. You could maybe hand him that. That's all he did.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

You know, anyway, I don't want to talk about him. But.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

But you're absolutely right. And when you see their joy, like in those little snapshots when the two.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Rockets came back down and landed was extraordinary. Absolutely. But then the, because of the way that sort of usurped, in a way, NASA, you know, NASA was kind of.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

The coolest thing. And if you worked at NASA, you were a genius and it was brilliant. And then. Which, you know, but incredibly expensive way of getting into space and suddenly someone does it cheaper and then you go, oh, that's.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Capitalism is, I find really annoying because occasionally it works really well.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And then quite a lot of time it doesn't. And it's incredibly brutal. And I mean, you know, there was, I haven't seen it yet, but there is a clip of American left wing politician, old grumpy Bernie, Bernie Sanders talking to Bill Gates. You know, there's three billionaires in the world and you're one of them. Why have you got all the money? Is that right? Is this good? Is this, does that help build a good society? I don't think so.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Did Bill have a good answer?

[Robert Llewellyn]

I haven't seen the rest of it. There's Just a clip. Yeah, but that you did. Yeah. Because that was a. The one I loved. I just want to mention that is the centenary of the moon landing in 2069, which I thought that's. I love that idea.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes. Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

There was a. There's a science fiction book I've read set on the moon, a detective series set on the moon. And the big moon base is built around where the Apollo lander still is. And it was like. It's like a historical site and tourists go up and they can drive, but you can't walk near there because you don't want to mess up the first footprint. And they're all still there.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I don't remember whose book.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

I did read a bit of science fiction, actually. And I mean, mainly with this. We mainly just talk to scientists, but I did read a bit of science fiction and it. Science fiction is incredible.

[Robert Llewellyn]

It's very clever.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

It's clever and there's the kind of clever. Oh, my God. They just foresaw so much. And then there's quite. There's a brilliant book by Marge Pearcey called Woman on the Edge of Time.

[Robert Llewellyn]

On the Edge of Time, yes. Oh, my God, yes. But I had really a lot of hair.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

It's amazing. It's really old. Like, it's probably in the 60s or 70s.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Marge. Pity. God, I haven't even heard that name for decades.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

I don't know. And I've not read anything else by her.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But it's Woman on the Edge of Time.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

It's a very unobvious, positive view of the future.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

So it's written from the perspective of a poor American woman, now, who kind of goes through a portal to the future. It's. It's kind of a feminist utopia, if you like. That's her particular thing. But there's lots of other things that have been fixed in the future and it's really super interesting. I really. Yeah. Read that book. We won't read each other's books. Except you did read this.

[Robert Llewellyn]

But do. Yes, Martin. I'm just checking time. But we're good. But I want to make sure. I want to. Well, I mean, I'll plug it and I just want. I want people to check it out because it is. It is really good. And particularly, I mean, a lot of. I'm sure a lot of people who watch and listen to this have children.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And if you've got kids. I'm just saying, if you've got kids between 8 and 12.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Future vision stories of Our Brilliant Tomorrow. Yeah. I mean, I Think when we've talked about it with parents and teachers.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And those are two things I want to ask is the scientist you spoke to. But also, let's do that now. We're on it like parents and kids. So you've had some feedback from parents and children.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

I just mean in terms of kind of everyday conversations with, with people and, but actually also from the scientists. So I would cold call side. I'd like email, like really high up professors of this. And the title of the email would say Optimistic Children's book about the Future. And without exception, there was no one who said they didn't want to be interviewed, which you never like. Even in telly, when telly is such a great calling card, you never know. And nearly everybody said, thank God that there is some stuff that is hopeful and optimistic about the future because we're desperately in need of it. But of course, all the people who are doing the work don't have time to talk about that. So I had amazing conversations with scientists and, and with parents and teachers just saying we need, we need basically tools to help buoy up the children and young people about, like, where things could go.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

And.

[Robert Llewellyn]

And we need a lot of engineers and scientists for the next 100 years.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah. I mean, if you look at a lot of the points on the timeline, they are, you know, about things getting invented and things getting built and things getting created. And yes, we, we really do. And there's. Yeah, there's a million brilliant jobs out there for.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I mean, I think, because that's the one joy that I've had from doing fully charged is that I've managed to sort of keep doing that aspect of it, which we did in scrappy. We would get, we would interview people, wouldn't we? And get in the background of how does this thing work? Oh, let's talk to someone in the industry that makes them work, which is always a great thing. And that's been. Generally, they are bizarrely the most optimistic. You know, the people who are actually dealing with battery chemistry, that's really complicated. And the last four ones, they had all blurred. My favorite one of all was amazing professor at Oxford who had made a battery that had at the time, 10 times the energy density of the best battery of that era. And I went, oh, that's amazing. Can we see it? And he went, well, no, because there was a black burn mark on the bench. That was it there. Because they make, they make them in watch batteries so that when they explode they don't kill anyone, you know, but, you know His. But he wasn't going, oh, it just didn't work. He was really excited. Look at the size of that burn mark.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Absolutely. Because the. I mean, that's another thing, another sort of like bugbear of mine is that in terms of the process of science, like, we never really see that.

[Robert Llewellyn]

No.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Because it's never on telly. It's not in.

[Robert Llewellyn]

It's not even in a movie where the protagonist is always an ex CIA operative who's gone.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Why can't he be an ex battery engineer?

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah. But I think it's hard to document because it happens over a really long period of time. So that guy with the burn mark, he'd probably been working on that for, oh, for decades. Decades. And so that was an incredible, incredible try. Like, what better reason for optimism? But you only understand that in the context of the work that's been done. And I think that's what this is in a way. What we're trying to say with the book is there's loads of work that has already been done, which if we keep doing it and accelerating, it has got the potential to turn into amazing things. Because you're right, like the site, the. I mean, it's not like everyone manages to see the optimism, but there is more optimism than you might think from just, you know, going around everyday life.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Well, also, I think importantly for people who are directly confronting mineral extraction, refining stuff, big transportation, electric trains, electric car. You know, the people are actually there going, this isn't working, but we can do this. They're not depressed.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

People who have. No. Don't know how any of it works. Oh, it's all awful. It doesn't work. So, yeah, they're depressed.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Well, hang on, just right there.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Look over here. Yeah. Yeah. There was an interesting thing in. I spend a lot of time on our world in data.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

As I'm sure you do.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I have been known to waste three days solidly. I must go to bed and I need to go to the loo.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yeah. Marge Piercy in our world of data. But they had a sort of. They were looking at pessimism and optimism around the world.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Right.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

And the most pessimism is really in the places where there's least cause for it.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Because we. I think we have the feeling, we in the sort of privileged Western world, of having had the experience in the past of thinking the world's going to keep getting better and better and better, whereas actually the feeling that the world is changing for the better is a new thought for a lot of People living in a lot of places.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Well, I mean, if you were, if you were a man my age in China, you would have lived through the most extraordinary change. You would have been so poor when you were up to 25, 30 and working on a commune farm and you would have had such a tough life and now you could be a millionaire living in a fantastic apartment in Shanghai. I mean, it might. I'm not saying that I'm necessarily good or happy, but your life would have been transformed. I mean, the amount of people pulled out of poverty in China is in the billions. And that is mind boggling.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Yes.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I mean, then there's massive problems associated with that. But yes, that has changed in our lifetimes. You know, when I met some Chinese people recently that no longer live in China and are happy to talk about it, but it was, you know, going through the Cultural revolution when you're 22 was not easy.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Whereas I think for us we had like. I mean, it's hard to tell what is to do with a particular time and what's to do with your age at that particular time. But if I think back to the 80s and 90s in particular, it just felt like such a hopeful, optimistic time where anything could happen. Here.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Berlin Wall came down, the end of the Cold War, blah, blah, blah.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Exactly. It felt like there were lots of things moving in a positive direction. So we compared to that, we're like, oh, no, but now everything's awful. But actually not everything is awful.

[Robert Llewellyn]

No, no, a lot of things are hugely better, aren't they? Well, look, I'll just show something called Future Vision. Get a close up in a moment and it is brilliant. And it is written by Dr. Kathy Rogers.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

I know, bit wanker.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I said doctor. Ish. Proper doctor doctor and lovely Madeleine Rogers.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

No, that's not proper doctor. I don't. I think of a proper doctor as someone who can actually fix things. That's just Dr. Dr. Brain.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Well, still. It says.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

It says it. It is true, yeah.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Madeleine's. Well, is she? I do remember her very fondly, yes.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

She's amazing.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Beautiful illustrations. I mean, they really are because they're very. They're very clear and not. But not fancy. They're really simple and you understand them immediately. You look at them so very nice.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Well, also the thing that we really wanted, apart from, well, amongst lots of other things, is if you think about, if you picture a children's book about the future, probably what you picture is something that's very silver and quite streamlined, you know, like quadratic straight lines. Whereas we wanted a book about the future that kind of is green and, you know, has pages, lots of flowers and. Exactly. That looks like this. Like there's not. It's not tech overload. It's actually as much.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. I think it's very important to say we. I've picked up on my nerdy interests of space and energy and things. There's loads of stuff about biodiversity, about the oceans, which I then thought is that Jason might have had a word.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Well, they're quite a big part of the world as well.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yes.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

But, yeah, no, it's as much about nature as it is about technology, I would say.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Yeah. I think we should leave it there because we're going to go and have lunch.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

We're going to have lunch.

[Robert Llewellyn]

I just want to thank you so much, Kathy. Well, I want to thank you for doing this with me, but also thank you for being who you are and doing amazingly positive stuff for the world. It's been. And it's a real joy knowing you. Thank you very much.

[Dr. Kathy Rogers]

Thank you.

[Robert Llewellyn]

Really hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. We'll be back next week with more guests and different things, but what an absolute joy to talk to Cathy. She is really inspirational, so I want to thank her very much. And that's all. As always, if you have been. Thank you for listening.